Technology Rich, Politically Poor: How 2025 Reshaped The Energy Transition | Ep238: Adair Turner

What happens when clean energy starts to outgrow fossil fuels at scale? Is it right to call China an electrostate? And how long will we be reliant on hydrocarbons?This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Lord Browne of Madingley — former CEO of BP and one of the earliest voices inside Big Oil to publicly call for emissions reductions from fossil fuels.  Recorded in front of a live audience in London, the discussion explores how geopolitics, energy security, AI, and rising global anxiety are reshaping the path to decarbonisation. Lord Browne reflects on launching BP’s original “Beyond Petroleum” strategy, his current work investing billions through BeyondNetZero, and why the future of climate action will be driven as much by adaptation, resilience, and people as by technology itself.From the rise of China as an electrification juggernaut and the US as an AI-powered energy giant, to the tipping point where clean energy demand could finally outpace fossil fuels, this episode offers rare insight from someone who has shaped — and challenged — the global energy system from the inside.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:BeyondNetZero: https://www.generalatlantic.com/climate/Lord Browne’s previous appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/8VXQ2EGAcGMThe Pragmatic Climate Reset, Part 1: https://youtu.be/OHKGor2_BzQ

What happens when a nation’s energy security rests on volatile global gas markets? Why does the UK pay market prices for some of the world’s cheapest-to-produce gas? And is now the moment to rethink decades of “leave it to the market” dogma?This week on Cleaning Up, Baroness Bryony Worthington sits down with Seb Kennedy, energy journalist and founder of Energy Flux, to unpack the turbulent geopolitics of natural gas, the coming LNG glut, and why the UK–Norway relationship sits at the heart of Britain’s energy affordability crisis.Drawing on their recent joint op-ed, Bryony and Seb explore the UK’s dependence on Norwegian gas, the vast windfalls that have flowed into Norway’s sovereign wealth fund since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and whether a new bilateral deal could shield consumers from future price shocks. They examine the structural forces reshaping global gas markets, the rise of speculative trading, and whether electrification will become harder when gas gets cheap.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:Read Seb & Bryony’s Op-Ed on Energy Flux: https://www.energyflux.news/uk-norway-gas-trade-time-for-a-new-deal/Seb’s Energy Flux Podcast: https://www.energyflux.news/tag/podcast/Michael’s conversation with Carine Ihenecho Smith, Chief Governance and Compliance Officer at Norges Bank Investment Group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H028Vwf7pNMThe UK’s updated plan for the North Sea gas transition: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/north-sea-future-plan-for-fair-managed-and-prosperous-transitionBritain eases opposition to new oil, gas permits, holds firm on taxes | Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/uk-government-allows-some-new-oil-gas-fields-holds-firm-taxes-2025-11-26/

What does it take to build Europe’s largest and most sustainable data-centre campus, from an empty plot of land to a 1.2-gigawatt giant of AI? How do you future-proof a facility when chip technology is evolving at breakneck speed? And what happens when the site of former coal-fired power plant becomes a global hub for AI?In this special, on-location episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich visits Sines, Portugal, where Start Campus is transforming the site of a decommissioned coal plant into a next-generation data-centre campus that once finished will be Europe’s largest data centre. CEO Robert Dunn takes us inside the first operational building, currently 29MW but just 2.5% of what’s to come, to explore the engineering, economics, and vision behind a €10 billion physical infrastructure build that will eventually house an additional €40 billion in incoming IT hardware.From earthquake-proof structures to seawater cooling and uninterruptible power supply systems, Rob breaks down what it means to design for 99.99999% uptime in an AI-driven world. Michael and Rob also dive into the reality and hype surrounding AI: the surge in GPU-hungry AI training, the race to build at gigawatt scale, the challenges of financing these mega-projects, and the balancing act between speed, cost, sustainability, and long-term viability.Set against the backdrop of Microsoft’s freshly announced $10 billion investment in the Sines campus, this episode illuminates how the data-centre industry is reshaping global energy systems, local communities, and the future of compute.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more:Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wThe Start Campus website: https://www.startcampus.pt/Microsoft makes one of its largest investments in Europe at Start Campus in Portugal: https://www.startcampus.pt/microsoft-makes-one-of-its-largest-investments-in-europe-at-start-campus-in-portugalMichael’s Green Giant’s Whitepaper: https://pioneerpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021.11.17-Green-Giants-White-Paper-Final.pdfThe Year Energy Woke Up To AI | Audioblog 14: Generative AI, The Power and the Glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZ2iNh133A

What happens when the world’s most ambitious climate state runs head-on into a hostile federal government? Can California still lead the clean-energy transition while battling rising costs, wildfires and the Trump government’s sweeping tariffs? And what does a “pragmatic reset” on climate policy look like when the stakes have never been higher?This week on Cleaning Up Bryony Worthington sits down with Liane Randolph, former Chair of the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and longtime public servant, shaping California’s climate, energy, and air-quality strategy. Across roles spanning the Public Utilities Commission and state natural resources agencies, Randolph has been at the center of some of the most consequential policy decisions in the United States — from the rise of rooftop solar and utility-scale storage to the creation of zero-emission vehicle mandates and the state’s pioneering cap-and-invest system.Together, they unpack how California built the modern EV market, the origins of the famous “duck curve,” and why central planning turned out to be critical for keeping the lights on in a decarbonizing grid. Randolph also details the extraordinary federal pushback now facing the state: repealed Clean Air Act waivers, legal battles over truck and car standards, and tariff-driven supply-chain shocks that threaten progress.The episode explores:The past and future of California’s zero-emission vehicle strategy — from catalytic converters to the birth of TeslaWhy batteries exploded onto the grid, and how wildfire adaptation is reshaping costsThe mechanics and impacts of California’s whole-economy cap-and-invest programThe new affordability crisis — and whether a pragmatic climate “reset” is neededElectric aviation, high-speed rail, and the technologies California should bet on nextThe state’s 2045 net-zero planning — and which sectors will need breakthroughs like DAC and industrial CCSLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:CARB: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/First Cars, Now Planes: Is The Future of Flying Electric? Ep194: Anders Forslund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW3uTBbAGHAWhy Is It So Hard to Clean Up Global Shipping? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto

What does it take to future-proof Europe’s electricity grid? How do you finance €65 billion in infrastructure without driving up consumer electricity costs? And can the permitting process be sped up to become fast enough for the energy transition?This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Tim Meyerjürgens, CEO of TenneT Germany, the country’s largest transmission system operator, to explore the physics and finance behind decarbonising Europe’s power networks.From billion-euro transmission lines to the domestic and international politics of connecting the North Sea’s vast offshore wind potential with Germany’s industrial heartland, Meyerjürgens offers a rare inside view of one of Europe’s most complex and capital-intensive transitions.The conversation dives into:• How TenneT split its Dutch and German operations to attract €9.5 billion in equity from investors like Norges Bank and GIC• The challenge of accelerating grid buildout from 20-year to 5-year timelines• The delicate balance between regulation, investment, and public acceptance• Why building our transmission across Europe is key to energy resilienceThis episode was supported by TenneT Germany.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:• TenneT Germany’s website: https://www.tennet.eu/de-en/home • TenneT Germany successfully concludes syndication of €12 billion revolving credit facility: https://www.tennet.eu/de-en/news/tennet-germany-successfully-concludes-syndication-eu12-billion-revolving-credit-facility• The £60 Billion Plan To Rewire Britain | Ep227: John Pettigrew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aA• Can Europe Survive the Renewables Transition? Ep201: Nikos Tsafos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUvKzs82Mi0

Is green hydrogen a ‘miracle fuel’ or an expensive illusion? Can we decarbonize without it? And what happens when hydrogen hype meets hard economics?This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich debates Erik Rakhou, author of Touching Hydrogen Future, in a no-holds-barred discussion moderated by Andrew Critchlow of S&P Global Commodity Insights.Together, they contest one of the most contentious topics in energy today: hydrogen. Liebreich argues that hydrogen is plagued by physics-driven cost barriers and limited real-world applications, while Rakhou defends its potential as a critical tool for industrial decarbonization, energy resilience, and long-term security.From the potential of green vs. blue hydrogen, to global ammonia trade routes, Europe’s pipeline ambitions, and China’s hydrogen cost curve, this debate pulls no punches. Topics include:Whether there’ll ever be a hydrogen-based economyWhy hydrogen economics remain so challengingThe role of carbon pricing vs. subsidiese-Fuels and hydrogen’s place in transport, steel, and aviationWhy electrification trumps hydrogenThis episode was recorded at the S&P Global offices in London and originally broadcast as a S&P Global webinar on October 29, 2025. THanks to S&P Global and Andrew Critchlow for hosting the debate.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Read more:Erik's website: https://rakhou.comThe EU’s hydrogen strategy: https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/eus-energy-system/hydrogen_enData on EU natural gas prices 2010-2025: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1buQTdpQOMShue-zXyZUYVgZ9dPe5rZ5Y/view?usp=share_linkMichael Liebreich's Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj900aBPkiYErik’s book ‘Touching Hydrogen Futures’: https://europeangasmarket.euEuropean Court of Auditors call for a hydrogen reality check: https://www.eca.europa.eu/en/news/NEWS-SR-2024-11Michael’s Pragmatic Climate Reset: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/

What if the energy transition isn’t about sacrifice and belt-tightening, but abundance? Are electrified technologies ready to replace the polluting fossil fuel system we’re so reliant on? And what will it mean for western nations if they can’t keep up with China? In this special bonus episode of Cleaning Up, recorded live in Berlin, Michael Liebreich sits down with Kingsmill Bond, strategist at Ember, to unpack The Electrotech Revolution, a powerful new framing of the global shift from a fossil-fuel economy to an electrified, efficient, and inevitable clean energy system.Together, Kingsmill and Michael explore why the growth of solar and wind is now outpacing fossil fuels worldwide, how China’s leadership is reshaping the global landscape, and what Europe and the US must do to compete. Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more:Ember’s Electrotech Revolution Report: https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/the-electrotech-revolution/Ember’s Funders: https://ember-energy.org/about/Lauri Myllyvirta on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/FqjvCeR9VLgMichael’s Pragmatic Reset Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2_BzQMichael’s Pragmatic Reset Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFF1imh1U2c

This week on Cleaning Up, we welcome back Rachel Kyte, the UK’s Special Representative for Climate Change, for a deep dive into the shifting landscape of global climate diplomacy ahead of COP30 in Belém, Brazil.Rachel brings decades of experience — from leading Sustainable Energy for All under Ban Ki-Moon to senior roles at the World Bank and IFC — to unpack how countries, investors, and institutions are navigating the new era of implementation.Together, Michael and Rachel explore:How the UK is re-engaging globally on climate and energy policy.The evolution of climate finance and why capital still struggles to flow into emerging markets.Which path the world will follow, the US petrostate model, or China’s electrostate model.Why investing in grids, governance, and infrastructure is still missing from the energy transition.What to expect at COP30 — from forest finance to a possible rethink of the annual COP model.And how countries from Africa to Asia are shaping their own pathways to clean growth and energy security.Rachel also reflects on public attitudes, the politicization of climate action, and the need for pragmatic cooperation over rhetoric.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more:Rachel’s first appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/Umq5pICThDMInside the World's Biggest Investor - Ep138: Carine Smith IhenachoThe Planet's Leading Diplomat - Ep70: Ban Ki-moonSustainable Energy for All - Ep16: Dr Kandeh K. Yumkella

Global shipping contributes about 3% of global greenhouse gas emissions, equivalent to the total emissions of Japan or Germany. The sector, including its contribution to climate change, is governed by the International Maritime Organisation or the IMO, which is a UN agency based in London in the United Kingdom.Last week, the International Maritime Organisation gathered to vote on a proposal to reduce emissions from ships that had been agreed to in principle earlier this year. And ahead of the gathering, most people intimately involved in the process thought the proposal would pass. But that wasn’t the case. The US stepped in at the last minute and pressured all those gathered to delay the vote on the proposal for another 12 months.This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington sits down with Professor Tristan Smith, a leading expert on shipping decarbonisation from UCL Energy Institute, to unpack the dramatic events at the latest International Maritime Organization meeting — where the United States’ last-minute intervention derailed a landmark vote on cutting emissions from ships.Together, they explore:How global shipping, responsible for around 3% of greenhouse gas emissions, became a critical test case for international climate policyWhy the IMO’s proposed carbon intensity regulation could have marked the beginning of the end for oil and LNG as marine fuelsThe “Tariff diplomacy” and other threats that reshaped global negotiationsWhat this means for COP30 and other multilateral agreements.Bryony and Tristan also dive deep into possible solutions: from e-fuels, ammonia, and battery electrification to nuclear propulsion — weighing what’s practical, what’s political, and what’s merely wishful thinking.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Is Shipping the Easiest "Hard-to-Abate" Sector? - Ep143: Johannah Christensen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPAonV20cMThe IMO website: https://www.imo.org/Michael’s Substack on the IMO decision: ​​https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/imo-members-choose-between-the-us