Unseen Leadership Episode 80: Josh King on Developing Leadership in an Established Church

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by William Vanerbloemen, CEO and Founder of the Vanderbloemen Search Group, to discuss the topic of leadership and his latest book, “Be the Unicorn: 12 Data-Driven Habits That Separate the Best Leaders from the Rest.” Vanderbloemen shares insights from his research on exceptional leaders and their common habits, aiming to provide people with a guide to becoming exceptional leaders themselves. The interview also delves into Vanderbloemen’s diverse background and experiences, including his time as a pastor and starting his own firm. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 84 “God called us to be fishers of men, not keepers of an aquarium.” – Lyle E. Schaller “The leadership that I had to learn when I was a pastor might be more important now than ever because I had to learn how to get people to follow when they didn't have to.” – William Vanderbloemen “Until you learn your own weaknesses, you won't ever be able to help anybody else.” – William Vanderbloemen “If you're thinking of making a change, the best transitions I've seen are when you sense completion where you are and then a step towards something good that's coming. Don't just step away from your job with nothing in hand. If you've completed what you were called to do and you're headed towards something new, there's a higher likelihood that you're walking in step with the rhythm that you need to.” – William Vanderbloemen “Particularly in 18-35-year-olds, they get a job offer and then they counter. Obviously, if they're not paying you fairly, then you can have that conversation. But there are so many times I see people in that age range counteroffer and shoot themselves in the foot. Even if they land the job and get the counter, they're starting workday one with the label of that the guy knows everything. I think the longer, slower, more successful play is to prove yourself, and you'll never have to ask for a raise.” – William Vanderbloemen I think particularly if you're a new leader where you're serving some people that are older than you, go ask them to tell you about the best days of this company or the best days of this church. You can learn so much by learning the history of where you've been.” – William Vanderbloemen RECOMMENDED RESOURCES Be the Unicorn: 12 Data-Driven Habits that Separate the Best Leaders from the Rest by William Vanderbloemen Einstein: His Life and Universe by Walter Isaacson Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear Wisdom from Lyle E. Schaller: The Elder Statesman of Church Leadership by Lyle E. Schaller and Warren Bird

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Garrett Kell, who serves as the Lead Pastor of Del Ray Baptist Church in Alexandria, Virginia. During this podcast, he discusses his leadership journey and his role in revitalizing Del Ray Baptist Church. Garrett also shares insights into being a leader guided by God, the importance of relationships, and the use of social media to share the gospel in a relatable way. He also discusses his experiences in various leadership roles before and after becoming a Christian, emphasizing the value of stewarding influence and pointing people toward Jesus. Kell provides insights into church revitalization, focusing on the need for intentional change, preaching the Word, and prayer. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 83 “Be led by God before you lead others. Whatever area of influence God has placed you in, He's put you there to be faithful with whatever is entrusted. But it's always in the context of relationships. So whether you're a pastor or a plumber, whether you're a politician or whatever it is that you do, you should seek to be led by God so that as you're influencing others, you're influencing them toward Him, and not away from Him.” – Garrett Kell “In one sense, whether you're planting a church or revitalizing being a part of revitalization, you're pastoring. And the question is, do you want to make your own mess or clean up someone else's mess?” – Garrett Kell “Be careful with your words and seek to serve people, not use them as props.” – Garrett Kell “Disconnect from social media regularly to minimize distractions and be present in the moment.” – Garrett Kell “Part of being a pastor is being willing to be led by the Word and let God do the work, even when it’s uncomfortable.” – Garrett Kell “I think serving and ministering out of a place of passion is important. Don't try to replicate something everybody else does.” – Garrett Kell The safest people for me love me and care about me. They want me to love God, love my family, and make it to heaven, and they are not impressed with me.” – Garrett Kell RECOMMENDED RESOURCES A Time to Mourn: Grieving the Loss of Those Whose Eternities Were Uncertain by Will Dobbie A Call to Prayer by J.C. Ryle Overcoming Apathy: Gospel Hope for Those Who Struggle to Care by Uche Anizor You're Not Crazy: Gospel Sanity for Weary Churches by Ray Ortlund, Sam Alberry, and Russell Moore Delighting in the Trinity: An Introduction to the Christian Faith by Michael Reeves No Greater Love; A Biblical Vision for Friendship by Rebecca McLaughlin Our Daily Bread App Speechify App

