Dr. Kristen Donnelly & Dr. Erin Hinson: The Culture of Burnout

“I don’t want to convince you that whenever we finish working, you should be dancing, pirouetting on clouds in ballet slippers,” host Caitlin Donovan explains on this solo episode of FRIED, where she talks about managing expectations from burnout recovery work, particularly the program FRIED offers lead by her partner Sarah Vosen. In a space that, largely for marketing purposes, will promise that you’ll come out the other side of recovery feeling nothing but joy forever after, Cait offers some refreshing transparency about what she offers, why she specifically only offers short-term help, and the seemingly simple outcomes that will completely change your quality of life. Health, peace, productivity, improved communication–these are all huge things made all the more sweet for having recovered from burnout. Yet, recovery doesn’t mean a life free from problems. Cait explains her reasoning behind only offering short-term coaching and why Sarah stopped offering coaching packages. There is no one, perfect way to be coached or to find your way out of burnout. The best first step is to get clear about your goals and the results you yourself want to achieve. Quotes“I can’t promise you that we’re going to go from burned out to blissed out. I can’t promise you that you’re going to go from burned out to fired up. I can’t promise you that you’re going to go from burned out to completely joyful and fulfilled. I don’t even think that’s what we’re aiming for.” (2:10 | Caitlin Donovan)“This initial three-month kick is just to get you out of the muck.” (3:58 | Caitlin Donovan)“Getting clarity around those goals and what those results should be for you is more important than my telling you you’re going to have fulfillment and be joyful and have bliss.” (6:47 | Caitlin Donovan)“We’re not painting this magical picture of where you’re going to be. I want to share that with you because I want you to know how we’re thinking about it behind the scenes, how we’re thinking about you behind the scenes, and how we want to show up for you as honestly as we can—I mean, this is pretty honest—in a space that often feels a little disingenuous.” (8:06 | Caitlin Donovan) “Coaching, therapy, healing—it’s not magical. It’s messy. It definitely leads to a better life—there’s no way I would want the life I had back then compared to the life I have now. But am I skating through life without problems? No. Do I never feel resentment? Jesus—hell, no. I’m still human. You’re still going to be human after going through this process.” (8:56 | Caitlin Donovan) LinksConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“How are we not supposed to burn out? That’s what our culture wants us to do: produce, make and do until we can’t anymore,” says Dr. Erin Hinson who, with Dr. Kristen Donnelly, joins the FRIED podcast to discuss the origins of burnout culture in the United States. Early religious tenets have formed our attitude toward hard work and individualism, those tenets evolved into modern-day capitalism and the resulting false and damaging beliefs remain hard-baked into the American identity. Drawing from their bestselling book “The Culture of Burnout,” they’ll discuss the dangers of equating hard work with morality, basing one’s self worth on what they are able to produce and the myth of the lone conquering hero. While no one is immune from this type of social conditioning, female-identified and non-binary people tend to be targeted the most by this propaganda. Dr. Erin discusses caregiver burnout, the gender roles we perpetuate that we aren’t even aware of. Dr. Kristen points out the hypocrisy of American culture demanding we be individualistic while also telling us not to trust ourselves and the emotional bonds that are formed when we ask for help. We are not beholden to the stories our culture creates for us. With the tiny changes we make with each new day, we have the chance to write our own.Quotes“There are shades of this in other cultures all over the world, we are never going to say that America is the only culture that has burnout ever because that’s a lie that someone would use to sell more books and that’s not who we are. But what we will say is there’s a specific flavor of it here that’s so tied to the wellness industrial complex and the process of making money for other people that we need to call that out.” (10:25 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly) “How are we not supposed to burn out? We are supposed to burn out because that’s what the culture wants us to do. It wants us to produce until we can’t anymore. It wants us to make, it wants us to do, until we can’t anymore.” (12:12 | Dr. Erin Hinson) “America just thinks the myth of the individual hardworking hero is the archetype we should all live up to, and not only is it a lie, but it kills a lot of us every year.” (14:03 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly) “We are all just figuring it out as we go along and we can ask for help. We have to, because none of us know what we’re doing.” (38:04 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly)“I should figure it out, because I can. I should do it by myself because I don’t want to be a bother. That’s my thing. I don’t want to bother anybody. Everybody else is stressed out; everybody else is busy. I don’t want to be stressful, I don’t want to be a bother. I didn’t realize how deeply ingrained that was until we wrote this book.” (44:33 | Dr. Erin Hinson)LinksConnect with Dr. Kristen Donnelly & Dr. Erin Hinson:https://www.abbey-research.com http://www.instagram.com/abbeyresearch https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristendonnellyphd https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinhinsonphdConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“You’re going to have to surrender and have patience and be ready and willing to be annoyed.” On today’s episode of FRIED, Sarah Vosen and Cait review some of the common reasons why your burnout recovery may not be working, or not working as fast as you’d like. First off—you may be overdoing it, which is the exact kind of perfectionistic approach that burned you out in the first place. You have to be open to doing things differently and going at a slower pace than you may be used to. If you’re expecting to make progress using the usual self-care tricks on Instagram and TikTok, you’re in for disappointment. Instead, Cait and Sarah will share with you what will actually get you back on track to the other side of burnout.Burnout recovery is a convalescent period. Your environment—physical, home, work, family, and relationships— can make or break your process. Sarah and Cait will explain how to put yourself first, why treating yourself in the smallest ways makes a world of difference, and why you shouldn’t do this alone. Sarah will share the physiological change that she describes as “miraculous” and that sped up her recovery journey overnight, and reveal the emotional state that has recently been determined to be worse for your health than smoking. You have to believe there is another, better life waiting for you once you recover from burnout. Join Cait and Sarah as they help you remove the obstacles that may be blocking your path. Quotes“The recovery mode is a healing process. There’s a lot of repair that needs to occur to your body, mind, and spirit in the very beginning. You have to basically convalesce. That’s a tough one to go from running on adrenaline to convalescing. So it’s going to feel like shit, and it’s going to be awkward, and you’re not going to like it and you might not be able to do it at first.” (7:14 | Sarah Vosen and Cait Donovan) “It’s too big of a jump. You go from not having yourself in the equation of your life to trying to be Number 1 in your life? It’s too much change at one time. There’s too much guilt involved in that, there’s too much fear of disappointing all those people you’ve been trying to help for all those years. You’re worried they’re all going to turn on you and so there’s all this negative reinforcement in your mind about giving yourself what you need.” (9:58 | Sarah Vosen)“Small environmental changes, you might not think they matter that much, but they are critical.” (20:56 | Cait Donovan)“We talked about ‘other care.’ Sometimes you have to outsource some of this—and not just coaching and therapy—the physical care of your body has to be outsourced to someone.” (28:31 | Cait Donovan)“Loneliness increases your risk of mortality by 40 percent. I could not believe that statistic when I heard it. Loneliness is now considered more detrimental than smoking.” (31:28 | Sarah Vosen) “Recovery requires taking off the blinders or having someone support you who doesn’t have blinders on who says, ‘Oh, no. There’s a world of possibility for you. Let me offer you an exit pathway from this life with blinders on to one that actually works for you.’” (36:02 | Sarah Vosen) LinksConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“I’m in recovery from recovery,” explains Colleen Kachmann, Certified Master Life and Recovery Coach who joins the podcast to share her story of dealing with alcohol and burnout, and give new insight into the current understanding of and attitude toward addiction. For years, while playing the role of perfect mother, wife, career woman and volunteer, Colleen was also a self-described heavy day drinker. After joining Alcoholics Anonymous she found herself “indoctrinated” into believing that she was powerless over alcohol. An incident at a family dinner led to the realization that actually, we are all in control of ourselves and our lives. Through self-directed neuroplasticity and nervous system regulation, we can change the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. She has since founded “Recover with Colleen” where she teaches women who are “lost in the weeds” with alcohol to pursue mental health, happiness and a connection with their power and purpose rather than sobriety. On today’s episode of FRIED, she’ll describe what she calls “emotional sobriety.” She’ll explain how to develop a growth mindset, break out of victim mentality and learn to stop leading with “I can’t.” She’ll reveal what we’re really afraid of when we start to think of the worst-case scenario in the face of making change and what happens when we deal with “what is” instead of “what if.” It’s not about the alcohol, Colleen explains. Join today’s discussion to take the first step toward standing in your power. Quotes“I raised my children, I taught hot yoga, I taught aerobics, I was a health coach, I was all the things—I volunteered, I worked, I was a good ex-wife and a good new wife and all the things to all the people. So, you can see burnout coming there because I was very perfectionistic about my life. And I had this idea that I was getting away with my drinking.” (4:36 | Colleen Kachmann) “I became a perfect sober person. I was still playing the alcohol game. My life revolved around the topic of alcohol, but I had to switch teams. Now I’m team sober.” (7:09 | Colleen Kachmann)“I believe that when we realize that everything we do is actually a choice, now we can choose from a place of power.” (16:57 | Colleen Kachmann) “We don’t have to make our kids [lives] better. I think the truth underneath that story is we’ve lost ourselves in our kids, it’s been easier to just do the things for everybody else because we can hold our breath longer, and, ‘Oh, look, here’s a bottle of wine. So, I’ll just exchange my needs for some drink tickets, and shut the hell up. I can do that, just give me another drink.’” (28:08 | Colleen Kachmann)“We think we’re scared of having to live in an apartment after we get the divorce from the big house, or that we can’t do things. But actually you’re afraid of the story you’re going to tell yourself, that you’re starting over, that you failed, that you just lost your whole life or everything was meaningless behind you and you’ve wasted your time. It’s those stories that we’re afraid of.” (31:08 | Colleen Kachmann) LinksConnect with Colleen Kachmann:https://recoverwithcolleen.com/ https://www.instagram.com/recoverwithcolleen/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenkachmann/ https://recoverwithcolleen.com/accelerated-recovery-masterclass/6Connect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“Why is it that two people can be in the same exact environment, at the same job, and one person burns out and another person doesn’t?” And not only does that other person not burn out, they thrive?” Well, as it turns out, just like everyone needs a certain amount of sun protection factor (SPF) to protect them from the harmful effects of the sun, so does everyone have their own BPF—burnout protection factor. On today’s solo episode of FRIED, Cait explains how we can build up our own BPFs within the six burnout factors— Work, Self, Health, Family, Overall Culture and Environment. For example, a BPF in the category of work would be feeling like you are well-sourced and well-supported. She’ll share why being in nature, having a regular sleep schedule, and fixing those little things around the house that you put off all do wonders for building up your protection factors. She’ll also explain the importance of sincere communication between family members and why what we think are our protection factors are very often our risk factors. By building your protection factor against burnout, you will find you have more to offer the world. By lifting yourself up, you also lift up those around you, and, ultimately, your community. Quotes“Why is it that two people can be in the same exact environment, at the same job, and one person burns out and another person doesn’t? And not only does that other person not burn out, they thrive.” (2:09 | Caitlin Donovan) “For some reason, those of us who need more burnout protection factors, seem to think we don’t need any protection from anything ever at all and we can do everything ourselves and if we’re just perfect then we’ll be fine. We think that perfectionism and people-pleasing are our burnout protection factors, but in fact, they are burnout risk factors. They create more vulnerability for us.” (6:02 | Caitlin Donovan) “There is zero judgment involved in this. It’s the same as SPF: some people need 4, some people need 50. It’s just your build. It’s fine.” (7:49 | Caitlin Donovan)“During those times when you are sacrificing for something or putting up with something that you are not willing to change, you need to up your BPFs to balance it out.” (17:55 | Caitlin Donovan)Linkshttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/julie-menanno-secure-love-attachment-needs-burnout-and-your-relationships-with-everythinghttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-risk-factors-a-holistic-viewhttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-start-your-burnout-recovery-by-taking-the-good-plateConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“How you take command of the narrative is what’s going to see you through when you begin to determine what parts, if any, of the story you want to tell.” John Neral, executive and career transition coach, and host of the Mid-Career GPS podcast, joins FRIED to discuss how best to address gaps that burnout leaves in your resume when interviewing with a potential new employer. The first step is removing any shame and recognizing your own power in the process—you are evaluating the company just as much as they’re evaluating you. Using the Four Fs—Fit, Function, Finance, Forward—John advises the questions to ask to determine your values and whether they match the company’s, how to negotiate your best compensation package, and why you should be thinking two steps ahead. He’ll tell you when to take the conversation deeper and as well as how to avoid wasting both parties’ time. How do those with rejection sensitivity dysmorphia, or those who are still recovering from burnout create the best outcome for both the short term and the long term? Listen as John tells a story about the rude comment one HR executive made that determined his decision of whether to work with the company and his very New Jersey response in return. Quotes“We grew up thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh. They’re going to bless me with an interview. I have to be good and I can’t offend them and I can’t—we don’t want to offend anyway—but I can’t upset them and if I ask this question, what are they going to think?’ Some of the best compliments, Cait, when I was interviewing for jobs, that I ever got, were when somebody on the interview panel would look at someone and say, ‘I feel like I’m the one being interviewed,’ and I would say, ‘Well, you are.’” (8:17 | John Neral) “Oftentimes we think, ‘Oh, gosh. Now, we’re going to talk about money.’ Now battle lines are drawn, it’s them versus us —no, it’s not. Round the edges off. It’s a conversation. ‘This is what I want. Can we make this up here? What about this?’ If anything, it’s an opportunity for you to get really curious, to know what you want but get really curious because how the company negotiates with you at that point is also going to tell you a lot about their culture.” (27:59 | John Neral)“Oftentimes, job seekers will look at going for a job as an immediate solution or quick fix of getting them out of a situation they’ve been in. ‘I work for a toxic employer. I haven’t had a job, I just have to accept something and move on.’ When people aren’t thinking forward about forward, what happens is this decision becomes very isolative. ‘I’ve checked the box, so now what?’” (32:06 | John Neral)“Career gaps and break are not as stigmatized or biased as what they were pre-pandemic.”(39:56 | John Neral)“This is what I needed, this is what I did, here’s what I learned, here’s what I gained, here’s why this is of value to you. Take that gap and turn it back to, ‘Here’s why I’m a better leader, a better employer, here’s what it is that I’ve done.” (43:00 | John Neral) LinksConnect with John Neral:Website: https://johnneral.comInstagram: https://instagram.com/johnneralcoachingLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnneral/Checklist: https://www.johnneral.com/signupConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

On a recent trip to Thailand, Sarah experienced jet lag that was comparable only to the exhaustion she experienced while deep in the midst of burnout. She highlights that while jet lag might need just a few days of rest to overcome, recovering from burnout—a state of deep energy depletion—requires more time and patience. Sarah offers practical advice that could potentially reduce the recovery time from burnout by up to 80%, emphasizing the importance of setting realistic expectations and how this approach also helps in alleviating fear and uncertainty.Throughout the episode, Sarah explores the principles of Chinese medicine, focusing on the most energizing foods and their preparation to maximize energy recovery. She delves into the Chinese concept of having two internal "batteries" and their locations, ways to enhance the quality of your blood and chi (vital energy), and explains why the heart is considered the central element of one's being. Additionally, Sarah talks about the significance of self-reflection on energy use, the benefits of maintaining a resentment journal, and the crucial step of releasing guilt associated with reaching a state of burnout. She encourages listeners to embrace self-compassion and recognize the potential for improvement, marking the beginning of a journey towards better energy management and self-care. Quotes“Unfortunately, burnout exhaustion is not the kind of exhaustion that a few nights of good sleep or a vacation will make better.” (2:18 | Sarah Vosen)“The Chinese call the heart “the emperor” because they see it as the organ in charge, not the brain.” (7:54 | Sarah Vosen)“Stop for a second and recognize all the times you’ve spent more energy than you woke up with, thanks to caffeine or sheer willpower to keep pushing and going and doing. And then realize that every time you did that and went to bed beyond exhausted, that you actually dug that hole of depletion deeper. Ugh, I know.” (10:53 | Sarah Vosen) “Once I got into the habit of pushing the things that weren’t priority from my schedule, I started to see how those things weren’t priority at all. A lot of them weren’t even necessary for me to do, and a lot of them I never did again.” (11:56 | Sarah Vosen) “Stop and give yourself a hug and acknowledge how much this sucks. And please, borrow my trust that it’s temporary and tell yourself that you will get better, slowly but surely.” (14:41 | Sarah Vosen) LinksThe Resentment Journal: https://www.caitdonovan.com/resentment-journalSleep episode with Cait and Sarah: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sfc-s-burnout-and-sleep-a-chinese-medicine-perspective/id1469939920?i=1000641567682Scheduling acupuncture with Sarah near Minneapolis, MN: https://acusimple.com/access/7008/#/appointments/8888/list/42506/2024-03-14/Connect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“Insecure attachment—period—whatever category you’re in, is 100 percent nurture. One hundred percent. It’s a relationally driven disorder.” Dr. Julie Menanno, author of “The Secure Relationship,” joins the FRIED podcast to talk about relationships and attachment theory. For many of us, our parents or caretakers, failed to meet our needs. To control the resulting anxiety, we form insecure attachment, the variety of which Dr. Julie further explains here. These childhood attachment styles then take a toll on our current relationships as we continue to struggle to get our needs met—or even to understand our needs in the first place—engage in non-nourishing coping strategies, and give of ourselves in a way that leaves us depleted rather than replenished. To be understood is one of our most deep-seated needs. Some of us think we are practicing empathy when actually we have just learned to be hyper-vigilant of others emotions, in order to form our reaction ahead of time. When we make decisions for ourselves and others based on our assumptions of how they feel, we further dysregulate the relationship. Dr. Julie explains a two-fold process for breaking this cycle.On this episode of FRIED, Dr. Julie will share how to create space for pause and why resentment and anger are useful while blame is not.Quotes“The first bit of grace I want you to give yourself today is, if you are a parent or a caregiver and you can be present and secure and balanced 50 percent of the time, you are killing it.” (8:17 | Caitlin Donovan)“It leaves [you] not knowing how to help yourself, never learning how to help yourself in those places. And [when] we don’t know how to help ourselves, we’re going to go into all sorts of ways, junk food ways, to help ourselves that really don’t help us get [our needs met]. Like I said, junk food meaning, yeah, you’re getting the food, but you’re not getting the nourishment. You’re overfed, undernourished.” (11:00 | Julie Menanno) “Everybody’s going around trying to feel safe, trying to not feel alone, trying to not feel rejected, and that’s the vehicle to feeling accepted is understanding, and validation and acceptance. I’m breaking them apart, but they’re all the same glob. It’s de-shaming.” (22:26 | Julie Menanno) “Empathy comes from a regulated place. A balance of head and heart. Empathy does not come from dysregulation and it does not come from emotional cutoff.” (25:29 | Julie Menanno) “No matter what, this work is about a gift to yourself. It’s about you being your best self for you. And it’s hard because we associate self-work and all these ways of showing up as our best self in the relationship with giving to another in this exhausting way.” (39:24 | Julie Menanno)LinksConnect with Julie Menanno:Website: https://thesecurerelationship.comInstagram: https://instagram.com/thesecurerelationshipConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Hey, FRIED fam! On today’s episode of The Burnout Podcast, Cait is answering written questions from bosses and leaders, asking how to deal with burnout while balancing all of the other concerns of their company and employees. How can you maintain a healthy workplace culture while recovering from burnout? How do you deal with employees who punch up out of frustration? What if restructuring the business to promote a healthier workplace results in layoffs? First, Cait makes the distinction between what is and is not a leader’s responsibility. It is their responsibility to implement, enforce and model a healthy and productive workplace culture. It is not their job however, to fix it individually. Hiring an outside party is essential regardless of cost. She reveals one of the biggest drivers of employee burnout, its actual physical effects, and the point at which leaders may just need to get over themselves. As a boss, you’ll learn #straightfromcait how to positively influence company culture so that everyone wins. Quotes“We have to understand that if your workplace culture was healthy, it’s more likely that you wouldn’t have ended up here.” (1:39 | Caitlin Donovan)“You don’t do it alone. You get support. This is something you have to invest in. It might not have been in your budget. And guess what? You have to do it anyway.” (4:21 | Caitlin Donovan) “If you are someone who typically burns out, and you’re a people pleaser and a perfectionist, as a business owner, you’ve likely hired other people who are people pleasers and perfectionists. So, you might have employees who are holding on just to help you out and really they’ve wanted to go for two years.” (5:08 | Caitlin Donovan) “I’m not actually sure that we can challenge the assumption that the burden of setting and resetting the culture rests in the leader, because it does. Leaders have to be the drivers of change and employees can contribute to that but not before the leader sets the tone and the direction. That is literally the job.” (12:25 | Caitlin Donovan) “One of the things during burnout—and this is fascinating—is you lose some of your peripheral vision, actually, physically, lose peripheral vision. This kind of also works in a brain way. You also can’t see solutions that are not right in front of you. So, when you’re burnt out you kind of tunnel vision yourself and it’s really hard for you to see the bigger picture and how everything is interacting.” (14:45 | Caitlin Donovan) Linkshttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/karina-schneider-how-to-prepare-for-your-return-to-work-after-burnout-or-mental-health-leavehttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-what-can-companies-do-to-reduce-burnout-riskhttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-how-companies-can-use-burnout-to-heal-culture-issuesConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“Shame is driving the bus of our lives,” says life coach, keynote speaker, author and “hell-raiser” Andrea Owen, who joins the FRIED podcast. In this episode, Andrea shares a four-step process toward building shame resilience, which she learned while studying under author and professor Brene Brown. Many of the behaviors that we engage in–perfectionism, people pleasing, control– are what Brene Brown calls “the armor”. These tactics are means of avoiding shame. One initial helpful step to building resilience is to become aware of how our shame manifests. Another major step toward building shame resilience is reaching out to others whom you can trust and who have earned the right to hear your story. Andrea and Cait have advice for those who feel they have no one to whom they can reach out. For those who have always been the “shower-upper” in the relationship, they get into the specifics of how to set the groundwork to allow people to show up for you. There is no escaping the feeling of shame. It is a human emotion, like joy or sadness. We all experience it and pretty regularly. Instead, we can build resilience to it, and talking about it, as we are on this episode of FRIED, is also a major part of building that resilience.Quotes“Shame likes to hide. Shame is a solo-preneur It likes to be behind the scenes. It’s like a ghostwriter, almost. It doesn’t like to be named.” (12:04 | Caitlin Donovan and Andrea Owen)“Largely, shame is an unconscious feeling and experience that we have because when it is that way, it’s able to do its job better. Its job is to keep us small; its job is to keep us from connecting with other humans; its job is to keep us in line.” (20:23 | Andrea Owen)“That was sort of the eye-opener for me in my training of, ‘Oh, all of these behaviors that the women in my audience engage with—me, too, by the way— we’re doing that in an effort to avoid shame. Therefore, shame is driving the bus of our lives.” (22:53 | Andrea Owen)“Get very, very familiar, get in bed with those [physical] symptoms so you know when it is happening. One of the goals is that you know when you’re in it, you can become resilient to it.” (31:24 | Andrea Owen)“Like we can talk about joy, like we can talk about gratitude, shame is just another human emotion and experience.” (45:37 | Andrea Owen) Linkshttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/dr-kristin-neff-self-compassion-being-human-and-living-with-an-open-heartConnect with Andrea Owen:Website: https://andreaowen.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heyandreaowen/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyandreaowen/Book: https://andreaowen.com/free Connect with Cait:https://friedtheburnoutpodcast.comhttps://caitdonovan.comBook an Initial Session with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitBook a free 1:1 call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvGet info on FRIED's group program for burnout recovery: https://caitdonovan.com/unfried Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm