Encore Pushing Back On Patriarchal Narratives with Elise Loehnen

Description: In this episode of the Matriarchy series, we explore how deeply ingrained patriarchal narratives can create a policing effect on the behavior of women.  Author, Elise Loehnen, discusses her book "On Our Best Behavior" which examines how concepts like the seven deadly sins have historically been used to restrict women's behavior and police their adherence to an idealized form of "goodness." Loehnen unpacks the insidious ways women are culturally conditioned from a young age to suppress normal human drives like anger, ambition, and sexuality. And how disrupting rigid gender stereotypes is important when raising the next generation in order to build a more compassionate world.  … Thought-provoking Quotes: ★ “Women are trained for goodness; men are trained for power.” – Elise Loehnen ★ “Patriarchy isn’t just out there in systems and structures — it’s in us. It’s the air we breathe.” – Elise Loehnen ★ “A ‘good woman’ never needs anything. She has no wants, no anger, no appetite. She exists to meet everyone else’s needs — and calls it virtue.” – Elise Loehnen ★ “We are so conditioned to police ourselves that we end up policing each other.” – Elise Loehnen ★ “I hold everything I think with loose hands. This is what I know now. But I’m open to the me who might think differently later.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: ➤ On Our Best Behavior by Elise Loehnen - https://bit.ly/44tz41D ➤ Goop - https://goop.com ➤ For the Love of Being Seen and Heard ft. Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/4b8YT9C ➤ Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/3JO7FOn ➤ Evagrius Ponticus (Fourth Century Christian Monk) - https://bit.ly/4b7zEV5 ➤ Pope Gregory on the 7 Deadly Sins - https://bit.ly/3y1J1XK ➤ Harvey Weinstein Abuse Cases -  https://bit.ly/4b5ktM5 ➤ Carol Gilligan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_G... ➤ In a Different Voice by Carol Gilligan - https://bit.ly/3JQ9IBh   ➤ Human Voice by Carol Gilligan - https://bit.ly/3UQ1Rcn ➤ Andrew Tate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_... ➤ Order, Disorder, Reorder (An idea Developed by Richard Rohr) - https://bit.ly/44xzHqK ➤ For the Love of The Enneagram ft. Richard Rohr - https://bit.ly/3QzzZaW ➤ Loretta Ross - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loretta... Guest’s Links: ➤ Website: https://www.eliseloehnen.com/ ➤ Facebook:   / eliseloehnen   ➤ Instagram:   / eliseloehnen   ➤ Twitter:   / eloehnen   ➤ LinkedIn:   / elise-loehnen-b867523   ➤ Podcast: https://www.eliseloehnen.com/episodes ➤ Blog: https://eliseloehnen.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: If you have ever lost your cool with your kids and then felt the crushing wave of guilt that comes sweeping in after—this episode is for you. This week, Jen and Amy sit down with psychotherapist and emotions educator Hilary Jacobs Hendel, author of ‘It’s Not Always Depression’ and the new book ‘Parents Have Feelings, Too’, to talk about what happens when we stop ignoring our own emotions and start bringing more calm, curiosity, and compassion into our families. Hilary shares her groundbreaking Change Triangle model—a simple but powerful tool that helps us move from anxiety, shame, and reactivity to understanding what’s really underneath: our core emotions like anger, sadness, fear, and joy. Together, they unpack: How to break cycles we inherited from our own parents What “open-hearted parenting” looks like in real life How to repair when we’ve said or done something we regret And why healing our emotions may be the greatest legacy we give our kids It’s a conversation full of science, self-compassion, and deep sighs of relief—a reminder that parents have feelings too, and that tending to them isn’t selfish; it’s sacred work. Whether you’re parenting toddlers, teens, or even adult children, there is something to serve you in this episode and it’s a great one to share with a friend. Thought-provoking Quotes: “It's always possible for relationships and the brain to change, and they happen hand in hand, so it is never too late.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel “What I needed to do was slow everything down and get curious. Get to know this kid, say, ‘tell me a little bit more about what's going on.’ Question my own values and the ways I thought it was going to be, all these fantasies that I came in with at the expense of my kid when I thought I was helping.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel “Self-awareness is an investment that comes back in dividends and capital gains beyond anything that we can imagine. And it's so much more relaxing to parent this way.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel “I can shout from the rooftops that emotions education is important, just like reading and math is important. In high school biology we learn we have a heart, lungs, and pancreas, but emotions affect us far worse. Every single day of our lives. You'd think somebody would want to pay attention to teaching us a little bit about them.”– Hilary Jacobs Hendel Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Parents Have Feelings, Too: A Guide to Navigating Your Emotions So You And Your Family Can Thrive by Hilary Jacobs Hendel and Juli Fraga - https://amzn.to/4h3wtlf For The Love Of Reconnecting Episode 03: Making Good Use of Our Emotions: Hilary Jacobs Hendel - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-32/making-good-use-of-our-emotions-hilary-jacobs-hendel/ It's Not Always Depression: Working the Change Triangle to Listen to the Body, Discover Core Emotions, and Connect to Your Authentic Self by Hilary Jacobs Hendel - https://amzn.to/3L3an6f The Change Triangle - https://www.hilaryjacobshendel.com/whats-the-change-triangle Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4nCb9pi Simple Habit meditation app - https://www.simplehabit.com/ The Change Triangle YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/thechangetriangle/videos Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.hilaryjacobshendel.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/hilaryjacobshendel/ Twitter - https://x.com/HilaryJHendel Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AuthorHilaryJacobsHendel Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/thechangetriangle/videos Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: In this moving episode, listeners share their own tender and personal stories inspired by Jen's bestselling book, "Awake," which debuted at number three on the New York Times bestseller list. The touching and heartrending voicemails coming in from readers of “Awake” highlight our yearning to build our lives on solid foundations, our propensity to reach for community and friendship, and the shared human experience we feel around suffering and pain. In this deeply emotional episode, listeners recount overcoming stories of adversity and finding hope, often describing "Awake" as a "life raft" during their own challenging times and Jen gets to hear the profound impact that “Awake” is having on readers everywhere. Tune in for an inspiring journey through the voices of those touched by "Awake." Thought-provoking Quotes: “These listener voicemail episodes are so resonant. I love them. Y'all always say the truest, most beautiful, hardest things. Honestly, I'm always grateful for your courage to come on this show and say your thing out loud.” – Jen Hatmaker “I didn’t know Jen was about to curl up in my cave and hold me close. I didn’t know her story, which I expected to be irrelevant to mine, would tell me that I am okay, normal, and I won’t stay this way.” – Anonymous reader/listener “The best teachers don’t tell, they show. Although you say this book is not prescriptive and you’re not telling us what to do, you’ve shown us how to live a life and get through hard things with integrity, honesty, discretion, and strength. You’ve shown us how to take responsibility and ownership of our own shit. Your friends have shown us how to show up fully and unconditionally. Beautiful examples of love and friendship. Your family has shown us how to be there as an unwavering and loving presence to get through their hardest things.” Reader/listener, Denise “My life broke apart too and thankfully I had friendships to fall back on. It wasn’t a thing where I was grateful in hindsight. I was able to be grateful for it in the moment, which is not typically how stories unfold.” – Anonymous reader/listener Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3KDAalt 107 Days by Kamala Harris - https://amzn.to/47aZ6tb Poems & Prayers by Matthew McConaughey - https://amzn.to/473gy1Q Fierce, Free and Full of Fire: The Guide to Being Glorious You by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/48jrtXg Emily P. Freeman Podcast episode 374: Tell the Whole Truth with Jen Hatmaker - https://emilypfreeman.com/podcast/374/ For the Love Podcast: A Lantern for Others in Dark Spaces: Jen Hatmaker on Sharing Her Most Tender Story - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/a-lantern-for-others-in-dark-spaces-jen-hatmaker-on-sharing-her-most-tender-story/ 7: An Experimental Mutiny Against Excess by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4mTSzrM Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Sometimes you  read a book that just wrecks you in the best possible way — the kind of story that stays in your bones long after you close the last page. Go As A River is exactly that kind of book. It is a lyrical and haunting coming-of-age novel set amid the rugged beauty of Colorado’s Western Slope in the late 1940s through the mid-20th century. Inspired by true events—the disappearance of the small ranching town of Iola beneath the Blue Mesa Reservoir—Shelley Read crafts a story that is both intimately personal and richly symbolic.  Shelley is a fifth-generation Coloradan who has spent her life in the Gunnison Valley, and you can feel that connection to the land in every line of this novel. Shelley has spent decades teaching writing and literature, but with this debut (now an international bestseller) she’s given us something timeless — a story about love, loss, and the courage to keep moving forward like the river itself. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I deeply value the long journey to becoming ourselves, especially as women, and the complexities of that journey.” – Shelley Read “I think,so often, young people are boxed in and alienated from the very beginning to who their true self is and what their true journey is. And, I thought [as a teacher] that I could save these young people a whole lot of pain going forward and just help them discover who they are now, to follow their most authentic selves.” – Shelley Read “I'm not so sure that I set out to actively reclaim my creativity and my writerly self as much as Victoria Nash, bless her heart, the main character of my novel. She came to me in whatever magical way. I didn't go seeking her. She came and claimed me in some way and she is who turned me back to my writing life because she came to me with such power and such insistence that I had to write her story whether I had time to do it or not. Little by little by little I started accepting this journey of coming back to my writerly self.” – Shelley Read “I think the more generous we can be as writers with process and allowing the story to unfold over time, in the most authentic way, then we really get into the story that we really need to be telling.” – Shelley Read I had to turn the story and the journey in this novel toward hope. I had to. Because ultimately, this deep well of strength and resilience and this ability to bear the seemingly unbearable that all of us carry. Hope is what's going to drive us to rise each time, and to continue to rise.” – Shelley Read Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Go as a River: A Novel by Shelley Read - https://amzn.to/4lIly0Y Film Rights to Shelley Read’s Global Bestseller ‘Go as a River’ Head to Fifth Season, Mazur Kaplan - https://variety.com/2023/film/news/go-as-a-river-movie-shelley-read-book-1235667430 The River’s Daughter by Bridget Crocker - https://amzn.to/3Jy78mE Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/4n3WpPy Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.shelleyread.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shelleyread.author Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/shelley.read.50 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Sometimes the deepest growth comes from the hardest seasons. An untreatable diagnosis, a painful divorce, the loss of hard-earned savings—when life tears apart the script we imagined for ourselves, we’re left to wrestle with who we are, what we value, and how to begin again. In this special encore episode, poet and bestselling author Maggie Smith joins Jen for a tender, hopeful conversation about finding light in the aftermath of loss. Jen shares how she first discovered Maggie’s work (spoiler: Shauna Niequist played matchmaker), and together they swap stories of navigating divorce, rediscovering hope, and daring to rebuild. Maggie opens up about the unexpected end of her marriage, the daily pep talks she wrote just to survive, and how those words became lifelines for thousands of others. Along the way, she reminds us that even when our script gets flipped, we can trust “future us,” make peace with uncertainty, and emerge stronger, more grounded, and ready for what comes next. If you’ve ever felt adrift in the dark or questioned your worth in the wake of loss, this encore episode will remind you that you are loved, worthy, and capable of carrying on—step by step, word by word. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Growth unfortunately often comes from the most uncomfortable or painful parts of life. I don’t want this to be true, and yet here we are.” – Jen Hatmaker “My marriage ended… and part of what helped me stay anchored was writing. I was in too much pain to really write poems, so I started writing myself a little pep talk every day. What I found was that all these other people started sharing them… and that sense of purpose, and that sense of shared community, at a time when I felt completely alone, was everything.” – Maggie Smith “Hope is imaginative—it allows you to envision what might be up ahead even when you see nothing.” – Jen Hatmaker “I was lost at sea, adrift in the dark, but even one small light on the horizon showed me I was still on the right path.” – Jen Hatmaker “I’ve built up a tolerance to ambiguity. Ten years ago, it would’ve undone me. Now, it’s a skill I’m grateful for.” – Maggie Smith “We didn’t choose this. The script was flipped for us. But what we do with it—that belongs to us.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Shauna Niequist - https://www.shaunaniequist.com/ Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/41YsuAb Good Bones: Poems by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/469P6jA Goldenrod: Poems by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/3Iwh7ZB You Could Make This Place Beautiful: A Memoir by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/46r9CuZ Guest’s Links: Website - https://maggiesmithpoet.