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Spence Shelton, the lead pastor of Mercy Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Shelton discusses the challenges and mistakes he has made as a church planter and shares valuable insights and advice for leaders in the church and ministry context. He emphasizes the importance of humility, courage, and listening to others in leadership, drawing on his background in the business world to inform his approach to ministry. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 82 “Working in the marketplace really helped me to not only know the experience but also think well through the programming of our church and how are we equipping the saints for ministry where they are.” – Spence Shelton “There is a level of professionalism that I want to bring to our ministry, but not for the sake of looking polished. Rather, I want them to feel like they can trust their church and there's a level of professionalism that communicates trust.” – Spence Shelton “Find a relationship where there's somebody who's got some experience and let them call out what they see God doing in your life.” – Spence Shelton “One of the biggest lessons I’ve had to learn in my leadership as well as my character development is having to take my hands off of more and more things and trust the people that God has called into leading alongside me and under my leadership.” – Spence Shelton “Your job is to equip the saints for ministry and if you try and control the saints instead of equip them, that vision is never going to become a reality.” – Spence Shelton If I don’t keep my fingers off what my staff is doing, they're going to feel like they're being micromanaged, and they can't lead. Plus, young leaders can't be developed if old leaders are gripping their ministry.” – Spence Shelton “Empower your people, equip them, and release them for ministry. Don't try and micromanage them and control them.” – Spence Shelton “A little bit of experience is way worse than no experience. A little bit of experience is way more dangerous than no experience.” – Spence Shelton “Be willing to fail because if you don't, you're not going to risk anything. People need vision and vision is a risk so be willing to fail. But, in all things, have humility.” – Spence Shelton “If you have humility, then you will take courageous risks that will be surrounded by wisdom because you'll be listening to others and everything else.” – Spence Shelton The biggest misconception I had about leadership was that my ideas would be enough. If I just had good ideas, that'd be enough. Now, ideas are important. Vision is important. But relationships matter. You will not get far just on an idea. Especially in ministry, you're not going to get far as a leader unless you're a servant leader.” – Spence Shelton RECOMMENDED RESOURCES The Emotionally Healthy Leader: How Transforming Your Inner Life Will Deeply Transform Your Church, Team, and the World by Peter Scazzero The Reformed Pastor: The Duties and Methods of Labors for the Souls of Men by Richard Baxter The Art of War by Sun Tzu The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution by Carl R. Trueman Dangerous Calling: Confronting the Unique Challenges of Pastoral Ministry by Paul David Tripp The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups by Daniel Coyle

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Mark Gauthier, the Vice President of Cru, and Director of its U.S. operations. They discuss the mission and vision of Cru as a worldwide Christian ministry and Gauthier shares how Cru focuses on leadership and personal growth, encouraging young leaders to step out in faith and trust in God's provision. He also touches on his own experiences and pivotal moments in his life, highlighting upcoming opportunities for Cru at the World Cup in 2026 and the Open Window Partnership in the Middle East. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 81 “Readiness is important. Yes, we want to keep developing our skills, but I don't think it's ever a prerequisite for leadership.” – Mark Gauthier “God isn't necessarily asking you to take a job for the rest of your life. Just take the next right step.” – Mark Gauthier “Our leadership, wherever we are contributing, comes from within, and we lead out of who we are. I think the most significant person you must lead is yourself.” – Mark Gauthier “Sometimes the best indicator that you're doing the right thing is that it’s going to cause your faith to grow.” – Mark Gauthier “There are 8 billion people in the world and every one of us is made uniquely in the image of God. That means that He knows that we all have a specific way that we connect with Him, and we're not all the same.” – Mark Gauthier “Note-taking is a form of me just expressing humility in that I want to learn.” – Mark Gauthier “Ask for feedback, it's so important. It's easy for our confidence to outstrip our character.” – Mark Gauthier “Leadership is going to be a walk of faith. Give yourself grace. Give yourself patience. God has got you, and He's going to give you what you need when you need it.” – Mark Gauthier RECOMMENDED RESOURCES God's Smuggler by Brother Andrew and John and Elizabeth Sherrill The Splendid and the Vile: A Saga of Churchill, Family, and Defiance During the Blitz by Erik Larson Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend Life Without Lack: Living in the Fullness of Psalm 23 by Dallas Willard Jesus Film Project

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Josh King, Lead pastor of Second Baptist in Conway, Arkansas. In the episode, Josh discusses his journey in ministry, starting at the age of 18, and emphasizes the importance of investing in established churches and valuing their resources and legacy. He highlights the need for young leaders to prepare themselves for leadership roles by immersing themselves in the environments and practices of their desired positions and learning from experienced leaders. Through his own experiences and mentorship, Josh encourages young leaders to recognize and affirm the callings of others, empowering them to step into their leadership roles with confidence. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 80 “When you see a calling within somebody and in their life, call it out. Giving that confidence to somebody is huge and affirming.” – Josh King “There is a big difference between saying someone is ready for ministry and simply telling them they are called.” – Josh King “Don't wait until you have the job. Start learning now by hanging out with people who are actively doing what you want to do and pick it up as you can.” – Josh King “A shift for me was not being bitter about not being the trendy, cool, leader with all these special giftings, but instead, just embracing whom God created me to be.” – Josh King “We can be so tempted to get go ahead and get to a decision, but things like struggling with a committee, or struggling with some deacons or some lay leaders, there's discipleship in that.” – Josh King “If you can see the beauty in the minutia and in the journey, I would have learned quicker to bring my eyes down a little bit and to see the now, not just the next.” – Josh King “We love leadership so much, yet over and over Scripture puts a greater emphasis on following in that, great leaders are actually just great followers. And God gives a following to those who are great followers.” – Josh King “If you worry more about following Christ and about submitting to the godly leaders in your life, the leadership will come later. That's how you get developed.” – Josh King “God is not going to hold you responsible for the mess that you found. He's just holding you responsible for what you do in it.” – Josh King RECOMMENDED RESOURCES The God Who Goes Before You: Pastoral Leadership as Christ-Centered Followership by Timothy Paul Jones and Michael S. Wilder Shepherd Leadership: Wisdom for Leaders from Psalm 23 by Blaine McCormick and David Davenport

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Vance Pitman, President of the Send Network, and former pastor of Hope Church in Las Vegas. This episode explores the theme of leadership in the context of church planting and ministry. Pitman shares his insights and experiences, emphasizing the importance of succession and focusing on the kingdom of God rather than personal success. He also discusses his journey as a church planter in Las Vegas and the unique challenges and opportunities he has faced in ministering to a non-Christian population. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 79 “Jesus focused more on succession than He did on success. And I think that's an issue in the church and American leadership in America. Today, we focus on success without even thinking about succession. Jesus was just the opposite. If you look at His public ministry, it was not even successful. 120 people after three and a half years wouldn't get him any book deal or invitation to speak at any conference, but that 120 became 120,000 because He focused on succession knowing it was bigger than just His life. I think that's something we got to get focused towards.” – Vance Pitman “The church is just a temporary tool established by Jesus for the expansion of the kingdom. The real end game is the kingdom of God around the throne of Jesus for every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.” – Vance Pitman “The primary call on my life is not to do something for Jesus, the primary call of my life is to be with Jesus. And everything Jesus wants to do through my life, He'll do out of the overflow of what He's doing in my life.” – Vance Pitman “The greatest thing you bring to your role as a leader is your personal intimate relationship with Jesus because everything that He wants to do through you as a leader, He'll do in you. The key to learning about being a leader is before I can be a leader, I must be a devoted follower. The key to my success as a leader is the devotion that I pursue Christ with as a devoted follower. And as a follower of Jesus, He then begins to lead through us in ways that we would never dream possible.” – Vance Pitman “As much as you schedule appointments, as much as you schedule time with the family as much as you schedule time to sleep at night, you have to build rest and whitespace or margin into your calendar.” – Vance Pitman “We will never, never grow healthy churches with unhealthy leaders.” – Lance Witt “We have neglected the fact that a pastor's greatest leadership tool is a healthy soul.” – Lance Witt “I think one of the reasons that the church in North America is struggling today is because we have spiritually unhealthy leadership. When you look at the kingdom of God, globally, there are only two continents in the world where Christianity is declining. One of them is North America, and North America has the most resources, the most buildings, the most budget, the most staff the most degrees, and the most education the most. Why are we not seeing the kingdom expand? I think it's directly related to the spiritual health of those who are leading.” – Vance Pitman “Starting a church service is not planting a church. Biblical missiology is that planting a church starts with the city. You engage that city with the gospel, you make disciples, and churches are born as a byproduct.” – Vance Pitman “Leadership is lonely, but it cannot be done alone. Leadership demands that we bring other people to the table to lead alongside us.” – Vance Pitman “You cannot lead what you do not live long term. You can fake it in the short run. Authenticity in leadership is important and if you're not living it, you won't be able to lead it over the long haul. – Vance Pitman RECOMMENDED RESOURCES Replenish: Leading from a Healthy Soul by Lance Witt Gentle and Lowly: The Heart of Christ for Sinners and Sufferers by Dane Ortlund The Stressless Life: Experiencing the Unshakable Presence...

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Tod Bolsinger, who is a speaker, executive coach, former pastor, and author who serves as associate professor of leadership formation and senior fellow for the De Pree Center for Leadership at Fuller Seminary. In this episode, Bolsinger discusses his background in leadership roles, including his experience in pastoral ministry and the pivotal moment that changed his approach to leadership. They also discuss the importance of adaptive leadership and building trust with followers, while also prioritizing the mission of organizations over personal recognition and success. This episode provides insights into Bolsinger's leadership journey and his approach to leading in a rapidly changing world. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 78 “You need trust for transformation, but trust is not true transformation. You being a highly trusted leader doesn't mean anybody's being changed. As a matter of fact, sometimes it means they will let you be the proxy for their formation and what you must learn is how to figure out how to invest that trust in calling people toward genuine transformation. That's what adaptive leadership is.” – Tod Bolsinger “The most important thing about our fruitfulness is that we are faithful to our mission. So obviously, the mission always wins. It's the mission, not the pastor, not the congregants, not the people the path the voices of the past, not the people. It's the mission.” – Tod Bolsinger “The hardest thing for me today is owning that the group is smarter than I am. But I'm not here to impress anybody. I'm here to express what God wants to do.” – Tod Bolsinger When you're experiencing conflict, what so many try to do is stop the conflict when what we need to do is learn from the conflict.” – Tod Bolsinger “The most soul-sucking thing for most leaders is not the challenges of the world, it's the resistance of your own people in your own congregation. It's your own team.” – Tod Bolsinger “Leaders are formed in the leading. So, if you're having a challenge right now, it's not that you messed up, missed a class, or didn't read a book. This is normal. It's normal for you because you became a leader right after you were good at something that was not leading.” – Tod Bolsinger “You become a leader in the crisis of leadership and the crucible of leadership. You must develop honest, vulnerable self-reflection. If you are only defending yourself, you will never be able to be open enough to the shaping that God wants to do in your life.” – Tod Bolsinger “A leader asking for loyalty is a sign of dysfunction almost every time.” – Tod Bolsinger RECOMMENDED RESOURCES Tempered Resilience: How Leaders Are Formed in the Crucible of Change by Tod Bolsinger Canoeing the Mountains: Christian Leadership in Uncharted Territory by Tod Bolsinger Thriving through Ministry Conflict: A Parable on How Resistance Can Be Your Ally by James P. Osterhaus, Joseph M. Jurkowski, and Todd A. Hahn

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Shane Pruitt, the national Next Gen director for the North American Mission Board. This episode discusses the importance of calling out future ministry leaders while highlighting the need for current leaders to focus on and mentor the next generation of leaders. Pruitt also shares his personal journey from a lost young man to a successful ministry leader and emphasizes the significance of guiding and mobilizing young adults and college students with the gospel of Jesus Christ. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 77 “I think we as current leaders have stopped on a large scale asking a whole generation to consider if God's calling them the ministry leadership.” – Shane Pruitt “A lot of times God will affirm that inside affirmation from outside affirmation from others.” – Shane Pruitt “Ministry calling is not something that you have to chase in a sense, it will chase you down. If God is calling you, He will give you opportunities to exercise that whatever that is.” – Shane Pruitt “Lead from the overflow of your own worship of King Jesus and lead from the overflow of your own proximity with the Holy Spirit.” – Shane Pruitt “The bride of Christ is beautiful, no matter what size. Sometimes there are large churches because they're faithful to the gospel. And then there are some churches that are normative, or what others may consider smaller, and they're faithful to the gospel. They're being salt and light in their community.” – Shane Pruitt “Our identity should not be wrapped up in results or in pleasing people but being obedient to LORD all the way to the end.” – Shane Pruitt RECOMMENDED RESOURCES Calling Out the Called: Discipling Those Called to Ministry Leadership by Shane Pruitt Spiritual Leadership: Principles of Excellence for Every Believer by J. Oswald Sanders Billy Graham: The Man I Knew by Greg Laurie

