The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast

 I had the opportunity to interview Ann Russo, LCSW — a licensed clinical social worker and theologian — to discuss her ground-breaking work in treating religious trauma. Russo has developed the Religious Trauma Treatment Model (RTTM), the first clinical framework designed to help therapists identify and treat religious harm and trauma in their clients.   With her book Treating Religious Trauma: An Integrative Framework for Clinicians forthcoming in 2027, Ann shares how her unique perspective — growing up outside the church and later immersing herself in evangelical Christianity out of curiosity — shaped her understanding of how rigid, high-control religious systems impact people across all faiths and backgrounds.  The conversation covers the nature of religious trauma as sustained, repeated harm rather than a single traumatic event, drawing on my own experiences with rapture anxiety and childhood indoctrination. Ann outlines her RECAPS model (Regulate, Educate, Clarify, Align, Practice, Sustain), emphasizing nervous system regulation as foundational work, and explains how her approach meets clients wherever they are — whether they choose to stay in their faith, shift it, or walk away entirely.    We also explore the overlap between high-control religion and cult psychology, the importance of psychoeducation in recovery, and how triggers can serve as valuable information rather than mere setbacks, offering a path toward reclaiming autonomy and finding new forms of meaning after religious harm.  Find Ann at her website here: Home - Ann Russo Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]

In this week's episode, I speak with Dr. Tina Schermer-Sellers about the damage caused by evangelical purity culture and religious sexual shame. Dr. Tina traces how her own body-positive upbringing contrasted with what she saw in her therapy students' stories — a dramatic shift around 2000 toward deep self-hatred and shame, driven by abstinence-only education and authoritarian religious parenting. She explains how these movements taught children to fear their bodies and desires, damaging their ability to give and receive love. The conversation then covers paths to healing. Dr. Tina outlines her "MESS" model (Frame, Name, Claim, Aim) for erasing sexual shame, highlights sex-positive traditions within Jewish scripture that were never brought into Christianity, and discusses the added trauma of conversion therapy for LGBTQ+ individuals. She closes by advocating for MDMA-assisted therapy as a powerful trauma-healing tool — when done within proper therapeutic and integrative contexts. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]

In this episode, I interviewed Chelsea Kim Long about her forthcoming book, Faithfully Dissident Daughters: Reclaiming Christian Womanhood Beyond Patriarchy. The conversation opens with a discussion of the Southern Baptist denomination's recent ruling restricting women from pastoral roles and the broader rise of Christian nationalism in the United States. Chelsea shares her personal story of growing up in non-denominational evangelicalism in the Midwest, where she was steeped in conservative patriarchal theology that framed gender hierarchies as benevolent.   She describes how her faith began to crack during college, first through questions about LGBTQ inclusion and social justice, and then more profoundly after becoming a mother — when pregnancy, a traumatic birth, postpartum depression, and infertility collided with a theology that had no framework for her embodied suffering. She recounts being told by church communities not to seek mental health medication, enduring years of shame and silence, and finally starting medication in 2020, which she describes as life changing.  Chelsea frames her deconstruction as an "hourglass" experience — everything she knew passed through a narrow, painful filter of grief and self-reckoning, but emerged into a more expansive, authentic faith. She now identifies as post-evangelical but remains a committed Christian, serving as a lay pastor and theologian in an intentional house church community.    Her book argues for a Christianity shaped by women's wisdom and embodied spiritual practice, pushing back against male-dominated theology and calling for spaces where women's bodies, voices, and leadership are fully affirmed. The episode closes with Chelsea describing the book's practical elements — journaling prompts, meditative coloring pages, a discussion guide, and chapters on embodied spiritual practices — and sharing where listeners can pre-order the book and connect with her online.  Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]

Author Meg Calvin joins me on the podcast to share her journey from preaching at age 13 in the Methodist church to leaving full-time ministry in 2018. She reflects on how people-pleasing and unhealed childhood wounds drove her pastoral work, and we commiserate about the dysfunctional dynamics of church leadership—pedestals, underpayment, and unqualified boards blocking vision. After leaving ministry, Meg spent eight years exploring mysticism and intuitive development, which culminated in a profound encounter with Jesus that led her back to church—this time integrating her mystical gifts alongside her faith. She now coaches spiritual leaders in writing their books and has just released her debut novel entitled There, He Holds Her. Find a copy of Meg's book here on Amazon! Become a part of The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community Email: [email protected]

In this week's episode, I welcome back a returning guest and good friend, Canadian author and former fundamentalist Christian, Janice Selbie. We discuss her upcoming book, The Guru Gene: From Blind Faith to Clear Thinking in an Age of Influence, dropping at the end of August.   We explore why intelligent, educated people are just as susceptible to cults, cons, and high-control groups as anyone else. To explain this, we touch on cognitive biases like pareidolia and apophenia, the role of certainty over accuracy, echo chambers, and cult dynamics evident in religion, politics (including MAGA and Trump-worship), and beyond.   Drawing on our personal deconversion experiences, we also discuss the destabilizing nature of deconstruction, the importance of community both within and after leaving high-demand groups, and practical tools—like Socratic questioning, intellectual humility, and tolerating uncertainty—for resisting manipulation and helping others find their way out. For those who have left a cult or high-control religious group, this conversation will empower you both to discover and rebuild your authentic self.  Religious Trauma Syndrome Coaching, Workshop & Support Group | Divorcing Religion  Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community at this link! Email: [email protected]

This week's conversation features an interview with Josh Foster, a former missionary kid turned licensed therapist who specializes in helping people recover from religious trauma. Josh recounts how his life changed dramatically at age five when his parents converted to conservative evangelicalism, leading the family to give away all their possessions and spend nearly five years living on Operation Mobilization's missionary ships sailing through Europe and Scandinavia.   Growing up among missionaries, handing out gospel tracts on the streets of New York and London, and being educated through field trips to historical sites gave Josh a uniquely global perspective — one that would later make it impossible for him to fit comfortably into American evangelical culture when the family returned to the States.  The conversation then shifts to Josh's long and painful journey out of the faith, a process that took over two decades despite his growing disillusionment. After spending 23 years in ministry — including a lengthy stint with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship staffing college campuses — Josh began asking "what if" questions after encountering colleagues who were devout Christians yet voted Democrat, and after leading students through rigorous inductive Bible study that he couldn't reconcile with what he heard in American churches.   He eventually left ministry, retrained as a therapist at age 41, and now uses narrative therapy to help others who have exited religious systems — guiding them to reframe their life stories, externalize their problems, and build new tools for living outside the guardrails of the belief systems that shaped them. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]

This conversation features Rob Thain Smith — author of Four and Twenty Blackbirds: The Trial of Paul Petry, the Beginning of the End of Mars Hill Church. We discuss the rise and fall of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, led by controversial pastor Mark Driscoll. Rob shares his first-hand experience as a long-time member who was in the process of becoming an elder when the church's governance crisis began. The central conflict we explore is the 2007 bylaw changes at Mars Hill that consolidated power away from a plurality of 24 elders and into Driscoll's hands. Rob recounts the controversial trial of elder Paul Petry, who was fired and put through a deeply flawed, unjust internal process for minor infractions — largely because he posed a threat to Driscoll's growing authority. Rob argues that the real failure of Mars Hill was not Driscoll alone, but the 24 elders who, despite knowing the trial was wrong, unanimously voted against Petry out of fear and self-interest. The conversation also covers the church's culture of shunning, Driscoll's continued platform at his Arizona church Trinity, and Rob's motivation for writing the book — to offer a more nuanced, leadership-focused account than the widely listened-to Christianity Today podcast series about Mars Hill. Follow this link for more information about Four and Twenty Blackbirds! Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]

This week's episode features a conversation with Paule Patterson — a former pastor turned Christian mystic and recovering alcoholic — to trace the arc of his remarkable personal journey.  Paule shares how his struggles with addiction, the collapse of his ministry in Missoula, Montana, and how multiple stints in rehab ultimately forced him to confront the deeper fractures in his faith, his identity, and his sense of self. Rather than walking away from spirituality entirely, Paule found that sobriety, AA, psychology, and a voracious study of both scripture and philosophy led him toward a richer, more honest relationship with the divine.  In the second half, our conversation broadens out into a wide-ranging discussion about the Western church's tendency to institutionalize and rigidify belief — from the Reformation to the present-day Christian nationalist movement in America.  We draw on such diverse elements as church history, René Girard's mimetic theory, Taoism, Buddhist mindfulness, and the work of Richard Rohr to argue that Christianity was always meant to be a living, transformative path rather than a doctrinal checklist.   Paule describes himself today as a Christian mystic, running a small business while quietly pursuing his passion project of helping others navigate deconstruction with intellectual honesty and spiritual openness.  Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community and help support the show! Email: [email protected]

In this episode, I speak with Beth Granger, author of Born and Razed: Surviving the Cult Was Only Half the Battle. Beth shares her extraordinary story of growing up as a staff kid inside Grenville Christian College in Brockville, Ontario — a boarding school secretly operating as a cult under the influence of the Community of Jesus, a commune based in Cape Cod. She describes the psychological control, public shaming sessions, draconian discipline, and spy networks that defined life inside the institution, drawing striking parallels between cult tactics and the dynamics of modern political movements. Our conversation also covers Beth's long journey toward healing after leaving at age 31, including her involvement in a landmark lawsuit that became the first historical abuse case to win at trial in Canada. She reflects on the layers of recovery that followed: therapy, writing her memoir, and the validating experience of having her story taken seriously in a court of law. The episode closes with a discussion of how the Community of Jesus continues to operate today--now aligned with Christian nationalist ideology--and why Beth wrote her book: to sound the alarm about the lasting, sometimes irreparable damage that weaponized, high-control religion can inflict. For more information on the book, check out Beth's site. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]

In this week's episode, I chat with Morgan Piercy, a Licensed Professional Counselor based in Kansas. She specializes in helping adults deconstruct from evangelicalism and Christian nationalism through a neurodiversity-affirming lens. Together we explore the clinical reality of Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) — why it goes far deeper than the commonly used term "church hurt" — and how patriarchal church structures, purity culture, and high-control theology can create lasting psychological harm. We also draw on our personal experiences with religious deconstruction, sharing candid reflections on growing up in fundamentalist and charismatic traditions, the fear-based theology of hell and the rapture, and the complex journey toward reclaiming identity outside the church. Morgan also discusses the therapeutic tools she uses with clients, including Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), to help people reconnect with their authentic values after leaving high-control religious environments. Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community! Email: [email protected]