Bad Thoughts: When a Preacher and a Shrink Team Up to Heal the Mind and Soul, with Judah Smith and Dr. Les Parrott and

On this week’s episode of Typology, I’m joined by two remarkable guests who sit right at the intersection of faith and psychology: Dr. Les Parrott, a clinical psychologist and author, and pastor Judah Smith, who brings a preacher’s honesty and a comedian’s timing to our conversation. Together, they’ve written a new book called Bad Thoughts: A Preacher and a Shrink’s Guide to Reclaiming Your Mind and Soul. It’s a lively and deeply honest dialogue between theology and therapy—between the pulpit and the couch. We dive into what Les calls the five “toxic thought patterns” that keep us stuck—guilt, shame, insecurity, entitlement, and unworthiness—and how reframing those internal narratives can lead to genuine healing. Judah opens up with surprising candor about his own inner critic, the pressure of ministry, and why he believes the future of the church might look a lot more like AA than Sunday morning at 10 a.m. It’s part Enneagram session (spoiler: Judah’s possibly a Seven), part theology class, and part group therapy—equal parts laughter, humility, and grace. You’ll hear Les explain why awareness is curative, Judah describe what it’s like to feel “freer in his soul,” and me wrestling right alongside them with what it really means to change our minds. If you’ve ever wondered how psychology and spirituality can work together to transform our lives—and not against each other—this conversation is for you.     ABOUT OUR GUESTS Judah Smith is the lead communicator of Churchome, a thriving community with multiple locations and a global app, known for its cultural relevance and deep love for Jesus. He is the New York Times bestselling author of Jesus Is __. Judah and his wife, Chelsea, live in Seattle, Washington. Dr. Les Parrott is a #1 New York Times bestselling author and psychologist who has been featured on Oprah, CBS This Morning, the Today Show, CNN, and The View, as well as in USA Today and The New York Times. His books, which include Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts and many others, have sold over five million copies. Les and his wife, Leslie, a marriage therapist, are the creators of BetterLove.com, a resource for couples. Les and Leslie live in Seattle, Washington.  

What if the real key to spiritual transformation isn’t trying harder—but receiving love more deeply? In this heartfelt conversation, I sit down once again with Drs. Bill and Kristi Gaultiere—spiritual directors, therapists, and founders of Soul Shepherding—to explore what it means to truly receive and reflect God’s empathy. Drawing from their new book, Deeply Loved, the Gaultieres invite us to consider a radical truth: that spiritual transformation begins not with striving or self-critique, but with allowing ourselves to be seen, known, and loved—just as we are. Together, we unpack how shame, unconscious resistance, and old emotional wounds can block us from receiving love—from God, from others, and even from ourselves. Through vulnerable stories and spiritual wisdom, Bill and Kristi reveal how empathy heals the deepest fractures in our souls, allowing us to move from performance and perfectionism into grace-filled presence. We explore: Why self-empathy is essential to emotional and spiritual health. How each Enneagram type misses empathy in distinct ways. The difference between tactical and transformational empathy. How empathy, truth, and responsibility work together to produce growth. What it looks like to experience God’s empathy even in suffering and loss.  

What is an Instinctual Stack? Do you know yours? We all have three instincts. None of us are absent one. However, one does tend to be dominant.  But what are instincts and how do they influence how each type shows up in the world?  In today’s episode, we revisit our conversation with Elan Benami, creator of the EnneaApp and author of  Enneagram Patterns & Poetics, to provide you with a great overview of Instincts, Subtypes, and the Instinctual Stack and how they can play out in your personal and professional life.    About Elan: Elan is an LPC with a MA in Transpersonal Counseling Psychology and BA in Philosophy. In addition to his own private counseling practice, Elan is the Clinical Director of People House - a non-profit that provides affordable counseling in Colorado. Elan was introduced to the Enneagram in 2008 by his first therapist. He then did intense studying with Lori Ohlson, who was his supervisor. Claudio Naranjo was Lori's primary teacher, so there is a deep kinship with his work. Other major Enneagram teachers who have shaped Elan include Helen Palmer, Russ Hudson, Don Riso, and Sandra Maitri. Elan and Lori Ohlson have co-facilitated many Enneagram classes/workshops, most of them in the narrative tradition. Through Lori’s Enneagram material (of over 25 years of teaching the Enneagram), Elan created the EnneaApp, initially for the purpose of having something to quickly reference between sessions. Through the years, he has adapted the content to be more reflective of his own experience while also preserving Lori’s lineage. The app has over 1.5 million downloads.

What if the ways we keep getting stuck in relationships aren’t just bad habits, but the natural outworking of how we’re wired to bond—and to protect ourselves from pain? In this episode of Typology, I sit down with psychologist and couples counselor Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (a freshly discovered Seven with an Eight wing) to talk about the intersection of attachment, addiction to love, and the Enneagram. We explore why love itself can feel addictive, how that longing for connection sometimes binds us to the wrong person or pattern, and why recovery communities often work—they help us reattach to what’s good, true, and life-giving. Along the way we dig into common Enneagram pairings, the myth of perfect compatibility, and the real gift of learning to honor differences, see blind spots, and practice repair. If you’ve ever wondered why you tend to chase, withdraw, fix, or move on too quickly—and how to love with more courage and steadiness—you’ll find this conversation both practical and deeply hopeful.   ABOUT DR. LISA MARIE BOBBY Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby is a licensed marriage and family therapist, psychologist, board certified coach and author of Exaholics: Breaking Your Addiction to an Ex Love.  She is the founder of Growing Self Counseling and Coaching, an internationally recognized practice focused on love, happiness, and success. With over 120K monthly podcast downloads on Love, Happiness, and Success, she offers expert advice on relationships, personal development, and professional growth. Dr. Bobby has been featured in Oprahdaily.com, The New York Times, CNBC, Women’s Health, and Real Simple, making her a trusted authority in the media on all things love, life design, and self-improvement.

Today, we’re joined by Justin (8w7) and Trisha Davis (3w2), a couple whose story holds both heartbreak and a hard-won hope. We talk honestly about the Eight–Three dance in marriage—intensity, drive, image, and protection—and how those same strengths can be magic when we’re healthy and toxic when we’re not. We also dive into their new book, One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles that Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. They remind us that real transformation isn’t about muscling through—it’s about naming the wound, choosing presence over performance, and practicing honest vulnerability. Justin shares how confusing help with weakness fueled secrecy and performance—and how grief became a doorway to healing. Trisha reflects on the Three’s chameleon move, learning to show up without over-achieving, and a wise reframing of the Enneagram as “not a weapon and not an excuse.” Together, they walk us through surviving an affair, pastoring through COVID, late-in-life family revelations, and the truth that forgiveness is not a one-and-done event. Their North Star: when they’re healthy, they’re magic; when they’re not, they’re toxic—and daily choices make the difference. If you’ve tried to achieve your way out of pain or sprinted past grief because it felt inefficient, this conversation will meet you in the messy middle. We explore relief vs. recovery, acting our way into new feelings, and why you can’t heal a wound you won’t name. It’s tender, practical, and full of hope.  I hope you'll tune in.      About our guests Justin and Trisha Davis are pastors, authors, speakers, and the founders of RefineUs Ministries. They’re not perfect. They’re not interested in pretending. They are passionate about helping others experience real healing and deeper connection. Together, they co-authored Beyond Ordinary: When a Good Marriage Just Isn’t Good Enough, and Justin’s book Being Real > Being Perfect: How Transparency Leads to Transformation is a USA Today bestseller. Justin and Trisha have been married for 30 years, have five kids and live in Indianapolis. One Choice Away from Change — available wherever books are sold Justin & Trisha’s Website: http://justinandtrisha.com

In this episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Todd Hall to explore the profound ways attachment theory shapes not only our personal relationships but also our spirituality. Together, we unpack how the early bonds we form with caregivers influence our emotional health, the ways we relate to others, and even how we connect with God. Todd shares insights from his groundbreaking research on relational spirituality, reminding us that true spiritual formation is not just about what we know—it’s about how we experience love, connection, and trust in real relationships. We discuss the different attachment styles—secure, anxious, avoidant, and fearful—and how they show up in daily life and in faith. Along the way, Todd offers hope: insecure attachment styles are not destiny. Through healing relationships and spiritual practices, our relational patterns can be rewired toward greater security, freedom, and love. If you’ve ever wondered why relationships are so hard, why intimacy feels risky, or why your connection with God sometimes feels distant or fragile, this conversation will help you see yourself with fresh compassion—and invite you into a more integrated path of personal and spiritual growth.   ABOUT TODD W. HALL, Ph.D. Todd W. Hall, Ph.D. is Professor of Psychology at Biola University’s Rosemead School of Psychology, a Faculty Affiliate in the Harvard Human Flourishing Program, and a licensed psychologist. He is the author of numerous books, including Relational Spirituality and The Connected Life. Dr. Hall is the founder of the Relational Spirituality Academy, which trains Christian leaders in the Relational Spirituality model of spiritual formation and coaching (relationalspirituality.co). Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn at @drtoddwhall Relational Spirituality: A Psychological-Theological Paradigm for Transformation  The Connected Life: The Art and Science of Relational Spirituality   

This week, we explore the art of listening and the complexities of human personality through the lens of the Enneagram with Emily Kasriel, an award-winning journalist, executive coach, and author of the new book, Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends, and Foes. Emily shares her journey of self-awareness and the importance of deep listening in our everyday interactions. She discusses her experiences at the BBC, the challenges of listening in high-stakes situations, and the powerful eight-step approach to deep listening outlined in her book. Discover how to create psychological safety in conversations, the significance of being present, and the value of curiosity in understanding others. We also examine the nuances of the Enneagram, helping listeners discern their personality types and how they can enhance their listening skills. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or a seasoned enthusiast, this episode is packed with insights that can transform your relationships and deepen your understanding of yourself and others. Key Highlights: The concept of deep listening and its importance in today's world The eight-step process for effective deep listening Personal anecdotes and reflections on self-awareness The interplay between personality types and listening styles Don't forget to grab a copy of Emily's book, Deep Listening, and join the conversation about how we can all become better listeners! Subscribe to Typology for more insights on personality and relationships!

In this week’s episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Terence Lester—an Enneagram Eight, author of From Dropout to Doctorate, and the visionary founder of Love Beyond Walls. Terence’s story is as powerful as it is inspiring. From his early years in Atlanta to leading a movement that uplifts those experiencing poverty and homelessness, his journey embodies both courage and compassion. Together, we explore what it means to be an Enneagram Eight in the trenches of community work—wrestling with control, burnout, and the temptation to over-function. Terence opens up about a devastating car accident that reshaped his sense of identity, his relationship with productivity, and ultimately, his capacity for gratitude. We also dive into the intersection of action and contemplation, the influence of Henri Nouwen on Terence’s life, and the healing power of reconciliation in his own family story. Along the way, Terence reminds us that leadership isn’t about posturing but about vulnerability, presence, and the willingness to walk alongside others in their pain. This conversation is an invitation to rethink how we serve, how we love, and how we grow. You’ll walk away with profound insights about resilience, healing, and the transformative power of the Enneagram.       ABOUT OUR GUEST Dr. Terence Lester is a storyteller, public scholar, speaker, community activist and author of From Dropout to Doctorate. He is the founder and executive director of Love Beyond Walls, a nonprofit organization focused on raising awareness about poverty, homelessness and community mobilization. He serves as the director of public policy and social change and as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky (HBCU). He received his PhD with a concentration in public policy and social change from Union Institute and University. Terence has authored four additional books with IVP, including one with his sixteen-year-old daughter, Zion, titled Zion Learns to See: Opening Our Eyes to Homelessness. The other titles include I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, and All God’s Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity.  Terence is known for nationwide campaigns that bring awareness to homelessness, poverty and economic inequality. His awareness campaigns have been featured on ML K50, CNN, Good Morning America, Essence, TEDx, TVONE, Creative Mornings, USA Today, NBC News, Black Enterprise, Rolling Out, Upworthy and more. These campaigns have been viewed by millions of people worldwide. Terence is happily married to his best friend, Cecilia, and they have two amazing children, Zion Joy and Terence II.  Learn more about Dr. Lester by visiting his website at www.terencelester.org or follow on social media at @imterencelester or @lovebeyondwalls. 

This week on Typology, I sit down with Ginny Yurich—author of Until the Streetlights Come On and Homeschooling: You’re Doing It Right Just by Doing It. Together, we revisit the freedom of childhood play, explore how modern parenting has shifted, and talk about why kids today desperately need more time outdoors. Ginny, an Enneagram Two, shares candidly about her own parenting journey—what she’s learned about boundaries, mutuality, and the deep desire to feel appreciated. She also introduces her initiative, 1,000 Hours Outside, which is inspiring families around the world to reclaim the simple, sacred gift of unstructured outdoor play. Whether you’re a parent, grandparent, teacher, or simply someone reflecting on your own childhood, this conversation is a powerful reminder that nature has the ability to heal, connect, and transform us.     Connect with Ginny 1,000 Hours Outdoors Podcast  Instagram  Facebook Website Homeschooling: You're Doing It Right Just By Doing It Until the Streetlights Come On  

In this episode of Typology, I sit down with Alicia Michelle—an Enneagram One and host of The Christian Mindset Coach podcast—for a meaningful conversation about emotions, perfectionism, and the journey toward self-compassion. Alicia shares her story of discovering her true type, the freedom that comes from quieting the inner critic, and her practical ADD method (Acknowledge, Discern, Decide) for processing emotions. Together, we explore the importance of emotional literacy, how different types experience emotions, and why learning to govern our inner world is key to growth. Whether you’re new to the Enneagram or eager to go deeper, this episode offers fresh insights and practical tools for navigating your emotional life with greater clarity and grace.