7: Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ - Slavery and the Catholic Church

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Colleen Dulle, co-host of the Inside the Vatican podcast, about the Synod on Synodality. I was pretty disappointed when the synod finished and felt like, instead of real change, we just got vibes. Colleen felt differently. So I wanted to ask her about her time in Rome during the final synod meeting, and the final synod document, and where she sees signs of real reform. As always, it was great talking with her.Colleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.LINKSColleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comColleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulleSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseColleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trustingColleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritualABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

A few weeks ago I was invited to be a speaker for a Courageous Conversation event hosted by Awake, A Catholic non-profit whose mission "is to awaken our community to the full reality of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, work for transformation, and foster healing for all who have been wounded."Courageous Conversations is an online speaker series designed to “build community, deepen understanding, encourage conversation, and inspire personal action in response to the complex issue of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.”Last month’s topic was titled "Cultivating a Gospel Response to Trauma" nd was about how to foster trauma-informed church communities and spaces "that are sensitive to the needs of survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic leaders.”I was humbled and honored to be asked to participate in this event. Especially alongside Pete Singer, from the organization GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment), and the author of the excellent article: Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse.Making the Church more trauma-informed is not only important in our pastoral care and evangelization efforts, but I believe having a preferential option for survivors of trauma is an essential aspect of our identity as Christians.I received permission to share the audio recording of this event as a bonus podcast episode. LINKSGive to Awakehttps://www.awakecommunity.org/donateCourageous Conversations Videohttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/courageous-conversation-makes-the-case-for-working-toward-a-trauma-sensitive-churchToward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abusehttps://currentsjournal.org/index.php/currents/article/view/444ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I talked with Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ about his excellent and challenging book, “All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.” In our conversation he presents a brief history of the Church’s involvement with, and teachings about, slavery. Fr. Chris also responds to still repeated misconceptions and revisionist histories about the Church’s participation in the slave trade. Finally, we talk about how this relates to the priest abuse crisis and how confronting the evils in the Church impacts our own faith. Also, I apologize for the audio quality of this episode, I didn’t realize I was using the wrong microphone until after the recording was over. Fr. Chris Kellerman, SJ, is Secretary of Justice and Ecology for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C, where he oversees the U.S. government relations and legislative advocacy operations of the Jesuits. Originally from Arlington, TX, he studied at Texas Tech University, the University of Dallas, and Regis College at the University of Toronto. He is the author of All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.LINKS:All Oppression Shall Cease : A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Churchhttps://orbisbooks.com/products/all-opression-shall-cease-a-history-of-slavery-abolitionism-and-the-catholic-churchAlessandra Harris - The Truth about the Catholic Church & Slavery with Chris Kellerman, SJhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2yRqU-B1oYABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I have a wonderful conversation with Laura Vander Vos to share with you. Laura is the cofounder of TradRecovery, an apostolate that provides resources and community for folks leaving traditionalist spaces and who want to be in full communion with the Church. In this episode we talk about the real harm that so many people have experienced within Traditionalism and the work that TradRecovery is doing to help. Laura is a homeschooled wife and mother, who hails from Montana. She has a background in sacred music and is a self-published author. Laura operates the MissHappyCatholic youtube channel and co-founded the TradRecovery apostolate in 2023.LINKS:TradRecoveryhttps://www.tradrecovery.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I talked with my favorite online cleric, Deacon Steven Greydanus. As a Catholic who cares deeply about Catholic Social Teaching, the deacon’s writings since 2016 have helped make me feel like the Catholic world hasn’t completely gone mad and that I still had a place in the Church. In August he wrote an excellent article titled, “Reflections on voting as a pro-life Catholic.” So I used that article as an excuse to invite him on the podcast to talk about the ways that politics and partisanship have harmed the Church in the US.Steven D. Greydanus has been writing about film since 2000, when he created Decent Films. Since then, he’s written regularly for a number of outlets including the National Catholic Register, Catholic Digest, Crux, Christianity Today, and Catholic World Report. Other bylines include RogerEbert.com, Slate, Bright Wall/Dark Room, and Our Sunday Visitor.SDG has contributed to the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Gale Research), the Encyclopedia of Catholic Social Thought, Social Science, and Social Policy (Scarecrow Press), the T & T Clark Handbook of Jesus and Film (Bloombury Publishing), and Film as an Expression of Spirituality: The Arts and Faith Top 100 Films (Cambridge Scholars). For ten years he co-hosted the Gabriel Award–winning cable TV show “Reel Faith” for New Evangelization Television, and he has appeared frequently on Catholic radio.SDG is a member of the New York Film Critics Circle and a deacon in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Newark. He studied at the School of Visual Arts (BFA, Media Arts), Saint Charles Borromeo Seminary (MA, Religious Studies), and Immaculate Conception Seminary at Seton Hall University (MA, Theology).For over 18 years he wrote regularly for the National Catholic Register and was their film critic for nearly 11 years. His work at the Register was recognized several times by the Catholic Media Association Awards, including first-place wins in 2016 and 2017 and second-place wins in 2015 and 2019.SDG and his wife Suzanne have seven children.LINKS:Reflections on voting as a pro-life Catholic:https://greydanus.substack.com/p/reflections-on-voting-as-a-pro-life Decent Films:https://decentfilms.com/Pope Francis Generation interview with Deacon Greydanus:"https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/deacon-steven-greydanus-watching ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

As we quickly approach another presidential election, I wanted to have Dr. Matthew Shadle on to talk about the USCCB’s voters guide, Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. We discuss the history, development, and purpose of this voters guide. I also share some of my own struggles with this document, including how I see parts of it as incongruent with Pope Francis’s social teaching. After more than sixteen years of teaching theology at Loras College in Dubuque, Iowa and Marymount University in Arlington, Virginia, Dr. Matthew Shadle is the Academic Assessment Coordinator for the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Iowa. He received his B.A. in Religion from Hendrix College in Conway, Arkansas, and his M.A. and Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Dayton, in Dayton, Ohio. He has published Interrupting Capitalism: Catholic Social Thought and the Economy (Oxford, 2018) and The Origins of War: A Catholic Perspective (Georgetown, 2011), as well as numerous essays and articles on Catholic social teaching and its intersection with both fundamental moral theology and the social sciences, with special focus on war and peace, the economy, and immigration. He is currently the editor of Window Light, a Substack newsletter focused on Catholic theology and ministry.LINKS:Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenshiphttps://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf Matthew Shadlehttps://collegeview.academia.edu/MatthewShadle Public Reason as Historical Reason: Post-Conciliar Social Teaching in the United States (academic article by Matthew Shadle)https://www.academia.edu/33591440/Public_Reason_as_Historical_Reason_Post_Conciliar_Social_Teaching_in_the_United_StatesPope Francis Generation interview with Matthew Shadlehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/matthew-shadle-franciss-theologicalABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Dr. Shaun Blanchard about the trend I’ve seen among not only Traditionalist, but also mainstream “JPII Catholics,” to reject the development of doctrine and embrace a type of Catholic fundamentalism.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).LINKS:Shaun Blanchard:https://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgy:https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican II:https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realShaun Blanchard - A Hermeneutic of Reform:http://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/shaun-blanchard-a-hermeneutic-ofABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode of Third Space, Angela Sealana and I have a conversation about what it means to live abundantly as a Catholic today. More specifically, we talk about what hope looks like when it’s not misused to bypass lament, suffering, and injustice.Creator of The Inspired Life newsletter, The Inspired Rosary podcast, as well as Catholic Communicators podcast, Angela Sealana passionately works to build healing bridges by promoting awareness of diverse cultures, chronic illness, and mental health in speaking and writing opportunities - especially within Catholic contexts.Angela holds a B.A. in English Communication Arts concentrating in Marketing and with a minor in Theology, from St. Mary's University in Texas. Her university thesis, "New Media, New Evangelization," one of the first academic papers published on the subject in 2010, was used as a reference by Catholic communities around the world. Angela's work was highlighted in Brandon Vogt's book, "The Church and New Media" (Our Sunday Visitor, 2011).She is the full-time media coordinator for a Catholic evangelization ministry, deep in the heart of Texas. Several of her interns have served the Church in a variety of communication roles.LINKS:The Inspired Life newsletterhttps://theinspiredlife.substack.comCatholic Communicators podcasthttps://inspiredangela.substack.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this first episode of Third Space, I talked with my friend and Pope Francis Generation podcast co-host, Dominic de Souza. Throughout the PFG podcast, Dominic would drop bits and pieces of his own experiences growing up in a radically traditionalist cult, but I didn’t ever get a chance to hear his whole story. Until today.Dominic de Souza is cradle-Catholic passionate about how Faith, history, and science meet in today’s world. Born in New Zealand, studied in Fiji and France, raised in Australia, and now living in the USA. Dominic is riveted by the Catholic frontier between faith, science, and history. He converted from radical traditionalism by a strange route – archaeology, quantum physics, psychoanalysis, mythology, evolution, angeology, and our Holy Father Pope Francis.LINKS:Dominic de Souzahttps://dominicdesouza.com/Smart Catholicshttps://smartcatholics.com/Legand Fictionhttps://legendfiction.com/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Welcome to the Third Space! LINKS:Third Spacewww.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe