Patient-Clinician Communication Guideline Update

Dr. Timothy Gilligan and Dr. Calvin Chou discuss the updated guideline on patient-clinician communication in oncology. They highlight clinical recommendations and strategies on topics such as communication skills and practices that apply at every visit, principles for telehealth interactions, cross-disciplinary communication, facilitating involvement of the patient's support network, discussing prognosis, goals of care, treatment selection – including clinical trials, end-of-life discussions, overcoming barriers to communication, facilitating discussions of cost of care and financial toxicity, mitigating stigma, and setting boundaries with patients. Dr. Gilligan and Dr. Chou also share how clinicians can enhance their communication skills through skills practice opportunities and experiential learning. They discuss how fundamental communication is to optimal patient care and look to the future on how generative AI may impact healthcare communication. Read the full guideline, "Patient-Clinician Communication: ASCO Guideline Update"  TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-26-00118       Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Timothy Gilligan from Taussig Cancer Institute and the Center for Excellence in Healthcare Communication at Cleveland Clinic, and Dr. Calvin Chou from the University of California and Veterans Affairs Health Care System in San Francisco, co-chairs on "Patient-Clinician Communication: ASCO Guideline Update." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Gilligan and Dr. Chou. Dr. Timothy Gilligan: Thank you for having us. Dr. Calvin Chou: Delighted to be here. Brittany Harvey: And then just before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Gilligan and Dr. Chou who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. So then I would like to dive into what we are here really today to talk about. So Dr. Gilligan, this guideline updates the patient-clinician communication guideline that was first published in 2017. What prompted this update and what is the scope of this updated guideline? Dr. Timothy Gilligan: So I think with the first guideline, that was the first draft of it that we published five or six, seven years ago, really we were focused on getting the content right, what was the state of the knowledge at that time, and I was very happy with what came out of that. But when I looked back on it, I thought there were ways we could make it more accessible and more practical. Because what we really would like would be for people to apply what we know and then communicate more effectively with patients and colleagues. And one of the reasons I was really excited on the membership of the panel we had this time was I thought they were very well selected to help us do that, is to really think about what are practical guidelines, practical steps we can tell people to take that will improve their own experience and the experience of patients and the quality of care. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely, thinking about operationalizing that guideline really improves the dissemination and the uptake of these recommendations. So then, Dr. Chou, I would like to review the key recommendations and strategies across the clinical questions that the guideline addressed. I realize today with our limited time we may not be able to go through every recommendation and strategy, so we will start with some of the highlights. First, let's address the highlights of the process of communication with patients and their support networks. This includes the questions that address what communication skills and practices apply at every visit across the continuum of care, principles for telehealth interactions, cross-disciplinary communication, and facilitating involvement of the patient's support network. In your view, what are the most important recommendations across these clinical questions? Dr. Calvin Chou: I think the thing that all clinicians know in their bones that they want to be able to do effectively with patients is to communicate information clearly, as well as to communicate in a way that really deepens the relationship, demonstrates empathy, and also demonstrates understanding bilaterally between the various parties. So the communication guidelines that we established in this group, they are fundamental to communication in all conversations throughout healthcare. And the first guideline talks about how clinicians and their team can communicate effectively with the patient and the patient's support network. And those include things like preparing ahead of time; getting a list of the topics that are important to the patient support network so that we can consider them in the visit; making certain that we are hearing what the patients' and the patients' support networks are saying very, very closely; responding to those empathically; and being able to have conversations about care throughout the visit that demonstrate respect and deepen the trust; and then finally, to have some kind of bidirectional understanding, usually through teach-back, that allow both sides to know that communication has occurred as opposed to just been downloaded. The guidelines also talk about applying these same communication skills throughout telehealth communication - that is both in terms of synchronous communication, audio or video, as well as asynchronous communication, i.e., through secure messaging. We also talk about how we can use these same communication skills to communicate effectively with members of our own team. Interprofessional communication is an important part of all the work that we do, and how we can use these very, very same skills in communication with colleagues, with nursing staff, with social workers, and other allied health professionals. These are all very, very important, crucial members of our healthcare team in the delivery of care to our patients. And that is something that we really need to emphasize throughout to try to bring the best of communication in every conversation that we have. Dr. Timothy Gilligan: I totally agree with that. Those are really important points. When I was looking over it in preparation for this podcast, it struck me that we have a lot of recommendations and a lot of small things that we can do either well or not well. And it reminded me of a quotation from a famous chef, Marco Pierre White, who said that perfection is a lot of little things done well. This guideline has a lot of little things that if you do them well, you get better outcomes. And I think the chef's point was that if you want a really delicious dish, you have to pay attention to all those little details. And I think if people go through the guidelines carefully and apply the skills that are along the lines of what Dr. Chou was talking about, we get better results. And those results are really important results. It is not only patient satisfaction, which is really important, but it is also quality of care and outcomes for patients. It is better medical care. It is a better day for us, we have a better day if we have better conversations. Poor communication creates endless headaches for everybody. What I see in the guidelines is it is a lot of little best practices and it requires discipline to learn those. The good news is none of them I don't think are all that hard. The bad news is doing it consistently well every day requires discipline and practice. And what I would hope for these guidelines is that people will read them carefully and think about what they can do to apply what we know more consistently. And I think the interprofessional communication piece, that was something we added this year, is really critical. Medicine has a bad history of really disrespectful behavior. It was almost normalized that different specialties would make fun of each other, that different professions would talk disrespectfully of each other. And we know now that uncivil behavior results in more healthcare errors. And it is not only bad for our teams and our culture, but it is bad for our patients if we are not communicating well with each other. So I thought it was really critical that we added that piece to the update. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. Those fundamental principles that Dr. Chou outlined are really key across every healthcare interaction, including those interdisciplinary interactions. And as you alluded to, Dr. Gilligan, I think it will really serve clinicians well to review the details and go through every table to read the recommendations and each individual strategy to help them improve their communication in day-to-day interactions. Moving to some of those day-to-day clinical communication scenarios, Dr. Gilligan, I'd like to think through some of those key points. So what is recommended for discussion of prognosis, goals of care, treatment selection, including discussion of clinical trials, and end-of-life discussions? Dr. Timothy Gilligan: So my perspective is that there is a broad theme of flattening the hierarchy that runs through these recommendations and this part of the guideline - that the sections that Dr. Chou just talked about really have a lot to do with the details. What does good communication look like? What are best practices that we can adopt? And I think these other sections are a little bit more, they also have a lot of specific guidelines, but there is a philosophical point that we do better when we talk to the patient at their own level. And we sometimes fail to do that. I remember from about 10 years ago I was in a room with a patient and one of the other doctors said to the patient, "We're going to bronch you tomorrow." And I was trying to think, like, what do they think the patient hears when we use language like that? Like they don't understand what the word means. We are just expecting them to step up to our level. We are not accommodating them, and I think that really interferes with our ability to form effective relationships with patients and communicate clearly. So if we are going to talk about prognosis, goals of care, treatment selection, clinical trials, end of life, the first step for me is that we have to get down to the patient's level, which means listening. We have to ask them what they know, we have to get their perspective. We have to understand what their health literacy level is so that we can have a conversation that takes into account the patient's perspective. And we need to be humble and remember that the patient often has information that we do not have yet unless we ask them and listen to what they say. That is going to change what we think is the best plan of care. And so shared decision-making is really a critical piece of that. One of my favorite trainers who I follow online says, "I make suggestions, you make decisions." And I like to bring that attitude into the room when I talk to patients. It is their life, it is their body, it is their health, it is their decision. It is not my decision. I don't get to tell them what to do. I want to make sure that they make a decision that is based on the best available evidence, but also a decision that is based on who they are and what their values are. And we try to give pointers to how we can have these conversations in a way that is really fully respectful of the patient's autonomy and the importance of the patient's expertise in their own body, their own lived experience. Because there is a risk that we come in with our white coat and we overpower them with our authority, our medical authority, our medical knowledge, and no one likes to be overpowered. And I think we all have a better day if we go in and have a conversation as human beings with each other. Dr. Calvin Chou: I want to underscore this point of having the patient and their support network make the ultimate decisions. Reviewing the evidence from more general literature, it is clear that across demographics that only 10% of patients want us to make decisions for them. 90% of patients want to have at least some say, if not full say, in the decisions that they make, and this is true across age, across gender, educational status, socioeconomic status, veteran status. This is a very, very important point. I think oftentimes we go in thinking we know what's going to happen and we need to make them do that. Thinking about this as a conversation as opposed to a download is an important point. Dr. Timothy Gilligan: And one thing that I think that the guidelines are relevant for here, which is I think one way to achieve honoring the patient autonomy, is to really make a commitment to having a good process, to not be committed to an outcome. So that when we start the conversation, we're not going to say it's a good conversation based on whether it ends up where I wanted it to end up. It's a good conversation based on whether we have a good process, a fair process. And the steps of good communication that are outlined in this guideline help us to establish a good process. And I think if we have a good process, we can trust it will take us to the appropriate outcome, which may be different than the outcome we thought was going to be the appropriate outcome when we started the conversation. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. I think, as you mentioned, tailoring discussions to each individual patient and situation is really critical. And I think in every other podcast episode across guidelines we've really emphasized the importance of shared decision-making. And so talking through the process of it in this guideline will really have impacts across all of ASCO's guidelines. Moving on to the next section of the guideline, this guideline also addresses barriers in the communication process. So Dr. Gilligan, what highlights are there for overcoming barriers to communication, facilitating discussions of cost of care and financial toxicity, mitigating stigma, and setting boundaries with patients? Dr. Timothy Gilligan: Yeah, it's interesting. I want to hear Dr. Chou's perspective on this too. I thought that the communication skills are really important for these conversations, but less powerful or less effective, potentially. For instance, barriers to communication, the big one that comes to mind is language differences. If the patient and the clinician do not share the same language, that results in less good care unfortunately. It results in less good communication. Having skilled translators or interpreters there is essential, and using them with skill is essential, but it does not get us to equality. I mean the best thing for a patient is to have a clinician who speaks their language. Unfortunately, that's not possible. So the second best thing we can do is to have good interpreters or translators to help us work. And then for us to use those people effectively, because oftentimes we cut corners when working with interpreters and shortchange the patient. So it is important to do the best we can. I think it is also important to acknowledge that it's a challenge and no matter how good your communication skills are, it's not going to be the same conversation if you're talking through another person versus directly to the patient. Similarly, with financial toxicity, it is important to talk about it. We need to be open about it. We need to talk to patients about it, but financial stress from healthcare is a real problem, and however well you communicate it, it doesn't make that problem go away. You know, in oncology, our drugs are obscenely expensive, and I can't communicate my way to lower prices. So I can talk about it and legitimize it and empathize, but I feel like I have more power in the other sections to really change the outcome by communicating well than I do with these. But it is important to talk about it. Patients are hugely affected by the cost of care and we need to talk about it with them. I do think for mitigating stigma and setting boundaries, then our communication skills become more powerful. We see everyone in the healthcare system, and when working with individuals who have been subject to stigma because of aspects of their identity, we can help lessen their vulnerability and fear by proactively letting them know that we will strive to avoid perpetuating that stigma, that we will treat them with respect and address them as they wish to be addressed, that we will care for them as dignified and valued human beings. That is not always their experience in the system, but we can choose to be different. We can choose to do better. And our communication skills are important because listening and curiosity are super important in that space. Because if we are talking to people who may be different from us, we need to learn about them by listening and being open and being curious, and replacing, if we have any tendency towards judgment, to replace judgment with curiosity. With setting boundaries, I think it is also really important. I don't think you can show up and be fully present with patients the way I want to, the way we want other people to, if we don't know that there are boundaries. And we know this in other aspects of our care, right? I go into the room and I do intimate physical exams and I ask about intimate aspects of the patient's life. And I'm allowed to do that because there is a non-negotiable barrier to any kind of sexual or romantic contact between me and my patients. We know there's a hard wall there that we don't cross that line, so that when I am doing an intimate exam, we know where that stops and that we're not going to cross boundaries there. But the same thing applies verbally, and I think doctors sometimes and other healthcare professionals sometimes feel like they need to accommodate the patient no matter what. I was hoping the guidelines would send a strong message that, you know, we don't need to put up with disrespectful behavior. That when you go into the room, as a clinician or as a patient, you should be treated with respect. You should feel safe, you should feel like you belong, and if patients are behaving in a way that violates that, then clinicians have a right to speak up and to set limits and to set boundaries. And if we know those boundaries are there, then I think we can lean in closer. If we don't know those boundaries are there, then we kind of have to hold back to protect ourselves. And just to give one of like a million examples you can give, I don't know a woman in healthcare who hasn't had a patient say something sexually inappropriate to them at some point. And that's not okay. I want my colleagues to know that's not okay, and it's okay to set boundaries and they don't have to put up with that. And my hope is that if we know where the boundaries are, then we can step in closer. That's my perspective on these, but Calvin, please, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Dr. Calvin Chou: I want to double-click on everything that you said, Tim. It is so important that we recognize what we have control over and what we don't have control over. And what we don't have control over, for example, language discordance or financial woes of a patient, I have no possible way of controlling that. And so the best I can do in those situations is to sit with them, empathize, and do what I can, whatever power I might have in advocacy or I often refer folks to a social worker that I work very, very closely with, because I have no agency over any of that. At the same time, when we talk about mitigating stigma in healthcare encounters, we have full control over the biases that we have. We may not be aware of them, but we do have control over them ultimately. And so it is up to us really to examine our practices, to see where we have maybe been steered in the wrong direction, where we double down on internal implicit biases that we have carried for our entire lives. And that requires that we approach all of our encounters with everybody in healthcare, with humility, and with an extra eye toward understanding how we are coming across to them, and whether or not at least some of those interactions are infused with bias that we can decrease. And then finally, with the idea of boundaries, there are boundaries in two directions, as Tim was saying a moment ago, that there are boundaries that we must place in between ourselves and patients during examinations and also during interactions. And there's also boundaries that we have to set up that require that we uphold the standards ethically of clinical medicine. And that is, there are certain things- I would never ask a patient out, for example, on a date. And that's an important proscription; that's an important boundary that we must set up between ourselves and patients. Those are clear barriers that we must not breach. There are some barriers that are a little bit less clear. For example, there are some instances where physicians are asking patients who have means to perhaps contribute to a foundation or contribute to the university or to make a large donation to an institution. In some instances, that's a much less clear boundary. For myself, I feel uncomfortable making those kinds of requests, and there are other instances where those requests are actually not just okay to do, but the patient is willing to do those kinds of things. So I think we need to consider that these boundaries are not always set in stone. Sometimes the boundaries move, sometimes the boundaries are different. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. I think this latest question covered a lot of ground, and I think some key points here are that treating everyone with dignity is really paramount to this guideline. Recognizing the challenges even when they're not solvable is really important, such as thinking about financial issues or perhaps not speaking the same language as a patient. And then building trust and mutual respect between patients and clinicians to establish clear boundaries is really important as well. So, I want to thank you both for reviewing at a high level the recommendations and the strategies from this guideline, and I encourage listeners to review the full guideline and tables for all of the recommendations and strategies to implement these clinical recommendations. So, Dr. Chou, this guideline panel also addressed one education question. So, what are the recommendations for effective ways for clinicians to enhance their communication skills? Dr. Calvin Chou: Thanks for asking, Brittany. When we talk about all of these communication skills, Dr. Gilligan and I have talked for a long time about all these individual communication skills. These are not skills that are necessarily naturally formed within us and that we just roll out without any practice. And that's why we both feel, if I can speak for you, Tim, that we both feel that communication skills training, and high-quality communication skills training, is deeply important. This is training that is less about I'm listening to this podcast and therefore I can communicate better, it's more about skills practice opportunities, experiential learning, oftentimes using that horrifying word 'roleplay' that people don't like to think about roleplay before they're in it, but then once they've done those skills exercises they realize how important it is to actually have practiced some of these skills so that when you get into the real situation, you have an approach to it as opposed to trying to just improvise or make it up on the fly. The other aspect of communication skills training that is deeply important is not just forming the words and speaking to somebody else, it also needs to incorporate practitioner self-awareness and situational awareness that allows us to understand what's going on within us emotionally and attitudinally so that we are interacting moment by moment with patients and their support networks in a way that's authentic, that brings the appropriate amount of vulnerability and expertise to deepen trust between all of those relationships. And finally, when we talk about communication skills training, there are ways to do this kind of training that, I've used ChatGPT, for example, when I'm having some difficulty wondering how to navigate a particular situation, sometimes you can use ChatGPT to give you some suggestions on how to approach that interaction. But at the same time, the most important thing is to be able to have really meaningful practice with other people, with other human beings. Because as much as I might interact with a computer, that computer is not a human being. And what we are talking about is interpersonal communication with emphasis on 'person'. And us as human beings, we understand, in a way that ChatGPT probably will never fully understand, the nuances of the emotional reactions and the importance of human connection between people when we talk to each other. And so therefore, if we can't depend on computers to do this communication skills training, we need institutions to emphasize and invest in all of our continuing ability to communicate effectively with everybody in healthcare. This is probably one of the most important outcomes of this guideline, is not just that communication skills are important, and not just that communication skills training is important, it's that we need everybody to invest in everybody's ability to communicate with each other on the highest possible level that we can bring. Brittany Harvey: Yes, I think it's really important that the panel addressed this question, to emphasize that it's not just individual clinicians, but institutions that really need to value communication and this training to make sure that clinicians are being the most effective communicators that they can be. So, I'd like to move on to the next question, and Dr. Gilligan, ask, in your view, what is the importance of this guideline and how will it impact both clinicians and people with cancer? Dr. Timothy Gilligan: So I would build off of what Dr. Chou was just talking about, which is what we're hoping is that it will serve as a resource that will give people interested in communicating better guidance on where to go, what to do, what are the best practices, what do we know at this time. if you want to get better, what are the methods that are going to help you get better. And ideally I hope it will inspire people to want to get better. Communicating is such a fundamental part of our day-to-day work in healthcare that it needs to be something that we're very, very good at. And as professionals we should aspire to be as good as possible. A lot of this stuff is pretty basic, but we forget to do it. When I had young kids and was teaching them to ski, one of the ski instructors said to me once that there were Olympic skiers who trained at the same mountain where my kids were learning. And he said they would go down easy slopes and just practice basic techniques still. They were good enough to ski in the Olympics going at crazy speeds, but they kept going back to their fundamentals. And my son is a serious soccer player and they do role plays in soccer. They practice drills. They have scenarios they know are going to come up and they artificially recreate that scenario and they practice it over and over again. There's a famous line from a college football coach that you don't practice it until you get it right, you practice it until you can't get it wrong. And I think if people would bring that sense of professionalism to communication, it's a lifelong journey. I'm still trying to get better. It requires practice, it requires discipline. There's a lot that we know, but it doesn't happen without practice. And as Dr. Chou was saying, it's a motor skill. You don't learn it by reading about it. You don't learn it by listening to us talk about it. You learn it by practicing it. And I practice with patients. Not in the sense that I'm doing an experiment, but I work on my skills with patients. And I see how it goes. And when things don't go well, I think of what I could have done differently. And when things do go well, I think of what did I do that helped it go well that I need to make sure I do again next time. And I think I'd love to see people adopt an attitude that they want to be fantastic communicators and they want to get better. And I think the guidelines provide a lot of clues and steps to take for all of us to get better. Dr. Calvin Chou: I heard Tim, you talk about communication being a procedure and that we would never think about going into a room and sticking a central line into a patient without having practiced that over and over and over again to get it right. Not to get it right, to never get it wrong, like you were just saying. And so if we think about communication as the most common procedure in healthcare, then it behooves us all to do the best we can with it. It is a frame shift because we are communicating with each other all the time, oftentimes without thinking. And what we're advocating right now is for everyone to really bring it in terms of communication skills in all settings, because the effect of ineffective communication is not necessarily just making people feel bad. As Tim said at the top of the program, it also impinges on quality of care. It's not just the right thing to do, it's the safe thing to do. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. And highlighting the fundamentals here and practicing them as clinicians will improve each healthcare interaction. So then, finally, to wrap us up, Dr. Chou, earlier you mentioned ChatGPT and thinking about maybe some technological advances and how those will impact in the future. What are the outstanding questions and priorities for future research for optimal patient-clinician communication? Dr. Calvin Chou: I think there's a lot we still need to learn about in this very, very nascent time of interacting with generative artificial intelligence. We won't know what things are going to be like probably even tomorrow given the vast advances that AI is allowing us to do. And also, as I was mentioning earlier, what AI can never do is to bring the human element into these interactions. And I think that's part of what, maybe that's a lot of what brings people to healthcare, is if they're in need and they have some physical issue that we need to help them solve, it's not just a physical issue, it also is a deep emotional experience. And we have heard many times now cautionary tales of when AI has led people astray to then, for example, allow them to die by suicide. And that is the last thing that we can allow to happen in healthcare. That is the ultimate low-quality item. We need to make certain that everybody is cared for with high quality and high safety. And we're definitely not there yet with AI. We hope that at some point we'll be able to work with AI in order to bring even better healthcare than we have right now, and I think that has been demonstrated to be possible. That is one major outstanding question that we're all going to have to wrestle with. Brittany Harvey: I think that's absolutely a key point. With generative AI quickly evolving, there need to be guardrails in place. And like any intervention, thinking about how to maximize the benefits of it and reduce the harms to make sure that you're preserving that human interaction and communicating effectively, and that patients can receive their health information in an appropriate way. So I want to thank you both so much for your work to update this guideline, to draft all of these recommendations and the strategies, and work with the entire panel to create this excellent product. So thank you for all that work and thank you for your time today, Dr. Chou and Dr. Gilligan. Dr. Timothy Gilligan: Thank you. Dr. Calvin Chou: Thank you, Brittany, so much. Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev and Dr. Manish Shah join the podcast to discuss the updated guideline on immunotherapy and targeted therapy in unresectable locally advanced, advanced, or metastatic gastroesophageal cancer. They share first-line and subsequent-line recommendations for both gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma and esophageal squamous cell carcinoma based on actionable biomarkers including PD-L1 expression, MMR and/or MSI, CLDN18.2 expression, and HER2 status. They note the importance of the algorithms and tables in the guidelines that provide visual illustrations and quick reference guides of the evidence-based recommendations. They also comment on ongoing and recently presented trials that may impact future guidelines in this space. Read the full guideline, "Immunotherapy and Targeted Therapy for Advanced Gastroesophageal Cancer: ASCO Guideline Update" at www.asco.org/gastrointestinal-cancer-guidelines" TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/gastrointestinal-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02958      Timestamps ·       00:00 – 02:15 Introduction and Overview ·       02:16 - 08:20 First-line treatment for patients with pMMR/MSS, HER2-negative gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma ·       08:21 –10:29 First-line treatment for patients with pMMR/MSS, HER2-positive gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma ·       10:30 – 14:39 First-line treatment for patients with dMMR/MSI-H, gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma ·       14:40 – 18:03 First-line treatment for ESCC ·       18:04 – 22:04 Second- and third-line therapy for gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma and ESCC ·       22:05 – 24:38 Importance of guideline ·       24:39 – 27:45 Outstanding questions and future research   Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts.   My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev from the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai and Dr. Manish Shah from Weill Cornell Medicine, co-chairs on "Immunotherapy and Targeted Therapy for Advanced Gastroesophageal Cancer: ASCO Guideline Update." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Rajdev and Dr. Shah. Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: Thank you. Dr. Manish Shah: Thank you for having us. It is wonderful. Brittany Harvey: And then just before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Rajdev and Dr. Shah, who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. So then to dive into what we are here today to talk about, Dr. Shah, I would like to start first with what prompted the update to this guideline, which was previously published in 2023, and what is the scope of this updated guideline? Dr. Manish Shah: Yes, terrific. So even in the last few years, the pace of drug development in gastroesophageal cancers has just been astounding. So, what prompted this guideline is actually the practice-changing results for a new biomarker, CLDN18.2 hat was based on the GLOW and SPOTLIGHT studies, as well as a practice-changing study in HER2-positive disease where we added pembrolizumab to trastuzumab and chemotherapy for tumors that are HER2-positive and PD-L1 CPS 1 or greater. And then there were also new studies and new approvals in esophageal squamous cell cancer that you will hear about as well. So there were several studies, overall more than 5,000 patients were reported on, and that led to several new therapies, new indications, and it really necessitated this guideline. Brittany Harvey: Excellent. It is great to hear about all of these exciting updates in this space. So then to next review the key recommendations of this guideline by clinical question that the expert panel addressed. So, Dr. Rajdev, what is the recommended first-line treatment for patients with proficient mismatch repair, microsatellite stable, HER2-negative gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma? Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: Thank you for that question. So historically, we have sort of used fluoropyrimidine and platinum doublets, which yielded a survival of about one year. More recently, immunotherapy and targeted therapy options have improved outcomes in patients with advanced esophageal and gastric adenocarcinoma, as well as squamous cell carcinoma. Patients with gastric and GE junction adenocarcinoma have a high rate of actionable alterations, so it is imperative that physicians test the following biomarkers upfront so that it can help guide therapy. The markers recommended by the ASCO panel are HER2, MMR or MSI, CLDN18.2, and PD-L1. And also, it was recommended to use NGS if feasible in this patient population. HER2, as we know, is expressed in about 15% to 25% of patients; PD-L1 expression occurs in about 80% of patients; MSI-high, deficient MMR is present in about 5% to 8% of patients; and CLDN18.2 expression is present in about 40% of patients. There is, of course, biomarker overlap. About 13% to 22% of CLDN18.2 patients are also PD-L1 positive. For patients with pMMR or microsatellite stable HER2-negative disease with PD-L1 expression greater than 1 and absence of CLDN18.2, the panel recommended a first-line therapy with fluoropyrimidine and platinum-based therapy in combination with immunotherapy. These recommendations stem from large phase 3 trials, and the agents approved in the United States are pembrolizumab, nivolumab, and tislelizumab. It has been shown that immunotherapy benefit is greater in patients with higher PD-L1 expression, and it is not possible to comment on the individual PD-L1 cutoff scores and sort of identify the optimal PD-L1 cutoff score that sort of balances benefits and harms. But what is recommended is that immunotherapy-based treatments can be offered in patients with a CPS score of greater than 1. With regard to the choice of immunotherapy agents, that is pembrolizumab, nivolumab, or tislelizumab, these agents are considered to have similar efficacy, and the selection of an agent could be based on dosing schedule, cost considerations, toxicity, and the method of administration. Typically, clinicians should avoid withholding the start of chemotherapy while awaiting biomarker testing, depending on the clinical scenario. Now, for patients with pMMR microsatellite stable disease that is HER2-negative with PD-L1 expression less than 1 and positive CLDN18.2 expression, zolbetuximab-based treatments or in combination with chemotherapy is recommended, and this is based on two global phase III randomized controlled trials, the GLOW and the SPOTLIGHT. And across both studies, the hazard ratio for the overall survival was 0.78, and similarly, there was also an improvement in progression-free survival favoring the zolbetuximab group compared to the chemotherapy group alone. An important note is that nausea, vomiting is commonly associated with zolbetuximab-based treatments, and the panel recommended prophylactic antiemetics, adjusting zolbetuximab infusion rates, pausing infusion temporarily, using non-prophylactic antiemetics, and hydration intravenously prior to discontinuation of zolbetuximab-based chemotherapy. So effective handling of the GI-related symptoms with zolbetuximab is recommended prior to discontinuation of therapy. Now, for patients with pMMR microsatellite stable HER2-negative gastric, GE junction adenocarcinoma with PD-L1 expression greater than 1 and CLDN18.2 positivity, the ones with the dual expression with CLDN18.2 as well as PD-L1 chemotherapy, the choice of therapy can be based on the degree of PD-L1 expression, the toxicity profile, the burden of symptoms, and the anticipated improvement in symptoms associated with response to treatment, the patient comorbidities, the prior medical and treatment history. So this decision needs to be made on a case-by-case basis, and these are some of the factors that we suggested that could potentially influence the choice of therapy. For patients with pMMR microsatellite stable disease that is HER2-negative and a PD-L1 expression less than 1 and an absence of CLDN18.2 expression, first-line therapy with fluoropyrimidine and platinum-based chemotherapy is recommended. So you can see we have segmented out patients based on PD-L1 expression, pMMR and microsatellite stable disease expression, and also based on CLDN expression. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. And that first point you noted, I think is really important, that biomarker testing is really critical for treatment decision-making in this space. So then the next subgroup of patients that the panel looked at, Dr. Shah, what first-line therapy is recommended for patients with proficient mismatch repair, microsatellite stable, HER2-positive gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma? Dr. Manish Shah: So this was an update from a few years ago. So we have known for 15 years now that if you are HER2-positive, you should get trastuzumab plus chemotherapy. That was based on the ToGA trial. And the update now is based on a trial called KEYNOTE-811, where it examined the addition of pembrolizumab to trastuzumab and chemotherapy versus trastuzumab and chemotherapy, and there was a progression-free and overall survival benefit. And again, here, the biomarkers are important. If your CPS PD-L1 is less than 1, we would not recommend Pembrolizumab in that setting, so you would still get trastuzumab and chemotherapy. But if it is 1 or greater, the PD-L1 CPS score, then we do recommend pembrolizumab unless there is a contraindication to immunotherapy. The take-home message really is from the onset of diagnosis, please check your biomarkers. And I will just, it is worth repeating, it is important to check your PD-L1 status, HER2 status, mismatch repair status, and CLDN18.2 status. And then the optimal therapy, and it is outlined in the publication, is really biomarker-driven. We know that if we are able to hit the target that is overexpressed, we are going to have a better outcome. And Dr. Rajdev did mention where there is overlap, there can be a lack of data, and that is where we are with both PD-L1 positive and CLDN positive. Here we do have data in HER2-positive cases where if you are both HER2-positive and PD-L1 positive, you would combine trastuzumab and pembrolizumab for the best outcomes. Brittany Harvey: Understood. I really appreciate you detailing what is most important for each individual biomarker combination that patients may have. So then following that, Dr. Rajdev, what does the expert panel recommend for first-line treatment for patients with esophageal squamous cell carcinoma that is not amenable to definitive chemoradiation? Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: There are three phase III randomized clinical trials that have influenced practice in patients with esophageal squamous cell carcinoma examining the benefit of immunotherapy in this patient population. The RATIONALE-306 was a randomized trial of tislelizumab plus chemotherapy with platinum and fluoropyrimidine or paclitaxel versus placebo with chemotherapy. And then you have the KEYNOTE-590, which compared pembrolizumab plus chemotherapy versus chemotherapy alone. And then you have CheckMate-648, which included comparisons of nivolumab plus chemotherapy versus nivolumab plus ipilimumab or chemotherapy. And the primary endpoints for these studies were overall survival, and they did look at subgroups with PD-L1 expression. They used TPS score greater than 1% in CheckMate-648 and PD-L1 CPS greater than 10 in KEYNOTE-590. The bottom line is that the overall hazard ratio for overall survival across this patient population was 0.72. So clearly, there is benefit in patients that express PD-L1 CPS greater than 1 for benefit for the addition of immunotherapy. Now, the benefit again in patients with a PD-L1 expression less than 1 remains limited, and so the panel has made a recommendation for using immunotherapy in combination with platinum-based chemotherapy in patients with a PD-L1 greater than 1. Again, we know that it is hard to make recommendations on what PD-L1 cutoffs are recommended in this patient population, meaning that should it be limited to patients with a PD-L1 of 1 to 4 or greater than 10? I think that the general consensus that has been gleaned from the data is that the higher the PD-L1 expression, the greater the benefit. I do want to comment on another option that is available in patients with squamous cell carcinoma compared to adenocarcinoma, and that is the combination of nivolumab and ipilimumab. Now, in CheckMate-648, nivolumab with ipilimumab was also recommended as a treatment option in patients that have a PD-L1 score of greater than 1. There was a survival benefit demonstrated with this combination compared to chemotherapy alone. And an important observation in this study is that, although there was a slightly increased rate in early death, but there was really no significant difference in PFS and OS compared to chemotherapy alone. Importantly, the treatment appeared to be pretty well tolerated by the study population. There was a notable difference in the objective response rate, which was 35% in the nivolumab plus ipilimumab group compared to patients receiving nivolumab and chemotherapy, where it was 53%. So superiority is, so the importance of chemotherapy in patients with esophageal squamous cell carcinoma is to be noted. However, there is no difference in overall survival and progression-free survival when using the combination of nivolumab and ipilimumab, and thus it affords a chemotherapy-free option for this patient population with esophageal squamous cell carcinoma and a CPS with a score of greater than 1. Brittany Harvey: Understood. I appreciate you reviewing the evidence underpinning those recommendations as well. So then the next patient population that the guideline panel addressed, what first-line therapy is recommended for patients with deficient mismatch repair, microsatellite instability-high, gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma or esophageal squamous cell carcinoma? Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: The rate of MSI-high expression is about 3% to 7% across different studies. Now, the KEYNOTE-158 was a tumor-agnostic study in patients with non-colorectal cancers, and again, the problem with the MSI-high population, given that it is so rare, the numbers in the individual studies are fairly small. But consistent outcomes do emerge, indicating high response to immunotherapy. So in KEYNOTE-158, a response rate of about 46% was noted. The number of patients was small, it was about 24. In CheckMate-649, which is a study of chemotherapy plus or minus nivolumab in patients with advanced gastric adenocarcinoma, there was again a very small number of patients, and patients that were MSI-high or deficient MMR did experience substantial benefits with the addition of immunotherapy, with hazard ratios in the order of about 0.38. In KEYNOTE-062, again, it was a very small number of patients, again about 6% or so, and similar to CheckMate-649, a substantial benefit was noted in combination with chemotherapy, but also there were benefits noted with pembrolizumab alone. The RATIONALE-305 again was a study of tislelizumab in combination with chemotherapy and similarly showed benefits to the combination of chemotherapy plus immunotherapy in this patient population. I think that we are all aware of the dramatic benefits of immunotherapy in this particular subset of patients, deficient MMR MSI-high, and also we have seen in CheckMate-649 they did have a subset of patients that received nivolumab and ipilimumab. And in this patient population, they noted unstratified hazard ratio of 0.28. So I think that the overall consensus is that immunotherapy is a very important treatment modality in patients with deficient MMR MSI-high disease, given that a lot of the trials in gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma have utilized chemotherapy-based options, that is certainly a recommendation of the panel to use chemotherapy in combination with immunotherapy. However, on a case-by-case basis, the panel recommended immunotherapy alone as well, and given the high response rates noted in trials across different diseases as well as noted in this disease as well. Brittany Harvey: Certainly. And I appreciate you both for reviewing these first-line recommendations. So moving to later lines of therapy, Dr. Rajdev, what recommendations did the expert panel make for second or third-line therapy for gastroesophageal adenocarcinoma and esophageal squamous cell carcinoma? Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: So, I think that the RAINBOW trial that investigated the utility of the addition of ramucirumab as second-line therapy has been around since 2014, and those results have led to the addition of ramucirumab to taxane-based therapy in the second-line setting. Based on the utilization of oxaliplatin and platinum-based therapy in the front-line setting, there may be patients that have an underlying neuropathy, and so we wanted to really include treatment options for this patient population so that an agent that is less neurotoxic could also be recommended in combination with ramucirumab. The RAMIRIS trial is one such trial where ramucirumab was combined with FOLFIRI, and it demonstrated benefit in combination with ramucirumab. So we have listed that as a potential treatment option for patients in the second-line setting who may have an underlying neuropathy or even for whatever reason that based on the toxicity profile, that needs to be the preferred option by a physician, that recommendation is new from the older guidelines that we have. With regard to the utility of PD-1 inhibitors, there really has been no benefit noted in the second-line setting with regard to overall survival or progression-free survival, so no recommendation is made for that option. I think an important study that has been recently presented is the DESTINY-Gastric04 trial, which really has been practice-changing and has led to the recommendation for trastuzumab deruxtecan in patients that have HER2-positive metastatic gastric or GE junction adenocarcinoma. Now, this is a phase III trial in patients who retained HER2-positive disease after progressing on front-line trastuzumab-based treatments, and the comparator for this trial was trastuzumab deruxtecan versus ramucirumab plus paclitaxel. There was significant improvement and progression-free survival in patients that received trastuzumab deruxtecan. The patients that were excluded from the trial are patients that have pulmonary problems, interstitial lung disease; that is one of the toxicities of this particular agent, and close monitoring and prompt initiation of therapy such as glucocorticoid treatment in patients who develop this toxicity was also highlighted by the panel. So to summarize, the new guidelines highlight the possibility of FOLFIRI plus ramucirumab as a second-line option and then trastuzumab deruxtecan as a later-line option in patients that still retain HER2 expression. And that is very important because the trial did retest patients whether they expressed HER2. As we know, in a substantial number of patients, there is downregulation of HER2, and there is emerging data that the benefit for subsequent HER2-directed therapies is best noted in patients that still retain HER2 expression. Brittany Harvey: Great. So as our listeners have heard, there are many recommendations and new treatment options for advanced gastroesophageal cancer. Dr. Shah, earlier you highlighted the importance of biomarker testing, but I would like to hear in your view, what is the importance of this guideline and how will it impact both clinicians and patients with gastroesophageal carcinoma? Dr. Manish Shah: So as we have discussed throughout this podcast, the treatment for gastroesophageal cancer, both adenocarcinoma and squamous cell cancer, is increasingly complex, increasingly biomarker-driven. And I think the value of the guideline is to place all of that into context. So it provides the data for why certain biomarkers are important, what therapies should be indicated. Not only that, but if you are able to review the guideline, it provides the details of each of these studies and summarizes them in a meta-analysis fashion to sort of give you the context, because sometimes the individual studies can be maybe a little bit discordant or confusing and the guideline attempts to harmonize all that. And then also, I think the tables are very, very interesting because they give you actual numbers in terms of how many patients over a thousand would this benefit or how many patients over a thousand would this cause harm in terms of nausea, vomiting, or other things like that. So it gives you context for helping clinicians and patients weigh the potential benefits of the novel treatment strategies against the potential adverse events. And then finally, the guideline does also provide an algorithm that you are able to follow based on the biomarkers, and those are in figures 4 and 5. So I think overall, it is a very comprehensive guideline. It intends to make more manageable a very complex subject, and you know, I really encourage our listeners to review it after listening to the podcast. Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: If I can add to that, I think that what is also really good about the guidelines is there are quick summaries. So if someone is busy in the clinic, of course, there is the opportunity to review the data supporting the guidelines in great depth in the manuscript, but what is also really good is that there are good summaries. In the event that you are very busy, you can easily identify what the recommendations should be for that particular patient based on these summaries. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. Listeners are encouraged to review the full guideline, including those tables and figures that may be more helpful when they are looking for something quick to look at in the clinic as well. So, as you both mentioned, there have been a number of recent practice-changing trials in this area. So I imagine there is still a lot of ongoing research as well. So Dr. Shah, what are the outstanding questions regarding treatment options for patients with locally advanced unresectable, advanced, or metastatic gastroesophageal carcinoma? Dr. Manish Shah: I think we touched upon it a little bit. The guidelines are based on the data available, and they are primarily examining one novel therapy with chemotherapy in a specific biomarker population. But as you know, the biomarkers are not either/or; you are not either CLDN18.2 positive or PD-L1 positive. A portion of patients could have dual biomarkers, and you know, I think that we are generating data on how to manage those patients. At the recent GI Symposium in January this year, the ILUSTRO trial was presented by Dr. Shitara, which looked at combining zolbetuximab and chemotherapy with immunotherapy for dual-positive biomarkers, and that is leading to a phase III study that has begun to enroll. So unanswered questions are: how do we manage dual-positive biomarkers? The other thing that was mentioned is that the current data for mismatch repair deficiency involve chemotherapy plus immunotherapy. Only squamous cell cancer is there a study with a positive non-chemotherapy kind of backbone, that is CheckMate-648 that Dr. Rajdev mentioned. As we move forward, it will be good to get data on non-chemotherapy options in certain biomarker-positive populations. And then finally, another update, which is likely to be practice-changing, is the HERIZON-GEA-01 study that looked at zanidatamab, which is another biparatopic antibody that targets HER2, and that is likely to change practice. And as that data gets published, we may look to even do a rapid update for the current immunotherapy and targeted therapy guideline that is just being published. Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: So, if I can add to that, there are numerous ADCs that look very interesting. There are bispecific antibodies; in fact, the zanidatamab is a bispecific antibody showing improved activity in patients with HER2-positive disease. So I think there are studies from Asia looking at CLDN CAR T-based therapies. So, I think that there are a lot of novel agents and a lot of excitement in the field. We know that the bemarituzumab study, unfortunately, the FGFR2 inhibitor failed to demonstrate any benefit, but I think that there are other agents that are being explored, so there are newer targets, newer agents, ADCs, bispecifics that could potentially change the field in the future. Brittany Harvey: Yes, we will look forward to the data to address these unanswered questions and new agents and inform future guideline updates. So, I would like to thank you both for all of your work to review the evidence here and update this important guideline, and for your time today, Dr. Rajdev and Dr. Shah. Dr. Lakshmi Rajdev: Thank you. Dr. Manish Shah: Thank you. Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/gastrointestinal-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Dr. Bishal Gyawali and Dr. Tessa Cigler share the new, comprehensive, evidence-based update of the ASCO guideline on the use of hematopoietic colony-stimulating factors in patients with cancer. They discuss recommendations on primary prophylaxis, secondary prophylaxis, and treatment of febrile neutropenia along with stem cell mobilization, efficacy, safety, duration, dosing, and administration of CSFs – including biosimilars. They highlight where it is appropriate to use a CSF, and importantly, when not to use a CSF. They touch on the significance of individual patient considerations and cost implications, and future work to refine the risk factors for the development of complications of febrile neutropenia. Read the full guideline, "White Blood Cell Growth Factors: ASCO Guideline Update" at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02938     Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Bishal Gyawali from Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, Canada, and Dr. Tessa Cigler from Weill Cornell Medicine in New York, New York, co-chairs on "White Blood Cell Growth Factors: ASCO Guideline Update." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Gyawali and Dr. Cigler. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure. Dr. Tessa Cigler: Hi there. Nice to be here as well. Brittany Harvey: Great. And then before we discuss this guideline, I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Cigler and Dr. Gyawali, who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. So then I'd like to dive into the guideline that we're here today to talk about. So first, what prompted an update to this guideline on the use of hematopoietic colony-stimulating factors in patients with cancer, and what is the scope of this updated guideline? Dr. Bishal Gyawali: The last version of the guidelines from ASCO on this topic was back in 2015, so it has been more than a decade since ASCO had a guideline on the use of G-CSF in patients with cancer receiving treatment. So it was due for an update because there has been a lot more evidence based on not necessarily new drugs, but evidence for proper timing of these agents and the duration of these agents, as well as there have been a lot of new biosimilars, and there are questions about are these biosimilars equivalent or how do we choose among these different options. One is that content of the evidence that has evolved over time in the last decade, but also I think the last time we had these guidelines, the ASCO guidelines were not incorporated to have those evidence GRADE tables. So the quality of the ASCO guidelines itself has evolved over the years, so we wanted to have a new version of the guideline that includes not only the new evidence, but also contains those evidence GRADE tables that will help to quantify the benefits. And so I think it was high time, and even more than that, the newer ASCO guidelines for any guideline, they also include considerations of cost, access, equity, and all these factors that were not included in the previous version of the guideline. So I think it's only natural that with time the guideline should also evolve. Dr. Tessa Cigler: I agree completely, and just as a framework, as we all know, neutropenia and its complications, including febrile neutropenia and infections, are still an important toxicity of many myelosuppressive chemotherapies. And these neutropenic complications do require prompt evaluation and treatment and often hospitalization, and we know that hematopoietic colony-stimulating factors, which I'm going to refer to as growth factors, can reduce the duration and severity of neutropenia and the risk of febrile neutropenia, so it remains an important topic in the practice of clinical oncology. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It's an important topic for both clinicians and for patients who are receiving treatment for their cancer. And as you said, there was a substantial amount of literature to review here and updating everything to be in line with the GRADE evidence rating system, so there was a lot of work that you both put into this. So then next, I'd like to review the key recommendations of this guideline by clinical question. So first, what factors did the expert panel identify that should influence the decision to administer primary prophylaxis of febrile neutropenia with a CSF? Dr. Bishal Gyawali: Yeah, so I think that constitutes one of the most important recommendations in our guidelines about primary prophylaxis with G-CSF. And this is important because not only it's about when to use it, it's also about when not to use it, as in the ASCO "Choosing Wisely" campaign has also made some recommendations about this. So our guideline recommendations are also aligned with that. So first of all, we recommend that primary prophylaxis with G-CSF is recommended when the risk of febrile neutropenia because of the chemotherapy regimen is equal to or more than 20% unless an alternative chemotherapy regimen with comparable efficacy and safety that does not need G-CSF is available. And the quality of evidence to make this recommendation is high, so we give a strong strength of recommendation for this. Having said that, even for patients where the risk of febrile neutropenia is not necessarily 20%, it's a little lower, but because of other patient-related factors, the patient is at a higher risk of complications from febrile neutropenia, such as age, comorbidities, and other factors, in such case primary prophylaxis with G-CSF should be offered. And we also make a recommendation that if G-CSF is not affordable or available, then antibiotic prophylaxis can also be offered, but the evidence quality for this is low, and the strength of recommendation is very conditional. A couple of things to highlight here would be that, I think Dr. Cigler can attest to that, we ran into lots of problems about finding the data for the evidence base to say what are the patient-related factors that actually make them at a higher risk of febrile neutropenia, you know, like how did that 20% benchmark come about? Why 20%? Or when we say even if it's less than 20%, if based on other comorbidities, if the risk is higher, we tried to dig into that evidence. For example, we're talking about our "Box 1" in the guideline, what is the evidence for each item we have included under that "Box 1"? And we tried to do a lot of search to find the evidence for that, and some of them do have strong evidence, and that will tie into our future research ideas as well. And some of them actually don't have such solid evidence too, so that was one of the reasons why we ran into lots of problems about how do we quantify whether someone is at a high risk of febrile neutropenia and where that 20% benchmark comes from. Dr. Tessa Cigler: And definitely, because there's not very clear data, our guidelines definitely leave room for physician discretion in all these situations. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. I find that in a lot of these guidelines the key point is that there's a lot of shared decision-making with patients after talking through what risk factors they may have and what is best for them in their individual clinical scenario. So then moving on to secondary prophylaxis, what factors did the expert panel identify that should influence the decision to administer secondary prophylaxis of febrile neutropenia with a CSF? Dr. Tessa Cigler: So for patients who've already experienced a neutropenic complication from a previous cycle of chemotherapy, the question is which patients should then receive prophylactic G-CSF for subsequent cycles of chemotherapy. And without a lot of evidence again to guide us, the panel really felt strongly that secondary prophylaxis should be used when a treatment delay or when a reduced dose of chemotherapy would be thought to compromise cure rates or survival outcomes. We do note that in many situations, certainly a dose reduction or a delay would be a very reasonable alternative or an additional strategy to G-CSF administration. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: Yeah, I think it's more like if there is going to be compromise in outcomes without using G-CSF, as in if we can't maintain the dose intensity and that's going to lead to inferior outcomes, then we should. But if we can reduce the dose intensity and treatment frequency and still have the same outcomes, then I guess in simple words, we're just trying to say use it when it's absolutely needed, or you can also look into other alternatives that might not need G-CSF but you could maintain the same outcomes. Brittany Harvey: Understood. It's helpful to review those options for clinicians and showing that there's not just one way to address potential neutropenic complications for later cycles of chemotherapy. So then following those recommendations for prophylaxis, what does the expert panel recommend regarding CSFs for the treatment of febrile neutropenia? Dr. Bishal Gyawali: This is an important question because this ties strongly with the "Choosing Wisely" campaign. In other words, primary and secondary prophylaxis we talked about when CSF should be used; here we make a sort of negative recommendation in that we say when CSF should not be used, because this is where we see most overuse or overtreatment with G-CSF. So first, we say that we should not be using a CSF routinely simply because a patient has neutropenia. If they are afebrile but they only have neutropenia, we recommend against using CSF just to boost neutrophil counts; that's not a meaningful metric. Then the second recommendation we make is CSF should not be routinely used as an adjunctive treatment with antibiotic therapy for patients with fever and neutropenia. So the first one was neutropenia, no fever, don't use it. The second one is okay, there is neutropenia and fever, but the treatment for that is use of antibiotic therapy, and so in such situations routinely we should not be using G-CSF just to boost the neutrophil count. And that is tied on to the third recommendation where if the patient has fever and neutropenia but is also at a very high risk for infection-related complications or who have other prognostic factors that we think will lead to poor outcomes for the patient, then in such situations, a CSF can be used as an adjunctive treatment. But we talk about the data in the manuscript, but the data show that the most that this will do is reduce the days of hospitalization by a couple of days. It actually does not have any data that it's going to improve the mortality rates. So as of now, we use the word "may be offered," it's not "should be offered," it's "may be offered" if there are other factors that we think will make the patient at the very poor risk of mortality outcomes, and the evidence quality here therefore is low and our strength of recommendation is conditional. And we also have a box that lists those items that we think might be associated with poor prognosis for the patients, but again the data for those, are they really hard evidence? No. And that is also tied with our future research recommendation that we should study more about these factors that might lead to these poor outcomes. Dr. Tessa Cigler: And again, allowing for discretion of the treating physician. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It's just as important to know when not to use CSFs routinely, and those risk factor boxes that you mentioned are available in the full manuscript along with the full list of recommendations, and our listeners can refer to that; a link will be in the show notes of the episode . Dr. Tessa Cigler: Just so you know, the panel, we really discussed those criteria a lot and agonized over them and gave you our best recommendations. Brittany Harvey: Definitely, and it sounds like there was varying degrees of evidence to support a lot of those risk factors, and so it's really important that the evidence supports those, but also there was expert consensus of the panel in reviewing each of those factors individually to come up with recommendations that can be applicable for all clinicians. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: If I may add, we're proud of our panel because I think our panel is quite inclusive of people representing different specialties within cancer care, as in we had radiation oncologist, we had infectious disease expert, pharmacists, and most importantly, we also had patient partners. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. Having a multidisciplinary panel is really important for each and every guideline. So then, this is probably relevant now, but addressing a few more specific sections addressed in the guideline, what is the role of CSFs as adjuncts to progenitor cell transplantation? Dr. Tessa Sigler: Great question, and so, as solid tumor oncologists, Dr. Gyawali and I really leaned heavily on our hematology experts within the panel. The panel decided that a CSF should be used alone after chemotherapy or in combination with a CXCR4 inhibitor to mobilize peripheral blood progenitor cells. Clearly the choice of mobilization strategy depends on the type of cancer and the type of transplantation. The panel noted that a CSF should be routinely administered after autologous stem cell transplantation to reduce the risk of severe neutropenia, and that a CSF may be administered after allogeneic stem cell transplant to reduce the duration of severe neutropenia. Again, this last recommendation has not a lot of evidence to support it, and so we kind of tempered our language that it may be administered or can be considered based on clinical judgment of the physician and the clinical status of the patient. Brittany Harvey: And that really highlights the need for a multidisciplinary panel, because as you are solid tumor oncologists, you need the hematologists to make recommendations for all sorts of patients and make sure that these guidelines are comprehensive.   So then moving on to another smaller subset population, for patients receiving concomitant chemotherapy and radiation therapy, are CSFs recommended? Dr. Bishal Gyawali: I think there is very little evidence for patients who are receiving radiation therapy alone, so there is no evidence to suggest the use of CSF in patients with radiation therapy alone. The bigger question is in patients who are receiving both chemo and radiation together, chemoradiotherapy. In those patients, up until now, the classical recommendation has been to avoid G-CSF use. I think in our updated guidelines we discuss a couple newer trials that are trying to address this issue, but in the totality of evidence, we still stick with the same recommendation as before, which is CSFs are not recommended in patients receiving concomitant chemotherapy and radiation therapy, especially those involving the mediastinum because the biggest evidence of harm is for these patients. Dr. Tessa Cigler: I agree completely. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. It's important to recognize when that balance of benefits and harms leans more towards harms, and so that this should not be recommended for those patients. So there are several different CSFs that are recommended in the guideline, including biosimilars. So do the recommended CSFs differ in efficacy or safety? Dr. Tessa Cigler: So as supported by evidence, and the panel all agreed, that the various forms of CSFs, including the biosimilars, really have the same evidence for efficacy and for safety, and that the choice of agent really should depend on cost, availability, accessibility, patient convenience, and sometimes disease subtypes and treatment regimens. But, in essence, these can be used interchangeably without concern for efficacy or toxicity differences. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: I completely agree. I think in terms of efficacy outcomes, I don't think there is anything to choose between these agents. The choice between these agents would largely depend on different patient and treatment-related factors: cost, availability, affordability, feasibility. We even discuss things like where does the patient live, as in how frequently the patient can commit to the cancer center, and we also discussed things like even for the daily shots of filgrastim, patients can be taught and they can get it by themselves at home. So we discussed all these factors, but in a nutshell, the choice within these agents primarily depends not on efficacy factors, but simply based on all these other factors that are equally important but which can lead to informed decision-making about what is best for a given patient. But we mention it explicitly that the biosimilars, there is nothing to choose between them, especially the biosimilars; it's about price competition and what you can get at an affordable rate. Brittany Harvey: Understood. It's great to have many different options for patients so that there's something that can work for them based off access, cost, and all these factors that you listed. As you mentioned, it may be easier for some patients to get their treatment at home rather than in clinic, and so having different options and reviewing those with patients is very important. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: As we are having this conversation, I'm thinking that we might be a very unique guideline in that I don't think in many other settings you have this many options that you are asking about, you know, choices between equally good options and making decisions based on cost. I don't think there are any other areas in oncology where we have the privilege of making these decisions based on cost and convenience and all these factors, as well as we might be one of those guidelines where we have, as discussed before, so many recommendations about when not to do things and trying to promote judicial use of treatments. Dr. Tessa Cigler: As you might imagine, our panel discussions were very lively. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: Yes. But Dr. Cigler, do you recall any other guideline where there is so much discussion about when not to use things and how we have so many biosimilar options and we can choose the one that's most appropriate? I don't recall any other. Dr. Tessa Cigler: I agree with you. Brittany Harvey: It's certainly a unique guideline in that regard. So we'll move into the last clinical question that the expert panel addressed. But what does the expert panel recommend for the initiation, duration, dosing, and administration of CSFs? Dr. Bishal Gyawali: Yeah, I think there has been some new data in this regard that were not available in the previous guideline. For example, we have new trials testing a shorter duration of filgrastim injections compared to the standard of care. So we have some data, we call this 'de-escalation of treatment'. So we have more data supporting de-escalation of treatment. We have some data for lower dose of pegfilgrastim, we have data for lower duration of filgrastim, we have also some new data about timing of treatment, as in there has been some newer data presented about the relationship of timing of the drug and the frequency of adverse events from G-CSF such as bone pain. There is also the question about, for patients who don't live near the cancer center, can they get their pegfilgrastim shot on the day of chemo while they are in the cancer center? So all these questions that are very pragmatic and important questions, but were not answered before, we're glad that we had more evidence to talk about all these factors and give a more solid recommendation to our users of the guideline. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. And listeners can review the full list of dosing and administration recommendations in Table 2 in the guideline, and that will be linked in the show notes of the episode. So then I really want to thank you both for reviewing all of these recommendations. There's certainly a large amount of clinical questions and recommendations that you went through. I'd like to next ask, in your view, what is the importance of this updated guideline and how will it impact both clinicians and patients? Dr. Bishal Gyawali: I think the importance of this updated guideline is that, as mentioned before, we talk about newer data that have come up with regards to not just the most important two questions as in when to use it as primary prophylaxis and when to use it as secondary prophylaxis and when to use it as treatment, but also with regards to the duration and timing and dosing and multiple options and how these all factors as well as patient-related factors should be combined to make an informed decision, the most appropriate decision for the patient. And as mentioned before, we have the GRADE tables that were not in the previous version of this guideline. So I think even those users that are familiar with the 2015 guideline, I think they will find very novel content in this new updated guideline, and they will find it useful for their practice. I would encourage the readers to not only read the headlines of the box recommendations, but also read the full text of these guidelines because we have worked really hard to incorporate the latest evidence and also interpret them contextually. The discussion regarding de-escalation, patient considerations, cost implications; usually, people just skip these portions when they read a guideline. But I think these are also one of the most important paragraphs in our guideline, so they have been written with very careful thought, and I think reading the whole guideline is very much worth your time. Dr. Tessa Cigler: As you can imagine, I agree completely, having just spent several months thinking about these guidelines and all their nuances. Brittany Harvey: Certainly, this guideline is definitely a very comprehensive update, and that nuance in the manuscript is really important for clinicians to understand and read through and understand when it's appropriate to make certain decisions. So then to wrap us up, I'd like to ask, what are the outstanding questions and active research areas regarding the use of white blood cell growth factors in patients with cancer? Dr. Tessa Cigler: As you all know from clinical practice and that we've said several times already in this podcast is that the risk factors for the development of complications of febrile neutropenia are still not clearly worked out. And one of the things that is, I think, really needed in clinical practice is the development of predictive algorithms or biomarkers to really allow us to understand who might be more at risk and to allow for the clinician to be able to tailor the use of G-CSF as needed. Brittany Harvey: Yes, and so we'll look forward to future updates in this space to inform new recommendations and an updated guideline in the future. So I want to thank you both so much for your work to develop this comprehensive guideline. It was certainly a lot of effort, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Gyawali and Dr. Cigler. Dr. Tessa Cigler: Oh, my pleasure. It's nice to be here and to speak with you all. Dr. Bishal Gyawali: Yeah, it was great to speak with both of you but also through you to the audience, and we had a great time. Thank you. Brittany Harvey: And then finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Dr. Sonam Puri discusses the full update to the living guideline on stage IV NSCLC with driver alterations. She shares a new overarching recommendation on biomarking testing and explains the new recommendations and the supporting evidence for first-line and subsequent therapies for patients with stage IV NSCLC and driver alterations including EGFR, MET, ROS1, and HER2. Dr. Puri talks about the importance of this guideline and rapidly evolving areas of research that will impact future updates. Read the full living guideline update "Therapy for Stage IV Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer With Driver Alterations: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2026.3.0" at www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02822    Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Sonam Puri from Moffitt Cancer Center, co-chair on "Therapy for Stage IV Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer with Driver Alterations: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2026.3.0." It's great to have you here today, Dr. Puri. Dr. Sonam Puri: Thanks, Brittany. Brittany Harvey: And then just before we discuss this guideline, I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Puri, who has joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. So then, to dive into the content that we're here today to talk about, Dr. Puri, this living clinical practice guideline for systemic therapy for patients with stage IV non-small cell lung cancer with driver alterations is updated on an ongoing basis. So, what data prompted this latest update to the recommendations? Dr. Sonam Puri: So Brittany, non-small cell lung cancer is one of the fastest-moving areas in oncology right now, particularly when it comes to targeted therapy for driver alterations. New data are emerging continuously from clinical trials, regulatory approvals, real-world experience, which is exactly why these are living guidelines. The goal is to rapidly integrate important advances as they happen, rather than waiting for years for a traditional update. Since the last full update of the ASCO Stage IV Non-small Cell Lung Cancer Guideline with Driver Alterations published in 2024, there have been seven new regulatory approvals and changes in first-line therapy for some driver alterations. [This version] of the "Stage IV Non-small Cell Lung Cancer Guidelines with Driver Alterations" represents a full update, which means that the panel reviewed and refreshed every applicable section of the guideline to reflect the most current evidence across therapies including sequencing and clinical decision-making. This is to ensure that clinicians have up-to-date practical guidelines that keep pace with how quickly the field is evolving. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. As you mentioned, this is a very fast-moving space and this full update helps condense all of those versions that the panel reviewed before into one document, along with additional approvals and new trials that you reviewed during this time period. So then, the first aspect of the guideline is there's a new overarching recommendation on biomarker testing. Could you speak a little bit to that updated recommendation? Dr. Sonam Puri: Yeah, definitely. So the panel has discussed and provided recommendations on comprehensive biomarker testing and its importance in all patients diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer. Ideally, biomarker testing should include a broad-based next-generation sequencing panel, rather than single-gene tests, along with immunohistochemistry for important markers such as PD-L1, HER2, and MET. These results really drive treatment decisions, both in frontline settings for all patients diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer and in subsequent line settings for patients with non-small cell lung cancer harboring certain targetable alterations. Specifically in the frontline setting, it helps determine whether a patient should receive upfront targeted therapy or immunotherapy-based approach. We now have strong data that shows that complete molecular profiling results before starting first-line therapy is associated with better overall survival and actually more cost-effective care. Using both tissue and blood-based testing can improve likelihood of getting actionable results in a timely way, and we've also provided guidance on platforms that include RNA sequencing, which are specifically helpful for identifying gene fusions that might be otherwise missed with other platforms. On the flip side, outside of a truly resource-limited setting, single-gene PCR testing really should not be routine anymore. This is what the panel recommends. It's less sensitive and inefficient and increases the risk of missing important actionable alterations. Brittany Harvey: Understood. I appreciate you reviewing that recommendation. It really helps identify critical individual factors to match the best treatment option to each individual patient. So then, following that recommendation, what are the updated recommendations on first-line therapy for patients with stage IV non-small cell lung cancer with a driver alteration? Dr. Sonam Puri: Since the last full update in 2024, there have been four additional interim updates which were published across 2024 and 2025. Compared to the last version, there have been several updates which have been included in this full update. One of the most important shifts has been in first-line treatment of patients with non-small cell lung cancer harboring the classical, or what we call as typical, EGFR mutation. The current version of the recommendation is based on the updated survival data from the phase III FLAURA2 and MARIPOSA studies, based on which the panel recommended to offer either osimertinib combined with platinum-pemetrexed chemotherapy or the combination of amivantamab plus lazertinib in the first-line treatment of classical EGFR mutations. And these recommendations, as I mentioned, are grounded in the results of the FLAURA2 and MARIPOSA trials, both of which demonstrated improvement in progression-free survival and overall survival compared to osimertinib alone in patients with common EGFR mutations. That being said, the panel actually spent significant time discussing the toxicities associated with these treatments as well. These combination approaches come with higher toxicity, longer infusion time, increased treatment frequency. So while combination therapy is now recommended as preferred, the panel has recommended that osimertinib monotherapy remains a reasonable option, particularly for patients with poor performance status and for those who are not interested in treatment intensification after knowing the risks and benefits. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It's important to consider both those benefits and risks of those adverse events that you mentioned to match appropriately individualized patient care. So then, beyond those recommendations for first-line therapy, what is new for second-line and subsequent therapies? Dr. Sonam Puri: So this is a section that saw several major updates, particularly again in the EGFR space. The first was an update on treatment after progression on osimertinib for patients with classical EGFR mutation. Here the panel recommends the combination of amivantamab plus chemotherapy, and this recommendation was based on the phase III MARIPOSA-2 trial, which compared amivantamab plus chemotherapy with chemotherapy alone with progression-free survival as the primary endpoint. The study met its primary endpoint, showing an improvement in median PFS with the combination of amivantamab plus chemotherapy compared to chemotherapy alone. And as expected, the combination was associated with higher toxicity. So, although the panel recommends this regimen, the panel emphasizes that patients should be counseled on the side effects which may be moderate to severe with the combination therapy approach. In addition, a new recommendation was added for patients who are not candidates for amivantamab plus chemotherapy. In those cases, platinum-based chemotherapy with or without continuation of osimertinib may be offered, and the option of continuing osimertinib with chemotherapy was recommended and supported by data from a recently presented phase III COMPEL study, which randomized 98 patients with EGFR exon 19 deletion or L858R-mutated advanced non-small cell lung cancer who had experienced no CNS progression on first-line osimertinib, and these patients were randomized to receive platinum-pemetrexed chemotherapy with osimertinib or placebo. Although this study was small, it demonstrated a PFS benefit with continuation of osimertinib with chemotherapy, and this approach may be appropriate for patients without CNS progression who prefer or require alternatives to more intensive treatment strategies. Next was an update on options for patients with EGFR-mutated lung cancer after progression on osimertinib and platinum-based chemotherapy. Here the panel recommended that for patients whose disease has progressed after both osimertinib and platinum-based chemotherapy, a new drug known as datopotamab deruxtecan can be offered as a treatment option. And this treatment recommendation was based on evaluation of pooled data from the TROPION-Lung01 and TROPION-Lung05 study, in which in the pooled analysis about 114 patients with EGFR-mutant non-small cell lung cancer were treated with Dato-DXd, 57% of whom had received three or more prior lines of treatment, and what was observed was an overall response rate of 45% with a median duration of response of 6.5 months. So definitely promising results. Next, we focused on updates to subsequent therapy options for patients with another type of EGFR mutation known as EGFR exon 20 insertion mutations. In this section, the panel added sunvozertinib as a subsequent line option after progression on platinum-based chemotherapy with or without amivantamab. Sunvozertinib is an oral, irreversible, and selective EGFR tyrosine kinase inhibitor with efficacy demonstrated in the phase II WU-KONG6 study conducted in Chinese patient population. In this study, amongst 104 patients with platinum-pretreated EGFR exon 20 mutated non-small cell lung cancer, the observed response rate was 61%. Staying in the EGFR space, the panel added a recommendation for patients with acquired MET amplification following progression on EGFR TKI therapy. In these situations, the panel recommended that treatment may be offered with osimertinib in combination with either tepotinib or savolitinib. As our listeners may know, MET amplification occurs in approximately 10% to 15% of patients with EGFR-mutated non-small cell lung cancer when they progress on third-generation EGFR TKIs, and detection of MET amplification is done with various methods, such as tissue-based methods like FISH, NGS, and IHC, as well as ctDNA-based NGS with variable cut-offs. Over the last few years, several studies have informed this recommendation. I'm going to be discussing some of them. In the phase II ORCHARD trial, 32 patients with MET-amplified non-small cell lung cancer after progression on first-line osimertinib were evaluated, where the combination of osimertinib plus savolitinib achieved an overall response rate of 47% with a duration of response of 14.5 months. More recently, the phase II SAVANNAH trial reported outcomes in 80 patients with MET-amplified tumors after progression on osimertinib, and in this patient population, the combination of savolitinib and osimertinib achieved an overall response rate of 56% with a median PFS of 7.4 months. And lastly, the phase II single-arm INSIGHT 2 trial assessed the efficacy of osimertinib plus tepotinib in patients with advanced EGFR-mutant non-small cell lung cancer who had disease progression following first-line osimertinib therapy. And in this study, in a cohort of 98 patients with MET-amplified tumors confirmed by central testing, the overall response rate with the combination was 50% with a duration of response of 8.5 months. So definitely informing this guideline recommendation. Next, we had an update on recommendation in patients with ROS1-rearranged non-small cell lung cancer. For patients with ROS1-rearranged non-small cell lung cancer, the panel recommended specifically for patients who progressed after first-line ROS1 TKIs, the addition of taletrectinib as a new option alongside repotrectinib. And this recommendation was based on analysis of the results of the TRUST-I and TRUST-II studies, which showed that amongst 113 tyrosine kinase inhibitor-pretreated patients, taletrectinib achieved a confirmed overall response rate of 55.8% with a median duration of response of 16.6 months and a median PFS of 9.7 months, a very promising agent. Finally, for patients with HER2 exon 20 mutated non-small cell lung cancer, the panel added two new oral HER2 tyrosine kinase inhibitors, zongertinib and sevabertinib, as options in addition to T-DXd and after exposure to T-DXd. These recommendations are based on early phase data from two trials: the phase I Beamion LUNG-01 study, which evaluated zongertinib, and the phase I/II SOHO-01 study that evaluated sevabertinib. In this study, zongertinib demonstrated an overall response rate of 71% in previously treated patients, with an overall response rate of 48% amongst patients who had received prior HER2-directed ADCs including T-DXd. Sevabertinib in its early phase study showed an overall response rate of 64% in previously treated but HER2 therapy-naive patients, and an overall response rate of 38% in patients previously exposed to HER2-directed therapy. The panel believes that both agents had manageable toxicity profile and represent meaningful new options for this patient population. Brittany Harvey: Certainly, it's an active space of research, and I appreciate you reviewing the evidence underpinning all of these recommendations for our listeners. So, it's great to have these new options for patients in the later-line settings. And given all of these updates in both the first and the later-line settings, what should clinicians know as they implement this latest living guideline update, and how do these changes impact patients with non-small cell lung cancer? Dr. Sonam Puri: Some great questions, Brittany. I think for clinicians when implementing this update, I think about two practical steps. First is reiterating the importance of comprehensive biomarker testing. That is the only way to identify key drivers and resistance mechanisms that we are now targeting. And second, picking a first-line strategy that balances efficacy and toxicity and patient preference for your specific patient. I think informed decision-making, shared decision-making is more important than any time right now. It has always been important, but definitely very important now. For patients, this guideline brings recommendations on more personalized treatment options for both first-line and post-progression settings, which potentially means better outcomes. But it is also very important for our patients to continue to have informed conversations about side effects, time commitment, and what matters most to them with their providers. The panel in this version of the guideline specifically acknowledges the real-world barriers that prevent patients from receiving guideline-concordant therapy, including challenges with access to comprehensive molecular testing and treatment availability, and the panel emphasizes on the importance of shared decision-making, and we provide practical discussion points to help clinicians navigate these conversations with the patient. In addition, the panel has also addressed common real-world clinical complexities, such as treating elderly or frail patients, managing multiple chronic conditions, considerations around pregnancy and fertility, and certain disease scenarios such as oligoprogression or oligometastatic disease. And where available, the guideline summarizes this existing data to support informed individual decision-making in these complex situations. Brittany Harvey: Shared decision-making is really paramount, especially with all of the options and weighing the risks and benefits and considering the individual circumstances of each patient that comes before a clinician. We've talked a lot about all of the new studies that the panel has reviewed, but what other studies or areas of research is the panel examining for future updates to this living guideline as it continues to be updated on an ongoing basis? Dr. Sonam Puri: Yes, definitely, so much to look forward to, right? Looking ahead, the panel is closely monitoring several rapidly evolving areas that are likely to shape future updates of the guideline. This includes emerging data from ongoing later-phase studies, particularly the studies that are evaluating these new targeted agents moving to earlier lines of therapy, alongside studies evaluating additional combination strategies or more refined approaches to treatment sequencing. We're also closely watching advances in biomarker testing, the evolving understanding of resistance mechanisms, development of new targets, and promising therapeutic agents. I think ultimately the living guideline exists to help clinicians and patients navigate this rapidly evolving field, and we would like to ensure that scientific advances are rapidly translated into better, more personalized patient care. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. We'll look forward to those updates from those ongoing trials and future areas of research that you mentioned to provide better options for patients with non-small cell lung cancer and a driver alteration. So I want to thank you so much for your work to rapidly and continuously update this guideline, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Puri. Dr. Sonam Puri: Thanks so much. Thanks so much for the opportunity. Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. There's also a companion episode with Dr. Reuss on the related living guideline on stage IV non-small cell lung cancer without driver alterations that listeners can find in their feeds as well. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

Dr. Joshua Reuss is back on the podcast to discuss the full update to the living guideline on stage IV NSCLC without driver alterations. He discusses the new evidence and how this impacts the latest recommendations on first-line and subsequent therapeutic options. Dr. Reuss emphasizes the need for shared decision-making between clinicians and patients. He shares ongoing research that the panel will review in the future for further updates to this living guideline, and puts the updated recommendations into context for clinicians treating patients with stage IV NSCLC. Read the full living guideline update "Therapy for Stage IV Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer Without Driver Alterations: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2026.3.0" at www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines" TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02825    Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Joshua Reuss from Georgetown University, co-chair on "Therapy for Stage IV Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer Without Driver Alterations: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2026.3.0." It is great to have you back on the show today, Dr. Reuss. Dr. Joshua Reuss: Happy to be here, Brittany. Brittany Harvey: Just before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Reuss who has joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. Dr. Reuss, this living clinical practice guideline for systemic therapy for patients with stage IV non-small cell lung cancer without driver alterations is updated on an ongoing basis. So, what prompted this latest update to the recommendations? Dr. Joshua Reuss: Our committee is tasked with making routine updates to the living guidelines and really keeping them living, right? So, evaluating new data as it is coming in to see, is this practice changing? Is this data that should inform and potentially alter our guideline recommendations so that practitioners and other care providers could really make the best treatment decisions for their patients? So that is something that happens on a more routine basis, but periodically, we are tasked with performing a more comprehensive update of our guideline where we really evaluate every one of our point recommendations, the data associated with these recommendations, to be sure that these are up to date, these are comprehensive, and to see if we need to alter anything in the language of these updates. Brittany Harvey: Excellent. Thank you for providing that background. And yes, this is truly a comprehensive update that goes through all the latest literature. Given that, I would like to review what has changed and what is new in the recommendations. So, what are the updated recommendations on first-line therapy for patients with stage IV non-small cell lung cancer without driver alterations? Dr. Joshua Reuss: So there are two main guidelines that we recommend from this panel. One is a driver mutation-positive guideline and the other is a driver mutation-negative guideline. And I think on first blush, one might look at kind of the recent flurry of approvals and new data and say, well, all the excitement, you know, is in the driver mutation-positive guideline. But I would say that the driver mutation-negative guideline is equally as important and really has several unique challenges associated with it. You know, first and foremost is that there are really a multitude of regimens that can be considered for any one patient. And how to choose between one can be quite difficult and a stressful challenge that clinicians can have, particularly since there are really no randomized studies comparing these regimens in a head-to-head fashion. In addition, you know, these guidelines are really broken down by two key factors. One is disease histology, so namely squamous versus non-squamous histology. And the other is PD-L1 status, broken down into one of three tertiles: PD-L1 high, which is greater than or equal to 50% expression; PD-L1 low, which is 1% to 49% expression; and then PD-L1 negative or unknown. So what you are really looking at, if you do that math, is really six unique patient subpopulations where we need to make a recommendation on one of the multitude of treatment regimens that is approved. And what that means is you are oftentimes really looking at subset and sub-subset level data to help inform clinicians in their treatment decision making, which can be quite challenging because as those small subsets of data is more and more parsed, there are many confounders that can be interjected there. And so I think the committee is tasked with really quite a challenge in terms of how to really communicate and broadcast that data in a way that informs clinicians in making a decision on what is the right treatment for their patient. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. It can be challenging to interpret that subgroup data across several different studies that are reporting on different regimens and different outcomes. And I appreciate you mentioning the driver mutation-positive guideline as well. Listeners can check out the companion episode with Dr. Puri for more information on what is changed in the driver mutation-positive guideline. Based on that primer, what is new for first-line therapy for patients with stage IV non-small cell lung cancer without driver alterations? Dr. Joshua Reuss: Even though I will say there is not a lot of new trial data that was incorporated into this guideline, there were some updates and just some meaningful long-term data that we incorporated. I think first and foremost, there is a new top-level recommendation in this guideline pertaining to molecular testing, which is absolutely critical in both the driver mutation-positive and driver mutation-negative space. I think we tend to think that, oh, well, molecular testing really only pertains to then finding a driver mutation. But the lack of a mutation is absolutely critical as well, right? Because that is what leads us down the mutation-negative pathway. We also need this molecular testing to assess PD-L1 status. We are seeing emerging data on molecular mutations that might confer resistance to certain immunotherapy-based strategies. So the committee felt strongly that a recommendation on molecular testing is critical to include in both the driver mutation-positive guideline and the driver mutation-negative guideline. I will also say that we are now seeing five and six-year updates from some of the landmark trials of immunotherapy in driver mutation-negative non-small cell lung cancer. It is really incredible to see that in some of these trials, we are seeing very impressive durability of the treatment in the patient subsets that we are commenting on. In others, perhaps that durability is less clear, and I think that leads to challenges in making a recommendation on any one particular regimen. And I think that is nowhere more clear than in the squamous subset. I think that was one perhaps subtle change that is in this guideline where, particularly in the PD-L1 negative squamous population, the committee felt that no one regimen really was worthy of standing above the others. Sometimes I think it is important to really champion one unique regimen if we feel that the data is there to support it. But I think it is equally important to list multiple regimens where the data is less clear. I think another point is that while perhaps there were no new regimens that we have added or that led to other clear changes in the prioritization of one regimen over another, there are other unique data subsets that I think come into play in making a decision and that really are important when looking at the discussion on any one recommendation from this guideline. For example, we know there is emerging data on perhaps the significance of molecular alterations in KEAP1 or STK11 and how that might influence frontline decision-making. You know, there is not a prospective phase III trial in this population, but I think we still need to use that data in certain scenarios to make recommendations for a particular patient. Another example of a trial that, again, did not change our recommendations, but I think one can incorporate in their decision making is the KEYNOTE-598 trial. Now, this is not a new study, but what it studied was pembrolizumab versus pembrolizumab plus ipilimumab in a PD-L1 high subset, and found that the addition of ipilimumab to pembrolizumab in the PD-L1 high population did not significantly improve clinical efficacy. And so while pembrolizumab plus ipilimumab is not an approved regimen, it is hard to extrapolate that to our combination treatments that are approved. I think some clinicians might find that data valuable when making a frontline treatment decision on a patient who has PD-L1 high status. So a bit of a whirlwind tour, but I think there are still multiple factors that went into this guideline that are important to review when making treatment decisions for any one patient. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. I think what you just mentioned in having that upfront molecular testing is really key for individualized patient care. And the evidence summaries that you provide in addition to the recommendations are really important for clinicians to be able to refer to as they are making decisions in their clinic. So then beyond those changes for first-line therapy, what is updated for second-line and subsequent therapies? Dr. Joshua Reuss: For second-line and subsequent therapies, we did see one new treatment recommendation join these ranks, and that was telisotuzumab vedotin. Telisotuzumab vedotin, quite a mouthful. That is an antibody-drug conjugate. I like to think of that as smart chemotherapy, targeted chemotherapy, where you are trying to utilize some aspect of a marker that is selectively expressed or overexpressed on the cancer surface to then shepherd in the anticancer molecule, a highly potent chemotherapeutic in the case of currently approved antibody-drug conjugates, to exert antitumor killing effect. So in this case, the antibody-drug conjugate telisotuzumab vedotin targets MET overexpression. So telisotuzumab is an antibody targeting MET, and that is conjugated to an MMAE highly potent chemotherapeutic payload called vedotin. So we know MET can be selectively expressed and overexpressed in non-small cell lung cancer in both driver mutation-positive and mutation-negative subsets. The data that led to this approval was from the phase II LUMINOSITY trial which evaluated telisotuzumab vedotin, or Teliso-V, in many subsets. But the subset that really showed promise and was expanded was the EGFR wild-type, non-squamous, non-small cell lung cancer population with MET overexpression. And so in 78 patients with high levels of expression, the response rate here was 34.6%, median progression-free survival of 5.5 months, and a median overall survival of 14.6 months. With an overall acceptable safety profile; grade 3 or higher adverse events, neuropathy was perhaps the most common at 7%, also increased ALT at 3.5%, and pneumonitis at 2.9%. Now this was phase II data that led to an accelerated approval. There is an ongoing phase III study randomizing patients with high expression to Teliso-V versus docetaxel. That is the phase III TeliMET study. But it is nice that we now have another option for patients, perhaps a more biomarker-directed option with, again, this MET overexpression. And again, it further reinforces the importance of molecular testing in patients with traditionally driver mutation-negative non-small cell lung cancer, whether that is upfront or at progression, and in particular utilizing immunohistochemistry to assess MET expression in these patients. And this does join another ADC that we had previously made an update in our recommendation, which is trastuzumab deruxtecan, which is approved for those patients with HER2-overexpressing non-small cell lung cancer. So just again to reiterate the importance of molecular testing in patients both at the outset of their treatment and upon progression on frontline therapy. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. It is great to have this new antibody-drug conjugate join the treatment options, and as you mentioned, very important in this case to have that molecular testing done at the outset and at progression. So then in your view, what should clinicians know as they implement this living guideline, and how do these changes impact patients with non-small cell lung cancer? Dr. Joshua Reuss: Because there are so many different regimens that one can consider for any one patient, I think it is easy to become overwhelmed and stress on, "Am I making the right choice for my patient?" And I think one of the key take home points is that in many cases, there is no one right regimen. And I think one has to weigh several factors. It is the treatment schedule. It is the toxicity profile. It is the molecular profile of the patient. It is the patient preference. You know, there are so many factors here. And I would like to draw the reader and viewer's attention to an important section of these guidelines, particularly the Patient and Clinician Communication section, where we have a box focused on discussion points between patients and clinicians, which I think focuses on several of the high-level points that one can emphasize in making these decisions, ranging on things from: what are the goals of the treatment? What are the risks and benefits to any one approach? What are comorbidities that should be factored in? Common concerns, toxicity management, clinical trial consideration. All of these factors that I think are incredibly important in making that frontline treatment decision and implementing a regimen that both the clinician and, more importantly, the patient feels comfortable with. Brittany Harvey: It is really important that there is shared decision-making in these scenarios. And I think that patient-clinician communication section can tease out some of those preferences from the patient end and talk through the risks and benefits of different regimens as well. As we mentioned at the top of this episode, this guideline is a living guideline and updated on an ongoing basis. So what is the panel examining and keeping an eye on for future updates to this guideline? Dr. Joshua Reuss: So I think there are a lot of exciting new therapies and more up-to-date trials that we are anxiously awaiting the results of on our committee, and I think the oncology community in general is awaiting the results of. When we will have these results, I think, is a bit of an open-ended question, but I can give some insight on several of the trials that our committee is really keeping a close eye on. One that we have mentioned for several guideline iterations is the ECOG-ACRIN INSIGNA trial. This is a phase III clinical trial comparing pembrolizumab versus pembrolizumab plus carboplatin and pemetrexed chemotherapy in PD-L1 positive, non-squamous, non-small cell lung cancer. We talk about there being different regimens that can be considered in PD-L1 positive and PD-L1 high subsets, namely immunotherapy alone or immunotherapy plus chemotherapy, but there is no direct head-to-head comparison here. So this trial hopefully will answer that question. It has now finished accrual. There are other very interesting molecules and trials. I think another interesting compound is ivonescimab. This is a PD-1/VEGF bispecific antibody that is currently approved in China as monotherapy in patients with PD-L1 positive non-small cell lung cancer based off of the HARMONi-2 trial, where the progression-free survival of this bispecific antibody, ivonescimab, appeared superior to pembrolizumab. And we are looking closely at ongoing trials to see if these results will be replicated in an ex-China population. And if so, I think it could have a real impact and change on our guidelines. Still other very interesting things. There are obviously confirmatory studies for antibody-drug conjugates, such as the TeliMET study that I alluded to earlier, and many promising antibody-drug conjugates, both bispecific and trispecific antibody-drug conjugates, that hopefully can inform practice. And then there are several unique subsets of populations that I think we now are utilizing data on to make decisions, but a lot of that is retrospective in small subsets where we do not have that prospective data. And there are several trials ongoing in some of these subsets to try to gain clarity on what regimen may be the best for patients. One example is the phase III TRITON trial, which is looking at comparing CTLA-4 containing regimen, particularly the POSEIDON regimen of durvalumab plus tremelimumab and chemotherapy, versus the KEYNOTE-189 regimen, which is pembrolizumab plus carboplatin and pemetrexed, in patients with non-squamous, non-small cell lung cancer that have alterations in either KRAS, KEAP1, and/or STK11. There is a lot of both preclinical and clinical data to suggest that patients with these alterations in STK11 and KEAP1 may be more resistant to a PD-1 based treatment approach, and perhaps the incorporation of CTLA-4 can lead to a more meaningful response in this unique subset. Obviously, that data, it is retrospective, it is in small subsets. And when you add in a CTLA-4 molecule, you are also introducing greater risk for toxicity. So this trial is going to be very important in elucidating: is there a benefit in that unique subset? Does that data that we see retrospectively in this small subset hold true when evaluated in a prospective fashion? So while our guideline, our most recent comprehensive panel update, may not have had a lot of new data in it that has influenced frontline treatment decision-making, I think the future is bright and there are a lot of novel studies and novel treatments on the horizon that will hopefully improve the outcomes for our patients. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. We will look forward to the results of those ongoing trials to provide more options and particularly clarity for patients with non-small cell lung cancer and to inform this guideline and its many updates to come. So I want to thank you so much for your work to rapidly and continuously update this guideline, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Reuss. Dr. Joshua Reuss: Thank you so much. Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/thoracic-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines App available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.  Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin joins the podcast to discuss the latest changes to the living guideline on metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer (mCRPC). She reviews new treatment options for patients treated with ADT alone, ADT and an ARPI, ADT and docetaxel, and ADT, an ARPI, and docetaxel whose disease has progressed to mCRPC and the evidence that underpins these changes. Dr. Taplin highlights the updated algorithms within the guideline and the living format which will provide rapid, up-to-date, evidence-based information for clinicians and patients. Read the full living guideline update, "Systemic Therapy in Patients With Metastatic Castration-Resistant Prostate Cancer: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2026.1." at www.asco.org/genitourinary-cancer-guidelines TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/genitourinary-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02693 Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin from Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, lead author on "Systemic Therapy in Patients With Metastatic Castration-Resistant Prostate Cancer: ASCO Living Guideline, Version 2026.1." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Taplin. Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: Thank you, Brittany. It is a pleasure. Brittany Harvey: Before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Taplin who has joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. To dive into the content here and what we are here today to talk about, this living clinical practice guideline for systemic therapy for patients with metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer is updated on an ongoing basis. Dr. Taplin, what prompted this latest update to the recommendations? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: Thank you, Brittany. Several things prompted the latest update. There have been several phase III trials that have been practice-changing that have resulted in the last several years that needed to be added to the guidelines to inform clinicians of comprehensive treatment options. Brittany Harvey: Great, and it is great to have this updated guideline for readers. I would like to review the changes to the recommendations in this latest iteration across the patient populations that are outlined in the guideline. So, starting with: What are the updated recommendations for patients previously treated with androgen deprivation therapy alone whose disease has progressed to metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: A nice feature of this guideline is that in addition to the tables, which provide detailed options, is at the end of the guidelines, our readers will find very clear algorithms that describe past treatment scenarios that patients could have had and then outline their treatment options. So it is very clear. Our clinicians will love these algorithms. And one of the changes for the disease state that you mentioned, which is the least treated castration-resistant state of prostate cancer which is previously treated with ADT alone, is that we recommend testing for mutations in the HRR, homologous recombination repair, genes. And the ones that are specifically known and applicable to prostate cancer are the BRCA genes. So there is clear recommendation of testing to remind us, as treating physicians, that now is the time, if it hasn't been done before, to institute both germline and somatic testing. And somatic testing, if it can be done on tissue, is preferable, but if not, the liquid biopsy approaches, the ctDNA approaches, have now advanced to the point that most patients with metastatic prostate cancer will be able to successfully have testing on the liquid biopsies. So that is number one, testing. And then the new treatment options include, if a patient does have an HRR gene alteration, and maybe about 20-25 percent of patients will be in that category, the combinations of an androgen pathway inhibitor and a PARP inhibitor are now treatment options. So for instance, talazoparib and enzalutamide; olaparib and abiraterone; or niraparib and abiraterone are some of the newer treatment options if the patient is HRR-positive. So, Brittany, in regard to patients treated with ADT alone, another new treatment option is the combination of radium-223 with enzalutamide. This is data based on the PEACE-3 trial which did show both an rPFS and OS benefit. For the patient who is HRR-negative and has previously not had an ARPI, just ADT alone, the combination of radium and enzalutamide is a new recommendation added to the algorithm. Brittany Harvey: Great. Thank you for reviewing those options for that patient population. And as you mentioned, I think those algorithms are very helpful as figures in the document. They are clear and can be used as at-a-glance tools for clinicians in their busy clinics. So then the next patient population that the guideline addresses: What is new for patients previously treated with androgen deprivation therapy and an androgen receptor pathway inhibitor whose disease has now progressed to metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: Right, so there are several new treatment options. So one is lutetium-PSMA-617, the trade name of which is Pluvicto. So that has now been FDA approved to use after progression on an AR pathway inhibitor and prior to the use of docetaxel chemotherapy. Brittany Harvey: Thank you for reviewing that new option for patients treated with androgen deprivation therapy and an ARPI whose disease has progressed. So then moving into the next set of recommendations, what does the panel now recommend for patients previously treated with androgen deprivation therapy and docetaxel whose disease has progressed to metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: The next group of patients is those treated with ADT and docetaxel but haven't had an AR pathway inhibitor. Treatment options, again the HRR testing is important. So all patients with metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer should be considered for both germline and somatic testing. I will repeat that. And if they are BRCA mutation positive, then the option of talazoparib and enzalutamide; olaparib and abiraterone; and niraparib and abiraterone.  So the AR pathway inhibitors plus the PARPs. There are three choices, so that can be somewhat complicated to think through, but most practitioners will get familiar with one of those combinations and be their go-to. So those are for BRCA-positive or HRR-positive. The talazoparib/enzalutamide trial also included non-BRCA HRR-positive gene mutations. And if they are HRR-negative, the option that we discussed above of radium and enzalutamide is new to the guideline. Brittany Harvey: Great. And then the last category of patients that is addressed in this update: What has changed for patients previously treated with androgen deprivation therapy, an androgen receptor pathway inhibitor, and docetaxel whose disease has now progressed to metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: Well, in this space, patients who are heavily pretreated with ADT and ARPI, one or even two, and chemotherapy, generally with docetaxel, the recommendations are not new within the last year or two. And they include Pluvicto; a PARP inhibitor if HRR-positive and they have not had one; second-line chemotherapy such as cabazitaxel. And if they are a very rare group and they have been sequenced and they are MSI-high, then considering a PD-1 inhibitor such as pembrolizumab can be considered. I will note that this is a very small percentage of mCRPC patients, probably in the order of 5 percent or less. Brittany Harvey: Understood. And I appreciate you reviewing the recommendations across all of these patient populations. It sounds like some of the key points is that HRR testing is very important for this patient population, and that the algorithms and the tables in the manuscript provide the full list of options that clinicians and patients can refer to. Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: Those are the highlights. And I will note in the tables, all the sections have "Special Considerations" sections because patients never fall into the black and white of one category. And those practical information or special situations sections of each of the recommendations can also help clinicians think about the individual patient in front of them and how they might choose one therapy over another since there are generally choices in all of these treatment situations. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. That information for the individualized patient-clinician decision-making is really key when, as you said, there is a list of options to choose from. So in your view, what should clinicians know as they implement this living guideline update, and how do these changes impact patients? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: I am so excited about this living document. ASCO has invested to developing the software to, in real time and iteratively, assess the new data that is published in prostate cancer and other diseases. So now we don't have to wait many years for the next guideline to come out. The guidelines will be updated every six months in prostate cancer based on this automatic search of the literature and a standing panel of both academic and community experts in prostate cancer treatment. So we no longer have to wait. That is what makes this guideline stand out to other guidelines. And in the digestible format that we have made, a clinician can seek out the table and read some details, seek out practical information for the recommendations, or they can just go right to the clear figure algorithm and take a quick snapshot. "Yep, I need to do HR testing. Done. Oh, okay. HR-positive or negative, these are my options," and then think about the individual patient in front of them when there is more than one option. For instance, a patient with cardiovascular history, abiraterone might not be a good choice for them. Or a patient with neuropathy, docetaxel might not be a good choice for them. But, within this guideline, it really will be up to date and focused on the busy clinician and knowing what the options are for their patient. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. This new era of living guidelines is very exciting and can provide even more up-to-date, evidence-based recommendations to really support clinicians and patients with metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer. So in that vein, finally, what is the panel examining, and what are you excited for for new data coming out for future updates to this living guideline? Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: The future updates will depend on the results of phase III clinical trials. You know, there are many phase III trials ongoing in advanced prostate cancer, some of which include targeted therapy, which has been long awaited in prostate cancer. So such compounds as antibody-drug conjugates that are targeting certain proteins in prostate cancer cells, such as STEAP1, KLK2, B7-H3. So I think we are entering a new era in prostate cancer where we will be targeting cells and delivering drugs and applying them to prostate cancer if the trials are positive. So I think with AI and a large investment in prostate cancer clinical drug development, I think the treatment options for our patients will be rapidly evolving in a manner not previously seen. So the guidelines need to follow along with these developments. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. It sounds like an exciting time for research in metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer. And we will await the result of those phase III trials to inform this guideline and lead to future updates. So I want to thank you so much for your work to rapidly and continuously update these guidelines and for your time today, Dr. Taplin. Dr. Mary-Ellen Taplin: Oh, it was my pleasure. ASCO has been a leader in this area, and as a practicing clinician, we are thankful for the investment and guidance that ASCO gives us. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/genitourinary-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines App, available in the  Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Dr. Lisa Hicks and Dr. Joseph Mikhael discuss the updated guideline from ASCO and Ontario Health (Cancer Care Ontario) on the treatment of multiple myeloma. They cover recommendations for therapeutic options across smoldering multiple myeloma, transplant eligible multiple myeloma, transplant ineligible multiple myeloma, and relapsed or refractory multiple myeloma. They highlight the importance of shared decision making and patient-centric care. They comment on the explosion of new treatment options in this space and the impetus for this guideline becoming a living guideline, which will be updated on an ongoing, regular basis. Read the full guideline, "Treatment of Multiple Myeloma: ASCO-Ontario Health (Cancer Care Ontario) Living Guideline" at www.asco.org/hematologic-malignancies-guidelines. TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools and resources are available at www.asco.org/hematologic-malignancies-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology,  https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02587   Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Lisa Hicks from St. Michael's Hospital and University of Toronto, and Dr. Joseph Mikhael from the Translational Genomics Research Institute, an affiliate of City of Hope Cancer Center, co-chairs on "Treatment of Multiple Myeloma: American Society of Clinical Oncology-Ontario Health (Cancer Care Ontario) Living Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Hicks and Dr. Mikhael. Dr. Lisa Hicks: Thanks so much. Dr. Joseph Mikhael: It is a pleasure to be with you, Brittany. Thank you. Brittany Harvey: Before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO Conflict of Interest Policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Hicks and Dr. Mikhael who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. So then to dive into what we are here today to talk about, Dr. Mikhael, I would like to start by recognizing that this guideline updates the 2019 ASCO-CCO Guideline on the Treatment of Multiple Myeloma. So what prompted this update and what is the scope of this updated guideline? Dr. Joseph Mikhael: It is amazing when we think back in myeloma years, 2019 actually seems a very, very long time ago because really so much has changed in myeloma over these last six to seven years. Indeed, there have been over 150 randomized controlled trials that we didn't have at the prior guideline that we reviewed for this. Myeloma is a disease that has really changed so dramatically over these last several years. Multiple new agents have been introduced. We now have CAR-T cell therapy, bispecific antibodies, and multiple other agents that were not available at the time. Furthermore, with this growing complexity, it is becoming more important than ever to be able to provide practical advice and guidelines to the oncology community. For most oncologists, they have less than 5% of their time dedicated to multiple myeloma. It is important to bring a clarity to them that allows them to care for their patients. And the scope of these guidelines, furthermore, really cover the whole spectrum of myeloma. They go further than our prior guideline where now we have included smoldering multiple myeloma along with frontline therapy and relapsed multiple myeloma. So, we have really tried to provide the full spectrum to our colleagues in oncology to ensure that they have the tools they need to provide the best care possible for their patients. Dr. Lisa Hicks: That is a really terrific summary. And maybe one thing I will just add is it is really unique to have this much literature. I can't think of another guideline that I have ever been involved with that has seen a field move so quickly and develop so many advancements in a period of just over four or five years. Brittany Harvey: Certainly, there is a large volume of evidence that you all had to review for this guideline update. I think to your point probably one of the greater volumes of literature for a guideline update that you both mentioned. Based on that, I would like to review the key recommendations that are updated in this guideline. So Dr. Hicks, that new patient population that Dr. Mikhael mentioned earlier, what are the key recommendations for patients with smoldering multiple myeloma? Dr. Lisa Hicks: So this is the first time that an ASCO guideline is addressing this branch of multiple myeloma care. It is an area where I think some guidance is needed, and smoldering myeloma is not an active cancer. And so one thing that I really want to highlight is that the panel felt very strongly that to recommend any therapy in this space we needed a higher level of evidentiary certainty, of evidentiary confidence, to make recommendations for active therapy. The panel really made two very important recommendations. First of all, the panel did not recommend treatment for low or intermediate risk smoldering myeloma. That is important. And then the area where I think for the first time we have recommended consideration of treatment is patients with high risk smoldering myeloma. And for patients with high risk smoldering myeloma, the panel recommended that it was appropriate to consider either treatment with daratumumab or careful observation. Dr. Joseph Mikhael: And I think that move forward as you have mentioned, Dr. Hicks, is particularly important because it is an area to some degree still of equipoise and many trials are going on in the area. But we do now have a strong phase III trial that supports the use of daratumumab monotherapy for three years when compared to close observation. But of course, that is not for everyone. And one of the key themes of all of our recommendations are going to be now that more and more choices are available, that we have discussions with our patients to ensure that we match the right treatment with the preference of the patient. And I think that is particularly important here in smoldering myeloma. Dr. Lisa Hicks: Multiple myeloma care and the multiple myeloma evidence is really so nuanced, and one of the nuances that readers will appreciate if they read the guideline is that how smoldering myeloma is risk stratified has been different across different trials. And that really adds to the complexity of this recommendation and is one of the reasons that the panel felt that it was appropriate to recommend either observation or treatment. Brittany Harvey: It is great to have these new recommendations for this unique patient population. And as you both mentioned, that individualized patient care is really important across this entire guideline. So then following those recommendations, Dr. Mikhael, what is recommended for initial therapy, autologous stem cell transplantation, post transplant therapy, and measurement of response for patients with transplant eligible multiple myeloma? Dr. Joseph Mikhael: Well, that is an area that has really considerably also grown since the last guideline. Obviously one would have to consult the guidelines to get every last detail, but in essence, we want to assess whether or not patients are transplant eligible or ineligible. And that assessment is not based on age or renal function alone, but indeed on a careful assessment of that patient. When that assessment is made and deemed that a patient is transplant eligible, our recommendation is that a patient typically would receive a quadruplet. That is to say, a monoclonal antibody directed against CD38, a proteasome inhibitor, an immunomodulatory drug, and dexamethasone to be given for approximately four to six cycles followed by the stem cell transplant, followed by potentially another two cycles of consolidation, and then maintenance therapy. A couple of important caveats. One, we do have two different CD38 antibodies that can be used, either daratumumab or isatuximab. Although typically bortezomib is the preferred proteasome inhibitor, consideration can be given to carfilzomib by virtue of the potential toxicity from bortezomib. And then lastly in the maintenance setting, we are typically recommending at least lenalidomide alone, but consideration can be given to dual maintenance therapy as the data is emerging to either add to that daratumumab or carfilzomib. All the while using the IMWG criteria for response. The goal of course is to achieve the deepest response possible and to maintain that response until such time as patients would relapse. Finally, the length of maintenance therapy continues to be an area of equipoise and study in multiple myeloma. And so at minimum, patients would receive two to three years of maintenance therapy, and based on risk status and depth of response it can be considered that patients would potentially come off maintenance therapy, of course always with the caveat that toxicity would influence length of therapy as well. Brittany Harvey: Yes, as you mentioned, evaluating which patients are eligible is extremely important for considering what is recommended in the guideline for both transplant eligible and transplant ineligible patients. So then Dr. Hicks, following those recommendations for transplant eligible multiple myeloma, what are the recommended treatments, goals of therapy, and measurement of response for patients with transplant ineligible multiple myeloma? Dr. Lisa Hicks: You know, I really can't emphasize enough how important an individualized patient assessment is. When we are thinking about the range of patients that are included in this category of transplant ineligible patients, it is a huge range. You may have fairly fit patients in their late 70s all the way to patients in their 90s. And we really want to see that treatments are tailored both to the fitness of the patient, their individual circumstances, and their preferences. And it is a wonderful thing to have lots of options for patients in this circumstance. What the guidelines have recommended for most patients who are transplant ineligible but fit enough for a stronger therapy is quadruplet therapy. So actually therapy that is very similar to what is being recommended in the transplant eligible population but for a longer period of time. And then for those patients who for whatever reason, be it their fitness or their preference, are not appropriate for that quadruplet therapy, the recommendation is for triplet therapy with a combination of lenalidomide, bortezomib, dexamethasone, or very often, more often in most cases, an antibody based approach with an anti-CD38 plus lenalidomide plus dexamethasone. Dr. Joseph Mikhael: The only thing I would add to that, I think we have to also, as we do mention in our recommendations, be particularly cautious with the dosing of these medications. Because even though we think of them as a single agent or a particular class, there can be quite a variation within the dosing regimen that can affect a patient's side effects and their quality of life. And so being very careful with dose modifications, and particularly in the transplant ineligible patient, is an important part of the recommendation as well. Dr. Lisa Hicks: Yeah, this is a podcast so no one can see me nodding vigorously that dose modification is so important particularly with those older and frailer patients, and with particular attention to trying to reduce dexamethasone doses and favoring weekly administration of bortezomib when that drug is used. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. Considering the risks and benefits and patient preferences is really key to selecting therapy for these patients. So then Dr. Mikhael, for the final overarching patient population addressed in this guideline, for patients with relapsed or refractory multiple myeloma, what treatment options are recommended? Dr. Joseph Mikhael: This of course is, if you will, the biggest part of the guideline because there has been so much done in the relapse setting. And I think we start the guideline by saying a decision has to be made as to when to institute therapy. That there may be some patients with slow biochemical relapse that may be monitored for a period of time. But when the decision is made to initiate treatment, instead of a simple algorithm, the guideline emphasizes the fact that there are multiple choices that can be given to a patient that are going to match what comorbidities the patient has, what they have been treated with before, and of course what their preferences are. I think we highlight two particular areas. That now that CAR-T cell therapy is available as early as first relapse, it should be a consideration by virtue of the fact that it has resulted in such deep and durable responses. But that triplets should also be considered in that earlier relapse setting because we do have multiple classes of agents that can be used. We know that in later relapse options exist including bispecific antibodies for which we have four different choices. And that in general, patients will ultimately receive either a triplet or CAR-T cell therapy in earlier relapse, but there are some patients who may be eligible only for a doublet by virtue of their comorbidities and of their prior therapies. Lastly, it really does emphasize the point as we have mentioned a few times in this podcast, and I am so glad it keeps coming up, is that as I often say we don't treat myeloma, we treat people. And engaging the patient in that conversation to ensure that the right treatment gets matched to the right patients is particularly important because with all the new classes that we have with antibody drug conjugates, with XPO1 inhibitors, the traditional three classes of proteasome inhibitors, immunomodulatory drugs, monoclonal antibodies, along with as we have already mentioned CAR-T and bispecific antibodies, it really is an incredible laundry list of choice. And making that choice specific to the patient becomes absolutely critical. I should also lastly note that there are patients who may defer their initial transplant. There may be patients who may be eligible for a second transplant. So autologous stem cell transplant, although primarily used in the frontline setting, may still be a consideration for a smaller subset of patients in the relapse setting. Dr. Lisa Hicks: I think maybe one thing that I would add is an overarching principle which is actually similar to a principle in the first guideline, and that is that in the relapsed or refractory setting, there are many different treatment options. And in fact, the number of treatment options feels like it is evolving every day. But an overarching principle for clinicians to consider is to try and choose combinations of drugs that the patient has either not been exposed to in the past or certainly that they are not refractory to. We really want to be pulling new options out of the toolbox as much as we can. Dr. Joseph Mikhael: Very often we do see where someone may be on a triplet and they are progressing on it and someone just changes out one drug. We have suggested not to take that approach but to take the approach of completely introducing a new therapy when someone is progressing on their current therapy. I think that point is particularly important and the consensus panel was very clear. Brittany Harvey: Understood. That is very helpful when thinking about what options to offer to patients in the relapsed and refractory setting. And as you mentioned earlier, the figures in this guideline provide an outline of options and then the tables really go into some of the details and outcomes of the trials, and those are very helpful for clinicians to refer to. So then Dr. Hicks, we have talked a little bit about some of the nuances of the guideline, but what should clinicians know as they implement these new and updated recommendations? Dr. Lisa Hicks: I think they should feel comfortable that these are trustworthy guidelines. So these are evidence-based guidelines that have been rigorously developed after a very thorough evidence review and put together by a panel of experts who were extremely thoughtful in their review of the evidence. And so all of this contributes to the trustworthiness of the guidance. And then I would also encourage people to take a deep look at the guidelines because of the importance of nuance that is addressed in them, and then to also explore some of the tools that ASCO is developing that helps with implementation including the flow charts that are contained within the guidelines and some additional tools that are available online. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. The tools and resources for this guideline are available online with the publication and we will provide links to that in the show notes of the episode. So then following that, Dr. Mikhael, how does this guideline update affect patients with multiple myeloma? Dr. Joseph Mikhael: As we sort of intimated earlier, I like to say I don't treat myeloma, I treat people. I think we should always be patient-centric and patient-focused. And I think in the discussion we always were. We always wanted to ensure that multiple factors go into a decision-making process. We are not just looking at the biology of the disease, we are looking at patient factors. Those patient factors include their frailty as we commented in a frailty assessment, their preferences, their comorbidities. And I think, in a day where we have so many choices, we emphasize in the guideline the importance of that conversation with the patient. That, if you will, shared decision-making model where options are laid out and based on the patient factors and the treatment factors they can then be meshed together in the best way so that patients can make the right choice. And of course in conjunction with the guidelines, we have patient friendly summaries of them. And we involved, of course, patients in the development of these guidelines. And I think that is one of the greatest strengths of the ASCO guidelines is that there is a patient with us at the table who is giving their perspective on the guideline as we go forward. So I am very thankful that we have created a product that is, if you will, not only for the providers, the practitioners that are prescribing these agents and that are directly giving the care, but indeed for the very patients who of course have the most at stake here. Dr. Lisa Hicks: Yeah Joe, I am so glad you called out the participation of patient partners in the guideline. It is such an important part and they were really- the patient partner was such an important part of this panel in helping us understand the patient perspective as we developed this guidance. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. It is a hugely important role for the panel and for all of the panel including the patient partners and the experts in the disease to review the evidence and come up with comprehensive recommendations. And yes, as you mentioned, the individualized treatment and the shared decision-making is really paramount to this guideline. Finally, Dr. Hicks, you alluded to earlier the vast number of treatment options that is really exploding in multiple myeloma. And so this guideline is becoming a living guideline continuously updated by ASCO. So what are the outstanding questions regarding this topic and what evidence is the panel looking forward to for future updates? Dr. Lisa Hicks: I am really excited about this. This is one of the first guidelines that will be a living guideline for ASCO and it is such a good fit. You have heard Joe and I say a few times how quickly this field is moving, how complex the field is. I think everyone on the panel knew that no matter how quickly we did it and how deeply we reviewed the evidence, it was inevitable that more evidence would be generated as we were putting out the guideline. In a field like that, it is really important that we find a way to provide evidence-based guidelines quickly to the community. You know, waiting another five years, letting another 150 trials accrue before we do another guideline is not what the community needs. And so ASCO has really risen to this challenge and is committed to living guidelines. And so a living guideline is a guideline that commits to reviewing the evolving evidence on an ongoing basis, watching for practice changing trials, and having a standing panel that will review evidence and update recommendations on a regularly scheduled basis. So that is what a living guideline is, and that is what this guideline is becoming. That is just the first thing in terms of what a living guideline is. And then what are we watching? Well, honestly what aren't we watching? There is so much happening in multiple myeloma. We knew as we put the guideline out that there were trials in process, some trials that had been released at conferences but not yet published. We will be waiting for those and if they are practice changing they will be addressed in upcoming updates. There is new evidence just recently presented around combined anti-CD38 and bispecific antibodies. I don't know yet whether that will be addressed but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. There are so many things coming down the pipeline and it is just wonderful that there is going to be a way to try and address them in a robust fashion. Dr. Joseph Mikhael: Yeah I agree with you, Lisa. I can't think of another disease that would be more relevant for a living guideline. I mean we had difficulty because new data kept coming in as we were making recommendations. And so at some point we had to draw a line and say this is where we will stop and produce this guideline and have it ongoing. And I really look forward to seeing the updates because we know as you mentioned that there are so many things that are on the verge of approval and on the verge of changing the way we manage this terrible disease. And before I close, I would love to remind all of our listeners that as we commented from the start, patient engagement is critical at ASCO and in our guidelines process. Unfortunately we lost a very dear patient during the guidelines process, and that is Jack Aiello. Jack Aiello had been a patient and a patient advocate for many, many years in the myeloma community. And indeed we have actually dedicated these guidelines to his honor. And so I thought it would be valuable for us to mention that today. And we miss you Jack, but we are very grateful that we have been able to dedicate this excellent body of work to your memory. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. This guideline and your dedication to him is an honor to his memory and we really recognize him in thinking about this guideline. We will look forward to those future trial results that you mentioned, Dr. Hicks, to update this guideline and continue to provide options for patients with multiple myeloma and improve upon those options and shared decision-making with patients. So I want to thank you both for all of your work to develop this guideline and for your time today, Dr. Hicks and Dr. Mikhael. Dr. Lisa Hicks: You are so welcome. Thanks for featuring this guideline. Dr. Joseph Mikhael: Thank you so much, Brittany. It has been a privilege. Brittany Harvey: Finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/hematologic-malignancies-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines App, which is available in the  Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

Dr. Alison Loren and Dr. Ann Partridge share the latest guideline from ASCO on the management of cancer during pregnancy. They highlight the importance of this multidisciplinary, evidence-based guideline and overarching principles for the management of cancer during pregnancy. Drs. Loren and Partridge discuss key recommendations from each section of the guideline, including diagnostic evaluation, oncologic management, obstetrical management, and psychological and social support. They also touch on the importance of this guideline and accompanying tools for clinicians and how this serves as a framework for pregnant patients with cancer. The conversation wraps up with a discussion on the unanswered questions and how future evidence will inform guideline updates.  Read the full guideline, "Management of Cancer During Pregnancy: ASCO Guideline" at www.asco.org/survivorship-guidelines TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/survivorship-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-02115   Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines Podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Alison Loren from the Perelman School of Medicine of the University of Pennsylvania and Dr. Ann Partridge from Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, co-chairs on "Management of Cancer During Pregnancy: ASCO Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Loren and Dr. Partridge. Dr. Alison Loren: Thanks for having us. Dr. Ann Partridge: It's a pleasure. Brittany Harvey: And then just before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Partridge and Dr. Loren who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. So then to dive into the meat of this guideline, to start us off, Dr. Loren, could you provide an overview of the scope and purpose of this new guideline on the optimal management of cancer during pregnancy? Dr. Alison Loren: Sure, thanks, Brittany. So this was really born out of I think a lot of passion and concern for this really vulnerable patient population. We have observed, and I am sure it is not any surprise to your audience, that the incidence of cancer in young people is increasing. And simultaneously, people are choosing to become pregnant at older ages, and so we are seeing more and more people with a cancer diagnosis during their pregnancy. And for probably obvious reasons, there is really no way to do randomized clinical trials in this population. And so really trying to assemble and articulate the best evidence for safely managing the diagnosis of cancer, the management of cancer once it is confirmed, being thoughtful about obviously the health of the mom, but also attending to potential risks to the developing fetus, and really just trying to be really comprehensive and balanced about all the choices for these patients when they are facing some really challenging decisions in a very emotionally fraught environment. And I think it is really emotionally fraught for the providers, too. You know, this is obviously an extremely intense, very emotional set of decisions, and so trying to provide a rudder essentially to sort of help people frame the questions and trying to make as evidence-based a set of recommendations as possible. Dr. Ann Partridge: And I would just add that "evidence-based" is a strong word here because typically our, as you just heard, our gold standard evidence is a randomized trial, but you can't do that in this setting, in general. And so, what we were able to do with the support of the phenomenal ASCO staff was to pull together kind of the world's literature on the safety and outcomes of treatments during pregnancy, as well as consensus opinion. And I think that is a really, really critical difference about this particular guideline compared to many of the other ones that ASCO does, where consensus and good judgment needed to kind of rule the day when evidence is not available. So, there is a lot of that in our recommendations. Dr. Alison Loren: That is such a good point. And I just, before we move forward, I just want to reflect that the composition of the panel was really broad and wide-ranging. We had maternal medicine specialists, we had legal and ethical experts, we had representatives who understand pharmaceutical industries' perspectives, and then medical oncologists representing the full spectrum of oncology diagnoses. And so it was a really diverse, in terms of expertise, panel, internationally composed to try to really get the best consensus that we could in the absence of gold standard evidence. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. That multidisciplinary panel is really key to developing this guideline and, as you said, looking at the evidence and even though it does not reach the level of randomized trials, still critically evaluating it and reviewing that along with consensus to come up with optimal management for diagnosis and management of cancer during pregnancy. So then to follow that up, I would like to next review the key recommendations of the guideline across the main sections that the expert panel provided. First, I will throw this out to either of you, but what are the important general principles for the management of cancer during pregnancy? Dr. Ann Partridge: I think there were three major principles that we hammer home in the guidelines. One is that this is a team sport. It is multidisciplinary care that is necessary in order to optimize outcomes for the patient and potentially for the fetus. And that you really need to, from the beginning, bring in a coordinated team, including not just oncologists but obstetricians, maternal-fetal medicine specialists, neonatologists, ethics consultants, and obviously the patient and potentially her family. So that, I think, is one of the most important things. Second would be that obviously in a pregnancy, there are two potential patients and that the nuances of safety and risk from treatment is really wrapped up in where in the trimester of the pregnancy the patient is diagnosed, along with the kind of cancer that it is, both the urgency of treatment and the risk of the cancer, as well as the potential risks of any given intervention across the cancer continuum. It is a broad guideline in that regard. And then finally, and this is particularly timely given what is going on from a sociopolitical standpoint in the U.S., really thinking about informed consent and potential ethical as well as legal implications of some of the choices that patients might have when they are thinking about, in particular, continuing a pregnancy or potential termination. Dr. Alison Loren: And I will just add that I think that the key to all of this guidance is nuance and individualization and also making sure that patients and their care providers understand all the choices that are available to them and also the consequences of those choices. You know, nobody would choose to receive chemotherapy during pregnancy if that wasn't necessary. So there are risks to treatment, but there are also risks to not treatment. And making sure that in a suboptimal situation where you do not have a lot of evidence, trying to weigh, the best you can, the risks and benefits of all of the choices so that the patient can come to a decision about the treatment plan that is right for her. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. And those core concepts really set the stage for individualized care on what is necessary for appropriate multidisciplinary care, prioritizing both patient autonomy and informed decision making. With those core concepts and key principles in mind, I would like to move into the recommendations section of the guideline. So what are the key recommendations regarding diagnostic evaluation for pregnant patients with signs or symptoms of cancer? Dr. Alison Loren: I think the most important thing is to not delay, that there are very careful and well-thought-out recommendations for how to evaluate a potential cancer. And while there are certain things that we know can be harmful, particularly when certain dose thresholds are exceeded - for instance, abdominal imaging, there are certain radiographic thresholds that you don't want to exceed because of risk of harm to the embryo or fetus - there are still lots of options for diagnosing cancer during pregnancy. And again, thinking about the costs of not doing versus the cost of doing, right? It is really important to make the diagnosis of cancer if that is a consideration or a concern. And sometimes going directly to biopsies or getting definitive studies, even if there is a small risk to the developing fetus, is really essential because if the mom does not survive, of course, the fetus is also not going to survive. And so we need to be thinking first about the patient who is sitting in front of us, the woman who needs to know what is going on in her body so she can make good decisions about her health. So, I think that is a key principle in thinking about this. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. So, following that diagnosis of a new or recurrent cancer, what is recommended for oncologic management of patients who are diagnosed with cancer during their pregnancy? Dr. Ann Partridge: So, I think the general principle is, again, cancer is such a wide number of diseases and even within diseases, a range of stages and risks and associated opportunities for risk reduction and/or treatment depending on the type of cancer. Just by example, in the work that I do, which is breast cancer, once someone has had a surgery in the early-stage setting, a lot of our treatment is about risk reduction. And that is very different than from what Alison does, which is treating people with leukemia, where it is kind of binary. If you do not treat, including with cytotoxic drugs, the patient and an unborn fetus will die, especially early in the pregnancy, obviously. So this is where cancers are very, very different. So I think taking the approach of what would you do if the patient were not pregnant? And what is the best treatment for that particular patient with that particular kind of cancer? And then applying the pregnancy and where the patient is in that pregnancy in terms of the trimester of the pregnancy, and what is safe and what is unsafe from the options that you would give her if she were not pregnant. And then if the patient is choosing to keep the pregnancy, which in my practice, many people come and they come to me because they want to hold onto their pregnancy and want to figure out how to make it work, coming up with a regimen that tries to give them kind of the best bang for the buck, the best possible breast cancer therapy with the least harm, when possible, to the fetus. It is a bit of a balance, right? And then we cannot always give people the best approach. And sometimes it comes down to making a decision to give up something that may improve their survival so as not to harm the fetus. And sometimes it goes the opposite direction where a patient will say, "Oh, that is going to improve my survival by 5% and you can't give it to me now? I am going to choose to terminate." Even though that is obviously a very, very difficult and challenging decision to make in this setting because they want to optimize their survival and ideally live on to potentially have another pregnancy in the future if that is something that is of interest to her. So these are really, really hard conversations as you can imagine, but that is kind of where we go. Dr. Alison Loren: Yeah, and I think this is where the need for more research and understanding is really key because sometimes questions come up. I guess I am thinking about like HER2-directed agents, which we know are contraindicated in pregnancy. But what about sequencing? Does it matter when you get it? Can you get it later? I think that is something that we don't really fully understand. And similarly, again, this is obviously like a breast cancer and blood cancer focused discussion because that is what we do, but thinking about managing blood cancers, certainly with acute lymphoblastic leukemia, there is actually a lot of options now that, you know, you could potentially use to temporize or sort of get somebody through a pregnancy relatively safely. I am focusing on the word "relatively" because we do not know what the long-term impact might be of potentially not optimal therapy in the long run. And then thinking about other things like timing of a bone marrow transplant relative to either delivery or termination. I mean, again, we really do not know what are the right sets of sort of timing considerations for those. So there are just a lot of unknowns. And I think trying to be sort of self-aware and humble and honest about those unknowns so that the patient can engage in the conversation in a way that is meaningful to her and make the decisions that make the most sense for her. I think the most important thing is to make sure that the patient feels supported and safe to make those decisions with as little regret as possible. Brittany Harvey: Yes, I think it is really important that you mentioned that there is a wide range of cancers here, and that means that care really needs to be individualized for each patient. I will also note, just in this section, that I found really informative while reading through the guideline the list of oncologic agents that may be offered in each individual trimester, whether it is contraindicated or it can be used with caution, or if there is relatively good safety data on it for prioritizing maternal treatment needs and balancing fetal safety at the same time. I think that is, that is really key. And I think readers will really like that section of the guideline to provide concrete information for them and their patients. Dr. Alison Loren: Thank you. We actually spent a lot of time on that table and just thinking about what it should look like, what the format ought to be, what the language ought to be. Because of course, at the end of the day, everything should be used with caution. So what does that actually mean? And we sort of tried to explicate that a little bit in like the footnotes. We really tried to leverage what we know from clinical experience, from package labels, from mechanism of action to try to be as clear and definitive as we could be without overstating or understating what we know. Dr. Ann Partridge: Yeah, and I think we are focusing on breast and leukemia because that is what we do. But the truth is much of the data comes from those two areas. Leukemia, not because it is so common, but because you do not really have choices to treat or not treat. And so for decades, they have been treating and saying, "We hope the progeny comes out okay." And for many agents it does. The babies are okay. And so, we have reasonable observational data. And then in breast cancer, there have been actually some prospective registry-type studies where people have been followed and treated when pregnant, and the progeny have been accounted for, and so we have some good experience in that way too. Again, not randomized trials, but at least data that suggests certain agents are safe. And increasingly, because of that, when we have had to treat patients, we have said, "Okay, let us do it on this registry so that we can at least learn from every patient that comes in in this situation." And so, I think we will have more and more data given the growing number of young adults with cancer and the delays in childbearing that are happening around the world, and particularly in Westernized countries. I wish we did not. We wish we did not see this problem, but of course, when we do, we have to make sure that we learn from it and try and get patients enrolled in these registries and any kinds of studies that are available. Dr. Alison Loren: Yeah, I will just underscore that to say that, you know, there is outcomes of pregnancy and then there is outcomes of pregnancy, right? So there is like, "Okay, the baby was born with 10 fingers and 10 toes, and they passed their Apgar, and they are doing all their developmental processes along the way." But what happens when they are 10 or 15 or 20? Are they maturing normally? Are they cognitively intact? And then, of course, it is really inseparable from what is the impact on a family of having the mom with cancer? And how does that impact childhood development and intellectual development? And so these are really, really important questions that are very difficult to answer given the longitudinal information that you need, but it is a really critical question that, you know, patients ask and we do not know the answer. Dr. Ann Partridge: Yeah, that actually leads me to one of the important principles in the guideline that is a little bit of a change from when I first started practicing, which is we have learned from the wider neonatology literature, as they have followed up on the children that were born prematurely, that it is actually better not to be premature and to keep the baby in utero as long as it is safe for the fetus and the mother as long as possible, ideally to term rather than delivering early and then giving the chemo after that or separating the chemo from before and after. We used to try and deliver early and then give agents, but now we typically will give agents that are safe to be given at the end of pregnancy, ideally close to term, a couple weeks out, to allow for the ability of count recovery, and you do not want to go into preterm labor with chemotherapy on board, but we used to go much earlier and have an argument with our maternal-fetal medicine doctors. "How early can you get them out?" And they would say, "How long can they stay in?" And increasingly, we have been able to try and compromise to go even later and allow the fetus to go to term because of the neonatal outcomes that in longer term there is a suggestion that the children are developing better in the long run if they are kept in utero for as long as possible. Dr. Alison Loren: Yeah, that is such a great point. I think that is probably the most important thing for people to take away. For anyone who sort of does this, I mean, no one does this regularly because it is a rare event, although I think it is increasing as I mentioned. But this idea that the third trimester is, most of us know, is primarily a time for growth. Most of the critical development has already occurred, and so administering most chemotherapy agents towards the end of the third trimester seems to be preferable long term than delivering them early. So that is a really big change. I think we used to try to sort of, "Oh, get them to 30 or 32 weeks and then deliver," but we really are trying to get them closer to term, 37 weeks or more, and then coordinating the treatment so that they are not nadiring, as Ann said, at the time of planned delivery. Brittany Harvey: Yes, and that is a really important point related to evidence-based care and why we have changed that practice. And so then that actually leads nicely into my next question. But as you both mentioned, this is an important collaboration between oncologists and obstetricians. So the next section of the guideline addresses obstetrical practice. And so beyond what is standard, what additional recommendations are there in obstetrical management for pregnant patients with cancer? Dr. Alison Loren: That is a great question. So I will say we were really struggling with like how much do we cover? Like this is an oncology guideline. We are not obstetricians. We certainly had great representation from our maternal-fetal medicine colleagues on the panel. But really trying to sort of give useful information without overstepping. And so I think that the main recommendations are to increase the frequency of fetal monitoring, make sure that there is close attention to blood counts in the patient. But I think there is really still a gap in terms of what we know about optimal management of a pregnant person who is receiving therapy and how to handle the pregnancy itself. The delivery should be a usual delivery. Our colleagues did not recommend a planned C-section. They recommended usual care in terms of planning for the delivery. Obviously, if a C-section is indicated, then it should be done, but it should not be planned this way because of the cancer diagnosis. And I guess the other thing that we mentioned in the guideline, although we were reluctant to push it too hard because of access to these specialized services, was evaluating the placenta after birth to ensure that there were no metastases in the placenta itself. Dr. Ann Partridge: Those are the main things, and judicious and prudent obstetrical care, as I think, you know, is trying to be practiced regularly with MFM. Typically these patients should be followed not by your average OB/GYN, but a maternal-fetal medicine specialist because these patients will have special concerns, especially if they are sick. So oftentimes, especially Alison's patients, are actually sick with leukemia. And so you are monitoring them a lot, whereas, you know, a breast cancer patient typically isn't sick, although they could get sick with their chemotherapy. And so we really want to hand-in-hand manage these patients with our MFM colleagues. Dr. Alison Loren: I think we also highlighted in the guideline just for the refresher purposes of the oncology community, generally which drugs that would be given in a normal oncology setting are safe to be given to a pregnant person. So we talked a little bit about what kinds of steroids are recommended, antiemetics, DVT prophylaxis, peripartum. These are things that we think about a lot in oncology, but just want to make sure that it sort of intersected appropriately with the care of a pregnant patient. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. That specialized care is really important for patients who are pregnant and have cancer. And then the last section of the recommendations addresses psychological and social support. As you both mentioned before, this is a highly emotional time and it can be difficult and challenging to make decisions. So what is recommended for the psychological and social support of pregnant patients with cancer? Dr. Ann Partridge: Well, as I said, it is really something that needs to be considered at the beginning, through the diagnostic period, all the way into survivorship. Ironically, even though it is a highly fraught, emotional situation, I find that my pregnant patients actually are extraordinarily resilient, and what they are really focused on often is the safety of the fetus, because again, many of the people that come to me, it is a highly wanted pregnancy. They are also focused on their own health, of course, and often you need to bring in social work, sometimes a psychologist, professionals who are there just to help manage their emotions while we are focusing on what do they need medically to be as healthy as possible, both for the again, the mother, the patient, and the fetus. It is very tricky, and I will say also bringing in sometimes people on the ethics team in the hospital to help, both from the "Are you recommending and giving something that is safe?" That is number one. And then number two, sometimes patients want to be treated with drugs that we do not have any safety data for in pregnancy. What are our obligations? I think most of us would say we would not treat someone if we do not have safety data and there is suspicion for concern. But where is that line in terms of the right thing to do by that patient? And so we are all beholden to our ethics colleagues to help us when we make decisions like that. You know, we all want to do right by the patient, but we have to uphold our oaths and legal obligations. I don't know if you have to add on that because it's very tricky. Dr. Alison Loren: It is, it is very hard. I mean, I think, you know, there is a lot of emotion, obviously any cancer diagnosis is extremely charged and people are already at sort of a heightened, you know, they are anticipating a new baby and planning around that. And so it is just an extremely disruptive is the smallest word I can think of to describe it. And I think that often there is a co-parent, there might be parents and in-laws and other siblings, and then there is care after delivery. And so it is just a very complex set of dynamics. And having both our ethics colleagues and our psychology and social work colleagues to sort of just pitch in and make sure that the patient is being supported. I think there are sometimes really difficult situations where maybe what the patient wants is different from what the father of the baby wants or what the rest of the family wants. And so that can be really challenging. And you never really know where those landmines are going to pop up. So it is good to have the team on board early and often. Dr. Ann Partridge: Yeah, I would add to that, the other thing here that I think is really important, like in all of medicine but especially in situations like this, this is where we have to be very careful as professionals not to impose our own ethical, moral, emotional, personal views on the patient and to try to reserve judgment as much as possible. We are their navigator with the most important evidence and information that we can provide in the current situation. And that is where this guideline is extraordinarily helpful, we hope, for clinicians in the years to come. And at the same time, we cannot necessarily impose our own views and what we would do on a patient or what we tell our daughters, sisters, friends, family members. It is very tricky in that way. And so sometimes not just support for the patient, but support for the care team may be warranted in some of these very fraught situations. Dr. Alison Loren: Yeah, that is such a great point. And I was sort of thinking that too. I mean, it is, of course, the patient is front and center, but these are really difficult situations to navigate. And I will just add also that a lot of times these patients end up in academic centers, which I think is that's where the expertise or even just the experience may be. But the downside of that is that, you know, the teams are constantly changing. You have a new resident, you have a new intern, you have a new attending, a new fellow. And so, you know, the patients may be subjected to lots of different ways of communicating and sometimes those perceived differences can be really challenging. So sort of team huddles to sort of make sure that everybody is reading from the same script and everyone is comfortable with how the information is being presented so that the patient does not feel more confused or more overwhelmed, that they are kind of getting a consistent message from the whole team that, "This is what we know, this is what we are recommending, here are your other choices, and here are the pros and cons of each of these options." Brittany Harvey: Yes, I think you have both touched on this and that bringing in appropriate experts to support both clinicians and patients and their decision-making and their mental health is really important for this section of the guideline. We have already discussed this a fair bit throughout our conversation, but in your view, what is the importance of this guideline and how will it impact both clinicians and pregnant patients diagnosed with cancer? Dr. Ann Partridge: I could start with that. We just talked about experts and having them all around, but the fact is most people do not have the experts all around when they are dealing with this. And I think this is, you know, an expert-based, evidence-based guideline where having this in one's back pocket, whether you are in rural Montana or at a major cancer center on either coast, you will be armed with the latest and the greatest in terms of what we know and what we do not know, and some very helpful algorithms for how to think through the process of dealing with a patient who is diagnosed during pregnancy, whichever type of cancer it is. We could not cover every single specific thing about every cancer, although it is a pretty long guideline and there is a lot of nuance in there. So you might find a lot about specific cancers. And I think that that will be very, very helpful for people who are faced with this situation in the clinics just to frame it out, think through. Sometimes there is no answer that is the perfect answer and then, you know, using this as kind of a scaffolding and phoning a friend who may have more experience to help guide you and guide the patient, most importantly. I think it will be very helpful in that regard. Dr. Alison Loren: Yeah, I think so too. And I have talked about that we are working on this guideline and the anecdotal feedback has been, "This is so helpful." Like there really has not been, I think, an all-in-one place, diagnostic considerations, radiographic considerations, staging, treatment, all the modalities, surgical, radiation, systemic chemotherapy. We tried to include, when we could, novel agents including targeted agents and monoclonal antibodies and bispecifics and cellular immunotherapies and non-cellular immunotherapies. We really, really tried to cover in 2025 what are people using to treat cancer and to try to give the most balanced view of what we think is is safe or reasonably safe and what we think is either unproven or known to be risky, really to have it be kind of a go-to, like all-in-one, as much information as we have about these really challenging cases. We tried to include, Ann mentioned, you know, specific cancers, and I think when there were specific things to shout out with specific cancers, we really tried to highlight that. Like, "Okay, lots of young patients with cancer have Hodgkin's lymphoma, so what is safe and what is not for that specific case?" Or, "What is safe or what is not when you are thinking about colon cancers?" And we have a shout-out in here about considering checking for DPD deficiencies in patients who are pregnant. And I know it is generally recommended nowadays, but certainly for people who are pregnant, you know, you really want to avoid excess toxicity. So I think just really trying to be attentive to specifics about certain cancers in young patients and what would be valuable for a practicing oncologist and obstetrician to know when you are faced with this situation. Dr. Ann Partridge: Yeah, and I think the other critical thing that is great about this guideline is it's a starting place. And I anticipate that we will be building on this guideline for many years to come. And remember that when first, I was not around then, but probably three or four decades ago, when chemotherapy was just coming out and patients were coming in pregnant, there was a feeling I am sure that was, "We cannot give this to this person because it is purposefully going to destroy cells. And when you destroy cells in a growing fetus, you are going to destroy or harm that fetus." And yet, people did not have great choices. It was get treated or die, especially with things like leukemia early on. And bold patients along with their oncologist said, "Bring it on." And that is how some of this literature has been born. And so moving forward, there will be either purposeful exposures or inadvertent exposures of some of our therapies where we will learn ultimately. And this is a place where we can update these guidelines. That is the beautiful thing about the ASCO guidelines is that they are constantly being thought about to be updated. And then when there is enough of a change in practice, they will be updated such that they will continue to inform how we do this in the years to come for patients who come in pregnant. Dr. Allison Loren: Yeah, and I will say I have been doing this long enough now, we were just talking about a different guideline, the fertility guideline earlier today, and over the 20 years that the fertility guidelines have been out, just the amount of research has really skyrocketed. And you can see as you look at each guideline how much we have learned, what we can say, "Yes, this is working," "No, this is not working." Like, it is stuff that we used to say, "Oh, we do not really know," and now we have answers.  I think I speak for both of us when I say that we are hopeful that this will serve as, as Ann said, as a starting off point and really inspire people to ask the questions and do the research so that we can give better guidance moving forward, really trying to think about, you know, mechanisms and leaning on our colleagues in pharma and in the government who sort of think about safety and efficacy, to sort of make sure that they are contemplating not just non-pregnant patients, but also pregnant patients or as they are thinking about marking the package inserts with safety guidelines around this. Brittany Harvey: Yes, this is a critically important first guideline on the management of cancer during pregnancy, and we will look forward to continuing to build on that. I think as you mentioned, this guideline is far-reaching and has a lot of recommendations in it. And so both the full text of the guideline and those at-a-glance algorithms, figures, and tables will be really useful for clinicians in their clinic. Finally, to wrap us up, we have just been discussing this a little bit, but specifically, what are the outstanding questions on the management of pregnant patients with cancer, and where is this further research needed? Dr. Alison Loren: There are lots and lots and lots of unanswered questions. And I think if you look at the table, most of what we say is, "We are pretty sure this is okay, we are not so sure about this." I am paraphrasing, but we really just are operating in a paucity of what we would normally consider gold-standard evidence. It is hard to imagine, of course, there would ever be, as we mentioned in the beginning, randomized trials. But I think that preclinical data, mechanistic data, trying to think about including as we go through animal data, making sure that we are looking at female animals and pregnant animals so that we can sort of fully understand what the impact may be. And then I think thinking about more localized therapies around sort of radiation, you know, we are now moving into really hyper-focused radiation treatments like protons. Is that better because there is less scatter? Like I think those are real considerations that we just do not know the answer to. What do you think? Dr. Ann Partridge: I think so many unanswered questions, and this is a call to action to continue to and increase the documentation of the experiences and outcomes for patients diagnosed during pregnancy. Dr. Alison Loren: Yeah, and I think the long-term outcomes too are really going to be critical. Brittany Harvey: Yes, we will look forward to learning about more evidence across the spectrum of care to inform future updates to this guideline. So I want to thank you both so much for your work to develop this guideline, to review the extensive amounts of literature that you did, and work to create this guideline. And thank you also for your time today, Dr. Loren and Dr. Partridge. Dr. Alison Loren: Thanks. It was fun. Dr. Ann Partridge: Yeah, thank you. Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning into the ASCO Guidelines Podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/survivorship-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. 

Dr. Tanya Thomas and Dr. Aparna Jotwani join the podcast to discuss the new Oncology Nursing Society and American Society of Clinical Oncology evidence-based guideline on the management of antineoplastic extravasation. They discuss recommendations from the expert panel on: management of extravasation of vesicant or irritant with vesicant properties antineoplastic agents, management of extravasation of paclitaxel or docetaxel, use & duration of thermal compress, and escalation of care. They share the importance of this comprehensive interdisciplinary guideline, highlight the algorithm as a useful tool for clinicians, and outline the outstanding questions related to the management of extravasation. Read the full guideline, "ONS/ASCO Guideline on the Management of Antineoplastic Extravasation" at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the JCO Oncology Practice, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/OP-25-00579  Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Tanya Thomas, clinical chair of the guideline and clinical nurse specialist from University of Virginia Health, and Dr. Aparna Jotwani, medical oncologist from Baylor College of Medicine, authors on "Management of Antineoplastic Extravasation: Oncology Nursing Society – American Society of Clinical Oncology Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Thomas and Dr. Jotwani. Dr. Aparna Jotwani: Thank you. Dr. Tanya Thomas: Thank you for having us. Brittany Harvey: And then before we discuss this guideline, I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Thomas and Dr. Jotwani, who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in JCO Oncology Practice, which is linked in the show notes. So then to dive into the content here, Dr. Thomas, could you start us off by providing an overview of both the scope and the objectives of this guideline? Dr. Tanya Thomas: Yes, so the objective of this guideline is to provide the evidence-based recommendations to help support our interdisciplinary teams, including the oncologist, the advanced practice providers, pharmacists, and nurses who are involved in the care and management of patients who are experiencing an extravasation of an antineoplastic agent. While rare, the antineoplastic and certain chemotherapy extravasations are oncologic emergencies. The recommendations are to minimize negative consequences and provide a standardized approach to the care when such an event occurs. Dr. Aparna Jotwani: I would add that our scope is limited to intravenous antineoplastic vesicants, irritants, and irritants with vesicant potential. The scope of the guideline applies to the care team for adult oncology patients receiving treatments through venous access. Outside the scope is management of extravasation during other routes of treatment administration, such as intraperitoneal, intravesical, and hepatic arterial infusion. Our recommendations regarding vascular access for therapy or interventions to prevent extravasations are also outside of the scope for this guideline. Brittany Harvey: Understood. I appreciate that background and understanding what's in scope and what's out of scope for this guideline. So then I'd like to pivot and talk about the key recommendations of this guideline across the clinical questions. So first, Dr. Jotwani, what does the panel recommend for patients with extravasation of vesicant or irritant with vesicant properties antineoplastic agents? Dr. Aparna Jotwani: The panel strongly recommends for all classes where an antidote exists to proceed with using the antidote. Recommendations for paclitaxel and docetaxel are specifically addressed in a recommendation. This is further detailed in Tables 1 and 4 within the guideline. Evidence on the use of antidotes for extravasation is limited to nonrandomized, uncontrolled, observational studies and case series. Placebo-controlled trials on this topic would be unethical. There is also a lack of comparative data for different antidote strategies. However, potential benefits of using the antidotes include tissue preservation and avoiding tissue necrosis. In developing the guidelines, we had an in-person roundtable discussion and weighed risks and benefits to ensure patient safety above all else. Brittany Harvey: I appreciate that description of the recommendation here. So then you just mentioned that there's a specific recommendation for paclitaxel and docetaxel. So what is recommended for those patients with extravasation of paclitaxel or docetaxel? Dr. Aparna Jotwani: So here, we conditionally recommended the specific use of hyaluronidase as the antidote. This was based on five studies that all used hyaluronidase as an antidote to lower the risk of tissue necrosis. In the studies included, with a subgroup of patients that experienced taxane-related extravasation, development of necrosis ranged from 0% to 0.83% among the patients who received an antidote. The potential harms associated with this were likely trivial. Brittany Harvey: Thank you for providing that recommendation as well. So then the next section of the guideline, Dr. Thomas, what does the expert panel recommend for use and duration of thermal compress? Dr. Tanya Thomas: So the expert panel actually recommends the use of thermal compresses, and the recommendations are based on the available literature for the various agents and the actual time frames most frequently used for the compress application. The utilization of a thermal compress is recommended for 15 to 20 minutes at a time for 3 to 4 times daily, at least for the first 48 to 72 hours after that extravasation occurs. The actual frequency and duration may vary based on the extent of the extravasation and the agent involved in that extravasation. The intent of the warm compress is to help disperse the agent and reduce the localized accumulation of the agent, whereas the cold compress, it actually helps prevent the dispersion or the spread of the agent while allowing the antidote to help neutralize that agent. Warm compresses are recommended for extravasations involving the vinca alkaloids, etoposide, oxaliplatin, and the taxanes - paclitaxel and docetaxel - only when coadministering the antidote hyaluronidase. The use of a cold compress is actually recommended for extravasations involving the anthracyclines, antimetabolites, alkylating agents, and taxanes when coadministration of the antidote hyaluronidase does not occur. Brittany Harvey: Understood. Those specific and actionable recommendations are really key for clinical practice. So then, following those recommendations, how does the guideline address escalation of care and surgical referral for patients with central line extravasation? Dr. Tanya Thomas: So this topic actually had a lot of discussion. And while there is not enough evidence to make strong recommendations, the expert panel recognized that surgical referrals should be considered in certain scenarios. Dr. Aparna Jotwani: We discussed that certain scenarios would include high-risk populations, such as patients that are receiving DNA-binding vesicants, those with high-volume estimated extravasation, and those with CTCAE grade 2, which would be erythema associated with symptoms such as edema, pain, induration, and phlebitis, or grade 3, which would be symptoms of ulceration or necrosis or concern for severe tissue damage, or grade 4, where you would have a life-threatening consequence extravasation, may have a greater likelihood of benefiting from surgical referral and/or escalation of care as deemed appropriate. Brittany Harvey: Great. And yes, it's really important to provide all of these recommendations that you've both just gone through, even when we're faced with very low evidence. So then, Dr. Thomas, in your view, what is the importance of this guideline, and how will it impact clinical practice? Dr. Tanya Thomas: So when extravasations occur in the clinical setting, members of the interdisciplinary team can be faced with barriers related to where to look for the information, how to find all the relevant information in one concise place, how to provide education to the patient about how to care for the site of extravasation in the home setting, and also when to escalate to specialized teams. This can actually cause some added stress and anxiety, and in certain circumstances, may lead to delays in efficient management. This guideline provides the resource clinicians have been looking for. It includes comprehensive recommendations for antineoplastic extravasations in one guideline while also providing a one-page algorithm with the key information regarding the management of the extravasations. This allows all levels of providers to have evidence-based recommendations regarding initial management of the extravasation, for instance, how to manage the infusion, key site assessment reminders, available antidotes, and the use of thermal compress; the required documentation, recommended follow-up scheduling, in addition to key aspects of the patient education. This type of guidance is not found in any other single document regarding antineoplastic extravasation. Having this document readily available at the point of care potentially can reduce time required for providers to search for management recommendations and also provide consistency in patient education and follow-up management scheduling. It reduces uncertainty within interdisciplinary teams and can help inform policy development for clinicians to approach extravasations with confidence. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. I agree that this is an incredible resource for clinicians with the recommendations, the algorithm that you mentioned, and the supporting evidence that underpins these recommendations to really provide both efficient and effective care for patients. So beyond the impact for clinical practice, Dr. Jotwani, how will these guideline recommendations affect patients receiving antineoplastic treatment for cancer? Dr. Aparna Jotwani: Exactly. In addition to the clinical care team, we want to help and benefit our patients. So, oncology patients that experience extravasations are at risk for, aside of the side effects of tissue necrosis and infection, they also are at risk for delay of cancer treatment. In making these guidelines, we kept in mind the cost and the efforts for patients, additional visits that they could incur, additional time and supplies for care of the extravasation, as well as cost. Our guideline aims to provide an evidence-based approach to the care of oncology patients receiving antineoplastic intravenous therapy. While there are gaps in the data due to the nature of these events, based on careful literature review, these guidelines serve as a basis for quality, standardized oncology care during extravasation. Personally, I hope our graphics especially can be used across the systems to guide clinical care. Brittany Harvey: Definitely. We hope that these recommendations improve treatment and treatment outcomes for all patients receiving antineoplastic treatment for cancer. So then you've also just mentioned some gaps in the literature. So Dr. Thomas, I'd like to turn to you to wrap us up and ask, what are the outstanding questions for the management of antineoplastic extravasation? Dr. Tanya Thomas: Yes, that's a good question. Two of the main outstanding questions are related to the management of extravasations involving the novel agents and extravasations involving multi-agent regimens. The current literature regarding how to effectively manage the multi-agent regimens, for instance, there is no clear guidance for managing the extravasation for someone who is receiving a regimen that involves simultaneous administration of, let's say, a vinca alkaloid and an anthracycline. One of those agents requires a warm compress while the other requires a cold compress, and there are different antidotes for those two agents. Additionally, there has not been a lot of published information on the impact of extravasation of those novel agents like the antibody-drug conjugates. With the pace of the drug development, a subgroup of the guideline panelists actually are exploring case reports specific to novel agents to help inform some future work. Brittany Harvey: Yes, we'll look forward to learning more about how to address these ongoing issues and potentially impact guideline recommendations in the future as well. So I want to thank you both so much for your work to develop this incredibly important guideline, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Thomas and Dr. Jotwani. Dr. Aparna Jotwani: Thank you for the opportunity. Dr. Tanya Thomas: Yes, thank you. Brittany Harvey: And finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines. I also encourage you to check out the companion episode on this guideline on the ONS podcast, available on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube Music. And finally, you can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

Dr. Kathleen Horst, Dr. Rachel Jimenez, and Dr. Yara Abdou discuss the updated guideline from ASTRO, ASCO, and SSO on postmastectomy radiation therapy. They share new and updated recommendations on topics including PMRT after upfront surgery, PMRT after neoadjuvant systemic therapy, dose and fractionation schedules, and delivery techniques. They comment on the importance of a multidisciplinary approach and providing personalized care based on individual patient characteristics. Finally, they review ongoing research that may impact these evidence-based guidelines in the future. Read the full guideline, "Postmastectomy Radiation Therapy: An ASTRO-ASCO-SSO Clinical Practice Guideline" at www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines" TRANSCRIPT This guideline, clinical tools, and resources are available at www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines. Read the full text of the guideline and review authors' disclosures of potential conflicts of interest in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO-25-01747  Brittany Harvey: Hello and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast, one of ASCO's podcasts delivering timely information to keep you up to date on the latest changes, challenges, and advances in oncology. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today I am interviewing Dr. Kathleen Horst, expert panel chair from Stanford University; Dr. Rachel Jimenez, expert panel vice chair from Massachusetts General Hospital; and Dr. Yara Abdou, ASCO representative from the University of North Carolina, authors on "Postmastectomy Radiation Therapy: An American Society for Radiation Oncology, American Society of Clinical Oncology, and Society of Surgical Oncology Clinical Practice Guideline." Thank you for being here today, Dr. Horst, Dr. Jimenez, and Dr. Abdou. Dr. Kathleen Horst: Thank you for having us. Brittany Harvey: And then just before we discuss this guideline, I would like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The disclosures of potential conflicts of interest for the guideline panel, including Dr. Horst, Dr. Jimenez, and Dr. Abdou who have joined us here today, are available online with the publication of the guideline in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is linked in the show notes. Then to dive into the content that we are here today to talk about, Dr. Horst, could you start us off by describing what prompted the update for this joint guideline between ASTRO, ASCO, and SSO, and what is the scope of this 2025 guideline on postmastectomy radiation therapy? Dr. Kathleen Horst: Thank you. This joint guideline was last updated in 2016. Over the past decade, the treatment of breast cancer has evolved substantially. Newer systemic therapy regimens have increasingly personalized treatment based on tumor biology, and local therapy management has explored both the de-escalation of axillary surgery and more abbreviated courses of radiation therapy. Given these advances, it was important to revisit the role of postmastectomy radiotherapy in this modern era of breast cancer therapy. This updated guideline addresses four key questions, including postmastectomy radiation therapy after upfront surgery as well as after neoadjuvant systemic therapy. It also reviews the evolving role of various dose and fractionation schedules and optimal treatment techniques and dose constraints. Brittany Harvey: Excellent. I appreciate that background, Dr. Horst. So then, next, Dr. Jimenez, I would like to review the recommendations of this guideline across those four key questions that Dr. Horst just mentioned. So first, what does the panel recommend for PMRT for patients who received initial treatment with mastectomy? Dr. Rachel Jimenez: The panel provided pretty strong consensus that patients with positive lymph nodes or patients with large tumors involving the skin or the chest wall should receive postmastectomy radiation. However, the panel also recognized that the omission of postmastectomy radiation may be appropriate for select patients who have positive lymph nodes and have an axillary lymph node dissection if they have a low nodal burden and other favorable clinical or pathologic features. For patients without lymph node involvement at the time of surgery and no involvement of the skin or chest wall, postmastectomy radiation was not advised by the panel. Brittany Harvey: Understood. It is helpful to understand those recommendations for that patient population. Following that, Dr. Abdou, what are the key recommendations for PMRT for patients who received neoadjuvant systemic therapy before mastectomy? Dr. Yara Abdou: When we think about PMRT after neoadjuvant treatment, the key point is that the initial stage of presentation still matters a lot. So for example, if a patient comes in with more advanced disease, say a large primary tumor, like a clinical T4, or more extensive nodal disease, like an N2 or N3 disease, those patients should get PMRT, no matter how well they respond to neoadjuvant therapy, because we know it reduces the risk of recurrence and that has been shown pretty consistently. On the other hand, if there are still positive lymph nodes after neoadjuvant treatment, basically residual nodal disease, PMRT is also strongly recommended because the risk of local-regional recurrence is much higher in that setting. The gray area is the group of patients who start with a lower burden of nodal disease, such as N1 disease, but then become node negative at surgery. For those patients, we tend to individualize the decision. So if the patient is young or has triple-negative disease, or if there is a lot of residual disease in the breast even though the nodes are cleared, then radiation is probably helpful. But if everything has melted away with pCR in both the breast and the nodes, then it may be safe to omit PMRT in those patients. For patients with smaller tumors and no nodal involvement to begin with, like a clinical T1-T2 N0, if they are still node negative after neoadjuvant treatment, then PMRT is generally not recommended because their baseline recurrence risk is low. And finally, if the margins are positive and cannot be re-excised, then PMRT is recommended after neoadjuvant therapy. Brittany Harvey: Yes, those distinctions are important for appropriate patient selection. So then, Dr. Horst, we have just reviewed the indications for PMRT, but for those patients who receive PMRT, what are the appropriate treatment volumes and dose fractionation regimens? Dr. Kathleen Horst: The guideline addresses coverage of the chest wall and regional nodes with a specific discussion of the data regarding internal mammary nodal irradiation, which has been an area of controversy over many years. The guideline also reviews the data exploring moderate hypofractionation, or shorter courses of radiation therapy. The task force recommends utilizing moderate hypofractionation for the majority of women requiring postmastectomy radiation, which is likely to have a large impact on clinical practice. This recommendation is based on the evolving data demonstrating that a 3-week course of radiotherapy after mastectomy provides similar oncologic outcomes and minimal toxicity for most patients compared to the standard 5-week treatment course. Brittany Harvey: Thank you for reviewing that set of recommendations as well. So then, Dr. Jimenez, to wrap us up on the key questions here, what delivery techniques are recommended for treating patients who receive PMRT? Dr. Rachel Jimenez: So this portion of the guideline is likely to be most helpful for radiation oncologists because it represents the most technical part of the guideline, but we do believe that it offers some important guidance that has, to this point, been lacking in the postmastectomy radiation setting. So first, the panel recommends that all patients should undergo 3-dimensional radiation planning using CAT scan based imaging, and this includes contouring. So contouring refers to the explicit identification, using a drawing interface on the CAT scan imaging, by the radiation oncologist to identify the areas that are targeted to receive radiation, as well as all of the nearby normal tissues that could receive unintended radiation exposure. And we also provide radiation oncologists in the guideline with suggestions about how much dose each target tissue should receive and what the dose limits should be for normal tissues. Additionally, we make some recommendations regarding the manner in which radiation is delivered. So for example, we advise that when conventional radiation methods are not sufficient for covering the areas of the body that are still at risk for cancer, or where too high of a dose of radiation would be anticipated to a normal part of the body, that providers employ a technique called intensity modulated radiation therapy, or IMRT. And if IMRT is going to be used, we also advise regular 3-dimensional imaging assessments of the patient's body relative to the treatment machine to ensure treatment fidelity. When the treatments are delivered, we further advise using a deep inspiration breath-hold technique, which lowers the exposure to the heart and to the lungs when there is concern for cardiopulmonary radiation exposure, and again, that image guidance be used along with real-time monitoring of the patient's anatomy when those techniques are employed. And then finally, we advise that patients receiving postmastectomy radiation utilize a bolus, or a synthetic substance placed on the patient's skin to enhance radiation dose to the superficial tissue, only when there is involvement of the skin with cancer or other high-risk features of the cancer, but not for every patient who receives postmastectomy radiation. Brittany Harvey: Understood. And then, yes, you just mentioned that section of the guideline is probably most helpful for radiation oncologists, but I think you can all comment on this next question. What should all clinicians, including radiation oncologists, surgical oncologists, medical oncologists, and other oncologic professionals, know as they implement all of these updated recommendations? Dr. Rachel Jimenez: So I think one of the things that is most important when we consider postmastectomy radiation and making recommendations is that this is a multidisciplinary panel and that we would expect and encourage our colleagues, as they interpret the guidelines, to employ a multidisciplinary approach when they are discussing each individual patient with their surgical and medical oncology colleagues, that there is no one size fits all. So these guidelines are intended to provide some general guidance around the most appropriate techniques and approaches and recommendations for the utilization of postmastectomy radiation, but that we recognize that all of these recommendations should be individualized for patients and also represent somewhat of a moving target as additional studies, both in the surgical and radiation oncology realm as well as in the systemic therapy realm, enter our milieu, we have to adjust those recommendations accordingly. Dr. Kathleen Horst: Yeah, I would agree, and I wanted to comment as a radiation oncologist, we recognize that local-regional considerations are intertwined with systemic therapy considerations. So as the data evolve, it is critical to have these ongoing updates in a cross-disciplinary manner to ensure optimal care for our patients. And as Dr. Jimenez mentioned, these multidisciplinary discussions are critical for all of us to continue to learn and understand the evolving recommendations across disciplines but also to individualize them according to individual patients. Dr. Yara Abdou: I could not agree more. I think from a medical oncology perspective, systemic therapy has gotten much better with adjuvant CDK4/6 inhibitors, T-DM1, capecitabine, and immune therapy. So these are all newer adjuvant therapies, so the baseline recurrence risks are lower than what they were in the trials that established PMRT. So the absolute benefit of radiation varies more now, so smaller for favorable biology but still relevant in aggressive subtypes or with residual disease. So it is definitely not a one-size-fits-all. Brittany Harvey: Yes, I think it is important that you have all highlighted that multidisciplinary approach and having individualized, patient-centric care. So then, expanding on that just a little bit, Dr. Abdou, how will these guideline recommendations affect patients with breast cancer? Dr. Yara Abdou: So basically, reiterating what we just talked about, these guidelines really move us towards personalized care. So for patients at higher risk, so those with larger tumors, multiple positive nodes, or residual nodal disease after neoadjuvant therapy, PMRT remains essential, consistently lowering local-regional recurrence and improving survival. But for patients at intermediate or lower risk, the recommendations support a more selective approach. So instead of a blanket rule, we now integrate tumor biology, response to systemic therapy, and individual patient factors to decide when PMRT adds meaningful benefit. So the impact for patients is really important because those at high risk continue to get the survival advantage of radiation while others can be spared the unnecessary treatment and side effects. So in short, we are aligning PMRT with modern systemic therapy and biology, making sure each patient receives the right treatment for their situation. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. Individualizing treatment to every patient will make sure that everyone can achieve the best outcomes as possible. So then, Dr. Jimenez, to wrap us up, I believe Dr. Horst mentioned earlier that data continues to evolve in this field. So in your opinion, what are the outstanding questions regarding the use of PMRT and what are you looking to for the future of research in this space? Dr. Rachel Jimenez: So there are a number of randomized phase III clinical trials that are either in active accrual or that have reported but not yet published that are exploring further de-escalation of postmastectomy radiation and of axillary surgery. And so we do not yet have sufficient data to understand how those two pieces of information integrate with each other. So for example, if you have a patient who has a positive lymph node at the time of diagnosis and forgoes axillary surgery aside from a sentinel lymph node biopsy, we do not yet know that we can also safely forgo radiation entirely in that setting. So we expect that future studies are going to address these questions and understand when it is appropriate to simultaneously de-escalate surgery and radiation. Additionally, there is a number of trials that are looking at ways in which radiation could be omitted or shortened. So there is the RT CHARM trial, which has reported but not yet published, looking at a shorter course of radiation. And so we do make recommendations around that shorter course of radiation in this guideline, but we anticipate that the additional data from the RT CHARM study will provide further evidence in support of that. Additionally, there is a study called the TAILOR RT trial, which looks at forgoing postmastectomy radiation in patients who, to Dr. Abdou's point, have a favorable tumor biology and a low 21-gene recurrence score. And so we are going to anticipate the results from that study to help guide who can selectively forgo postmastectomy radiation when they fall into that favorable risk category. So there are a number of questions that I think will help flesh out this guideline. And as they publish, we will likely publish a focused update on that information to help provide context for our colleagues in the field and clarify some of these recommendations to suit the latest data. Brittany Harvey: Absolutely. We will look forward to those de-escalation trials and ongoing research in the field to build on the evidence and look for future updates to this guideline. So I want to thank you for your work to update these guidelines, and thank you for your time today, Dr. Horst, Dr. Jimenez, and Dr. Abdou. Dr. Rachel Jimenez: Thank you. Dr. Yara Abdou: Thank you. Dr. Kathleen Horst: Thank you. Brittany Harvey: And then finally, thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/breast-cancer-guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO Guidelines app, which is available in the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. If you have enjoyed what you have heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. 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