The Mental Game of a Long VO Career

Anne Ganguzza and Tom Dheere share decades of combined experience in this insightful episode, dedicated to the long view of a voice acting career. Having been in the industry since the cassette and CD demo era, the hosts emphasize that longevity is achieved not through linear steps, but through resilience, strategic adaptation, and continuous self-improvement. The discussion provides a candid look at why the work never stops, the necessity of community, and the critical importance of mastering the mental game.   00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey bosses, Anne Ganguzza here. Are you ready to take the next step in your voiceover career? At Anne Ganguzza Productions, I specialize in target marketed coaching and demo production that gets you booked. If you're thinking about elevating your performance or creating an awesome demo, check me out at anneganguzza.com.  00:22 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:41 - Anne (Host) Hey, hey everyone. Welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Real Bosses series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with the one and only illustrious Mr Tom Dheere, real Boss.  00:54 - Tom (Host) Hi everybody, hi Anne hey.  00:56 - Anne (Host) Tom, how are?  00:57 - Tom (Host) you. I'm doing pretty good, if I'm not mistaken, haven't you, didn't you just have an anniversary?  01:03 - Anne (Host) I did Just celebrated 25 years with my hubby whoa. It seems like yesterday. I swear to god, 25 years just went so fast that's amazing and uh, and you, just, you just were telling me about your blogiversary how long have you been blogging? 17 years oh my god, tom that blogging, I mean I've been blogging for a you been blogging 17 years. Oh my God, tom, blogging, I mean I've been blogging for a while, but blogging for 17 years is insane.  01:31 - Tom (Host) Thank you.  01:31 - Anne (Host) Wow, you must have really good SEO. That's all I got to say.  01:35 - Tom (Host) I would like to yeah. Yeah, my SEO is pretty good.  01:37 - Anne (Host) Yeah, we would like to think that you have good SEO, but, wow, so long term relationships. You know it makes me think about voiceover, because I have been in voiceover just about as long Not quite as long as I've been married to my husband, but you know, 21 years, and it's. It's incredible. I feel like I just started, but yet I don't, because it is and we always talk about it being a marathon, not a sprint and I think you've been in voiceover longer than me.  02:03 - Tom (Host) Yes, I decided I wanted to be a voice actor in 1994.  02:09 - Anne (Host) Wow yeah. And then I got my commercial demo. Some people were born in 1994.  02:14 - Tom (Host) Not me, I know.  02:17 - Anne (Host) Yeah, some of my students haven't been born.  02:19 - Tom (Host) Some bosses listening to this are going to be like, I was born in 1994. I know, or 2004. And then I got my commercial demo in 1995 and I booked my first voiceover in 1996. And I went full time as a voice actor in 2005 and started coaching in 2011. So I've been-.  02:39 - Anne (Host) Oh, I started coaching just shortly before you. Yeah, yeah, just a little bit longer, because then we started coaching just shortly before you. Yeah, yeah, just a little bit longer, because then because we met shortly thereafter at Voice 2012.  02:49 - Tom (Host) Oh my goodness, we already knew each other, but I don't think we met.  02:52 - Anne (Host) Yeah, but I remember we.  02:54 - Tom (Host) I definitely remember we hung out at Voice 2012, which was 13 years ago. Oh my gosh.  02:59 - Anne (Host) Woo At Disneyland. You know so and it's funny because we talk about you know how long have you been in voiceover and how long did it take you to become successful in voiceover? Well, I always say you know, my overnight success took many, many years. So I think and I think it's something that a lot of people don't understand, especially those that are intrigued by this industry you know thinking that, oh yeah, it's, I can stay at home, I can do this. You know thinking that, oh yeah, it's, I can stay at home, I can do this. You know, I can buy the mic. It'll cost me a few hundred dollars and then I can just start booking jobs and making money.  03:32 And I think really for I know we talk about all the time, but I think I want to have a whole episode dedicated to the realities of having a long view career and the fact that it is something that you have to be in for the long run if you truly want to be successful at it. I mean, of course, you could be in it for a couple of years and then, if you don't like it, you get out. But most people I know want to make a good, they want to be successful at it, they want to make a good living. So let's talk about what it's like to be in voiceover for a long time and what it looks like, because it's certainly not like a corporate job. I am a corporate girl and came from corporate and then education, and I certainly was not handed a paycheck every other week in this full-time voiceover job. That's for sure, because it's a much different, much different industry. It's our own businesses.  04:22 - Tom (Host) I have the luxury of being able to zoom out and look at 30 years of being in the voiceover business, where when I started, you know, they just segued out of reel to reels and started using plastic cassette tapes. So I'm of the cassette tape generation of voice actors that started in the mid 90s and now we are. I was CDs, you were CDs, so you were, just I was CDs.  04:51 - Anne (Host) Yeah, shortly after the cassettes came the CDs.  04:53 - Tom (Host) Just as CDs came out and then, a few years after the CDs, came the MP3.  04:57 - Anne (Host) Yeah, and it was a thing, because I remember the burning of the CDs was like, oh God, who do I get to do that for me?  05:03 - Tom (Host) I did it myself.  05:04 - Anne (Host) Yeah, well, that was before. Right CD burners came out and now you know you can have a CD. I had a duplication company that I did all my cassettes through and then started doing the CDs.  05:14 - Tom (Host) There, you go and then I was like wait a minute.  05:20 - Anne (Host) I can print my own labels.  05:21 - Tom (Host) using Avery, I can burn my own CDs, stick it in the tray and my desktop.  05:25 - Anne (Host) I was one of those people. I got that. The stamp thing where you push it down, you stamp your label on the CD and that was like, oh my gosh.  05:33 - Tom (Host) Oh, now I feel old. Now we're getting really anachronistic and alienating ourselves.  05:37 - Anne (Host) That was like. That was like that. That was the coolest. That was the peas knees.  05:40 - Tom (Host) That was kind of fun.  05:42 - Anne (Host) I love that little stamper. That was awesome, it was.  05:46 - Tom (Host) But anyway, so, yeah, so looking back and zooming out and looking at what are the realities of what you need to have a long VO career, I mean it starts with training. It absolutely starts with training. I'm a theater-trained actor. I went to college and then I did a little graduate work at a place called the National Shakespeare Conservatory that used to be here in New York City. So I got like hardcore theater training about body and mind and spirit and voice and engaging. I had great voice coaches, I had ballet coach, chekhov coach, like all this stuff. That really gave me a very, very, very solid, solid foundation. Gave me a very, very, very solid, solid foundation. So if you want so the so step one. If you want longevity in the voiceover industry, if you want a long career, you got to start with very solid training performance training, voiceover training, genre training, so you can be demo ready.  06:38 - Anne (Host) I didn't realize you you had been a theater trained. Yes, I did. How did I not know that about you, Tom? And I know I've known you for a long time it doesn't come.  06:45 - Tom (Host) I mean, it was so long ago, Wow.  06:47 - Anne (Host) Do you miss it? Do you still do it or do you miss it?  06:50 - Tom (Host) No, I haven't been on a stage in almost 25 years. When I discovered voiceover after I dropped out of the conservatory for reasons we will not get into as soon as I discovered voiceover I was like, oh, that's where I need to be and that's where, also, I can take all of that training that I did on stage and I had a little bit of on camera. I had a little bit of TV and a little bit of film experience very, very little bit like extra work on 30 Rock and things like that.  07:25 You know that's that sort of that. You know if you blink you'll miss me, that sort of thing. But that turned into that inhabited me. As I'll put it to you this way, that sort of training, theater training, it's like pro wrestling, like it's large gestures, projecting, you know, into an audience and then voiceovers is is boxing. It's very, it's very intimate and it's very, it's very, very close.  07:51 Um, so that all that great theater training, I had to obviously learn to make adjustments and turn from this very open, broad presentation, presentational type of acting to this very intimate, one-on-one, you know, doing this, this kind of acting. And I use that training, consciously or unconsciously, every every day, 30 years later, but, like I, I definitely attribute a big, I credit a large part of my longevity as a voice actor to the performance training that I got and I had a great voiceover coach uh, who's no longer, who's with us Um, she really set me on the path to understanding the difference between theater acting and film acting and voice, voice acting, and you know it gave me all kinds of exercises and stuff and you know I recorded. I still have the cassette demo to this day. Um, but that training I still have it. Uh, I whip it out once in a while on a, on a, on a at a conference or something.  08:48 I'll be like check it out once in a while at a conference or something. I'll be like check it out and people are like, oh my god, is that a what's? And then the Gen Z's are like what's a J card? What look?  08:55 - Anne (Host) it up if you don't know what it is in those 30 years, though, would you say that there's been like, okay, so I do this, and then I get to this level, and then this is what I do. Next, is it like a to this level, and then this is what I do next?  09:07 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Is it like a? You know, one of the?  09:08 - Anne (Host) steps to attaining and achieving that voiceover career.  09:14 - Tom (Host) That's a great question. First off, there are no levels, there are no steps. It never gets any easier, it just turns into different types of hard.  09:22 - Anne (Host) Ah, that we can just go home now, because that I think that sums it up in a nutshell, because it is so not a linear climb. It is not, but it's something that I think that you know over time. That's why I think you have to be in it for a long time, right, so you can adjust, you can evolve, you can work with it and understand it and somewhat predict it. I don't know.  09:45 - Tom (Host) Not predictable. Oh, I wish I could predict it.  09:48 - Anne (Host) But maybe a little bit. You can make it more predictable in certain ways, right? Yes, you can. Yeah.  09:53 - Tom (Host) Yeah, Absolutely Understanding how the industry ebbs and flows understanding trends, keeping up with performance trends, keeping up with technology trends. That's a big part of the realities of a long VO career, but but yeah, let yeah. I definitely want to drive home the point that there is no linear like do this, do this, do this successful? That's not. That's not how it works. You got to get your training, you got to get a website, you got to get demos produced, you got to set up a home recording studio. Those are your pillars.  10:35 - Anne (Host) And even the intricacies of that. Changes. I think you have to have, I think what's pillars, and even the intricacies of that. Changes have a down or a lull in your business and you question everything you've ever like. You know what got you into it in the first place. You're like, oh my gosh, I don't belong here, should I? I mean, there's so many things that happen during a lull in your business because it makes you question am I good enough? Am I valid, am I to be a success in this industry? Should I just quit? Should I give it up? Should I not have quit my job? And so there's so many things that get in the way of evolving and growing in your career.  11:17 And again, this is not a linear growth. It's ups, it's downs, and sometimes you can be like, oh, I just booked that gig, and then things are amazing for a while. But then you're like, okay. Sometimes you can be like, oh, I just booked that gig, and then things are amazing for a while, but then you're like, ok, so I should be able to book the other gig, I should be able to book a gig a week now. And then you say, ok, my goal is to book 10 jobs every week. Did you ever try that? Because I tried that a long time ago. Oh, I'm going to book.  11:44 - Tom (Host) My goal is to book 10 jobs a week. I had a very specific thing to that end, which is, I thought for a very long time I needed three very specific sources of voiceover income to be successful and consistent and sustainable on an income level. One was with a regular client that I was making well over $10,000 a year with for a number of years. One was Voice123 as a source of online casting, a source of auditions and bookings, and then I was just that elusive third source and I was saying that for years and years and years and my career has evolved and gone up and down and all around that I don't think that way anymore, because what's interesting is that client that was paying me well over $10,000 for many, many years, who I still work with to this day. I've worked with them since 1997. I now book one or two clients, one or two gigs a year with them, because their business model changed and the industry of their genre changed, so therefore my relationship with them changed.  12:51 I'm still on Voice123 making great money, and there's so many factors too.  12:57 - Anne (Host) So many factors to that and I love that because it's not just about you and your skill set and your skill level. The industry changes because our clients change. Their industries change right, their jobs change. Our relationships change with the people that some people come and go from jobs, and especially when you're talking about the repeat client or clients that you've had for years, which are great, they're wonderful, they're one of the more predictable things in this industry that you can count on, but then again, you know, don't count on them all together because tomorrow they could be gone.  13:33 - Tom (Host) Right, and as you were talking, I just had a revelation.  13:37 - Anne (Host) Ah Okay. Will you disclose the revelation, Tom? Oh, no, I'm going to share.  13:42 - Tom (Host) No, I'm going to leave and run away and write a book.  13:44 - Anne (Host) No, let's go. I must go now. No revolution share.  13:47 - Tom (Host) No, I'm going to leave and run away and write a book. No, let's go, I must go now. No revolution, no, no, no, no, no. So this is one thing I've realized In the past 25 years or so of me being a voice actor roughly 50% of my voiceover income has come through e-learning, explainer, corporate, industrial, medical. That's been roughly 50% of my income this whole time, almost since the beginning.  14:10 - Anne (Host) So that's been stable.  14:11 - Tom (Host) Yes, but what hasn't been stable is the other 50%. We're talking purely on a genre level. On a genre basis On a genre level, well yay corporate explainer e-learning. Right.  14:26 - Anne (Host) All my stuff too, no-transcript.  14:50 - Tom (Host) Yeah, it's interesting because now that I'm kind of thinking through the evolution of what the other 50% has been and the other 50% hasn't been all one other genre but it's been a combination of other genres but I would say, for the first third of that years, a big part of that years, that other third was that part a big part of that other 50 was commercial. But then around from 2011, basically for like roughly 2011, and for another 10 years it turned into audiobooks, that which a big, the lion's share of that other 50 was audiobook narration, and now what a big chunk of it is is political. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so things change.  15:31 - Anne (Host) Mine is more. Yeah, I'm going to say mine is more heavier on the e-learning, just because it's what I enjoy doing E-learning, corporate explainer, all of that side. 30% commercial, but again that's the one that is super volatile, the commercial genre aspect of it. And audiobooks. I did one and I said uh-uh and I was no longer going to pursue that, and then I had other areas of my business that I found to be interesting, which obviously VO Boss was one of those. Vo Peeps was another thing and those were alternate sources of income.  16:03 But when you talk about just voiceover, the real steady part has been the size of the market in the non-broadcast long format narration genres, and I always tell people like it's just a huge market that is always needing voiceover.  16:21 And for me that's just kind of where I live, because I love it number one and I find it to be challenging intellectually and also creatively, and so that's where I choose to spend my time, pursuing income and pursuing jobs in those genres. In terms of ups and downs, yes, but there's ups and downs in those genres as well because, again, you're still trying to find the client, you're trying to, you're trying to be able to, to get the client's attention. Yes, right, I mean there's, there's. It can be a huge market, but if they don't know, you're out there, right. And then part of that is the let's try to get their attention to say, hey, I'm out here, you can hire me for that voiceover, let me audition for you, I'm available, you know I'm reliable and that sort of thing. So that's, that's got to be like a big portion of the consistency, like resilient. Being resilient and consistent I think is so important in having a long term career in this industry, resiliency and consistency.  17:26 So at the beginning- Resilient, resilient, resilient, right here on my arm.  17:29 - Tom (Host) Oh, look at that.  17:29 - Anne (Host) Resilience. Yes, resilience is on my arm, so-.  17:32 - Tom (Host) Oh, that's, I didn't know. I never noticed that.  17:34 - Anne (Host) That's crazy yeah it is definitely a plus.  17:38 - Tom (Host) So as a just a very brief recap, and then keep going, the realities of long VO career. We said training at the beginning and then I talked about genre stability working in stable genres, and then when you're talking about consistency and resilience. But you touched upon something which is also the next part of it is adapting to the realities of marketing strategies, because marketing strategies, the realities of marketing strategies.  18:06 Yeah, oh my gosh. Yes, Because marketing strategies, the effectiveness of marketing strategies, changes through the years. What worked five years ago doesn't necessarily work anymore, and what didn't work or didn't exist five years ago as a marketing strategy may be a critical part of your marketing strategies and tactics.  18:24 - Anne (Host) And see well, performance too has evolved over the years, Not quite as drastic as marketing strategies and tactics. And see well, performance too has evolved over the years, Not quite as drastic as marketing.  18:31 - Tom (Host) Performance demands evolve, Genres rise and fall and grow and ebb and flow and marketing strategies. All of this stuff evolves and changes and some stuff becomes obsolete and some stuff becomes like if you're not doing it now, you may not have a career, and then five years from now, it's going to, it's going to change on you.  18:50 - Anne (Host) And when I think about like longevity right, I think about a lot of people will be like burnout, you know, is there burnout or is there just, you know, fatigue in the actual work that's involved in running a business? I think there's think there's two different things, right. I personally feel I mean, unless you've been in it for a while and you're really like I'm gonna give this a go, right, and I'm gonna audition a hundred times a day, then you experience fatigue or burnout. I can see that for sure, because I think there's more ways to really move forward than just the auditioning on a daily basis. There's so many other things you can do in terms of marketing and business, right.  19:28 But I feel like just being consistent and being out there, because a lot of times I talk about when do clients buy? We are at the mercy of the clients needing our services. Really, we are at the mercy of the clients buying or needing our services number one, and then purchasing our services, and so, unless that need exists, right, it's hard. It's like we have to just be patient and we have to be resilient and we have to be consistent in our marketing and we also have to make sure that we're consistent in our skill set right and that we are not falling into something that we're educating ourselves along skill set right and that we are not falling into something that we're educating ourselves along the way, so that if somebody is asking for a conversational read, when the script is not written conversationally but yet we're still reading it, you know, in a way that sounds like this is what they want to hear, versus you acting, you know, and that's easy to fall into.  20:22 It's very easy to fall into that. I deal with that all the time because I teach long format narration, because you can keep somebody's attention for a sentence. But talk about keeping somebody's attention for, you know, five minutes or 10 minutes or an hour right, how are you doing that effectively, especially in today's world where you know I can barely like, I can't sit through a sitcom without scroll. You know, scrolling on barely like.  20:43 - Tom (Host) I can't sit through a sitcom without scrolling on my phone. Yeah Right, no, it's definitely a challenge and that's why continuing education with great coaches like Anne not to blatantly plug too much, Because Anne who is also a narrator, who is booking work regularly, who is reading casting notices and auditioning for stuff regularly work regularly? Who is reading casting notices and auditioning for stuff regularly? Who's?  21:05 I'm assuming you're having conversations in some capacity with your representation, you know and making cold calls and emails, and doing blog posts and social media and shooting videos. Yeah, there's so much to it, right?  21:15 - Anne (Host) There's so much more than just the audition and and I did want to just want to finish my thought on like I was talking about like, is it fatigue because you're doing 100 auditions a day, or is it burnout?  21:26 I'll be quite honest with you, I don't think the majority of people that get into this industry know how much work it takes To be quite honest, know how much work it takes to actually be successful and to do this for long term. And the people that have stuck it out, they get it, I mean, and that just becomes part of their part of their strategy, part of their resilience. And, honestly, I think a lot of people they don't give it enough of a chance and they quit before they've put in the actual work. So I don't think there's burnout, to be honest, unless you're talking about people who've been at it for 20 years, right, and they're just burnt out. But in the beginning I don't think you find people with burnout because I don't think they realize just how much work it takes and I say that one more time, tom they do not realize how much work it takes and even today for me, right, and you, it takes a lot of work.  22:17 - Tom (Host) Yeah, I mean I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. A couple years ago someone booked a free 15 minute consult with me and I'm like sure what's going on. They're like I've booked, I've done all these auditions and I just can't seem to book anything. And I'm like well, how many have you done? 40?  22:33 - Anne (Host) Yes, exactly.  22:37 - Tom (Host) And I'm such a jerk I went oh, I'm so sorry, just like I did and I apologize profusely. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I really don't mean to laugh, but you need to put two zeros on the end of that before you can really. Exactly, he was very he's like okay, thanks for your time, and he pretty much hung up on me. He was very upset and I feel bad to this day. I hope he's a successful voice actor right now. I felt really bad about that.  23:06 - Anne (Host) It's funny because people, yeah, I will say that it's kind of like the old thing, like when you invite 100 people to a party, how many people show up? Right, there's a small small percentage. Right? If you do auditions, how many? If you book how many percent of those auditions? Right, and Tom, that's something you can go back to your spreadsheet. I don't have a spreadsheet.  23:25 - Tom (Host) I did have a spreadsheet before.  23:26 - Anne (Host) I know you've got the numbers and so you could say it's a lower percentage than people think they think oh, I auditioned for 100. I should be able to book 50.  23:34 - Tom (Host) No, take a zero off of that.  23:35 - Anne (Host) Yeah, exactly Exactly, it is in the 1% to 2% to 3%.  23:40 - Tom (Host) If you're booking 5% of your auditions, you're doing amazing.  23:43 - Anne (Host) Oh, that's amazing. And that's even if you've been in the industry for 20 years. Yeah, exactly.  23:48 - Tom (Host) And also that percentage will go up and down based on whether the auditions are coming through your representation, which there may be a lot less people auditioning for it, or if it's coming through an online casting site, especially if it's like a free online casting site, like if you're on Casting Call Club or something where literally thousands of people are auditioning, you know or if it's through your self-marketing strategies, where you're one of a handful of people with of your demographic on some production company's roster and you're one of three or four people that are auditioning. So the percentages will go up and down. But if you average the whole thing out, yeah, if you're doing 5%, you're doing really, really well.  24:23 - Anne (Host) Yeah, and I'm going to say, I'm going to say a big part of that again, it runs into this whole mindset. That I think is a huge part of success in long-term success is mindset Because, again in the beginning, when you're like, oh my gosh, i've've auditioned 40 times and I didn't get anything, or I auditioned 100 times, you know what I mean? I got a short list and so that whole thing in the very beginning of my career myself, right was hard. I had to fight through it. I had to fight, I had to make sure that I was like no, no, no, no. I am confident in my skills, I'm confident that I can do this, and I think that your mental mindset has a lot to do with your success and in sticking it out right Again and pushing through the lean times, pushing through the times where even you know I did a great audition, I could have been the perfect voice, yet I still did not get the job, understanding that people cast for many different reasons. It's not all to do with your skill or performance.  25:28 - Tom (Host) I agree. I need to make one more very important point, which is the reason why I'm able to still be in the voiceover industry, because there was a time when my income was fluctuating wildly and then kind of downshifted. This is one thing. That this is, bosses. If there's one thing I want you to take away from this conversation, it's this. It's that decision makers they make decisions in certain ways over who they're going to cast, why they're going to cast them and how they're going to cast them. That changes over time. So in the 90s there were no online casting sites. It was agents. So either you had an agent or you didn't. And self-marketing I was making in the 90s I was making 50 cold calls a day. A lot of people didn't really even have email.  26:22 Nobody knew what that was, so the decision makers in the 90s right were agents and managers which I didn't get representation for a very long time.  26:30 - Anne (Host) I didn't get my first quality, consistent rep until 2005. Yep, yep. I think it was 2006. Before that, it was 2006.  26:37 - Tom (Host) Okay, and then you know, and then it evolved into email, so I'll put it. So it's like this You're a voice seeker, you're a decision maker and you're looking in this direction and saying this is how I decide, this is how I cast voice actors. They've got these horse blinders on. This is the point where they're facing. You need to be right there in their view, being like how you doing With your demos in their hand, with the marketing and whatever, but there's going to come a point and this happens for almost all of them that at some point they're going to be like nope, this is how I make voiceover decisions now.  27:10 This is how I cast Often, and in the early 2000s to this day it's shifted where now they're looking at online casting sites. So if the view of the decision makers goes from here and it moves in the spot, let's say it's a spotlight. If that spotlight goes over here and you're not in that spotlight, they're not booking you. You need to go from there to there to be like how you doing? Because now the spotlight's shining on you, because this is where they're making decisions on how to cast, and then it'll shift again. And it'll shift again. Agents, managers, casting directors, free casting sites, pay-to-play casting sites, self-marketing strategies indirect and indirect and AI.  27:53 - Anne (Host) And I always think, like we are so isolated in our booths, right, and we're auditioning, we're like, but I've got the skillset, but I'm not getting the work right, or whatever mindset tricks you're playing on yourself. You still cannot forget that our profession is guided by the clients who hire us. Right, they're decision makers, Like, what is like, where are they hiring? How are they hiring, is it? You know? They're busy people, we're busy people.  28:21 I mean I would say that life, the pacing of this life, just gets quicker and quicker and quicker, and so some of them still rely on talent agents or their agents or casting directors to help them make decisions. Some of them are like I just need to Google at the prompt and find someone. And it really depends on who is hiring us, really depends on who is hiring us. And don't forget to educate yourself and practice resilience and strategies to get to those people and understand why they hire us, why they may not hire us and how you can get in front of them. And I love that example of the spotlight, tom, because that just makes a whole lot of sense. You've got to be in their field of vision in order for that to happen, and there can be many reasons as to why you're not, but understanding and educating yourself and evolving along with the industry and being knowledgeable in more ways than just performance. There's a lot to be said for that.  29:13 Yeah, because you know what Cold calls worked, and then they don't work, and then emails work, and then they don't work, and then newsletters work, and then they don't work. And then emails come back a little bit, and then they work again. And then postcards work, and then newsletters work, and then they don't work back a little bit, and then they work again, and then postcards work, and then they don't work.  29:24 - Tom (Host) Yeah, exactly texting works, and then social media works, and then it doesn't work and then they go to a different social media platform that you were on exactly now.  29:31 - Anne (Host) They're tired of you know, like ai, they try ai and then they.  29:35 - Tom (Host) Then they get off of ai and you know it's, it never stops, which is why you make sure that and this is a big word and make sure that legacy thinking does not stagnate your voiceover career. Legacy thinking destroys careers.  29:50 - Anne (Host) Absolutely, absolutely. You have to have a broader and you have to have a broader sense of the business of voiceover to really understand and have longevity. Now there's very few people who maybe started off in the beginning. They're super talented, they're in a big market, they've got a manager right or an agent that is going to bat for them, and so you know that's a different story, but I would say that's maybe less than 1% of the total voiceover population where that's happening.  30:20 Other than that, you have to be, have your eye on the ball, you have to have your eye, you have to be in that spotlight, as Tom says, that moving, rotating spotlight. You have to be educated about that spotlight and I'm going to say that good, I'm going to say trusted people in the industry that you are have a relationship with good coaches, good agents, good managers, and your community is so important to help you to be successful. It is an isolating job, right, this is such an isolated. We're in our booths, we're by ourselves, and I know that it was a big adjustment for me when I went full time into voiceover versus, you know, having my corporate job where I went to the office every day. I had kind of a social interaction with my colleagues and my you know my teammates. And now, all of a sudden, I'm by myself and I have myself and my thoughts Scary. And my thoughts can be scary sometimes, especially when I'm doubting right, why am I not booking Right? Why?  31:18 And those thoughts can be destructive in a successful voiceover career. So the mental part of it, the resilience, the strategizing, is, I think, almost well. You can't really have a career without having good performance skills and good business skills. But also, if your mental health is not there and your community is not there to support you, your loved ones aren't there to support you, your loved ones aren't there to support you and encourage you, it's going to be really hard because it's an isolating industry and you know, thank goodness for the conferences, right, and the little get-togethers that we can have. I mean, we're just, we're like hungry people when we go to conferences. We're all like you know, we can't get enough of each other right. Seeing each other after all this time and really that community is, I think, a big part of what can help you to be successful in a long-term voiceover career.  32:11 - Tom (Host) I think you're right, anne. I think that's one of the most important ingredients to a successful long-term career is to be a part of the community for education, for inspiration, for commiseration and for renewal of purpose.  32:23 - Anne (Host) Exactly, yeah. So, bosses, we are part of a community, so I encourage you to be a part of a community. Be a part of Tom's community and really we will get through this and 20 years from now, we will still be God willing, if the technology doesn't, God willing if the creek don't rise, as the old people say.  32:44 God willing, we will still be here. We'll still be here doing voiceover and the stuff that we love, or, even if it's not voiceover, it's something that we love and that we still have our community. And so, what a great conversation, guys. Keep going. A marathon, not a sprint. Keep going. We've got faith in you and we've got a community here that can support you. Tom and I are here, so, bosses, reach out if you need, and we've got you All right. Big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and network like bosses real bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Have an amazing week, bosses, and we'll see you next week.  33:21 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry-revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast-to-coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

Anne Ganguzza sits down with Billy Collura, a powerhouse agent with over 30 years at CESD New York. Billy shares his unique perspective on the dramatic evolution of the voice acting industry, from the early days of union-only radio spots to the current market dominated by non-union and digital opportunities. This conversation provides essential insight into the biggest voice acting trends that have shaped the industry and reveals the simple, authentic quality that makes a voice actor successful today. 00:03 - Anne (Host) Hey guys, it's Anne from VO Boss here.  00:06 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) And it's George the Tech. We're excited to tell you about the VO Boss. Vip membership, now with even more benefits.  00:12 - Anne (Host) So not only do you get access to exclusive workshops and industry insights, but with our VIP plus tech tier, you'll enjoy specialized tech support from none other than George himself.  00:23 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) You got it. I'll help you tackle all those tricky tech issues so you can focus on what you do best Voice acting. It's tech support tailored for voiceover professionals like you.  00:34 - Anne (Host) Join us guys at VO Boss and let's make your voiceover career soar. Visit vobosscom slash VIP-membership to sign up today.  00:43 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) Slash VIP-membership to sign up today. It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  01:08 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss Podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am thrilled to welcome someone who truly defines what it means to be a powerhouse in the voiceover industry. With more than 30 years at CESD New York, Billy Collura has been at the forefront of commercials and beyond, representing talent with a direct and grounded approach that has earned him the trust of clients and voice actors alike. I think it's fair to say that he doesn't just follow the changes in the business. He really helps to shape them. So, Billy, I am so excited to have you here on the podcast.  01:44 - Billy (Host) Thank you for asking me. Yeah, this is so nice, yeah.  01:47 - Anne (Host) Yeah, I love it, and of course we're like on opposite coasts here, so you're on my home coast and so I do miss New York quite a bit and we did have a little.  01:58 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) How often do you get out here, pardon me, do you get out here often?  02:00 - Billy (Host) Do you ever get out. You know what?  02:01 - Anne (Host) Not as often as I should. I really have now started to say I'm only coming out during the warm season because I'm done with the snow. Yeah, I hear you. But I would imagine like do you travel like elsewhere in the wintertime in New York, Because I know I stay here.  02:22 - Billy (Host) I travel a lot in general um during the course of the year, but um you know, I right now I'm upstate in well. I'm up in the Hudson Valley and in the city of Hudson, which is two hours North of Manhattan, so I go back and forth Um in the winter time. No, I'm usually, I don't know, I'm usually in the Northeast sometimes.  02:43 - Anne (Host) Okay, Are you a skier? Are you a skier? No, absolutely not, Absolutely not. That was, that was what a lot. What kept a lot of people on the East coast? Um, in my area anyways, they're like oh no, I have to be able to ski in the winter.  02:56 - Billy (Host) No, I don't like the cold.  02:57 - Anne (Host) Well, I have a. I have a mountaineer in California, Uh huh.  03:00 - Billy (Host) Uh-huh.  03:02 - Anne (Host) Oh my gosh. Well, anyways, it's so nice to see you again. It's been a while. I saw you at VO Atlanta and I'm just really thrilled that I have the opportunity to talk to you. I know how busy you are, but I'm just so excited that the bosses are going to get this opportunity to really benefit from your wisdom. And so, benefiting from the wisdom speaking of that, you've been at CESD for over three decades. Um, that's, that's amazing. So how would you say that your role as an agent has evolved during that time?  03:37 - Billy (Host) Well, you know like it started when I started. Um, it'll be. Um, it'll be 32 years in May. Oh my gosh, when I started, voiceover was a smaller industry and I dabbled in a little bit of everything, okay.  03:55 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) I did commercials.  03:57 - Billy (Host) There really wasn't. There was no internet back then. So we did radio and TV commercials and industrials and I'm not even sure cable was around when.  04:08 - Anne (Host) I started. I hear you. You know we didn't have computers, any of that.  04:13 - Billy (Host) So we did a little bit of everything. And then, you know, and promos, promos were a thing, and narration and trailers, and so, you know, we did a little bit of all of that. And then, as the industry kept getting bigger and bigger, we started specializing. And all of a sudden, in animation, I dabbled in gaming, but I also, you know, but pretty much my focus was commercials, because that's where the money is, you know, and that was the day where it was just, you know, it was just TV and radio, and you made the actors made a lot of money. Yeah, it was only union, we only worked on union jobs. And now fast forward to now, where 60% to 70% of my desk is non-union. We started doing non-union in 2019. Okay, the union opportunities have pretty much dried up, and I say that, but it's ebb and flow.  05:22 I mean right now this year it was a slow summer for some reason. It was like the old days, it was really slow and I mean that union and non-union. And then I go away on vacation and it just like exploded while I was away and I've been and since then I've been playing catch up and it's been so busy with union, lots of union stuff with non union. Yeah, so it's been great there.  05:49 Yeah. So I mean that's changed and I guess for me what's changed for me is because now I specialize much more on commercials. I do have a few non-union accounts, but I have my large union study accounts, steady accounts. Um, so most of my work, uh is you know, is in the commercial world. I also happen to handle the audio books, but I always say I'm not an audio book agent. I'm the agent at CESD that handles the audio books.  06:18 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) So it's a little difference.  06:20 - Billy (Host) Um so, but the audio book, what I do love about it. You know an an an agent who left um cause she was having. She got married and had babies and she said, take the audio books. They're the nicest people in the world. And I got to say they really are, and so I've kept it.  06:36 I love it. The people are so nice. Um, I really, really enjoy it. So that you know, so I I've been doing that. I also do ADR and loop group stuff, again very specialized, and there really aren't a lot of industrials. Now I know some of the other. I'm one of five, six agents in the department and then there's another two agents that work with agencies that cater to medical industrials.  07:04 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) So they're doing I don't do personally.  07:05 - Billy (Host) I don't do a lot of industrials. I think a lot of the industrials have gone to the pay-to-play sites, so but the union stuff, the medical ones, they are still at the big agencies. I just personally don't happen to have those. I would say maybe the commercial aspect of right Healthcare like pharmaceuticals and that sort of thing is huge and more and more of those blue chip companies are going non-union and those rates are you know.  07:34 - Anne (Host) Sure. What do you attribute that? Why is that happening? What do?  07:39 - Billy (Host) you attribute it to is when it started, when digital work started happening, and these great companies, the Droga5s and there was so many, that's just the first one they were doing great work with the digital work. You know, they were just with stuff before even streaming, when they were just doing they were making commercials for digital work and they were doing fine work. They were doing really good work and these companies, these blue chip companies, were saying, hey, you did that for this much money, why don't you just take all of our network stuff? And that's how I remember, like 10, 12 years ago, a large fast food chain started going, you know, went totally non-union. And then the large fast food chain started going, went totally non-union.  08:25 Then there would be some that because they had a celebrity voice on certain spots, and then they would get a third party and more and more I feel like these agencies, these digital agencies, just kept getting better and better at it and the actors were getting better and better at it. And it's not like the cable stations that you see up here that you know these infomercial things that you know that you can tell it's non-union. You know I've fallen and I can't get up kind of stuff. These. They're doing great work.  08:56 - Anne (Host) I can't tell, are they doing great work because they have great actors or are they doing great work because the entire production value of it?  09:05 - Billy (Host) Yes.  09:06 - Anne (Host) Yes, yes, you know, people are getting better at it.  09:09 - Billy (Host) The voiceover people certainly, and it's not even I mean the voiceover so many people. Covid just changed the game and everybody you know voiceover was the one business in town that didn't shut down during.  09:23 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) COVID.  09:24 - Anne (Host) And every I always say every jaboni with a mic, you know, just set up a studio at home and said I'm going to do voiceover, and not only you know they were well-established Broadway and TV and film you know everybody was doing it and that's and that's so interesting because I would say the majority of people that you know cause I was I was super busy coaching during COVID and I just had so many people that just wanted to like make the demos and get into the industry. But I had a lot more of the talent that were more beginner right to intermediate. But I would imagine that with COVID, with celebrities right them wanting to get into voiceover because what else was there? Because they weren't able to go into a studio, and so I would say that a good portion of that, I would say a good portion of people that were getting those jobs, were probably the celebrities right.  10:27 - Billy (Host) Absolutely coaching. You know they just kept getting better and better at it. And you know, and, and we're willing to work for low wages, I mean that's the other thing. And you know we always say somebody takes a job for $100. You know it's just a race to the bottom. Yeah, you know, if you're gonna add, because you know we don't work on the non union stuff, we don't work on the non-union stuff, we don't work on certain things. I won't work on stuff just because it's not worth my time.  10:48 - Anne (Host) Sure.  10:49 - Billy (Host) And I don't mean to be like, oh, but $250 is a lot to some people. Oh yeah, for all the work that I have to go into it, for me to do it and have my assistant do it and doing the editing to maybe get it, it's just not worth it. But I do. I mean that's usually. My threshold is 250.  11:10 - Anne (Host) And I understand that because I always tell people, because I do a lot of non-broadcast narration, coaching and demos, and I'm always telling people they're like, well, I want an agent. I'm like, well, an agent doesn't get excited about non-broadcast stuff because it's a one and done thing. You don't make your money on that, and so typically you want to have a tip top commercial demo because that's where they're going to be making their money with the residuals and and that sort of a thing. So would you do? You think it has to do with the sheer volume of people that got into voiceover as well. If you've got enough, you know, if you throw spaghetti against the wall right there, some of them will stick. And so then I started to drive down. I'm going to say it started to drive down maybe the prices, uh, or people willing to do the work for less, because it just got to be competitive.  11:56 - Billy (Host) It did.  11:57 There's so many people doing it now, so many people, and especially in the non-union world, there's so many opportunities out there and you know, with the pay to plays and I've kind of changed my tune a little on the pay to plays and I kind of see they're there for a reason. They're a great, you know, tool for learning, for getting the experience, for the auditioning. And I and I learned recently when I was at a conference in Holland and met the CEO from Voices 123. And I learned that they love to put people together and to put the actor and the company together. Take it off the platform and do your thing.  12:41 They don't want to micromanage, like there are other pay-to-plays that micromanage everything.  12:45 But I really found that you know, oh, that's really nice, and then people can make money that way. They're not interested, they're just interested in making the match. So, but, that being said, there are so many people that are doing this now and, yeah, driving down the prices because you know, they may be this may not be their full-time gig, it just may be a side hustle for them. So, yeah, sure, an extra $200, an extra $100, an extra $350. That can accumulate. But unfortunately then they're like well, you did it last time for $100. Why can't you? So it's hard, it's hard.  13:21 - Anne (Host) It is, but would you say that the amount of jobs is diminishing or no, it's just as volume you know, I don't see volume as normal.  13:33 - Billy (Host) I'm busy, you know, but I don't know, like, like I said, this summer was slow with the opportunities, with the, with the auditions. I find that my casting directors, my union casting, just my casting directors in general, um, they, you know, I have some that are busier than others, some I will hear from, you know, once every other month, and then some I will hear from three or four times a week. You know, um, so it's and it's all you know. There's no logic to it.  14:03 - Anne (Host) And then on the um isn't that the truth. Yeah, and then um after all these years, wouldn't you think like you could? You could predict, you know.  14:14 - Billy (Host) I would say to actors you know, I'm not booking, it's just one phone call, it's one job, don't forget. They're only picking one person, but yeah, yeah, picking one person. You, yeah, you know, only picking one person you know and you don't know.  14:25 - Anne (Host) That's a way to put it in perspective. Actually, if you think about it, but in 400,.  14:30 - Billy (Host) You know how many people are auditioning.  14:31 That's why with select VO. You know that only allows you X amount of people to submit. So if they, if the agency says, if they invite you and they say you can only submit three people per role, they won't let you submit a fourth person. So you really have to be smart and we're not the type of agency that will send you know to ten people and then, sophie's Choice, the three that I want. You know, I don't believe in that. I don't. I feel it's a waste of time of the actor. It's certainly a waste of time for my assistant and for me to have to listen to, then you have to listen to them Exactly.  15:10 - Anne (Host) What's the point, you know, and so that translates to me to a good relationship with everybody that's on your roster, absolutely, that that knowledge of their capabilities and you can communicate, uh, back and forth to make sure that the two of you are are, you know, keeping up with one another, and you would be the one that say, okay, I'm going to handpick this audition and send this to this many people, because you're the one that has to do the work right To send it the top three, to the. So the client.  15:43 - Billy (Host) Yeah, absolutely so. It's my reputation and there are some casting directors that you know they will.  15:48 I will submit a list and they will pick who they want to hear you know, back up, if I lose, or if we lose somebody, who else would you like? Or, you know, sometimes they'll say these are the three I want to hear. Send me one of your choice that maybe I, somebody, I don't know, um, and then there are certain casting directors that will micromanage and they have to. They, you know they will only see these people and they're, you know, not flexible. But it just kind of makes me a better agent.  16:14 - Anne (Host) That's why we're.  16:15 - Billy (Host) Cesd is an exclusive agency. We don't oversign in the union or non-union world. We're still building up our non-union roster. You know we're still doing that, but that's where we have the most amount of opportunities. You know, in the non-union world, Sure, Plain and simple.  16:34 - Anne (Host) Absolutely, absolutely. So what would you say after all these years? What's kept you loving your job?  16:42 - Billy (Host) Because it's different every day. You know, that's the— that's the thing. I never know what's ahead of me. So I, you know, I just love. Every day there's some, there's a new challenge, there's something new. Also, recently I have a new assistant who I adore and I love teaching him. He's a little sponge and he wants to learn.  17:09 And so that kind of inspires me to want to teach him, and you know so that that is. I guess that's the difference, and also being able to, because the business has changed. Remotely, you know, I can start earlier, I'm not in the office, I I can work later, you know. It just kind of like the whole. It's such I don't want to say a relaxed, but I feel I feel more relaxed Now. It could be because I've been doing this for a hundred years, but I just feel relaxed, I enjoy what I do. I don't feel the pressure. I don't feel like there's no such thing as a voiceover emergency If somebody screws up or, you know, if I've given you know there's no such thing.  17:51 - Anne (Host) Bravo to that. I always say there's never a VO emergency.  17:54 - Billy (Host) No, there's never a first you know, if something went wrong, don't freak out. How?  17:59 - Anne (Host) do we fix it? How do we?  18:00 - Billy (Host) fix it, that's all you know.  18:02 - Anne (Host) Now, that's from your perspective. What about your client, your casting director? Your client's perspective? Are there VO emergencies? Yeah, there could be, that's on them, not on me. Yeah, okay, I love that.  18:13 - Billy (Host) I don't, you know, I wanna help fix the problem, you know, sure so. And I mean, yeah, you know, it's always something. Fortunately I haven't had any of those emergencies in a while. But you know, the other night I was it was nine o'clock my time and an LA. It was an LA agency booking a client. She happened to be on the West coast, so it worked out okay, but it was nine 30. And I was like you know, I'm old, I can't stay up. And then I thought, and I got a text from the casting director she goes we want to book so-and-so. I left all the information on the email. So I was like, oh well, I have to finish Gilded Age, this episode, and then, as soon as I'm done, I will get on my computer.  18:56 - Anne (Host) I love it, that's great?  18:59 - Billy (Host) I guess yeah. So that's what keeps me going. The relationship with my clients, I don't. It's different because back in the day, actors used to come into the office to audition. West Coast was different because you guys were MP3ing long before, because you all wouldn't get in a car and drive a half hour to the studio.  19:20 - Anne (Host) But in New York, well, because of the traffic.  19:24 - Billy (Host) Yeah, yeah, and that's why you couldn't get to three auditions back in the day, but it was our job in New York to get you, you know, to get you from the Upper West Side down to Wall.  19:34 - Anne (Host) Street over to Midtown yeah, I know so many voice actors who still um go into studios to audition in New York. I mean, I almost don't hear about it anymore, except for well, I'm sorry, excuse me to go into the go on for booking.  19:48 - Billy (Host) No for bookings, they will.  19:49 - Anne (Host) They encourage that now but I have heard people in the last couple of years. I mean it's not every day, but sometimes they are going in. I don't know if it's to audition or if it's to actually do the job it's usually you know there's one or two the studios.  20:03 - Billy (Host) You know a couple of the studios that do auditioning, because that's what changed? Oh, okay, that makes sense, like all the advertising agencies that were in-house casting directors and those casting directors ended up going to the studios in New York and they have in-house casting directors, so they will encourage the Sonic Unions. The. Headrooms the Sound Lounges they will encourage hey, if the client is local to New York, boom, have them come in. Oh, that makes sense. And it kind of opened up because not everybody got SourceConnect especially our older clients.  20:40 It wasn't cost effective for them for that one audition every other month. It wasn't so the foreign language people, they weren't getting it because there weren't enough opportunities. But especially I I want to say the older clients they really weren't getting so this kind of opened up. If you lived in New York you could still send an MP3 and you're able to go to Sound Lounge for the booking that was always that's always a nice caveat.  21:06 - Anne (Host) So I'm sure people ask you this all the time. Commercial voiceover has changed, evolved over the years. Advertisers have changed how they buy and consumers have changed, I think, how they listen. What would you say is what sort of things have changed in terms of trends for commercial VO? What are you looking for now that maybe is different than what was relevant maybe five, even five or 10 years ago, Because I know probably you're going to say like 30 years ago it was more of that announcer sort of style, it was promo. But you know, maybe five, 10 years ago, what has changed?  21:43 - Billy (Host) You know, it was the, you know, when I first started. It was the time, when, you know, Demi Moore started with Keds and there was that raspy, damaged sound that has kind of you know, demi Moore started with kids and she there was that raspy damage sound that has, kind of you know, was such a thing for so long and our and I know our women back then, you know, were the most successful.  22:04 - Anne (Host) I coveted that which is not a part of my genetic makeup at all. I'm like I can't, I can't get a raspy.  22:11 - Billy (Host) No, if you don't, you know you can't put oh, I woke up with a, you know, with a sore throat today. I sound great I should audition. No, you shouldn't. Exactly. So that was. You know, that was always the thing and yeah, it was the rough and tough announcers and you know all those, all those guys, and then that kind of went away and it was the John Corbett kind of sound and he was you.  22:31 he stuck around for a long time as a prototype and now it's Paul Rudd and Rashida Jones and then. So those trends kind of changed. But then about 10 years ago, everything you know really were, it was people of color. You know they wanted voices for actors and that really opened up a wide, you know a wider net. There was no general market anymore because they used to say, you know, they were very specific, we want a Caucasian voice. But now you only see that if you're doing a demo for the on-camera and the on-camera actor happens to be a certain color. But they want authenticity. I remember you know getting. Now, everybody, especially in the union world, they want authenticity. I remember you know getting. You know everybody, especially in the union world, they all want to check boxes. You know, yeah, yeah, they, yeah, so they, you know it's all ethnicities. You know we want non-binary people and I'm like what does a non-binary person sound?  23:27 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) like I don't, it took me you know.  23:29 - Billy (Host) Then I realized oh, they don't really, they're just checking off boxes, but for the, you know, for the African-American community, they were in vogue. They were, you know, I would get breakdowns, all ethnicities, and the prototypes would be Viola Davis, Tiffany Haddish and Angela.  23:49 Bassett, Do the math you know, so that was a thing. And Angela Bassett do the math. You know, so that was a thing. And I think you know, I still think that that is happening. But I'm finding a trend like that is kind of changing, where general market is truly general market. Now they want, you know, it's everybody, it's everything.  24:09 - Anne (Host) That's great. Yes, I love to hear that.  24:12 - Billy (Host) That's the way it should have been, but unfortunately it was so the other way for so long and then it shifted and now it's kind of evening out.  24:21 - Anne (Host) Sure.  24:21 - Billy (Host) Sure, I don't know.  24:23 - Anne (Host) Well, I mean, that's what I was thinking would happen at some point. Right, it would even out and it's kind of nice to hear that that's happening.  24:31 I mean, I wouldn't want it to go another extreme you know, at all, you know, and especially because the world's a little chaotic right now and I know that it's affecting companies and their advertising, and so that to me says gosh, I hope that there's still as much opportunity for everybody as there ever was. And so that's just one of those things where I think if there was a slow part of the season, maybe it's people, you know. I think there's companies trying to gauge like what's happening and what's going to be what's going to work for them in terms of advertising.  25:08 And it's not so much the voice, but the whole, the whole thing, yeah, the whole, all of it On camera, all of it, all of it. How are they going to advertise it to be effective?  25:18 - Billy (Host) And I think you know, and I think that and this is just me I feel like voice wise, I feel that the union world is more tries to check the boxes, much more than the non-union world.  25:32 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) I truly than the non-union world.  25:33 - Billy (Host) I truly believe the non-union world they're gonna pick the best voice for the job, no matter what ethnicity you are.  25:41 I find, and I just because of the actors that I speak with, not only because I speak with my non-union actors in general so much more, just simply because there's so much opportunity there. But I notice, with my union actors I just don't A I don't really have that many opportunities for them. But you know it is. I speak to certain ones more, a lot more than the others. But I don't find that, I find it much broader in the non-union world. I mean it's a different and I've learned so much about the non-union world. I mean it's a different and I've learned so much about the, the non-union community and how. You know how different it is. I feel that it is much more I don't know how to say it. It's much more of a community, I feel.  26:27 I feel that they, they really are supportive of each other, they help each other. It's not as competitive or as petty competitive as it can sometimes be in the union world, it's just, and I think it's fabulous that they really everybody's out to help each other much more in that community.  26:52 - Anne (Host) Well, that's refreshing to hear. I like that from you, Absolutely. So then for you, for talent on your roster. What sort of qualities are you looking for in any talent that might appear on your roster? You know what's funny.  27:06 - Billy (Host) When I first started, you know, when COVID happened first thing, when I and I did a lot of these classes, first thing I was like, obviously the first thing was do you have SourceConnect? You know if?  27:17 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) you have SourceConnect, because so few?  27:18 - Billy (Host) people did.  27:19 - Anne (Host) You went right to the top of my list.  27:22 - Billy (Host) Yeah, if you had SourceConnect, and then it's, you know, and then it's just about reading the copy, and that's the same basic thing is, how do you read copy? Some of my most successful people, my white actors over 40, I have a couple of them and they just read copy. So well, I don't know what it is, they just they're just, they're just great they were. And so, yeah, there's. You can't teach it, it's, you know, it's just natural. This one particular guy, yeah, does he have that Paul Rudd feel to him? Just that guy next door, just that real comfortable, relaxed, nothing pushed, that's how he is in life and that's how it comes across Right, right. Oh, there was something else.  28:06 Oh, I did this one class and there was this woman, you know, like late 20s white woman, and there was just something. I was on a panel, I was one of three people and, oh my God, she was. There was just something about her read that made me crazy and like the next day I was like I have, you know, I want to set you up. I love you, you know, I love you the best. And now, here we are. I love you, know, I love you the best, and now here we are, fast forward to probably a little more than a year. She is one of my most successful actresses on my roster. And what is it about her? I don't know. She's just fabulous. You know, she just, she just reads. It's just, it's honest.  28:50 - Anne (Host) So I'm always looking for that honest. I like that honest, yeah, authentic, yeah. And I like, with that honest, I like that honest, yeah, authentic, yeah. And I like how you know we've heard for for so long right, bring you to the party, bring you to the party, it's that. I think that's so important. And and we throw it around like, oh yeah, okay, I can bring me, but and yet so many people still try to perform, uh and and if they really can just stop in their own head and and just bring themselves to the party because, like you and I like talk like there's something about like I really like Billy, and it's, it's, it's like an intangible thing and it's your personality, right, it's, it's how we connect.  29:23 - Billy (Host) And I think that's what's so right away. The first time we met, we would just like exactly.  29:30 - Anne (Host) I think that's the same thing for voice actors. If you can, you know, if, if you've got a great personality and you're like one of those people that you can connect with right away, I mean that's what I think we're looking for, that authenticity it's you're not trying to, you know, push anything and and this is who you are and I love to hear that, because I keep telling people gosh, you are enough. I mean it really is. Please don't try to be anything other than yourself, because I really like you.  29:55 - Billy (Host) Yes, and so many voice actors. They forget that.  30:00 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) you know this is acting and I said you know you got to get out of your head into your gut.  30:05 - Billy (Host) Whether you're selling peas for 99 cents, it doesn't matter. You have to be, you know, honest and authentic with it, so important. Now I have to ask the question authentic with it, so important?  30:14 - Anne (Host) Now I have to ask the question because you know probably everybody does. And what do you think about the threat of AI in the industry, and especially now that there's? It's not even just voice, it's on camera too.  30:27 - Billy (Host) Yeah, yeah. So I mean, we keep our eye on it. We read every contract, we read every contract, we read every breakdown. You know SAG is doing their best. Bless their hearts.  30:42 You know, nava is you know, above and beyond, what they're doing with the rules and the legislation and what they're doing. You know it's coming, it's not going away and it's going to get better and better. So we just try to keep our eyes and ears on everything and try to follow the rules and say, nope, large deal right now. And there was a huge component with um. They wanted an AI replica and fortunately, the person um doing it was like no, I've heard replicas of my voice and they're not, and they never sound as good as the real thing.  31:27 - Anne (Host) Um, so that's a really interesting point because I know for a fact that that's true, because I, you know back in the day. Well, back a few years ago, I started really delving deep into that and researching companies and how they made voices, and I've heard a lot of voices and there are some people who are amazing actors but yet their voice doesn't translate. Well, either it's the AI technology that has not given, it's just it's not doing the right thing for them and, yeah, it doesn't translate.  31:56 - Billy (Host) Yeah, and he said no, I, I will not. It's my, it's my voice, it's my reputation, and I will be available whenever they need me. They were like well, what in case he's what? You know? What if he's away on vacation?  32:08 - Anne (Host) Yeah, he said there are no VO emergencies. No, there are no VO emergencies, Right, there's no VO emergencies.  32:15 - Billy (Host) So yeah, so are we concerned about it? Yeah, am I concerned, absolutely, but you know I can't lose sleep over it.  32:23 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) It's coming.  32:24 - Billy (Host) You know, it's coming, and so we just have to manage it and make it work to our advantage.  32:30 - Anne (Host) Yes, I agree, I agree, I and make it work to our advantage. Yes, I agree, I agree, I love that. So I'm very excited because you're going to be doing a class for us, a VO Boss workshop, in November. As a matter of fact, it's going to be November 12th. Can you tell us a little bit about what we're going to be doing in that class?  32:48 - Billy (Host) Well, what I usually do is I like to just kind of give my spiel about what I've been doing and I guess the do's and don'ts of the proper way to get in touch with an agent, what to expect, what not to expect from you know. Once you're submitting to an agent, I just try to, I try to just say the things you know, kind of give the tips that actors need to know. You know what's proper, what's not, what's gonna get you. You know what's gonna get you seen, what's gonna get you heard. You know what makes it easy for me, the agent.  33:24 And I've come to also realize that it works differently from agency to agency. So I can only speak to what works for me, um, at CESD, um, but we'll, you know, I'll talk about that and I'll just talk about my feelings on on what it takes, what tools you're going to need and I mean like literal tools, what kind of demos you're going to need, that sort of stuff. Do a little Q and a and then read some copy, you know and anybody that does come to the class.  33:54 um, it's gotta be commercial copy, because that's that's what I do, you know um. I, I'm, I'm not going to be able to judge you on your animation copy or you know that kind of stuff. That's not really what I do. So we'll, you know, we'll do that and we'll tear it apart and hopefully get to two pieces within the class.  34:14 - Anne (Host) Yeah, I love that. We'll see. Yay, well, I'm very excited for that and, bosses, I'll be putting a link so that you can sign up for it, because I'm quite sure it's going to go quickly. Now my last question is because you said you're in upstate New York and I, you know, I have my own, like my own, nostalgic memories of upstate New York, and so, for me, I'd be riding a horse, you know, in in the countryside. So if you weren't an agent, philly, what would you be doing right now? Oh God, would you have a different career? Would you be retired and riding horses, or?  34:49 - Billy (Host) Yeah, well, you know, I've only had three different jobs in my life, okay, well, you know, other than high school jobs. I was an actor slash waiter, and then I became an agent. You know Like I've been it's you know. So I moved to New York to be an actor and that didn't happen, but I always kind of I was. I had a friend who was a commercial casting director and so I used to go in and help him out at the casting calls.  35:20 That was back in the days of Polaroids and signing up and I really was fascinated by it. And he would you know. And he kept saying there's an opening at this agency. Do you want to go? And I would go and audition, you know, to be an assistant. Sure, and then boom, boom, boom.  35:35 And then, it just so happens, he said CED, because we weren't CESD at that point it was looking to expand the voiceover department and was I interested, and my partner at the time said go and audition. I mean go and audition, apply for the job, cause one of these days you will make more money than me. And so you know. And um and so um, and now, every year, every year. I'm still in touch with him and I call him and I say thank you, greggy, for allowing me to have this job.  36:08 - Anne (Host) Here's my annual income report allowing me to have this job.  36:11 - Billy (Host) Here's my annual income report yes, so anyway, yeah. So I've thought about this. What do I do? I'm too old to be a waiter.  36:23 - Anne (Host) I'm not going to go back, though I think I would be really good at it.  36:25 - Billy (Host) I have these- I agree, actually, you've got the social I think I could do. Yeah, so do I go. But when I retire, whenever that is, I want to social. I think I could do. Yeah, you know, so do I go. But you know, when I retire, you know, whenever that is, I'm on a travel. I just love to travel, that's, that's my thing. So you know. You know, I feel like when this is behind me, that I will, you know, I'll just travel. I'm not going to be on a horse up here, but I always had.  36:50 You know, sometimes I've had, you know, I don't know if I even want another. You know job and I'm at that point now where you know, I'm old and I don't want another career. It's not like I'm. You know, I'm going to be an artist, or you know, I once thought I thought well, maybe I'll just go do community theater somewhere.  37:07 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) I have a friend.  37:08 - Billy (Host) I have a friend, interestingly enough, a little older than I am, lives in Chicago and he started taking an acting class just for the hell of it.  37:16 - Anne (Host) For the hell of it.  37:17 - Billy (Host) And he said, the others they love it because they have somebody to play the old man in all those scenes. And I thought, oh my God, that's great, I could do that. Yeah, I love that. I thought yeah, why not community theater you? Know, if that was it. Now there's no community theater in New York City, so if that's where I retire, you know. But if I was to retire up here, you know that would interest me, and you know because I am a lover of theater, so I do.  37:46 - Anne (Host) Yeah, Well, I feel like you kept yourself in the acting world, you know by being an agent I mean in that you know, it's still like a. It's still you're very much immersed in it, and so I feel like, if that was your one love, you came to New York, by the way. Where did you come from?  38:02 - Billy (Host) I grew up in Waltham Massachusetts, oh okay. Okay yeah, just a little outside of. Boston.  38:07 - Anne (Host) Yeah, very familiar with it. I went.  38:09 - Billy (Host) Yeah, I grew up in Waltham and then I went to UMass, Amherst and then to New York.  38:14 - Anne (Host) That was my. Oh, fantastic, yeah, there you go. Well, my gosh, it has been such a pleasure chatting with you today. I mean, I could go on. I feel like we could go on, but at some point, I do have to quit at some point.  38:32 But yeah, thank you so so much for sharing your wisdom. It's been really a joy talking with you. I'm so excited for November. Guys, bosses, remember November 12th. Get yourself to vobosscom and sign up to work with this gentleman. He's amazing, and I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and network like bosses like Billy and myself, and find out more at IPDTLcom. Guys, have an amazing week and I'll see you next week. Bye, bye.  39:05 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

The sensible and lovely Danielle Famble joins BOSS Anne Ganguzza to discuss a critical, often-overlooked aspect of running a voiceover business: disaster preparedness and maintaining operations during times of crisis. Using Danielle's personal experience of a sudden apartment flood, the hosts outline the necessary steps for every voice actor to ensure both physical and financial resilience.

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by her superpower co-host, Lau Lapides, to discuss a critical issue in the voiceover industry: brand alignment and navigating controversy. Sparked by the American Eagle/Sydney Sweeney campaign, the hosts explore how a voice actor's ethics and personal brand are intrinsically linked to the clients they represent. They emphasize that in the age of social media, protecting your digital reputation is non-negotiable for long-term career success. 00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey bosses, Anne Ganguzza, you know your journey in voiceover is not just about landing gigs. It's about growing both personally and professionally. At Anne Ganguzza Voice Productions, I focus on coaching and demo production that nurtures your voice and your confidence. Let's grow together. Visit anneganguzza.com to find out more.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Ganguzza.  00:47 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Boss Superpower Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with my awesome superpower co-host Lollapetas.  00:56 - Lau (Guest) Hello, Annie, it's so good to be back. I love being in this Zoom room with you. Or it's not Zoom, but it's Riverside, but I love being in this space room with you. Or it's not Zoom, but it's Riverside, but I love being in this space with you, I know I look forward to it.  01:10 - Anne (Host) We get to see each other and it's been so long it's fabulous when we get back together because we have so much to catch up on. I know, I know oh my gosh.  01:19 - Lau (Guest) By the way, I love your outfit today. You look great.  01:23 - Anne (Host) Why thank you my, my jean shirt or my denim shirt? No, what's really cool about this is this is kind of well, I should say it's it's. It's deceiving, maybe because it looks like it's denim but it's actually like French Terry, and so it's super, super comfortable. But you know, speaking of jeans, I was going to say what color are your jeans.  01:50 Well, you know, I have good jeans and advertising campaigns for our businesses. I mean gosh, it's all over the news. I mean the American Eagle campaign with Sydney Sweeney. I mean, you know, she's got good jeans, and so it's a really interesting debate. I think it's something that we could absolutely relate to our own voiceover businesses in terms of associating with now, first of all, like associating with a brand that may or may not be controversial or may or may not be on the side of you know where your feelings align. I think that would be a really, really interesting topic.  02:30 - Lau (Guest) Lau I love that topic because we hear that word floating in the industry now for quite a while branding. Branding is connected to marketing, is connected to selling right and how you represent yourself and who you're connected to. That helps you represent yourself as well. And making some of those concerted decisions on who you want to be attached to and connected to, that really help you design your ethos of your business.  02:58 - Anne (Host) Well, they can help you. They can help you be successful in the industry, or maybe not. They can help you be controversial in the industry, or maybe not. They can help you be controversial in the industry. It's such an interesting. Now you know one thing about that campaign for me, when I first saw it, I didn't think anything of it, because I am a woman of a certain age and I remember the Jean campaign with Brooke Shields and Calvin Klein, and I just remember it, with Brooke Shields and Calvin Klein, and I just remember it, you know. And so, as a girl in, I think it was in elementary or high school. I can't remember when that came out, but it was the 80s, right? All I know is that I wanted a pair of Calvin Klein jeans because I wanted to look like Brooke Shields. Now today, didn't we all did not we Right?  03:41 No, I thought nothing of it, right, I thought nothing really horrible of it. But then it did become controversial because obviously she was, you know, she was young when she did that ad and it was a little bit sexually, you know, promiscuous, some people would say. And so, you know, today that type of advertising wouldn't fly and I think people are comparing Sydney Sweeney with that, because of she's got good genes, you've got an attractive female and a pair of jeans, and you know, of course, american Eagle says you know, it was always all about the genes, it's not always not about the, not about the misconception that jeans J-E-A-N-S is similar to G-E-N-E-S, so there's a lot to unpack there.  04:25 I don't know how did you react to it when it first came out? What were your thoughts?  04:29 - Lau (Guest) Well, you know what's so funny about the Brooke Shields thing that you bring up? That's the first thing I thought of is that everyone who's outraged about it is not old enough to remember the Brooke Shields and that's what they were really copying. I think that was a copycat from 45 years ago Going back to the old let's sell.  04:45 Yeah, but if you remember, annie, it was there was another controversy hooked on to Brooke Shields at that time, based on that commercial, because that was right around the time that she had shot Blue Lagoon, blue Lagoon, yeah, and she was only like 11, 11 or 12.  05:05 - Anne (Host) I think it was 13.  05:05 - Lau (Guest) Well, by that time she was about 13. But she was still very young and the mother was managing her and so there was a huge blowup and controversy about this young girl doing these so-called sexually explicit commercials about my sexuality and my body, about my sexuality and my body. And I remember thinking, and when I saw it again I thought wow, how did she get those jeans on without showing us anything, right in front of us, Like I was amazed and, as a young girl, I yeah, it was a Cirque du Soleil act.  05:35 It was amazing. Yeah, you know, as a young girl, media is so influential right.  05:41 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) So, influential.  05:41 - Anne (Host) The thing is that, as voice actors, we really have a part in playing into the media, right, because our voices are representing brands, and for me at the time, I didn't consider anything wrong with it. All I know is that I wanted to look like Brooke Shields in those jeans and therefore I wanted the jeans. And I'll tell you what it was an expressly popular campaign that made Calvin Klein a ton of money, a ton of money.  06:09 - Lau (Guest) But if you look at it now as an adult and you listen from a voiceover perspective, her voice was very, very young very kidlike and very straightforward. She was trying to be, if anything, a little bit smart or intellectual versus overly sexy and centralized, but yet the perception, the visual right Was that was that.  06:34 - Anne (Host) That's exactly it. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things there, and if you were the voice of a campaign that was controversial, right would. If it was something you believed in or didn't believe in, is that something that, as a voice actor, would you accept? And I think, or an actor, I mean any kind of role right? Do you accept those roles if they align with your belief system or your morals or your ethics or whatever that is, and how can it propel your business forward or not?  07:07 I mean, there's just so much that we have choices in, and as well as influence in, as voice actors, and we think sometimes we're hiding behind this microphone, but no, we're still a very intricate part of a media campaign. And so, really, as a voice actor, how do you decide? Really, is you know, oh, this could really propel my campaign if I decide that I want to align with this brand and be the voice of it, or sometimes it's not even about being the voice of it. It's maybe working with that brand in any capacity. You know, how is that going to affect your business? Because people have opinions, people always have opinions, and gosh aren't they all over the place.  07:56 - Lau (Guest) Now that social media is prevalent, they're the Wild West we like to call it right, Annie, it's the Wild West.  07:59 And I would say in my mind it's likened to all the people, not just women but men too. In my mind it's likened to all the people, not just women but men too, but certainly all the women, who have said for many years you know, I am interested in doing romance novels, exotica work, triple X, adult swim as a voiceover talent, but I'm concerned about how my business is going to be viewed. I'm going to use an AKA, an alter ego, another name, another business name, and so I think that voiceover talent have been making these decisions for a very, very long time. Even though we don't have the visuals for the voiceover talent, we may have the visual for the work and so for the work itself may give visuals and vocals that are not aligned with the talent's vision of their business, and sometimes you don't even know.  08:49 - Anne (Host) Sometimes you don't even know, right. I mean you can tell a lot by the context of the script sometimes, but sometimes you can. You don't know where that's going to end up. And again, now that makes me think of, like, you know deep fakes and AI and you don't know where your voice is going to be used. But if you are, you know, an active participant and you are aware, I think really the best thing you can do if these things are concerning to you, right, the more you know, the more you're educated, the better off you're going to be, because you can make those decisions to determine if you want to be aligned.  09:24 I mean there have been careers ruined by, you know, wrong brand alignment, and gosh knows with today's you know political climate. I mean it comes down to and you know what, laura, it comes down to if you think about it. We're in a business. We need to make money, right, and guess what? So are companies that are advertising, right. They're in the business to make money and so a lot of times our decisions are based on money. Yeah.  09:52 - Lau (Guest) Wake up, smell the coffee right, and it's like who is to judge what one person or one brand identity or one company should or shouldn't be doing. It's really in the eyes and ears of the audience. It's really the perception. So, as many people really disagree, fervently disagree and are angered and outraged by that particular American Eagle campaign, you have a mass swath of people who are buying everything.  10:24 - Anne (Host) That gene that she is, they can't keep. I'm just saying or buying everything that gene, that gene that they can't keep it on the proverbial shelf Exactly.  10:29 Right, Exactly so yeah, and it's interesting because I read a couple of. I read a couple of articles about it and they, of course, american Eagle says it's all about the genes. It's always been about the genes and in reality it kind of is like a return back to marketing. You know, marketing for the last few years has been very concerned with, of course, the shift, notice how the shift in cultural trends, right to making sure inclusivity, diversity, you know, every body type is shown and everybody is represented, which I thought was great. I mean I love that. But apparently, like, if you're in the business, I mean, did it sell? I thought it did.  11:09 Personally, I aligned with it better and I bought, I consumed, just like I did before. However, there is a a huge, there's a huge another aspect to this to unpack, about influencers, right, I mean, in reality, I mean she's a famous actress, right, and so just like Brooke Shields. So if she's going to wear these jeans and feel good in them and look good in them, then that's going to really entice other people to buy and you know, or not, right? And If they, I mean how many times? Lau and I I have very strong ideas about like companies and what they do with their money. So like if they're known to, you know, I don't know, do bad things. I will not support of things that companies do behind the scenes and therefore, when I do find out, I then have a choice, to make a decision whether I want to consume that, you know, buy that or not. And I think that, again, as a consumer and as a voice actor, the more educated we can be, the better decisions we can make to determine if we want to align with that.  12:21 - Lau (Guest) I would totally agree and I would say the irony to me about talking about influencers online is why are they called influencers? Yeah, yeah, they're called influences because they have powerful influence over mass swaths of people who want to look like them, sound like them, live like them, whatever. Of people who want to look like them, sound like them, live like them, whatever. So if we were to make a value judgment, we would have to make it evenly across the board between network television and social media and voiceover and radio and TV, that that is just a no-go, which, of course, no one's going to do. We're not going to do that because you know it's a free country and people are going to run their businesses how they run their businesses girls on Instagram to get that facelift or to get those eyebrows or to get those lash extensions, to feel good about who they are.  13:27 - Anne (Host) Well, oh no, okay, you bring up a really important point here, right To feel good about who you are. So what I do because you know I do a little bit of fashion influencing- I know you are an influencer, actually.  13:39 - Lau (Guest) My well, oh my goodness, put your influencer hat on.  13:42 - Anne (Host) So my influencer hat is and I've been, I've been multiple sizes, I've been big and I've been small, right, I mean, I don't know, I've never considered myself small, but that's a whole nother podcast. So, depending on the size right, I followed different influencers. I found and for the most part, if you think about it, when I was a little bit bigger, I had an influencer who I loved her because she was bigger and she was confident and she was beautiful. And I said, gosh, if I could just be confident. And you know, and as a matter of fact, people in my life I've known, I'm like gosh, she's bigger and she's confident. I wish I could be confident like that. I could be confident like that. And then when I, when I started to lose weight, then I it's funny because I switched, following the one influencer who her body type was a little bit bigger, to an influence it was a little bit more my, my body type size, or maybe even smaller, because it was then helpful, it was motivating for me, or inspiring to me.  14:36 And so, in reality and in every instance, right, the influencer made me feel better about myself. Right, I was either motivated or inspired. To well, people are going to say it might be healthy if you say, oh, I want to look like them. But in reality, when it came to my weight, my body size, it was more about becoming healthy. I needed to become healthy, right. And yeah, the clothes were pretty. I didn't have that option with these clothes at this particular size. So, yeah, there was something inspirational and motivational. And then there was the girl who I still follow. She's a bigger girl who is just beautiful at whatever size she's at, and it's really the message that she's saying. That's really the most important thing.  15:17 - Lau (Guest) But I have a question about that, annie, and I know we're getting a little farther away from the voiceover aspect, but from a performance and business aspect, voiceovers need to be thinking about all of this and how you represent your brand and how you think about what you do. Well, absolutely, my question is you have a lot of these people, including, like Lizzo, for instance she was the first one that came to my mind, yeah who made it very public that they lost a ton of weight and that they are very happy they did that and very happy that they're healthier and very happy at whatever they're at.  15:51 - Anne (Host) Yeah.  15:52 - Lau (Guest) So it makes you question well, wait a second, is this for branding sake, to have those brands out there because they know, like a big part of the population is, say, has a certain look or a certain size or a certain sound? Well, yeah, the biggest demographic, the biggest demographic, right? Yeah, versus the reality of the person actually feeling good in their life, I'm going to argue that they're performers and they're performing and that many of them don't feel good about some of the choices they've made in their life and therefore they go and change it. Or their company representatives say you need to change this brand because it is not resonating with the majority of our audiences and we will never know.  16:38 Never know how much influence comes from which direction. We will really not know, that right.  16:44 - Anne (Host) Absolutely. I mean and again this is I mean for bosses out there if you think we're going off topic, in reality we're not, because we're not talking about marketing and advertising, which directly affects us. I mean, that's where we I mean our voices are representing brands that have fluctuations in the way that they advertise and in the way that they market their products, and it's important for us to understand where it's headed, where the trends are and really what is it that matters. And then, what is it that matters to you as an actor, being a part of that campaign, resonating with a brand that may or may not be controversial? Right, Brands change.  17:26 - Lau (Guest) This is where you have to forgive yourself they shift and change trends over time, because that's the natural state of being a human being, is that you age, you change, trends change whatever. Another one that comes to my mind one of my favorite original rappers and then became actress was Queen Latifah. Yeah, yeah. Who I loved for so many reasons. Yeah she's awesome Right.  17:50 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Rubenesque woman beautiful woman.  17:52 - Lau (Guest) Well, she went on a whole campaign I can't remember what it was, whether it was Jenny Craig or Nutrisystem or whatever it was, but she became the brand ambassador of them to lose weight and she had trouble doing it and she never reached the target weight. When she didn't, they dropped her. Yeah, yeah, okay. So my point is was that her and it made you feel like, it made me feel like you know, when you use Tide or use a laundry detergent and then, all of a sudden, you've been using it and it's been good for years, and then it's like no, all new developed. You think, what have I been using that whole time? It wasn't really good. That's how it made me feel.  18:31 - Anne (Host) Well influencing you know and marketing advertising, influencing in their way influencing right as opposed to, and I think that's why influencers became really popular, because it was real people, it wasn't companies. Well, it was the illusion of real people, right?  18:47 Well, they are real people Right right, oh look, I'm not being paid for this but a lot of times, influencers, they get a little bit of a cut. I mean I, you know, hey, I got a little bit of a cut. I'm encouraged to, you know, try this top or this, you know, this pants set or whatever, and then talk about it so that I can get a little bit of a break or a deal. But I creatively love to curate outfits and, to be quite honest, the amount of time I spend at this point because I don't do it full time the amount of time that I spend, you know, putting together videos and stuff, it takes a lot of time. That's my, that's like a, that's a day of my weekend in reality, and I don't make I don't make half as much money as I do when I'm doing voiceover. So for me that's just like a passion project.  19:31 But what is it that voice actors you know need to do? I mean, I think that you either don't realize that you are an intrinsic part of a brand that could or could not be, you know, I mean, you probably know if they're controversial. It's the same thing with political voiceover, Right, we talked about this like not so long ago. What's you know? Are you on a particular side of the fence? Are you? Is your voice, your voice being speaking things that align with your, what you believe in and your morals and your ethics? Or are you just voicing things to make money, because it happens to be something that pays the bills?  20:09 - Lau (Guest) Right and really paying attention to what your audience is identifying your value as. Like I can come in and say, well, I'm going to provide this, I'm going to do this, but I may not have the calling for that. I have to pay attention. Where is the calling of the audience?  20:27 And then go to the. If I want to go to the full extent of that brand, give them awareness of what it is, awareness of my, you know, professionalism, my ethos in it. Whatever that is, it's not always what I'm starting out to be is what it's going to be. I see that all the time like a mismatch of brand knowledge. Someone would say, well, I do this all the time, I play this all the time and I say, right, but what are you being hired for? What you're being hired for might be very different than what you do in your side life.  21:01 - Anne (Host) And if you think about it, like if you align yourself with a style of voiceover that is, you know, has a message, right, that may or it on levels with brands that I've been associated with, where, if you're not careful and you know I mean with the VO Boss podcast, right, if you're not careful people will associate you with those brands as well, and you know that can be detrimental to your career, to your livelihood, and that is something it's sometimes. It's not an easy decision. It's not an easy decision to make. It's not an easy decision.  21:42 - Lau (Guest) It's not an easy decision to make. It's not an easy decision. You have to realize you're performing a part. So whenever you are in that what I call the awareness zone that's like the industry awareness of who you are Like I feel like I play two parts. One is the real person in the larger world, who may or may not know me, and then the person, the mama, who knows me, who people know me in the larger world, who may or may not know me, and then the person, the mama, who knows me, who people know me in the industry. And when I play that role, I know I'm always to some degree on, you're always on and having that awareness that there is a performance value to what you do. How?  22:15 - Anne (Host) interesting because your brand, since I've known you, has evolved into Mama Lau, which you know what I mean. Because I want to say it's because I started calling you Mama Lau, because that's what I called my mother, and then it turned into Mama Lau, but now as Mama Lau, known as Mama Lau in the industry. Right, you now need to be considerate of. Okay, what does this brand speak about me? And if you were to do something, that would not be Mama Lau.  22:42 - Lau (Guest) Right, so I'm not going to go to Vegas and become a stripper anytime soon. Are you going to?  22:47 - Anne (Host) be an erotic. I mean, would you be an erotica audiobook narrator? I mean, well, maybe not under Mama Lau but, here, you are here you are with. Unless you're going to be a character voice, right, here you are, I know your voice. And unless you're going to be a character voice and I don't recognize that voice, right, our voices are recognizable.  23:07 I mean, some of us have immediately, like I know, this person's voice from you know long you know, far, far away, I can tell that voice and I have that with some of my students that have distinctly unique voices, right, I'm thinking they probably can't go into you know erotica character work if they don't want to know other people to know about it. Yes, you know, if you want other people to know about it, that's fine. But for you, under that brand, you have to. There's a responsibility to that brand, right?  23:34 - Lau (Guest) Yes, there is.  23:34 - Anne (Host) In what you do. It reminds me of. It reminds me of oh my gosh, who was it? Who was it? He was a comedian. He was fired in 2011 due to offensive tweets he made about the Japan earthquake and the tsunami. And it is, oh my gosh, gilbert Gottfried. There you go.  23:50 - Lau (Guest) Oh wow, how could we not?  23:52 - Anne (Host) remember that, yes. I know right Gilbert Gottfried.  23:55 - Lau (Guest) I didn't know that.  23:56 - Anne (Host) Yeah, oh yeah, and it was. It was. That was, I think, when it first, at least when I was in the industry, when it first became evident that social media and what you do outside of your job in voice acting, will have a direct effect, if it's offensive enough, right On your job. And you know, nowadays people have to be careful on social media what they're posting. And because companies can now go check out your social media, because companies can now go check out your social media, and so for you as a voice actor, again, it has to come to mind that if you are known, or if you are known in social media, now your actions, if people were to look you up on social media and find that you're associated with a brand or find that you are, you've done something that I don't know is not something that aligns with their ethics right, it can affect your business.  24:52 - Lau (Guest) So in a way, annie, it's kind of like we're blurring the lines of our real reality of living a life as a person, with our business and our performance career, that there is kind of that expectation that you sort of represent it all of your life, all of your life, and you're not going to go through anything. That's antithetical to that image that is being put out there, which I mean. For me it's easy because I'm kind of like, I'm a mama type anyway, but for the average person I think that would be hard, that would be a challenge.  25:27 Mama Lau as mama Lau would not go to a Coldplay concert and get yourself caught on the probably not. I'd be the person standing outside with food, waving my hand, going what did you do in there? What did you do?  25:37 - Anne (Host) And we should bring that up, because yet there's another like CEO of you know, of a company, and then the director of HR, the director of the people I forget what they call it now. I'm like director of HR, no people, ceo of people. Forgive me for not knowing what her title was. She was HR, wasn't she?  25:55 - Lau (Guest) The head of HR. Yes, Like top HR, you know? Executive.  26:00 - Anne (Host) I think PMO is a people. I forget what it is, but anyways, see it, you know. So, really, if you think about it, what did that do those actions do to the brand? Right To the brand. Yes, they say all all, what is it? All publicity is good publicity, but do you think that this was good publicity for the company?  26:24 - Lau (Guest) No, no, I don't either. I don't think there was any redeeming value to that and that felt to me it could have been happenstance, but it felt like a setup. It felt like someone tipped someone off to put them on the jumbotron.  26:37 - Anne (Host) Oh interesting, I didn't think that it didn't just feel random.  26:40 - Lau (Guest) There was like, like, how many people were there?  26:44 - Anne (Host) 50,000? I don't know. I think I, I didn't think it, I don't think they were set up, I mean, unless you have somebody in the company that's like. Well, I mean, first of all you have to, you have to know the person that's, you know, focusing on the Jumbotron and say, oh my God, wouldn't it be funny if you know I hate that guy or whatever? But think about it?  27:01 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) I don't know.  27:02 - Anne (Host) Your actions in life right can be directly affected these days because of social media, because of the now back in the day when I had to walk to school 10 miles up a hill in the snow. When there wasn't social media, it was a little easier to get away with, I would say, indiscretions like that.  27:24 - Lau (Guest) But now, maybe even now with being a voiceover talent. You've got that anonymity to some degree.  27:31 - Anne (Host) But not as much anymore. I'm saying not as much anymore, remember, because voice actors, we're all about social media, aren't we? Because, guess what we need to get work and what are we doing? We're trying to showcase're all about social media, aren't we? Because guess what we need to get work and what are we doing? We're trying to showcase our brand on social media, and when you do that, you really have to be prepared for repercussions. If you are going to voice a campaign, associate yourself with a brand that may be controversial, and you know something that is a concern for your business. That may not have been so much of a concern maybe 20, 30 years ago.  28:06 - Lau (Guest) It's true, because I think with probably the third generation now, or what would we say, maybe the second generation now, millennials and Gen Zers, who are digital natives, growing, up online on social media like their life online on social media like they didn't see the commercial.  28:23 Their life- is on social media. So their lines are very blurred, like I would say, arguably our generation x not as blurred like I know. When I was younger I used to think, oh, the Brady kids are really like that. Now I realize they're separate people, right, they're separate people than what they did in the sitcom. But nowadays it's like oh, everyone thinks that anything you do online is you, is really you, and so it puts a lot of pressure on those people to say okay, am I in alignment with the kind of brand that I want to have out there or not?  29:02 And a lot of people will say well, you know what do they say? All good, all press, bad press, negative press is still good, press, it's still good. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I don't think that's true. Yeah, I don't think that's true.  29:15 - Anne (Host) I mean in a way. I mean in a way who said?  29:19 - Lau (Guest) that. Beyonce, who said that Someone big said that I don't even remember, but in a way, american Eagle is benefiting from the controversy.  29:27 - Anne (Host) However, there's really good arguments on either side of it. Again, they're promoting to a crowd you know who are their best sellers. Do you know what I mean? Because, as I and you also talked about in the beginning, we have a certain familiarness with advertising from 30 years ago, right 40 years ago, and so for us, maybe that ad was like oh okay, I didn't think anything of it, but then all of a sudden, because of the younger generation, right, who are like hey, what is this? Or you know, or why, especially with political things going on, what do you mean? Genes like G-E-N-E-S Is that? Then it became a political thing. So I think that we have to be really, really careful, as voice actors on social media, to make sure that we're aware, be aware, educate yourself and be aware of what your voice, what your presence, what your social presence means to your business.  30:33 - Lau (Guest) And I also would add on to that, annie, that we just had a discussion because my group was in New York showcasing of actors and I was really tough, talk about mama, tough. I was really tough and saying listen, I'm just going to tell you this right now If you don't go into your social media right now, before you audition for those agents, those casting directors, those producers, and clean it up and scrub your stuff, scrub it.  30:57 Get reputation defenders. Do whatever you need to do to scrub it. Keep your ideas and ideals separate, because you don't want to alienate people and their whole audience before you even meet them and audition for them, do you? I mean, do you to be a really good note to leave on Digital Digital?  31:25 - Anne (Host) We are digital. We are digital.  31:27 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Your footprint's there.  31:28 - Anne (Host) Digital is traceable, just saying Digital is traceable, you are. Have you ever tried to? And again, we've never really covered this in depth, but if you think about it, if you ever tried to make a comment and then delete it and then it didn't really delete or did, how many people took a screenshot of that? Yeah, you know, before you deleted it.  31:48 So again, things are digital and things, and because we've gotten again on your phone, on your computer, just assume that people are tracing and I know, yes, you can get it's not right and I get that, but just assume and just you know, honestly, just be aware, be aware and protect your business, protect your voice, protect your business and protect your bossness. Guys, be a bossness.  32:16 - Lau (Guest) And I'll leave on this note in saying yes, and I'll piggyback by saying, even just for who you are as a person, be happy and content with the brand you're creating. Because, you're going to have to live with that for a long time. As long as you have your business, you'll have to live with it.  32:34 - Anne (Host) I have people.  32:35 - Lau (Guest) Annie when I go to a conference or something screaming across the room hey mama, how are you? If I didn't like that, I didn't want that, I'd have to change it. I'd have to really change it and make a concerted effort to do that so be happy with what you're selecting and what you're choosing and what your audience is giving to you and, if not, strategize elsewhere, redirect it.  32:59 - Anne (Host) Good stuff, good stuff, amazing Bosses. We would love to hear your thoughts honestly. So you know, write us at theboss, annaviobosscom. We'd love to hear from you right in our community Facebook page. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. So, Lau, it's been amazing, amazing, as always. Big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network like bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Bosses have an amazing week and we'll see you next week.  33:30 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Bye, see you next time. Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.     

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by Tom Dheere to discuss a foundational topic for every voiceover career: coaching. The hosts assert that every voice actor, from beginner to veteran, needs a coach. The Bosses explore why continuous learning is a necessity in today's saturated market, how to avoid being overwhelmed by industry information, and the combined importance of mastering both performance and business skills.   00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey Boss listeners. Are you ready to turn your voiceover career goals into achievements? With my personalized coaching and demo production, I'm here to help you reach new milestones. You know you're already part of a Boss community that strives for the very best. Let's elevate that. Your success is my next project. Find out more at anneganguzza.com.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:44 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Real Bosses series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm delighted to be here with Mr Tom Dheere. Yay, yay, hello Anne, hi Tom, yes, guess what, tom, it's that time of year again.  01:01 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It is you?  01:01 - Anne (Host) know when everybody's going back to school.  01:05 - Tom (Guest) Back to school. Oh yeah, I already bought my trapper keeper.  01:09 - Anne (Host) Oh my gosh, I used to love those. You know that was one of my favorite things about going back to school is buying office supplies and getting ready, and I was one of those rare. I don't know, tom, if you were one of those students, but I loved school. Love, tom, if you were one of those students, but I loved school. Love, love, love school. And it was always exciting to me to, number one, go back for the social component of things and then to go back and like I don't know. I always wanted to like advance in my subjects, and so I was always excited about learning.  01:37 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, me too. I do love school supplies, like if anyone who knows me as just me, or me as the vo strategist like?  01:47 - Anne (Host) of course he loves school supplies right, you know, sharpened pencils and rulers and everything being organized, paper clips and clothes, clothes, my new school clothes.  01:54 - Tom (Guest) You know, hey, oh, love the school clothes. Gotta get the new school clothes.  01:58 - Anne (Host) Well then, speaking of school, you know. I mean maybe it's time that we have a chat about coaching, coaching in this industry. And does it matter, tom, does it? There's so much information out there. Does it matter? Is it beneficial?  02:15 - Tom (Guest) let's, let's, let's chat about that well, one at first. It's funny that we actually haven't talked about this in the few years that we've done the real bosses podcast and two. You know there's an old saying which is never ask an encyclopedia salesman if you need an encyclopedia.  02:28 - Anne (Host) Yes, exactly so you asking?  02:29 - Tom (Guest) me a voiceover coach. If voice actors need voiceover coaching, we'll say well, of course, the answer is yes.  02:34 - Anne (Host) I know and for me to say do we need coaching? As a coach and demo producer.  02:45 - Tom (Guest) Of course. Of course we're gonna say so. Yes, full disclosure. Of course, we as coaches, yes. But here's the thing about it is that I know ann does not accept everybody that that wants to work with her, and I know that not. I don't accept everybody that wants to work with me for all kind, for all kinds of uh, all kinds of reasons. But every voice, regardless of where they are in their journey, needs coaching. You always need to be learning. The greatest baseball players and musicians everyone has a coach. Tiger Woods has a swing coach. Aaron Judge has a baseball bat swing coach as opposed to a golf swing coach. All the greatest artists and athletes have coaching. Do they know more than most? Can they do it better than most? Of course, that's why they are in the positions that they are in doing what they're doing, making what they're making, being as famous as they are, but it's a constant, constant sort of you know all the arts. There needs to be a constant level of education re-education, continuous learning, as they say, absolutely.  03:49 - Anne (Host) And if you're just starting out in the industry, you have to have a fundamental base. And there is, you know, hey, I am the biggest you know. And Google and gangoozle, and gangoozle, and gangoozle, whatever, I am the biggest lover of you know. Search the internet, find the answers. Because I mean, gosh, back in the day, you remember when we used to have to do research, we'd have to actually go to the library and then you would write, like I'd have to write notes for my term paper on like, on like index cards.  04:17 - Tom (Guest) What is this library? What is?  04:19 - Anne (Host) this library. What is this library? Well, our, I mean the library is at our fingertips and so we can. I mean, there's so much out there and, tom, both you and I put out a lot of content in regards to this industry and you know the business of the industry and performance. I give out performance tips and so I think a lot of times when you're first starting out, it can be really overwhelming, and so having a source, a coach, to go to, to kind of make it less overwhelming, can be an actual advantage as well.  04:52 As for me, what was I saying the other day? Oh, in my Pilates class I was like, yeah, I pay to go to this Pilates class so I can do the stretching on the foam roller that I have here at home and I just don't do Right, so I go and use the foam roller that's at the Pilates studio. But there's something to be said in being in a classroom and and actually saying I am dedicating this time for me to learn something or to, you know, to, to, to grow myself, and coaching is a big part of that grow myself, and coaching is a big part of that.  05:30 - Tom (Guest) I agree, the ability to take time and money to commit to a process that you know in. To a certain degree, you could do some of it on your own, but a lot of people most people, I would say like the reason why I have so many mentorship students that I have is that they're like I just need you.  05:48 I just need to have someone to talk to once a month, bounce ideas off of and hold me accountable for it and when you have, and I love accountability and I love stand up groups and meet up groups, but when they actually have to fork money over to me to basically be a paid accountability buddy, there's something to that, something to that I mean. And also, you know, when you're in an accountability buddy group with an accountability buddy or a mastermind group or standup group, that's all great, but most of them are peers.  06:19 Yes, absolutely With the same level of experience and knowledge as you as opposed to working with you or me or another coach who is just have you know, scads of knowledge and experience and the ability to disseminate that knowledge effectively. And also, I know you and I know you keep up with industry trends on a performance and technology and business and marketing level. So do I. We have to do that to be relevant and effective. We have our means. We read the same blogs and watch the same podcasts as everybody else, but I'm sure I know I have my own little secret methods of how I'm keeping up with things, and I'm sure you do too that we're able to aggregate and have, in a concise Anne, to say this is what's going on in the industry, this is how it applies to you. These are the decisions that you could make based on who you are, your talent level, your experience level, the time you have, the money you have that could get you where you want to go.  07:15 - Anne (Host) Well, and the accountability it doesn't just stop with the student. I mean, the coach is accountable. And that is, I think, where the difference is between peer accountability groups, because peer accountability groups, yeah, we can say, yeah, you were supposed to do this last week, or you, this is, this is on your goal sheet, but the stakes are not as high. I don't believe in a peer accountability group as a coach, because coaches are judged on their effectiveness, right, and they they get business based upon their effectiveness and word of mouth. So when you want to go work with someone where that is a factor, you're going to get education.  07:54 That, I think, really counts and is really intentional and therefore, I believe the quality of that is going to be better and it's going to be directly customized, especially if it's one-on-one coaching, and I do both group coaching and one-on-one coaching. But really, when you get that one-on-one time with a coach, there's nothing better than that, because I mean, I look, I offer group coaching as well, but that one-on-one time is precious. That is where it is all about you. It's customized just for you, your career, your growth. And that is where I think coaching really shines and why it still matters and I think, actually, I think it matters more today than it did in years past, because there's so much more competition out there, tom and there's, of course, you know, the synthetic competition out there there, tom, and there's, of course, you know, the synthetic competition out there and we need to really create something, a footprint for ourselves or a voice print, really for ourselves, that is unique and that is competitive and that can actually connect with our audience, which is what our clients are paying us for.  08:59 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, there are more voiceover opportunities for voice actors of all experience levels than ever ever before. There's more genres than ever. There are more voiceover opportunities for voice actors of all experience levels than ever ever before. There's more genres than ever. There are more casting sites than ever, you know, because when I just started, you know there was radio commercials and TV commercials and you know not that much. I mean there was e-learning, reel-to-reel kind of stuff. You know there wasn't that much more.  09:24 Now there's app narration, explainer videos, you know, audio description. There's just so many other ways to get work. But the flip side of that, Anne, is that it's so complicated because there's almost like there's too many choices and there's too many coaches and there's too many casting sites and there's too many blogs and too many podcasts and too many DAWs and too many CRMs and the ability to navigate that and make sure that their time and money is well spent. It's a huge challenge. I mean, I'm on Reddit pretty regularly hanging out on the voiceover related subreddits and listening and watching and, you know, giving advice and stuff like that, and they all say the same thing I don't know where to find a good coach. I don't know how to vet a good coach. I got ripped off by this coach, isn't?  10:15 - Anne (Host) that funny? That's always the question. That's always the question because I think everybody's overwhelmed with that information. You know, I don't think it's unlike just because it's you know the online world today. I don't think it's unlike choices that you have in most everything, right, where can you find a good one? And so what do we do? We rely on word of mouth, we rely on recommendations from our peers who have had a good coach and can recommend a good coach, and so I think that it's good that we have the community and coaches that are out there. You know, hopefully you have a good reputation and if you don't, and if you're just kind of a fly by night coach, well, people will find that out too. So I think that it's, in a way, it's good that there is lots of talk and communication and I always tell you know people, testimonials are always, they're so worthwhile, and word of mouth and communication, and I always tell you know people, testimonials are always, they're so worthwhile and and word of mouth and recommendations. It really is kind of the way, I think, to get work, to get a good coach to do all of that. But I'm talking for me. I'm involved in the performance aspect of the coaching.  11:19 But you right, first of all, you can have the best voice, you can do the best audition, you can be, have the best performance skills ever, but if somebody doesn't know how to find you, or you're not marketing yourself properly, or you don't have your business set up properly guess what? You're not you're gonna sit there and not get hired. I just spoke to a new student the other day who I literally said he's got four demos. And I and he said, like he's been in the business for six years. And he's like well, I don't have an aging yet and I haven't had a VO job yet. And I'm like well, why have you not had a VO job yet? I mean, he's not like he hasn't spent his money. You know what I mean, and so he needs right.  12:00 And then I went and looked at his website. There's absolutely no. And I said, well, you have no examples of work that you've done. You have, you know, and you can't expect to get it all with just an agent, depending on the genre you're in. And he, basically, I said you can have the best voice in the world, but it's not going to do you any good if nobody can find you. So that's where your business coaching comes into play. So it's not just performance coaching that I think is necessary and business coaching is the non-sexy. It's kind of like I do corporate voiceover and it's like the non-sexy part of voiceover. I think business coaching sometimes gets that same stigma and in fact, it's something that I think people need more than ever, more than ever today. Right, and of course, talk about that, tom, of course as the VO strategist, I always say that everybody should get a business coach.  12:44 - Tom (Guest) But to your point is that you could work with me for years and have the best business model, have the best marketing strategies, but if you're not an effective performer, it's not going to matter.  12:58 Yeah, yeah, just like you said, you could be the best performer in the world, but if nobody knows you exist, it's not going to matter either. So it's this synergistic relationship of developing your what I call your storytelling skills, your VO-101 skills, breath control, microphone technique, your genre skills, you know, to be able to be demo ready, to make that shiny demo, and then you can do the things with the demo, which is what I, as the VO strategist, helps everybody with, and everybody has their own journey. Everybody has their own relationship with themselves internally, which it's our job as coaches to be like. Ok, you know, how does this person tick, how does this person respond? How does this person respond to criticism? How does this person respond to praise? How does this person respond to data? You know, and everybody has their own ideas of what success is for them. And these, you know, these people love these social media platforms and these people hate social media and these people hate all social media, and you know.  14:00 And these people hate social media, and these people hate all social media, and you know. And these people hate online casting sites and so on and so forth. So everybody has their own biases and tendencies and, as effective coaches, on both a performance level and a business and marketing level, you know it's our job to be able to navigate that, and that's why the single most important skill that every voiceover coach performance, business, marketing, tech or otherwise has to have is the ability to listen, which also is the same exact skill that every voice actor needs to be a successful, effective, relevant voice actor. So, if you're having a conversation with someone you're considering coaching with and you can't get a word in because they're talking about themselves or that one cartoon they did 30 years ago, or if it's all sell, sell, sell, that tells you something, because they are not asking you what your pain points are Sure.  14:53 - Anne (Host) Every good marketer Help you solve them.  14:55 - Tom (Guest) Exactly Every good marketer, whether it's a a commercial, tired of using this old mop this way. You know. That's identifying the pain point. If I used to use, I use this mop. This mop stinks. Go use this mop. This mop's great. If there isn't any kind of centered likes, any kind of back and forth, reciprocal. You know what are, what are you going through, what are what challenges have you? What are your struggles? Oh okay, well, based on this, this and this, I can help you with this, this and this, as opposed to some. You know old hack, who's just going to throw these stock scripts at you and you know in three lessons. And then you get your demo using the same scripts that everybody uses or a new hack, who you know?  15:32 - Anne (Host) there are new hacks we've seen a lot of those out there.  15:35 - Tom (Guest) I have noticed quite a few new hacks lately both in the performance and business and marketing categories.  15:42 - Anne (Host) I think also, when you talk about an industry that has evolved and changed so much and especially, you know, this year's been an interesting year I mean you've got changes in things outside of the industry that are affecting, you know, corporations and affecting people who advertise, and affecting the climate of what we do, and so that makes people scared to advertise Sometimes, it makes people scared to spend money. It makes, you know there's all sorts of things happening outside of our industry that affect our industry as well as you know. I mean what's happening in your own personal life as well as you know. I mean what's happening in your own personal life. So we talk about the necessity of performance coaching and business coaching, but there's also, believe it or not, there's something to be said for, you know, coaching of the mind and coaching to be a confident performer, a confident business person, somebody who can be competitive and negotiate in these times where it seems like everybody's vying for the same job, and so there's also mindset skills, I think, that are also valuable to be coached. I think, like you said it in the beginning, like a lifelong learner, I think we always have to be learning. We always have to be learning, and do we have to spend tons and tons of money doing it. No, not necessarily, but I do think that there's an investment there and I think it's something that you need to revisit.  17:08 If you did get coaching prior to your demo, maybe five years ago, and now maybe you need a new demo.  17:15 I personally think that everything needs a refresh and, you know, if you haven't coached in a while, I feel like having someone else's ears listen to you. If you haven't been booking why, why is that? Go to a trusted coach and have them listen to you and see if maybe you've fallen into some sort of a rut where maybe you're not delivering performance-wise I don't know a rut where maybe you're not delivering performance wise. Or, for example, when I spoke to the student yesterday who's like well, I haven't gotten a job yet, and I'm like OK, first of all, I'm looking at your website and you don't have downloadable demos. Your website, your demos, are five years old. You know there's lots of things that can contribute to not getting hired, and so I think that the coaching can. Yes, it's definitely investment, but again, remember, any business, you have investments and I think that again, more than ever, it is important to be educated and understand how you can evolve with the changing VO industry of today.  18:15 - Tom (Guest) I think what I agree with everything that you said wholeheartedly, on top of all, that all voice actors need to invest in empowerment. That is one of the biggest deficiencies that most aspiring voice actors have coming into the industry. They immediately, you know, disempower themselves. They immediately devalue themselves because they have this and this is a system of thought thing that I talk about all the time, Anne is that most people coming into the voice industry think that the industry is vertical, it's a ladder or a mountain and you have to climb it and as you climb it, you kick people in the face and knock them off the ladder or the mountain like it's some reality show and you go ha ha, I take your videos now.  19:01 Haha, I narrate them. You don't blah, blah. That's not how it works. I've always talked about how the voiceover industry is spherical and you're the center of your sphere and your job is to expand your sphere and empower yourself by including as many good humans in it as possible, both agents and managers and audio engineers and coaches and fellow voice actors and your accountant and your lawyer and your graphic designer or your social media manager or whoever to empower you so you can make the best decisions possible to expand that sphere and move your voiceover business forward.  19:36 So to work with an effective coach to be or just to be, just to be educating yourself in general is to empower you you know, on both a personal and a professional level, and the more that you can do that, the better chance you have of making those voiceover dreams come true.  19:55 - Anne (Host) I mean, and and speaking of, we always talk about, what are the red flags? What are the red flags right? How do we know a coach is worthy of my investment? Right, a coach, a business coach or performance coach? You know, I like to start with. First of all, let's let's talk about what it takes to get a good coach. I mean, what are the? What are the green flags Right? What? What do you look for in a good coach? What are some properties of a good coach? Would you?  20:22 - Tom (Guest) say you touched on this earlier. Reputation is definitely one. I mean there's the reputation of someone like a Jennifer Hale who holds the Guinness World Record for the most amount of video game characters ever recorded by a female. So there's a level of something that comes with that.  20:42 Jen also happens to be a great articulator and a great coach, but then there's other coaches that have done one character decades ago hasn't done much work since, and then that's the only thing that they hang their shingle and their reputation on this one character that they played a very, very long time ago. Shingle and their reputation on this one character that they played a very, very long time ago. Jennifer, like you and me and a bunch of our other coaching and voiceover friends are boots on the ground day to day, dare I say, in the trenches. Voice actors. We are working, we are auditioning and marketing and booking regularly. So I always say the first green flag for a good voiceover coach is to go to their voice actor website and go check that out.  21:26 See what they've got, see what they have done recently, see if their demos and YouTube Anne and playlists have been updated recently, check their IMDB profiles and see what work they have done. And layered on top of that, you know, as a voice actor, reputation, obviously, as a voiceover, coach, reputation, testimonials on the website, testimonials on social media platforms, conversations that people are having behind our back on various social media platforms or in subreddits or Discord servers or or facebook groups, like though that's some of the major. Those are two of the biggest green flags is the. You know, because you never know and there is no guarantee of any voice actor achieving any level of success, but you know your chances of empowerment will increase if you work with someone who knows what they're doing, has been doing it for a long time and is doing it today.  22:19 - Anne (Host) Yeah, exactly. So they have evolved over the evolution of the voiceover industry and so they know. They know what agents are looking for, they know what casting directors are looking for, they know what is relevant and current in the industry. So red flags on the other side.  22:38 - Tom (Guest) Well, the red flags are if they just started. There's a lot of voice actors or aspiring voice actors who do a couple of gigs and all of a sudden they hang out their shingle as a voiceover business coach and marketing coach, or performance coach. You and I see it all the time.  22:55 - Anne (Host) I think there has to be some longevity to it.  22:57 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, there needs to be some longevity to it. Yeah, there needs to be some longevity. Now. Everybody has to start somewhere, and you know someone who may turn out to be the greatest performance or business coach ever has to start somewhere, and start with one student.  23:12 And you know what I mean, but for those that haven't been in the industry for very long, that have little or no IMDB credits or have little or no samples on their voiceover website, all of a sudden they're a coach. Well, that's telling you something, and I've seen it from personal experience. People working, for example, with me get some business coaching from me and then a couple months later they're all of a sudden a business coach. And I'm like wait a minute, wait a minute, they never last.  23:38 - Anne (Host) Well, I always think they never last, though.  23:41 You know, for me it's always like and people say this all the time, right, you know the quick success, right, and I see it in. You know ads, in ads like, hey, you don't need expensive equipment or training to be a voice actor. And you know those are designed to sell the dream. And again we have to say it, you know, and it sounds like a broken record, but just if we reach just one person right and I always tell people like, honestly, it's a skill You're becoming an actor. I mean, that doesn't happen overnight. It is a marathon, not a sprint. It really is a marathon, and the people who are truly successful in this industry know that. And marathon by marathon, I'm not talking six months, I'm not talking three months, I'm not talking, I'm talking years, years of working in this industry and putting in the work, doing the auditions, getting the training. Those are the ones that become successful.  24:38 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely. This is a long-term investment. It's just like going to college, going to medical school, going to trade school going to vocational school.  24:49 It takes a long time to develop the skills and collect the tools, both literal, physical, microphone headphones, daw and the other business and marketing tools understanding how to write a business plan, how to create a marketing strategy, how to make long-term investments through blogging and social media, how to make short-term investments through auditioning on free casting sites and then developing your skills, and then maybe moving to pay-to-play casting sites which have higher quality, higher paying auditions and then using that to develop your skills to maybe then you're ready to submit to agents. There are things that have to happen in order. You know, a tomato can't grow until you plant the seed, water it and wait.  25:37 - Anne (Host) Right, exactly. Well, I love that because so many people are like well, I can't invest in another demo or more coaching until I make money in the industry. So, oh gosh, I wish I had a nickel for every time. Somebody said that to me and I'm like but it doesn't quite work like that In reality. You do have to make an initial upfront investment and it may take you a minute before you make that money back. And so you've got to get the skills developed in both running your business, establishing that you know, hanging out the shingle on your online website. There's money involved in that. There's money involved in you know setting up your business or getting you know good business coaching, advertising yourself. And there's, of course, money in performance wise being, you know, coached so that you're competitive.  26:26 In today's industry, you're competitive and doing well, and even the people who do, who are great performers. It's not always an immediate return on investment. I mean, gosh, I mean I've spoken to veterans out there. I mean you have to understand. You have to be in it long enough to understand that you're not going to get a commercial a day necessarily. I mean I don't know anybody that ever has, and that dream can't be sold to you. You really just have to be. I think you have to think what Malcolm? I always go back to Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours, really 10,000 hours of effort and you know to really start to see effective success. And then you evolve into growing into a better performer, a better actor, a better business person. Tom, if somebody's interested in it, how much would you say is when is a good time to invest? When do they take that step and say plunk down my money, here's my money, coach me.  27:37 - Tom (Guest) I would say what has to happen. I think the first thing that has to happen is that they have to invest in storytelling training first. Theater training, on-camera training, singing training, improv training, stand-up comedy training. Pick one of those disciplines.  27:52 - Anne (Host) But does that mean they have to spend money and go to an acting class? Not necessarily.  27:55 - Tom (Guest) I mean improv troops are free. You know open mic night is free. You know there's community theater is free. There's lots of places where they can develop that skill, because first they need to find out if they have that skill they don't want to be on stage.  28:09 - Anne (Host) That's why they're right. That's why they're doing it behind the mic. That's why right.  28:13 - Tom (Guest) So for those people. Right, and the thing about that is they need to find out if they have the ability, through the power of their voice, to engage and be engaging. If you can do that through those, then you can. Then that's when I think is a good time to start your VO training. Here's the other thing, Anne, is that you know. You mentioned briefly AI at the beginning of it. If you are better than AI when you're, you know when you're starting to invest in your training, you're not going to get anywhere.  28:42 - Anne (Host) And what's going to make the difference? And AI reads really well. So if you're nothing but a really pretty reader, yeah, you got no shot.  28:48 - Tom (Guest) You're not going to advance. That's why getting acting, theater, improv, stand up or singing training is going to already you're hitting the ground running by already being better than AI when you're, once you're ready for your VO training. That's why I think you should really start that way.  29:02 - Anne (Host) Yeah, One thing I do want to stress is that my coaching has gone. It was always been acting based. I mean it starts with acting based. So for those people who've never taken acting course, I always I always recommend that they take an acting course anyway, because there's a subtle difference between acting in front of other people or acting with people and then acting behind the mic, and it's nice to have that 360 degree view of all the aspects of the acting. And a good coach will teach you voice acting and not just here's a script, here's how and direct you to a sound that would sound good on a demo, really, and that's why I concentrate. I'm almost obsessed with personally training people to be good actors, because that's going to last them so much longer than just a directed demo. Right, Because if any good director can direct you to a good demo, really it's.  29:55 You know they can give you the read that people are looking for and then you can have a great demo. But then, all of a sudden, when you're asked to produce that or you're trying to audition and you're wondering why you're not booking the jobs, that's because you haven't established the basic skills, the basic acting skills required. Definitely, investment is not just in a voice acting coach, but, yes, in, I think, acting classes, improv classes. All of that can help. All of that can help.  30:21 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely. It's just going to make you that much better, that much faster and that much better of a decision maker than AI, because the real skill, when it comes to true performance, is not about what impressions you can do is can you make strong acting choices quickly, right, right, right. And if you can do that when the client says, hey, abc. That for me, and you can do is can you make strong acting choices quickly, right, right, right. And if you can do that when the client says, hey, abc that for me, and you can give them three takes with different emphasis and different motivations and different levels of engagement.  30:47 That's what's going to get you ahead of the pack.  30:50 - Anne (Host) And honestly, it's one of those things that you have to understand that if you're looking, if you happen to just be getting in this industry and you watch social media, be careful with that, because a lot of what happens on social media is all the positive things, all the hey I booked the gig but I can't tell you about it, or the illusion that you know people are successful, because you know it takes a very special person to be on social media and say, oh gosh, I didn't nail it and I'm so upset Because a lot of times, well, first of all, if it's something that's under NDA, we can't really talk about it anyways.  31:28 But if you give the illusion or you're looking at other people that are giving the illusion that they're successful and making tons of money and they just started or they didn't do it this way, there's multiple ways to be successful in voiceover and there are some people that would say you don't necessarily need coaching. Honestly, I don't buy into that, but I think at some point everybody needs to have that extra ear, hearing them or giving them some sort of education about it, whether it could be a manager, it could be a talent agent. It doesn't have to be an actual voiceover coach, but somebody that's giving you feedback so that you can then take that feedback and improve. Do what you need to educate and improve yourself.  32:12 - Tom (Guest) I think you touched upon something very critical which is one of the most important skills is the ability to self-direct and with COVID wiping out all in-person auditions, at least here in New York City, and for most voice actors, almost 100% of their actual bookings are going to be taking place at home, not being directed. Then you need to learn how to listen to yourself objectively when it comes to pace and tone and inflection and sibilance and regionalisms and mic placement and breath control and, obviously, performance choices. That you should be able to learn how to hear yourself and adjust accordingly, because if you can't do that, you can't be an effective voice actor.  32:58 - Anne (Host) That's a process being able to self-direct, it's being able to develop an ear. An ear doesn't happen overnight, typically, it just doesn't. It's hard for people to actually hear themselves without actually hearing how they sound and to evaluate themselves as an actor. So it is tough. Themselves as an actor. So it is tough. And it does take, I think, a lot of I'm going to say a lot of practice, a lot of you know, auditions, a lot of failing, a lot of just going oh shoot, what could I have done wrong? Or maybe feedback, and so, yeah, there's a lot to that. I mean, gosh, we could just go on all day. But guys, again, you know we're both coaches. Of course we'd love it if you coach with us, but just know that it's valuable. It's valuable in today's voiceover industry to have another set of ears, to have a trusted coach, somebody. That's what they do. They've been established in the business that is guiding you along this career, which, again, is a marathon not a sprint. Good discussion, tom, yeah.  33:57 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Good discussion All right, tom.  33:58 - Anne (Host) Yeah, good discussion. All right guys. I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can network and connect like bosses, like real bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  34:13 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by a very special guest, Aisha Manrique, a distinguished voice talent and coach whose voice resonates across the Caribbean and beyond. In this illuminating conversation, they explore the unique landscape of the Caribbean voiceover industry, where talent must build their careers through hustle and intentional branding. Aisha shares her inspiring journey, from being "divinely called" to the industry to becoming the voice of Disney.

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by the incomparable Melique Berger, a true icon in the voiceover world with over 50 years of acting experience. In this powerful conversation, they explore the central truth of the industry: a voice actor must be an actor first.  

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by her lovely co-host, Danielle Famble, for the Boss Money Talk Series. The BOSSes tackle a fundamental challenge of a voiceover freelance career: managing inconsistent income. Drawing from her past job experiences, Danielle shares practical wisdom on how to budget, save, and build a financial cushion. This conversation redefines "budgeting" as a tool for empowerment and offers a strategic roadmap for every voice actor to take control of their finances, ensure stability, and thrive.   00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey guys, are you ready to achieve those dreams? With MyLife Transformation coaching services, I can help you reach your full potential. Don't let fear and uncertainty hold you back. Take control of your life today. Visit anneganguzza.com to get started.  00:20 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:39 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss Podcast and the Boss Money Talk Series. I'm Anne Ganguzza and I am here with my lovely co-host, Danielle Famble.  00:49 - Danielle (Guest) Hey Anne, hello Danielle, hey, hey, how you doing, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.  00:53 - Anne (Host) Well, I am glad to have you back and I have a topic for discussion today, because I've had, on more than one occasion, some students recently talk to me about gosh. I'm just having a hard time finding work and I don't know if I should continue to stay in this industry because it's just getting too hard. I mean to sustain it, and so what should I do? It would be a worthy topic of discussion to talk about, like this particular industry and how we handle our financial situation in times of inconsistency, because it's just a known fact, guys, bosses out there, it is an inconsistent, it is part of being an entrepreneur. Our, our income is inconsistent. So what do we do and how do we budget for those times when maybe it's slow or, you know, when it's not slow, and what do we do when we have inconsistent income?  01:55 - Danielle (Guest) That's such a good question. That's a big part of being a boss, being an entrepreneur and being in this business, and it's good to give the perspective one you know to your students that you're coaching and to anyone listening. You're not alone. It doesn't mean that you're a bad voice actor. It doesn't mean that you're bad at this business. That is the nature of what it is, that we do, and so it has nothing to do with you or your worth or the fact that you're not good. Slow months happen all the time. It happens to the best of us.  02:24 - Anne (Host) And you know, I think it's really something a point worth mentioning is I've been in this industry about 18 years and it's always inconsistent, like there's not been a year where it hasn't been inconsistent. So it is something that I think, if you plan correctly and you're prepared for, it doesn't come as a surprise and it's something that you can absolutely continue to grow and build your business through oh, totally Inconsistent income. So, as long as you plan and strategize, yeah, and you just know this is normal.  02:56 - Danielle (Guest) This has not got anything to do with you. This is a normal thing, you know. It reminds me of I don't know if you know this, anne, but I used to be a waitress for a long, long time. I was a waitress at comedy clubs and the way that I made my money was on tips, and so I got used to living on an inconsistent income and realizing that there's going to be a couple of days or weeks or months where it's going to be great and then it's going to be slow. Maybe you get cut because it's so slow that they don't need you to be there. But you know, the thing that didn't get cut was my fixed expenses, my rent, my cell phone bill, all of those things.  03:35 So I would say to those are stable. Yeah, figure out what your stable expenses are and make sure that you can keep that as your base and plan for your base Anything on top of that. You know when times are great and when you're making a lot more money, you can use that to keep it to the side for a buffer, but really just know what your base expenses are, which then goes back to our longstanding conversation about knowing your numbers and the data and everything else. If you're too afraid to look at what your expenses are, you're not going to know what your base is that you need to be able to maintain at all times. So really like have the courage, look at what are your expenses that are fixed, that are stable, and know what your base is, and you want to be able to hit your base every single month.  04:22 - Anne (Host) So then, budget around your worst month, not your best month. Yeah, absolutely Right. And and that and the and the numbers on your worst month can can actually like I. I mean, I could say what are your expenses and your worst month would be you didn't make anything. Budget around that. That's what I would say. Right, that's your worst case scenario, and so you'll still need to be able to function. And so what does that mean in terms of if I don't make any income for an entire month, does that mean I should give up my voiceover business, danielle?  04:54 - Danielle (Guest) I don't think so, but I do think that you do need to have some way of knowing that there is income coming in from another form. So maybe it's not the income coming in from your voiceover business, because you didn't make anything that month but you do have a nine to five or you do have a babysitting job or you do have. You know, you do Uber on the weekends or what have you. Just know that there needs to be, that money needs to be coming in from somewhere else. If it's not coming in from somewhere else, then we need to find how can we get to our first dollar. Is it in voiceover? Is it in another way of making money? But make sure that you know that there is some income coming in so that, even if the income from your voiceover business is at zero for the month, you know that there is income coming in from somewhere else that's going to be able to offset and still hit your baseline goal.  05:43 - Anne (Host) And I think your budget right for those months you don't live on that budget. I mean it should be a budget for a budget that is a low-income month, not necessarily like I'm going to continue to go to Starbucks every morning or I'm going to. Maybe that's a necessity, maybe you feel like that's worked into your bare necessities, but is that something that you're willing to give up in a low-income month? Or is going out to dinner? I think that's the biggest one. I think, like my husband and I are like okay, we got to stop going out to dinner, right, because that's an unnecessary expense. If we're trying to tighten our budget during a low-income month, it's mostly like oh, and we're going to go out and spend money doing this, or are we going to go out and spend money doing that? A lot of times it's based around food. Why is that?  06:25 - Danielle (Guest) Yeah, I mean, that's mine as well. It's food, but then sometimes it's you know, if you're going to be spending additional money on things in your business, maybe it's that you forego coaching for the next couple of months because you don't really have the money for that, or maybe you need to forego some other things in your business and subscriptions that maybe can be paused. It's not just what you're doing in your life, it's also things that you can cut back in your business too, so that you can make sure that you know. You know, I know that my fixed expenses for the operations of me are this these are the things that will you know, that are always going to stay the same my housing, food, you know, basic necessities, business expenses.  07:10 - Anne (Host) Business expenses as well, I'm going to say rocket money. I had a free trial and I used it. It's great for finding out those recurring monthly expenses that you have that all of a sudden like oh, that Sirius XM like subscription that I have for my car, which I don't drive very often because I work from home, right, but now I can play SiriusXM everywhere, but still that subscription costs, and it used to only cost like $12.99. Now it's like $25 a month, and so that can help you keep track of those subscriptions that creep up on you that you may or may not be utilizing.  07:44 - Danielle (Guest) And everything is a subscription nowadays, so really you have to. It's so sneaky, but you can find a lot of unused subscriptions and then you can recoup some of that money back just by saying no, thank you to those subscriptions.  07:59 - Anne (Host) Think about your Starbucks as a subscription. That's true, really, if it's something you do every day, I mean really. I mean I know there's a lot of people that that's a daily habit, and you know. Think of that as a subscription. And one other thing I wanted to mention, and I would not have even thought of this really until I incorporated and became an S Corp but I am required to pay myself a salary, right, and that's something that you know.  08:22 When you're trying to like skimp on your, your budget, or you're trying to figure out your expenses, don't forget you need money to live, you need money to buy the groceries, you need money to pay the rent you need, and so I think it's always a good idea, even if you're not an S-corp, to really kind of think about here's the money coming in. A portion of that should be set aside for my expenses, for me, right, that's my salary, and then pay yourself on a set schedule. I think that helps you really get an idea as to okay, here's the money I need to live on, here's the money that's profiting in my business. I don't know. It's just one of those things that maybe it's worth it to take a look at.  09:03 - Danielle (Guest) Absolutely. That should be a core staple that everyone should be doing is you know we're doing this. We're in business to make a profit, and so the idea is I need to get paid, and making sure that you pay yourself first so that you are getting used to, and your business is getting used to, that expense of making sure you're paid. That's the study and that's actually how you can stay steady is okay. I know that I'm going to be paying myself a certain amount every single month. That is the expense of my business to pay me, but that's also how I'm able to pay my bills, keeping that steady, and it doesn't need to be that you wait until you are an S-Corp to do that. I would say try to start doing that as quickly as possible. Once you have established the fact that you're doing this business, you're in business.  09:51 - Anne (Host) I would not have realized that until you know I really started an S-Corp and I should have actually. Again, I needed to take a look at the numbers.  09:59 - Danielle (Guest) Here's the deal when you do have those lean months, it doesn't come as such a shock no-transcript Because if you wait, that is going to be a surprise likely to you where you're not really expecting it. And then you get into a really unfortunate situation where this inconsistent income has caused an inconsistent pattern in how you're paying yourself and how you're putting money to the side. So make sure that when you're paying yourself you're also making sure to take care of your tax liabilities.  11:01 - Anne (Host) Yes, Excellent idea. And another thing, as I look at you here in your brand new, shiny, sparkly studio, right and we've talked about this so many times before is having that financial cushion, right, Having that emergency fund. But I think honestly, like, if you can have more than just that emergency fund, which doesn't get touched under the extreme circumstances of an emergency, but consider having another fund which is, you know, just a one to three cushion fund, right, Right that you have to live in the event that you have a slow month, right, and having that separate fund where you feel secure and confident that you can take from that fund and you're not dipping into that emergency fund. Because I always feel guilty if I'm dipping into my emergency fund. Well, number one, because my emergency fund is heavily invested in my high-yield savings account, which doesn't mean that you can't have a one to three-month cushion also sitting in a high-yield savings account, and so I always feel like, oh, I don't want to touch that because I want to keep earning interest on the greatest amount of money possible Sure yeah.  12:06 And so that's my emergency fund, but also maybe having a separate fund just for, oh, times are lean this month and you know, and I'm going to say, maybe, in order to give me better mental health, I do need a Starbucks today or I do need a pair of earrings today. But I'm going to be a caution. I'm going to caution people to not necessarily go out and shop your, your financial worries away, because you know, that's me. I've definitely been in that trap where, oh, I just need to feel better. Let me go out and buy some new clothes, yeah, or a new lipstick, yeah.  12:41 I think try not to do that. But you know, I think that one to three month other fund that you have will help you to pay the bills.  12:47 - Danielle (Guest) Absolutely. And so then you can use sort of a system where you're making sure that when things are inconsistent and times are a little bit leaner and you're not making as much money, you know what your baseline, your core base expenses are. And then, when things are going really well and you're making a lot more money and you had a really great month, you put some of that money to the side in that cushion fund that's not your emergency fund and when things are low, you use that cushion fund to make sure that you're staying afloat. I like that sort of cycle of making sure that you are taking care of yourself. It's not necessarily feast or famine when things are going really well.  13:28 You have already looked ahead and taken care of yourself, because you know that this is a cyclical business, this is inconsistent. It's an inconsistent income kind of business and you know that one day you're going to need to use the money that you are currently making. Don't just spend everything that you're making. Put it to the side so that when it is inconsistent and when it is a slower month, you're pulling from the times when you had a really great month to keep yourself, you know, in balance. And that's, I think, the way to do it is you should look at this month or any given month, as am I taking care of me now, or am I taking care of me now and me in the future? But always make sure that you are doing that delicate balance.  14:16 - Anne (Host) Speaking of, you know, setting aside money for taxes, and setting aside, you know, that money. Don't forget about retirement guys. Don't forget about a retirement fund. Please don't forget about retirement. One thing I want to say is that and I'm not a money girl, right, or I never thought of myself as a money girl, but can I just tell you, the software companies are making it easier and easier. Like your credit cards are now categorizing your spending, right, Because, of course, they want you to use the credit card more. So they're going to categorize it and you can find out where your expenses are going, and if you use the credit card, you can get 3% back. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. They want to encourage credit card spending, but also you can use that as a method for really finding out where is all your money going.  14:57 Quickbooks like I never thought. Like my QuickBooks Online. Like you can generate a report literally a report in a matter of seconds, Whereas before it used to be really difficult, man, If you were doing like spreadsheets. And I don't know, Danielle, I can't remember what product you use, but I mean I need something simple, something that does the work for me. Some people are really hardcore and go right into the Excel spreadsheet and that's how they track their budget. But, like for me, I just generate, I flip, I generate a report really quickly in QuickBooks and it tells me, oh my gosh, I spent so much money this month on my expenses going out versus what was coming in, and so I can really then make an educated and strategized decision based upon those reports.  15:39 And I can do, I can generate those reports at the flick of a button. And even if I hate finances right which I know a lot of people don't like to look at their, their money yeah, it's again one of those things. This is your business and it is something that, if you're not looking at it, pay somebody else to do it, like my accountant. Then talk with your accountant and say, hey, look, where's all my money going. Or I found that I had a slow month. And then have that weekly meeting or that monthly meeting that says here, OK, they can break it down for you and say, look, you're, they can generate the reports and they say, look, here's what you're spending on lipstick and or here's what you're spending on restaurants going out, and here's where you can maybe potentially save money. Or think about taking this money that you have left over and putting it into this type of an investment account.  16:23 - Danielle (Guest) This money that you have left over and putting it into this type of an investment account and taking care of future you.  16:29 So you've got sort of the shorter term future you of this one to three months cushion for when times are lean. You've got your emergency fund, which usually I say you know, six to eight months I say closer to for me, yeah, six to eight months, which is a pretty big emergency fund, but that's because we're self-employed and so I want to have a pretty good cushion, or the longer term fund being your retirement. And there are ways, depending on how you have it set up, where, if you're investing in your retirement account, that helps you in tax time because it might lower the amount that you are paying on your taxes.  17:05 So it is always forward looking. It's looking at what's happening today and it's looking at what would be happening in the shorter term future or longer term future. And how can you use the windfall that you have or maybe are not experiencing now? How can you use that to keep you afloat, you know, with your core base expenses. But it really is again going back to do. You know what those core base expenses are Right, and how can you stay, you know, level with them. And if you need to dip into the bank of you, then you can do that with no shame and no problem, knowing that you've already done the work to take care of yourself.  17:44 - Anne (Host) From a girl that's a little less of a money girl to a girl who is a money girl. One thing that always sneaks up on me are those antics annual fees or the recurring right subscriptions or that come up once a year. Because I went from let's not do it every month, let's save and let's do yearly subscriptions, but every once in a while, if I'm not paying attention, that yearly subscription will come up and it'll be taken out of my account and I'll be like whoa, how do you do you prepare yourself? I do For those things. So talk about how you prepare you know some of those things.  18:18 - Danielle (Guest) you know we use the word like surprise expenses, when, like it's kind of like these are super noble things, like yeah, I signed up for that credit card that has that high annual fee.  18:27 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It was me.  18:28 - Danielle (Guest) It wasn't like some, somebody impersonating me Right large expense, that is, a knowable expense. I typically will put a calendar alert in a month in advance so that I can remind myself that this is coming. For example, my credit cards. I have the American Express Platinum card, I have the American Express Gold card and they have very high annual fees and for some reason I applied for them around the same time of the year and different years. So they, the annual fees, they come and they hit like roughly, like right, one after the other and I always think to myself Danielle, what did you do?  19:05 Why did you do that? Why did you do that? Why did what were you doing in December that you really needed a new credit? Why did you do that right in the same time. And that's, you know, my own personal journey. But I know that it's coming, so I can prepare either a little bit every single month to make sure I'm ready for that, yeah, or because I've given myself that calendar alert saying hey, danielle, just so you know this is coming up next month, I'm already mentally and financially prepared that that hit is about to happen. Most of those, you know, those subscriptions, those annual subscriptions, those are things that are knowable expenses, albeit big expenses. So your calendar is your very best friend. Give yourself the heads up and know that it's coming.  19:49 - Anne (Host) I agree I live by my calendar anyway for a day-to-day schedule of things that I'm doing. And I think if you have a calendar, a financial calendar, I mean my goodness. I mean you could make an easy financial calendar. I use Google Calendar for everything and they're color-coded when do I have coaching sessions? When do I have monthly workouts coming up, when do I have all of these things, holidays and that sort of thing, so you could have a financial calendar that has all of your subscription renewals and or your monthly costs, like those base costs that we talked about, so that you're prepared.  20:25 This month I'm going to plan on spending this amount of money. And also, again, it's one of those things that if you have an accounting software that can be generated in an accounting software easily, your monthly budget, absolutely, and you know it's something that you need to like. And again, I'm talking from a girl. I'm not a money girl, but I have to force myself to do that and take a hard look at what's going out every month and how can I cut? And I recently just said, ok, how can I trim the budget in my company, because I had been like, oh, let me try this software. I'm a big risk taker Danielle, and we talk about this thing, I hoard software too.  21:04 Yeah, I buy software subscriptions, I try things out and then I forget about them sometimes right.  21:10 I was like, oh, I haven't used it. I tried that out, I paid for the subscription, I forgot about it. So every once in a while I have to revisit what am I putting my money into, and has it given me a return on my investment? And if not, I need to trim the fat. And so I really I did that more recently so that I could have money to invest in something different.  21:31 So again I had, and I invest in in people who who work for me, and again I wanted to invest in some additional advertising, and so I needed to get that money from somewhere Right. So I had to kind of figure out where can I consolidate my expenses Right? Can I get, now that you know I've evolved in my business so many years, maybe I don't need this particular, I don't need as much social media, maybe I don't need, you know, that monthly subscription to this particular? You know, pay to play. Am I really using this pay to play?  22:07 And again, you know, figure out what am I? Where's my money coming in? Where am I making the most of my money? And do I want to reinvest my money coming in into that, into getting more of that, or do I want to reinvest my money coming in into that, into getting more of that, or do I want to diversify and maybe explore another genre of voiceover, or I want to get more voiceover work in this particular genre? What's it going to take for me to get there? So I think, really again taking a look at the money, and if you hate looking at money, I suggest, even if you hate looking at money, it's something that you got to do. Consider it an education in running your own business.  22:40 - Danielle (Guest) I would consider, if you hate looking at money, that you really need to look at money.  22:46 - Anne (Host) If you don't like it, then you really need to do it If you don't like it, that's a flag.  22:50 - Danielle (Guest) That's a flag, that's a flag. Run toward it, run toward it.  22:55 - Anne (Host) I love it.  22:55 - Danielle (Guest) I was told by my financial advisor to have money dates with myself, and I think what you're talking about would be a really great thing to do twice a year of these sinking funds, these mini emergency fund or emergency fund, so that you know where you need to divert more of your money in the good months, in the months where you're making so much more money than you planned for. That's really a great thing to do and I would say once or twice a year to reevaluate that, because maybe your one to three month or your short term emergency fund, let's say, is about a couple thousand dollars under. So you know. Ok, you know what. Why don't I put my money and my focus on beefing that up so that when we have these inconsistent months or when we have lower months, I know that I'm good. You won't know until you take the time to really look at it. So give yourself the money date of taking a real look at your money and knowing your numbers about what is your core expenses, what can you maybe trim or what can you press pause on, and then what can you run toward when it's time and when you have the money for it.  24:18 I love the idea of sinking funds. You have a fund specifically for your education, for your just slower months, for things that you do when you book that really big job and maybe you want to take yourself on a nice you know nice dinner or something like that like ways to celebrate. You can have multiple of these sinking funds. That's what something like that, like ways to celebrate. You can have multiple of these, these sinking funds. That's what I like about some of these online accounts where you can have a bank account that will give you an unlimited number of smaller, you know, virtual accounts where you can just put that money to the side I love that that's great.  24:52 - Anne (Host) It's a really great hack that I use.  24:54 That's a new concept and and what I like.  24:57 What I like about how you're talking and you're phrasing this whole conversation is you're talking about funds, right, you're talking about fund accounts, yeah, versus when, when and I don't know if this is just me and my age, but, like whenever I was talked about, well, you need to set up a budget that had a negative connotation and that meant that I wasn't making the money that I should have been making, or I was. You know what I mean? I was somehow lacking in whatever, mostly in money, right, I was lacking in money and the ability to either manage my money or whatever it was, but it had a negative connotation and I think that we need to reframe that whole concept. Again, if we talk about, like, money blocks, right, it could be a form of a money block and, in reality, the term budget, you can rephrase it to say you know, your money funds or your fund account it's giving you more of like a permission to celebrate it because you are strategizing, you are creating a future with a purpose, yes, and your purpose is focused, strategized and smart.  26:03 - Danielle (Guest) Absolutely, and it's purposeful. It's what you've decided that you're going to do. So budgeting for me, when I think about it, it's what am I deciding that I'm going to be spending my money on and this money is allocated towards that thing that I already decided. If you take away the concept that a budget is restricting you, it's not restricting you. It's where you have already pre-purposed and pre-determined where your money is going to go, and then you just do as you set out. It gives you freedom and it puts you in the driver's seat. You decided that you want to spend your money on the Starbucks or your whatever, and isn't that what we?  26:44 - Anne (Host) yeah, Exactly, Isn't that what we decided? Bosses right, we are in the driver's seat. We are the boss Totally, and you know you need to be the boss of all aspects of this business. And I think, if you really take a look at your budgets and or your funding accounts and I love what you just said about the virtual accounts there, Danielle that's a concept that I actually was not aware of, so now I'm going to be researching that because I love that, I love being able to it's like my content buckets for social media, right? This?  27:15 is going to be my fund buckets for Ann's Lipstick, no, for my business. Right For that Starbucks account. I've got money in it. So I think that really gives us a much clearer strategy and purpose when really looking at our business. And again, you always want to go forward and move forward in your business and this is one way that you guys can get there Totally.  27:38 - Danielle (Guest) You are in the driver's seat. These are not things happening to you. You can make the decision as to where you spend your money when it comes, and if you need to dip into the bank of you so that you future you is taken care of, because the you of today did the work to make sure that they were taking care of future. You Love that. That's. What I love about being an entrepreneur is that I'm taking responsibility for myself and taking care of responsibility of myself today and also future me, by putting money into the spending buckets or to the sinking funds, to my retirement account, to my emergency fund, and then I am making these financial decisions with me in mind, because that's my job is to take care of myself and also the people that are around me that I touch with my business, with my life, with my purpose.  28:32 - Anne (Host) And with that lovely words of wisdom, danielle, I'm going to thank you so much. What a great conversation. Yeah, this is a great conversation. Love it, love it, love it. Bosses, I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and network like the money boss that Danielle is. I absolutely love it. I love, love, loved our conversation. Thank you again, bosses. Have an amazing week and we will see you next week. Bye.  28:58 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

BOSS Anne Ganguzza is joined by Lau Lapides for a discussion on the most fundamental skill for a successful voice actor: storytelling. From breaking out of a predictable melody to using props and sensory cues, Anne and Lau provide actionable tips and acting techniques to help you bring authenticity, emotion, and life to every script.

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by Tom Dheere to tackle a topic many voice actors fear most: marketing. In this episode, they break down the essential difference between direct marketing (you go to them) and indirect marketing (they come to you). The hosts discuss how to make both strategies work for you, offering a powerful, actionable roadmap for building a sustainable voiceover business. 00:01 - Anne (Host) Hey boss listeners. Are you ready to turn your voiceover career goals into achievements? With my personalized coaching and demo production, I'm here to help you reach new milestones. You know you're already part of a boss community that strives for the very best. Let's elevate that. Your success is my next project. Find out more at anneganguzza.com.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:44 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Real Boss series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with Mr Tom Dheere. Hello, hello, hello, the Real Boss, Tom Dheere.  00:56 - Tom (Guest) Hi, I'm seeing the light ring in my glasses. I'm going to change. I want to change these.  01:01 - Anne (Host) Wait, I thought you said I'm seeing the light.  01:03 - Tom (Guest) I'm seeing the light. Well, yeah, no, but the light was seeing me and my glasses, so I'm switching over. I have, like different pairs of glasses for where I'm at.  01:11 - Anne (Host) No, really. So like these are better. I hear that. I hear that Yours are part of a marketing strategy.  01:18 - Tom (Guest) Mine are purely because my eyeballs are decomposing. I can hear them.  01:22 - Anne (Host) But me too, though, I need them as well, and I figure I might as well make them part of a marketing strategy. And speaking of marketing, yes. Great segue, isn't it? I think it's one of the most feared things for any voice actor is to actually think and do marketing, and so it's a great topic to talk about, because, I mean, we could talk like multiple podcasts about it, but let's talk about marketing Indirect marketing, direct marketing. They're both important.  01:49 - Tom (Guest) Yes, absolutely.  01:50 - Anne (Host) Let's distinguish the difference.  01:52 - Tom (Guest) Right, and this is the thing that when most people come into the voiceover industry, they think and their instinct is correct, so I need to market myself. What does that mean? For most people, it's slamming into social media sideways and talking about what they had for breakfast, or it most often means cold calls and cold emails. Now, you can clearly lump all of that stuff together into marketing, but there's a lot more to it. It's a lot more nuanced than that.  02:18 - Anne (Host) You say the word cold calls and I think people go cold. I know they do. They're like oh no cold calls now.  02:25 - Tom (Guest) So the way I talk about it is that there is direct marketing and then there is indirect marketing, also known as active marketing or passive marketing. So direct or active marketing is when you are seeking out specific potential clients and you are basically grabbing them by the lapels and saying, hey, you give me money to say stuff out loud.  02:48 - Anne (Host) Here I am. Hello, this is me.  02:50 - Tom (Guest) Hello, right Now that's a cold call, that is a cold email. There's also follow-up emails and getting your seven touches.  02:57 - Anne (Host) And that's direct, because it's direct contact with a potential client.  03:01 - Tom (Guest) Exactly. And then there is indirect marketing, which is where you're kind of like doing your thing over here in hopes that people or robots will notice you Right and come to you Right. So, for example, working on search engine optimization on your website, that's a form of indirect marketing or passive marketing, because if somebody's searching for you, hopefully your website or your content will rank higher on Google, bing, yahoo and they'll be like, hey, who's this person? And then they reach out to you Right.  03:30 - Anne (Host) Or they're seeing you on social media.  03:32 - Tom (Guest) Social media, exactly, is another perfect example of indirect marketing. So that's where you're kind of like demonstrating your value, your progress, your humanity as a voice actor and a person, in hopes that it will get voice seekers' attention and be engaged with your content and hopefully you'll stay top of mind for future projects.  03:50 - Anne (Host) An easy I would say an easy way of thinking about it is direct marketing. You go to them In direct marketing. They're coming to you.  03:58 - Tom (Guest) Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right.  04:00 - Anne (Host) I think, equally terrifying for voice actors yes, yes, I think that it's great that we made the distinction now between the two.  04:09 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) And.  04:09 - Anne (Host) I think the one that really causes people probably the most terror is the direct marketing part of it, because they have to reach out to someone who is a complete stranger to them and that we are a complete stranger to them and they're a complete stranger to us. And so direct marketing, I think, requires, I think, a little more knowledge, so it makes it a little less scary.  04:29 - Tom (Guest) I think so too.  04:36 - Anne (Host) That's the way I see it, and what I try to explain to a lot of my students who talk about marketing and their fear of marketing is, of course, all the indirect methods, which they're probably much more apt to do, because they can create a blog, they can go on social media, they can create a video, they can do things like that, and that to them, I think, is more of a concrete path than oh my God, I got to go find someone. Who do I reach out to, what do I say and how does that work? And so I think the first distinction that I want to make with direct marketing is to make it less terrifying. Is that I want to make with direct marketing is to make it less terrifying is just an understanding that people have needs. How many times can I bring up the Chanel lipstick, right?  05:09 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) How many times it's a great example.  05:10 - Anne (Host) I just keep going back to it where here's the Chanel lipstick. It is part of my brand and I want to work with this company, chanel, and so ultimately, they don't know who I am. I mean, I kind of know who they are, but I don't know exactly who I should contact. And so when does Chanel have a need for voiceover? Right, when they have a campaign, right when they have a campaign and when maybe they have a voiceover and they want to replace that voice, and so it's very much based on need and when they need voiceover, a voiceover.  05:41 It's not that. Oh, I'm going to reach out and I never heard back and therefore that's a bad lead or it didn't work or I'm done. I failed. You cannot think that, guys, because it's all on a timely basis, so when I need a new lipstick, I'm not constantly searching for a new lipstick, but when I need one, then if an email comes my way or a social media ad comes my way talking about a new shade of red, I'll be like, oh, I need that, let me look into it.  06:10 And that's the same thing that, as a voice actor, you need to understand about direct marketing.  06:14 - Tom (Guest) Right, put it another way. And what are the client's pain points? How can you cure what ails them? How can you solve their problems? So I'm going to take your Chanel lipstick example and I'm going to continue it. So let's put it in voiceover terms Chanel wants to advertise that lipstick. So they want to make advertisements of some sort. It could be print, it could be digital, it could be TV, radio streaming or whatever. Right, chanel?  06:42 - Anne (Host) Look to me, Chanel. I talk about you all the time. I'm just saying In my podcast Please make Anne a compensated endorser for your lovely products.  06:51 - Tom (Guest) So Chanel usually would have to hire a marketing agency or an ad firm or something like that to come up with whatever. The concept would be. Okay, well, this is Chanel, it's this type of lipstick, we're targeting this type of audience, or they?  07:04 have it in-house or they have it in-house and they'll say, okay, well, our demographic is women of this particular age range.  07:19 Okay, so we need to make sure that the content and context of the advertisement is making sure that we're targeting that particular demographic.  07:22 It needs to appeal to them on a visual or an auditory level or some other combination of that. Maybe we need to get an influencer in here or a celebrity or something like that, but we still need a voice actor to do whatever the radio or streaming or TV is. So they come up with a concept, they write the script. Now they need to get a production company to turn this script into reality and then the production company now this is where they have choices. They can go to a casting director and a casting director and the casting director can then reach out to agents and managers to find the voice actors. They can post that casting notice on a casting site like a Voice 123 or a VO Planet or a Badalgo, or they can have their own roster of voice actors that every time a casting notice comes up, they go through their own list of voice actors. That every time a casting notice comes up, they go through their own list of voice actors and then send the casting notices out to the appropriate voice actors to collect auditions right.  08:12 - Anne (Host) Before you continue, I'm going to intercept and say all right, let's talk about how often do they need this right? That is something that is the big unknown right. How often are they needing a new campaign? And that is something that I think is the most ambiguous, maybe, to the voice actor, because we don't know we don't work for the company, we don't know how often they need these new ads. So what I don't want people to expect, and I think what a lot of people do expect, is like well, I reached out to them and they don't want me. Well, they don't have a need for you Yet. Yeah, and I don't think it's appropriate to think that any one company needs a voice actor 24-7.  08:48 - Tom (Guest) Unless you're Joseph Riano.  08:50 - Anne (Host) But that's a different genre, right. That's promo, that's a different genre, that's promo and that's actually a network right.  08:55 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Right.  08:55 - Anne (Host) That, yeah, you're required to do these ads because things change all the time. Chanel lipstick how often are they coming up with new colors? How often are they coming up with new colors? There's seasons, right? How often are they coming up with new lipsticks? Right? That is not necessarily a daily. Companies don't come out with new products every single day, so therefore they may not have a need. So please keep that in mind, guys, because I think a lot of people get discouraged when they don't hear back. Marketing is the long haul. It's a marathon, not a sprint.  09:21 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, getting auditions from your agents and managers and getting auditions from online casting sites. Those are short term. There's an audition right now. You audition for it right now Because they've had a need Right. Using direct and indirect marketing strategies is a long-term investment in developing relationships with clients Big distinction. A lot of people argue oh, agents are better than this and this is better than that, and none of that is true.  09:46 All of it's extremely subjective, based on the genres of voiceover that you want to do and the marketing methods and comfort level that you have with technology and interpersonal stuff. Like some people will be like I'll make cold calls all day. I love doing it. And some people are like I'm terrified of talking to people. I will only post stuff on social media and I will only talk about in a very narrow way and all of that is fine. But to Anne's point. Well, first off, we're thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about us.  10:13 - Anne (Host) Oh my God, yes, amen, amen. That is so very true, because we want to be hired by them.  10:19 - Tom (Guest) Right, of course, and to Anne's point, they don't need any voiceover for a product or service or brand at this moment in time, and when they do, it may not necessarily be you and a lot of the times they don't have any control over the product or service or brand and what the demands there are from the end client or the ad agency or the marketing firm or the campaign that dictates the quality and quantity of the demographics of the voice actors that they're needed for that particular campaign. Right, and with a campaign that dictates the quality and quantity of the demographics of the voice actors that they're needed for that particular campaign.  10:48 - Anne (Host) Right, and with a campaign, typically they want to have, like in any kind of a brand, consistency right. Typically, if there's a product and you're the voice of that product or that brand, it typically is something that will be recurring for a certain amount of time. It's not like today's ad is going to feature my voice and tomorrow it's going to feature somebody else's voice. They want to work in a little bit of consistency for that brand and that includes the voice. So understand that they're not having a need for a new voice actor every single time they're airing the ad or putting it out there on social media. That may be.  11:19 You are a voice for a campaign which runs for a certain length of time, which is why we base our rates especially when it's broadcast right on where it's being played and for how long Because we are a voice for that particular time, for that particular campaign. Now, if they want to extend that right, they will pay to extend that or they'll find a new voice if they're looking for that.  11:42 - Tom (Guest) Right, we love the rebuys where you narrate something and it's good for a certain period. I got that phone call two weeks ago. I did a social media ad and for a six month term, and they literally called me on the phone. They're like, hey, they want to do it again, bill us, yeah, and I just build them. And they're like, oh, and we have two more spots. That's the wonderful part.  11:59 - Anne (Host) But the thing is is like for that particular brand, right Voice actors. If you're going to reach out to that same company and say, hey, I'm a voice actor, hire me. Well, they've got Tom right For reasons within the campaign. If his voice is working and that's what they want, they're going to continue to have Tom. So don't take it personally, don't beat Tom up.  12:19 - Tom (Guest) Tom is like sorry not sorry, Sorry, not sorry Sorry not sorry, sorry, not sorry.  12:22 - Anne (Host) I think we just have sometimes a very narrow view of what it's like on the other side of the glass and to have that need and that desire to create a campaign with a voice, and so you have to be understanding of the way it works.  12:34 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, another point on that is that late last year a voice actor posted on Facebook an infographic that I want to say it was. An explainer video producer posted an infographic. They tracked the amount of hours that it takes to produce an explainer video, which obviously includes concept writing, storyboard, budget, legal department, music and all of that stuff, and the amount, the percentage that involved the voice actor, was 1.5%. Yeah, 1.5%. So often we as voice actors are an afterthought.  13:06 - Anne (Host) Yeah, we're the last part of the journey there.  13:08 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, and sometimes I'll just ask around the office, or their niece, who's a musical theater major, and they just give it to them and that's it.  13:15 - Anne (Host) But yes, obviously casting notices are posted everywhere all the time and it's so funny because I mean, when I'm doing oh, it's funny because I'm dabbling a little bit in fashion and when I'm creating videos, I mean my main thing is that I'm talking about the brand or I'm showcasing the brand, but a lot of times the videos don't even require the voice. Unless I'm directly talking about the brand, I can put music behind it. And it's funny because in my process of creating the video right for, let say, the brands that I'm working for the last thing I put in is the voice. It's the last thing I do, unless I'm doing a direct-to-camera like hey guys, this is an amazing product. Then it all happens together, right, and then the video editing happens and my voice is already there talking about it.  13:57 But a lot of times I'm not necessarily, or I'm doing a voiceover after the fact, and so, yeah, we become like the last part of the project, and so that's something to also be aware of. It's not that we're not important, we're very important, but you have to understand where in the chain of events that it happens. That's why people, when they cast, they want to cast typically like quickly, right, they want to find that voice and just put it into the video that's already been done, and then music and sound effects, because, again, like Tom you mentioned, we're typically the last part.  14:31 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, and from what I've noticed in my casting notices over the past decade or so is that the turnaround time for casting is usually about 48 hours, and then from the recording of it is probably another 48 hours. Sometimes it's even quicker than that. So usually that means if this project took six weeks or two months or whatever that means at most not. I'm not saying a week is spent on the voiceover, it's just that everything that needs to happen regarding the voiceover is probably a handful of hours within one week, and then that's it.  15:04 So the point is, bosses, is that if you are engaging in direct marketing strategies, like cold calls or emails, and you're doing your follow-up emails and reaching out on social media, like directly in sending the messages and stuff like that you have to manage your expectations. I was reading a study that since 2014, the return on cold calls and emails has dropped by 10% every year for the past 10 years. And guess what? 10% times 10 years equals 100%. So it doesn't mean they're not effective at all anymore. But now the expectation of them actually getting your email or answering your phone call and responding positively is between 1% and 3%. It is a very, very small percentage, which means also this is a numbers game.  15:49 - Anne (Host) Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, but it's not impossible.  15:52 - Tom (Guest) No, it's not impossible. You want to be smart about it.  15:55 - Anne (Host) Yeah, what I'm always telling people because I have a Boss Blast product and I know you also do a lot of educational courses on direct marketing. It's something that you need to understand. It's definitely a marathon, not a sprint, kind of a game, and the good thing about it is that once you do connect and once you're in front of the eyes of someone who has the power to hire you and award you the gig, typically you want to stay top of mind, and that's when you're talking about marketing. Staying top of mind is always a good thing. You're talking about marketing. Staying top of mind is always a good thing. That's when they'll call you and say, hey, we want to extend this for another 13 weeks or we want to extend this again. So once you hook them, hopefully you keep them, and that's where the challenge is.  16:36 You know auditions. You know there's a need already. You audition and they cast because they're at that stage in the project where that's what they need. Right, they need that voice. But when you're direct marketing and you're reaching out, they may not have that need right away. They might think about you and say, oh okay, I like that voice. I don't have a need for her right now, but maybe let me put her to the side and let's when another campaign comes up that I think she's good for and I get that all the time when I'm on a few different rosters They'll contact me directly and say, hey look, I think you'd be a perfect voice for this campaign. Can you send me an audition? And typically, boom, that's good because it's a cold lead that turned into a warm lead and that is nice because I didn't have to really do much effort because I'm on his radar.  17:18 So when you're direct marketing, tom, the other important thing to understand is not only how it works right and understand and the expectations. It is how do you know who to contact right? And how do you contact them without being spammed? Because, guess what? We all get spam every single day. I get phone calls still that I don't pick up the phone. I get emails that are scammers, that are just junk email I don't even bother to look at. I see the subject line and I'm like nope, so I'm not going to be spamming. In today's world where it is getting increasingly hard. How do you do it right? That's the question, that's the golden question, right? How do you do it? How do you get their attention?  17:55 - Tom (Guest) Well, I've learned a couple of just some just brief bullet pointy bits of advice is be concise, be brief, be professional, but be you as much as you can If you have a very formal subject line or a very prim and proper paragraph. Hi, my name is this, I do this, I do that, I can do this, and every sentence starts with the word I Delete Immediate turn off.  18:21 - Anne (Host) It's about how you can help the company.  18:23 - Tom (Guest) Yes, it's how you can bring value to their company. It's not about you Solve their pain point. Exactly, solve the pain point. What can you do for them? But don't make it I, I, I Make it about. You need this, you need this. Your problem is this your problem can be solved with my services as a voice actor, but at the same time, be you as much as you can be you, be as personable as you can. Funny goes a long way and showing that you know about them.  18:54 - Anne (Host) Yes, because it becomes like these are two strangers meeting in the night, right? So what makes that meeting more agreeable? Well, if I have done my homework, it's kind of like God the olden days, tom, when I used to go on interviews for like corporate jobs. Right, you wouldn't go into a corporate interview for a job and not know anything about the company that you're applying to.  19:15 Right, I mean that was the biggest no-no was no. You've got to understand what does the company make, what are the products that it makes and what is it that is attracting you to this company? So if you can offer some insight into their company and why it is that you feel it would be a beneficial partnership, then definitely reaching out with how you can solve their pain point and showing that you're interested in them and not just like I, I, I and I'm a great voice actor and listen to my talent. It's not about you at all. It's about how you can help them right to sell their product or to sell their brand.  19:48 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, your job is a problem solver. Yeah, don't treat them like a cash register and your email is a crowbar.  19:54 - Anne (Host) Oh, I like that, that visual.  19:57 - Tom (Guest) You know he's kind of like give me the money to say the things have you said that before?  20:00 - Anne (Host) Did you just grab that from there? That was great.  20:02 - Tom (Guest) I've said it in various permutations of that over the years. But yeah, yeah, I've also said we try to treat voice seekers like ATMs. Yeah, because we only see them as these machines that can give us money. Yeah, absolutely. These are people that have their own needs and challenges.  20:17 They are human beings that have their own struggles creative, logistical, financial, cultural struggles. And if voiceover is 1.5% of their thought processes in any given project, 5% of their thought processes in any given project, you want that 1.5% to be maybe the easiest and most entertaining, 1.5% to make everything a little bit easier.  20:38 - Anne (Host) Don't give them homework. That's what I always say. Don't give them homework, Don't make them try to research you. Don't give them homework. Just be there to let them know that you can help them and that you have a genuine interest in their company, in their product, in wanting to serve them and to help them, to make their jobs easier. Really, I think that's the point, and anybody that's worked in the corporate world knows that they want their job to be easier. They're working for someone, typically, and they have a lot on their plate. They don't want to be bogged down by, oh my God, a big, lengthy email that is going on and on and on and self-serving.  21:14 I know that when I get emails and I like to talk a lot. I think that's the problem, Tom. As voice actors, we like to talk right, and sometimes that transcribes right into our emails. I used to write these emails that were like paragraphs, paragraphs. Nobody has time for that and I would love to write paragraphs of an email and I would spend so much time.  21:32 I remember when I broke down what I did in my corporate job. I spent the majority of my time writing customer service emails and they were long emails and the funny thing is, I would get offended if people three quarters of the way down, if I put an important fact and then somebody wrote me back and then asked me a question about that fact, I'd be like how could you not have read that email? I spent so much time on it Because people don't have the capacity right to read a big, long, horribly boring email and also you are encroaching upon their time. I get so many emails a day, Tom, we've talked about this before. I have like a million some odd unread emails in my Gmail on purpose, because I want to see the marketing. I want to see the marketing that people are doing, and you just have to understand that you're taking up a part of their day, and so I think you need to like, deserve that.  22:18 And you need to prove that you're worthy of that 1.5% of their time. And so that means, if they don't want to hear from you again, if you've presented yourself in a way where they don't have a need for you, or maybe you I don't know, maybe you're all self-serving and they're like I don't need this they need to have a way to not get those emails from you ever, ever again. So there are legal ramifications of you reaching out to somebody unsolicited, typically in any direct marketing. That is the next thing that I want to bring up.  22:46 Tom, in any direct marketing you have to have permission to send an email. And if you don't necessarily have direct permission, you have to offer them a way to opt out of the emails that you send to them. And that includes, when you send that cold email, something at the bottom that says if you would like to unsubscribe to these emails, give them a way to opt out of that. And you also must provide and this is just good business measure you have to provide legally an address of your company on your emails. So when you send those emails out, you have to give them a way to opt out of the emails and you have to give them your business address.  23:23 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely, because you don't want the internet to give you the ban. Hammer if you're sending out hundreds or thousands of these emails at the same time. Manhammer if you're sending out hundreds or thousands of these emails at the same time. So I've heard recently that the era of spray and pray is over, but it's not just for all the marketing value pain points provide value stuff, but it's also because of the internet, as we as a people has just had it with all of these spammy carbon copy templaty desperate has just had it with all of these spammy carbon copy templaty. Desperate, aggressive, obnoxious, self-aggrandizing emails that we're getting over and over again, because we can't tell what's real and what's fake anymore when the phone rings or when an email comes in or when we see a social media post. So people are cracking down and being like we have no tolerance for this. I would rather send less emails that have more value than more emails that have more value than more emails that have value, and hope for the occasional hit.  24:13 - Anne (Host) And again, if you are sending out mass emails and that's a whole nother thing with direct marketing, not many people have the provision to send out thousands of emails at one time because most, unless you're paying for that service, which I do for the boss blast I pay for that service. I am able to send out lots of emails at a time. It's done through a server which doesn't do it all at once. And also the people that I'm sending it to have already opted in to me, marketing to them, and still, at the very least, I have to put. Here's a way to opt out and here's my business address and they only allow from my domain, the, and they only allow from my domain, the VO Boss domain. So anybody that buys a Boss Blast, you are actually getting a list that has already opted in to be marketed to and they have all the legal rights to opt out if they want.  24:58 Most people don't, because they've opted in for a reason, but it's something that I would say most voice actors can't afford because you typically pay by the contact. So my server, which is ActiveCampaign, I pay by the contact, so contact. So my server, which is ActiveCampaign, I pay by the contact. So I have a few hundred thousand contacts that I pay for in order to be able to send emails out to that, and that's not something necessarily that every voice actor has the budget to do, which is why I offered the Boss Blast.  25:22 And this isn't all just about the Boss Blast, but it's anytime you're talking about doing direct mail, quality over quantity unless you have the provision to send out quantity, which is something that I pay thousands of dollars for, and I also make sure I got all the legal ramifications for people to opt out if they need to. But you need to do the same thing on a smaller scale, and direct marketing, I feel, is one of the methods of marketing that needs to be implemented so that in combination with indirect marketing. And you've got to do it. Gosh Tom, how much percentage of your time would you say? I would say 80%, if not a little bit more when things are lean.  25:58 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, when things are slow I immediately go to market, absolutely. But when things are busy, I have learned also to keep doing my marketing. So there, aren't as many slow periods.  26:09 So, yes, direct marketing can and should be part of a balanced breakfast. That is, every voice actor. If you can get quality representation audition through your agents and managers, if you understand how to feed the algorithms of online casting sites, use them to keep the flow of auditions coming in. Direct marketing with thoughtful, value-driven emails. Indirect marketing with thoughtful, value-driven emails. Indirect marketing with thoughtful value-driven blog posts, blog entries and social media posts. You should be doing, ideally, some combination of all of these as often as you can to maximize your opportunities to get the voiceover auditions that you desire.  26:47 - Anne (Host) And always be cultivating your next client, even if you're super busy. I think that's the most important thing that I've learned over the many years that I've been in the business here is always be cultivating your next client, because your clients, even if you've had them for years and years and years, they're never guaranteed. And the best in the business will say the same. So good conversation, Tom. I think we could talk about marketing in 500 more episodes.  27:10 But I think this is a great start guys to understand that it is a necessary evil and it's not scary. It's really not scary. You need to embrace the challenge that is marketing and, again, I like to look at everything as a challenge. That's what gives me joy in my business and also one of the reasons why I did create the VL Boss Blast was because I didn't have a ton of time to do the indirect marketing, although I do that a lot too. So everybody needs a balanced breakfast of both indirect and direct marketing. And, tom, thank you again for always being such a golden nugget of wisdom in my podcast.  27:42 - Tom (Guest) Thank you, I love it.  27:44 - Anne (Host) I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. Yes, you too can be a boss, a real boss and find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next time. Bye.  27:59 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.