224: Conservation Labour with Anwesha Dutta and Nick Harvey Sky

Working in conservation? Take the survey: CONLAB surveyWho are the people doing the actual work of conservation? How many of them are there and what are their working conditions? And whose labour remains invisible in the process? These are not questions that conservation science has spent much time on. Yet without understanding the people behind the work, we lack a complete picture of how conservation functions and who it affects. Today, we take on this largely neglected subject with Dr Anwesha Dutta, principal investigator and project lead of CONLAB (Conservation Labor Project), and Dr Nick Harvey Sky, postdoctoral researcher on the project. Their work sits at the intersection of political ecology and conservation science, and their work is opening up an entirely new line of inquiry.During our conversation, Anwesha and Nick explain how labour theory can offer important insights into conservation. We discuss the power dynamics between employers and workers, the role of unpaid work, and how race, class and gender shape who gets opportunities in the sector. We also talk about the global survey they are running to capture the big picture of conservation labour worldwide. Nick explains why the survey casts a wide net, seeking responses not just from rangers and biologists but also from IT staff, hotel workers, farmers and anyone whose work supports conservation in some capacity. In fact, one of the aims of the project is to challenge our assumptions about who counts as a conservationist.We also get into some difficult but necessary territory. Anwesha shares her fieldwork experiences from national parks in India, where a ranger told her that if a ranger is hurt it takes two days to get medical help, but if a rhino is hurt a helicopter arrives instantly. We discuss the militarisation of conservation, the commodification of nature, and the troubling reality that in many parts of the world conservation labour is informal, seasonal and precarious. Nick talks about the so-called 'passion tax', where love for nature is exploited to justify poor pay and conditions. Both guests leave us with a clear message: conservation must be compassionate, careful, and embedded in an ethics of care for people and for the planet.Further reading:An international scoping review of rangers’ precarious employment conditions | Environment Systems and Decisions | Springer Nature LinkAn Exceptional Strike: A Micro-history of 'People versus Park' in MadagascarThe Low-Wage Conservationist: Biodiversity and Perversities of Value in MadagascarConservation labour geographies: Subsuming regional labour into private conservation spaces in South AfricaPsychological distress and workplace risk inequalities among conservation professionalsSupporting conservationists’ mental health through better working conditionsNot Just Participation: The Rise of the Eco-Precariat in the Green EconomyLabour perspectives on frontline conservation work | Current ConservationSubscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTube

What does it take to bring wild nature back to a country that has forgotten what it looks like? Can rewilding truly benefit local communities and rural economies or does it come at their expense? And is Scotland really thirty years behind the rest of Europe when it comes to restoring its landscapes? This is a Podcasthon episode and this year I've chosen SCOTLAND: The Big Picture as my featured charity. Founded by nature photographers and filmmakers it has grown from a single employee to a team of twenty-four in just a few years. Today I'm joined by Lisa Chilton, CEO, and Stef Lauer, Rewilding Training Lead.Lisa and Stef walk us through the extraordinary scope of what SCOTLAND: The Big Picture has built. At the heart of it all is the Northwoods Rewilding Network, a string of over a hundred land partners spanning the country from the Solway Firth to Shetland. The research backing this work is striking. Rewilded sites within the network have recorded more than 250% more bird species and a tenfold increase in pollinator abundance compared to control sites that weren’t rewilded. Beyond the network, the Loch Abar Mòrr poject brings together fourteen landowners across 120,000 acres, working to a fifty-year vision that stretches from the summit of Ben Nevis right down to seagrass beds and native oysters on the seafloor.Our conversation also covers the long and careful effort to bring lynx back to Scotland. Lisa explains how Lynx to Scotland, a partnership involving SCOTLAND: The Big Picture, Trees for Life, and the Lifescape Project, has spent years engaging over fifty national stakeholder organisations and is now conducting one-to-one consultations in the communities most likely to be affected by any future release. The process is slow and deliberate. But as Stef puts it, the question is really about what kind of ecosystem we want to leave for the next generation. On that front, the ambition and the optimism coming from Lisa and Stef are genuinely infectious.Further reading:Working to return lynx to northern Scotland | Lynx to ScotlandRewilding training | SCOTLAND: The Big PictureThe Big Picture Conference | SCOTLAND: The Big PictureDonate | SCOTLAND: The Big PictureOur Big Picture Community | SCOTLAND: The Big PictureSubscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTube

What happens when a farming family decides to become the first private landowner in Britain to legally relocate beavers onto their farm? How do you navigate the bureaucracy, the opposition from farming neighbours and the politics of wildlife management? And can beavers actually help a farm deal with the effects of climate change? To find answers to those questions I sat down with Tom Bowser, author of “Waters of Life: Fighting for Scotland's Beavers”, a book that tells the story of his journey from a self-described placid pacifist to a self-proclaimed radical fighting for beaver restoration.Tom's family has farmed at Argaty in central Scotland since 1916, running the farm with two aims: producing food sustainably and making it as good a home as possible for nature. From the 2000s, beaver escapes or unlicensed releases led to a wild beaver population in Tayside, much of it on prime arable farmland where they were often unpopular with farmers. The Scottish government gave them protected status in 2019 but also handed out lethal control licences with alarming ease. In the first year alone, one in five beavers of Scotland's tiny population was killed under licence. When Tom was approached about rehoming beavers that would otherwise be shot, he stepped into a process that tested his patience, his relationships with farming neighbours and his faith in the system.During our conversation, Tom shares hard-won lessons about bridging the divide between farmers and conservationists. We talk about the tribal dynamics that make these discussions so difficult and the importance of speaking to people like normal human beings rather than talking down to them. Tom also describes the real, measurable benefits beavers have brought to his farm, from reduced flood damage to water retention during heatwave summers. Tom's story is a reminder that restoring nature and producing food don't have to be an either-or proposition. Do yourself a favour and buy 'Waters of Life: Fighting for Scotland's Beavers' using the link below.Subscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTubeTommy’s Outdoors is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.co.ukThe guest featured in this episode paid a nominal guesting fee. This fee did not directly influence the content of the episode. The guest had no editorial control, did not review the episode before publication, and did not influence the questions asked during the interview.

How did little over ten grey squirrels, brought to an Aberdeen zoo in 1971 to keep a tame squirrel called Jack company, turn into a population of over ten thousand? What does it take to eradicate an invasive species from a city? And could this project become the first urban grey squirrel eradication anywhere in the world? To discuss all of this I'm joined by James Kennedy, the Eradication Operations Lead for Saving Scotland's Red Squirrels (SSRS), a partnership project run by the Scottish Wildlife Trust. James has been on the ground since 2009, starting as a Grey Squirrel Control Officer on what was supposed to be an eighteen-month contract. Here he is, seventeen years later, closer than ever to achieving something many thought impossible.During our conversation, James explains why grey squirrels are such a serious problem for native red squirrels and for the wider environment. It's not just about competition for food and habitat. Grey squirrels carry squirrelpox virus, which is lethal to red squirrels, usually killing them within a fortnight. They also cause millions of pounds of damage through bark stripping of trees, threatening both ancient woodlands and commercial forestry. We also discuss the role of pine martens in suppressing grey squirrel populations, a topic that is surprisingly emotive in conservation circles, and how the situation in Ireland offers some encouraging signs for red squirrel recovery.James takes us through the practical realities of running an urban trapping operation, from getting the backing of Aberdeen City Council to managing a trap loan scheme with local residents. He shares stories of public encounters, both positive and hostile, and explains why education and patience matter when dealing with a controversial subject. We also look at alternative approaches such as fertility control and gene drive technology. But as James puts it, nothing currently replaces boots on the ground. With grey squirrel captures down to just two in 2025 and detection dogs now being deployed, the project is entering its confirmation phase. If you care about invasive species management and what is possible with long-term commitment, this is an episode you don't want to miss.Subscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTube

What does it take to track wildlife across 250 square kilometres of Irish woodland? How do you position cameras to capture elusive species like otters and pine martens without introducing bias into your data? What happens when floodwaters threaten your carefully placed equipment? Join us as we follow a camera trap survey through the Clara Vale in central County Wicklow, where systematic monitoring reveals the lives of Ireland's mammals.Throughout the episode, we've included footage from the field showing the actual process of retrieving cameras from flooded mixed woodlands. So, if you're watching the video version, you'll see the camera trap images of otters and deer, the moment we discover whether the equipment survived the floods, and the landscapes where these surveys take place.We also discuss the importance of systematic camera placement, why all cameras point north, and how spacing them kilometres apart provides better population sampling. The approach demonstrates how proper methodology reduces bias and creates representative data about wildlife distribution across diverse landscapes.Beyond the technical aspects, we explore what it means to survey wildlife across private and public lands, from forests to plantations. The work covers 60 cameras across County Wicklow and extends to other project sites around Ireland, including national parks where grid-based designs become possible. It's a glimpse into the patient, systematic work that builds our understanding of Irish wildlife populations and their response to different habitat types and land management practices.Subscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTubeMentioned in this episode:DisclaimerThe views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual participants and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organisation. The participants are expressing their personal opinions and perspectives.

This episode features one of the most important conversations about hunting and impacts on nature that I can remember in 10 years of making the podcast. It's not surprising though as our guest today is a long-time supporter and friend of the podcast, Tony Bynum. Tony is an accomplished wildlife photographer who spent 15 years travelling the world photographing people hunting. He is a geographer by training with a master's degree in science and has managed scientific projects across the United States. He also worked in two presidential administrations at the Environmental Protection Agency. On top of all that, Tony is a lifelong hunter and angler with Native American heritage that deeply influences his approach to conservation and land ethics.Our conversation starts with a famous quote from José Ortega y Gasset suggesting that photography can never replace hunting because one is mere observation and the other is participation. Tony challenges this view with a perspective I hadn't considered before. Are photographers really just observers? What personal decisions has Tony made about his own photography as a result of his views? And how do traditional stories shape our connection to the land and the animals we pursue? You'll have to listen to find out.We also discuss the difference between transactional and value-based approaches to hunting, the role of visual art in conservation and the problematic influence of social media on outdoor pursuits. Tony's message about doing something for what you love, rather than just loving it, runs through everything we discuss. His thoughts on raising his three daughters with outdoor experiences, without pushing them to become environmentalists, offer valuable insights for anyone who cares about passing on a connection to nature.Subscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTube

Can holistic grazing systems restore degraded hillsides and create profitable farms? How can local food systems and venison products revitalise struggling rural communities? Is it possible to farm with nature rather than against it and still make a living? These are the questions we explore in our conversation with John Duffy from Future Oak Farm, who returned to County Donegal after a career in oil and gas to transform his family's traditional sheep farm into a model of regenerative agriculture.John left Donegal at 17 because he couldn't see a future in traditional farming. After 16 years working in civil engineering, mining and oil and gas exploration across Europe, the Middle East and Africa, he returned home following an industry downturn and his father's death. What brought him back wasn't nostalgia but a vision for a different kind of agriculture. Inspired by Allan Savory's holistic management and the predator-prey dynamics he'd seen in David Attenborough documentaries, John began experimenting with bunched livestock grazing that mimics natural herbivore behaviour. The results transformed not just the land but the economic viability of hill farming in one of Ireland's most challenging landscapes.Our conversation covers habitat recovery, woodland regeneration, deer management and the creation of Wild & Co, John's venison product company that's building shorter supply chains and retaining more value in rural communities. We also discuss the fragility of long supply chains, the disconnect in Ireland's food system where 70% of consumed beef is imported despite producing enough to feed ourselves three times over and why John believes the innovation needed for Irish agriculture will come from the challenging farming conditions of the West of Ireland. John offers a practical vision for how farming can support both nature and thriving rural communities.Further reading:Wild & Co | Wild Irish Venison Protein SnacksFuture Oak FarmFuture Oak Farm | InstagramWild & Co | InstagramSubscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTubeThe guest featured in this episode paid a nominal guesting fee. This fee did not directly influence the content of the episode. The guest had no editorial control, did not review the episode before publication, and did not influence the questions asked during the interview.

How do rural communities prepare for climate change when global commitment seems to be wavering? What does real climate adaptation look like on the ground? Can local knowledge be as valuable as academic expertise when it comes to building resilient communities? These are the questions we tackle in this special episode, which launches a new series following a two-year Community Climate Adaptation Training and Mentoring Programme in Kerry.Today I'm joined by six guests. John Loughrey from NEWKD explains how the LEADER programme evolved from having one small climate sub-theme to making it a major focus. Micheál Ó Cóileáin, Mary Kiernan, Thomas O'Connor, Niamh Ní Dhúill and Catríona Fallon from Transition Kerry share their experiences working on these issues since 2007. Together, NEWKD and Transition Kerry developed an ambitious programme to work with local communities across Co. Kerry. Our conversation covers everything from the practical details of the programme to the philosophy behind it, including wisdom about using your head, heart and hands to create the future you want.This is the first episode in a series where we'll be following the programme over the next two years. We'll be speaking with participants and community leaders as they work through the various phases of capacity building, from initial meetings through to implementing climate adaptation projects in their own communities.To sign up or find out more, contact [email protected] go to www.adaptationkerry.transitionkerry.orgSubscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTube

What if the world's most powerful climate solution is being logged away while politicians and industry groups feed us misinformation? How can an ecosystem store three times more carbon per acre than the Amazon rainforest? Why has the international science community remained largely silent about the destruction of temperate rainforests? Our conversation with Paul Koberstein, co-author of "Canopy of Titans - The Life and Times of the Great North American Temperate Rainforest" tackles these urgent questions head-on. The Great North American temperate rainforest stretches 2,500 miles from northern California to Alaska, making it the largest intact temperate rainforest on Earth. Yet this carbon-dense ecosystem faces ongoing threats from industrial logging, greenwashing campaigns, and policy decisions that prioritise short-term profits over long-term climate stability.Paul shares his journey from camping beneath old-growth Douglas firs as a child to becoming an investigative environmental journalist covering forest issues for over 40 years. Our conversation examines the troubling parallels between the timber industry's tactics and those employed by fossil fuel and tobacco companies. We discuss how scientists like Dr Beverly Law faced persecution for publishing research on how forests benefit the climate. Paul explains the "global blind spot" that has allowed temperate rainforest logging to continue largely unchallenged, even as the international community rallies to protect tropical rainforests. The book reveals how industry-funded research has shaped policy debates and obscured the true climate impact of logging these ancient forests.Despite the sobering realities, Paul offers hope through examples of successful grassroots activism. When thousands of people raised their voices against Drax's expansion into California, the project was cancelled. Our conversation also touches on the dramatic shift in US climate policy under different administrations and what this means for forest protection efforts globally. Paul's advice is clear: to save a forest, you must work at it every day, but to destroy it, you only need to do it once. This episode is essential listening for anyone who cares about climate action, forest conservation, and cutting through corporate greenwashing.Subscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTubeTommy’s Outdoors is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.co.uk The guest featured in this episode paid a nominal guesting fee. This fee did not directly influence the content of the episode. The guest had no editorial control, did not review the episode before publication, and did not influence the questions asked during the interview.

Can we find a middle ground between those who see the EU's wolf downlisting as a catastrophe and those who celebrate it as good news? The debate around wolf conservation in the EU has become frustratingly polarised, with both sides 'crying wolf' about the consequences of changing protection status. It's time to step back and look at the evidence.When dealing with controversial subjects like this, it is important to be factual and follow the evidence. So I was delighted to have the opportunity to talk about it with Dr Hanna Pettersson, one of the most prominent early career voices in interdisciplinary conservation. Hanna is the lead author of a paper titled 'Now What? The Conundrum of Successful Recovery of Wolves and Other Species for European Conservation', co-authored with Professor Erica von Essen, who was also a guest on the acclaimed episode 163.During our conversation, we discuss the success conundrum in conservation, the difference between ecological and social carrying capacity, and why we need to think about future pathways rather than looking back. We also talk about the role of legal hunting in reducing poaching and the importance of working with local communities who have lived alongside wolves for generations. Of course, there are larger systemic issues underneath and we don't shy away from discussing those as well, including inequality as a driver of biodiversity loss.Further reading:Now What? The Conundrum of Successful Recovery of Wolves and Other Species for European ConservationTime to stop crying wolf – on both sides of the debate - Stockholm Resilience CentreSubscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Follow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Instagram or YouTube