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/maggiesmithpoet/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: The day has finally arrived—Awake is officially out in the world. In this episode, Jen Hatmaker opens up about a story she's held tightly for years, a story she's finally ready to share. Jen takes us behind the scenes of writing Awake—a memoir told in vivid vignettes and written in real-time, as if each scene was recounted the very day it happened. The book is broken into three parts: The End, The Middle, and The Beginning, tracking Jen’s own process of healing and awakening to a number of realizations and truths. Jen walks us down that path of recovery while honoring the many women who held up lanterns along the way and gave her the courage to keep going. She reflects on the process of confronting the deep-rooted systems of patriarchy, purity culture, body shame, and the shaky foundation that once defined her marriage. This book isn’t just about the patterns, behaviors, codependency, and attachment wounds that shaped Jen’s story—it’s also about the joy of stepping into a new beginning. And most of all, it’s about you. Because it was your presence, your listening, and your courage that made her brave enough to tell it. Now, it’s yours. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I was in the pitch black, dark night of the soul. Everything was so shrouded in grief and loss and fear but I could see all these little lanterns from my community going, ‘Keep going. We're here. We're with you.’ I'll never get over that as long as I live.” – Jen Hatmaker “Awake is the lantern I am holding up.for women everywhere who need someone else to tell them, ‘Keep going. You're not alone. I understand your feelings. I understand your fear. I understand your trauma. Maybe also a teeny bit, I understand your future. I understand what you are capable of. What is possible for you. I understand your resiliency. I understand that no matter what you have lost, what has changed, what has shifted, no matter how brokenhearted you are, I still believe some of your best days are ahead of you.’” – Jen Hatmaker “I can trust you, the reader, to do what you need to do with the information. I can trust you to take exactly what you need out of each and every moment, memory, everything, and to alchemize that into your own life, into your own story. I don't have to tell you what to do with it. I don't have to tell you what to think about it. I don't have to tell you how to process it.” – Jen Hatmaker “The fits this book gave me, trying to write in real time! You know, writing an eighth grade memory took me a third of the book to finally get the tense of all my verbs right. I kept writing it in the past tense because it's in the past. The amount of times I had to comb back through and change all the verb tenses to present instead of past was every single paragraph.” – Jen Hatmaker “If I'm gonna tell the story, then let's tell the story. Not like the shinier version of it or the less humiliating version of it or the one that would never indict me, only my partner. There's no integrity in that.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4pduwXb Bumble – https://bumble.com/en-us/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, we're joined by Emmy Award–winning journalist and fierce midlife advocate, Tamsen Fadal, who has become a trusted voice for women navigating the complex — and often misunderstood — journey of menopause. Through her work and her new book, How to Menopause: The Essential Roadmap to Resilience and Empowerment in Midlife and Beyond, Tamsen is on a mission to rewrite the narrative around aging, helping women feel seen, supported, and empowered. Her book is packed with practical tools, honest storytelling, and a powerful message: this phase of life isn’t something to endure — it’s an opportunity to reinvent, reconnect, and rise. From demanding better healthcare to breaking the silence in the workplace, Tamsen is helping women turn midlife into a movement. In today’s enlightening conversation, we unpack: Whether you’re in the thick of it or just beginning to notice the shifts, this episode will leave you informed, inspired, and ready to take action. Share this episode with a woman you care about! Thought-provoking Quotes:   Resources Mentioned in This Episode:   Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.tamsenfadal.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tamsenfadal/ Twitter - https://x.com/TamsenFadal Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/tamsenfadal/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tamsenfadal Substack - https://tamsenfadal.substack.com/ Podcast - https://www.tamsenfadal.com/the-tamsen-show-podcast   Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker   The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.              ● The biggest myths about menopause we need to bust● How to become your own best advocate in the doctor’s office● Why midlife isn’t an ending — it’s a beginning★ “The truth is there are a lot of doctors who, through no fault of their own,  are not informed about menopause. Doctors don't go into this profession not wanting to help, but unfortunately a lot of them, by their own admission, were not trained in medical school. And I think we've got to do something about that one.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “Women are thriving. They're bolder, smarter, wiser, they’re more open about their lives, healthier in a lot of ways, they’re in relationships that they want to be in versus relationships that they felt like they had to be in.  I look at this as a celebration in some ways.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “I really think that we have to start looking at this stage of life in a different way.  Women could celebrate this time in life, what I've been calling the bolden years instead of the golden years, instead of dreading these years.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “If you're dealing with the symptoms of perimenopause and you don't know what's going on, it can be so stressful. You're having heart problems. You feel like you're going crazy. You can't sleep, and now you can't function at work. I wanted women to be able to know what to do. It’s a chaotic time that can feel confusing unless we simplify it.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “It is so nice to feel normal at this stage of life. It is just such a relief to realize not only how many of us there are, but how many solutions exist. We are not helpless and this is not inevitable. Menopause is, but the suffering isn’t.” – Jen Hatmaker➢ How to Menopause: Take Charge of Your Health, Reclaim Your Life, and Feel Even Better than Before by Tamsen Fadal – https://amzn.to/4mIbMx5➢ The M Factor: Shredding the Silence About Menopause – https://themfactorfilm.com/➢ Midi Health - https://www.joinmidi.com/➢ The Men’s Guide to Understanding Menopause – https://www.tamsenfadal.com/mens-guide-to-understanding-menopause To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Have you ever found yourself at odds with someone you deeply care about—unable to agree on something that really matters? Is it possible to stay connected, even when your beliefs clash? This seemed like an important question to answer, so we decided to go back into our archives to bring forward this 2021 conversation about one of the most challenging forms of reconnection: loving and staying in relationship with people who see the world differently. To help us navigate this complex emotional landscape, we're joined by Rozella Haydée White—also known as the Love Big Coach. A theologian, spiritual life coach, and leadership consultant, Rozella is passionate about helping people cultivate love that is both healing and justice-rooted. In this encore episode,  Rozella and Jen explore how to show up in hard conversations without losing yourself, and how to make space for compassion when disagreement feels like a wall. Rozella offers this powerful reminder: “If we believe that people are created in the image of God, then I don't really have a choice but to believe in people.” This conversation unpacks:  What it means to stay in a relationship when we do not see eye to eye How we keep loving family and friends when our values don’t align anymore What do we do with our fractured families without creating havoc and disruption How we can hold two things that are true at once Thought-provoking Quotes: “If we believe that people are created in the image of God, then I don't really have a choice but to believe in people, because I don't believe that God creates anything but that which is life-giving, that which is creative, that which is good and holy.” – Rozella Haydée White “When I talk about love, I'm talking about that which is creative, that which is justice-seeking, and that which is ultimately sustaining for our mind, heart, bodies, and soul.” – Rozella Haydée White “Love does not mean absence of consequence or absence of conflict.” – Rozella Haydée White Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Love Big Coach - https://www.rozellahwhite.com/ A Rhythm of Prayer: A Collection of Meditations for Renewal by Sarah Bessey - https://amzn.to/466mtT3 Glennon Doyle’s For The Love Episode - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-02/finding-beauty-in-the-mess-with-glennon-doyle/ Brené Brown’s For The Love Episode - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-02/getting-vulnerable-with-dr-brene-brown/ Love Big: The Power of Revolutionary Relationships to Heal the World by Rozella Haydée White - https://amzn.to/3Vrm6Oh Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.rozellahwhite.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lovebigcoach/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/lovebigcoach Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@lovebigcoach TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@lovebigcoach Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: As a luminary in contemporary literature, Elizabeth Gilbert’s writing has shaped the zeitgeist through adventure, spiritual exploration, creativity, and what it means to live a life of integrity. Her work consistently resonates with a global audience, prompting introspection and inspiring personal journeys of self-discovery. In this episode, Elizabeth Gilbert delves into the intricate narratives woven within her latest book, All the Way to the River: Love, Loss, and Liberation.  Liz traces the evolving nature of her bond with Rayya Elias, illustrating how the relationship transitioned from a cherished best friend to a trusted neighbor, then blossomed into a profound creative muse, and ultimately became a romantic partner—her "person."  This deeply significant relationship unfolded against the harrowing backdrop of Rayya’s terminal pancreatic cancer diagnosis and her courageous, yet often arduous, battle with addiction.  In a conversation full of heart and unabashed vulnerability, Liz reflects on her own struggles with people-pleasing, addiction, and finding emotional and spiritual sobriety, discussing what it looks like to take accountability for one's own well-being to write a life story that ends with dignity. Thought-provoking Quotes: “If you're very lucky, you might just meet one person in your life who you can go all the way to the river with.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “There's not a jury in the world who wouldn’t have agreed that I had every right to see myself as a victim in that story but I still didn't see my role in the insanity. It took me years of grieving and anger and processing to see it.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “There is no such thing as a relationship between an incredibly healthy person and an incredibly dysfunctional person. There's an incredibly dysfunctional person and a person who is very far from themselves engaging in that relationship with that incredibly dysfunctional person.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “I’ve used people as though they are drugs, to shore up my incredibly gaping insecurity wound. So I'm going to either use someone as a sedative, somebody who makes me feel really safe, or I'm going to go find somebody to use as a speed ball of excitement and danger, somebody who's very bad for me. I would just try to find the person who could make my levels feel right.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “Like many humans, I am extremely faulty at knowing what's going to make me happy.. I anticipate that something will make me happy and it almost kills me.” – Elizabeth Gilbert Emotional sobriety, for me, is taking complete accountability for my own nervous system and not ever accusing anybody of disrupting it. A simple thing that I've learned to say is not ‘You need to stop behaving the way that you're behaving’, but ‘I love you and I need to go.’” – Elizabeth Gilbert To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today’s episode is an absolute treat. Catherine Newman, the beloved author of both fiction and nonfiction writing, known for her sharp wit, emotional resonance, and profound insights into everyday life, sits down with Jen to talk about our August JHBC selection, Sandwich, which quickly gained national attention for its honest, tender, and hilarious reflection on real life in the messy middle years.  In this discussion that feels like a conversation between lifelong friends, Jen and Catherine delve into the unique challenges faced by the Sandwich Generation.  Catherine writes so beautifully about the ache of watching our kids become adults—still ours, but not really, meanwhile exploring what it looks like to engage in the caretaking and slow grief of watching our parents age. And with hilarious candor, she peels back the curtain of what it’s like to endure all of this in the throes of menopause.  It’s a book that feels like it crawled inside our minds, hearts, and lives.  Catherine also gives glimpses into how many of the characters and storylines were inspired by real life experiences, which is perhaps why it tugs so tenderly on our heartstrings and strikes such a raw and honest chord with its readers. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I became like a total writing-for-money whore. I couldn't believe you could write for money. It was so intoxicating to me and I started writing everything I could if they would pay me for it and I did this until last year. And it didn't really matter what they would pay me for it. And I wrote everybody's alumni magazines. I wrote advertorial copy for websites. I wrote the etiquette column for Real Simple Magazine for 10 years, like a billion different things. And here I am.”  – Catherine Newman “Talk about ‘sandwich’. I'm the filling that's slowly extracting itself. I'm like the bologna creeping out the back door while the sandwich takes care of itself. An incredible system.” – Catherine Newman “How did I not know this stuff? I thought menopause really was the cessation of your period. Like it was a train you got on when you were 12 and then you just stepped off of it when you were 50. Not that you stepped off this train and entered this hellscape.” – Catherine Newman “I stopped reading the Goodreads reviews for Sandwich — somebody did call the book ‘grinding and plotless’. It was a three-word review and I loved it so much, like this is the slow drip of shame and hubris for me…. I want that on my tombstone ‘grinding and plotless’, like ‘tell me about it, you only had to read about it, this is my actual life.’” – Catherine Newman To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices