As Content Gets Cheap, Credibility Gets Expensive

Hi friend! Are ya new here? Fear not. In this short episode which was inspired by desire to explain my job to my mom, I break down all things zero-click for the non-marketers and non-chronically-online people.This episode originally aired in July as, “Zero Click Marketing for Your Mom.” I hope you enjoy it too! (My mom doesn’t know how to listen to podcasts.)In this episode:00:00 — Zero-click marketing for the normies01:09 — Paul Rudd and the zero click internet02:41 — The broken bargain between platforms and publishers03:50 — How AI accelerates the shift06:00 — What my NPR/Planet Money interview reveals about influence07:32 — Making ideas useful, clear, and memorable enough to travelOf course, you’ll learn all about this and more in my and Rand Fishkin’s book, Zero Click Marketing. You can order it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, Walmart, and of course, through  zeroclickmarketing.co/book. Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

What even is content marketing in the zero-click world? Spoiler: it looks a lot like PR, YouTube, and social media.Amanda Milligan, who leads YouTube strategy at Semrush, joins me to talk about what she's learned from working across SEO, digital PR, and content marketing. We discuss how/why PR practitioners have always been doing zero click marketing, how to build a smarter B2B YouTube strategy, and why the best-performing content isn't always the cleverest.Timestamps:00:00 – Why great PR pitches require audience research (and a lot of work)06:44 – What makes stories newsworthy? Lessons from earned media08:34 – The digital PR principles that still work today12:22 – Why AI is bringing SEO and PR closer together18:14 – Building Semrush's YouTube strategy21:51 – YouTube content for search vs. the recommendation algorithm25:44 – Are creators withholding information to drive engagement?31:42 – Will human-made content become a premium?Connect with Amanda Milligan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandamilligan/Check out Semrush: https://www.semrush.com/Check out Amanda and Semrush on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@semrush Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

What makes a book worth reading, remembering, and recommending?Ben Putano, founder and CEO of Damn Gravity (and Rand’s and my publisher!), explains why books might be one of the most powerful marketing tools in a zero-click world.We get into why great books need one memorable idea, how to engineer word of mouth, why romance authors might be better at positioning than business authors, and how to market a book by starting with your biggest fans instead of chasing the broadest possible audience.Timestamps:00:00 – Why books are powerful in a zero-click world02:19 – What books can accomplish that other marketing assets can't09:20 – Books that changed the way we think17:00 – What business authors can learn from romance novels19:29 – The dinner party test for communicating big ideas23:06 – How to market a book before it's published27:23 – Bestseller lists vs. actual influenceConnect with Ben Putano: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-putano/Check out Damn Gravity Media: https://www.damngravity.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

I tossed out the idea that “today GEO is CRO,” and it gave Ross Hudgens actual goosebumps, because he’d just written about the same thing. Ross argues that if you can convince a user to buy, you can convince an LLM to recommend you. Ross is the founder of Siege Media and author of Generative Engine Optimization, and we talked about what actually drives AI visibility. We discuss his research on more than 100 B2B websites, why comparison pages are associated with more AI referral traffic, and the limitations of AI attribution.Timestamps:00:00 — Is GEO just SEO with a new name?07:20 — Research: Why comparison pages are winning in AI search09:23 — Is GEO the new CRO?16:03 — Measuring AI influence when nobody clicks22:37 — How smaller brands can compete in AI searchConnect with Ross Hudgens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/ Check out Siege Media: https://www.siegemedia.com Get Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO: https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

Rand Fishkin (my co-author!)  is back on the show for a special episode about our new book, Zero Click Marketing.We talk about what surprised us while recording the audiobook, and some of the Zero Click Marketing ideas that marketers have pushed back on the most.We get especially fired up about attribution and post-purchase surveys and taking stronger positions in your content. Plus, learn how an expert like Rand is learning an entirely new kind of marketing as he builds his gaming company, Snack Bar Studios.In this episode:00:00 — Why useful advice requires taking a position03:55 — AI, gatekeeping, and the freedom to build things yourself08:26 — Why Rand is deliberately making his content weirder and more human12:00 — What marketers understand — and resist — about Zero-Click Marketing14:24 — The problem with “How did you hear about us?”18:50 — A surprise cameo20:12 — Why free-text attribution surveys don't solve the problem25:28 — The question to ask customers instead30:09 — The opportunity cost of asking a bad question31:23 — How Rand learned to market an indie video game from scratch38:37 — Please buy our book. Or don't. We're very good at this.Buy our book, “Zero Click Marketing: How to Build Brands and Earn Customers on a Traffic-Starved Web,” at zeroclickmarketing.co/book or on Amazon!Connect with Rand Fishkin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randfishkin/?isSelfProfile=false Check out SparkToro: https://sparktoro.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

Marketing keeps changing. But good marketing? Not so much.Sarah Stockdale, founder and CEO of Growclass, joins me to talk about what still matters as algorithms, AI, attribution, and the platforms change. We talk about what still wins, and one crucial skill you still need today.In this episode:00:00 Why good marketing was never supposed to be easy03:30 The fundamentals that still matter07:15 Why changing user behavior is so hard15:39 What “direct traffic” is hiding16:15 When your marketing data is too good to be true18:51 What still matters in the age of AI20:09 Skepticism for…22:47 How Growclass investigates direct traffic and dark socialConnect with Sarah Stockdale: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahstockdale/ Check out Growclass: http://growclass.co Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

Josh Ho, founder and CEO of ReferralRock, and I chit chat about marketing challenges and opportunities as of late. My fave part of this episode is when Josh explains how ReferralRock turns its existing customer conversations into an always-on source of audience research — using real customer language and anecdotes to shape strategy. (This happens about 15 minutes in!)We also get into why marketers need both audience data and anecdotes, what AI changes about qualitative research, and how the smallest, weirdest details can sometimes become the most memorable parts of a brand.Timestamps00:00 — How Josh learned marketing through SEO and inbound05:23 — How ReferralRock gets customers today07:55 — When attribution is broken, what do you measure instead?13:34 — AI search, prompts, and understanding buyer intent15:10 — Turning customer calls into an audience research engine20:47 — Creating content from what customers actually ask about27:47 — Why marketers need “audiences + anecdotes”30:02 — Blue spoons, memorable details, and creating word of mouth35:29 — What does a “blue spoon” look like in B2B SaaS?Connect with Josh Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuajho/Check out Referral Rock: https://referralrock.com Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

Wil Reynolds joins me to chop it up over what AI is changing — and what it’s revealing — about marketing, expertise, and trust. We talk about using AI without losing your voice, why accountability may matter more than “taste,” and how AI search is making it harder for brands to simply optimize their way into credibility. Wil also explains why he’d rather measure human trust than algorithmic visibility, how an intern exposed gaps in his own 25+ years of SEO experience, and why this moment in AI has rekindled the way he wants to build Seer Interactive.Chapters00:00 — Human trust vs. algorithmic proxies03:14 — Spotting AI slop on LinkedIn06:23 — The upside of competition in AI08:15 — AI, creativity, and owning your work25:49 — Taste vs. accountability in an AI world27:58 — AI search is forcing brands to bring receipts34:21 — Why SEO and AI visibility aren’t the same38:42 — Measuring human trust instead of algorithmic traffic46:29 — Hiring for a world that’s changing againConnect with Wil Reynolds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilreynolds/ Check out Seer Interactive: https://www.seerinteractive.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Wistia CEO Chris Savage joins me to talk about how marketing has evolved in recent years, especially now as attribution keeps getting harder. We also dig into building sustainable content programs, finding opportunities in saturated channels, making the case for creative risks, and why some of the ideas that are hardest to green-light are actually the most valuable.Timestamps00:00 — Why the hardest ideas end up being the most valuable01:31 — Wistia’s sustainable approach building its podcast06:38 — Let the audience choose the format10:19 — Marketing in a zero-click world14:02 — Massive opportunities in untrackable marketing16:36 — How to pitch bold ideas to leadership20:42 — Where Chris would invest if he were starting from scratch28:19 — Brand search as a leading marketing indicator31:05 — How marketers can manage up more effectivelyConnect with Chris Savage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjsavage/ Check out Talking Too Loud: https://wistia.com/series/talking-too-loud Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com 

As AI makes it easier to produce more content, podcasting offers something increasingly valuable: unmistakable evidence of a real person behind those ideas. Erica Bonser, co-founder of Fan Club, joins me to talk about what success should actually look like for a new show, and how marketers can turn a podcast into a sustainable engine — without expecting immediate business results.Chapters00:00 — Why podcasting feels distinctly human in the AI era00:41 — What fitness brands teach us about identity and marketing09:53 — Starting a podcast makes you a better communicator11:34 — What should a podcast actually accomplish?15:45 — Defining success and overcoming the “podcast graveyard”19:10 — Why Erica isn’t worried about business outcomes yet22:12 — The reality of sustaining a podcast23:47 — Erica’s podcasting cheat sheet for 2026Connect with Erica Bonser: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-bonser/ Check out Fan Club Brands: https://fanclubbrands.co/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.coConnect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | ThreadsThis episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com