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by Ben Stuart, the pastor of Passion City Church in Washington, DC. Ben shares his leadership journey and the different roles he has held in ministry, including his experience as a youth pastor and his current position at Passion City Church. He emphasizes the importance of consistent leadership, and the impact leaders have on those around them. Ben also shares insights on student leadership at Texas A&M University and the value of serving and following God's leading rather than seeking the spotlight. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 76 “Don't chase the spotlight. Don't chase the mic. Chase the Lord. And He's going to lead you where you need to go. You keep learning, you keep growing, you keep serving, and He's going to elevate you.” – Ben Stuart “What seems like a great moment of failure might be a step into your biggest victory.” – Ben Stuart “Sometimes God is going to make you sit on something for a long time to sharpen your vision of it.” – Ben Stuart “Just be faithful to the reveal that's in front of you. Don't try to play chess with your life. Sometimes you just must be faithful to what's in front of you.” – Ben Stuart “Don’t hurry up and grab a thing, position, or title to validate your existence. That's such an unhealthy dangerous place to be. The older I get, the more grateful I am that God hid me from any spotlights and surrounded me with good mentors.” – Ben Stuart “You really need to make sure that you trust someone's character and that you have chemistry with another person before you put them in a position of leadership because your job as a leader is to protect the culture. Of course, you want one that's filled with grace and truth, humility, and a commitment to the Word of God. So, you’ve got to be careful whom you hand the mantle of leadership to.” – Ben Stuart RECOMMENDED RESOURCES 1776 by David McCullough Passion 2024 The Master Plan of Evangelism by Dr. Robert E. Coleman and Billy Graham

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership Podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Dan Iten are joined by David Platt, who is the Lead Pastor at McLean Bible Church and founder of Radical, who discusses his journey in ministry and the importance of intimacy with God. He emphasizes prioritizing a biblical gospel over an American one that values comfort, power, and politics. Platt's new book, "Don't Hold Back: Leaving Behind the American Gospel to Follow Jesus Fully," explores topics such as unity in the church, justice with the gospel, and the beauty of a multi-ethnic bride of Christ. Platt also shares a pivotal moment in his personal life where his wife's wake-up call led him to embrace spiritual disciplines such as meditation, prayer, fasting, exercise, and sleep. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 75 “I don't think it was just an American dream that was captivating our hearts, I think there's been an American gospel that's been consuming our lives.” – David Platt “A gospel that exchanges the biblical gospel that exalts Jesus above everything in the world for an American version of it prostitutes Jesus for the sake of comfort and power and politics and prosperity in our country. It has ravaged the church in many ways and our witness, not just in our country, but to the ends of the earth.” – David Platt “What frightens me is how successful in the eyes of the world that I could be in ministry and do it totally apart from intimacy with Jesus.” – David Platt “Don't try to manufacture a heart for ministry and miss a heart for Jesus or you’ll miss the whole point.” – David Platt “Of course, it’s unhelpful if you never act on anything and you're just always indecisive, but at the same time, be wise in learning and listening before deciding or acting to learn that balance or that tension of when it's healthy to move forward.” – David Platt That's part of what leadership is which is to shepherd people toward where God's calling you to go and not just telling them to go there and expecting it to happen.” – David Platt “Be afraid of leading apart from intimacy with Jesus.” – David Platt RECOMMENDED RESOURCES Don't Hold Back: Breaking Free from the American Gospel to Follow Jesus Fully by David Platt For the Love of God: A Daily Companion for Discovering the Riches of God's Word by D.A. Carson Waiting on God: A 31-Day Adventure into the Heart of God by Andrew Murray