From Competitive Intel to Killer Messaging: How to Differentiate Your POV w/ Talya Heller | Down to a T

In this episode, Alex Virden, Product Marketing Lead at Vector, breaks down the "BOO.O" launch that secured a $1M pipeline and a Product Launch of the Year nomination—revealing why a successful pivot requires a "top-to-bottom" rework of your entire business, not just a homepage facelift. We explore why the "beautiful motion" of free trials is often a trap and how to build a brand tone so distinct it makes your product impossible to ignore.WE DISCUSS:How Alex recognized that a simple messaging refresh needed to become a full company repositioningHer approach to customer interviews and how she separated product feedback from real painHow she used a mix of win/loss interviews, prospect conversations, and social listening to build her messaging foundationThe role of a messaging partner (Fletch) in refining and stress-testing the workWhy brand tone and product messaging should mirror each other — not competeHow she tested messaging in the field before the launch went liveWhat she looked for in messaging reactions beyond just "I like it"How to drive messaging adoption without just sending a Slack message and hoping for the bestThe biggest lesson from a launch that, by all accounts, went really wellCHAPTERS:00:00 - Introduction & Welcome00:52 - Running a Vintage Shop Alongside a Startup Career03:15 - How Alex Thinks About Competition in the Vintage Space05:43 - Why Startup Life Requires a Creative Outlet06:33 - The boo.o Launch: Results & Recognition08:20 - How the Repositioning Got Started11:36 - Realizing This Was Bigger Than a Messaging Project13:26 - Convincing the Team to Go All In15:56 - Choosing a Messaging Approach: Jobs to Be Done vs. Use Cases18:05 - Brand Tone and Product Messaging: Two Sides of the Same Pancake20:07 - How Alex Comes Up With Themed Product Updates21:32 - What the Messaging Framework Actually Looked Like23:42 - Where the Messaging Lives: Notion vs. Slides27:17 - Getting Messaging Adopted Across the Team29:50 - Customer Interview Process and What She Was Looking For32:47 - Talking to Closed-Lost Prospects35:42 - How They Tested the Messaging Before Launch37:56 - What Reactions to Watch for When Testing Messaging41:10 - Launch Day: How It Actually Rolled Out43:59 - Biggest Lesson from the Launch45:27 - Closeout Questions47:08 - Where to Find AlexWHERE TO FIND ALEX:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexvirden/Newsletter: Ghosts to Market (Substack)Instagram: @TwinThriftVintageWHERE TO FIND JOSH:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/YouTube: https://youtube.com/@onmessagingRESOURCES MENTIONED:Research Report: State of the SignalsTools: Notion, Asset Mule, Quiller, GammaCompany: VectorSubscribe to On Messaging for more provocative takes on product marketing and GTM strategy.

In this episode, Devon O’Rourke, founder of Fluvio, shares why the push for ultra-simple messaging can actually hurt your credibility with technical buyers. We discuss:Whether Gen AI is a strategic utility or a threat to deep thinking in product marketingWhy the trend of simplistic messaging is a danger zone for sophisticated tech productsWhy it’s dangerous to solely rely on templates for product marketing activitiesWhy LinkedIn influencers could be guiding you down the wrong pathWhat makes a great product marketerWhy go-to-market should be treated as a cyclical, always-on engine rather than a one-time launch event#productmarketing #messaging #b2bmarketing #saasmarketing #marketingstrategyChapters:(00:00) Intro(00:42) Devon’s perspective on Gen-AI: Is it helpful or harmful?(03:57) Lessons from Amazon’s writing culture and the "PR FAQ"(07:09) How Fluvio uses custom GPTs for research and business development(11:07) The Danger Zone: Why simple messaging isn't always effective messaging(16:21) Escaping the competitive herd and finding your unique voice(19:06) The risk of reducing strategic PMM work to rigid templates(27:42) Defining the traits that separate a "good" PMM from a "great" one(34:58) Understanding Fluvio’s cyclical "always-on" go-to-market engine(41:14) The founding story of Fluvio and building a senior PMM consultancy(50:59) Where to find Devon and Fluvio onlineMy biggest takeaways: Where to find Devon:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devon-o-rourke-54028b34/Website: https://www.fluviomarketing.com/ Where to find Josh:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ All On Messaging episodes: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvzzQNjT_hfzRg4xGgHIqcOab9AdXxnpX&si=fhS4k_GINBvYOiai Resources mentioned:Books: Different: Escaping the Competitive Herd by Youngme Moon, Shoe Dog by Phil Knight, The Everything Store by Brad Stone.Tools: ChatGPT (Custom GPTs), Windmill (AI Management Tool).People: Liza Adams (Fractional CMO & AI Advisor).Subscribe to On Messaging:Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Episode SummaryProduct marketers are masters at positioning products, but we often struggle to apply those same skills to their own careers. In this episode, product marketing career coach Yi Lin Pei shares her framework for self-positioning and career differentiation. Yi Lin breaks down the concrete steps to shift from a tactical executor to a strategic growth driver, how to evolve your personal messaging to command executive presence, and why the most important communication skill might be asking "why" before saying "yes".Key TakeawaysPosition Yourself Like a Product: Apply PMM principles to your career. First, define your "destination" (where you want to go and who you want to be). Second, understand why your "target companies" would care about and value you.Shift from Executor to Growth Driver: To make this leap, you must first be exceptional at your foundational skills, like creating messaging that is human and differentiated. Then, focus on building cross-functional influence and thinking like a business strategist by tying your work directly to the company's P&L and growth levers.Evolve Your Language for Leadership: To gain executive presence, you must change your language. Shift from talking about "tasks" and "projects" to discussing "programs," "processes," and "playbooks" that you are building to be scalable for the future.Master the "T-Shaped" Framework: A "T-shaped" PMM has a broad range of expertise across core functions (research, positioning, launches, enablement) but also develops a deep, indispensable specialty in one or two areas, such as competitive intelligence or domain expertise in a technical field like cybersecurity.Tell Your Story (to a 5-Year-Old): If you struggle to tell your own career story, Yi Lin suggests practicing as if you're explaining it to a five-year-old. This forces you to simplify, cut to the chase, and focus on the "why" behind your decisions, which is far more compelling than the "what".Use a Consultative Approach: When pitching an idea to leadership, don't just present one option. Instead, offer 2-3 potential options, present a data-backed analysis of the ROI for each, and then give your recommendation. This changes the question from "Should we support this?" to "Which option should we support?".The Power of Asking "Why": When a manager gives you an urgent, out-of-left-field request, pause before reacting. Instead of saying yes or no, ask questions to understand the "why" behind the ask. This diffuses defensiveness, builds curiosity, and often reveals the true priority (or that the request isn't the right one).Chapters(00:37) Why Yi Lin chose career coaching after a 2020 layoff(04:40) How leaders can make others comfortable coming to them for advice(07:59) Applying PMM principles (positioning & differentiation) to your own career(14:47) The 3-step process to shift from a tactical executor to a strategic growth driver(19:06) How to balance day-to-day tactical work with long-term strategic efforts(23:31) Defining the "T-shaped" product marketer(26:39) The importance of domain experience (and when broad experience is an advantage)(30:55) A simple exercise for PMMs to apply storytelling to their own accomplishments(33:12) Tactics to evolve your personal messaging for leadership and executive presence(40:22) The single most important communication skill for handling urgent requests(44:22) Yi Lin's answer to "What is living all about?"About Yi LinYi Lin Pei is a product marketing consultant and career coach who helps product marketers grow in their careers and advises companies on building strong teams.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/Subscribe to On MessagingSubstack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/

Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛Episode 14: Talya Heller, Owner of Down to a T (https://www.linkedin.com/in/talyahellermba18/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to break down how to weave competitive intelligence into messaging that actually differentiates. We talk about why most companies ignore competition (and why that’s a huge mistake), how to find your real positioning levers, and why product differentiation alone won’t save you. Talya also shares how to enable sales with “champion decks” and persona-specific one-pagers, why no one reads your 10-page messaging doc, and how to make messaging usable across the entire go-to-market team. We even get into localization gone wrong, multi-persona buying committees, and her favorite way to uncover the best customer language.//💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:Why 10-page messaging docs fail How to adapt messaging for multiple personas Talya’s go-to ways to mine customer conversations How to create “champion decks” and persona one-pagersA simple framework for using competitive intel to shape messagingHow to identify the real differentiators that make customers choose youWhy ignoring your competitors is the biggest messaging mistake you can make//🎙️ In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 – Why ignoring competitors is the biggest messaging mistake00:45 – Welcome to On Messaging with Talya Heller, the “Competitive Intel Queen”02:00 – Talya’s career journey: engineer → PM → product marketer06:43 – Why she pivoted from product management to product marketing08:21 – Early impressions of marketers from the PM side09:44 – The #1 