The Four Immeasurable Minds (Episode #88)

Welcome to a new episode of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. This is the recording of our second live public event, which recently took place in London. Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined on stage by special guest Ocean Vuong, Vietnamese American poet, essayist, and novelist. Their conversation explores the themes of joy, togetherness, and cultivating courage in the face of hardship and suffering; the role of language, narrative, and technology in shaping modern experiences of suffering and joy; intergenerational trauma; and more. All three share personal experiences and insights about finding meaning and community amidst individual and collective challenges. Ocean recollects the way that, growing up in a community impacted by the opioid crisis, Buddhism and the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh provided solace and a path to understanding suffering, while Brother Phap Huu reflects on his journey to become a Zen Buddhist monk, and the role of kindness, fearlessness, and vulnerability in his practice.  The discussion culminates with a chant offered by Ocean as a message of hope and resilience in the face of adversity. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   Plum Village UK https://plumvillage.uk/ And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ Photo credit: Wayne Price List of resources Ocean Vuong https://www.oceanvuong.com Being with Busyness: Zen Ways to Transform Overwhelm and Burnouthttps://www.parallax.org/product/being-with-busyness/   Calm in the Storm: Zen Ways to Cultivate Stability in an Anxious Worldhttps://www.parallax.org/product/calm-in-the-storm/  Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing  W. S. Merwinhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._S._Merwin  Harry Beecher Stowehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Beecher_Stowe  Tom Brokawhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brokaw Duḥkhahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du%E1%B8%A5kha  Ford Model Thttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T  The Dhammapadahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada  Anaphorahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphora_(rhetoric)  Schadenfreudehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude  ‘Bright Morning Star’https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_Morning_Star  ‘The Five Earth Touchings’https://plumvillage.org/key-practice-texts/the-five-earth-touchings  Quotes “When drinking water, remember the source.” “On the last day of the world / I would want to plant a tree / what for / not for the fruit […] / I want the tree that stands / in the earth for the first time / with the sun already / going down” – from ‘Place’ by W.S. Merwin.  “Being a Vietnamese person in the diaspora, for many of us, the temple or the church or what have you is the place where we hear Vietnamese at the longest unbroken duration. Whereas someone native to Vietnam would hear it all the time. So, to this day, the Vietnamese language, to me, elicits this collective desire to heal and understand suffering. And it’s very specific to the immigrant. It’s what I call a third culture: there’s nothing like it in the homeland; there’s nothing like it in the assimilated American ethos. But there’s this special place that displacement and violence created.”  “In Plum Village, when I first entered, I was 13 years old, and I touched a kind of kindness that I’d never touched before. And I asked myself whether I could be a kind person. I think I’m good; I think I’m going to have a career of offering smiles.”  “I invite us, as a collective, to invoke this peace that we can bring in our hearts and into the world at this moment. Body, speech, and mind in perfect oneness. I send my heart along with the sound of this bell. May the hearers awaken from forgetfulness and transcend the path of anxiety and sorrow.” “Just a smile can save someone’s life.” “Technology was supposed to bring us together. This is the promise of the Enlightenment. But it’s interesting that all technological movements or renaissances are controlled by the wealthy and the elites. So what I’m interested in, as a writer, as a teacher, is that so much of our world is about material resources and narrative. And this is why I tell my students, ‘They shame you for being a poet, for being a writer: “Oh, you’re doing this liberal arts, naval-gazing, decadent thing, dreaming”’ – but the politicians and the elites are poets too. The greatest political speech is the anaphora. Walt Whitman used it as a catalog, but you hear it: ‘We will heal the working class, we will heal the great divide, I will solve, we will heal this country’s heart, we will heal the middle class.’ And that’s why the anaphora is so useful: because it doesn’t have to explain itself.”  “All those in power are also poets. They’re manipulating meaning, but for votes, for profit, for power, towards fascism. And no wonder the system is designed to make you ashamed to be an artist. It’s so interesting, isn’t it, that, in the art world, we’re often asked to be humble, to be grateful for a seat at the table; to perform humility. And I think humility is good; as a Buddhist, I believe in it, but there is a discrepancy here: we never tell people on Wall Street to be humble. You never hear someone say, ‘You know what, we killed it last quarter, so let’s tone it down and be grateful that we have a seat at the economic table.’” “Kindness is more difficult now than ever because I think kindness is something that is deeply dependent on our proximity to suffering. It’s harder for us to comprehend suffering, now. Schadenfreude is in our hands and it’s always easier to see. We’ve normalized suffering so much that we’ve been disassociated from it.”  “We speak about inclusiveness and equanimity in Buddhism, but we’re not equal. Some of us are born in places where we have more privileges: in a particular race, in a particular situation, in a particular year. But what is equal is, as human beings, we’re all going to grow old, we’re all going to get sick, we’re all going to have to let go of what we think is permanent. And we’re going to learn to live deeply in the present moment.”  “Sadness becomes not just a feeling, but knowledge. So think about sadness as knowledge, as potential, and that anger even has an aftermath. And you realize that the aftermath of anger is care.” “The big trouble with masculinity is that we are not given the ability or the permission to feel and be vulnerable – but we are encouraged to have absolute agency. It’s incredible. It’s a perfect storm of violence: ‘Don’t feel, don’t interrogate, and don’t be vulnerable. But, meanwhile, go get ‘em, buddy.’” “Under our greatest fear is our greatest strength.”  “Camus says that writing itself is optimism, because it’s suffering shared. Even if you write about the darkest things, it is optimistic because someone else will recognize it. And recognition is a democratic ideal, because it means that one feeling could then be taken and collaborated with.”  “It’s really hard to convince people to go to war, historically. You need a lot of text, you need a lot of airwaves, you need a lot of speeches to convince people to go to war – but it’s very easy to convince people to stop war. Very easy for people to stop armament. Difficult for folks who are in control to keep it up, but if you ask the general population, ‘Do you want peace?’, it’s quick. So that gives me a little hope.”  “In fast food is a kind of sinister beauty, because it’s an industrialized promise of absolute replication of fulfillment – and yet it’s a kind of poison as well. It’s like the ultimate democratic ideal, sadly: we can’t have equality, income equality, or healthcare, but we can all eat McDonald’s French fries, and, whether you’re a billionaire or a houseless person, it will taste the same. Likewise with Coca-Cola, etc. In a way it’s the sinister capaciousness of the American dream: you can all feel the same thing while you’re all slowly dying.” 

Welcome to a new episode of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino explore the importance of silence and its role in personal transformation and spiritual practice.  They further discuss noble silence in the Plum Village tradition – a fundamental practice that allows for deep reflection, self-awareness, and connection with the present moment; silence as a space that enables practitioners to listen deeply; the challenges of silence; the contrast between the mainstream emphasis on productivity, noise, and external validation, and the Buddhist approach of valuing stillness, presence, and inner listening as a path to true well-being and happiness; silence as a means to engage more deeply with life, rather than as an escape; embodied listening; and more.  The episode concludes with an invitation to take time for silent reflection and to explore the transformative power of silence in our lives. Enjoy! Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resourcesInterbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing    Being with Busyness: Zen Ways to Transform Overwhelm and Burnouthttps://www.parallax.org/product/being-with-busyness/   Calm in the Storm: Zen Ways to Cultivate Stability in an Anxious Worldhttps://www.parallax.org/product/calm-in-the-storm/  Buddha Path https://buddhapath.com ‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village    Brother Spirithttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-phap-linh  Brother Phap Unghttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-chan-phap-ung  ‘Three Resources Explaining the Plum Village Tradition of Lazy Days’https://plumvillage.app/three-resources-explaining-the-plum-village-tradition-of-lazy-days/  Tao Te Ching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching Bimbisarahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimbisara Devadattahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta Quotes “When we learn to allow ourselves to be in silence, the silence becomes delicious because it gives us an immense feeling of spaciousness. But silence is also very scary if we are not trained in it – scary because we get to see our restlessness.”  “The silence that we are learning to cultivate is the stillness that we all need.”  “When we engage with the world, we don’t know how to be silent. That is not engaged Buddhism. That is not applied Buddhism. So the middle way is very important. Silence is not to suppress or to bypass what is going on; in our practice, there’s a space and time for everything.” “Silence allows us spaces of deep reflection. Silence is also to hear ourselves.” “Noble silence is the silence of being present.” “There’s a lot to learn in silence, and a lot to discover, as well as to celebrate.”  “The silence of listening is an art form and a practice of embodied listening. And that means that we’re not just listening with our minds, but that we need to learn to listen with our whole body.” “We’re not here trying to gain more to enhance our ‘label’; actually, Zen is about seeing our label and letting it go, in order to see our wholeness. Because our wholeness is not limited to ‘I am a monk’, ‘I am a journalist’, ‘I am a coach’, ‘I am a business leader’, ‘I am my technician’. We’re so much more than this.”  “Learn to let go. That’s the hardest practice.” “A lotus to you, a Buddha to be.”  “Don’t just do something, sit there.”  “There’s nothing to learn, but there is a lot to unlearn. Because, actually, when we strip away all the fears, judgments, and sufferings, home is already there. It’s already present, it’s never gone away; we just traveled a long way from it.” “So much of life is about feeling safe, and about knowing that we’re not on our own and that we are going to be supported.”  “Colors blind the eye. Sounds deafen the ears. Flavors numb the taste. Thoughts weaken the mind. Desires wither the heart. The Master observes the world, but trusts his inner vision. He allows things to come and go. His heart is as open as the sky” – from the Tao Te Ching, credited to Lao Tzu. “There is no way to happiness; happiness is the way.”

This week, we are delighted to share an episode of the 10% Happier podcast, which is hosted by bestselling author Dan Harris and features world-class insights and practices from experts in modern science and ancient wisdom.  Dan’s guest, for the second time, is Zen Buddhist monk and Way Out Is In co-host Brother Phap Huu, who discusses his burnout and how he recovered – and how you can, too.The episode was recorded during early summer 2025, and first released on July 2nd 2025. Together, Dan and Brother Phap Huu discuss: Why people are busier and more susceptible to overwhelm than ever before  Why monastics aren’t immune to burnout The way that  busyness is thrust upon us by contemporary lifestyles, but is also a result of us running away from the things we don’t want to face Practical tools for addressing busyness and burnout  Why doing nothing is an art The importance of perspective – and how contemplating your mortality can provide this  The practice of total relaxation How to maintain healthy boundaries without adopting mental armor Ways to say no without annoying people  How to protect ourselves in toxic environments. And much more. Related Episodes:‘The Buddhist Case for Laziness (And How It Can Make You More Productive) | Brother Chân Pháp Hữu’ ‘Your Negative, Ruminating Mind: Here’s Your Way Out | Sister Dang Nghiem‘ ‘The Antidote to Mindless Eating with Br. Chan Pháp Lưu’ ‘Six Buddhist Strategies for Getting Along Better with Everyone | Sister True Dedication’ ‘How to Suffer Well – So You Can Suffer Less | Brother Pháp Dung’ Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources  10% Happier with Dan Harrishttps://www.danharris.com/s/10-happier  Being with Busyness: Zen Ways to Transform Overwhelm and Burnouthttps://www.parallax.org/product/being-with-busyness/   Calm in the Storm: Zen Ways to Cultivate Stability in an Anxious Worldhttps://www.parallax.org/product/calm-in-the-storm/  Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing  Brené Brownhttps://brenebrown.com/  ‘Daily Contemplations on Impermanence & Interbeing’https://plumvillage.org/daily-contemplations-on-impermanence-interbeing  ‘Recommendation’ (poem)https://plumvillage.org/articles/recommendationThay’s Poetry: ‘Please Call Me by My True Names’ (song and poem)https://plumvillage.org/articles/please-call-me-by-my-true-names-song-poem Quotes “To cope with fears and insecurities, the premature hero has to stay busy all the time. The destructive capacity of nonstop busyness rivals nuclear weapons and is as addictive as opium. It empties the life of the spirit. False heroes find it easier to make war than deal with the emptiness in their souls.” “There is a lot of suffering right here, right now, but it is still our responsibility to be able to see the beauty in life, to see the joy and to cultivate happiness: the little things that can spark our creativity, our foundation of love. We are not limited by suffering. We contain the potential for so many offerings that we can give to ourselves and to the world.”  “When in chaos, come back to the fundamentals of the things that gave you joy and that gave you life.”  “The First Remembrance is that we are all of the nature to grow old; none of us can escape growing old. The Second Remembrance is we are all of the nature to get ill; none can escape that. The Third Remembrance is that all of us have to die; none of us can escape death. The Fourth Remembrance is that everything that we cherish today is of the nature of impermanence; we will have to learn to let go. And the Fifth Remembrance is the way forward; it gives us an insight into continuation. And that is our truest belonging: our legacies.” “Karma means action. And that action is the thought that we produce every day, the words that we speak every day, and how we behave in our way of being: the way we show up, the way we open a door, the way we tend to someone, the way we care for our loved ones or the environment. They are all our truest belongings that will be transmitted and will, in a way, be passed down from generation to generation.”  “Everything that exists in this moment is of the nature of impermanence. Nothing can stay the same.” “No mud, no lotus.”

Welcome to the 93rd episode of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino explore the art of transmission in Buddhism: wisdom and teachings being passed down over time, from teacher to student.  The hosts touch on the profound and nuanced ways in which Buddhist teachings and insights are passed down through generations, with the goal of cultivating understanding, compassion, and liberation; the role of nature as a powerful transmitter of wisdom; the significance of rituals and ceremonies in honoring this transmission; and more. Brother Phap Huu emphasizes the importance of deep listening, humility, and direct experience in the transmission process, and how true transmission goes beyond the imparting of knowledge, to a requirement that both teacher and student be in a state of non-self and openness to receive the teachings.  Enjoy! Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources  Live show: The Way Out Is In podcast with special guest Ocean Vuong plumvillage.uk/livepodcastInterbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing    ‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village    Dharma Talk: ‘The Five Powers: Faith, Diligence, Mindfulness, Concentration, Insight – Brother Phap Huu’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4PGrMjea7A Album: A Cloud Never Dieshttps://plumvillage.org/album-a-cloud-never-dies The Way Out Is In: ‘Feel It to Heal It: The Dharma of Music (Episode #79)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/feel-it-to-heal-it-the-dharma-of-music-episode-79  Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths  Quotes “Live happily in the present moment: ‘I have arrived; I am home.’”  “If we truly receive the Dharma, honestly and openly, by its nature we want to share it. It doesn’t start with us, doesn’t end with us. Instead, we are part of this extraordinary flow of life.” “Listening is the first doorway to communication. And many of us think that communication is about speaking or writing. But the foundation for speaking and for writing is listening.”  “When the Buddha embarked on a spiritual quest, he was looking for an understanding of suffering and a liberation from suffering. And the way of liberation from suffering is to be in suffering, to understand suffering, to embrace it and not run away from it, but transform it. Therefore, Buddhism is a way of life. So mindfulness is a way of life. Transmission is a way of life.” “When you hear the sound of the bell in the Plum Village tradition, you’re invited to pause and stop what you’re doing. Even if you’re listening to music, or having a wonderful, insightful conversation, you are invited to pause, to stop. And that stopping is a transmission of knowing how to cultivate stillness in life, in order to listen.”  “What we say, how we say it, and the tone of saying it creates a reality. That creates a transmission of knowledge, a transmission of feelings, a transmission of energy.”  “Buddhism is a very generous tradition. The Buddha offers, the teachers offer – and you’re the receiver. You can receive. Using the language of ‘I am receiving’ is very different from ‘I am taking.’ Or, even worse, ‘I am stealing.’ Because stealing indicates that something is now yours; it belongs to you. But when you receive, you gain a responsibility to transmit.” “To receive, we have to ask.”

