Harrie Larrington-Spencer talks accessible cycling with Professor Rachel Aldred
Professor Aldred talks to Harriet Larrington-Spencer, a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. Harriet, or Harrie, developed an interest in active travel after experiencing cycling in Copenhagen and the Netherlands, and after losing the use of her left arm following a collision with a driver. Harrie discovered that while a tricycle was far easier for her to use, the physical barriers and chicanes in place on many of Britain’s cycleways make the use of three wheels challenging. Harrie talks about the challenges such infrastructure poses for non-standard cycle users, about other barriers to wider uptake, such as cost, what inclusive active travel would look like, and what research she would conduct, if money were no object. And, of course, about cycling with her dog, Frida. Healthy Active Cities is a research group bringing together researchers from the University of Salford, as well as practitioners and policymakers to discuss issues in sustainable transport. You can find out more about their work here: https://blogs.salford.ac.uk/healthyactivecities/TRANSCRIPT00:00Hi and welcome back to the Active Travel Podcast, brought to you by the Active Travel Academy, and to season two. We had a little break over Autumn, and we’ve all been busy working on lots of different projects, but we’re delighted to finally bring you the second episode – and we hope to have more in the weeks to come. But without further ado, let’s hand over to Professor Rachel Aldred, Active Travel Academy founder, and our guest.So I'm really happy to be here for an episode of the active travel podcast with Harriet Larrington-Spencer, who is a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. So hi, Harrie, good to have you here. 00:11Hi, Rachel, thank you for having me.00:14Great. So one of the things I wanted to start with is really about how you got into this how you got into researching active travel, because one of the great things about active travel is that it's people from a whole range of different backgrounds in the field in terms of disciplinary backgrounds. So can you tell me how you got into it?00:32Yeah, it's so my academic background is originally not active travel, I come from a geography background. So my bachelor's is in geography. And then I moved to the Netherlands to do my master's, which was in water management and irrigation. So very different from active travel. And whilst I was there, and I did my Erasmus as part of my masters in Copenhagen, just I went from kind of cycling for, for recreation and, and a bit of sport to cycling every day, when you arrive at university as an international student in the Netherlands, they tell you no bike, no life. So you kind of the first thing, the first thing they give you is a list of all the secondhand places to buy a bike. And then from that moment, cycling just became my natural form of transportation. And when I saw then I started my PhD. Back in the UK, in Manchester, I was cycling everyday for transportation, and I got hit by a car. And then I had to start changing the type of cycling. So whilst I was cycling for transportation, I was also doing cycling for sport. But I had to kind of start working out how to cycle for transportation in a way that I could do, because the the car damaged my left arm, so it doesn't work, and my hand doesn't work anymore. So it became How could I use a two wheel bike. So I started doing doing that. And even on two wheels, I found quite a lot of barriers to cycling, and doing my everyday journeys that I just hadn't considered before. And then more recently, to make it a lot easier for myself, I have a trike, and so I can do my shopping and carry my dog more easily. And the barriers that were difficult to negotiate on a on a bike have become impossible to negotiate on a trike. And so it started from there really, and and thinking about active travelling that everybody has a has a right basically, it's kind of the right to the city is that everyone should be able to move actively around their local neighbourhood, and how to enable that. 02:43Wow,Wow, thank you now I am going to pick up on different bits of that. But just to go back to the Netherlands experience. So when you went to the Netherlands, had you been cycling much before in this country? Were you completely new to it?02:55No, so I wasn't completely new I grew up in the middle of in the kind of the middle of nowhere in the countryside. So to get to see friends it was always cycling. But also, it was cycling through farmland and fields and or very small country lanes. And it was never really it wasn't an everyday thing. So to actually get anywhere, we had no bus service, you had to learn to drive if you wanted to get anywhere independently and before kind of 17,18 cycling offered that but it wasn't particularly viable to get very far. 03:39Yeah, I know I that sounds kind of familiar. And when you came back to Manchester after the or you came to Manchester after the Netherlands, how was it suddenly cycling in Manchester after having cycled in the Netherlands?03:50It’s just a complete world away. It's I think even if you remove the infrastructure from the UK from kind of that equation, the infrastructure makes a difference. But it’s also that I think everyone in the Netherlands who drives is also a cyclist. So it's, it's Yeah, the infrastructure is not there. And then also cyclists are not in the minds of drivers, either. So when I got hit by a car it was because the driver overtook me and turned left because they didn't even and it was across the segregated cycle lane as well. So it's that they didn't even think that they had to kind of consider that there might be a cyclist on the cycle lane and yeah, completely different.04:39Yeah, it just highlights the need for the infrastructure but also the need for the cultural change behaviour change as well at the same time. And then you were talking about how you cycling as a disabled cyclist using a two wheeler and then using a trike was was different. Could you say a little bit more about that and about some of the barriers that you experienced there.05:00With, with two wheels, I can I can do it and I can I can cycle in, it's fine. But moving the handlebars is quite difficult picking up my bike is difficult. So the probably the biggest barrier is if you are using shared paths and then there's barriers on the shared path. So you've got, A frames are the worst, but there's also chicanes. So I think most of you probably know what chicanes are, but kind of small fences to slow you down. So it just started with the two wheels, you kind of you can negotiate it, but it takes time and it takes energy and I can't really lift my bike and it causes pain when I do it. And then when you get to three wheels, because the cycle is longer and it's wider, you literally cannot like you can't get it past A frames, and sometimes you can get it past chicanes but to do that, my husband has to kind of pick up the trike and negotiate it around. I can't do that at all by myself. So it just it means that that certain cycle, cycling routes are completely off limits to me. And they're often the cycle routes that are the nicest ones, because they're completely away from cars and roads.06:13And why why do you think this kind of this kind of thing exists? Why given that, you know, potentially it's not in line with equality legislation?06:21So the kind of technical reason that they're there is to prevent motorcycles and and anti-social behaviour on cycle routes. Often, it's part of the planning permission to get the route and the police have to if a route is going to be off road, then the police have to agree to it as well. And the police's kind of standard response is an A frame. And some residents also want A frames as well, because there's, I think there's often a fear of this kind of antisocial behaviour from motorcycles, not necessarily that it's going to happen. So, yeah, and it's and now, kind of, the more I get into it, the more I struggle, because I think kind of maybe a few years ago, it was that councils wouldn't know about the Equality Act and kind of the what, what their responsibilities are to disabled cyclists. But more and more, I'm seeing councils saying things like, Oh, we've looked at LTN 1/20 [Local Transport Note 1/20 – cycle infrastructure design guidance], which very specifically says, Don't use A frames, don't use chicanes, and the council's will recognise that, that they should not be using those and they shouldn't be implementing those. And that by implementing those, they're excluding disabled cyclists. But at the same time, they kind of say, we're doing it anyway. And we've got no other way to manage motorcyclists. So this is what we'll do.07:53Yeah, so that's, they'll just probably pick up on the LTN 1/20, the new cycle infrastructure design guidance. So that's seen some improvements, but obviously, isn't necessarily feeding through into practice. And does it highlight the extent to which things need to be aligned for things to change? If the police, you know, you don't necessarily just need transport just use to change in transport planning, but also the police and so on as well.08:15Yeah, it definitely needs to be a much more joined up approach. And even now, in in Stockport, we're seeing that there are routes that aren’t accessible. So if you look at LTN 1/20, they say that the ideal route be at least spaced at 1.5 metres. And so in Stockport, they're taking cycle routes and walking routes that have this spacing already. And they're putting chicanes on them. And I've just saw a proposal yesterday where they're asking for an A frame barrier. So yeah, there's there needs to be working with police and with residents and with disabled people, as well. But to me, it shouldn't be the kind of the equality of access should be the centre point. And it's what should we be do? What can we do to achieve that rather, than kind of the restricting of motorcycles being being the point where where they start design?09:11Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of trying to restrict a minority of problematic users of one mode, that's maybe not even actually the case. It's something that's feared rather than trying to ensure inclusive access for for walking cycling, which is meant to be something that's being encouraged.09:25Yeah, exactly. And the more people you have using a route legitimately, the less attractive it will be to anyone on a motorcycle if, if you think that you're going to access that route, because it's kind of an empty space that you can whisper on your bike. It's much less attractive. If it's full of everybody on trikes bikes with push chairs walking, it's, it's very different.09:50Great, and that sort of brings up another topic, which is around inclusivity of active travel. So could you maybe sort of tell us a little bit about what active travel, how inclusive active travel is or what what needs to change.10:04I think active travel is getting much more inclusive, I see a lot of people who are non-disabled, recognising the barriers that disabled people have to active travel, I think at kind of a grassroots level, especially, it's happening more with sport than with active travel is that is kind of getting disabled people more involved, recognising the barriers that disabled people have. I think in active travel, it would really help if design centred disabled people, because anything designed for disabled people is is going to be good for everybody. So with cycling, there's so there is a lot of barriers for disabled people, anyone who wants to use a non standard cycle, there's not only the infrastructural barriers, and you, you know they're there. So it's kind of like why would you invest in something if the routes that you want to go on with your family or your friends, you can't get on. And then on top of that, you have the you have the cost of the equipment. So a non standard cycle is 1000s and 1000s of pounds. And then on top of that you have the insurance of it, you have to have the secure storage to meet the insurance requirements. And then you also need to know that when you cycle somewhere there will be a secure place to lock your site as well. So I found with my trike, I can't, I can't even use the Sheffield stand without taking up multiple spaces on the Sheffield stands. And I don't want to block other people from being able to be able to park their cycles. So there's kind of there's all these factors that have to be accounted for. And it's the same with with walking, with using a wheelchair that so much of the urban environment isn't isn't suitable for just independently using your wheelchair to get to your to your local area, whether there's no pavement drops, if there's pavement parking, parks that don't have accessible entrances to them. It's it when and when you start noticing it and I think this has happened a lot with non-disabled people as well when disabled people who who are working in active travel and are advocates within it have started pointing it out is that once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it and and it's just it defies belief really, that you would have a park that not everybody can connect thiswill be because of barriers at the gates because of steps.12:33Yes. So very similar things to cycle paths is that you have kind of the chicane entrances into the park, which make it quite difficult, especially if you're on something more recumbent. If you're on a hand cycle, for example. So you're lower down, and you'll have a longer base. Yeah, even wheelchairs, I think sometimes struggled to go through the these spaces unless it's a wide open gate.13:00And do you think that's starting to change in planning at all? I mean, if advocates are noticing it are planners noticing it, are things getting better.13:07I think that things are changing. So LTN 1/20 was an a massive win for inclusive cycling and that you can you read through that document and you see the advocacy work of Wheels for Wellbeing in there, and how powerfully and positively they've impacted the world of inclusive cycling, in terms of planning from councils. In Greater Manchester, I feel like there's much more awareness of it, but there's a real struggle to start making those changes for whatever reason. And I, I do think there needs to be a bit of bravery that I can understand that some of these are quite big changes. To say we're not going to restrict access is a big change to how kind of urban planning has been done. But I've also seen some really positive things. So Manchester highways has recently created an access group but that's because it's that has a lot of disabled people with a lot of different kind of experiences and skills. And they are hopefully going to listen to those views when when they're implementing active travel projects. But yeah, it's kind of a time will tell.14:23You were mentioning about Manchester highways and maybe it's time to say something about the Greater Manchester context because Greater Manchester is I think it's something like 2.7 million people across the urban area. So yeah, large urban area, metropolitan area, different authorities and so on different levels of planning. So how does that work in terms of active travel? How is it structured and you know, is it different authorities in charge of different bits and so on?14:50Yeah, so different authorities will be in charge of their own area. I think we then have the Bee networks for for walking and cycling with Chris Boardman who is the walking and cycling Commissioner. So this is trying to join those up a bit and have a more integrated approach to walking and cycling. It's a struggle because for different councils have different approaches and different histories, I mean, you can definitely see in Salford at the moment they've, they're really progressing with their walking and cycling, working to make things much more inclusive. So they've on one of the big walking and cycling trails, they've just been removing barriers and replacing them with bollards that are 1.5 metres apart and celebrating that as well on social media recognising that it's, it's a really positive thing to be doing, and showing that as a positive example to councils in Greater Manchester. And I think having that kind of the overall Bee network, having committed to having an inclusive approach, they have the the 12 year old cycling is the body around which the infrastructure has been built. Personally, I think the 12 year old should be on a trike. But but it's kind of getting there. And they've they've said no barriers, although you see that being put into practice quite differently, but there is pushback against it. And also, in Greater Manchester, we have Walk Ride, which is a community-based organisation. So there's the central body. And then there's all different smaller groups of people who are really interested in walking and cycling. And you see such fantastic work within those smaller groups that they have really good connections with their councils and the walking and cycling forums. And they're, they're putting a lot of pressure onto the councillors to make sure that everything done is thinking about everyone who who wants to use those, the walking and cycling infrastructure that's being built. And it's just really nice to see kind of everybody committed to making things inclusive, because often, there's a lot of what has to be done. And it often falls onto the shoulders of disabled people to do that labour. So it's nice to not always have to be the one that is pointing out the issues and following up with councillors and councils.17:15And do you think that's kind of important as well that you have? Because that's quite distinctive that you have the sort of walking and cycling advocates together in the same in the same advocacy group? Does that make a big difference?17:26Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I think the speed with which, with which Walk Ride GM and the smaller local groups have grown over the past couple of years, really demonstrates kind of the local appetite for walking and cycling. And the skills in those groups that has developed as well is amazing. So for some people, it's that they they work within walking and cycling design or infrastructure, behaviour change within local councils, and they have those skills from their jobs and from their training. But for some people there, they're kind of new to it, and learning and reading all of this all of the documents and policies that are being produced and it's just fantastic for people being able to hold the councillors to to their word basically. And to the point where people if something's installed, and it doesn't look right, or I pointed out something at the weekend, someone was there measuring it with a tape measure to check out whether the distance between the chicanes meets with the accessibility, design guidelines. Yeah, it’s really cool.18:38Returning to the barriers side of things, we talked quite a bit about the physical barriers, but you talked earlier also about the sort of cost and linked with that the storage that you don't want to store something that's expensive, it might get, you know, if it's not secure, it might get stolen, do you think more needs to be done to improve access, you know, availability, affordability of adaptive cycles, ie bikes and trikes and so on?18:59Yeah, definitely. And there's, I think part of it is that if we are moving towards a modal shift, then having these products because they are quite a rare thing. So if you're having to import them, and there's very few being imported, then they're going to be higher cost. So there's kind of one aspect is the more people we have doing it then hopefully a reduction in cost, but they kind of, they are specialist, so they're going to be more expensive than a standard two wheel cycle. So there's some really great schemes going on. So Wheels for Wellbeing have one scheme in London, which is looking at loaning people non-standard cycles, and really helping people choose cycles that are appropriate for them. And and being able to do a loan scheme that can then turn into ownership if they're interested in it. And also, Cycling Projects has a similar thing in West Midlands and we're setting up a trike library in in Manchester and then hopefully that will if people will get a chance to experience trikes, because you, if if they're rare, and you don't get a chance to have a go on them, you're not going to splash out 2000 pounds if you don't, if you don't know how it's going to fit in your life that you really, you need to start doing those everyday journeys, you need to have a go at taking your trike to the, to the shop to get milk and to work. Yeah, and have that that space to build it up and build up over time and see whether it works. So I think with the trike library that we've raised money for, as part of Walk Ride in Manchester, we're going to hopefully loan out cycles for three months at a time maybe more and and help people with journey planning, with ride buddying, and all of those smaller parts to get people into it. The storage, the storage is is a real issue. And it also comes into into policing as well and, and monitoring. And if you I think bike crime is is very low on the police agenda at the moment, because there's not that much funding to police. So it's working out ways to do that. And there is this kind of on on road storage that we've seen in Waltham Forest, and you can get adapted versions of that. So there's options that we just need to keep pushing for and and ensuring that when we're thinking about those options, so in in Greater Manchester, there is there is some of I think in Salford there's some of these on streets cycle hangers, but for people to push for ones that can have non-standard cycles as well, when they're kind of being brought up in that local area.21:32Do you think there's potentially a role for a more universal scheme as well? Because one of the things, one of the criticisms that's been made of the cycle to work scheme is that, you know, certainly you have to have an employer that's opted in it excludes anybody who's not in employment. So a lot of older people, proportionally more disabled people and so on. Do you think we kind of need a more universal access to cycling scheme?21:53Yeah, we definitely do at the moment, it's kind of it falls on the the charity sector to be implementing it and their capacity to implement it is based upon their resources and always scraping the money together to be able to do it. And it's really frustrating when it's something that would help so many people. Yeah, I mean, a universal scheme would be amazing. I tried to you can, there's ways to do it through kind of access to work. But it's always there's always kind of caveats within it. And it's so that you just have to keep arguing for it. So most ability is the obvious way to do it. And there are mobility aids that you access through Motability, so to have that as as a way to do it. And also in the Netherlands, they have very similar schemes where disabled people can have access to active travel equipment. Yeah, and it's it's at a time when I think people are really recognising that disabled people want to be more active, the benefits the public health benefits of disabled people being more active are huge and organisations like great, like, Sport England, as we come out of the pandemic are centralising disable people within within their programmes, and they want to disproportionately invest in disabled people. So I think it is a really good time to start thinking about how to make these how to make access to to non-standard cycles and adaptive cycles, kind of a universal scheme.23:21Cool. And what would if you were thinking about, you know, the your priorities for getting most disabled people cycling, what would you What would you prioritise? What would you think would be the most important thing?23:36One would be the access to the cycles. Two would be working out connected routes within cities. So in Greater Manchester, we have the Bee networks, but we need to look at how the Bee networks connect and with the existing infrastructure that we already have, and how to make that infrastructure barrier free and accessible. Another one would be looking at cycles as mobility aids in in Greater Manchester, for example, people aren't allowed to take cycles onto the trams, which really inhibits multimodal journeys. So you can't you couldn't cycle from, I don't know Sale into Manchester City Centre as a disabled person to work and then think actually, I'm too tired to cycle home let me take my let me take my cycle on the tram. So because you can't do that, then you're, you're then making it a less viable option because you can't do those first and last, or you Yeah, you can't do those parts you need by public transport. So and also to be able to use the pedestrian areas if you need it to be able to put your shopping onto your bike or trike close to the shops and, and having the storage for it as well. And it doesn't I mean for shopping, it doesn't have to be the super-secure sheltered storage. It's just having storage solutions that are well spaced that can that you can use with a trike and have space to not only put your trike, but you have to think about how people are getting off and on. So you need to have that space between the stands.25:16Well, one question I was going to ask was on the research theme was getting obviously this is an under researched area if what would your sort of fantasy research project be if you had a 2 million pound research budget or whatever, you know, imagine? Imagine the zeros what what would your research programme be looking at inclusive cycling, eco inclusive active travel?25:37So for I think inclusive active travel, I think it would be fascinating to do a community mapping project where you work with disabled people's organisations, and you have disabled people map their, their everyday journeys that they do, either by whatever mode of transport they're doing, and then work with people to to look at how active travel can replace non active travel journeys basically. So and to work on the very close ones, so going to places for for small amounts of shopping, going to visit your children going to visit your parents going to the park, taking the kids to school, those journeys, but looking really specifically at the different types of challenges that people have with those. And working out how to then use that to, to create kind of more local regeneration. Because Yeah, because you're not going to get active travel if people physically can't use that their local environment. And and think about how to prioritise those. So that's one aspect. And another aspect I'm really interested in is shared space in in urban centres, because it is a really it's a very aesthetically pleasing thing to have, I think shared space. But obviously, there's a lot of challenges that it offers and conflicting challenges that it has for for different groups of people. So for visually impaired people in particular shared space is quite a challenging thing to have in it can create an environment that that whilst statistically, it's probably very unlikely that you're going to get hit by a bike, it doesn't stop the environment being hostile. So thinking about the types of behaviour within shared spaces and and how to kind of move cohesion both move cohesively and behave in cohesive ways of in the shared space. But also what type of infrastructures within the shared space, enable that that type of behaviour. So kind of a two way approach to that.27:39And actually just thinking about that in terms of the infrastructure and sharing infrastructures, are there good examples? We've talked quite a bit about the barriers and some of the problems, can you think of good examples of environments that work well for inclusive active travel and either in Greater Manchester or somewhere else, and why why it's good.27:59We have a couple of bits now in Greater Manchester, it’s difficult, because actually one of the best places for kind of walking and cycling in Greater Manchester is Oxford Road. So and it is a really, really good piece of infrastructure, but the cycle track is just not quite wide enough. So I can't actually use it on the trike. But normally, I would say that there is a few bits of segregated cycle lanes that are kind of four metres wide, and have space for bi directional cycling flow. So I mean, these are perfect. But that's quite a short stretch, I'm trying to think of something. I think low traffic neighbourhoods, for example, have a real opportunity for for inclusive active travel, they don't have the segregated cycle lanes, obviously, but by reducing the cars using the roads, there is that space for any type of cycle. There's space for wheelchairs and mobility scooters. I think the the challenge with low traffic neighbourhoods is that it's not you don't automatically make them inclusive by filtering the cars from them and that the the existing infrastructures within them already can still pose challenges. So I think speed bumps is quite a good example that if you are non-disabled and walking or cycling, a speed bump isn't going to bother you. But if you're on a recumbent cycle, the speed bumps are not very pleasant at all. And the same with pavement drops as well.And there's a lot of the the issues around the built environment. So some of those things around narrow bike lanes or narrow footways and so on. 29:29So is a lot of that to do with accommodating motor traffic and then sort of people on foot, people on bikes that have had to fight it out for what's left.29:47Yeah, exactly. And you see a lot of space for cycling always seems to be reallocating space away from pedestrians. So the weekend I visited a new proposed walking and cycling route through Ancoats well from New Islington to Ancoats along a really really nice marina that's full of people walking, it's kind of there's a few different bakeries, it's a really nice space. And in this area there's not there's not that many open spaces. And instead of putting a segregated cycleway on the main road, which has five lanes of traffic, and has recently had 10 million pounds spent on its upgrade, they are trying to Manchester council is trying to put the walking and cycling route, which is a is a major league route. So it is specifically for commuting through this very pedestrian recreational, kind of sitting and being space, rather than then taking that space away from cars. And by doing that, you automatically kind of put pedestrians and cyclists at odds with each other both in terms of the space itself, but also within this wider space of kind of what a city is and who is in a city where people are supposed to be in the city. And it shouldn't be like that if we really want to have modal shift we need to start reallocating space away from cars and a lot of time if you do anything like that, then you get a lot of uproar from drivers. But there's there's very little discussion about kind of taking that space away from pedestrians and I think that's Yeah, it's often pedestrians who do suffer within that.31:28In terms of the the Greater Manchester context as well. What would you say in the next five years? Do you think things will be different in five years what hopefully what what might have changed around sort of inclusive active travel?31:42I would really like to see more people on non-standard cycles. I've definitely noticed that since I started getting since I have been cycling on a trike. I've had a lot more people on social media, for example, saying, I've never even considered a trike as an option. I thought trikes were for old people, and people saying that they're considering one as well now. And that's really nice, because it shows that you need to see people doing something for you to start considering that it's an option for yourself as well. So I think that's one aspect that if we get more people cycling, and more disabled people cycling, then hopefully it will be kind of it will build. So that's one aspect, I think another aspect is is the access to inclusive cycles. And that's something that needs to be worked on. Another one is with the Bee networks, is that we just need to keep the momentum and the energy of holding councils to account to to ensure that when things are being implemented, they're being implemented inclusively and to LTN 1/20. In it, it helps so much to have that design guidance, really, because you can just keep sending it and saying, you know, this is this is what this is what needs to happen. I think more widely, we need more than just kind of the Bee networks, we need to be looking at local journeys and how to enable those local journeys. And to maybe move I move a bit away from from focusing on commuting journeys is Yeah, and it's looking at the everyday and I think children's journeys as well as a really nice way to do that. Because they're going to school and back. That's two journeys a day. But then obviously, you need to start looking at the wider practices around that because it's hard sometimes for parents to be able to take their children to school. So we need to have the safe infrastructure for that. But it Yeah, to have this kind of joined up approach where there's the policy, there's the projects, there's the infrastructure.33:53So earlier you were mentioning cycling as well with with your dog, who's become something of a star on social media. Could you say something about your dog?34:00Yes, so we got Frida we got her very luckily at the start of the just before the start of the first lockdown. I just I had a bit of trouble at first after my accident. So kind of I'd always been doing cycling for for everyday cycling, cycling since living in the Netherlands, but also I used to do a lot of touring, cycling and sports cycling. And I was really struggling with not being able to do those anymore. And so it's just trying to find ways to enjoy a different type of everyday life. And I've always wanted a dog and we'd always be putting it off saying you know, we'll wait until we live in a house with a big garden and then just finally was really fed up and bought. Let's just do it and she'll be a good excuse to kind of go out the weekends and then because we don't have a car and Cycling is our primary form of transport from the second day we had her we started training, training her I'm not sure that's the right word, but we kind of put her in a backpack and put her on the bike and fed her lots of treats. And she just, she just loves it. She's, she's very attention seeking, which is amazing. So she'll be, she'll be like, sitting in in the bucket of the cargo trike and she'll be quite chilled out and she'll hear people in the distance and she'll suddenly pop up to give them a show, I think. And I think people really like it. They, I, I'm very, I'm very shy and I, I find it quite embarrassing, but it is really nice to cycle past people and see their really positive reaction. And I think it draws attention cycling as well because normally it's quite like a fast someone will just go past you but you can't really notice if and often I carry my husband as well in the front bucket of my of my cargo trike. So it's quite obvious when we get when we're going past and Frida’s at the front. So, yeah, yes. And, well, funnily enough as well. I haven't had any close passes on the trike since cycling with Frida ever. So I think that's, I mean, there's something to say there about how people value dogs over over human beings as well. But yeah, really, she loves it, she just sits in the bucket with her goggles. And the goggles is because we started using the cargo trike because it's a bit lower down, I was worried about stones flicking up into her eyes. But she takes it all in her stride. And she she's always excited. I think it's because we are, we kind of started building in having trips, we will do our shopping. But it's about more than doing shopping. It's about going for a nice cycle along nice routes, and stopping at a park where we can throw tennis balls for her and, you know, come back via a nice way to have coffee. So it's kind of it's trying to make, because I've been I've just really loved cycling, so it's making cycling my hobby, but in a in a different way and a more everyday way. So Friday is a really important part of that. But yeah, I mean, I changed my I changed my Twitter handle to Tricycle Mayor. And then some someone said to me that actually it was Friday that was the Tricycle Mayor, and now I've realised that they they are correct. 37:32Everybody loves dogs on bikes, I think my popular tweet ever was just a picture of somebody with three dogs in her cargo bike.37:37Yeah, exactly. They're just they are a people pleaser.37:41Excellent. No, that does link back nicely into the question that I've just remembered. I was going to ask you, which was when you were talking about sort of local trips? So there's been a lot of talk recently about the well, it varies. Sometimes it's the 15 minutes city, sometimes it's the 20 minute neighbourhood, this kind of focus on things being local, do you think that that's useful? those concepts are kind of useful as well?38:01I do. I really like them, I think that we need to, I prefer the 20 minute neighbourhood just in terms of people's speeds. And I, I, I hope that kind of from people spending a lot more time in their local areas as well during COVID. And locked down that perhaps people see the value in that as well. And in my research at the moment, and just talking about people about what they've been doing during lockdown and how they've been using their local neighbourhoods, it's really nice to hear how people know their local neighbourhoods a lot better. And spending a lot more time and getting to know all of the different roads and using local shops and local places to go and get a coffee when they go and walk. And I yeah, I mean, for us it comes into the same kind of having, trying to make cycling and doing these everyday activities part of the hobby. So we're starting to use a local refill shop, for example, and cut that part off of off of supermarket shopping. And it does, it's having the time to do that as well. So there is a there's a time element that you have to have kind of that disposable time to be able to go there. So I'm we're looking at how to do all of our shopping locally, and what we can do plastic free.Thanks so much Harrie, that was a really great chat and I look forward to seeing what happens with you next with your research with Greater Manchester. You've been listening to the active travel podcast. 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