messaging pitfall: sounding the same as competitors14:33 – How much differentiation do you actually need?17:45 – Differentiation beyond product: experience, support, and community18:04 – Using competitive intelligence to shape positioning22:55 – Why no one reads messaging docs (and what to do instead)25:42 – Competition is emotional: avoiding bias in research26:09 – Where to research competitors’ ICPs and customers29:42 – How to position messaging across multiple personas36:12 – Equipping your champion to sell internally (champions decks & one-pagers)42:46 – Aligning sales and marketing on messaging and assets47:53 – Simple tools & playbooks for enabling marketing teams55:20 – Localization isn’t translation: global messaging mistakes1:01:18 – One piece of messaging advice to implement tomorrow1:02:36 – What living is all about1:03:22 – How to support Talya + where to subscribe to her newsletter Spill the T//🔦 Where to Find Talya (and more links):LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/talyahellermba18/ Down to a T Consulting: https://www.downtoat.co/ Spill the T Newsletter: https://www.downtoat.co/newsletter //🔦 Where to Find Josh:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696 //Follow On Messaging:Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛#productmessaging #b2bmarketing #productmarketing #podcast

Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛Episode 13: Ryan Yackel, CMO at Databand.ai  (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanyackel/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to share why product marketers make great CMOs and how narrative design can transform product launches. We dig into how he uses storytelling to cut through complexity, why sales enablement is often more about creativity than slides, and how to keep demand gen aligned when the market shifts. Ryan also explains his approach to competitor research using AI tools like Gemini and NotebookLM, the “red box vs. green box” framework he uses with sales teams, and why he believes go-to-market execution beats having the “best” product every time.//💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:Ways to use narrative design in product launchesA very compelling sales narrativesHow to use AI for competitive researchHow product marketing is different at a startup vs. enterprise//🎙️ In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 – The “secret sauce” in messaging: telling a story buyers remember00:35 – Intro to Ryan Yackel, CMO at Data Band01:31 – Why product marketers make great CMOs02:17 – From sales engineer to product marketing leader03:43 – Why recruiters seek CMOs with product marketing backgrounds06:02 – Product marketing as the headlights guiding demand gen08:21 – Analogies that explain the role of product marketing09:36 – Narrative design: framework for product launches12:29 – Case study: Continuous Testing at Tricentis13:26 – Case study: Machine identity management at KeyFactor14:22 – Case study: Data observability at Data Band15:30 – Bringing narrative design into IBM product launches17:44 – Where narratives live: sales decks, messaging docs, and pitches21:36 – Using reference points like Datadog to simplify complex products22:07 – Building narratives for multi-product organizations24:40 – Using AI (Gemini + NotebookLM) for competitive research28:05 – Prompt engineering for category deep dives (Collier Rosin Kranz example)30:12 – Framework mashups: April Dunford + corporate visions + AI research32:27 – The “Red Box vs. Green Box” exercise for sales differentiation36:35 – Teaching sales teams to sell stories, not features38:17 – How messaging shifts from startup to enterprise companies43:28 – Three tactics to win sales mindshare in large enterprises46:52 – AMA sessions, newsletters, and internal podcasts for sales enablement50:11 – Contrarian opinions: AI for messaging, PLG caution, GTM beats product55:46 – Why go-to-market strategy beats having a “better” product58:23 – Ryan’s #1 piece of messaging advice: define your secret sauce1:00:56 – What life is all about: gratitude, faith, and perspective1:03:38 – Where to find Ryan and his children’s book Pancakes and Mr. Bear//🔦 Where to Find Ryan (and more links):LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanyackel/ Why A Product Marketer Should Be Your Next CMO Defeat Your Prospect’s Status Quo with Unconsidered NeedsHow narrative design works in product marketingApril Dunford BooksMy Book | Watch for Free//🔦 Where to Find Josh:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696 //Follow On Messaging:Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛

Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛Episode 12: Madeleine Work, Senior Product Marketing Manager at Chili Piper (https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeleinework/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to break down how to create messaging that reps actually use and customers remember. We talk about defining clear platform messaging, getting internal buy-in without watering it down, and why launches are never really one-and-done. We also dive into sales feedback loops, creative copy that still converts, and how Madeleine uses tools like Gong, Wynter, and Mutiny to test what’s working.//💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:How to A/B test website messagingHow to create continuous feedback loopsGetting internal buy-in on your messagingBalancing creativity and clarity in messagingWhy product launches are on going and why you should repeat yourself//🎙️ In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 – Teaser: How Madeleine crowdsourced and tested messaging across her company00:29 – Intro to Madeleine and what you’ll learn in the episode01:44 – From content to product marketing: how the transition happened03:24 – What she loved (and didn’t love) about content marketing06:01 – The challenge of getting 100% messaging buy-in06:55 – The collaborative H1 test: value, competitor, and persona buckets08:53 – Running messaging through Wynter and Mutiny12:21 – The importance of above-the-fold copy and first impressions14:08 – UI images in messaging: show, don’t tell15:10 – How Chili Piper defined its platform messaging15:59 – “Demand conversion”: the phrase they landed on17:47 – Messaging in a competitive landscape (and naming your competitors)19:32 – How they brainstormed the phrase “demand conversion”21:02 – Creativity vs. clarity: writing how you talk23:44 – “No more complaints about unfair lead distribution”: voice-of-customer in action25:18 – Marketing to marketers: easier and harder26:13 – Why marketers don’t click UTM links—but give amazing form responses28:46 – How Madeleine continuously refines messaging over time29:53 – Sales feedback loops and scathing voice notes30:23 – Refresh cadence: product pages, competitor pages, then restart31:59 – PDF collateral vs. web content: keeping everything updated33:35 – Launches Madeleine’s proud of (and what she learned)35:12 – Why no one noticed the chat launch—and how they relaunched it36:55 – The importance of repetition in product marketing38:33 – Using Gong to track if messaging is landing with reps40:04 – What living is all about: being a little uncomfortable41:28 – Where to find Madeleine and her “Madeleine Love” folder//🔦 Where to Find Emily:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeleinework/🔦 Where to Find Josh:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696 //Follow On Messaging:Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛#productmessaging #b2bmarketing #productmarketing #podcast

Episode 11: Emily Pick, Lead Product Marketing Manager at Clari (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypick/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to dive into platform messaging, tailoring narratives for different buyer personas, and how to create a unified message across multiple products. We also unpack the balance of feature-level messaging, brand consistency, and customer words.//💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:- Influencing the product roadmap as a product marketer- Why most B2B messaging gets stuck in feature-function battles- How to create messaging for buying committees without losing clarity- How to transition from single-product messaging to platform-level narratives//🎙️ In our conversation, we cover: 00:00 – Nobody’s buying a product—they’re buying a solution to their pain00:29 – Intro to the episode and what you’ll learn from Emily01:23 – Emily joins the show and shares her love for messaging02:26 – Why Emily stepped away from business books and back into travel stories03:17 – Backpacking, Rick Steves, and what travel taught Emily06:26 – Travelers, chaos, and the joy of unpredictable experiences07:20 – Introduction to platform vs. product messaging07:56 – The history of Clari and their transition to a revenue platform09:18 – Defining your category: what Clari wants to be known for12:02 – Using positioning as the North Star for platform messaging12:42 – Positioning vs. branding: how Emily differentiates the two13:37 – Platform-first vs. product-level messaging strategy14:08 – Moving from product features to solution-based messaging16:01 – When product-specific messaging becomes important16:54 – Mapping solutions to pains and personas before products17:47 – Aligning product launches to the company narrative18:36 – Crafting baseline and higher-order product messaging19:37 – How Clari avoids building “off-strategy” features19:48 – How product marketers can earn influence on the roadmap21:29 – Bringing market research and analyst feedback to PMs22:57 – Owning collateral and influencing alpha/beta feedback loops23:12 – Building trust with PMs by being useful and aligned24:02 – When Emily starts messaging and enablement for new features24:32 – Using launch tiers and customer impact scores25:56 – Examples: low impact vs. high impact, and how timing shifts28:08 – Why Clari focuses on retention as much as acquisition29:32 – The cost of new customers vs. caring for existing ones30:30 – A call for PMMs to think beyond net-new revenue31:00 – Tailoring messaging for the full buying committee32:22 – Adoption depends on frontline users, not just executives33:18 – Mapping personas to solutions and jobs-to-be-done34:17 – Pre- and post-sale assets for each user type36:45 – Collaborating with customer education to drive product adoption38:39 – Clari’s position in a competitive space—and how to stay ahead39:39 – Winning with relevance when features are at parity40:57 – Creating preference without getting stuck in feature wars42:49 – Signs you’re losing a deal: when the buyer uses your competitor’s language44:34 – Selling against pain instead of relying on features45:55 – How Emily and team enable sales with messaging that resonates48:38 – Why customer words and Q&A insights power better messaging49:41 – Tools Emily loves: Lottable and UserEvidence50:49 – Letting Q&A fuel your copy and message refinement52:04 – Emily’s #1 messaging tip: replace jargon with customer language53:06 – What is living all about? Emily’s personal perspective55:22 – Where to connect with Emily online56:20 – Closing thanks and wrap-up//🔦 Where to Find Emily:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypick/🔦 Where to Find Josh:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696

On the show today, I have Gaspard Pastural, creator of PurpleOceans and a B2B SaaS Product Marketing Consultant. During our conversation, you’ll learn:Why go to market isn’t a one time eventHow differentiate with relevance instead of features & pricingWhy B2B websites should be consumption first, then conversionSales and marketing messaging should be aligned but not identicalIn our conversation, we cover:00:00 – Why most B2B websites fail: lead gen vs. consumption01:36 – Gaspard’s LinkedIn writing process and content philosophy02:32 – The real goal of differentiation: be the most relevant choice04:15 – What “relevance” means in practice: use cases over categories06:06 – Why you’ll never out-feature the gorilla in your space08:05 – The risk of trying to be everything for everyone09:55 – How poor differentiation breaks messaging, positioning, and conversions10:55 – Marketing your difference (not just saying you’re different)11:56 – Sales vs. marketing messaging: aligned, not identical13:00 – The analogy of explaining your job to everyone at once14:07 – Three key differences: who, how, and intent15:34 – Sales is adaptive; marketing is orchestrated16:03 – Homepage strategy: guide consumption, don’t push conversion17:29 – How to enable sales without dictating scripts19:56 – PMMs as collaborators, not message enforcers21:21 – Messaging as a structural alignment challenge22:32 – Why your messaging must support the full buying committee24:48 – Persona-based pages and website structure as messaging tools28:08 – How PMMs can earn internal trust to shift company messaging30:25 – The power of step-by-step change vs. the one-big-pitch trap32:01 – Underrated GTM principle: reverse-engineer your launch33:56 – How to do message testing without budget (and what *not* to do)36:27 – Cheap, scrappy message testing strategies that work38:14 – Why content is a long-term play, and why sales is faster for insights41:17 – Final takeaway: reverse engineer everything to de-risk your work42:53 – What living is all about: “Having no regrets and being proud”45:36 – Where to find Gaspard online//👉 Where to find GaspardLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaspardpastural/Website: https://gaspardpastural.com/ Substack: https://gaspardpastural.substack.com/ 👉 Where to find JoshLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg //Referenced:Gab Bujold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/ Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/ Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/ Folk CRM: https://www.folk.app/ Breakcold: https://www.breakcold.com/G2: https://www.g2.com/ 

On the show today, I have Collin Mayjack, Principle Product Marketing Manager at GoFundMe.Before joining GoFundMe, Collin worked in product marketing at Oncue and Dataro and is the creator of Holy Shift.//In our conversation, we cover:00:00 – Intro: Welcome Collin Mayjack to the show01:33 – From pastor to product marketer: Translating complexity into clarity03:53 – Why side projects make you a better writer and messenger06:17 – The origin of Collin’s 7 messaging principles08:32 – #1: Clear is better than clever (and why most messaging fails here)09:57 – #2: Differentiate or die—how to bring product strengths to the surface10:55 – #3: Jargon is the enemy—cut through corporate fluff11:25 – #4: You can’t say it all—focus on what matters most12:24 – #5: Customers do care about features (with a twist)14:21 – #6: Talk to your champion like a human15:50 – #7: Good messaging flows from good positioning18:22 – Bonus: The best messaging is clear and clever—but clarity wins19:17 – How Collin tests messaging without fancy tools (and why he goes rogue)20:44 – Partnering with PMs to pitch new features to real customers21:43 – Using customer reactions to validate and refine messaging22:37 – Real-world naming feedback: letting customers vote live23:31 – Testing messaging in startups vs. larger companies24:49 – Scrappy tactics: using social, email, and founders to test ideas26:00 – How to choose the right customers for feedback26:58 – The politics of advisory boards and enterprise obsession28:11 – The PMM cheat code: bring the story, get invited to the table29:04 – Balancing product messaging with SEO and brand voice30:33 – Winning influence by starting with positioning, not copy31:31 – Using Emma Stratton’s VBF framework to earn trust and traction33:01 – The “mild sauce” effect: how messaging evolves through compromise33:59 – The power of pen-to-paper: why the strategist shapes the outcome35:45 – Influence, humility, and the politics of feedback36:43 – Why being likable matters more than being right38:10 – How Collin enables the sales team with clear, human messaging39:21 – “Tuesdays with Enablement”: internal sessions that drive adoption40:14 – How Collin builds 30-second sales stories that actually stick41:43 – The James story: an example of sales messaging that works43:07 – Talk tracks over taglines: why real talk wins43:49 – Being active in Slack and jumping on sales calls to support deals44:55 – Lightning round: One messaging tip you can implement tomorrow46:21 – What is living all about? Collin’s personal reflection47:00 – Where to find Collin and lift him up//👉 Where to find CollinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/ Holy Shift Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/company/holy-shift-pod/ 👉 Where to find JoshLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg //🎙️ReferencedAlex Eaton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/ Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/ Gab Bujold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/ Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/ Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/

On the show today, I have Alex Eaton, Director of Product Marketing at UserEvidence.Before joining UserEvidence, Alex worked in product marketing at Help Scout and Lessonly.What you’ll learn:The 3 traits that separate great product marketers from good ones—and why “execution” is the most underratedHow Alex avoided a messaging disaster at UserEvidence—and the simple question that unlocked the right positioningWhy most messaging gets overlooked inside companies—and how Alex ensures people actually use itA tactical breakdown of messaging docs that get read—why yours should be under two pagesThe “gut tension” test Alex uses to know when messaging isn’t ready yet—and how to push past itHow to tailor messaging for multiple personas without breaking consistencyThe role of customer evidence in brand messaging—and why UserEvidence leads with faces, not product shotsHow to enable sales without being the “messaging cop”—Alex’s exact approach to feedback, coaching, and internal buy-inWhat Alex learned from working with messaging consultants like Fletch—and when to bring in outside helpThe mindset shift from “being right” to “driving outcomes”—why collaboration beats ownership in product marketingAnd so much more.//In our conversation, we cover:00:00 – Intro & Welcome00:51 – What Separates Good from Great Product Marketers03:32 – How to Get Teams to Rally Behind You06:19 – The Anxiety of Surface-Level Messaging07:48 – Execution Over Strategy: Getting In the Weeds09:23 – How Alex Nearly Blew the Messaging at UserEvidence12:02 – The Phrase That Almost Made It: "Evidence-Based Content Platform"13:57 – The Simpler, Stronger Message: Customer Evidence Platform14:56 – Rolling Out the Messaging: Site, Deck, Personas, and More15:43 – Connecting Problem and Solution: From Evidence Gap to Platform Fit17:36 – Working With Fletch on Messaging: Why External Voices Matter21:37 – Simplifying Messaging for Global Understanding23:23 – Leading With Customer Stories in Messaging25:51 – Becoming the Best at Customer Evidence—In Their Own Marketing27:31 – Leading With Personas, Not Product28:26 – Why Real Faces > Stock Photography31:32 – The "Two-Page Messaging Doc" Philosophy34:06 – How to Layer in Nuance After the Message Sticks36:24 – Giving Feedback Without Micromanaging Sales41:43 – Enabling Sales to Use the Message Consistently44:53 – Tailoring Messaging for Personas Without Losing Focus50:11 – Final Takeaway: The Power of Gut Tension51:36 – What’s Living All About?53:13 – Where to Connect With Alex//👉 Where to find AlexLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/ 👉 Where to find JoshLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/ Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg //🎙️ ReferencedMark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/ Jillian Hoefer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianmacnulty/ Evan Huck: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhuck/ Ray Rhodes: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-rhodes-a0672568/ Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/ Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/ David Ogilvy: https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X Jason Oakley: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/ UserEvidence: https://www.linkedin.com/company/userevidence/ Lessonly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lesson-ly/ Gong: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gong-io/ Help Scout: https://www.linkedin.com/company/help-scout/ Fletch: https://www.linkedin.com/company/fletch-pmm/