Welcome to episode 92 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest Jo-ann Rosen. Together, they discuss individual and collective trauma and how mindfulness and neuroscience can help address it. The conversation further explores the concepts of current and historical trauma, how the nervous system can become overwhelmed by modern stresses, the courage required to be vulnerable and honest about our suffering, how this can lead to deeper connections and understanding within a community – and more. Jo-ann, a psychotherapist with expertise in trauma and mindfulness, shares her personal journey of discovering the Plum Village tradition and how it has informed her understanding of trauma. She emphasizes the importance of collective healing, drawing from her work with marginalized communities and the power of creating safe spaces for people to share their experiences and find support in each other. Brother Phap Huu also shares his experiences of supporting the Plum Village monastic community and retreatants in cultivating stability and healing through mindfulness practices. BioDharma Teacher Jo-ann Rosen, True River of Understanding, Chan Tue Ha (pronouns she/her), received the Lamp of Wisdom (symbolizing the transmission of Dharma from Zen Master to disciple) and authorization to teach from Thich Nhat Hanh in 2012. She practices with the EMBRACE and Victoria Sanghas, is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and teaches and lectures internationally, focusing on inner stability and community resiliency. Her writings center on a neuroscience-informed and trauma-sensitive approach to individual practice and collective awakening. She lives with her partner of 40 years in the oak woodlands of Northern California, US.  Photo by Leslie Kirkpatrick Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources  Live show: The Way Out Is In podcast with special guest Ocean Vuong plumvillage.uk/livepodcast Embrace Sanghahttps://www.embracesangha.org/  Unshakeable: Trauma-Informed Mindfulness for Collective Awakeninghttps://www.parallax.org/product/unshakeable On the Plum Village App > Meditations > Trauma Informed Practice Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing   The Miracle of Mindfulness https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/personal-growth-and-self-care/the-miracle-of-mindfulness-2 Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths  Thich Nhat Hanh: Redefining the Four Noble Truthshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARDko51Xdw  ‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village  Quotes “The nervous system evolves very slowly. It doesn’t change overnight. Ten thousand years is nothing in terms of your nervous system changing. So this nervous system I’m running around in is evolved for a hunter-gatherer. It’s not evolved for being in a car at a stoplight or having somebody demand things of me that I’m incapable of doing. Then I start to be nervous as if I’m going to die. That’s so bewildering. So as I learned more and more about the neuroscience, it was this great relief: ‘I’m not broken. I’m okay. I don’t have to hide what I can’t do.’”  “We’re all suffering from the expectation that we can function in this crazy world when our nervous system is not made for unrelenting stresses. And when we experience unrelenting stresses without good social support, our nervous system is overwhelmed and expresses that in a variety of ways. But the first line of what this neuroscience stuff can do is make us realize that we’re acting normally in a very tragic situation that we’re just not made for.”  “I really shy away from the word ‘trauma’, because it has a very particular spin right now. That’s not to say that deep-trauma therapists and super astute neuroscientists in labs and scanners, et cetera, aren’t making a huge contribution to the understanding of trauma. But I would like to take the word out and instead say, ‘We’re dealing with things that we’re not built for.’” “To put it crudely, the nervous system creates certain states of mind that are purely about well-being – and we can savor those. But then we have certain states of mind which require more alertness and more activity in our bodies. That’s not bad; we have all the mental formations in there and can handle it without being carried away. And one of the things that neuroscience can bring to our understanding of Thay’s teachings is a little better sense of, ‘What does it mean to be carried away? How can I tell when I’m carried away?’ Because that’s really foundational in our practice.” “Is our practice something that will heal traumas? Well, sometimes. And sometimes not. So it’s not an ‘either’ or ‘but’; what we’ve been working with is how to help ourselves regulate our nervous systems so we can practice, because practice is so much bigger than any trauma that we have.”  “Mindfulness means that you can be triggered, but know how to be with the emotions that are being triggered – so that you can be a part of the world, engaging with the world, engaging with yourself.”  “To walk together, that’s very healing. To listen together, to feel safe, that’s very healing. And that is teaching our nervous system the feeling of safety, to allow us to also touch our empathy. So, when we see others who are not in safety, we have empathy; we want to do everything in our capacity to transform that part of society.”  “There is no way to healing; healing is the way.”

🎟 Get tickets to the live podcast episode in London. Welcome to episode 91 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by Nho Tran, who, after 17 years as a nun in the Plum Village tradition, is now continuing her spiritual journey as a layperson.  Together, they explore the origins and evolution of the Plum Village tradition: the Buddhist lineage founded by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh (Thay). Thay worked to restore and renew Vietnamese Buddhism, integrating its rich history and diverse influences while increasing the teachings’ accessibility and relevance to the modern world. The participants describe Thay’s openness to adapting practices to different communities’ needs, while maintaining the tradition’s core principles and lineage. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding one’s roots and cultural heritage, and of the flexibility to evolve and innovate within a spiritual tradition, and how these principles led to Thay’s vision of engaged Buddhism, which seeks to address societal issues and cultivate both inner and outer peace.  Among other insights, Nho shares her personal journey of reconnecting with her Vietnamese heritage and identity through Thay’s teachings, while Brother Phap Huu reflects on Thay’s intentional weaving together of the ancient roots of Vietnamese Buddhism with contemporary relevance and accessibility.  Bio: Nho Tran is a scholar, facilitator, and former Buddhist nun in the Plum Village tradition of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. For many years, she lived and practiced in monastic communities across Asia, Europe, and North America, where she cultivated a deep commitment to interbeing, cultural resilience, and the art of mindful living. Nho’s work sits at the intersection of conflict transformation, ethics, and systems thinking. Drawing on her monastic formation and experience across diverse sectors, she supports individuals and communities in navigating difficult conversations, fostering cultural change, and reimagining leadership grounded in compassion and collective wisdom. She holds a joint degree in Cognitive Neuroscience and Religion from the University of Southern California, a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School, and an MA from Harvard University. She is currently a PhD candidate at Harvard’s Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, where her research explores the intersections of religion, ethics, governance, and Vietnamese Buddhist history. Nho teaches negotiation, ethics, and conflict resolution at Harvard, and continues to serve as a bridge between contemplative practice and social transformation. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources  Live show: The Way Out Is In podcast with special guest Ocean Vuong plumvillage.uk/livepodcastInterbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing   James Baldwinhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baldwin  Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths  Thich Nhat Hanh: Redefining the Four Noble Truthshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARDko51Xdw  ‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village  Theravadahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada  Mahayanahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana  Champahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa  Vajrayanahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana  Prajnaparamitahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajnaparamita  Dhyanahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Buddhism  Linjihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linji_school    Pearl S. Buckhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_S._Buck ‘Please Call Me By My True Name’https://plumvillage.org/articles/please-call-me-by-my-true-names-song-poem  Quotes “Is it James Baldwin who says, ‘If you love something dearly, you can love it and, at the same time, critique it with your whole heart’?” “I remember Thay saying that when he met an individual, he never saw that person as themselves alone; he saw the entire lineage of what had brought that person to this present moment.”  “Understanding is another name for love.” “One of the beauties of the teachings of the Buddha is that the monks are also scholars. They love to help articulate the teachings of Buddhism; they love to create lists and they love to categorize things as a means to transmit them. And then the deepest practice is being free from all of that and to see the weaving of all the teachings.” “In the will of our teacher, written to all of us, his monks and nuns students, he said that one of the greatest heritages of Buddhism, of the Buddha’s teaching, is this openness to ever grow, to ever change, and not to believe in a god, a doctrine. That is the only way.”  “Thay once told me that we don’t have time to go and correct people. Instead, we have to develop our liberation and transmit this beautiful teaching to the next generation.” “Thay is very progressive in order for the tree to grow, but very conservative to restore the roots. That is the dance around and in the teachings of the Buddha: the middle way. To meet the present moment, we have to find a pathway that continues to evolve, but we also need to have roots.” “If we are practicing Buddhism, but we’re not practicing inner peace, outer peace, and liberation, then that is not Buddhism. So, Thay’s understanding of Buddhism goes beyond form.” “What is our compass? That is mindfulness. Come back to our awareness of the present moment.”  “Buddhism is made of non-Buddhist elements. Plum Village is made up of non-Plum Village elements – but it does have foundations, and the Four Plum Village seals, which Thay said are our defining way of teaching and practice.” “There is so much richness and goodness in spirituality and in religion because religion is made of non-religious elements.” “If the identity or the moniker of ‘a Buddhist’ gets in the way of the work that I’m trying to do, which is peace and liberation, I will let that go gladly. But it doesn’t mean I’m not a Buddhist, or that I don’t get to tap into the tradition. If that’s getting in the way, if that makes people suffer more, that’s not the name of the game. I’m trying to get to liberation; I’m trying to get to freedom for everyone; I’m trying to get to a place where everyone gets to tap into this endless source of love.”  “The perfection of wisdom is to be able to hold two seemingly contradictory things together in perfect harmony.”

Dear friends, In memory of Joanna Macy, who passed away on July 19th, we are republishing episode #12 of The Way Out Is In podcast series, with an introduction by Jo Confino. A scholar of Buddhism, systems theory, and deep ecology, Joanna Macy (1929 -2025), PhD, was one of the most respected voices in the movements for peace, justice, and ecology. She interweaved her scholarship with learnings from six decades of activism, had written twelve books, and laught an empowerment approach known as the Work That Reconnects.  In episode 12 (November, 2021), presenters Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino were joined by Joanna Macy to discuss the relevance of Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings to the crises we face today as a species; the energy of simplicity; truth-telling and the power of facing the truth; the grounds for transformation; impermanence; interbeing. Joanna recollects what Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings and activism have meant to her, and shares a special meeting with him in the early 1980s, during a UN peace conference, when Thay read one of his essential poems in public for the first time. Joanna’s activism, forged during many campaigns, and her practice and study of Theravada Buddhism, shine through in her priceless advice about facing the current social and ecological crisis, grieving for all creation, and finding the power to deal with the heartbreaking present-day reality. She also addresses how grief and joy can coexist in one person, and how to be present for life even in the midst of struggle.Their conversations will take you from the current “great unravelling” and the “gift of death” to Rilke’s poetry; the magic of love as solution; active hope; the contemporary relevance of the ancient Prophecy of the Shambhala Warriors; the possibility of a “great turning”. And can you guess her aspirations at 92? Could a swing be just the perfect place to discuss the evanescence of life?Brother Phap Huu shares a lesson in patience from Thay, and adds to the teachings of touching suffering, recognizing and embracing the truth, consumption of consciousness, finding balance, and smiling at life.  Jo reads a special translation of one of Rainer Maria Rilke’s Duino Elegies, expands upon some of Joanna’s core books and philosophies, and recollects “irreplaceable” advice about overwork.   The episode ends with a guided meditation by Joanna Macy. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/ And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/  With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/  List of resources   Lotus in a Sea of Fire (1967)https://plumvillage.org/books/1967-hoa-sen-trong-bien-lua-lotus-in-a-sea-of-fire/ Call Me By My True Nameshttps://plumvillage.org/books/call-me-by-my-true-names/ Celestial Bodhisattvashttps://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/buddhas-and-bodhisattvas-celestial-buddhas-and-bodhisattvas Rainer Maria Rilkehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainer_Maria_Rilke  Duino Elegieshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duino_Elegies  The Tenth Elegyhttps://www.tellthestory.co.uk/translatedpoemduino10.html The Book of Hourshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Hours  Satipaṭṭhānahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana  World as Lover, World as Selfhttps://www.parallax.org/product/world-as-lover-world-as-self-a-guide-to-living-fully-in-turbulent-times/ ‘The Shambhala Warrior’https://www.awakin.org/read/view.php?tid=236  The Shambhala Warrior Prophecyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dbM93FALE  Bardohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo  ‘Entering the Bardo’https://emergencemagazine.org/op_ed/entering-the-bardo/  Maitreyahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya  Ho Chi Minhhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh Śūnyatāhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81Svabhava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svabhava Kṣitigarbhahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%A3itigarbha  Parallax Presshttps://www.parallax.org/ Ānāpānasatihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati  Satipaṭṭhānahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana Quotes  “Do not be afraid of feeling pain for the world. Do not be afraid of the suffering, but take it. That’s what a bodhisattva learns to do, and that makes your heart very big.” “Life is only difficult for those who pick and choose. You just take it. And that helps you feel whole, and maybe flying with the birds helps you be with the deep levels of hell. But this is life and it’s all given to us and it’s given free.” “It doesn’t take a poet; all of us can feel that there are times when a shadow passes over our mood and we taste the tears. Taste the tears. They’re salty. It’s the living Earth. We are part of this.”  “All Rilke says is, ‘Give me the time so I can love the things.’ As if that’s the great commandment. So I want more time to do what I’m made to do. Why else do we have these hearts with more neurons in them than our brains? Why else are we given eyes that can see the beauty of this world and ears that can hear such beautiful poetry? And lungs that can breathe the air. We have to use these things for tasting and loving our world. And if she’s ailing, now is the time to love her more.” “You are the environment; the environment is not outside of you.” “We are in a space without a map. With the likelihood of economic collapse and climate catastrophe looming, it feels like we are on shifting ground, where old habits and old scenarios no longer apply. In Tibetan Buddhism, such a space or gap between known worlds is called a bardo. It is frightening. It is also a place of potential transformation. As you enter the bardo, there facing you is the Buddha Akshobhya. His element is Water. He is holding a mirror, for his gift is Mirror Wisdom, reflecting everything just as it is. And the teaching of Akshobhya’s mirror is this: Do not look away. Do not avert your gaze. Do not turn aside. This teaching clearly calls for radical attention and total acceptance.”“We all have an appointment, and that appointment is with life. And if we can touch that in each moment, our life will become more beautiful when we allow ourselves to arrive at that appointment.” “Even in despair, we have to enjoy life, because we see life as beautiful; [we see] that planet Earth is still a miracle.” “We know we are still alive, and because we are alive, anything is possible. So let us take care of the situation in a more calm and mindful way.”  “Even wholesome things can become a distraction if you make them take the place of your sheer presence to life.”  “Maybe this really will be the last chapter. But I’m here, and how fortunate I am to be here. And I have imagined that it’s so wonderful to be here.” “Impermanence: the fragrance of our day.”

🎟 Get tickets to the live podcast episode in London. Welcome to episode 90 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by Nho Tran, a nun in the Plum Village tradition for 17 years now continuing her spiritual journey as a layperson.  Together, they explore the profound importance of spiritual friendship in the Buddhist tradition, while Brother Phap Huu and Nho reflect on the personal journey of their decades-long friendship. They discuss the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh on the centrality of community and togetherness in cultivating joy, stability, and liberation; the challenges and growth experienced through friendship; and the importance of deep listening and being present for one another, which allows for vulnerability, honesty, and the freedom to be one’s authentic self.  Bio Nho Tran is a scholar, facilitator, and former Buddhist nun in the Plum Village tradition of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. She spent many years living and practicing in monastic communities across Asia, Europe, and North America, where she cultivated a deep commitment to interbeing, cultural resilience, and the art of mindful living. Nho’s work sits at the intersection of conflict transformation, ethics, and systems thinking. Drawing on her monastic formation and experience across diverse sectors, she supports individuals and communities in navigating difficult conversations, fostering cultural change, and reimagining leadership grounded in compassion and collective wisdom. She holds a joint degree in Cognitive Neuroscience and Religion from the University of Southern California, a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School, and an MA from Harvard University. She is currently a PhD candidate at Harvard’s Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, where her research explores the intersections of religion, ethics, governance, and Vietnamese Buddhist history. Nho teaches negotiation, ethics, and conflict resolution at Harvard, and continues to serve as a bridge between contemplative practice and social transformation. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Live show: The Way Out Is In podcast with special guest Ocean Vuong plumvillage.uk/livepodcastOcean Vuonghttps://www.oceanvuong.com/Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing   Ānanda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80nanda Pali Canonhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pali_Canon  The Three Marks of Existencehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence The Miracle of Mindfulness https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/personal-growth-and-self-care/the-miracle-of-mindfulness-2/ Marahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)Brother Spirithttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-phap-linhThich Nhat Hanh: Redefining the Four Noble Truthshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARDko51XdwMaitreyahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya  Quotes “When we receive a Dharma name, it is almost like a trust that we’re receiving. It is also the intention that a teacher sees our potential in it. And it’s something that is given to us to practice for our whole life.”  “Learn to befriend yourself first, and then learn to be a friend of many.” “Spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual path. It is the entirety of the spirit path.” “Monk, you have to have a good friendship. You have to have good conversations. You have to have good deeds. You have to have good efforts. And then you have a grasp on impermanence.”  “The joy of meditation is daily food.” “One of our teacher Thay’s realizations was that our deepest suffering is loneliness, and it comes from the wrong views of what success is, which is individualistic.”  “Reverence is the nature of my love.” “In true love, there’s freedom.” “True love is being present.” “Understanding is another word for love.” “Mindfulness always has to have an object.”  “There are ways in which, when people hear, ‘Oh, in true love, there is freedom’, they will be like, ‘Oh, freedom means I can do whatever I want.’ There’s a sort of recklessness. And that’s not the type of freedom I’m talking about. I’m talking about some real, raw, internal stuff, where I can show up in this relationship and he can show up in this relationship in his undefended self.” “We have to expand our hearts and our way of being to bring people in, because we need friends.” “Thay said that even if you’re an activist and you’re saving people’s lives and you’re building humanity and rebuilding villages, if you’re doing it from a place of self, of pride and ego: don’t do it. Enter into interbeing; do this because you see them as you, then you can be ‘in service of’.” “A true friend is someone who understands your suffering, who listens deeply without judging and who is capable of being there with you in difficult moments. They don’t try to fix you, they simply sit with you, in mindfulness. This kind of presence is rare and it is a great gift. When you find such a friend, cherish them, because they help you touch the peace and freedom that are already within you.” “The greatest technology we have is each other. These relationships that we have with each other, we keep seeking something else. But the thing that makes us feel like we are living a meaningful life is being seen and acknowledged and recognized by the gaze of another person, the loving gaze of another person.”  “The most powerful spiritual technology is the coming together.”  “I tell people to come to Plum Village, but not to try to learn something. Come here just to be. Because I think our thirst for ‘a fix’ is so powerful now. We’re looking for a spiritual teaching to fix us; we’re looking to fix all of our suffering. And guess what? Some of your suffering, you might not be able to fix it.” 

🎟 Get tickets to the live podcast episode in London. Welcome to episode 89 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino look at one of the foundational teachings of Buddhism: the Three Jewels – the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.  The Buddha is the teacher who, through his own direct experience, found the path to liberation from suffering. The Dharma refers to the teachings and practices that lead to awakening. The Sangha is the community that supports and transmits the Dharma. Their conversation emphasizes the Sangha’s importance as the community that keeps the Buddha’s teachings alive and relevant; the need for communities rooted in the Dharma, with clear practices and guidelines to provide refuge and support spiritual transformation; and more. As usual, the hosts provide examples from their own experiences, as well as stories by or involving Thich Nhat Hanh. Enjoy! Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/  And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Donate to support Plum Village’s reconstruction https://plumvillage.org/donate Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing   Sister Chan Khonghttps://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khongSister Chan Duchttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sr-chan-duc  Fragrant Palm Leaves: Journals 1962-1966https://plumvillage.org/books/1998-neo-ve-cua-y-fragrant-palm-leavesNalanda mahaviharahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda_mahavihara  Buddhahoodhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood Dharma Talks: ‘The Five Skandhas of Grasping and Non-Self​’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/the-five-skandhas-of-grasping-and-non-self%E2%80%8B-dharma-talk-by-br-phap-lai-2018-06-08 Old Path White Cloudshttps://plumvillage.org/books/old-path-white-clouds-2  ‘The Fourteen Mindfulness Trainings’https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/the-14-mindfulness-trainings  Wake Up Networkhttps://plumvillage.org/community/wake-up-young-practitioners Vinayahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya The Hermit and the Wellhttps://plumvillage.org/books/hermit-and-the-well Quotes “When we talk about the first jewel, the Buddha, we have to understand that each and every one of us has Buddha nature.”  “Where’s my Buddha nature? My Buddha nature is my mindfulness shining in, shining out, shining near, shining far.”  “The relationship between teacher and student is companionship on the path. If a teacher understands that his true belonging and his true continuation is his students, then he would do everything in his, her, or their capacity to transmit their wisdom. So the Buddha Jewel is to acknowledge that this tradition has a root teacher. And it comes from direct experience and embraces and embodies the awakened nature that each and every one of us has. A good teacher, a good Buddha, can allow us to touch our Buddha nature.”  “Buddhism doesn’t mean ignoring your own traditional religious roots. And, as it’s not considered a religion, that Buddha nature can exist alongside your religious history. So if you’re Jewish or Christian, you don’t need to say, ‘Oh, I’m a Buddhist’; you can continue with your own traditions. And Thay said that it’s so important to stay rooted in your traditions, because that is your individual ancestry. And buddhahood doesn’t contradict that, doesn’t overlay it, but actually comes alongside it to support it.”  “Our faith drives our practice. And our practice and the insights we get from our practice drive our faith.”  “Buddha nature is ever-growing. It is very organic, it is conditioned.”

🎟 Get tickets to the live podcast episode in London. Welcome to episode 88 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino discuss one of the Buddha’s key teachings: the four immeasurable minds. When cultivated, these four qualities – love, compassion, joy, and equanimity – can help heal negative emotions and lead to a more fulfilling, compassionate life.  Both hosts share personal stories and insights about how to apply these teachings, and how to help transform suffering and cultivate a deeper understanding and connection with ourselves and those around us. They emphasize the importance of self-love, deep listening, and embracing interbeing, as well as the power of small acts of kindness, the role of playfulness, the wisdom of non-discrimination in leading a more fulfilling life, and more. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Donate to support Plum Village’s reconstruction https://plumvillage.org/donate Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing   The Four Immeasurable Mindshttps://tnhaudio.org/tag/four-immeasurable-minds Dharma Talk: ‘The Four Immeasurable Minds – The Four Elements of True Love’ with Sister Dieu Nghiem (Sister Jina)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKXJIdhJJHo Brahmaviharahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara Sariputrahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C4%81riputra Sister Chan Khonghttps://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khong Maitrihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitr%C4%AB Order of Interbeinghttps://orderofinterbeing.org/  Trevor Noahhttps://www.trevornoah.com/about ‘Listening to Namo Avalokiteshvara’https://plumvillage.app/listening-to-namo-avalokiteshvara/  Upekshahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upeksha_(Indian_thought)  Quotes “If you learn to practice love, compassion, joy, and equanimity, you will know how to heal the illnesses of anger, sorrow, insecurity, sadness, hatred, loneliness, and unhealthy attachments.”  “You have to learn to be like the Earth. The Earth doesn’t discriminate; it accepts all and is the mother of all.” “Understanding is love, and it’s the most profound love because, when you understand, there’s no longer a barrier between you and me as separate people.”  “The safest foundation is understanding. When you have that, you can work tirelessly because your understanding is your compass. And it can give you so much insight and so many ways of bridging the separation.”  “One word can release suffering, one action can save a life.”  “Looking with eyes of compassion, we can listen deeply to the cries of the world.” “There is a truth in Buddhism that, no matter what condition you’re going to find yourself in, suffering’s going to be there; your mind is going to create moments of ‘you’re not enough’.”  “Why not be soft? There is so much strength in softness.”  “Thay talked about how we can find joy in everything, that we can find joy in a pebble on the beach, we can find joy in a flower. We can find joy in someone’s smile. We can find joy in the fact that we’re alive. We can find joy in the fact that we can see all the textures and colors in the world. It doesn’t have to be a big thing, but it is the recognition of what it is to be alive.”  “I love the idea that one smile from somebody can restore our faith in humanity. Often, we think we have to act in big ways; that we have to carry out bold actions to create change. But one smile can genuinely save someone’s life. As Thay said, one small action can save a life; even a smile can change a life. We underestimate the power of the small things in life. We’re taught to see things in grand ways, but, often, seeing things in the small ways can be more important.”  “Non-discrimination is the wisdom that we all are children of this Earth and we manifest on this Earth and we will return to the Earth.”  “We should never be too sure of ourselves, our views, and our feeling of righteousness, because that only leads to more division.” “When you touch these elements of true love, loving kindness, compassion, and joy, your interbeing becomes stronger. Because if you have joy and you’ve tasted it, don’t you want others to have joy?”  “Non-discrimination is for the more-than-human world as well; it’s for all beings. Because it’s very easy to separate ourselves from the natural world and to forget that, actually, the health of the trees is our health and the health of the oceans is our health; that, actually, the love that Mother Earth gives to us is also the love that we can offer back. So there’s a real feeling of reciprocity there.”