Storm News 9/14/2026: Ikon, Indy Pass Shuffle; Top 5 Midwest Ski Areas; Race to Open

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast thinks that yelling “PIZZA!” and “FRENCH FRY!” at a 2-year-old superman straightlining down a green slope is a highly effective ski instruction technique. If you agree, please sign up for my newsletter:WhoBrian Bensch, founder of Snow SchoolersDate recordedSeptember 24, 2026About Snow SchoolersSnow Schoolers, per its website, is an “independent ski school program” that teaches lessons “at any mountain where we’ve established a revenue-sharing partnership with the ski area.” Skiers sign up for lessons on their Pet Rectangles, like this:Why I interviewed himThat sounds pretty neat, right? Let me go see if Snow Schoolers teaches at my favorite mountain. Snow Schoolers probably does not teach at your favorite mountain. Unless your favorite mountain is 222-vertical-foot Granlibakken, which is about five feet away from 6,000-acre Palisades Tahoe, or 100 vertical-foot Frisco Adventure Park, tucked off highway 9, after 1.5 million-ish skiers exit I-70 on their way to nearby Breckenridge.That is not an indictment of small ski areas, which I love, or Snow Schoolers’ business model, which I also love. Rather, it’s my way of saying that the only way to sign up for ski school at Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge is through Palisades Tahoe or Breckenridge. With the strange, grandfathered-in exception of the strange, cobbled-together ski bazaar that is Summit at Snoqualmie in Washington, all major American ski areas (so far as I know) operate with a monopoly over ski school operations on their property. In ways subtle and aggressive, they police and ban rogue instructors who would offer discounted lessons on resort property.There are probably ways to break this system, either through the courts or legislative amendment of the Forest Service leases that 125 U.S. ski areas operate on. Such change sounds radical only in an American context - most European ski areas already operate with multiple independent competing ski schools onsite. Over the past 20 years, technology has challenged monopolies across American commerce. Sports and concert tickets and taxi rides offer two prime examples of power shifting from one central operator to many operators, with benefits and drawbacks for the consumer. Perhaps we will get there with ski school. For now, I see a more practical path for an asset-light, app-based, independent ski school like Snow Schoolers - as the costs of labor, utilities, infrastructure, and insurance pile up, perhaps outsourcing the operation of a ski school is more practical for many smaller, independent ski areas than establishing and maintaining one of their own. That is what you get at Granlibakken and Frisco: Snow Schoolers pays the ski areas a share of each lesson, essentially as rent for the right to operate a ski school on their property. And Granlibakken and Friso don’t have to worry about hiring instructors and organizing lessons. There are probably 100 under-resourced ski areas in America where this model could work tomorrow. Brian and I discuss why Snow Schoolers works where it does, and why the model has been slow to spread.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today founded Snowschoolers in 2014 with the mission to make skiing and riding affordable and accessible for average Americans.00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:11.000Stuart Winchester: and to pay snow sports pros a sustainable living wage.00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: Today, Snowschoolers operates at Grand Lebakken in Lake Tahoe, and Frisco Adventure Park in Colorado, two small ski areas.00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Last year, Snow Schoolers hosted approximately 6,000 students. He is a good friend of the Storm. He is Brian Bench. Brian, welcome to the Storm. You reached out to me very shortly after I launched in 2019 or 20, and we’ve been talking for years, and you’ve helped me out a lot.00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.000Stuart Winchester: With the…00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:45.000Stuart Winchester: digital side of things, which I’m not so good at, so it’s awesome to finally get you on and talk some snow schoolers. How you doing today?00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000Brian Bensch: Doing lovely. Can’t complain. Always busy, never bored.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:52.000Stuart Winchester: And that is… yeah, that is a picture out your window of Tahoe, right?00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:00.000Brian Bensch: Yes, that is a, it’s called Maggie’s Peak, but that’s looking at the little lake just next to Emerald Bay.00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, which would be sort of north side of the lake, so you’d be looking…00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.000Brian Bensch: Oh.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.000Brian Bensch: South Tahoe, kind of on the other side of the corner, like, across from Heavenly.00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, south, right? I was… I was backwards. So… so on the… up the left side, there would be Homewood, and then up the right side would be Heavenly and Diamond Peak, and at the top is, like.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.000Brian Bensch: Correct.00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.000Brian Bensch: Mostly correct.00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Or North Star? North Star, Northwood. Okay, alright, uh, before I hurt myself, let’s just get into this. So, so Brian.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.000Brian Bensch: Well, we’ll get you out to Tahoe soon enough, and then your Tahoe geography will get.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:31.000Stuart Winchester: It’s been a minute. So…00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: What is broken about American ski schools, and how did you try to fix it with snow schoolers?00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:45.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. So I would say similar to, you know.00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.000Brian Bensch: The the general diatribe about, you know.00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:55.000Brian Bensch: The ski industry being kind of broken with lift tickets too expensive and climate change is gonna end the world.00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:07.000Brian Bensch: Not everything is broken, but particularly the most front and center in your face resorts that you know everyone hears about, and you know, makes the quote unquote mainstream news has been broken for a while.00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:15.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, the gist is, if you roll up to, you know, a Tier 1 destination resort.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000Brian Bensch: Brooke, uh…00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:32.000Brian Bensch: Not only is lift ticket price what it is, but if you are looking for a group lesson, you’re looking at a couple 100 bucks. And if you’re looking for a private lesson, you’re lucky if you can find anything that is under 1000 today. When we started Snow Schoolers, I remember telling people like, you know, a private lesson is $700 or $800.00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.000Brian Bensch: Well, now it’s roughly double that.00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:51.000Brian Bensch: And I started teaching skiing back in college at the Dartmouth Skiway shout out to Mark and the team there, and you know I thought it was the best job ever making 12 bucks an hour in college, but it is still a minimum wage hourly job.00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.000Brian Bensch: Despite the high margins that resorts take.00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, wait, wait, let’s, let’s pause right there. So over a thousand a day for a lesson.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: patrollers are making… I think at the Tier 1 resorts, they’re probably making more than minimum wage. I think it’s probably more in… at least in the 20s.00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, the, the, go ahead.00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.000Stuart Winchester: Plus tips, but, but.00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:19.000Stuart Winchester: Still, right, so you figure it’s $1,200 a day for a lesson, and the instructor’s getting, you know, $150 of that, or something. What… why…00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: Why does that model even exist? Like, who would even do that?00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.000Brian Bensch: Out.00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000Brian Bensch: Because…00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:31.000Stuart Winchester: Like, who would work for that? Like, when you, right? Like, why not just give your own lessons?00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:44.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, well, and there’s two sides… two sides of the mark, and I, uh… outside of my passions for skiing, I consider myself sort of a marketplace, you know, guru of sorts. And, you know, on the supply side, or, like, the staffing side.00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.000Brian Bensch: could ever imagine, and there’s a reason why people love to teach skiing.00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000Brian Bensch: One of the, I would say.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, I’m sorry, you froze there for probably about, like, 5 seconds. Um, I don’t know if you’re on a hard line, or you have good Wi-Fi, or…00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.000Brian Bensch: Okay.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:11.000Brian Bensch: It’s Tahoe Wi-Fi. But it’s generally fine, unless it goes out and flickers, but…00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Is it?00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.000Stuart Winchester: It’s Tahoe Wi-Fi.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.000Stuart Winchester: you…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:19.000Brian Bensch: I can close a couple tabs, that might help. Or we can just… I don’t want you to… I know editing is tough.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.000Stuart Winchester: No, no, no, you, you, uh, can you plug in, possibly?00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.000Brian Bensch: I don’t have an Ethernet.00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:31.000Stuart Winchester: You know, okay, alright. Um, yeah, let’s just, yeah, try to close some stuff, and we’ll keep going, and at worst case, you can, uh, go off screen.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000Brian Bensch: Yep.00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.000Brian Bensch: Sure.00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:38.000Brian Bensch: To pick back up the… the kind of…00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:54.000Brian Bensch: Why is it, you know, possible for a lesson to cost $1,200 and the instructor only keeps 20% of that? There’s two components to it. The first is that, you know, historically there was a glut of ski instructors going back into the 60s, 70s, 80s.00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:10.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, the, the quintessential ski bum, uh, is and was a great job, particularly for people that, you know, get the addiction that I know we both have. Um, and so, you know, lessons didn’t used to be this expensive, um, just like lift tickets didn’t used to be this expensive.00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:29.000Brian Bensch: Um, and so just like being a lifty, being a ski instructor was, you know, maybe a slight step above, you know, requires more training, but it has always been the sort of an entry-level hourly position. Um, and it’s certainly not the federal minimum wage at most resorts. Uh, when Vail came out, uh, post-COVID with the $20 an hour kind of cross-board raise.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:41.000Brian Bensch: Uh, that was great for the industry, not just, you know, Vail Resorts staff. Um, and… but the prevailing wage for, you know, first-year ski instructor is certainly in that $20 an hour range today.00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, we try to do things differently.00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right, but okay, so, but fundamentally to get at the…00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:55.000Stuart Winchester: at this dynamic. I’m a ski instructor. Let’s say I’m a great ski instructor, right? And everybody loves me.00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.000Stuart Winchester: And I… I can see that…00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:07.000Stuart Winchester: you know, Northstar is charging $1,000 for a lesson, and they’re paying me $25 an hour. I don’t know what Northstar pays, so feel free to correct me, Northstar, but…00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.000Stuart Winchester: Why don’t I as an instructor?00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:25.000Stuart Winchester: just say, well, I’m just gonna go on Facebook and advertise my services, and say, meet me at the Lyft at Northstar, and I’ll give you a lesson for $200 for the day, because then I’m making more, and… and we’re just… and the consumer’s getting a better deal.00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:34.000Stuart Winchester: And then we established this one-on-one relationship. Why doesn’t that marketplace exist? Why do ski areas exist?00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:42.000Stuart Winchester: How are they able to do this weird market dynamic, which sounds fundamentally unfair to the instructor?00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:57.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. Well, that question is certainly more or less exactly what I pondered 10 years ago. And how I got into this fun little project called Snowschoolers.00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:03.000Brian Bensch: was the realization that, oh my god, like, why does this exist? Um, and, you know, and…00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:08.000Brian Bensch: 10 years ago, Uber and Airbnb had just become kind of a mainstream thing.00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.000Brian Bensch: Um, and so I was like, oh.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:28.000Brian Bensch: I wonder if we could just connect instructors to students directly and have a little marketplace for ski school. At the time, I knew nothing about, you know, special use permits from the Forest Service and the ski industry broadly. You know, I’d grown up skiing, but I was just a lay consumer skier. The reality is, and very similar to.00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:36.000Brian Bensch: you know a lot of the work you’ve done this summer going into Forest Service kind of history. The special use permit system.00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:54.000Brian Bensch: effectively grants the resort, at least on Federal lands, where the special use permit exists, a micro monopoly over all business activity at their mountain. And it doesn’t have to be that way. If you do go over to Europe, it is a much more laissez-faire free market.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:07.000Brian Bensch: Um, and most major resorts in Europe have at least four to six, you know, uh, ski schools that operate and compete, and, you know, the average lesson prices are roughly a third, and instructors keep, you know, 50 to 60% of lessons.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:19.000Brian Bensch: And so it doesn’t have to be the way it is. But at at the core it is. It is because resorts have the legal right to be the only ski school of record. And.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:30.000Stuart Winchester: Right, so just to get ahead of the people who like to point out details, so North Star was a weird example for me to use because it’s on private land, it’s not on Forest Service land. However, it’s owned by Vail Resorts, and I think what you’re saying is.00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:44.000Stuart Winchester: even though not every U.S. skier is on U.S. Forest Service land, 125 of them are, it… the fact that that encompasses the majority of our ski terrain has normalized the culture of one mountain, one ski school. Is that fair?00:24:44.000 --> 00:25:01.000Brian Bensch: Correct. And there is maybe a dirty little secret of capitalism that monopolies are great businesses. So Northstar does not want six other ski schools competing and driving the price down because ski school is very, very lucrative to the at least traditional big resort ski model.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.000Stuart Winchester: So, disruptor Brian comes out and says, alright guys, get out of the way, I am gonna change the world with.00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:19.000Stuart Winchester: snow schoolers and my Uber for skiing app, which I know you don’t want to call it anymore, but nonetheless, since you brought up the analogy, let’s go back to 2014.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:22.000Stuart Winchester: Take us into it. What did you do and what happened?00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:32.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. In short, I would say, did a little bit of experimenting with that idea. And, you know, by the end of the first season.00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:43.000Brian Bensch: Learned pretty quickly that the ski resort management does not like the idea. And if you want to be able to ski at places that you love to ski.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:55.000Brian Bensch: it’s probably a good idea to not, uh, not poke the bear too much, so to speak. Um, and so, uh, that first kind of pilot program very much led me into the, uh.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:14.000Brian Bensch: and and this it was always a snooze. This has been a side project of mine for a while. It’s a I would call it a thriving small business. That 1st year I I pretended it was a startup, or I called it a startup, but never took funding and you know that 1st pilot program helped me realize that the only way, if I was going to turn this into real business.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:27.000Brian Bensch: was to find a way that was mutually beneficial for both resorts and instructors, uh, and obviously the students. Um, and that led me to, you know, how can I create a revenue share model.00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:41.000Brian Bensch: Uh, where by bringing more new skiers to the mountain, everyone benefits. Um, the resort gets to share the revenue, uh, the student gets a cheaper lesson, and the instructor gets higher pay. Um, and, uh…00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:54.000Brian Bensch: you know, by the time 2016 rolled around I was ready to quit my corporate job and give it a role, and so moved to Tahoe. And you know, without the.00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:04.000Brian Bensch: A gentleman named Brian Schilling out in Homewood. Without him taking sort of a chance on me, snow schoolers would not exist. But Homewood was coming off.00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:22.000Brian Bensch: we’ll say a typical bad snow year, and had to let go a lot of their ski school staff the year prior, because I think they were open for, like, 40 days that season, and hiring was a huge priority. Like, they were rebuilding a ski school from scratch, and the reality was the pitch that resonated with Homewood.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:37.000Brian Bensch: was much less about, can we, like, you know, offer more affordable lessons and increase gear visits that way, but we need, like, we don’t know how to hire instructors, we need a bunch of instructors, and this Uber model of.00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:52.000Brian Bensch: uh, pseudo-freelance instructors was attractive to them. Um, and, you know, I told them that, like, I had put up a couple ads and had, you know, 20 people apply within a few weeks, and they’re like, ah, that’s interesting. Um, and so that led to our first season, uh, which I would say was.00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:06.000Brian Bensch: uh, not a hands-down success at Homewood, um, but I skied nearly 100 days, and it ended up being, uh, Tahoe’s second best winter of at least my young adulthood, um, and, you know, you know, no regrets at all.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, Homo’s a serious mountain. I mean, right on the lake, it’s dramatic, it has pretty nice chair lifts. But that didn’t end up being the future, right?00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.000Stuart Winchester: How did Homewood break down, and how did you…00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: reassemble…00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Stuart Winchester: like, sort of rethink the business, uh, on a different scale, and I mean both, like, going smaller to get bigger, if that makes sense.00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:44.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. So the core hypothesis of snow schoolers was always kind of twofold. If you make lessons.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:52.000Brian Bensch: more interest or demand and potential customers when lessons are affordable.00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:09.000Brian Bensch: I think the same thing is true of lift tickets, and that’s why, you know, the places that are still offering $700 lift tickets are thriving. But affordable lessons drives an outsized increase in, you know, lesson visits. And if you pay instructors well, there’s no shortage of instructors you can find if you’re willing to pay them well.00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:25.000Brian Bensch: What we didn’t get right in that 1st year at Homewood was the affordable lesson side of things. We were able to teach lessons at Homewood, but we were offering the normal prices from the year before, which were more or less, I would say, 10% below what Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows up the road was charging.00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:41.000Brian Bensch: Um, and we were not… yeah, we taught a total of, I think, 50 lessons that season, um, which was, you know, better than zero, but certainly not enough to get me too, too excited. Um, and the kind of going smaller to get bigger.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.000Brian Bensch: Uh, it was a function of, uh…00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:57.000Brian Bensch: my my tiny little hill in the woods called Grand Lebakken, that, as someone who’d grown up skiing Tahoe, I had literally never heard of. I think I’d probably skied in Tahoe 500 days at that point.00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.000Brian Bensch: Um, but, uh…00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:02.000Stuart Winchester: And it’s right by Palisades, right? It’s, like, right across the street, basically.00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:17.000Brian Bensch: Not quite across the street. It is two minutes from the lake, but you can’t see the lake from Grand Labaquin. So it’s literally like tucked in the way, tucked kind of behind a hill. It is between Alpine Meadows and Homewood, if you look at the map. And it’s roughly like 10 minutes from both of them.00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:23.000Brian Bensch: Um, and as I was winding down that first season with Homewood, I challenged myself, um.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:39.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, tried to put it on social media, but no one really cared to do a March Madness Sweet 16 circuit, because there, at the time, were 16 unique mountains in Tahoe, and Grand Lebakken was one of the last stops on that circuit, and I forget who told me it existed.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:44.000Brian Bensch: Um, but, you know, Grand Lubakken is not a ski resort. Grand Lubakken is a ski.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.000Brian Bensch: Kind of known for its lodging and accommodations business.00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.000Stuart Winchester: Hey, Brian, you, uh, you just froze again, but you said Grand Lebakken is a ski…00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.000Stuart Winchester: So just start over from Grand Lebakken is a ski.00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:13.000Brian Bensch: Sure. Grand Labaca is not a ski resort. It is a ski hill or a ski area, as Stuart likes to say. It is two surface lifts. It is roughly 20 acres from the bottom of the hill of Grand Labaca. You can see the entire hill, the entire mountain. What you see is what you get.00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:30.000Brian Bensch: It is not, I would say, exclusively for beginners. The Poma that goes to the top, and it’s, I think, roughly 225 feet. I would put it at a solid, you know, a Jackson Hole blue. It is at least a 25 to 30 degree slope.00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:46.000Brian Bensch: and I have seen 12 year olds straight line it and almost die. So it is. It is certainly like there’s enough terrain that you could do ski race like training on it, and we do a little bit of that in the winter on weekdays. But it is a ski hill.00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:57.000Brian Bensch: Um, not at all, sort of, no bells and whistles, no high-speed quads, um, just a bunny lift, uh, rope toe, and a, you know, slightly more advanced poma that goes to the top.00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:09.000Brian Bensch: And, uh, spent a good afternoon with, uh, the Parson family back in spring 2017, and I was like, this price is pretty cool, this is cute, and told them about my ideas for ski school.00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000Stuart Winchester: And who are they?00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:25.000Brian Bensch: Chris Parson and Ron Parson. Ron is Chris’s father, and has owned the mountain for quite a while, and what Grand Lombachman is known for is, it is more of an accommodations center. It’s a lodge and conference center.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:42.000Brian Bensch: Uh, with roughly, I think, 150-ish units. Um, and the ski hill is an amenity, uh, along with their pool, along with their spa, along with, like, you know, their, you know, uh, dining areas and so forth. Um, and they’ve operated the ski area and sled hill, um, for…00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:55.000Brian Bensch: I think Ron is — the Parson family is going on maybe 30 years. I hope to convince him that he should come on the pod at some point. But he is —.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:12.000Brian Bensch: Their family, you know, is the quintessential mom and pop ski hill ski area sort of operators. When I met them, ski school was run mostly with Chris, who had sort of two group lesson slots a day and a piece of paper for people to sign up in the morning.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:28.000Brian Bensch: And they were like, you know, we could probably be more organized with this. And I was like, yeah, I think I can help you a little bit. And then the season ended and I went home, had made no money. So, you know, my day job has been in marketing.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:40.000Brian Bensch: for big and small tech companies for a while. Um, and so I went and had to get a big boy tech job again to, you know, pay for rent. Um, and my Tahoe ski lease was up for the season. So, I went back home.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:47.000Brian Bensch: you know, wasn’t sure if Snow Solutions was going to continue, kind of just assumed it was a one-year thing, and, you know.00:33:47.000 --> 00:34:03.000Brian Bensch: you know, hadn’t talked a ton with Homewood, but I knew, like we weren’t gonna you know the business wasn’t great. But fast forward October 1st roughly, this time of year the Gm. Gives me a call out of the blue, and I pick up. I’m now at my new day job, and I just play it cool. And I’m like, Oh, yeah.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:19.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, no, we’ll run your ski school this winter. Grant Lebakken did, yeah. So the GM of Grant Lebakken picked up and said, hey, you know, we love meeting you in the spring, and you know, winter’s around the corner. Let’s talk about, you know, what needs to be done for you guys to run ski school for us this year.00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.000Stuart Winchester: Grand Labaquin?00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Right.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:23.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I remember going home that night being like, huh.00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:33.000Brian Bensch: This is not going to be easy because I’m working 40 to 50 hours a week now at my new job. But skiing in this space is what I love to do.00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:51.000Brian Bensch: You know, at one point, a quote on the website was the Confucius quote, “If you find a job you love, you’ll never work another day.” And, you know, I said, yes, you know, porque no las dos, let’s do both. Didn’t tell my employer at the time.00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:06.000Brian Bensch: Because, you know, don’t want to give them reason to question how much time you’re putting in. But basically worked, you know, spent many nights, and I was a bad developer at the time. So everything snow schoolers is kind of built in-house from a code perspective.00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:55.000Stuart Winchester: Been there?00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:23.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, I just, every evening from 6 p.m. to midnight, I’d be plugging away to build the Grand Le Bacon kind of new system that we built that first year. And it worked. You know, year two, we taught.00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:38.000Brian Bensch: I think 300 plus lessons, and we did five times more revenue than year one at Homewood. And again, I was, you know, I only taught probably 2% of lessons because I had my full-time job. Christmas was a fun disaster where.00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:47.000Brian Bensch: all of a sudden, we were sold out every single day, and I was like, uh, I guess I need to figure out how to stop selling lessons, uh, because I hadn’t really built that into the model the first year, because we were never sold out.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.000Stuart Winchester: Ah, okay, okay.00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:56.000Brian Bensch: But, you know, we made it work and lots of families had amazing, you know, first experiences learning to slide on snow.00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: So let me zoom out and just tell you why I think this makes sense from my point of view, and then you can color that in with with how Graham Lebakken actually achieved it. I look at…00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.000Stuart Winchester: something like the Icon Pass, and they have a partnership with Jackson Hole.00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:22.000Stuart Winchester: but Altera doesn’t have to own or operate Jackson Hole, and if a lift breaks, it’s not Altera’s problem, but they get the benefit of Jackson Hole.00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.000Stuart Winchester: on their IconPass. Uh…00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:36.000Stuart Winchester: this model that Grand Lebakken has, there used to be hundreds of ski areas like this, just attached to resorts all across. In this part of the country, there were a ton of them, in the Catskills and the Poconos, and…00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.000Brian Bensch: Okay.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: most of them, I mean, they frankly weren’t super interesting hills, but they…00:36:42.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Those resorts found that as God running a ski hill became more complex, it wasn’t worth keeping all those pieces and parts as an amenity. So in the case of, of Grand Le Bacon, I, I imagine, you know, you have a couple Pomas, so your market is probably like people who wanted to come to Tahoe in the winter, but aren’t necessarily skiers, but maybe want to try it.00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Right? Because no one’s like, hmm, should I go to Palisades or Grand Lebakken today, right? Like it’s, it’s a very unique place. So, but Grand Lebakken, I mean, if they’re going to have a hill, that means they also have to have, you know, a rental shop and they have to have a ski school and instructors. This basically.00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.000Stuart Winchester: Takes the whole ski school, all that labor.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000Stuart Winchester: all the infrastructure.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.000Stuart Winchester: out of it, and I’d imagine you just…00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: Pay, you know, you just write them a check like a lease, basically like a forest service lease where a skier operates and they, they pay based on what they make to the government. So it, it seems to me like ski areas would love that. And I, and I could think of 100 small ski areas in the country where that would work. That’s how I’m understanding this is that.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.000Stuart Winchester: Is that fair? And…00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, I I would say you more or less hit the nail on the head.00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:03.000Brian Bensch: The and and the models the operating model that we’ve sort of developed, that we are sort of most in favor of is, we do ski school. We take full responsibility for ski school and nothing else.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000Brian Bensch: we’ve we’ve we’re not obligated, or we don’t have to stick with that model entirely. And at our Frisco location, Colorado. We also do all of rentals.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000Brian Bensch: And but ski school is what sort of what we love, what we care about.00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:34.000Brian Bensch: And you know, in in other past smaller partnerships we’ve done. We were responsible for even more of operations, grooming and parking and snow removal is.00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:40.000Brian Bensch: like very underappreciated. How time consuming, expensive those can be.00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:50.000Brian Bensch: And so I I am very thankful that Gran Lebakken and our partners at Frisco take responsibility for for grooming, and particularly grooming snowmaking.00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:00.000Brian Bensch: um, and sort of the general operations, uh, lift operations and so forth, are… are never gonna be our sweet spot. Um, and we would happily run the, like.00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:06.000Brian Bensch: like ski school is often the biggest human part of the organization, because you have a bunch of instructors.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000Brian Bensch: Uh, and you have to, like, you know, herding cats doesn’t happen without effort. Um, and scheduling does not happen, uh, without good software, and a human to supervise the software. Um, and so, yeah, that’s been our sweet spot. Um, I likewise, uh, think that there are at least.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:35.000Brian Bensch: a few dozen, if not hundreds, of other small ski areas, whether they’re surface lift only, or just small with, like, a single fixed grip lift, that, um, that want to do a better ski school program, and we would love to talk to them.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: So, so Grand Labakin you’ve been with ever since, so I’m assuming they’ve been pretty happy with it. Let’s jump across the country to another really weird ski area that probably people don’t know exists, that we’ve been talking about, which is Frisco, which is… you pass by it on the way to Breckenridge, but you won’t even see it. It’s so small, like.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: You have to drive around this weird road and it’s, you know, underneath a hill. And I’ve not skied there, but I stopped by after they were closed, uh, a couple years ago. So, so that is not attached to a resort. That’s, I think, a city park. So you have a completely different demo there.00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:19.000Stuart Winchester: So who is Frisco trying to serve, and how did you meet that need? And it seems like you’ve had a long-term relationship with them as well.00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:29.000Brian Bensch: Yes. So we’re now going to our fifth season with the town of Frisco. And so, yes, it is a municipally managed ski area and tubing park.00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:42.000Brian Bensch: You can’t miss the tubing element when you’re driving from getting off I-70 and heading to Breckenridge, but very few people will know that there’s beginner ski and snowboarding there as well. I’ve been to Colorado a good handful of times.00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:48.000Brian Bensch: definitely drove by it once and didn’t know they were skiing there. And you know a mutual acquaintance.00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:01.000Brian Bensch: post-COVID, when I was talking about, you know what, you know, the world’s going remote, maybe I can just, you know, expand snow schoolers without me physically being there all the time. Um, and I was like, huh, have you heard of Frisco? I was like, no, what.00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:07.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, that was probably two months before our first successful season with Frisco.00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:22.000Brian Bensch: Um, the audience they’re serving, to your question, is not nearly as local as you might expect for being, like, a town-run hill. Uh, we certainly have some local programs, but their audience is Summit County visitors.00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:15.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:35.000Brian Bensch: Who primarily are either not skiers yet, not skiers and swimmers yet, or are brand new and want to get their sort of their ski legs on because someone invited them on a trip to Breck or trip to Copper.00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:52.000Brian Bensch: and they’re like, well, I’ve never skied before. You know a lifting. It’s expensive, less expensive. B like, can I get my legs like, you know, get my footing somewhere, and we are smack dab in the middle of, you know, 4 major resorts. In addition to Copper Breck, you’ve got a base and and.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:59.000Brian Bensch: and Keystone around the corner, and we are the affordable alternative for Summit County visitors.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:03.000Stuart Winchester: It’s expensive for a rope tail, by the way, it’s like $40 for a lift ticket.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.000Brian Bensch: Um, and the town…00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.000Brian Bensch: Sure. Expenses is very relative. That is fair.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, okay, so, so…00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: you established… that’s funny, that’s not at all what I expected. I thought it would be, like, bust loads of kids, but I guess they probably have deals with Breckenridge or something. So you’ve had success.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:35.000Stuart Winchester: at Frisco and at Grand Labaca, and you’ve had a couple others that you’ve been in and out of other than Homewood. Tell us about those, and what did work, and ultimately what didn’t work about them.00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:46.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. Let’s go with — let’s stick with the Colorado trend first, and then we’ll come back to Tahoe. There’s an awesome little mountain.00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:01.000Brian Bensch: that, I think you know, and and didn’t. As you think about your the last ski resorts to open or ski areas to open. I actually think Hoedown Hill is the most recently opened new ski area in the country. It’s about an hour north of Denver.00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:06.000Brian Bensch: in Windsor, Colorado, and we worked with them for their 1st 2 seasons.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:15.000Brian Bensch: Um, and we did not work with them last year. Um, still in touch with them, um, but they are a brand new ski area that is, I would say, a…00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.000Brian Bensch: a privately…00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:26.000Brian Bensch: run like you. You could say there’s similarities to the Grand Lebakken business model, but on a whole other level of, I would say.00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:40.000Brian Bensch: affluence and like target demo. The Hoedown Hill facility is attached to the Raindance National Golf Course, which I’m not a golfer, but I hear it’s a tier one destination golf course.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:49.000Brian Bensch: They want to build, you know, 4 seasons esque hotel there, and it is a we’ll say a bourgeois experience that they’re going for with some, you know.00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:06.000Brian Bensch: you know, a good culture vibe there. And I think so long as the management team remains committed, it will continue to grow. They are at the IndyPass, so shout out there, like, it’s worth a quick visit if you’re flying into Denver with your IndyPass.00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.000Brian Bensch: Um, and in our first two seasons there, um.00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.000Brian Bensch: We did, we did.00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:19.000Brian Bensch: we did okay. But we weren’t able to draw the numbers that we saw in Summit County, or anywhere close to them.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.000Brian Bensch: And my conclusion.00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:26.000Brian Bensch: or one of my conclusions is that.00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:39.000Brian Bensch: It is much, much harder to influence the macro kind of tide of skier movements than it is to siphon off.00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:55.000Brian Bensch: not to capture demand in an underserved market in Northern Colorado. You know, it’s great that they have Hodown Hill, but there weren’t a thousand people looking for affordable lessons in Northern Colorado before Hodown Hill existed.00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:11.000Brian Bensch: Uh, whereas there’s, you know, thousands of Summit County visitors who want more affordable lessons and just don’t take lessons today. Um, and so, like, it was… and same thing in Tahoe. Uh, it was much easier, like, we open up for business and, like, we don’t have to do much marketing for.00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:25.000Brian Bensch: for the wave of customers to come in, whereas every customer we earned in, uh, in Windsor and Fort Collins area, sort of, we had to hustle to get. There weren’t people, like, already looking for affordable skiing there, because it’s… it’s a suburb of Denver.00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s true.00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:28.000Stuart Winchester: That’s so interesting because I.00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:39.000Stuart Winchester: wrote up, and I talked to the folks at Hood on Hill, and they were opening it. And the way I thought… the way they pitched it to me was more of making skiing accessible for locals at an entry level.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:49.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, they didn’t… I mean, I understood that it was attached to this other resort, but my understanding is it was kind of a low-cost thing for the community. I think one mistake they made, and…00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: Maybe you don’t want to criticize them, but I think having four carpets.00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:02.000Stuart Winchester: I think they should have had at least one rope tower or T-bar, like, something to serve the terrain park that wasn’t so slow. I think that would have gotten them more…00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: Energy on site.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:18.000Stuart Winchester: And… and had a multiplier effect. I just didn’t… I didn’t like the four carpets model. I liked the model of putting a ski area there, because otherwise the closest place is, what, like Eldora, and a lift ticket’s 180 bucks?00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so… so there wasn’t… or you go up to Echo, I guess, but that’s a pain to get to. So… so I… I don’t know, that… that was my… that’s my impression of Hoedown so far, is it was, like, a good idea with bad execution.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:35.000Brian Bensch: I I think that there’s some fairness to that.00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:48.000Brian Bensch: They did a great job with the terrain park, given the resources available. And yes, like, a rope tower right next to the park is always, like, I think, a good idea. And it’s something that the town of Frisco invested in, I think.00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:46:48.000 --> 00:47:05.000Brian Bensch: 3 years ago, maybe 2 years ago, and it has been wildly popular. And you know, rope toes, you know you don’t need to convince me. But I’m I’m with you on the rope toes are the most affordable, accessible way for a ski area to like increase uphill uphill capacity.00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:17.000Brian Bensch: Um, I think the biggest challenge for Hoedown was… and you’d call this bad luck, um, I would say bad luck more than bad execution, but it is at, you know, 6,000 feet, and uh…00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:24.000Brian Bensch: Natural snowfall in an hour north of Denver is not the most plentiful.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.000Brian Bensch: And they invested heavily in snowmaking, but you can’t fight temps.00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:40.000Brian Bensch: And so, in both of our first two seasons at Hoedown, we opened between January 2nd and January 7th, but we missed Christmas both of those years, and it’s really hard to, sort of.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:57.000Brian Bensch: generate momentum for a ski area when you miss Christmas. Um, and, you know, Mother Nature is the biggest determiner of that. Uh, I’m not positive, but I don’t think they got open for Christmas last year, and last year was obviously the worst of the three past seasons. So, um, hoping Mother Nature cooperates better for them this year.00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Brian, so you can keep hunting rope toes.00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:16.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I was having this debate with someone yesterday. A lot of the stats you hear when you point back in time, oh, there was 1,200 ski areas and now there’s only 500. It’s like, well, a lot of them were little rope toes. Like, most of the lost ski areas in Colorado were just little rope toes that existed. The reason they went away…00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, is, is not because there, there was some catastrophe in, uh.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: anywhere other than the fact that there just was better ski areas built, and they’re kind of boring. Like, when you just… you get over that pretty quick. Like, 100 vertical foot, wide open run, with a rope tow, unless it has some park features.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: you’re gonna get over it. And almost all of them, they still exist. And I’ve been to a lot of them across America, and they’re mostly in New England and Midwest, and kind of sprinkled throughout the West, especially in the Pacific Northwest. They’re almost all…00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:56.000Stuart Winchester: None of them are actual businesses, almost. Like, they’re almost all subsidized, they’re a city park, they’re owned by a school, they’re attached to a resort.00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:01.000Stuart Winchester: My point is, this is not a growth area long term.00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:17.000Stuart Winchester: you know, the big ski areas mostly do have really good beginner centers, and they’re getting better all the time, right? You see places like Jackson and Big Sky building mid-mountain beginner centers to put people more up in the alpine experience and away from.00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000Stuart Winchester: the chaos of the base. So what I’m getting at here is.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: Eventually…00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like you have to get…00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:41.000Stuart Winchester: into a ski area where there’s somewhere else to go after the beginner hill’s done, right? Or else you’re just gonna be teaching pizza French fry forever, and… and I don’t think that even the most passionate ski instructor wants to do that, so…00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.000Stuart Winchester: And it’s funny, because you started at Homewood, and it’s like, how do you get back to Homewood is almost the question I’m asking.00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: But I…00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: How do you… First of all, do you agree with that or am I totally missing the point? And second, if you do want to eventually get into bigger operations, what…00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.000Stuart Winchester: What are the obstacles to doing so other than the obvious permitting issue we just talked about?00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:20.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, so I would say I 80% agree with you. The 20% carve out would be that Grand Lavaca is still a business and Ron runs it like a business.00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:27.000Brian Bensch: And the town of Frisco, even if it’s town-operated, is a business that, like, reports its P&L, and they’re both, like, pretty thriving.00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:33.000Brian Bensch: medium sized businesses. Snow schoolers is a small business. They’re they’re certainly, you know, 5 to 10 x bigger.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:42.000Brian Bensch: And and I think that just like, you know, grade school education is a business.00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:46.000Brian Bensch: There is a steady stream of families.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:46.000 --> 00:51:01.000Brian Bensch: You know, kids that, you know, will hopefully have the opportunity to learn to ski. And, you know, I think there’s a world for, you know, bump hills, so to speak, to remain thriving in existence without having, you know.00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:13.000Brian Bensch: the Jackson Hole Palisades terrain to keep people forever. As far as you know, snow schoolers and kind of the the lesson ecosystem.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:22.000Brian Bensch: I would say vehemently believe there is an underserved market for intermediate and advanced lessons.00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:37.000Brian Bensch: at, you know, quote-unquote, real resorts. Um, I’d somewhat be lying if I said I had the answer, uh, to how to break into that, because I probably would have done so already, uh, even if this is my part-time endeavor. Um, but the… in a similar manner to.00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:44.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, how to… you know, we’ve… we struggled to create demand at Hoedown Hill. Hoedown Hill? Um…00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:59.000Brian Bensch: It is a completely new endeavor to create demand for that, you know, lifelong skier who skis, you know, 5 to 15 days a year, or maybe even like 10 to 50 days a year, and doesn’t think that they need a lesson.00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.000Brian Bensch: Um, that is a much sort of.00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:14.000Brian Bensch: harder marketing challenge. But I can guarantee you, unless they are in the top 1% of like wealth. They’re not going to pay $1,000. And so that’s the like. How do you? How do you like? Come up with the right product?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:26.000Brian Bensch: And, you know, when I talk to people on chairlifts, you know, fun skiing, I’ll often ask, like, you know, hey, when’s the last time you took a lesson now? Yeah, when I was a kid. What would you be willing to pay?00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:42.000Brian Bensch: Uh, you know, to get 20% better at your skiing riding today. It’s like, yeah, maybe 50 bucks, maybe 40 bucks, 60 bucks, like, you know. Uh, and there’s no mountain that offers that, particularly for, like, the one or two hour segment. Um, and, you know.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:49.000Brian Bensch: I think there’s a lot of experimentation that the bigger mountains could do with ski school to serve that sort of.00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.000Brian Bensch: Latent market, or latent demand, uh…00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:55.000Brian Bensch: I’d love to help, but I’d be lying if I think that.00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.000Brian Bensch: Ask a 3rd party to do it for them.00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:13.000Brian Bensch: And but you know, in the the only thing I think that I am a believer of Einstein’s definition of insanity, and and if you do the same thing over over and over again, and expect different results like that’s insane.00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:28.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I’d love to see more experimentation with, like, you know, better serving sort of lessons for people that already know how to ski. Um, because that’s what… that’s what got me addicted. Uh, becoming an instructor made me realize how much more.00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:37.000Brian Bensch: fun I could have and how much more like I still I want to learn to be a better skier this year uh and like everyone that sort of.00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:47.000Brian Bensch: really gets sort of addicted to ski instruction. They do it because, like there, it’s a lifelong pursuit of learning to like, get better. And most.00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:50.000Brian Bensch: lace gears like don’t have that sort of.00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.000Brian Bensch: have that spark that I’d love to spread.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess the cynic in me thinks you’re never gonna get the robots to ski. Like, there’s too much ego in American skiing, especially among the sort of core demographic of males. But what I… I think what I meant more was, like, okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Grand Le Bacon’s kind of a novelty, and I get that it’s a business, uh, that’s attached to it. I, how about like Tahoe Donner, right? So it’s, it’s, it’s not a big resort. It’s, you know, right next to Sugar Bowl. It’s got 500 vertical feet, like five double.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:31.000Stuart Winchester: Maybe they don’t need the hassle of running a ski school, and the…00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: they have locals, right? Because that’s a mountain with interesting terrain, even though it’s short vert, where parents would want to go and, like, put their kids in ski school while they go off and ski, even if you don’t.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:57.000Stuart Winchester: get the parents. Is there… do you see opportunity in that? Because there’s… there’s lots of hills like that, which are not, you know, down the Frisco level, but, you know, if you want to go Summit County, so you have Frisco, and you have, like, Keystone Basin.00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:07.000Stuart Winchester: uh, Breck, but then you also have Granby Ranch, and you have Ski Cooper, and it’s like, okay, may… or you have Echo Mountain, maybe those places are sort of the logical next.00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:18.000Stuart Winchester: I don’t even know if it’s possible to get the really big ones, but, you know, do you see any growth in that? Just tiering up, not to destinations necessarily, but sort of like.00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas that families actually want to ski a whole season at.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, um…00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:28.000Brian Bensch: A few things to come back to your earlier question. Not all of ski school is broken.00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.000Brian Bensch: I visited Granby Ranch.00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:37.000Brian Bensch: last spring, I believe? Maybe it was 2 springs ago. Um, and I’ve been to Tahoe Donner many a times. Both of those, uh…00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:42.000Brian Bensch: mountains have pretty phenomenal ski schools. Like, they don’t need our help.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:50.000Brian Bensch: You know, maybe, you know, maybe there’s some cool software things that we’re doing that they could, you know, borrow and replicate, but they are thriving.00:55:50.000 --> 00:56:00.000Brian Bensch: learning area programs. And I think there’s a like for for the listeners that have, you know, you know.00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.000Brian Bensch: young kids that are thinking about when to start in ski school.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:22.000Brian Bensch: That, I would say, tier of mountain is today, like, if it’s not on your radar, it should be, because the affordability, like, they’re not gouging people nearly as much as the Tier 1 Icon Epic Resorts are, and every time I’ve visited them, on a weekend at least.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:30.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, their fault. They’re thriving. And so I don’t think that at least the class of the Tahoe Donners and Granbys of the world. I don’t think they’re broken.00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:38.000Brian Bensch: Other than, you know, yeah, more staff, like, how do you keep scaling? But they are thriving pretty well from what I’ve seen.00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’m.00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: I could still see some operator… you know, I was talking to the guy who revitalized Steeplechase, and he was saying, you know, we don’t have a ski school, and I think I may have even connected you guys, but it’s like, you sort of have a ski school in a box you could offer them.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:57.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, one more ski school question, and then you can make fun of my charts. Um, so… so, Summit at Snoqualmie.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:11.000Stuart Winchester: and I’m sure you know this, for some reason, because of, like, it’s grandfathered in, because it used to be, like, 92 different ski areas, and now it’s… it’s one. They have competing ski schools there. It’s one of the few… might be the only place in America.00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:16.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, that I’m aware of, at least the only major, you know, it’s owned by Boeing. And I’ve asked Boe.00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:25.000Stuart Winchester: I don’t know, we don’t really want to have that war. You know, it works. But but what do you think of Summit at Snoqualmie?00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.000Stuart Winchester: And is it just?00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:40.000Stuart Winchester: a fringe case, and it doesn’t tell us anything useful about how we could maybe change American ski school structure. Any thoughts on that? That’s right outside of Seattle, by the way, for folks who don’t know.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, yeah, uh…00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.000Brian Bensch: Now, fun, fun fact.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.000Brian Bensch: You know, in my 1st year of.00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:52.000Brian Bensch: researching this space and figuring out what I was gonna do. Uh, the Pacific Northwest, and Snoqualmie in particular, was sort of.00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:08.000Brian Bensch: Number one, I’m like, I need to get up there and figure out, like, what they’re doing, why, how they made it work, and how do we do that in Tahoe? That was my, like, year one thesis. I finally got up there just before the world shut down with COVID.00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.000Brian Bensch: Knocked on doors, had some good conversations.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:23.000Brian Bensch: And and you’re correct like there are at least 6 or 7, maybe even more independent ski schools. They all have their own little lodge building. They’re all primarily seasonal programs.00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:33.000Brian Bensch: And they do. They still do a good deal of the sort of transportation coordination. You know that whole market is, you know, Seattle and Seattle suburbs, you know, coming up.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right off the interstate. Yeah.00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:45.000Brian Bensch: to the mountains right off the interstate. It’s it’s as sort of like convenient as you could imagine. And more or less the answer I got was, we’ve done it this way.00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:48.000Brian Bensch: Uh, but we’re not looking to make it more this way.00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.000Brian Bensch: And you know they.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:52.000Stuart Winchester: That was the answer from Boyne or from the ski schools?00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:08.000Brian Bensch: Uh, it was… I would say both. There was a, uh, like, the first party unoperated, like, Snoqualmie Ski School manager, like, told me that. And there was a person who coordinated, basically, was the Boyne representative for the seven other independents.00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:11.000Brian Bensch: And it was like, yeah, we’re not, you know, we’re not inviting new people.00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and in case anyone from the ski schools at Summit is listening to this, don’t run to Guy Lawrence or Steven Kirchner and be like.00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:13.000Brian Bensch: Um, okay.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:33.000Stuart Winchester: Stu Winchester said that you said this. I’m paraphrasing, and that’s my take, is that they don’t want that war. What they said was probably something like, our ski schools do a great job, and we’re so happy to work with them. So don’t run that back to them. This is just my take on it.00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:23.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:31.000Brian Bensch: Yep.00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, that they don’t want to fight you, and I think they’re smart not to.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:43.000Brian Bensch: Yeah. The thing I would probably acknowledge is when a…00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:47.000Brian Bensch: Sierra is running a…00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:54.000Brian Bensch: a well executed, operationally efficient ski school.00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:59:54.000 --> 01:00:00.000Brian Bensch: They don’t necessarily need third parties to come in and, like, try to do it better.01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.000Brian Bensch: Okay.01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:06.000Brian Bensch: However, there is a short term sort of.01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.000Brian Bensch: financially motivated incentive.01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.000Brian Bensch: to run a, I would say, less at scale, more profitable ski area over time.01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.000Brian Bensch: And you know that is sort of.01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:22.000Brian Bensch: what I would attribute to, like, you know, the…01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:37.000Brian Bensch: the non-snow summit at Snoqualmie Mountains that have one ski school and their list prices are $279 for group lesson or $1,299 for private lesson.01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:50.000Brian Bensch: they’ve decided that it’s better for their business to, you know, maximize, like, short-term financials over long-term bringing skiers in the market. Um, and the history of Snoqualmie was, you know.01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:05.000Brian Bensch: Because it was like this, and because the ski schools were busing kids, you know, from school to the mountain afternoon, and, like, handling the very messy logistics and operations, that, like, they saw that as valuable and let them keep doing that.01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:12.000Brian Bensch: But from a business perspective, it’s just more profitable, at least in the short term, to teach fewer lessons at higher margin.01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:17.000Stuart Winchester: So to end on this thought on ski lessons.01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:27.000Stuart Winchester: I think they’re… it’s like… it’s a little bit like Lyft tickets, where the retail price is scary, but there’s a lot of hacks. And I’m not saying there’s hacks at, like.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Big Sky, but, but what I always tell folks with kids is find a seasonal program. And my seasonal program at Mount Peter, you know, 250 vertical foot ski area, an hour and 15 minutes away from New York City.01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, 3 little chairlifts, family-run, great little place. It’s $650 for my son. It… that includes 7 weekends, uh, you know, 3… so, it’s 7 different weekends, and you choose a time, and it’s…01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:10.000Stuart Winchester: 3 hours on Sunday. Okay, so it’s, it’s a total of 21 hours of instruction, if we go to all 7, which we never seem to make it to. But they’re with the same group every, every week, they’re with the same instructor every week, they get a lot of peer pressure from the other kids, positive peer pressure because they’re having fun.01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:26.000Stuart Winchester: So that’s the hack I always tell people about, is like, don’t wait until you go on vacation to Banff and get your kids a lesson. Like, get them a seasonal rental of gear, right? It’s like 150 bucks around here, and they don’t really do it in some parts of the country, but in the Northwest they do.01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then you… you get them in a seasonal program with a… a season pass place at Mt. Peter’s $400, and then the CC program’s $650. Still… still, like, not… not nothing.01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but if you’re a middle-class person with a middle-class income, and you want skiing to be part of your life.01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:58.000Stuart Winchester: I think that, you know, $1,200 is a fair investment in your child per winter to make that happen. And that’s, again, like, one day of one lesson at a major resort. So that’s sort of my hack, and it’s not even really a hack, it’s just…01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:09.000Stuart Winchester: kind of things that I found. So, so do you have any tips for people looking to get more affordable lessons, uh, either, you know, at any, at any.01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:11.000Stuart Winchester: Age or stage?01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:13.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, uh…01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:15.000Brian Bensch: A love that.01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:23.000Brian Bensch: Love the hacker. Seasonal programs are great. The downside of seasonal programs is, you know.01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:33.000Brian Bensch: Similar to the downside of, uh, season passes in general, and it… a season pass is never going to be that attractive to your first-time skier.01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:48.000Brian Bensch: Like, you know, being asked to, like, spend any, you know, approaching $500 to $1,000 amount for a thing that you want to try for the first time is just, like, a big ask. And so, even, you know, seasonal programs are great. Once you’ve.01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:03:48.000 --> 01:04:01.000Brian Bensch: had your successful first day or so, day or two. Um, and uh… and we gotta get people over the hump. So, you know, the ski industry, I do believe, has a top-of-funnel problem.01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:17.000Brian Bensch: Um, and I, I, I hope that the Vail Resorts and Alteras of the world are, are sort of slowly but surely waking up to that. Um, but as far as, like, you know, if you’re thinking about, you know, how to introduce your, your son or daughter to skiing for the first time.01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:20.000Brian Bensch: Um, my… I would say…01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:28.000Brian Bensch: I don’t know, biggest unknown hack, so to speak, would be to take the lesson with them.01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:43.000Brian Bensch: Like sign up for a group lesson where they’ll, where they’ll let adults and kids together. And your job is to learn as much from the instructor about how to teach your son or daughter as as your son or daughter learns so that you can continue with them.01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:55.000Brian Bensch: Um, and, and most people, like, think you’re doing this, like, you hopefully already know how to ski yourself, but, like, learning to, to be your own instructor for, for your son or daughter is.01:04:55.000 --> 01:05:11.000Brian Bensch: the most affordable hack out there. And we’ve done an occasional mommy and me program with snow schoolers that very much serves that market or that intent.01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:15.000Brian Bensch: And maybe you might learn that you want to take lessons yourself for real later.01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. You know, another thing that I just thought of, and my brother-in-law does this a lot, he has three kids, and uh, you know, he’ll often have other friends with kids skiing with him.01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:32.000Stuart Winchester: in a… a private lesson for a day is super expensive, right, at a big place like Steamboat, but it starts to make sense.01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: when you realize it doesn’t have to be one-to-one. Like, if you get an instructor, it can be…01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:45.000Stuart Winchester: for your whole group of 5 people, or whatever. I’m not saying that’s cheap for a day, but you do cut the line, and you go around, and you…01:05:45.000 --> 01:06:01.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, they give you tips, and they know the mountain, and they know where to go, and uh, you know, I skied with them one day, and they’re like, oh, Stewie, you go down this mogul run and meet us on this cat track, we’re gonna go, like, go all around. And I thought that was kind of neat, too, if…01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:57.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:02.000Stuart Winchester: you know…01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:13.000Stuart Winchester: So it’s not like if you have 5 people, it’s $5,000 for a day. Like, if it’s $1,000 for 5 people, you know, as a splurge, it starts to make a little more sense when I realize that.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:07.000Brian Bensch: Totally.01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:19.000Brian Bensch: Yeah, and and that is that is true almost anywhere. And you know, when.01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:28.000Brian Bensch: When we talk about our ratio of private lessons to group lessons, and we are well over 90% private lessons, we call this, like, private.01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:40.000Brian Bensch: including, like, the brothers, the mom, dad, etc. And, you know, a family lesson makes the economics work much better than, you know, an actual individual one-to-one lesson.01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:43.000Stuart Winchester: Do you have another meeting right now, or do you have a minute to make fun of my chart.01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:45.000Brian Bensch: Uh, let’s do it. Um…01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, so… so, as everyone knows.01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I do big dumb charts, and uh… about…01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: once a day, I get an email from someone who’s like, hey, why don’t you do this thing to fix them? And I think they’re mostly missing the point, because what I’m…01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: Like, I didn’t have to make this public. It’s a piece of junk worksheet that I made public.01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:23.000Stuart Winchester: Just because you could see the chart, right? Just because I was like, why not have this information? So, so what I’m trying to do is just get all this information about ski areas in one place where I don’t have to click through a million pages, where it’s not buried under somebody’s, it’s all just right here. Like anything I need.01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000Stuart Winchester: and then I make little breakout tables, so, like, for example.01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, if I want to see, like, early bird pass prices.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:47.000Stuart Winchester: for different ski areas. You know, once I learned how to make pivot tables, which any, like, 2-year-old can do, you know, now I can just break this out, and I can just look at them all in order, and I can just do it like this. Inevitably, people, like, they focus too much on what it looks like, and not on the fact that this is exactly what I.01:07:47.000 --> 01:08:05.000Stuart Winchester: wanted to build. Now, I wish it would, uh, that I could make it, you know, it’d be nice to make it look better at some point, and it would be nice to be able to make charts easier, and to be able to sort information on demand easier. But that’s sort of my position, and that’s why I’m always.01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:09.000Stuart Winchester: Pretty dismissive about, like, all the chart geniuses out there.01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:23.000Stuart Winchester: But we’ve had a working relationship for a long time. I respect your opinion. I’m not saying they’re perfect, I’m just saying that it’s gonna take a pretty big boulder to knock me off my position here, so…01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: So talk to me, Brian, and talk to the audience more importantly.01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:39.000Brian Bensch: All I’ll say is that it’s a blessing and a curse that I think my first shout out in the Storm Ski Journal was when you said someone taught me that pivot tables existed. And I think that was me.01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:54.000Brian Bensch: Because you mangling sort of static spreadsheets hand by hand was was an even more painful experience to watch. But the fact that you’ve assembled this data is a hundred percent.01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:08:54.000 --> 01:09:11.000Brian Bensch: a gift to the industry. So thank you. And I’ll more or less say that like data visualization used to be something that people, you know, spend a semester in college studying, or a few years in a white collar job to get good at data visualization.01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:16.000Brian Bensch: And as much as AI is controversial these days.01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:21.000Brian Bensch: We’re going to teach you how to take your…01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:33.000Brian Bensch: current outputs and just make it easier for, uh, us on our mobile devices, uh, to look at and get the gist. But the underlying data you put together is incredible. And, you know, uh…01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:38.000Brian Bensch: And I guarantee you, whether it’s Claude or Gbt or or anything else.01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:40.000Brian Bensch: We’ll…01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:47.000Brian Bensch: You’re going to be able to create beautiful charts that are still based on the big dumb pivot table that should never go away.01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:54.000Stuart Winchester: The, the, the actual, uh, you know, I, I jest, uh, with cockiness, but, um, I, I do…01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:59.000Stuart Winchester: really realize that this is a rough draft of what I hope to get to, and.01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it was Joel from OpenSnow who captured this sentiment best. He’s like.01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I move very slowly, but I’m always moving forward. And so we’ve seen what he’s built with OpenSnow.01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:09.000Brian Bensch: Yeah.01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:20.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, you know, I’m building something with the storm, and I’m not saying it’s gonna be at the scale of… of open snow, but… but I am saying that I’m always…01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: Aware of the faults and trying to make it better so I do appreciate your insights on a bunch of other things and I think we’ll get to a better place with this eventually. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is flabbergasted by EuroSki. Donate to my brain transplant fund to make me more smarter:WhoIain Martin, founder and host of UK-based The Ski Podcast. YouTube here. This is Iain’s second appearance on The Storm:Interview dateSeptember 24, 2026Why I interviewed himIf, like me, you’re a U.S. American SnoSportSkier, you may find European skiing more than a little baffling. More than 4,000 ski areas spread over dozens of countries with their dozens of languages. Trams and gondolas pop skyward from every other corner in Switzerland or the Pyrenees or Slovenia, as numerous as the strip-mall vape shops and Jesus-Knows-You’re-Watching-Porn billboards defecating all over America’s roads. The trail markings in Europe are all different colors. Why is no one skiing off the groomers? Who stole all the trees? Why is every ski lift either a tram that looks CGI’d to transport Storm Troopers to a fictional Star Wars Cloud City or a T-bar that looks as though it was hammered together by Yohan in between sheep shearings? Why is the food good and the alcohol cheap? Why do lift tickets not cost more than a semester’s tuition at Cornell? And, most baffling of all as we contemplate the growing presence of EuroSki on U.S.-based multimountain passes, why is every ski resort actually 10 or 15 or 100 different ski areas stapled together as the Valley of Grand Domaine de Les Skis?I wish I could be more helpful in answering these questions. So far, I have not been very helpful. I felt like I could get away with just pointing and laughing as Vail and Alterra added a handful of big-time European ski resorts to their rosters, but the numbers have rapidly spiraled: check out the number of Euro ski areas that have joined Epic, Ikon, and Indy since 2018:At first I tried to keep up, but I just sort of surrendered after 2025. I did manage write-ups of Epic Pass additions in Austria, and new Ikon partners in Italy and France, but I never got past more than cursory acknowledgements of Indy’s massive haul of Euro partners from Turkey up through the Alps core to Scotland. And I thought, “OK how many gigantic resorts can they have over there it’s gotta stop soon right?” But they just kept coming like kaijū in Pacific Rim. The pass-by-pass totals headed into winter 2026-27 are shocking:Here’s a country-by-country breakdown that’s a bit easier to read:And here’s the detailed roster - not all the lifts are filled in because shoot me:This chart is the European equivalent of American college football rankings. It makes no sense, but it must be fun because so many people do it, right?I tried to make a map but it sorta sucks so I’m going to keep trying. I did use the map as a visual aide in the podcast, which is also and always available in audio-only. But if you want to watch above or on YouTube, our conversation will make marginally more sense as I scroll around beneath Iain’s narrative.TranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment. Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.ZoomStuart Winchester: My guest today is the founder and host of The Ski Podcast, a UK-based show that just published its 327th episode.00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:56.000Stuart Winchester: He’s also a freelance journalist writing for national and specialized press and the owner of a digital marketing consultancy for snow sports. Ian Martin is my guest. He is a good friend of the storm. He has been on the show before and he is here today to help us make sense of Europe. Ian, how you doing today?00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I am really well, Stuart. It’s really nice to see you, and thank you for inviting me onto the show.00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:07.000Stuart Winchester: Before we get started, what do you got lined up for this winter? When do you start skiing?00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:23.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: My personal first trip will be out to Les Des Alpes ski resort in France, which I’ll be doing in early December. But I will actually be skiing not next weekend, but the one after in one of our indoor snow slopes.00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: in the UK. I’ll be skiing in the snowy center, Manchester, so I’ll get to get my skis on.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’ll be a lot of fun. Yeah, we have the one right over in New Jersey. I was supposed to go a couple of… a couple weeks ago, but I… something came up, and I wasn’t able to make it. Alright, so Ian, let me set this up for the listeners.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.000Stuart Winchester: And, and…00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: as a baseline for what we’re dealing with here. So, US-based passes, meaning Epic, Icon, and Indy. There’s also one on Mountain Collective, but it overlaps with… there’s two on Mountain Collective that overlap with Icon, so I’.00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: So they have added a total of 61 destinations.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mm-hmm.00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.000Stuart Winchester: in 14 European countries.00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: 13 of those are on Epic.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.000Stuart Winchester: Nine are on icon.00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:18.000Stuart Winchester: 39 are on Indy. Uh, so… some of those are unlimited on Epic, some you get 5 days, some you get 7. Icon’s a pretty standard 7 days, or 5 days, even with the base pass. Indy is 2 days at each.00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, 20 of those destinations are in Austria.00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:31.000Stuart Winchester: 12 are in Switzerland. Uh, 8 are in France, and they’re all over the place, but those are the countries with the most. So let me… I wanna actually…00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: Share on my screen.00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:38.000Stuart Winchester: a map that I made that could help us as a little guide, although it’s not a…00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.000Stuart Winchester: It’s not a great map, but I will…00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay. Can you, can you see the map?00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I… can see the map, yes.00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, I couldn’t figure out how to make the…00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me just explain this at a high level. So, I couldn’t figure out how to make the text smaller, it’s very much a work in progress, but, uh, blue is, uh, the names of the ski areas are by country.00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:19.000Stuart Winchester: And the names of the icons are bypassed. So when you zoom down to Austria, it’s Epic, Epic, Indy. Uh, Indy’s red, Icon’s yellow, uh, Epic is blue. This is one where it really helps to watch the video. If not, we’ll explain it, and you don’t have to.00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:34.000Stuart Winchester: be watching to understand everything. So, uh, looking at this, Ian, and putting aside my, uh, crappy map design skills, and looking at the full of Europe, from above, from space, as we can do in the future here, uh, where do you even start?00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Well, firstly, I’ve got to congratulate you on your data. It’s just amazing. When you read out all of the different resorts, and the number of countries, and the number of resorts in each country, I’ve got one of your spreadsheets printed out here, and it’s already changed since then. So, staying up to date the whole time is really quite incredible.00:10:53.000 --> 00:11:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: how you manage… how you manage to do that. Um, it is, uh, amazing. In… in respect of the map, there’s obviously a lot of ski areas on there, and probably this is going to be better for someone as a research tool.00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:15.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, you mentioned that there are 61 countries in total, 61 ski areas in total that are covered on those different passes.00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I was thinking about…00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: what is the best way to kind of go into getting a sense for maybe which ones you should visit? Obviously, it’s going to be different for everybody, depending on what kind of pass they have, and I know some people have more than one pass, but I thought that maybe a useful way to do it might be to think of.00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Let’s say the hero trip.00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Then maybe somewhere you might go.00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: for a week, and then somewhere that you might visit if you were… if you were touring, or possibly if you’re over for work, and you happen to be roughly in that area to give people a sense of, you know, where it might be worth doing a little side trip to while they were doing that.00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So if you are happy with that structure, I could work from that. Okay, cool.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000Stuart Winchester: I love it.00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.000Stuart Winchester: Full speed ahead. Let’s do it.00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, cool. So, I think…00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: We’ve seen more Americans coming over to Europe over the last few years, and that is to do with these. That is to do with the passes. No, it’s a pleasure. I mean, I talk to everybody when I’m on a chairlift or in a gondola, and if I hear someone who’s from the States or maybe from Canada, I’m always interested to know, you know, why they’ve come over, and predominantly it’s because.00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000Stuart Winchester: Sorry.00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: they’ve got the passes. And, you know, I spent a lot of time in Chamonix last winter, and evidently you get a lot of people in Chamonix. Chamonix is one of the ones on the Icon Pass, I believe, as is Zermatt. Now, Chamonix and Zermatt are two amazing destinations. They really are fantastic. You can see them, actually, on the map that you’ve got in the video now.00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They’re quite close to each other. They’re probably about two and a half hours by car apart. You could fly into Geneva for both of them.00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, okay.00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:12:54.000 --> 00:13:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They are fantastic resorts, fantastic destinations. They’re my two favorites in Europe.00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:01.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But they’re not necessarily going to be suitable for everyone. And the reason I say that is Chamonix is incredible. It’s in the middle of a very dramatic valley. You have Mont Blanc, the highest mountain in Europe, at 4,800 meters on one side. You can take the Aguille de Midi.00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which is the lift that goes up to 3,800 roughly meters. And ski the Valley Blanche from there. Lots of people will have, you know, heard of that very famous off-piste run. It’s incredible just to go up to the Aguirre de Midi.00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But in terms of the ski areas itself, they’re very disparate. They’re not connected, uh, in the same way as we might come onto the Three Valleys, uh, you know, shortly. So…00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:13:49.000 --> 00:14:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you’ve got to put in a bit of legwork if you’re going to go to Chamonix. The connections between them generally involve getting a bus, and even if you’re staying right in the center of town, you’ve got to get a bus.00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: or maybe a train from one end of the valley to ski the five different areas that you have in Chamonix-Mont-Blanc. And I think…00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I’m not 100%, I’m not the expert on the icon passes, but…00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Icon Pass only covers the lifts that are in that area. There’s also a couple of areas which are included on your map there, actually, Megeve and Les Contamines. You can get a lift ticket in Chamonix when I stay there that covers all of those.00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And you can ski over there as well.00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so Mijeve, I’m sorry to interrupt, but Mijeve has been added to the Icon Pass, but it took me so long to sort out even what that meant when they said Mijeve, and even Icon Pass themselves didn’t seem to know. We’ll get to that mess in a little bit, but Mijeve is on the Icon Pass, uh, you know, along with Shamani, and those are separate buckets of days.00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh so.00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000Stuart Winchester: Then, like in Tammany, which is part of Mijav, is also on Indy.00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, exactly. Megeve isn’t really part of Chamonix, but it is covered on that very big pass that you can buy. My point being really that Chamonix is fantastic. It’s an amazing town. It has an incredible history.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s where the first Winter Olympic Games are in 1924. You can get really close to, uh, Mont Blanc. You could ski the Vallee Blanche. There are lots and lots of options for, uh, high mountain skiing, but for a more recreational skier.00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s perhaps not as good. If we look at Zermatt, another one, yes, yep.00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so let me pause one moment on Chamonix first. So, I want to point out, the Icon Pass, for whatever reason, does not cover the Algo de Midi, or whatever, I’m sure I pronounced it wrong, the big tram. How important is it to just pony up, buy that tram ride anyway?00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes, okay.00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I mean, we had… we stayed out there for 2 months last winter, and we had lots of friends come to visit us, and with all of them.00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: we recommended that you go up there. It really is something quite special, being so high, so close to.00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mont Blanc itself, but also just for the type of visitors we had, who weren’t really expert skiers, to get an insight into the high mountain, because you do see skiers who are heading off down the Valley Blanche, and the Valley Blanche is a relatively accessible off-piste run with a guide.00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: but other skiers who are doing much more hardcore stuff, or climbers who are up there, who are practicing their mountaineering skills. And if you go up the Aguirre de Midi, you get an insight to all of that. I mean, I met some of your American friends who were over, who were.00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really going for it, going down the Cosmic. When I met them, going up with some friends to the Aguirre-Midi, they were on their second ascent of the day. They’d already gone up, done the Valley Blanche, come back up, and then they were on their way down Cosmic to stay in a refuge for the night.00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.000Stuart Winchester: Of course, yeah.00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I really would recommend it. And yes, it is expensive.00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could even be worth just buying that Montblanc Unlimited ticket in advance, because it’s dynamic pricing. It’s one of those things where if you buy it in advance, it’s less expensive than buying it on the day.00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And Mont Blanc, just for my listeners, is, I believe, the tallest mountain in Europe.00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, highest mountain in Western Europe. I think it’s 4,810 meters.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so over to Zermatt.00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Zermatt, I worked a season there as well. Absolutely beautiful place. Zermatt Matterhorn, as it’s known. The Matterhorn is the standout attraction. It is just an incredible looking mountain.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The village itself, in my opinion, very pretty. Lots of traditional chalets, traditional buildings.00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: they have controlled development of it. It’s not full of skyscrapers. Without going into the details, there was a proposal to build, you know, one recently that really got it dampened down pretty quickly.00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You can only get there by train. It’s a car-free resort, which adds to the charm as well.00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: really, I would say, if… the only negatives are that it’s quite expensive. It is one of the most expensive destinations in Europe.00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are a lot of, uh, visitors, a bit like Chamonix, who go there not necessarily to ski, but because they want to go and see the Matterhorn, in the same way that you could go up the Agua de Midi in Chamonix. There’s a Gornergrat, uh, cog railway.00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which will take you up, uh, to a fantastic view looking over, uh, the Matterhorn. So, I guess you’re competing a little bit with the non-skiers. The ski area itself is better connected than Chamonix. It goes up high. You’ve also got lifts of skiing up to 3,800 meters.00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: at the Klein Matterhorn area.00:18:49.000 --> 00:19:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: typically they have summer skiing there as well. It’s actually closed this summer for a little while because of the weather, but, you know, it’s so high, and because of the glacier, they can offer skiing all year round. So, I really do love Zermatt.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The only negative would be…00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s expensive, you know, you just gotta face up to that fact if you want to go there, but it has a cachet and a feel to it that I just, uh, love.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:34.000Stuart Winchester: And one thing this map doesn’t show is it does interconnect with Turbinia, which is now on Icon Pass, but separate days. So once you cross, if you use the day of Zermatt, even if it’s the same day, you cross into Turbinia, you’re using another Icon Pass day. It doesn’t really matter for most Americans who are visiting anyway.00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:39.000Stuart Winchester: But what do you think about Slovenia? Is it worth it to pop over there?00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, interesting you should mention that. So I picked Chamonix and Zermatt as the first two because they are the most well-known.00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:19:47.000 --> 00:20:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But it’s not strictly necessary to go to those two places and base yourself there. And you mentioned that, uh, you know, Cervinia is on… did you… did you say Cervinia is on… sorry, which pass again?00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: So, it’s on ICON, and the reason I didn’t have it…00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:12.000Stuart Winchester: called out. It’s under Valle de Oesta, Italy, so that includes, uh, Pila, it includes, uh…00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:10.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Slovenia, it includes Cormier, it includes some other ones, but I made the map fast.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Stuart, you are… you are very well, uh, informed. You’re right. I mean, you can see it on the map that we’re looking at below us. You can get from Chamonix to Courmayeur very easily through the Mont Blanc tunnel. It’s actually a 22 kilometer tunnel, and we skied over in Courmayeur while we were there. Lots of.00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Chamonix, people who are based in Chamonix do go over there, because, uh, although the ski area is limited, there are more trees over there, you know, on a bad weather day, it’s a really good place to ski, and it’s included on the Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass. And Courmayeur is right at the top.00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: of the Aosta Valley. So where that little yellow, uh, icon is, underneath where it says Val de Aosta, is Courmayeur.00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But the Cormier… if I understand it correctly, then, all of the Aosta Valley resorts are included on the Icon Pass. So, as you say, Cormier… Cormier…00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Correct.00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s quite a shishi kind of resort. You’ll find lots of Milanese and Turinese will go up there for the weekend. There are lots of very smart shops in the little high street there. There’s some very, very good restaurants up there.00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The ski area is not as big, probably, you know, 50km, two, three days for a, you know, a good advanced skier would be sufficient to ski a lot of it. But you can get access up to the Vallee Blanche from the Italian side as well.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that lift was upgraded a few years ago. And it’s very, very impressive. It’s much more modern than the Aguirre de Midi. And it has, you know, museums at the mid station and at the top station, which explore the history of mountaineering in the area.00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, I would actually say that if someone’s, you know, looking to stay.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: For a week.00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and they have an Icon Pass, that the Ossa Valley could be a really good choice. If you had a car as well, because you can then explore Courmayeur, and then you mentioned Chavinha.00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, uh, slightly further down the valley, uh, and then up the hill, you mentioned that Shavinia links with Zermatt, and Shavinia is a really good resort. It’s high, uh, it has.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Quite wide pistes, quite flattering type of skiing. It has Italian cuisine, as all of the Aosta Valley does. Much.00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: more affordable than Zermatt, but you could ski over to Zermatt for the day and ski the Zermatt area, uh, as well.00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So, Chavinha, you know, is great. There’s also a smaller resort called La Tuile, uh, in the Aosta Valley as well, which…00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it is worth a day or two. That actually links over to a French resort called La Rozier. I doubt.00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that would be included, and I don’t see it on your list. Uh, and what I do see included a bit further down, we’re moving around the map quite a lot, there is an area called Monterosa.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is on the Aosta Valley as well. Uh, and there’s two areas there called Gressenet.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, and Alanya, and the skiing in both of those, I believe, is included, uh, within that. And, uh, you know, in Gressenet, uh, and Alanya, there’s some quite advanced skiing there, up in Monterosa.00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, some really good, you know, off-piste, uh, challenging skiing, and in fact, you can do heli-skiing out of those areas. Heli-skiing is banned in France, but it’s legal in Italy, so you can ski, and it’.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh.00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: legal in Switzerland as well, but you can ski out of Alanya, and heliski up to the mountain called Monterosa, and, uh, you know, access some amazing off-piste from there.00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:22.000Stuart Winchester: That’s incredible. I, you know, for a while, Google Maps took that. I’m looking at the map here and I changed the settings so that the lifts show up. And for a while, Google Maps had taken them off and now they’ve added them back on. And so you can just really get to see the scale of what’s going on in Europe. And I know what Americans are going to want to do.00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:29.000Stuart Winchester: when they look at Chamonix. They’re going to want to take the Algomenidae up, and they’re going to try to ski down into Italy. Is.00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, I mean, it is possible. Quite literally, if you did that to the Aguirre de Midi, you could ski, you’d have to ski tour up slightly, and then you could ski down. I wouldn’t suggest doing that without a guide. You know, it is feasible to do it, and when last time I went up the, uh, the lift from the Courmayeur side, I saw tracks below.00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:24:50.000 --> 00:25:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: but it’s not a straightforward route. Cormier’s 1,200 meters, you know, you can get snow all the way to the bottom, but yeah, it’s possible, but definitely, you know, take a guide, I would suggest.00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: Right. All right, so let’s continue with the hero trip here. Where next, Ian?00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, again, if you’re thinking about, you know, some of the great resorts in Europe, I’m actually going to pick St. Anton in Austria next, because that is listed on the spreadsheet I’m looking at as Skjalberg.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: On the epic, on the epic pass.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.000Stuart Winchester: Right. Yeah. Everything has 10 names there. That’s another, that’s another reason I, we needed you on here. Um.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Well…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, Ski… Ski Aalberg is… so, let’s just have a look at where you are. It’s gonna be slightly to the, uh, west.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.000Stuart Winchester: There it is. There it is. I found it.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, there you go, Ski Aalberg. So, Ski Aalberg… Aalberg is, like, a region of Austria that sits within Tyrol, one of the, uh, the cantons, and in fact, that is quite good, the level that you’ve got it at right there. You can see, just on the video that I’m looking at, uh, at the moment.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, there we go.00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That you’ve got St. Anton is sitting almost underneath where it says Ski Aalberg. It’s pretty easy to get to.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can get there… you can fly into either Innsbruck, or you can fly into Zurich. For, you know, I typically travel by train, but, you know, from both of those, it’s about an hour and a half or so by train.00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, roughly, uh, transfer time. A really good train station in St. Anton. And St. Anton…00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: is an amazing destination. I was lucky enough to learn to ski there, you know, when I was a kid.00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I think what… it ticks a lot of boxes. It does have, uh, maybe contrary to some people’s impressions, amazing food.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There’s, like, a Michelin-star restaurant at the mid-station, just above a resort, which is, you know, well worth checking out. But lots of resorts, lots of restaurants in the town as well.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Has legendary apres ski.00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There are two bars located opposite each other, which some listeners may have heard of, called the Crazy Kangaroo.00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And the moose avert.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And these are, like, legendary at the end of the day. Skiers will go there, they’ll be dancing on the tables, they’ll be, uh, you know, knocking back whatever they can, and then skiing down very, very carefully.00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, to the resort, the remaining, kind of, 500 meters or so. They do actually encourage people to get a bus back, uh, now, uh, if you can, because there is a little bit of a history of… of accidents, but those two, you know, have amazing apres ski.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:34.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good restaurants, but the ski area is fantastic. Ski Aalberg covers all of the resorts in that area. On the level of maps on at the moment, you can see over to the left, there’s an area called St. Christoph. You can link over to St. Christoph.00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can link over to Steuben, quite easy to ski over there, and then just to the north of the map, as we’re looking at it at the moment, will be Lech.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:17.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: which is also part of Ski Aalberg. You know, you can stay in Lech. I tend to favor St. Anton, there’s a lot more going on. Lech is a bit…00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: how can I put it? Posher, quite frankly. You know, frequented by the Dutch royal family and, uh, and others. You know, the British royal family historically used to go there as well. You can actually ski on Ski Arburg all the way up to that town called.00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Vaath, or Vaath, which is right at the top of the map. That is a very long day, and the connections to there are quite difficult. But it is a…00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, gosh.00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.000Stuart Winchester: You can ski from there to…00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, you could ski between there and St. Anton and back in a single day. You can get a certificate if you follow the whole route and do it. But it is a very large ski area. But St. Anton itself, really brilliant place to base yourself.00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: You’re saying, wow.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: Jeez.00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, lift connections are really good, the resort is really good, and, you know, that would be one of the reasons I would suggest that.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And just another kind of equivalent destination for the hero trip. Oh, sorry. Go on. Go on. Yes.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:18.000Stuart Winchester: Let me just pause and ask you one question about Ahlberg. So, you know, again, Americans are…00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:34.000Stuart Winchester: And that’s, I don’t want to mean to speak for the whole nation, but they tend to fall into the checklist trap where they’re just trying to get to everything. Would you recommend trying to ski from here to there, or would you recommend settling in, kind of enjoying a day at each, or maybe just.00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Hmm.00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:38.000Stuart Winchester: Seeing where the day takes you, not worrying about all the lifts.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I mean, I would only do that for a long way to go. I mean, it’s quite a long way to go to Lech and back for the day. And there is a lot of really good skiing in St. Anton. I actually tend to favor the St. Christoph Steuben.00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: area, because it doesn’t get skied as much as some of the other areas, and there’s a lot to ski there, so you can have peace to yourself, whereas it might be much busier closer to St. Anton. There’s actually another area you can see with the lifts that you’ve got there going slightly south.00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: from St. Anton, that goes to an area called Rendle, which is part of the Ski Arburg area. And, you know, Rendle is another really good ski area that’s often underskied. I mean, you could spend a day skiing over there on its own.00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:30.000Stuart Winchester: Is… is that… is that part of Ski Aalberg? On the Epic Pass? It is? Okay. Okay.00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s part of Schiberg as well, yeah.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, great. All right. Anwar, you were gonna tell us about another, I think, Austrian destination.00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I was gonna go the other… the other very obvious, I would say.00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Um…00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Big destination is Verbier.00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which I believe is also on the Epic Pass.00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so Verbier’s in Switzerland, quite close to Chamonix. You can drive between Chamonix and Verbier in an hour and a quarter. Again, you’d fly into Geneva.00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000Stuart Winchester: Ah, yeah, let’s…00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Oh, there it is.00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:56.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: really easy to get to from Geneva. You can actually get the train all the way from Geneva Airport direct to the town at the bottom of Verbier, which is called Le Chapelle, and then they have a gondola, which, uh… which you guys call a tram, I think, or, uh…00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:07.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.000Stuart Winchester: There.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s a bubble lift, however you want to term it, that goes directly from the valley floor, connects directly out of the railway station and up into Verbier.00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, Verbier…00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Brilliant resort. Such an amazing ski area. It’s actually listed on there as a Catra Valley, the Four Valleys, and that’s because it also includes several other resorts as well, which are called, I think, Lazu… you can just about see them. Lazuma, Nonda.00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and Vaesuna, which are just slightly to the north there.00:31:48.000 --> 00:32:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, so they’re all included in that area. It’s a big ski area, but Verbier has a lot going on. Uh, again, you know, good apres ski, really good, uh, restaurants, uh, but.00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Particularly for the more advanced skiers, there’s some incredible off-piste there. You know, you can…00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um… go off… off the back from the top of Mon4.00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: with a guide, just again, and there’s a huge area that can open up there. You can also do heli skiing out of Verbier to access some of the other peaks around there, but you can stay in the inbounds area and still ski a lot of really good off-piste.00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s high as well, you know, the resort itself is 1600 meters, and I think it goes up to.00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: 3… 2… I’m not 100% sure about that, but certainly high. So, you know, you have regular snow. I mean, I skied there in the last week of…00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: April last year.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:47.000 --> 00:33:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and there was still plenty of snow. Um, it’s, you know, it’s expensive. It’s not quite as expensive as, uh, Zermatt. It doesn’t have the view of the Matterhorn, but it is one of the world’s best ski resorts, for sure.00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: So that’s on Epic Pass, and it’s, you know, Vail has purchased a couple of ski areas at Kranz, Montana, and Andermatt-Suderun, and it’s also… the Epic Pass is unlimited on DeSantis, which is right.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:23.000Stuart Winchester: contiguous with the Entermeister Druun. If you have the Epic Pass, is it worth trying to do a trip with all of those, or is Verbier enough?00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And Verbier’s definitely enough for a whole week. If you had a car, Cro-Montana isn’t very far away, it would probably only take you…00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, an hour and a bit… I’m gonna say an hour and a quarter, perhaps, to, uh, get there. Cremontana’s a big area in itself. It’s, um… you know, I’ve skied there on many occasions, and I really like it. It’s not… I’ve been there…00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: On a family holiday.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Whereas…00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I would go to Verbier because I like to ski kind of, uh, steep and off-piste, uh, you know, with a guide. And probably it’s too expensive to take a family to. Cromontana is, uh, you know, a bit more, uh, affordable. I mean, it’s still a very smart, uh, resort.00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But if you wanted to explore, you could go there. Amount is a bit more of a stretch in terms of distance.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, if you were on a tour, and you’re an Epic Pass holder, you could take it in.00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now, I’m also a fan of Andermatt. I’ve been there several times, uh, as well. Again, probably go to Zurich for Andermatt. You can get the train from Zurich in about an hour and a half, something like that. And it’s a really interesting story, uh, Andermatt. You know, it used to be…00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Its location is strategically significant in the middle of several valleys. So at once upon a time, it used to be an army base.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And then, when the army, uh, withdrew, it kind of went into decline for a long time. And it was bought by, uh, the area was brought by a property developer.00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And ultimately, he built it up, and more recently, Vale Resorts have taken that over. And so there’s a lot of new accommodations, some incredibly nice restaurants. Again, more Michelin stars there. I’ve got a feeling…00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It might have the highest number of Michelin stars per capita for any.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: town in the world.00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the skiing itself, you know, again, I’ve been there with a guide, there’s some excellent off-piste skiing, but there’s, you know, a good amount of on-piste skiing as well.00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s a really, it’s really appealing area.00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:35.000Stuart Winchester: So you mentioned having a guide many times, and I think that’s, you know, in…00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Heh.00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, we generally only hire guides when we’re going outside of the resort, and a lot of folks don’t even do it then, if they’re confident in their own avalanche.00:35:45.000 --> 00:36:00.000Stuart Winchester: capabilities. In general, everything within resort boundaries in North America is considered to be patrolled and controlled, meaning they’ll do avalanche work, and if it’s open, you can go in it without a guide. There’s a few exceptions where you need transceivers, etc.00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:13.000Stuart Winchester: That’s not really the case in Europe, so just from a mentality standpoint, how should skiers approach this when they’re going to some of these hero resorts you’re talking about, as far as.00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000Stuart Winchester: Considering a guide in essential versus a luxury.00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay, I wouldn’t want to mislead you there. I mean, guides are just on my mind, because I like a lot of backcountry skiing, and therefore, I often, you know, go with them. In bounds, you don’t need a guide, absolutely not. You know, you can download the app, or get yourself a peace map, and you can.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: go around the place as much as you want, and, uh, you know, it is fully secured, you’ve got ski patrol, uh, etc, so you don’t need to be concerned about that. It just happens that a lot of the places that I’ve mentioned so far, you know, do have some of those more interesting off-piste options, and I guess it depends a bit on the listener and, you know, what they’re, uh, looking for, but you… you don’t…00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: need to have a guide to show you around resorts. I mean, potentially, some of these ski areas are.00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: significantly larger than they might come across in North America, and therefore.00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it could be a good investment to rent someone or to hire someone to show you around. I mean, back in the day, in the 90s, when I was working in the Alps, I worked for British tour operators, and part of my job was showing guests around the mountains and helping them orientate themselves.00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that actually is pertinent, because the next resort I wanted, or area I wanted to mention, was Le Trois Vallees, Le Three Valleys.00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Which…00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: Also on Epic Pass.00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: also is on Epic Pass. Now, the three valleys…00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: probably has a pretty good awareness amongst the North American market. I mean, it is the world’s largest ski area.00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:53.000 --> 00:38:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There’s 600 kilometers apiece there, and I work four seasons in the three valleys, three in Meribel and one in Courchevel.00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.000Stuart Winchester: Peace.00:37:58.000 --> 00:37:59.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it is.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: magnificent in terms of scale. There is so much skiing you can do there, and, you know, I worked four winters there. Did I ski every single run, you know, during that time? I doubt it.00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, because you tend to go back and forth across a lot of them. Uh, you know, there is so much that it’s gonna take you well more than a week if you wanted to, uh.00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: ski them all, but you could certainly explore the three valleys.00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, I… it’s hard to know exactly which of those destinations to recommend, because it depends on the individuals to…00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: put it in context, you have three valleys, literally, over, if we were looking on the map, the left-hand side, you would have Courchevel.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle, Maribel.00:38:49.000 --> 00:39:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and the right-hand side, Val Torrens. I think as we look at the map at the moment, it’s the opposite way round. So we can see on the left, you’ve got Val Torrens at the top. That’s the highest ski resort in Europe. It’s 2,300 meters itself, the resort. Not high by, like, Colorado standards or something like that, but high by European standards.00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s above the tree line, uh, you know, it’s changed a lot in recent years, but there’s a lot of apartment accommodation there, there’s a lot of nice four- and five-star hotels up there, uh, as well, but it doesn’t have.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Like, if you were coming to Europe for the first time, it doesn’t have the kind of character, the charisma.00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that some other resorts, let’s say, like Verbier, or Zermatt, or St. Anton have, because it’s modern, you know, it was built in the 1970s, so it’s a purpose-built, uh, resort. Also, in that valley slightly lower down, you have Leymanduia, more.00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Prettier, you know, at the bottom, you’ve got a place called San Martin.00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The middle valley, Meribel.00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: that is lots of pretty chocolate box chalets. Uh, you know, I worked 3 years there. It’s brilliantly connected. Uh, the resort itself is between 1,400 and 1,800 meters, so it’s pretty high.00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, it’s a good…00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: base, I’d still, if you were thinking about that, I’d still, you know, without wishing to offend any of my friends in Mirabal, and I have very many of them, I’d probably say if you think about a week and you wanted to base yourself somewhere.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Maybe Verbier or Saint Anton.00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: would be a better choice for that. They both have, you know, still big ski areas, and just a little bit more accessibility, uh, you know, overall.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel, again, a resort I love that I worked in for a season.00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There’s several different…00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: um, what the French call station, different levels within Courchevel.00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Courchevel 1850, most people will have heard of. It’s a top station. It’s at 1850 meters. It is very shishy. Five and six star hotels, 13 Michelin stars.00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, across the resort, it… you can’t find… well, I have stayed there in a couple of budget accommodations, but there’s not really budget accommodation. You know, if you want to go and…00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: to a resort where you may well end up, you know, sharing a hotel with, I don’t know, Leo DiCaprio, or, you know, you might find a member of the British Royals there, or David Beckham, then that’s the kind of place to go.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But you’re going to have to pay to go along with that. And it has fantastic skiing.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But again.00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: if you’re only coming for a shorter period of time, I’d be inclined to mention a couple of the other resorts I mentioned, plus…00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I want to mention Valdezare as well, but I don’t think Valdezare is on any of the collective passes, is it?00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Uh, is it part of one of these bigger…00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.000Stuart Winchester: Domains or.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: No, it is not. I mean, there is a, uh… so it’s not going to come up on your map.00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But Valdisera is a brilliant…00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, resort, which does give you traditional skiing, a pretty village, a huge, uh, ski area that links up to Teen, where they have a glacier, so you can kind of guarantee that you’re going to be able to get skiing. Skiing goes up to 3,500 meters there.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And I met Americans there, so Americans certainly know about it. I met a family from, you know, Florida who were in the Folly Deuce, who were enjoying themselves in the VIP area and very kindly, you know, offered us some of their champagne.00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, at the time. You know, Founders Area is a brilliant resort, not covered on any of those passes. That doesn’t mean that it’s not necessarily going to be, you know, a good option, uh, for you. You know, lift tickets.00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:42:53.000 --> 00:43:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: are going to be, you know, dirt cheap compared to the States, but maybe still, like, 80 euros a day, or something like that, you know, overall, but a really good ski area. So those are all… I think we’ve covered all of the, kind of, the bigger.00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:18.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: kind of places there, unless you’ve got any other questions in relation to any of them. Oh, no, hold on! We’ve missed one! We’ve missed one! Dolomitiski!00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.000Stuart Winchester: No. Yeah.00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That’s on Icon, isn’t it?00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, well, Dolomiti Super Ski is on Icon, Skirama Dolomiti is on Epic. They each have, like, 100 ski areas, it seems like, so… yeah, this is how they’re pitched to us. I don’t know how you want to make sense to them on the ground… of them on the ground.00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, let’s talk Dolomiti superskis. That’s where the Winter Olympics were last year. Milan Cortina. Cortina is in the Dolomites. And it is a huge superski area, you know, depending how you do the definitions, it’s larger.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: than L’Etoile Vallee.00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, but…00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Sometimes that means getting a bus in between. Uh, it is…00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It is great. You could fly into Innsbruck, you could fly into Venice, you can combine that with a trip to Venice, or maybe Verona, or Milan. They’re all about equidistance from the Dolomiti Sufski.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s visually accurate.00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Absolutely stunning. The Dolomites are just an amazing mountain range. I found myself when I was skiing in Val Gardena, which we’ll come to right in the middle of your map at the moment, just being distracted.00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m looking at the mountains, because they’re just so gorgeous. I’m skiing down this piste. You know, looking at this mountain, thinking, oh my god, this is just amazing. And then on top of that, you know, you have.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:36.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Italian cuisine, Italian prices, you know, yeah, Cortina’s the most expensive. Again, quite a lot of, uh, you know, Milanese would go up there for the weekend, but, you know, overall, Selva, again, roughly around the middle of your, uh, map at the moment. Yeah, really…00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Really good value, you know, considering it’s a really good access point for a fantastic ski area.00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And it has…00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: The Superski is not a misnomer. It is a very large ski area.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And there’s some amazing circuits that you can do there. So I would probably recommend, if you were thinking about it, Cortina or Silva Val Gardena would be the two best places to locate yourself.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: And do you like Superski over Vail’s Skirama Dolomiti group? And again, I’ve dug in a little bit, but I didn’t include on this map what that…00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.000Stuart Winchester: contains, and I dropped the pin here on, uh, Campo Carlomagno, but…00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: It includes a lot of things in, you know, almost equal.00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I’m gonna have to put my hand up and say I don’t know that area as well. I haven’t actually skied there myself. It is, to my mind, and I can check your stats because I’ve got it in front of me, you’re saying it’s roughly the same skiable area.00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right. Was that the vertical drop?00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.000Stuart Winchester: That’s the stats that…00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: or on the Epic Pass website.00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.000Stuart Winchester: Which I’ve yeah.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I think the Dolomiti Super Ski is significantly bigger than what’s available at Ski-Rama Dolomiti. Yeah, it’s a possibility. It wouldn’t be my…00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:30.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: If I was sending someone to the Dolomites, I would suggest probably that I would go for Selva Val Gardena or Cortina as being the two locations. Cortina being the slightly more expensive Shishi destination and Val Gardena.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, being the more affordable, but in fact, brilliantly located.00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:42.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so you wanted to start with the kind of hero trips and then take us into the next level.00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Heh.00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:49.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, I mean, I guess it depends, you know, how long you would be thinking about going for.00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But I noticed that on the Indy Pass, Innsbruck is covered.00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:00.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And Innsbruck is a really good destination.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it often gets overlooked, you know, people just kind of pass through Innsbruck, but I’ve based myself, you know, in Innsbruck before. You can actually see that if you stay in Innsbruck, if you don’t go too close in.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:10.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, really?00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: there are a lot of ski resorts in a very, uh, close proximity to it. So, it’s a city itself. People live there, you know? It has everything you’d think a city would have, but without it being.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:33.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Very big. There is actually a ski area immediately.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: above the, uh, the town itself, called Nordketter, which is pretty small. But what’s great about being based in Innsbruck is you can get to other ski areas within…00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:37.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: half an hour, you can get to, uh, um, a ski area. Uh, I’m just looking at the map there. Oh, yeah, it closed in. Okay, so Kutai is not very far away, about, you know, 30 minutes.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m looking at a map and just getting my head around what’s going on there.00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the Innsbruck Ski and City Network that’s on India covers 12 ski areas, and I didn’t mark them all on this map, so again, I made this one in.00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I…00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I think that’s a really slightly under the radar type of a destination that you can go to, you can base yourself there, you can enjoy. There’s a lot of culture, there’s a lot of history there.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, in terms of the, the Habsburg Empire, et cetera, the different museums, uh, that you can go and visit as well. Uh, but it’s a very modern city. They’ve got an amazing, um.00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh…00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:52.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: funicular that’s designed by Zaha Hadid, that’s won awards, and you’re within 30 to 40 minutes of a lot of ski areas, so I don’t exactly know what the 12 are, but it’s probably Solden, which you can see there, you know, that’s going to be the.00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Well, Sultans aren’t epic.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Ah, right, okay.00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so let me see if I can bring up the, uh…00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: at…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Kutai, but I still rate it as a destination, and even if you’re going up there and you actually had to buy a ticket for the day, it’s not going to be that much. You’ve got several glaciers nearby, and you can fly into the city itself. I mean, I don’t know if you get…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right.00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:19.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: transatlantic flights into Innsbruck.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: I’m not certain. I’d have to check.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That would be.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:30.000Stuart Winchester: So, let’s see, if we go to Austria, and okay, this is the list, the ones in yellow.00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, just…00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Ah, right, okay, so Stubai is included. Rakutai is included, that’s only half an hour away, that’s about 60 kilometers apiece. I’ve done a family holiday there, you know, really good. Nordketter that I mentioned is the one just above Innsbruck itself.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, yeah, you know, there’s plenty of skiing there. They’ve got, um, you know, connections that you can take to all of these different ski resorts, uh, on a daily basis. I really like that as a kind of underrated, different cultural experience that you could, uh, that you could go for.00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you only get 2 days between all 12 on Indy, but there are a bunch of other Indy.00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:24.000Stuart Winchester: mountains around there. I don’t even know how to pronounce these things, but they’re all on the map, and I have the charts, which I’ll include in the article that accompanies us on stormskiing.com. But if you have an Indy Pass and you’re in the area, anything else you see here that you’re like, oh, that’s pretty cool. So again, the Indy are the red pins.00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right.00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m looking at your list there, you know, Obertower, and Karnatal, and Glacier, Pitstala. Yeah, you know, there’s some really good skiing that’s going to cover quite a lot. Shevelt.00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:53.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s a bit further away, but that’s a big ski area as well. You know, slightly lower, but, uh, you know, really nice connections. And what I didn’t realize, and I mentioned this in relation to St. Anton earlier, is that, you know, historically, people have thought of Austria as having, kind of.00:50:53.000 --> 00:51:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I don’t know, quite sort of, like, let’s say, lumpy cuisine. The Italians get all their credit, but the food in Austria, you know, is really good. It’s completely different from.00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: what people’s preconceptions, uh, might be. It’s definitely worth going there and experiencing it, just for the gastronomy side of things as well.00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.000Stuart Winchester: And how much is it?00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:23.000Stuart Winchester: worth focusing on those big names, the, you know, Arlbergs and the Verbiers, and… and the, uh…00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:26.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Zermatti, is it?00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:38.000Stuart Winchester: if you want to go to, like… so, for example, if we were to do this show in the flip, right, and I were to take you through where to go in America on passes.00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: I would give you the big ones, but there’s a lot of little ones where you could have a really good ski day. It might not be the complete…00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:52.000Stuart Winchester: you know, American ski experience, but you’d have a lot of fun. So…00:51:52.000 --> 00:52:08.000Stuart Winchester: How would you describe the smaller, all these little ones we’ve never heard of that, that Indy are signing up as, you know, just a place to stop and ski for a day? Is it worth just maybe doing that and hopping around on, on a road trip?00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.000Stuart Winchester: And if so, are there any of these that stand out for you?00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:15.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, that’s a really good question, and, you know, I…00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:30.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you’re… I know you’re a fan of independent ski resorts, and, uh, you know, I recently, uh, interviewed Eric Mogensen, who you’ve interviewed before, and he’s obviously incredibly passionate about independent ski resorts, and I think it’s important, because one of the points he made to me is.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: if we don’t visit these places, you know, they’re gonna go out of business, aren’t they? So we need to go to them as well, we can’t just focus on them. And there are some really good ones on that list. Um…00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:35.000Stuart Winchester: Ja.00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Let’s see, lacontamine.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That’s near to Chamonix. It’s a pretty small resort. It’s at the end of the valley.00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:52:51.000 --> 00:53:06.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: So it doesn’t… you know, a lot of people… you can… you can kind of see exactly on that map there, the road just stops at Le Contamine, right? So you’ve got to make a bit of an effort to go up there. But I skied there… I’ve skied there only two days ever.00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:58.000Stuart Winchester: Ja.00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.000Stuart Winchester: Hi.00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:08.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But it’s brilliant.00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:08.000Stuart Winchester: Ja.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:10.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s brilliant, because…00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:23.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it’s a big ski area, it’s a big bowl at the end of the valley. You know, I know lots of resorts claim they have, like, a microclimate, but it does have this microclimate. It collects all the snow that comes along that, uh, valley.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s quiet, and you can see from the lifts there.00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, that’s a decent ski area. It doesn’t actually… it’s slightly misleading, that map, because it doesn’t link in with the Megeve ski area.00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Lake Contamine, but that’s good, because it means the people from Meshev can’t get over there. So, it’s, uh, I mean, you could, you could do it by a bootwhacking a bit, but, uh, you know, Lake Contamine, really good one. If you were doing a tour and you wanted to visit a more independent place, then that would be a really good one. Another one.00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:42.000Stuart Winchester: Ich.00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:44.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.000Stuart Winchester: Ja.00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: is Pila in the Aosta Valley, so it’s going to be slightly to the right on your map, uh, there. I can see it there in purple.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Now it’s over on the left there.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:10.000Stuart Winchester: Alles.00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, so Pila…00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Again, I don’t… I know that we discussed the Eostre Vale being included on the Icon Pass, and Pila is in…00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mhm.00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: It’s on both Indy and Icon, it’s just weird exception, yeah.00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:22.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: There you’ll still…00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It is. Okay. So…00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Just Pila, just Pila.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:27.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay, well, Pilar…00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, is a small resort, uh, although a decent, uh, ski area. You know, off the top of my head, I would guess it probably has, you know, like a 60 kilometers or something like that. But it sits above a town called Aosta. The valley is called Aosta. And if you’re doing a tour, staying in Aosta is actually great.00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:54:44.000 --> 00:55:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: there’s a strong, uh, Roman, uh, connection with that town. And in fact, you can see there, it says Teatro Romano on that, uh, when you went in closer. You know, there’s an old Roman amphitheater that you can have a little wander around. There’s arches, uh, in the town there that you can have a look at.00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, jeez.00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:03.000Stuart Winchester: Look at that.00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And, you know, you get…00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: a sense of that history if you’re staying down in Aosta, and then there’s a… you can see the lift that connects up from Aosta into the Pila ski area. So, that, if you wanted to visit a more of an independent, uh, resort, is a really interesting way.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: of doing it that perhaps, you know, people wouldn’t necessarily think of.00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:31.000Stuart Winchester: So these… it’s weird when you zoom out, right? And…00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I have them in different colors for countries, and you can’t really see the names of them right now, but really, it’s all kind of Alps, right?00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:53.000Stuart Winchester: But there’s also some places outside the Alps that have joined these passes. One that I find really interesting, just because I really like this part of the world, is these areas up in Scandinavia. I mean, if you just want something different.00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes?00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:58.000Stuart Winchester: Right? And your expectation is not mind-blowing skiing, but just…00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: to see it for the novelty. What do you think about flying in to Norway, renting a car, and just kind of popping around all these places up here, Norway, Finland, and Sweden?00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:26.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, well, again, firstly, I haven’t skied there myself, but on the Ski Podcast, we have covered most of these destinations, because there is, from the UK market, an increasing interest in going over to Scandinavia, and I think partly that is because there’s a sense that.00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: They have better snow reliability.00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: because they’re further north, they’re less subject to any climate change issues. I think the difference is that you’re going to get skiing in Scandinavia is you don’t get as big a vertical drop. The mountains are not as high as they are in the Alps, so.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, typically, you know, the… I mean, sometimes you can ski down. I have lots of friends who’ve been ski touring, who can… will do it from sea level.00:56:56.000 --> 00:56:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:12.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and ski tour up, but you’re talking about much shorter vertical drops, so it might be 3, 4, 500 meters, uh, as opposed to some of the, you know, the big vertical drops that you can get, like in Zermatt, you can ski from 3,800 down to 1,400, so that’s a.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: A massive, massive run!00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: to do in one go, which is next to impossible. You would possibly set that against Scandinavia being pretty expensive as well.00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, that might be how we view it from Britain, you know, converting. I don’t know how it would relate in the US dollar, but, you know, from the UK, Scandinavia, Sweden, and Norway would be equivalent to…00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.000Stuart Winchester: It’s the same.00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, the Zermatt Switzerland kind of prices.00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: If you get a package.00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:57.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: it can save you money, and the lift ticket isn’t necessarily more expensive. It’s more about, if you want to buy a pint, buy yourself a beer at the end of the day, then be prepared, because it’s going to be quite expensive.00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:01.000Stuart Winchester: Gosh, is it like Iceland? I was driving around Iceland, and I’m.00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: I just want to grab a beer to have at my Airbnb afterwards, we had a baby at the time.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mm-hmm.00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.000Stuart Winchester: And I go into, like, 4 grocery stores, and they all have…00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay.00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:26.000Stuart Winchester: Beer, that’s like 0. 01%. I’m like, where you can get a beer in this country? Like, oh, you have to go to a, a state owned store. These stores are open from like 11 to 5, like four days a week. So it took me a long time to find a beer. And when I did, it was like.00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:33.000Stuart Winchester: $50 for a, uh, for a 12-pack of cans. I was like, oh my god.00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay.00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:50.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Okay. Well, I don’t think it’s quite that difficult to get a drink in Sweden and Norway, but it is an option. And you mentioned some of the, you know, other destinations. Let’s take the Pyrenees. So, the Pyrenees is that range of mountains that runs between Spain and France.00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:58.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And you’ve got a couple of areas highlighted there. So taking the one on the left to start off with, which is Bakira Beret.00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:14.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And that is the largest ski resort in Spain. You know, you would get a lot of people from Barcelona going up there. It’s gone quite upmarket in recent years. The Spanish royal family have often skied there, has a really good snow record.00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:23.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You might think that’s surprising, because it’s quite a long way south. But that is… remind me what pass that one is included on? It’s on the Indy Pass.00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.000Stuart Winchester: This is on Andy. Yep.00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay. You know, and it’s… it’s a good ski area, and if you’re doing a tour.00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: and you wanted to try something different from the Alps, and get a bit of Spanish culture.00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:37.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: That would be really interesting.00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: At…00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and Spain tends to be less expensive, although I heard that may be changing a bit.00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yes. No, no, no. I would definitely agree with that. It’s definitely less expensive overall. I mean, Bakira Beret.00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so… yeah.00:59:47.000 --> 01:00:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: These days, you’ll find a few champagne bars there. It’s not going to be as cheap as some of, you know, the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, but it still would represent much better value for money than, you know, a lot of the bigger resorts in Europe.00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s right.00:59:55.000 --> 00:59:57.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:03.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:09.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And then Andorra, Gran Valera, covers several different resorts.01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:09.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s a decent ski area, and not quite as good a snow record, but…01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:28.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I haven’t been there, uh, myself. I skied lots of the French Pyrenees, but not the Andorran, uh, Pyrenees. But, we have friends, uh, you know, who go there every year, and they absolutely, uh, love it.01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:42.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: if I was… it sits on the Icon Pass, you know, if I had an Icon Pass and I was thinking about where I was going to go, I probably wouldn’t make that, you know, my priority, given that some of the other, you know, great options that you’ve got with Icon.01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:46.000Stuart Winchester: Right, right. All right. Yeah.01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:52.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You could go to Dolomiti or you could go to Val de Oster. I think I probably prioritize that over going to Andorra.01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s. Yeah.01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:54.000Stuart Winchester: So the cool thing about…01:00:54.000 --> 01:01:12.000Stuart Winchester: Europe. I mean, I’m bucketing this by pass, just because that’s how we have been trained as American consumers to think about skiing, because if you don’t have a pass, it’s very hard to just hop around and ski. And you could do that 20 years ago here, but you really can’t do it anymore, because the walk-up prices are.01:00:57.000 --> 01:00:59.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yep.01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:29.000Stuart Winchester: $300 and upwards at the bigger resorts on the peak days and the peak of winter. And even on low days, they’re going to be over $200, which is just not worth it for any day of skiing that doesn’t involve a helicopter. So, you know, I’m bucketing these bypasses. You probably don’t.01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.000Stuart Winchester: Need a pass to go to Europe, so…01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:43.000Stuart Winchester: If you don’t have a pass, and you’re not locked into these, and you called out a couple that weren’t here, are there any big holes anywhere where you think…01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:51.000Stuart Winchester: a skier really shouldn’t overlook this region as a consideration just because it’s not on their pass? Or… region or ski area?01:01:51.000 --> 01:02:05.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, okay. I mean, that’s a really interesting question. I guess the most obvious one is what I mentioned before, which is Val d’Azur. You know, Val d’Azur is definitely one of the best, the world’s best ski resorts, ski areas, and it’s not included on there at all.01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:07.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Um, and in that…01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:11.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Valley, which is called the Tarantes.01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:24.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: we mentioned the Three Valleys, which is one of the first areas that you would go past, uh, on the way. But a bit further, uh, along that valley, you can also ski in, uh, Les Arc.01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:29.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: uh, you know, La Plan, those two together are called Paradisky.01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:38.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: You know, they are… it’s a big ski area, again, some really good skiing there. If it was going to be your only ever trip.01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:39.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: To Europe?01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:55.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I probably would recommend, you know, going to Val d’Isere or, uh, or Les Trois Vallees instead, but, you know, I’m a big fan of Les Arc. It’s more apartments, they do have hotels there as well, but they’ve got it right in the middle, uh, there, which is great.01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you can’t, uh, quite… yeah, you can see La Planne in the bottom left of that map. So those two areas link together. So there’s a massive amount of skiing if you want to, uh, if you want to do it, and it’s high, and it’s typically, you know, north-facing, so it’s… snow is, uh, is really good around there.01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But if you’re coming from the States.01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:22.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, I would go to Val d’Isere or L’Etoile Vallee if I was going to that area instead.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this is so good, Ian, and I mean, we could do this all day. In the interest of respecting your time, because we’re already a half hour over what I made this call for, anything else you want to call out.01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:46.000Stuart Winchester: in Europe, European skiing, that if someone’s coming from North America and making the investments, that they should see, or do, or think about, or be aware of, or go to?01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:57.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I mean, I guess the only other thoughts are… because we’ve covered, you know, a lot of them. There’s two that… or three that aren’t on your map at the moment. I was very…01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I don’t know, amused, interested to see that the two Scottish resorts, Glencoe and Glenshee, are included on the Indy Pass. Now, I’m definitely not going to recommend that someone comes all the way from the States to go and ski there.01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: purely for that. But if you’re on a business trip, let’s say, and that business trip happened to take you to Glasgow or Edinburgh, and it happened to be snowy at that time, I think you would find it really interesting going to probably, you know, Glencoe over Glenshee.01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:16.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Firstly, it’s absolutely beautiful, the area. I mean, Glencoe itself is an incredible valley to drive along. And the ski area is, you know, they don’t claim it’s a three valley. It’s pretty limited.01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.01:04:48.000 --> 01:05:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: It’s Scottish skiing, and you just have to have a bit of luck, and if you have a bit of luck, you can have incredible skiing. And, you know, my, um, my family, my mum, you know, came from Scotland and learned to ski around that area, and I’ve been up there a few times, and at the moment.01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:56.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:01.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:13.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I have a gap in my diary in January, and it says Scotland in there. But what… because…01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:22.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: the snow can come and go very quickly. I’ll have to just decide, you know, a few days beforehand if that’s going to work. If it looks alright.01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:23.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I’m going.01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:24.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:32.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: But, you know, even from Brighton, you know, south coast of England, I mean, we’re in the same country, but it’s still quite a long way away. So those are two…01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.000Stuart Winchester: Would you still do train?01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:47.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, I would do train. You can get the, uh, Caledonian Sleeper overnight train from London to Edinburgh, and in fact, it goes all the way through to very close to Glencoe, so that would work, uh, that would work really well. So, fingers crossed.01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.000Stuart Winchester: Sure. Okay. Okay.01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:36.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:56.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, for… for that one. And the other ones I wanted to mention that are definitely off the beaten track are in Turkey, which are also on the Indy Pass, I would guess.01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:58.000Stuart Winchester: Yes, all three of these are in Indy.01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:57.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, and, you know, again.01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:03.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: If…01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you wanted to build in, or you were going to a business meeting, let’s say in Istanbul, or something like that, I think it would be super interesting. I haven’t skied in these areas, but they’re definitely on my list, you know, to ski in. We have covered them on the Ski Podcast, uh, before.01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:22.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: And…01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:34.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: there’s a real interest in skiing in Turkey, and not… not specifically from the UK, but across Europe, you know, they’re drawing in… these areas, you might think of them as being…01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:51.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: your typical cliched assumption would be, oh, they’re a bit old, they’ve probably got really old lifts, etc. They’re investing a lot of money in these areas. They’re getting a lot of that increasing middle class coming from the Stans, who are just over to the east of there.01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:06:51.000 --> 01:07:02.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Kazakhstans and, uh, all the rest of them. Yeah, Georgia, uh, you know, there we go, that shows it pretty well. Uh, you know, they’re getting a lot of people coming over from there to ski.01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:55.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:04.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Uh, and…01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:16.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: I think it looks really interesting. Turkey’s a really fast-moving country at the moment. I’d love to go to Istanbul. You know, it’s definitely on my list of places to try out. So, I wouldn’t come to Europe.01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:31.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: from the States, just to ski in Turkey, but if, by chance, you’re an IndyPass holder, and you happen to be going nearby, I mean, even if you’re going to Georgia or something like that, you know, it’s probably not going to affect a high proportion of your listeners, but there’ll be someone out there, yeah, go on.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:35.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Go and have a look at them. It’s probably worth buying the IndiePass just for that.01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’ve been watching some of the nations, like, I just wrote about the ski areas in China.01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: And like everything else in China, they’re brand new because they didn’t build ski resorts till, you know, 20 years ago. So so, you know, whereas in Japan, every ski resort has four abandoned chairlifts and, you know, in America, every resort has a 60 year old double chair.01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:43.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Right.01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah. Okay.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Mmhm.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:13.000Stuart Winchester: These new resorts are being built brand new with brand new technology. And I think as we see more regions rise to the middle class, as you’re saying, I think we’ll start to see more of these places in these mountain regions that maybe we’re not thinking about right now.01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:20.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s super interesting, the development of skiing. You know, in Europe.01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:36.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: like in the States, I think, you know, the overall audience has matured, you know, to a certain degree. We don’t have as many younger people coming through, and although people are skiing until a later age.01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:45.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: you know, it’s a mature audience, whereas the growth is coming in Asia, and that is, you know, super interesting.01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:08:47.000 --> 01:09:02.000Stuart Winchester: All right, Ian, that was awesome. That’s an awesome orientation to European skiing. I hope it was helpful to the listeners. I am happy to flip it around and do one for your listeners in North America, if that’s ever something you’re interested in.01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:16.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, because if you are gonna come over and ski here, you definitely need a pass, or else you’re in for some shock, or unless you got a billion dollars in your bank account, then good for you. Uh, but thanks so much, Ian, I really appreciate it, and I hope you have an awesome winter.01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:22.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Cool! That’s great, Stuart. Same to you, and, you know, I really enjoy listening to the storm, so keep it going.01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:24.000Stuart Winchester: Thanks so much, Ian. Talk to you soon.01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:25.000Iain - The Ski Podcast: Alright, ciao.01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:45.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Ian Martin of the Ski Podcast. All right, that is going to be our show for today. I will get to some listener reaction on tomorrow’s show, which will feature Brian Bench, the founder of Snow Schoolers.01:09:45.000 --> 01:10:01.000Stuart Winchester: Disrupting the lesson world. Uh, for more content, you will want to subscribe to the Storm Skiing Newsletter at stormskiing.com. The best way to support the storm is to upgrade to a paid subscription. Uh, but you can start with the free and the emails and, and podcasts will come right to your inbox.01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:15.000Stuart Winchester: The only way to interact with the podcast is to be a paid subscriber. You also get all of the written content below the paywall, which is most of what I write. You can rep the Storm with a shirt or hat or other swag at our Storm store.01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: You can buy those items, stormskiing.myshopify.com. Follow The Storm on YouTube, Instagram, and…01:10:21.000 --> 01:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: my wife tells me there’s a TikTok now, she’s running a lot of our social game these days, at Storm Ski Journal on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. Till next time, stay well, stay safe, I am Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Stuff referenced in podcast:* The Salt Lake Tribune profiles Clint Richins of Logan, who wants the State of Utah to open a ski area where “he can take his family skiing without breaking the bank.” Clint, you have an open invitation if you want to come on the pod.* Vail Resorts acknowledges Oasis Management’s nomination of four new board members.* Lift Blog reported Friday that Giants Ridge, Minnesota is seeking a new operator - and I have one in mind. The ski area also updated its master development plan.* Plus listener reaction to several of last week’s posts: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Bear DenTranscriptsThere are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them. Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. This is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the CEO of Bear Den Partners, which operates four New England ski areas. His family has operated 1,180 vertical-foot Berkshire East, Massachusetts since 1976, and acquired 1,000 vertical-foot Catamount on the New York-Massachusetts border in 2018.01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:53.000Stuart Winchester: In 2025, the family teamed up with a local group to acquire 2,057 vertical foot Burke Mountain out of receivership. And earlier this year, Bairdan purchased a majority stake in Smuggler’s Notch, which with 2,610 vertical feet, 1,060 acres across three mountains, and 322 inches of average annual snowfall, is one of the largest, snowiest, and most fun ski areas in eastern North America. John Schaefer is my guest. John is a very good friend of the storm, and I welcome him back.01:14:53.000 --> 01:14:56.000Stuart Winchester: How is life leading up to ski season, John?01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: Oh, is what?01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.000Stuart Winchester: How is life?01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: How is life? It’s good.01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what delayed you today?01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: I’m, uh…01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, a skunk. So I’m a little tired. I have some Diet Pepsi here to kickstart the day, but my dog got a skunk, uh, first thing, which is great.01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: Good.01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Let’s go.01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: Massachusetts.01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:19.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it was better once I opened the door and it all came wafting into the house.01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:28.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, God, Berkshire’s living. All right, well, I appreciate you fighting through that and joining us here, John. So, let’s talk smugs, first of all, because.01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:44.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Bill Stritzler, I have a ton of respect for what he did at Smuggler’s Notch, and how he’s maintained the atmosphere, and it’s consistently voted one of skier… by skiers as one of their favorite mountains, one of the best family mountains. It’s also just a badass expert mountain.01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:46.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the…01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:48.000Stuart Winchester: the…01:15:48.000 --> 01:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: issue that comes up over and over again is, of course, the chairlifts. There are 7 haul lifts. They are a combined 392 years old. Uh, they are a combined 29,439 feet long. That’s 5.58 miles. Uh, Madonna is the oldest.01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:21.000Stuart Winchester: 6,719-foot-long 1963 haul, it got a new top terminal in 2002, which I believe is the drive terminal. Sterling is the next longest, it’s a 1964 haul, and the Village Lift is the next longest at 5,155 feet, that’s 1967, so…01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:28.000Stuart Winchester: those are sort of the three main lifts, and then there’s some other little lifts, Madonna 2 and a T-bar and such, but… but John…01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:39.000Stuart Winchester: I think everyone wants to know, what are you gonna do about the Lyft fleet at Smug’s, because you have a contingent that loves the old Lyfts and doesn’t want you to, but you have another contingent that’s like…01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:44.000Stuart Winchester: That’s why I don’t go there. So what do you have in mind? What can you tell us?01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I mean, it’s a problem that’s highlighted by all the fun facts you just gave us here. And give you credit for that, going back to the announcement letter and post that you did.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: It’s the balance between preservation and conservation, right? I mean, it’s an environmental argument, it’s a scary management argument, it’s… do you preserve it, and do you keep it just exactly like it is?01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Or do you conserve an asset on into the future? And that’s a fancy way of saying that, nice try, you’re not going to quite get the answer today.01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, we have to have some reality here, right? Which is…01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those lifts are in excellent shape.01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: maintenance going on through the years and decades will become harder and harder and harder. And we’re gonna have to address the problems.01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: before they become problems. So.01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Eyes wide open.01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are looking at everything at Smuggler’s Notch, including the lift system.01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: Also, in perfect honesty, there isn’t just.01:17:55.000 --> 01:18:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: a single plan that’s gonna work there. You know, there’s not.01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, there’s not an endless pool of capital to go through and replace. How many? How many lineal feet of lift is that.01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:10.000Stuart Winchester: 29,439.01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, that’s just under six miles of lift line.01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, that’s a lot right? And it’s a pretty big, angry mountain.01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:23.000Jonathan Schaefer: So when you look at that hillside and you contemplate driving.01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Concrete up to the top, or…01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, you’re flying helicopters in, and it’s a massive project.01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: So, we have to just do…01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: the right amount of work to keep that mountain, you know, going and thriving into the future. But also, you know, to your point, you know, people love it. You know, people love these mountains. They love them to death sometimes. We don’t want that to happen.01:18:49.000 --> 01:19:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, but we respect everybody’s point of view and we’re just gonna have to work with our community to, to sort of telegraph those changes when they come up. And right now there’s, uh, there’s no major changes. You know, I don’t have a.01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: an SE group plan that I can peel off the desk here and lay it out in front of you and show you exactly what’s going on. I think that we’ve been around long enough that we got an idea, but we’re not quite there yet.01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:27.000Stuart Winchester: I think the big question for Smugs that I’ve been trying to figure out for a while is, if you want the throwback experience in New England, you just drive an hour down the road to Mount River Glen, and they have a single chair that goes 2,000 vertical feet, and they have great terrain, and they’ve put a lot of money into creating.01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:38.000Stuart Winchester: the facade of being a 1940s ski area. But it’s modern, they groom, they make snow below 20-whatever, 100 feet. So, the question, I think, for Smuggler’s Notch is.01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Is there room for a second throwback ski area in New England, and do you want it to be that? Do you want, for example, to say, no, we’ll never put in a high-speed lift, like smug should have slow lifts even if they’re, even if they’re new, uh, or, you know, the lift.01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: The trail footprint should stay. Do you have any thoughts on modernization?01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, it really gets to capacity, Stuart. And this is, this is, it’s like this, it’s almost like the saber metrics of skiing, right? Like where the numbers, what do they mean? I’m sitting here at Berkshire East and pardon the screwdriver, it’s my pointer.01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I’ve got two lifts in front of me.01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: One’s a high speed quad that moves around 600 people per hour, and one’s a sky track quad.01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: with over twice as many chairs. It does. It’s rated to move up to 2,400 people per hour.01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:29.000Stuart Winchester: Wait, your high-speed quad moves 600 people an hour?01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: 1600.01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: Sorry, I may have misspoke.01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we can bump it to 1800.01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: But you know, right out here I got a fixed script that moves more people than a high speed.01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Now…01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: up the road from me is another mountain, Berkshire Snowmason. It no longer exists. It was founded by a World War II vet. And he has a great quote from the early 1960s, where he says.01:20:55.000 --> 01:21:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: People care more about how they go up the mountain than how they look coming down it.01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: And at the time, he was complaining about a ski lift that went in at Jiminy Peak, where he had T-bars, and he felt that he had been left behind. So there’s a lot of different emotions. There’s, like, the raw numbers.01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Fixed scripts are great. They a lot of butts in the air. My dad.01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think it was talking to Everett Kircher, and that’s what Everett used to tell him. He used to say.01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Their butts are in the air, you know, and not on the hill.01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so you either have people in a line, on a lift, or on a trail.01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: If you accelerate one of those numbers, they’re gonna show up someplace else. It’s just…01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: Physics. There’s no way around it.01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so you gotta look at all that stuff when you do this work. And you know, while I don’t have a solid answer, I do have a commitment to doing our best to.01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: to getting the right answers for the resort.01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: And for our customer base. And in terms of nostalgia, there’s never going to be a point.01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: where there’s not a nostalgic lift, you know, in the foreseeable future at Smuggler’s Notch.01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: But the the question is that lift appropriate for the terrain? Is it the right one? Is the wrong one?01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: But inevitably, I mean, your stats tell all, you know, we’re we’re gonna be doing something at some point.01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think there’s two good models that I look to of…01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:35.000Stuart Winchester: really atmospheric ski areas that have upgraded without losing that cachet. One is A-Basin, where the oldest lift, I think, is 2007 Zuma, and they have a combination. They have a high-speed quad, a high-speed six-pack, two long fixed-grip quads, and when they replaced the Pella Vicini.01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:52.000Stuart Winchester: double chair, I think in 2020, they just replaced… it was a 1970s lift, they replaced it with a brand new double chair that was made, I think, by Doppelmeyer. Same exact specs, it’s just a new machine. The other example is Alta, which, if you go back to the 90s, had a bunch of double chairs just all over the mountain.01:22:52.000 --> 01:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: have consolidated most of those to one line and replaced them, almost all but Wildcat Double, with high-speed chairs. So, looking at those two models and thinking about it, and people still love those ski areas because they’re the ski areas.01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Looking at those two models, do you start to get a sense of, like, is it really that it’s a 1962 Hall double that people care about, or is it more that you create, as you said, a chair that matches the terrain? Do you get any inspiration from those other skiers as you think about this?01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I mean…01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: I would say, we’ve all been to a place, whether it’s a restaurant or a ski area, I mean, I love to ski, so I’ve skied all over the world, and you go someplace, and you go back to it, and somebody did something to screw it up, and it pisses you off. I mean, that’s really what.01:23:30.000 --> 01:23:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we’ve all seen it. We’ve all experienced it.01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Then we’ve also seen thoughtful design.01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: when we took over the Hermitage Club during COVID and started operating it, there was 27 point-of-sales.01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: on the first floor alone.01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:07.000Jonathan Schaefer: just to handle food and beverage. Right? And so you start to add it up. And it’s like, Wow, you know, if maybe if they just designed the food and beverage system better.01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: you could have gotten through it with a a lot less point of sale, folks, and.01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: design is really critical, it’s scariest. And… you really have to understand what you’re doing when you make a 30, or 40, or 50, or, in Smug’s case, 60-year investment in a ski lift.01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, because…01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: You don’t wanna fly that concrete up that mountain more than you have to. You know, you don’t wanna undo it down the road. So.01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: Again, there’s a lot of factors that go into how to tweak a mountain and what makes sense and what doesn’t.01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: And how not to ruin it. Um…01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: And, and that’s, it’s a big, it’s a big task, you know, with a lot of responsibility that we definitely, you know, we, we’re not just gonna go in there willy-nilly and start throwing stuff around and start moving things. ‘cause that, that is how you screw it up.01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:24:58.000 --> 01:24:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: Oh.01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:15.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think you have a priority, John, between Morse, generally considered the beginner mountain, Sterling, generally considered the intermediate mountain, and Madonna, generally considered the expert mountain, as far as where you think upgrades should be concentrated first, infrastructure-wise? And we can also talk about snowmaking here, which I know you’ve already announced.01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: It sort of matches the, the available equipment to the mountain, I would say. You know, there’s, there’s certain, there’s certain things we, we gotta figure that out. That’s, that’s, that’s what the next six months of my life will be focused on.01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:28.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:33.000Stuart Winchester: So talk about the snowmaking upgrades that you’ve already announced at Smugs, and what you hope to achieve there.01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: So this some going into the sale. We had a pretty good understanding of of some of the broad strokes work that needs to get done, and snowmaking is always a huge.01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: a huge factor for us.01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: And how we approach resorts, you know, it’s literally, you go up the mountain, and you come down the mountain. And ideally, you come down on as many different trails as possible, and with as good of conditions as possible, and that’s the snow aspect.01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:07.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so, we always start there, you know that. Uh, smugglers, each mountain always has different, sort of.01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Assets, you know, it’s like…01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: You buy a house, it’s got a great kitchen, you don’t like the bathroom, right? And then vice versa.01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:23.000Jonathan Schaefer: Smugs… so we laid out what we thought needed to happen at Smugs, then you sort of do the low-hanging…01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: medium hanging, high hanging fruit, you know, to achieve the goals. And where, and we wanted to spend money where you would, the skiers would see the first, every dollar yielded the greatest results.01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so we focused a lot this year on.01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: fixing broken things and and dilapidated equipment, putting in fixed infrastructure on the hill. So the snowmakers themselves don’t have to lug things around the less lugging they do on.01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: big, difficult mountains in the northeast, the more snow they tend to make.01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then really incorporating, uh, the snowmaker’s experience into the upgrades, so that they felt that they were part, you know, of defining what that list was gonna be. And so, it’s Smuggler’s Notch, right? So there’s 3 mountains, so it’s…01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: It’s everything times 3. You know, there’s broken thing. There’s the fixed equipment that needs to be put on the hill. So we attacked each one of the the areas of the the resort, and tried to address bottlenecks or issues that could unlock a lot of.01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: potential out of the system. And it’s sort of the first salvo. You know, you… scary operations, you know, the way you fix mountains, it’s like waves on a beach. You get…01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: You get a capital plan in January, you start to execute, if you’re lucky, by April.01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: The wave falls on the beach and then your next thing you know, it’s November and you’re back into operating and you gotta do it again. And there’s this cycle.01:27:48.000 --> 01:27:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: This is what we could get done this… this year on a short, you know, transaction window, and then love plans for next year’s, too, and…01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those will probably have more meaningful impact.01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:17.000Stuart Winchester: Well, where are you at, John, on… you know, one thing I liked about when Eric Mogensen bought Black Mountain in New Hampshire is the… it’s such a fun mountain, but the top was rarely open. They have a double chair that goes to the summit, but it has a mid-station, and for years and years, sometimes the summit wouldn’t even open, and he made a commitment right away, hey.01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:26.000Stuart Winchester: run the lift to the top as much as possible, and he has, including all the way into May the last two years. How much have you thought about.01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:41.000Stuart Winchester: Getting Madonna open a little earlier in the season and, and consistently making sure that peak is open, uh, as late as possible because that’s sort of, I mean, Sterling’s a lot of fun, but, but Madonna is the alpha peak, right? That’s the, the biggest lift, the biggest vert, the toughest terrain. That’s what people think.01:28:41.000 --> 01:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: when they think of the challenging terrain as smug. So have you thought much about Madonna and its operating schedule?01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:53.000Jonathan Schaefer: The bottlenecks aren’t really Madonna. It’s everything that leads to Madonna.01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:53.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that’s what we went to fix.01:28:55.000 --> 01:29:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: with the snowmaking system. So if you can chew through everything else, like, you gotta get beginner terrain open, you have to get…01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:58.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: something for your your pass holders as fast as possible, and if that fast thing becomes faster.01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: or those bottlenecks disappear, then we’re we’re hitting Madonna.01:29:15.000 --> 01:29:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: earlier. So it it has a cascading effect throughout the whole system.01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:36.000Stuart Winchester: So speaking of pass holders, let’s talk about passes. So since I was just talking about Eric and Black Mountain, let’s talk about Indy Pass. So you were an early adopter of Indy Pass, going back to 2019, put Berkshire East on it, catamount right away. As soon as you bought.01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Burke, or were involved in Burke, it switched over from an allied mountain to full, and you just added Smugs, which is huge for IndyPass holders. You now have Jay and Smugs. I mean, four days of those alone is worth the price of an IndyPass, let alone the other dozens of mountains you have there. So talk about.01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: Correct?01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:06.000Stuart Winchester: your relationship with IndyPass, and ultimately why you recommitted… because they’re one-year contracts, right? So why you recommitted by adding all four of your mountains, including Smugs, which you haven’t had a winter to run yet, onto Indy?01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: Indy’s a really important piece for, you know, independent skiers in the country. And we, I used to have debates with different people pre Indy Pass.01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: And one of the debates was, and I won’t name them, was around.01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: Could there ever be a pass that represented those types of mountains?01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Because, let’s just be… let’s face it, you have the Epic Pass, which has Vail and Whistler, and…01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: when Doug branded the IndyPass, he gave a voice to a whole, you know, quite frankly, the majority of the ski world.01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which was feeling a little left out at the time.01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so it’s done a lot for small ski areas across the country.01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: But it’s certainly done a lot for ours at Berkshire East and Catamount. So we’re, what, 5 or 6 years in at having Indy at those resorts?01:30:58.000 --> 01:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:01.000Jonathan Schaefer: We’ve certainly been.01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: sort of like Indy Pied Pipers along the way. It, it wasn’t necessarily a layup that we were gonna do it at Smuggler’s Notch. You know, it seemed obvious maybe from the outside and we’d have to get there. But our commitment really is, is to the full pass holders and the ticket holders of a resort.01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: First, you know, they’re, they’re sort of our primary constituents and what India Smugs allows us to do is we, we are very experienced with using the capacity controls in any pass at our other mountains. So we, a reservation system at Berkshire East and Catamount.01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: that allows, you know, for only certain number of capacity per day. And we’re pretty experienced on managing, you know, weekly, or monthly, or daily, even, on how we want to handle that.01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: So we felt comfortable with not overwhelming the mountain. And what happens is, I think one of my critiques of the ski business is it’s like…01:31:56.000 --> 01:32:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, with the multi passes, you have this slosh of people, you know, you fill a bucket full of water. It’s like you got a Home Depot bucket and you’re walking down the street with a bucket and it inevitably spills out and gets you wet.01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: And to me, that slosh is what happens when you have.01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: unlimited access everywhere. Right? So if Berkshire East, for example.01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: was…01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: was in a huge pass product, and we happened to get 3 feet of snow, which happens occasionally.01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: and 50,000 people show up at Berkshire East, that slosh would break the town, it would break the mountain, it would break everything, right?01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:32:37.000 --> 01:32:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we don’t wanna have that. We actually do care about the experience at these mountains. That being said, it’s important to fill up the excess capacity so we can do the snowmaking upgrades and we can do the resort upgrades that at Smuggler’s Notch or the any of the other mountains that you will see the snowmaking.01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: you will see the improvements. And so we have to optimize.01:32:57.000 --> 01:33:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, around the midweek and the non busiest times.01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then, once once that stuff starts to happen, the snowmaking improvements.01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: More people start to show up in off-peak times. You feel that energy?01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then you got something to work with. And so.01:33:15.000 --> 01:33:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think that’s where we’re headed with that relationship, and, you know…01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh…01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: it’s also why we didn’t do the Four Mountain Pass right out of the gate. You know, I think a lot of people wondered, well, will there just be a Bearden Pass? And Bearden, you know, our core mantra is distinctly local. Like, we love.01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: these mountains. We love the people that make them up and the history and the legacy of those resorts.01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: And we care about, you know, doing our best to be caretakers, you know, so that the mountain we buy is still recognizable by the people.01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: who utilize it, you know, 10 or 15 years from now when they come back to it.01:33:55.000 --> 01:33:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so not overwhelming.01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: not having overwhelming numbers is a it’s a real. I mean, it’s probably the thing I’ve thought about most this year.01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you have a couple different levels of competition here. You have the other big multi-mountain passes, you have your four mountains and your different pass products, and you’re kind of competing with yourself a little by being part of India. Now we’re seeing.01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:36.000Stuart Winchester: Other competing passes, the Snow Pass, run by Snow Operating, start to follow that model of two days at each mountain, and they got some really nice ones out of the gate, Whiteface and Gore. Do you think that Indy Pass will remain important long.01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:52.000Stuart Winchester: term to you as you… as you build up, you know, you have four mountains to work with, that’s a pretty attractive little portfolio, especially the way they run north-south, with Catamount being two hours from New York City, and Smuggs being this great destination, and everything in between, and all easy to get to off the freeway. So… so what…01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: long… as you think about passes long-term, do you think you’ll stay on a multi-mountain pass? Do you think.01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, uh…01:34:59.000 --> 01:35:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: We’re we’re into hypothetical worlds. We’re we’re into indie. We like indie. So.01:35:01.000 --> 01:35:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:35:03.000 --> 01:35:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: Why don’t you tell me where you think the market’s going and we’ll.01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yes, sir.01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:27.000Stuart Winchester: I’m liking the competition. I’m liking that there’s a lot of different options for consumers right now. I think the Indy Pass is, it’s the largest pass coalition ever assembled in the history of the world that I’m aware of. And I just think for consumers, particularly in New England to have.01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:51.000Stuart Winchester: Those mountains, Smuggs, Jay, Waterville. And Berkshire East is such a great mountain, too, and it’s almost always a top 10 on Indy Redemptions, which surprised me. So, I love where you’re going. I also love the Bash Badge. Can you talk about the Bash Badge at Smuggs? Because you actually have the Bash Badge Plus, which maybe they had before, I don’t know if that’s new. And if that concept could roll out across your other mountains, and I know you’re not…01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Mr. Price Guy, so I can throw the prices up here. Um, the…01:35:58.000 --> 01:36:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, the bash pads fits between a day ticket and a full pass, you know, just sort of.01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Functionally and emotionally. And it’s an important piece of the product, and we’ve… we have evaluated it across the board. There was a… it’s… it was funny, you know, it’s funny not funny. We hadn’t communicated it yet, but um…01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:16.000 --> 01:36:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: A lot, there was so much concern out of the sort of the smug social media.01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:22.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: around their prob… quote-unquote, they are probably going to get rid of the bash badge. I’m they. They were never going to get rid of the bash badge. It’s an important part of the puzzle, and uh…01:36:26.000 --> 01:36:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:36:29.000 --> 01:36:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:36:33.000 --> 01:36:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, it speaks to…01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know what you’re saying about the industry.01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: Indy’s an important funnel.01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: for visitation for us. You know, Bash Badge is an important funnel. People get so… you get so locked into your routine, right? Even your social media routine, or your…01:36:48.000 --> 01:36:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: web presence routine. So you’re only exposed to what you’re exposed to. And.01:36:57.000 --> 01:37:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: the reality is, it’s tough business, you know. The winters are tough. There’s a the ex. The equipment’s extremely expensive, and we have 13 weeks to really get after it each year. Yeah, we need to be as in front of as many people as possible, so they can come up and.01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: rent from our homeowners and buy food in the kitchens and.01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: Ski awesome terrain. So that’s…01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:37.000Stuart Winchester: Let me break down this product real quick because I think it’s so good. So the Bash Badge, you pay $159 upfront and then you get $30 lift tickets or $20 half-day lift tickets for the entire season whenever you show up. The Bash Badge, Bash Badge.01:37:37.000 --> 01:37:44.000Stuart Winchester: Plus is $249, has the same deal, but it’s sort of a pseudo-season pass, because you get…01:37:44.000 --> 01:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: direct-to-lift, you know, unlimited days from opening day, which is usually around Thanksgiving, through December 18th, and then from March 22nd through the end of the season, which at Smuggs is somewhere between the first and third weekend in April, usually. I don’t know if you want to push that at all. But that is an awesome product. I mean, is this something that you want to roll out across the portfolio?01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: We’re evaluating it. Yeah. All the mountains are different, right? So that’s…01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: which may work, something that may work great, and I’m not, this is more generic.01:38:15.000 --> 01:38:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: at Burke may not work at Catamount. You just pulled up Catamount there, right? That’s a different user base.01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: Different demand profile. Right? So.01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: These mountains are going to run.01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: relatively independently, but also, we want our guests to know what to expect when they go to a Bear Dam Mountain, which is that independence, the quality, the focus on the fundamentals, you know, good snow, um…01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:38:40.000 --> 01:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: and efficient operations. I mean, it’s… the weather’s ever-changing, so you can’t always promise it, but…01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, you’ll certainly get our best effort in any given time.01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:55.000Stuart Winchester: How would you know, John, like, what would be your sign?01:38:55.000 --> 01:38:58.000Stuart Winchester: that you were messing up SMUGS, that you were going in the wrong direction.01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, I’m sure I’d hear about it.01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:10.000Stuart Winchester: As a… as a skier, what do you not want smugs to be? Because you’re a skier, I mean, you… you know, you’ve skied every day of your life that…01:39:10.000 --> 01:39:13.000Stuart Winchester: you know, has been… there’s been snow on the ground, I believe.01:39:13.000 --> 01:39:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:39:14.000 --> 01:39:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: I, um…01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: For me, it’s that overwhelming presence of just, you know, you’re on a trail and.01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: You feel like you’re gonna get.01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: just overrun, and you’re just… you want to go home. I mean, I’ve had ski days where.01:39:30.000 --> 01:39:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, for example.01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:38.000Jonathan Schaefer: My wife and I did a trip to a.01:39:38.000 --> 01:39:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: a larger, you know.01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: Northern Mountain a couple years ago, and I was invited to an event, and I couldn’t get the person who, you know, I get comp tickets, it’s just one of the perks, who was there to comp the ticket, and…01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:39:52.000 --> 01:40:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: So it’s like, oh, I’ll go through the ticket line and really experience a day trip, you know, as the general consumer of one of these resorts, you know, which, you know, I’m generally at smaller mountains doing our thing.01:40:03.000 --> 01:40:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: And…01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think almost 500 bucks of ticket fees later.01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:11.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, we’re in the middle of an overrun.01:40:15.000 --> 01:40:16.000Jonathan Schaefer: Trail.01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: My wife, who’s an advanced intermediate, was just like, can we go home to Berkshire East?01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, so.01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: if I feel like I want to go home right now, as much feels like home to me. I had a lot of great skiing there this winter. I brought my daughters up, and.01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:28.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:37.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there’s awesome terrain. We’re looking at the map here.01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: it feels like a western mountain. I mean, it it’s big enough that the whoever cut the trails, there’s there’s grade reversals to uphills to big rolls to.01:40:39.000 --> 01:40:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, snow-covered trees, and I know it’s not always like that, but we just had the best.01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: Few weeks of skiing this year.01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:40:54.000 --> 01:40:59.000Jonathan Schaefer: And you can really let it rip. Woods are awesome.01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Great family experience. That’s what home feels like. And.01:41:04.000 --> 01:41:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I’m I associate with myself, you know, in in general, with people that appreciate that. And.01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:41:11.000 --> 01:41:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: That’s we’re here to curate this and to grow it, but not ruin it.01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that’s very subjective, right? So we have to run good businesses, and we’re never gonna make everybody happy. But I think in the effort we give.01:41:27.000 --> 01:41:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: People will appreciate it.01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:31.000Stuart Winchester: The more…01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: skiing changes in New England, the more…01:41:35.000 --> 01:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: people love what Smuggs is, and I’m looking at the trail map here for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, and what you see back here is Stowe. Now, I love Stowe. I think it’s the best mountain.01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, me too.01:41:46.000 --> 01:42:04.000Stuart Winchester: in New England. I just love the fall lines, I love the skiing. Vail purchased it, of course, in 2017. Bill Strissel, the former owner, had proposed a gondola from Sterling across, which is much flatter than this, across to Stowe.01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:14.000Stuart Winchester: Is that idea dead? Is that still something you would consider? You can still walk between Stowe and Smugs, of course, but is a potential lift something you’re considering?01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Uh, you know, I think we’re considering getting back to where we were, which is… I think it would be awesome to skin up Sterling, but they don’t allow it, and um…01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: come over to smugs and go back and forth.01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: we’re not in the market for paying for that lift, and I read the reviews online, just as well as everybody else, on what locals thought about it, so… that’s not the…01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:32.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, I want to develop a great great relationship with those guys and the Gm. There.01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: Started at Mount Snow, and we have a ton of mutual friends. And he’s very, very, very well respected, you know, within the Vail organization.01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so is awesome.01:42:54.000 --> 01:42:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: But, um…01:42:56.000 --> 01:43:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, I think that I have trail run it all summer and fall, and it’s a it’s a great trail. I was there, and I think it was 1997. Somebody dumped a snow cat into the pond trying to drive across it. I saw the snow cat as a 17 year old or 18 year old.01:42:57.000 --> 01:43:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Mike’s a good dude.01:43:01.000 --> 01:43:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, man.01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, um…01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah.01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.000Stuart Winchester: Is it still there?01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: No, some other… I think they got out with a scooter.01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:21.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I mean, Mike’s a great guy, and I skied with Mike in April, and folks don’t understand this, and I beat it to death, but unless you’re from the region, and I didn’t understand it until I moved out here, Northern Vermont is so good. I mean, 322 inches of snow, that’s the second snowiest.01:43:39.000 --> 01:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: In the east that Smuggs gets, of course, JP gets a little more, and maybe they get the same. I don’t know, people measure things different, but last year I was supposed to take my family to Tahoe in April. I canceled it, went to Stowe and Killington instead, and we got a couple of powder days of Stowe in April. It is really, really good skiing up there, and there’s tree skiing more often than not. So, I mean, you’ve got such a prize up there, and if people have not been up there.01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:08.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, go now so you can watch the evolution. Uh, John, I wanna…01:44:06.000 --> 01:44:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: I’m gonna try to text you a picture here, Stuart. I’ve got me pounding the Lincoln Gap and I think 2003.01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: But I I grew up skiing up there.01:44:18.000 --> 01:44:22.000Jonathan Schaefer: And the scheme is awesome.01:44:22.000 --> 01:44:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: The, um…01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: There’s there’s nothing like it. And it’s it’s it’s not. You know it. It is Northern Vermont, right? It’s not.01:44:31.000 --> 01:44:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Banff.01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it’s okay. There’s great communities. There’s great.01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:48.000Jonathan Schaefer: There’s great people. There’s a huge legacy of people that love these mountains and care for them. And utilize them.01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: So.01:44:50.000 --> 01:44:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: We’re just lucky to be the next man up here, and we’re fired up to do a good job about it.01:44:55.000 --> 01:45:19.000Stuart Winchester: I’m fired up that you bought it. There was a lot of chatter that Vail may buy it and combine it with Stowe. Again, love Stowe, but I do think that the Northeast in any ski region benefits from having strong independent operators. I’m pulling up Burke’s old trail maps for those following along here. So Burke, the trail network’s been similar for years and years, but there used to be some more lifts. So here we’re going all the way back.01:45:19.000 --> 01:45:27.000Stuart Winchester: 1983, when Burke was sponsored by Camel. Can you imagine? Camel cigarettes, guys.01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: One of our ski coaches was a, um…01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: A Marlboro man.01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so you see different lifts here. So you see the Summit lift, which was replaced. Now this is a high-speed quad. And there was another lift over here. So looking at Burke’s modern trail map here, John, I believe there’s some room for expansion out here. I believe you could probably infill some lifts. So what are your thoughts on Burke now that you’ve had a year running that guy?01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think Burke’s an awesome mountain.01:45:55.000 --> 01:46:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, if we’re talking about the trail map, we’ve got the green section down here in Sherbourne, which is one of the best beginner mountains.01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that was a little bit of a.01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Surprise for me, because I spent most of my time at Burke on Warren’s way.01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:10.000 --> 01:46:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: facing, and then…01:46:12.000 --> 01:46:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: Big Dipper. I think we raised the first Eastern Cup there the day after the Pats won their first Super Bowl.01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which was awesome. Middlebury showed up with no time to inspect, because it was a late night, but it was…01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:28.000Jonathan Schaefer: Lots of energy, um…01:46:28.000 --> 01:46:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: And then the Upper Mountain, and you can kind of see, if you go back up to the Upper Mountain, just how steep… you see where all the black diamonds are in the middle, in the double blacks? That’s just a feature of the resort, so…01:46:32.000 --> 01:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Mm-hmm.01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: It’s hard to get…01:46:41.000 --> 01:46:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, there’s a total lack of green trails from the summit, and that’s a priority for us, is increasing that blue access over the next couple of years.01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:55.000Jonathan Schaefer: But also, you know, we’ve done a ton of snowmaking that work there. I think we…01:46:56.000 --> 01:47:02.000Jonathan Schaefer: We knocked out… we were able to cut 500 hours of snowmaking time.01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: Year over year.01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:05.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: and open more terrain, far more terrain than the year prior. And so.01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:09.000Stuart Winchester: Amazing.01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: We, uh…01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are doing a lot more work this year. And so last year, it’s like the wave on the beach analogy. We were able to throw a big wave up on the beach and we got a ton of stuff done. But this year, it’s a lot of the interconnections and sort of like finishing off the work. I’d say we got 80% of the way home last year.01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:23.000 --> 01:47:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:30.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: And this year, a few more guns, filling in some holes, moving water around more effectively.01:47:37.000 --> 01:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: I think people are going to notice maybe even as big a difference as the year prior. Midburg Lodge is getting some updates.01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah, it…01:47:48.000 --> 01:48:15.000Stuart Winchester: How did that translate business-wise, John? You know, Burke had sort of been, it had been in receivership for nine years when you purchased it, and it was part of the whole Jay Peak scandal, and Jay Peak got purchased in 2022 by Pacific Group Resorts, but Burke was still orphaned, and not that there weren’t capable folks running it, but the first thing you did was, I think, triple snowmaking capacity. So how did that translate business, skier visits-wise? What can you tell us about last year at Burke and the kind of momentum you were able to establish there?01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:56.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: So I do believe that energy at a resort is a very palpable thing. You can either feel it, or you can’t. You know, you’ve all been places, and it’s like, oh, what happened to the restaurant? And it’s like, oh, the chef left, and.01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: You just know it’s over yet.01:48:31.000 --> 01:48:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know the receivership was. It was sort of like slack tide for that mountain for almost a decade, you know, is not really coming or going, and I think our us stepping up and the grand family’s commitment to the resort, which is runs really deep.01:48:48.000 --> 01:48:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: was able to bring some of that, inject that energy. And then the next step.01:48:54.000 --> 01:49:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: is, and I’ve been doing the Ted Lasso analogies with you for years, but it’s like getting people, not only the resort staff, but the guests to believe.01:49:04.000 --> 01:49:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, that it is a great mountain. There’s phenomenal glades. You know, I… I was stuck on Warren’s Way half my life whenever I’d be there, but, you know, so it was a revelation what the glades were like. Um…01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: in the… in the acquisition period, and then skiing them last year. It’s a… it’s a great mountain. I don’t think it’s ever really had its chance. I think we’re the seventh or eighth ownership group. That thing is like a…01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:41.000Jonathan Schaefer: a ship without a rock, without a lighthouse that ships keep running into, and we’re gonna try to avoid being the next ship that breaks apart on those rocks right there. But I think there’s a really thoughtful way to do it.01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:54.000Jonathan Schaefer: quite frankly, it’s shocking how close it is to people. You know, I don’t think people realize that it’s really not that much further from Boston than a Mount Snow or a Killington. Obviously, it doesn’t have the scale of those resorts. Um…01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: But it does have that sense of community.01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: it’s a great mountain, it’s a beautiful hotel, and… and the town itself is full of wonderful restaurants, largely supported by Kingdom Trails and skiers, you know, so it’s a very adventurous… we did a kickoff party there, and…01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: I mean, there’s…01:50:11.000 --> 01:50:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: Eight Olympians.01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:18.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, at the kickoff party that live in and around that town.01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:19.000Stuart Winchester: Incredible.01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:31.000Jonathan Schaefer: And it attracts a really diverse set of outdoor adventurers, and it’s a… it’s a throwback community. And uh… I think as our guests start to discover it, you know, in the wintertime, I think a lot of people discovered it for KT.01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:33.000Jonathan Schaefer: Which we’re also doing a lot of work.01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:40.000Jonathan Schaefer: With to integrate with Kingdom trails, and we’re the largest single owner of Kingdom trails, and so it’s.01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:44.000Jonathan Schaefer: you know, people start to feel that energy. And.01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: Again, we’re here to work it and to build it and, you know, do our best to caretake it.01:50:50.000 --> 01:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it looks far north, John, but it’s right off I-91, and I agree, there’s some of the best glades in New England. Let’s talk quickly about Berkshire East, where you’ve teased an expansion for several years, I believe, right over in this area.01:51:02.000 --> 01:51:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: We’re going on a decade, I think.01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Is it right over here? Am I pointing to the right place? Farlookers right on the trail map?01:51:05.000 --> 01:51:06.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:13.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um, it goes from the wind turbine.01:51:12.000 --> 01:51:14.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: Where the thunder writing is, somewhere right in there.01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:16.000 --> 01:51:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Yeah.01:51:17.000 --> 01:51:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: in between Mohawk and Thunder down over towards those fields at the lower left. I would say it’s not well represented on on this map. But.01:51:25.000 --> 01:51:32.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so there’s more terrain. Is it basically in here, or is it over on this side?01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:35.000Jonathan Schaefer: It’s thunder is sort of like the off ramp for it. So it’s the return.01:51:34.000 --> 01:51:38.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, so you would go into Thunder off the back of the mountain?01:51:37.000 --> 01:51:42.000Jonathan Schaefer: You would go off of… you see where Rogers World is? The lift would go through Rogers World.01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:41.000Stuart Winchester: Here.01:51:41.000 --> 01:51:42.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:51:44.000 --> 01:51:49.000Jonathan Schaefer: Through to the wind turbine, and there’d be 3 or 4 trails back there, and…01:51:46.000 --> 01:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:52.000Jonathan Schaefer: It hasn’t quite launched yet.01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:51.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.01:51:52.000 --> 01:52:04.000Jonathan Schaefer: But again, you know, it’s easy to cut this stuff, it’s easy to build it, it’s harder to actually operate it and take care of it, so we keep optimizing our resort, you know, and the snowmaking there, and then…01:52:04.000 --> 01:52:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: Hopefully, we’ll get to a point here where that’s doable again. So.01:52:08.000 --> 01:52:23.000Stuart Winchester: And you took out a triple chair that was based this summer right here. That was a used lift from Ski Rio New Mexico. I think the plan was to put it over here. I don’t know, it looks like you could probably serve it with the existing lifts, but any thoughts on lifts or not as part of the expansion?01:52:13.000 --> 01:52:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: It would require a lift, yeah.01:52:25.000 --> 01:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: So.01:52:27.000 --> 01:52:45.000Stuart Winchester: But not… it doesn’t sound like, uh, like you can put a timeline on it, and last time you were on, you also talked about a potential expansion at Catamount. Again, I’m looking at the trail map. Uh, if you look at the far right side of the trail map, I believe that’s where the potential expansion was. Any thoughts on… on that, or are you pretty happy with Catamount as it is?01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: No.01:52:45.000 --> 01:52:47.000Jonathan Schaefer: We are, uh…01:52:48.000 --> 01:53:03.000Jonathan Schaefer: I would say that we’re never complacent, right? So the idea of happy is very temporal and focused on what’s going on. I think at all these mountains, we’re focused on snowmaking. Folks will see some snowmaking upgrades at all the resorts.01:52:54.000 --> 01:52:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:06.000Jonathan Schaefer: So in terms of lift layouts, you know it’s.01:53:06.000 --> 01:53:15.000Jonathan Schaefer: Those are private landowners that you happen to point out up there, so they may or may not be the right, you know, people to point your mouse at.01:53:10.000 --> 01:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:15.000Stuart Winchester: Right.01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:24.000Jonathan Schaefer: it’s all on the table, right? And it’s just a matter. Now my job is to really, you know, look at four resorts and what their needs are.01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:18.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:53:24.000 --> 01:53:27.000Jonathan Schaefer: and advance the ones that make the most sense.01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: from resort to resort to resort, and categorize those. And a lot of what we’ve been doing this year, I mean, this conversation has been very appropriately anchored in, um, sort of asset upgrades.01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:45.000Jonathan Schaefer: But I’m trying to build an organization that can really thoughtfully run this.01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:50.000Jonathan Schaefer: these resorts and do a good job with it and build the right team.01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:57.000Jonathan Schaefer: And so a lot of the governance and organizational work that we’ve done this year will really help support those.01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: going forward into future years. So.01:53:58.000 --> 01:54:16.000Stuart Winchester: So talk a little about that. Actually leave us with that today, John, because I just find the Schaefer family story so compelling. You know, Roy drove his station wagon out from Michigan full of kids and just, you know, bought this junky mountain and fixed it up, you know, just out there buying scrap from all over the country.01:54:09.000 --> 01:54:10.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay.01:54:16.000 --> 01:54:23.000Stuart Winchester: And, uh, then handed it off to you and your brother, who modernized it. And, and you’ve, you’ve built, uh…01:54:23.000 --> 01:54:30.000Stuart Winchester: you know, you’ve built now this four-mountain portfolio, so a couple elements to that is, number one, if I have this right.01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:43.000Stuart Winchester: you actually sold Catamount Berkshires to Bearden, so you’re no longer the owner, you’re an employee, probably for the first time, really, in your life, you know, and not part of a… necessarily a family-owned thing.01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: Mm-hmm.01:54:41.000 --> 01:54:44.000Jonathan Schaefer: Outside is an ice cream.01:54:43.000 --> 01:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so what’s that transition been like, I guess?01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: emotionally, and how do you handle that professionally? Like, going from, you know, your dad out there with a hammer, you know.01:54:56.000 --> 01:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: nailing up some snow gun to, uh, I know that’s not how you put up a snow gun, but, um, but to, you know, running a professional organization that oversees four mountains in three states.01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yep.01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:26.000Jonathan Schaefer: Evolve or die, right? So I couldn’t be more fired up about it. There’s Ken Graham and I had the opportunity to build five years of trust. We worked on Burke for four or five years. And that could be, you know, five calls a week or one call every five months. You know, it’s hard to say, but we really stuck it out together.01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:22.000 --> 01:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: and had a good understanding of of who we were as people and as families. You know their their dad’s a Michigan family, too. They are a Michigan family. The grandfather was a ecologist working for the University of Michigan. So it’s a lot of shared family history here. Ski racing.01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: And that’s important when you do this stuff because these, you’re in it for the long haul. You know, you jump into rapids with somebody and you want to know what they’re about. And so we had that opportunity and it wasn’t as spontaneous as it may have seen on the outside.01:55:58.000 --> 01:56:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:00.000Jonathan Schaefer: So…01:56:00.000 --> 01:56:05.000Jonathan Schaefer: There’s there’s also pieces of the organization that I always wanted to bring.01:56:05.000 --> 01:56:11.000Jonathan Schaefer: You know, I wrote my Berkshire operator manual in 2015, and it was clunky, and…01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:12.000Jonathan Schaefer: Um…01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: And and probably just.01:56:15.000 --> 01:56:17.000Jonathan Schaefer: half finished, right?01:56:17.000 --> 01:56:29.000Jonathan Schaefer: But a lot of the elements that we’re bringing to the table around role clarity, how to do jobs, you know, those threads started there. And I always wanted to build something bigger.01:56:29.000 --> 01:56:32.000Jonathan Schaefer: than what we had. And that’s why I always sort of like, you know, I’ve been.01:56:32.000 --> 01:56:43.000Jonathan Schaefer: doing these crazy side gigs for years, right? Like the Hermitage Club, or rebuilding Bosque, or Big Red Cats, or working in Arkansas building bike parks. It’s never been…01:56:43.000 --> 01:56:46.000Jonathan Schaefer: It’s always been like, okay. Well.01:56:46.000 --> 01:56:51.000Jonathan Schaefer: I can’t spin my wheels endlessly at Berkshire East or Catamount.01:56:52.000 --> 01:56:58.000Jonathan Schaefer: Let the people responsible do their jobs and go do something else for a little while.01:56:58.000 --> 01:57:08.000Jonathan Schaefer: try to keep building. So that’s now I feel like we’ve married our family’s legacy and the information we’ve learned.01:57:08.000 --> 01:57:14.000Jonathan Schaefer: to a platform and another family that that will help us, you know, fulfill this vision.01:57:15.000 --> 01:57:32.000Stuart Winchester: Doing all that, John, and you still made time for the podcast, you know, one of the… one of my hopes out of the shorter form is we can have you on a little more often as you announce new things, so… listen, I cannot thank you enough for making the time, especially with the wildlife emergency, with all you’ve got going on in winter coming up, so… so thanks so much, John, I really appreciate it.01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:20.000Jonathan Schaefer: I love it.01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:25.000Jonathan Schaefer: Sure.01:57:28.000 --> 01:57:30.000Jonathan Schaefer: Yeah.01:57:31.000 --> 01:57:34.000Jonathan Schaefer: Well, you’re lucky you’re not with me, because otherwise you’d stink.01:57:34.000 --> 01:57:43.000Stuart Winchester: Well, I don’t have a sense of smell, that’s one of my secret weapons. Yeah, yeah, so, uh, anyway, alright, thanks a lot, John, I’ll talk to you soon.01:57:35.000 --> 01:57:36.000Jonathan Schaefer: Hehe.01:57:37.000 --> 01:57:39.000Jonathan Schaefer: Okay. Oh, nice. Great.01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:45.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care. Bye. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

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The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is made in the USA. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CaberfaeOwned by: The Meyer FamilyYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 2 days, blackouts* Freedom Pass: 3 days, no blackouts Base elevation: 1,076 feetSummit elevation: 1,561 feetVertical drop: 485 feetSkiable Acres: 200Average annual snowfall: 120 inchesLift count: 5 (1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog’s inventory of Caberfae’s lift fleet)The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO; also since Tim and Pete were on one screen, the transcript does not differentiate between them).Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:40.000Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan’s Lower Penins.00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I’m always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000Pete Meyer: Good. We’re doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we’re feeling.00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim’s also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that’s…00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there’s tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000Pete Meyer: It.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I’m gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it’s the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn’t built yet. Now that’s in place and we’ll talk about that in a minute and how that’s gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we’re getting and why you’re building it.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000Pete Meyer: I’m going to start with why, because it’s kind of an interesting story, you know.00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.000Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000Pete Meyer: Now we’re gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:55.000Pete Meyer: we’re going to give them a longer run, and the new part we’re giving them is actually the easier half. They’re already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it’s easier, it’s wider, it should be fine.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000Pete Meyer: And that’s what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Pete Meyer: is…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000Pete Meyer: They didn’t really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I’m only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you’re coming into the top, and you… you know, you’re above…00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000Pete Meyer: They’d get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000Pete Meyer: say, there’s no way I’m gonna go down, you know, I’m not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I’m saying, um…00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don’t take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Pete Meyer: And so.00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we’re just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Pete Meyer: And…00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He’s like, you don’t understand. I can’t get them ready for East Peak on this.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it’s like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn’t been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that’s the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Pete Meyer: why it’s a two-year construction, because there’s nothing over there. No services. Um, so we’ve had… we had to…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You’re getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000Pete Meyer: uh, that’s just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it’s gonna show this, you know, it’s gonna take the new skier, um.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that’s similar to what we have throughout the area.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it’s going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it’s all built out, we should have 4 or 5.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren’t just…00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn’t have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it’s just a really neat development. So we think that.00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Pete Meyer: You know, even though it’s not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it’s going to be really popular.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000Stuart Winchester: I’ve always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I’ve always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won’t die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: here I’m looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you’re putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that’s the plan. I mean…00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000Stuart Winchester: So you’re affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don’t know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don’t have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that’s a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn’t have…00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad’s done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they’ve already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that’s why we decided on… on…00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: That’s fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it’s a riblet, which…00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one’s a SeaTac. So, I don’t know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I’ve seen a, there’s a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000Stuart Winchester: to show Peter’s excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I’m sure you’ve seen them. So, there’s a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: they don’t seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that’s the artery. I mean, you know, more people.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it’s the middle. And so it’s you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it’s really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn’t have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don’t know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we don’t run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it’s a redundant lift, and we don’t need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it’s not running some of the time.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it’s, as there’s kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what’s the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don’t know if that’s still a possibility. I don’t know if they’re still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what’s the thought on.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you’ve skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that’s why we call it backcountry, because it’s a…00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000Pete Meyer: Because it’s a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we’re not doing the industry any favors. You know, it’s just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000Pete Meyer: chair, and then we’ll have all green runs that’ll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it’ll be a really nice.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it’s one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn’t always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it’s funny, I…00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I’m not sure. I know where you’re going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we’re not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don’t know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren’t going to lift serve it.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000Stuart Winchester: Got it.00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you’ll let me.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let’s do it.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000Pete Meyer: We’re talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you’re looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, so if you’re, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who’s never skied before.00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000Pete Meyer: Rental.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it’s easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000Pete Meyer: And you’re 30, you know, you’re 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you’re right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it’s really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I’m sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you’re right there, and you have this real easy area.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you’re ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we’re in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it’s going to work out extremely well.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you’re a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Pete Meyer: Yeah.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we’ve talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn’t have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here’s the road looping around, here’s the parking lot.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000Stuart Winchester: And then here’s all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet’s right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there’s a.00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there’s two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It’s a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it’s going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you’ll see that word practice area.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000Stuart Winchester: That’s cool.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000Pete Meyer: It’s a great name for a learn to ski area.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here’s another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you’re taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000Pete Meyer: Oh, that’s more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we’re actually off to the left. It’s all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it’ll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It’s gonna be really, it’s gonna be really nice.00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don’t know if that’s on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you’re looking at, we do own it.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000Pete Meyer: I think that we don’t have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don’t want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that’s, uh, my…00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that’s really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn’t as good. So…00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: Or did they?00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let’s talk passes now, and I’m.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I’m just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there’s no access, and there’s also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000Pete Meyer: So we.00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000Pete Meyer: There’s a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we’ve been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000Pete Meyer: We’re going to talk about — I’ll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it’s important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I’m like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he’s like in his raspy voice.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it’s like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: I’m sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000Pete Meyer: You know what? That’s this.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000Pete Meyer: It wasn’t, it was December 5th, 2019.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I’ll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don’t know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don’t even know if you had it going then.00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow, that’s cool.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn’t in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don’t know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you’re like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I’m like, this pass is awesome, right? It’s great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we’re in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn’t know it was you until I was digging through the data. I’m like, oh, that’s.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’s cool.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000Pete Meyer: That’s that’s so. So anyways, anyways, we’ll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I’m not sure about.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000Stuart Winchester: Love that.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn’t going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we’ll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We’re like, well, let’s let’s try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don’t even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we’re happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can’t fault him.00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it’s just, he, he’s, he’s done a wonderful job with it. You know, he’s obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000Pete Meyer: But he’s blown it up. He just had a different mission.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that’s 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It’s great for them, they get a lot of.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we’re seeing, and we’re watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there’s not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that’s ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Pete Meyer: And.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000Pete Meyer: doesn’t move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn’t, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn’t have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric’s a stand-up guy. He’ll let anybody who…00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they’ll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that’s nice of him to do. Also, for those.00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He’ll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it’s a couple of really good things that he’s doing there, so we’re thankful, thankful for that. But, um.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that’s reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you’ve got time.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let’s linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there’s another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don’t want to overstate it. What’s the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: The fact that you’re no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we’ve been getting…00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we’ve been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let’s just… let’s just be… let’s just be independent and not on any… any, uh…00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there’s a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They’re not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right. That’s right.00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: They’re at, like, 9,000 feet.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000Pete Meyer: Then we, um…00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren’t in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000Pete Meyer: We want to do what’s best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we’ve been hit as much as the negativity that you’ve seen online for leaving any pass, we’ve been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: It’s.00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000Pete Meyer: I’m gonna use it. I’m gonna take a trip. And then we’ve known we’ve gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it’s you’re by that 3rd day you’re waking up and you’re like you can’t even move your legs for you know we’re so so we think it’s a nice.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don’t have to get in a plane. So it’s.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody’s going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn’t even the, like Pete said, we’re, we do like our independence and, and.00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we’re going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it’s it’s.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000Pete Meyer: It’s a it’s a great benefit for our core customers.00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that’s good for skiers, it’s good for.00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we’ll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that’s what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that’s an awesome, awesome deal.00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it’s been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you’re really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000Pete Meyer: No, you’re exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We’re trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That’s the day everybody wants to ski. So if you’re going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that’s one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it’s risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there’s, there’s a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek’s topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: This one’s a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I’m friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn’t know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he’s tough.01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000Pete Meyer: And.01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don’t… I don’t know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s great. I haven’t talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you’re doing great. Pete.01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There’s so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let’s do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven’t been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I’ll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn’t really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there’s some lift ticket deals going on.01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: I’ll tell you about the deals first, and then I’ll, I’ll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we’re gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I’d sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They’re play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They’re doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don’t know if that’s a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don’t think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we’re recording this on September 17th.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: But if you’re listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It’s not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I’m pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it’s funny ‘cause they didn’t even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen’s 80th anniversary.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn’t announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it’s small, but it’s still, it’s, it’s a place you can go. It’s high. There’s no snow making. It’s all natural snow.01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you’re on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they’re $74 to $94. It’s a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it’s $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they’ll have open? Probably not a lot.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: I think you’re seeing some smart reactions from some of the…01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there’s still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one’s surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it’s clear that their direct competitors are doing so. So let’s look at… I want to go…01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a minute, and I want to give you some of these.01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:41.000Stuart Winchester: of these top lift ticket prices for the year. And, and I’ll tell you why I care about top lift ticket prices. And, and I know some of you say, well, it doesn’t matter.01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:46.000Stuart Winchester: I think it does matter, and I’ll tell you why.01:09:46.000 --> 01:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: Aspen’s peak lift ticket this year for any of the Four Mountains, or all of the Four Mountains, however you want to look at it, is $309. They used to keep pretty on par with Vail. Not anymore. Vail will hit $374.01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: Beaver Creek tops in the nation, probably the world $392 in some parts of the world that will get you on a helicopter. Like no joke. I hired a guide in Europe and this was several years ago, but we took one heli run and I think the day was, I don’t know, €250.01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then that also got us onto the resort for a guide for the rest of the day. So, so it, you know, 392, that’s, that’s something else. Uh, Steamboat will be 344. That’s an Alterra-owned mountain. Another Alterra flagship, Deer Valley, is 349. Vail flagship, Park City, is set to be 369. Again, these are peak day walk-up rates.01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: So we’re seeing these continue to rise around Colorado. I don’t think that that will change. I wish it would, but I don’t think it will. They’re busy enough at those times. We’re actually seeing a little softening in Tahoe.01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: And Vale didn’t, as far as I know, really promote this hard, but Heavenly, their top lift ticket last year was 3 0 5. They’ve knocked that to 2 84 and a big drop at North Star 3 29 was their top lift ticket rate last year. And that’s down.01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:21.000Stuart Winchester: So I think possibly we found the top of the market in Tahoe. In New England, Mount Snow, that’s Vail, $206. Killington, Independent, $225. Stratton, that’s Altera, $229. Okemo, $231.01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: And Stowe, Vail’s flagship in New England, $272. So, you’re probably saying, Stu, why do you care? We know you don’t pay these prices. No one listening to this podcast pays those prices.01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:49.000Stuart Winchester: But I don’t… and… and… trust me, the ski companies are frustrated that I talk about these prices. Why are you talking about a $392 lift ticket? There’s so many ways to get on Beaver Creek for cheaper. Well, because it’s a $392 lift ticket. And some people…01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: People don’t know that, and if they haven’t skied in.01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:55.000Stuart Winchester: A decade?01:11:55.000 --> 01:12:09.000Stuart Winchester: 15 years, and maybe their brother-in-law gets a place out in Vail, and suddenly they go up, and they say, okay, we’ll just get lift tickets when we get there, because that’s what they’ve done before.01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:18.000Stuart Winchester: And maybe they like skiing, but maybe they stepped away from it because they had kids, or they moved to a place where there wasn’t a lot of snow. And this is their chance… this is the chance to recapture them.01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:29.000Stuart Winchester: And I thought Jason Bay said it really well yesterday about Camelback, and I know Camelback is not Vail Mountain, but, you know, he would rather create a… a lifelong customer.01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:32.000Stuart Winchester: than a one-time customer. And I think that what you see…01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:38.000Stuart Winchester: with these really mega-huge lift ticket prices. So that’s just for one day. So imagine…01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:44.000Stuart Winchester: you’re a family of four, and you get out to Beaver Creek, and you’re gonna ski for a week, and you find out it’s gonna be $8,000.01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:55.000Stuart Winchester: for the 4U, it’s an idiot tax, or maybe an ignorance tax, right? I experienced this recently myself, because obviously I’m really tuned into skiing, but I rented a car in Ireland.01:12:55.000 --> 01:13:04.000Stuart Winchester: And I’ve rented cars all over the world, all over Europe, and I’ve always just said, oh, my credit card covers it.01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: So I got to Ireland, and they have their own set of rules, which I should have researched, but again, it’s an idiot tax, and they said, uh, sorry, we need proof.01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:16.000Stuart Winchester: Your credit card covers this.01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: Or, it’s gonna be… I think it was another 45 euros a day, and we were there for, you know, a good 10-12 days.01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, I paid. I paid the idiot tax, because I didn’t want to go through the process of proving the credit card, which I didn’t even know how to do that, or if I could reach them.01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I learned my lesson. I feel kind of dumb, and I think that’s what ultimately ends up happening at skiing. I’ll never forget this experience I had at Steamboat in 2020. This was right before the shutdowns.01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:02.000Stuart Winchester: And I went into the ticket office. It’s right at the base of the gondola. Well, I don’t know if they’ve moved it around with all the stuff they’ve done, but it was at the base of the original gondola. I haven’t been back since Wild Blue was put in, but there was a ticket office right there, and I walked in, and.01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:10.000Stuart Winchester: Alpine slide tickets, because she just loves the Alpine slides, and we were done skiing for the day, and that stayed open a little bit later, and there was a big ticket board up.01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:22.000Stuart Winchester: and it gave you the prices for all of the lift tickets for one day, two day, three… and at the time, I mean, this seems quaint now, they were $200 and whatever dollars, so it was over $200.01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:30.000Stuart Winchester: And the… I’ve never seen a sadder line in my life. Like, the people just looked bereft. They just looked like…01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:45.000Stuart Winchester: why are we doing this? You could tell that they were somehow thrust into this situation, and they looked like dead people walking, and they looked like people who were probably going to vacation in the Florida Keys the following year, because they.01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:50.000Stuart Winchester: See those lift ticket prices, and if there’s no…01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:55.000Stuart Winchester: immediate notification that there’s a better way to do it. If there’s no way to buy the bigger pass.01:14:55.000 --> 01:15:11.000Stuart Winchester: I love Vail’s Turn Your Ticket program. I love that they’re reemphasizing it. I don’t think Icon has anything like that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it turns into a one time very frustrated experience. And, you know, any marketer will tell you people talk about their bad experiences.01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:18.000Stuart Winchester: much more than their good experiences. So I think the lift ticket market is out of control.01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: I hope that there is a market correction happening. I don’t have enough confidence to say that right now, but I can say that, unlike in some of the previous years, there are deals out there, even in the heart of ski country.01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:35.000Stuart Winchester: In Summit County.01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this podcast is brought to you today by Profile Search. A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing. But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team? Well, you should call Profile Search International, the ski industry talent acquisition experts.01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:59.000Stuart Winchester: The only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:12.000Stuart Winchester: Profile searches use their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and of available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:18.000Stuart Winchester: Profile search has offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team.01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:31.000Stuart Winchester: You can reach out to Profile Search directly at profilesearch.com, or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note at skiing at substack.com. My email is skiing at substack.com.01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:38.000Stuart Winchester: Might go to spam, I might miss it, but I will try to check my spam folder, and connect you directly with this expert team.01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:41.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is where I would normally…01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:54.000Stuart Winchester: look at feedback from readers on yesterday’s podcast, but I put it out really late, so I don’t know how much feedback I’m gonna have, because sometimes these interviews are just in the evening, so…01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:59.000Stuart Winchester: Let’s see if there’s any comments. There must be a better way to get to the comments. Okay.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, this is from Gustav, longtime paid subscriber. I love that Camelback is pushing their season length. Every region or sub region needs a place like that for the ski community to congregate in the spring. I, I totally agree. And it’s great that the Mid-Atlantic.01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:20.000Stuart Winchester: Has that and they’re being aggressive about it. Camelback has a little elevation to help them out.01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:35.000Stuart Winchester: In the Midwest, you see Lutzen and Granite Peak will sometimes operate into May, but Boyne Mountain has really been pushing it. They sometimes have a competition with, uh, with Mount Bohemia, which has no snow making, which is funny ‘cause Boyne has like the best snow making and to see who can close the latest.01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:50.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, up in New England, you have Black Mountain, improbably has come up in New Hampshire, and Mogensen has been on the podcast recently, and even though it faces south and has a low elevation, he’s been keeping Black Mountain open into May for the past couple of years, and of course.01:17:50.000 --> 01:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Killington, Sugarbush, and Jay Peak always stay open pretty late in Vermont, and uh… and Jay Peak’s been pushing it the last couple years into mid… mid-May, and… and Killington will go to June when they can.01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:18.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which I don’t think they did this year. Uh, anyway, then out west, you, you have the obvious players. You have A-Basin, you have Snowbird, you have Mammoth, you have Palisades Tahoe, uh, you sometimes get Crystal up in, up in, uh, Washington.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:26.000Stuart Winchester: And Bachelor will go late in the ski areas in Mount Hood. Of course, not a lot of good late operators. You know who needs a late operator?01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:31.000Stuart Winchester: is, like, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming.01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:39.000Stuart Winchester: I know that Wyoming has that Beartooth Basin ski area that opens, but am I missing any? Because I don’t think anyone goes for May.01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:47.000Stuart Winchester: And Big Sky told me a few years ago they were gonna start trying to go for May, but I… have not seen them do that yet.01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:56.000Stuart Winchester: Anyway, this is getting too long, and my editor is going to scold me severely. So, I am going to wrap up the show for today.01:18:56.000 --> 01:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: The next show will be tomorrow, it will be the Ask Me Anything, so if you’ve not gotten your questions in yet, please get them over to me. If you are a paid subscriber, that is who I’m reading the questions from. And I’ve got some pretty good questions so far, but I wouldn’t mind a couple more.01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:17.000Stuart Winchester: For more content to get all of the Storm’s updates, reading, writing, podcasts.01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:32.000Stuart Winchester: as soon as they’re out, please go to StormSkiing.com, subscribe to the Storm Skiing newsletter, and the very best way to support independent ski journalism is to upgrade to a paid subscription at StormSkiing.com, which will give you the ability to interact with this podcast, and…00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:26.000Stuart Winchester: Makes your Michigan pop a little more.00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: Well, I appreciate you, uh, breaking the rules.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:51.000Stuart Winchester: for me, Tim. It’s, uh, I think, I think so far, the video’s gotten pretty good reaction. Let me, uh, make sure my transcript is back on. Okay, started the transcript. Okay, good. Gotta set up all my systems.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:38.000Pete Meyer: Okay.00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.000Pete Meyer: Okay.00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:01.000Stuart Winchester: Um, and I’m recording this a little different than the old style, so I’m going in one continuous stream now, so I’ll actually do the show intro, and then I’ll introduce you guys, and then we’ll get into it.00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.000Pete Meyer: Okay.00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:05.000Stuart Winchester: Let me start the recording.00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.000Stuart Winchester: All right. I think I didn’t mess anything up. We’ll see.00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.000Stuart Winchester: All right.00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:29.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:40.000Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan’s Lower Penins.00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I’m always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000Pete Meyer: Good. We’re doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we’re feeling.00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim’s also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that’s…00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there’s tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000Pete Meyer: It.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I’m gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it’s the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn’t built yet. Now that’s in place and we’ll talk about that in a minute and how that’s gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we’re getting and why you’re building it.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000Pete Meyer: I’m going to start with why, because it’s kind of an interesting story, you know.00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.000Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000Pete Meyer: Now we’re gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:55.000Pete Meyer: we’re going to give them a longer run, and the new part we’re giving them is actually the easier half. They’re already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it’s easier, it’s wider, it should be fine.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000Pete Meyer: And that’s what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Pete Meyer: is…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000Pete Meyer: They didn’t really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I’m only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you’re coming into the top, and you… you know, you’re above…00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000Pete Meyer: They’d get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000Pete Meyer: say, there’s no way I’m gonna go down, you know, I’m not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I’m saying, um…00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don’t take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Pete Meyer: And so.00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we’re just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Pete Meyer: And…00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He’s like, you don’t understand. I can’t get them ready for East Peak on this.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it’s like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn’t been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that’s the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Pete Meyer: why it’s a two-year construction, because there’s nothing over there. No services. Um, so we’ve had… we had to…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You’re getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000Pete Meyer: uh, that’s just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it’s gonna show this, you know, it’s gonna take the new skier, um.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that’s similar to what we have throughout the area.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it’s going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it’s all built out, we should have 4 or 5.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren’t just…00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn’t have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it’s just a really neat development. So we think that.00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Pete Meyer: You know, even though it’s not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it’s going to be really popular.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000Stuart Winchester: I’ve always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I’ve always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won’t die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: here I’m looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you’re putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that’s the plan. I mean…00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000Stuart Winchester: So you’re affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don’t know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don’t have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that’s a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn’t have…00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad’s done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they’ve already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that’s why we decided on… on…00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: That’s fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it’s a riblet, which…00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one’s a SeaTac. So, I don’t know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I’ve seen a, there’s a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000Stuart Winchester: to show Peter’s excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I’m sure you’ve seen them. So, there’s a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: they don’t seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that’s the artery. I mean, you know, more people.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it’s the middle. And so it’s you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it’s really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn’t have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don’t know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we don’t run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it’s a redundant lift, and we don’t need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it’s not running some of the time.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it’s, as there’s kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what’s the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don’t know if that’s still a possibility. I don’t know if they’re still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what’s the thought on.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you’ve skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that’s why we call it backcountry, because it’s a…00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000Pete Meyer: Because it’s a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we’re not doing the industry any favors. You know, it’s just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000Pete Meyer: chair, and then we’ll have all green runs that’ll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it’ll be a really nice.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it’s one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn’t always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it’s funny, I…00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I’m not sure. I know where you’re going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we’re not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don’t know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren’t going to lift serve it.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000Stuart Winchester: Got it.00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you’ll let me.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let’s do it.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000Pete Meyer: We’re talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you’re looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, so if you’re, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who’s never skied before.00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000Pete Meyer: Rental.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it’s easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000Pete Meyer: And you’re 30, you know, you’re 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you’re right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it’s really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I’m sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you’re right there, and you have this real easy area.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you’re ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we’re in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it’s going to work out extremely well.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you’re a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Pete Meyer: Yeah.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we’ve talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn’t have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here’s the road looping around, here’s the parking lot.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000Stuart Winchester: And then here’s all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet’s right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there’s a.00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there’s two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It’s a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it’s going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you’ll see that word practice area.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000Stuart Winchester: That’s cool.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000Pete Meyer: It’s a great name for a learn to ski area.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here’s another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you’re taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000Pete Meyer: Oh, that’s more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we’re actually off to the left. It’s all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it’ll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It’s gonna be really, it’s gonna be really nice.00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don’t know if that’s on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you’re looking at, we do own it.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000Pete Meyer: I think that we don’t have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don’t want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that’s, uh, my…00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that’s really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn’t as good. So…00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: Or did they?00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let’s talk passes now, and I’m.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I’m just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there’s no access, and there’s also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000Pete Meyer: So we.00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000Pete Meyer: There’s a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we’ve been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000Pete Meyer: We’re going to talk about — I’ll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it’s important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I’m like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he’s like in his raspy voice.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it’s like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: I’m sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000Pete Meyer: You know what? That’s this.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000Pete Meyer: It wasn’t, it was December 5th, 2019.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I’ll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don’t know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don’t even know if you had it going then.00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow, that’s cool.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn’t in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don’t know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you’re like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I’m like, this pass is awesome, right? It’s great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we’re in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn’t know it was you until I was digging through the data. I’m like, oh, that’s.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’s cool.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000Pete Meyer: That’s that’s so. So anyways, anyways, we’ll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I’m not sure about.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000Stuart Winchester: Love that.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn’t going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we’ll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We’re like, well, let’s let’s try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don’t even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we’re happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can’t fault him.00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it’s just, he, he’s, he’s done a wonderful job with it. You know, he’s obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000Pete Meyer: But he’s blown it up. He just had a different mission.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that’s 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It’s great for them, they get a lot of.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we’re seeing, and we’re watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there’s not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that’s ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Pete Meyer: And.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000Pete Meyer: doesn’t move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn’t, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn’t have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric’s a stand-up guy. He’ll let anybody who…00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they’ll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that’s nice of him to do. Also, for those.00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He’ll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it’s a couple of really good things that he’s doing there, so we’re thankful, thankful for that. But, um.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that’s reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you’ve got time.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let’s linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there’s another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don’t want to overstate it. What’s the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: The fact that you’re no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we’ve been getting…00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we’ve been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let’s just… let’s just be… let’s just be independent and not on any… any, uh…00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there’s a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They’re not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right. That’s right.00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: They’re at, like, 9,000 feet.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000Pete Meyer: Then we, um…00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren’t in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000Pete Meyer: We want to do what’s best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we’ve been hit as much as the negativity that you’ve seen online for leaving any pass, we’ve been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: It’s.00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000Pete Meyer: I’m gonna use it. I’m gonna take a trip. And then we’ve known we’ve gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it’s you’re by that 3rd day you’re waking up and you’re like you can’t even move your legs for you know we’re so so we think it’s a nice.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don’t have to get in a plane. So it’s.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody’s going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn’t even the, like Pete said, we’re, we do like our independence and, and.00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we’re going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it’s it’s.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000Pete Meyer: It’s a it’s a great benefit for our core customers.00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that’s good for skiers, it’s good for.00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we’ll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that’s what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that’s an awesome, awesome deal.00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it’s been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you’re really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000Pete Meyer: No, you’re exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We’re trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That’s the day everybody wants to ski. So if you’re going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that’s one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it’s risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there’s, there’s a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek’s topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: This one’s a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I’m friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn’t know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he’s tough.01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000Pete Meyer: And.01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don’t… I don’t know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s great. I haven’t talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you’re doing great. Pete.01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There’s so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let’s do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven’t been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I’ll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn’t really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there’s some lift ticket deals going on.01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: I’ll tell you about the deals first, and then I’ll, I’ll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we’re gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I’d sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They’re play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They’re doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don’t know if that’s a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don’t think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we’re recording this on September 17th.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: But if you’re listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It’s not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I’m pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it’s funny ‘cause they didn’t even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen’s 80th anniversary.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn’t announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it’s small, but it’s still, it’s, it’s a place you can go. It’s high. There’s no snow making. It’s all natural snow.01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you’re on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they’re $74 to $94. It’s a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it’s $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they’ll have open? Probably not a lot.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: I think you’re seeing some smart reactions from some of the…01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there’s still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one’s surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it’s clear that their direct competitors are doing so. So let’s look at… I want to go…01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a minute, and I want to give you some of these.01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:41.000Stuart Winchester: of these top lift ticket prices for the year. And, and I’ll tell you why I care about top lift ticket prices. And, and I know some of you say, well, it doesn’t matter.01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:46.000Stuart Winchester: I think it does matter, and I’ll tell you why.01:09:46.000 --> 01:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: Aspen’s peak lift ticket this year for any of the Four Mountains, or all of the Four Mountains, however you want to look at it, is $309. They used to keep pretty on par with Vail. Not anymore. Vail will hit $374.01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: Beaver Creek tops in the nation, probably the world $392 in some parts of the world that will get you on a helicopter. Like no joke. I hired a guide in Europe and this was several years ago, but we took one heli run and I think the day was, I don’t know, €250.01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then that also got us onto the resort for a guide for the rest of the day. So, so it, you know, 392, that’s, that’s something else. Uh, Steamboat will be 344. That’s an Alterra-owned mountain. Another Alterra flagship, Deer Valley, is 349. Vail flagship, Park City, is set to be 369. Again, these are peak day walk-up rates.01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: So we’re seeing these continue to rise around Colorado. I don’t think that that will change. I wish it would, but I don’t think it will. They’re busy enough at those times. We’re actually seeing a little softening in Tahoe.01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: And Vale didn’t, as far as I know, really promote this hard, but Heavenly, their top lift ticket last year was 3 0 5. They’ve knocked that to 2 84 and a big drop at North Star 3 29 was their top lift ticket rate last year. And that’s down.01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:21.000Stuart Winchester: So I think possibly we found the top of the market in Tahoe. In New England, Mount Snow, that’s Vail, $206. Killington, Independent, $225. Stratton, that’s Altera, $229. Okemo, $231.01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: And Stowe, Vail’s flagship in New England, $272. So, you’re probably saying, Stu, why do you care? We know you don’t pay these prices. No one listening to this podcast pays those prices.01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:49.000Stuart Winchester: But I don’t… and… and… trust me, the ski companies are frustrated that I talk about these prices. Why are you talking about a $392 lift ticket? There’s so many ways to get on Beaver Creek for cheaper. Well, because it’s a $392 lift ticket. And some people…01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: People don’t know that, and if they haven’t skied in.01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:55.000Stuart Winchester: A decade?01:11:55.000 --> 01:12:09.000Stuart Winchester: 15 years, and maybe their brother-in-law gets a place out in Vail, and suddenly they go up, and they say, okay, we’ll just get lift tickets when we get there, because that’s what they’ve done before.01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:18.000Stuart Winchester: And maybe they like skiing, but maybe they stepped away from it because they had kids, or they moved to a place where there wasn’t a lot of snow. And this is their chance… this is the chance to recapture them.01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:29.000Stuart Winchester: And I thought Jason Bay said it really well yesterday about Camelback, and I know Camelback is not Vail Mountain, but, you know, he would rather create a… a lifelong customer.01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:32.000Stuart Winchester: than a one-time customer. And I think that what you see…01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:38.000Stuart Winchester: with these really mega-huge lift ticket prices. So that’s just for one day. So imagine…01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:44.000Stuart Winchester: you’re a family of four, and you get out to Beaver Creek, and you’re gonna ski for a week, and you find out it’s gonna be $8,000.01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:55.000Stuart Winchester: for the 4U, it’s an idiot tax, or maybe an ignorance tax, right? I experienced this recently myself, because obviously I’m really tuned into skiing, but I rented a car in Ireland.01:12:55.000 --> 01:13:04.000Stuart Winchester: And I’ve rented cars all over the world, all over Europe, and I’ve always just said, oh, my credit card covers it.01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: So I got to Ireland, and they have their own set of rules, which I should have researched, but again, it’s an idiot tax, and they said, uh, sorry, we need proof.01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:16.000Stuart Winchester: Your credit card covers this.01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:23.000Stuart Winchester: Or, it’s gonna be… I think it was another 45 euros a day, and we were there for, you know, a good 10-12 days.01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, I paid. I paid the idiot tax, because I didn’t want to go through the process of proving the credit card, which I didn’t even know how to do that, or if I could reach them.01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I learned my lesson. I feel kind of dumb, and I think that’s what ultimately ends up happening at skiing. I’ll never forget this experience I had at Steamboat in 2020. This was right before the shutdowns.01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:02.000Stuart Winchester: And I went into the ticket office. It’s right at the base of the gondola. Well, I don’t know if they’ve moved it around with all the stuff they’ve done, but it was at the base of the original gondola. I haven’t been back since Wild Blue was put in, but there was a ticket office right there, and I walked in, and.01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:10.000Stuart Winchester: Alpine slide tickets, because she just loves the Alpine slides, and we were done skiing for the day, and that stayed open a little bit later, and there was a big ticket board up.01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:22.000Stuart Winchester: and it gave you the prices for all of the lift tickets for one day, two day, three… and at the time, I mean, this seems quaint now, they were $200 and whatever dollars, so it was over $200.01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:30.000Stuart Winchester: And the… I’ve never seen a sadder line in my life. Like, the people just looked bereft. They just looked like…01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:45.000Stuart Winchester: why are we doing this? You could tell that they were somehow thrust into this situation, and they looked like dead people walking, and they looked like people who were probably going to vacation in the Florida Keys the following year, because they.01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:50.000Stuart Winchester: See those lift ticket prices, and if there’s no…01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:55.000Stuart Winchester: immediate notification that there’s a better way to do it. If there’s no way to buy the bigger pass.01:14:55.000 --> 01:15:11.000Stuart Winchester: I love Vail’s Turn Your Ticket program. I love that they’re reemphasizing it. I don’t think Icon has anything like that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it turns into a one time very frustrated experience. And, you know, any marketer will tell you people talk about their bad experiences.01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:18.000Stuart Winchester: much more than their good experiences. So I think the lift ticket market is out of control.01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: I hope that there is a market correction happening. I don’t have enough confidence to say that right now, but I can say that, unlike in some of the previous years, there are deals out there, even in the heart of ski country.01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:35.000Stuart Winchester: In Summit County.01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this podcast is brought to you today by Profile Search. A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing. But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team? Well, you should call Profile Search International, the ski industry talent acquisition experts.01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:59.000Stuart Winchester: The only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:12.000Stuart Winchester: Profile searches use their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and of available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:18.000Stuart Winchester: Profile search has offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team.01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:31.000Stuart Winchester: You can reach out to Profile Search directly at profilesearch.com, or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note at skiing at substack.com. My email is skiing at substack.com.01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:38.000Stuart Winchester: Might go to spam, I might miss it, but I will try to check my spam folder, and connect you directly with this expert team.01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:41.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is where I would normally…01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:54.000Stuart Winchester: look at feedback from readers on yesterday’s podcast, but I put it out really late, so I don’t know how much feedback I’m gonna have, because sometimes these interviews are just in the evening, so…01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:59.000Stuart Winchester: Let’s see if there’s any comments. There must be a better way to get to the comments. Okay.01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, this is from Gustav, longtime paid subscriber. I love that Camelback is pushing their season length. Every region or sub region needs a place like that for the ski community to congregate in the spring. I, I totally agree. And it’s great that the Mid-Atlantic.01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:20.000Stuart Winchester: Has that and they’re being aggressive about it. Camelback has a little elevation to help them out.01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:35.000Stuart Winchester: In the Midwest, you see Lutzen and Granite Peak will sometimes operate into May, but Boyne Mountain has really been pushing it. They sometimes have a competition with, uh, with Mount Bohemia, which has no snow making, which is funny ‘cause Boyne has like the best snow making and to see who can close the latest.01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:50.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, up in New England, you have Black Mountain, improbably has come up in New Hampshire, and Mogensen has been on the podcast recently, and even though it faces south and has a low elevation, he’s been keeping Black Mountain open into May for the past couple of years, and of course.01:17:50.000 --> 01:18:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Killington, Sugarbush, and Jay Peak always stay open pretty late in Vermont, and uh… and Jay Peak’s been pushing it the last couple years into mid… mid-May, and… and Killington will go to June when they can.01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:18.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which I don’t think they did this year. Uh, anyway, then out west, you, you have the obvious players. You have A-Basin, you have Snowbird, you have Mammoth, you have Palisades Tahoe, uh, you sometimes get Crystal up in, up in, uh, Washington.01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:26.000Stuart Winchester: And Bachelor will go late in the ski areas in Mount Hood. Of course, not a lot of good late operators. You know who needs a late operator?01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:31.000Stuart Winchester: is, like, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming.01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:39.000Stuart Winchester: I know that Wyoming has that Beartooth Basin ski area that opens, but am I missing any? Because I don’t think anyone goes for May.01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:47.000Stuart Winchester: And Big Sky told me a few years ago they were gonna start trying to go for May, but I… have not seen them do that yet.01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:56.000Stuart Winchester: Anyway, this is getting too long, and my editor is going to scold me severely. So, I am going to wrap up the show for today.01:18:56.000 --> 01:19:11.000Stuart Winchester: The next show will be tomorrow, it will be the Ask Me Anything, so if you’ve not gotten your questions in yet, please get them over to me. If you are a paid subscriber, that is who I’m reading the questions from. And I’ve got some pretty good questions so far, but I wouldn’t mind a couple more.01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:17.000Stuart Winchester: For more content to get all of the Storm’s updates, reading, writing, podcasts.01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:32.000Stuart Winchester: as soon as they’re out, please go to StormSkiing.com, subscribe to the Storm Skiing newsletter, and the very best way to support independent ski journalism is to upgrade to a paid subscription at StormSkiing.com, which will give you the ability to interact with this podcast, and…. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast likes it when ski areas are run by people who are good at running ski areas. Please subscribe to the email newsletter to get new posts the moment they’re live. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CamelbackOwned by: EPR Properties, managed by Peregrine Hospitality (formerly KSL Resorts)Located in: Tannersville, PennsylvaniaYear founded: 1963Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 7 days, no blackouts* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackoutsClosest neighboring ski areas: Shawnee Mountain (:24), Jack Frost (:26), Big Boulder (:27), Skytop Lodge (:29), Saw Creek (:37), Blue Mountain (:41), Pocono Ranchlands (:43), Montage (:44), Hideout (:51), Elk Mountain (1:05), Bear Creek (1:09), Ski Big Bear (1:16)Base elevation: 1,252 feetSummit elevation: 2,079 feetVertical drop: 827 feetSkiable Acres: 166Average annual snowfall: 50 inchesTrail count: 45, with three new trails for 2026-27 (not on the map below, but discussed on the podcast)Lift count: 12 (1 high-speed six-pack, 1 high-speed quad, 1 fixed-grip quad, 2 triples, 2 doubles, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog’s inventory of Camelback’s lift fleet)For reference:The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:37.000Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Wednesday, September 16th, 2026, and I’ve got a really good show for you today.00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:45.000Stuart Winchester: we’re going to talk some Pennsylvania skiing. And Pennsylvania skiing is a really interesting thing. As I travel around the country.00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:56.000Stuart Winchester: and ski at all these different places in the Midwest, and out West, and in New England, and in the Mid-Atlantic. Uh, and as I talk to folks who… who don’t ski that much, or only ski at the big mountains.00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:05.000Stuart Winchester: I’ll often bring up some experience I had at a Pennsylvania ski area. Pennsylvania has quite a few ski areas as 21.00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:20.000Stuart Winchester: public chairlift-served ski areas, and it does 2.6 million skier visits on average per year. That is more than any state except for Colorado, California, Utah, Vermont, and New York.00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:26.000Stuart Winchester: It’s more than Washington, it’s more than Oregon, it’s more than Montana, it’s more than New.00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:39.000Stuart Winchester: So, Pennsylvania is a really important ski state, which is probably why Vail Resorts owns 8 ski areas there, because it is really close to a lot of population centers. In western PA, you have Pittsburgh.00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: and Seven Springs, and Laurel, and Hidden Valley, and then you have Philadelphia on the east side, and you can also draw up from Baltimore and D.C. for Round Top and Whitetail. And uh…00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.000Stuart Winchester: And Jack Frost’s Big Boulder up in the Poconos. So…00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: Vail has a big presence there.00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:15.000Stuart Winchester: Icon has a presence there with Camelback and Blue Mountain. Uh, and then Indy Pass just signed their 8th ski area in Pennsylvania with Spring Mountain, uh, down near Philadelphia. So, so it’s, it’s a place where a lot of skiers start.00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.000Stuart Winchester: And it’s a little bit of a funny place to ski, because…00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:29.000Stuart Winchester: it tends to have an outsized number of novice skiers, which is great. They’re very good at doing that. Uh, but it can make it a little chaotic.00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:38.000Stuart Winchester: And the lift lines can get a little crazy, and people are all over the hill, and sometimes they’re walking down the hill because they’re frustrated and they’re giving up.00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and…00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.000Stuart Winchester: You take that as your baseline in Pennsylvania.00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.000Stuart Winchester: And you had any sort of complications.00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:54.000Stuart Winchester: And things get out of hand really quickly. And in general.00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:00.000Stuart Winchester: For that reason, the ski areas that have survived in Pennsylvania.00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:07.000Stuart Winchester: are among the best operators in the world, and I would put that up against anyone.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: It’s a very, very challenging environment, not only because you have a high number of novice skiers.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but also because you have…00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:31.000Stuart Winchester: not a ton of snow, sometimes in the west part of the state, where there’s higher elevation, they do get a lot of snow, but… but not as a rule, you couldn’t count on it for natural snow. Uh, you get a lot of rain, you get a lot of warm-ups.00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and… and you, in general, have to rely on…00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:42.000Stuart Winchester: a very short season, generally mid-December-ish to mid-March-ish.00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiers there…00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:52.000Stuart Winchester: They’re they’re accustomed to a pretty high standard, so.00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:57.000Stuart Winchester: So when things do get out of control, uh…00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:04.000Stuart Winchester: They really rebelled, and they really noticed. So, a couple years ago, this is what happened at Camelback. So, Camelback…00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.000Stuart Winchester: You know, I don’t generally do ops stories, uh…00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know.00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.000Stuart Winchester: ski area didn’t groom this run, or they haven’t opened this lift, or, uh, you know, they usually let this bump up, but they don’t, or, or…00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:27.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they… they are trying to save money, or they’re being cheap. I generally don’t bother with those, even though I get a lot of messages.00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:32.000Stuart Winchester: Complaining about things like that, because there’s almost always a pretty good reason.00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and it’s almost always temporary, and it’s really not worth the effort.00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: to write the story if I’m just writing about, you know, why Stratton or Mount Snow or Magic Mountain didn’t open a certain lift on a certain day.00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s, it’s a lot to track down and it’s a lot of, uh, this person said this and the other person said that. It’s just not the kind of thing that I’m want to cover with the storm, right? I want to do bigger stories. I want to do trend stories. I want to look at the culture and evolution of skiing.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the passes, and all the infrastructure, and all the fun stuff. So I don’t generally cover the day-to-day stuff, just because…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:18.000Stuart Winchester: The ski areas that remain in 2026 are, for the most part, run by really good operators.00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:32.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it… because… and they’ve survived. Most of the bad ski areas that were either mismanaged or were in the wrong places, they went out of business a long time ago, which is why the number of ski areas has been stable for around 25 years now in America.00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.000Stuart Winchester: So I but I started to notice.00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: several years ago that I was getting an outsized number of complaints around one ski area in particular in the Poconos.00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000Stuart Winchester: And it was Camelback.00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000Stuart Winchester: And Camelback had a long history of being an independent.00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.000Stuart Winchester: Really…00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:59.000Stuart Winchester: the way it’s been described to me by… by season pass holders, and I’ve skied…00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000Stuart Winchester: some at Camelback, but I don’t have that depth of knowledge of having grown up there.00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:20.000Stuart Winchester: That Camelback for a long time, for decades, set the standard on snowmaking, on grooming, on just general maintenance of lifts in the ski area in the Poconos. And that was why they had chosen to ski there all those years.00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000Stuart Winchester: But things had started to fall apart when a new owner showed up in 2019. It was at the time KSL Capital, who was.00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: was managing it for EPR Properties, which is the entity that bought it, and they own a bunch of ski areas, EPR Properties, including a bunch owned by Vail, including North Star, and a lot of the old Peak Resorts in Ohio and such.00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.000Stuart Winchester: And KSL Resorts was a division of KSL Capital.00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.000Stuart Winchester: which is a part owner of Altera.00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000Stuart Winchester: But for some reason, Altera, which is very good at running ski resorts.00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.000Stuart Winchester: did not…00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:15.000Stuart Winchester: get assigned as the… as the owner of Camelback. And when KSL Resorts purchased Blue Mountain, not in Ontario, the Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania, that’s about 45 minutes from Camelback, two years later, in 2021.00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:26.000Stuart Winchester: That ski area also did not fall under Altera’s ownership. And it was an odd choice to make, because Altera’s really good at running ski areas, and they run…00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mammoth, and Deer Valley, and Steamboat, and Solitude, and Palisades Tahoe, and Stratton, and Sugarbush, and they definitely have.00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.000Stuart Winchester: the institutional knowledge and internal firepower to be able to run these ski areas in the Poconos.00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Blue Mountain…00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000Stuart Winchester: Had the benefit of a long time tenured management team.00:10:47.000 --> 00:11:02.000Stuart Winchester: That kept the place, by all accounts, running pretty well. Camelback, on the other hand, seemed to be falling apart before our eyes, and before the eyes of the loyalist skiers who loved the place so much. And they were really, really concerned, and I started to…00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:08.000Stuart Winchester: Because they had put, uh, a management team in place, it seemed.00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.000Stuart Winchester: that…00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:22.000Stuart Winchester: was not familiar with the… with the inner workings of a ski area. Uh, I… I hosted Dave Makarski, the former general manager of Kalenbach, on this podcast.00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: and very nice guy. We had a great conversation. Uh, he’s not a skier. And, and, you know, sometimes you can be not a skier and run a great ski resort. Uh, look at Bill Stritzler up at Smuggler’s Notch.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Bill hasn’t skied in years, and he snowboarded for a little bit, but he’s not a daily skier. Look at Shawnee.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:54.000Stuart Winchester: that where the owner… that’s one of the most modern, nice ski areas in the Poconos, uh, and the owner has not skied in decades. So, so it’s not always necessary, uh, but…00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:10.000Stuart Winchester: It does help and it’s certainly a benefit. So everyone I talked to, I was, I was gathering all this stuff for a story and I was gonna write about Camelback and, and it, it really seemed like it was the worst run ski area anywhere that I could find based on the amount of feedback I was getting.00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: I was gathering all this feedback from all these long-time pass holders, and then they hired a new general manager, and so I scrapped the story, but I still wanted to get it, and by all accounts, Jason Bays, who I’ll bring on the podcast in a moment.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:34.000Stuart Winchester: has really done a nice job of turning CamelBak around. So, so let’s go to Jason now.00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:16.000Stuart Winchester: My guest today is the Vice President and General Manager of Camelback Ski Area in Pennsylvania.00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:26.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback runs six chairlifts, or maybe seven. I might have had a typo there. Serving 45 trails on an 827-foot vertical drop.00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:41.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Camelback, he was general manager for Great Wolf Resorts around the United States. He also spent time as chief operating officer and general manager of Mountain Creek Ski Area in New Jersey and director of operations.00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: for Jay Peak, Vermont. His very first jobs as a teenager were as a lifeguard and ski instructor at Camelback. Jason Bay is my guest. Jason, welcome to the Storm. Awesome to have you. How you doing today?00:14:53.000 --> 00:15:00.000Jason Bays: Thank you, Stuart. Great to be here. I’ve been a listener from day one, so excited to join you.00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:14.000Stuart Winchester: I love that. I’m so hyped to hear that. I know I started with a little Northeast focus. You know, you’re the… you probably know this already, but you’re the second straight guest I’ve had on. There was a Mountain Creek alum, Chris Haggerty, on yesterday. Are you acquainted with Chris?00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.000Jason Bays: Yeah, Chris and I worked together, um, back in our days at Mountain Creek, great guy.00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, I’m, uh, I’m not sure, I’m sure you’re aware I’m based in New York City and Mountain Creek is one of my go-tos and, and was my home mountain before I started traveling all over the place for the storm. So, so, you know, Jason, I, I think it’s awesome that you grew up at Camelback. Tal.00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:41.000Stuart Winchester: your childhood Camelback. What was the kingdom of Camelback like to you, uh, when you were growing up skiing there?00:15:40.000 --> 00:16:03.000Jason Bays: Yeah, look, I, you know, took, I grew up in Pocono Kid, born and raised 10 minutes from the resort. After school ski program was the first, you know, first sort of foray into life at Camelback and was immediately hooked in the summer as a swimming pool and two water slides. I thought that was the most awesome place in the world too.00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:21.000Jason Bays: And my parents thought it was a great babysitting service, you know, relative to that. So it was just an awesome, awesome place to grow up and, you know, be part of the small but mighty ski community that is Tannersville, Pennsylvania, in this area, in the Poconos.00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:39.000Jason Bays: um, you know, when it came to get a first job, uh, there’s no place I was, uh, gonna consider other than Camelback. It’s where all my friends were, it’s where we all hung out all the time, and, um, you know, really just got introduced to, uh, to the sport, and, um, had some freedom. It was the first time I had some freedom, and it was to be at Camelback, so that’s.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:56.000Stuart Winchester: So you worked there, and you were part of the machine, so to speak, and I realized you were sort of on the peripheral of the machine, as opposed to in the center of it, as you are now. But, you know, you grew up in the Poconos, and had that experience, and you had this vision of Camelback in your head, right? Then you went off and had a big life, as…00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.000Jason Bays: Yes.00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000Stuart Winchester: as people do, and you went and worked at all these places that I just mentioned.00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: And then you came back to Camelback.00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: When you, when you arrived.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000Stuart Winchester: How had the place changed? And I just want to tee this up. I, you know.00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:19.000Stuart Winchester: before you came on, I was talking about how I don’t generally write operations stories, right? Because it… there’s usually a good reason for why a trail is closed, a lift’s not running.00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:26.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but a few years ago, I started to get an outsized number of complaints about Camelback.00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:38.000Stuart Winchester: And so I started to write a story about it, and then when you came along, I shelved it, because honestly, everyone immediately was like, oh, this is so much better. So, you know, how had…00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback changed.00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.000Stuart Winchester: when you…00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000Stuart Winchester: Came back to work there.00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:51.000Stuart Winchester: And what were the challenges facing the resort? What did you focus on immediately?00:17:50.000 --> 00:18:08.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I’ll just back up to say, you know, just to contextualize, um, from when I was there as a teenager and, um, through college on the ski team, too, I would say that community was a really big word, um, that was used all the time. You, you felt like it was, it was the Camelback community, and there’s a really big emphasis on the ski product.00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:28.000Jason Bays: Um, as a ski instructor, like, what we were putting out, how we were doing lessons, how many lessons we could do, and the experience that was surrounding that. And same thing on the water park side. And, you know, I think the, um, you know, some of the observations, um, coming back to Camelback was, um, I think there’s a little bit of focus, um, focus direction for, for, like, to focus on the ski product.00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:44.000Jason Bays: and focusing on the water park product, and I sort of look at it as, like, a… as Disney World, right? Whereas we fill out… if we do the ski part well, we do the snow tubing part well, we do the water park well, that puts heads in beds, um, versus trying to put heads in beds.00:18:44.000 --> 00:19:01.000Jason Bays: And then have them do the activities. We’re leading with an activity front and centered focus. And that means making the strategic investments in the ski product, in our recreational product, and making that the very best that it can be.00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:23.000Jason Bays: back in 2008 when I was here as a teenager, that was all there was. There was no hotel product, right? So the ski product got outsized attention just naturally because it was a 560-acre resort that identified as a ski area and a water park. And I think some of the context that was missing was that while there’s been a great evolution of Camelback as a four-season resort.00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:40.000Jason Bays: It’s really important that, to me, that each of those business units gets the time and attention that they would deserve if they were stand-alone units, particularly because a cog… it’s a cog in the wheel, and that wheel is… it’s a flywheel. It needs to… it all needs to turn at once, and so we lead with.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.000Jason Bays: the recreational offerings first.00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, you mentioned the community, and I wasn’t aware…00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:59.000Stuart Winchester: that there was such a strong community around Camelback, and I’m not surprised, because most ski areas have that group of folks who, you know, they’re retirees, and they boot up at 8am, and they take runs together.00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:14.000Stuart Winchester: But they were really passionate, and the running theme, Jason, in the emails and messages that I got from Camelback locals was that they loved Camelback. It wasn’t that they hated Camelback, they hated to complain about Camelback.00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:18.000Stuart Winchester: They wanted to love it, but they couldn’t. There was there was.00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: a lot of things they cited, uh, not making snowmaking when it’s cold, understaffed grooming, uh, missed lift inspections. I don’t know if this is true. This is what people were… they were reaching, I think, for answers. Uh, put it all together, and there was… it was definitely…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: seemed as though the ski product was not the focus. So when you came in, what did you focus on right away and say, okay, this is what we gotta change, you know, we have to cover every trail 100% right away, or whatever it was?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:09.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I think that’s, look, I would start, you hit the nail on the head that there’s a very passionate skiing community here at Camelback and in the Poconos and it means a lot to people. This is second, third generations that are learning to ski here, bring their families here and be part of this. And to your point, everyone wants to be prideful of Camelback, right?00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:24.000Jason Bays: This was the, this was family run for a really long time and, you know, very focused on sort of the, you know, season pass holders renewing year after year.00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:40.000Jason Bays: You know, a couple of things. One is I think that how we authentically tell our story isn’t done in a way that is, you know, is done in a way that’s authentic. A, bringing back the Camelback Mountain Facebook page that communicated ski related content.00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:21:40.000 --> 00:22:06.000Jason Bays: Right? I think that, you know, there’s only so many things you can say about a hotel room and how exciting it is. Like, we really lead now first with authentically telling the story. Our snow report got a lot more detailed, gave granular information as to what was going on. So, you know, did we have a perfect winter last winter? By all means, no, but we communicated that authentically. And where we messed up, we took.00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:23.000Jason Bays: the blame for it, and said, hey, we didn’t get this right, and where we were working to improve the experience, we communicated that… communicated that story. So, to me, it started from a communication standpoint, that we were authentic, that we were honest, that we were truthful, and that we were communicating on a medium that.00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:31.000Jason Bays: our guests would see, um, and relate to. So I think a big miss was, I think, admittedly, a big miss was removing the, um, Camelback Mountain.00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:53.000Jason Bays: social media pages, um, and bringing those back were really important so that, um, we could tell the story authentically. I think SKUs really appreciate, um, knowing what’s going on, and to your point on, hey, there’s sort of this rumor flying or that rumor flying, um, you know, we were able to, uh, sort of hone in and, and tell, tell that story. Secondarily, I think from an infrastructure standpoint.00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:09.000Jason Bays: um, we really needed to make sure that we had, um, the right team in place. And we have an amazingly talented team at Camelback, um, but we did not have key positions filled, um, in certain areas. Um, and so, we bolstered up the snowmaking. Snowmaking team went from.00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.000Stuart Winchester: Like, what areas?00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:30.000Jason Bays: you know, 3 to 4 to 30, um, this past winter, um, that makes a big difference, right? Our trail rollout was, um, you know, first to open in the East, uh, for Pennsylvania, um, and, uh, um, and, and focus on the core products. Um, same thing with lift operations. We brought in a really experienced lift, uh, maintenance manager.00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.000Stuart Winchester: Hey!00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:46.000Jason Bays: Um, to our team that really helped, um, support our Lyft, um, uh, operation. Um, decisions on when Lyfts ran and what time they ran, uh, you know, our thought was, let’s, um, be more… like, you have to run the Terrain Park Lyft every day.00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:06.000Jason Bays: to me, that’s a commitment. We make that every day. We say we’re running the Glen Lift every day. It services great novice terrain. It services the train park. And so, looking at the operational plan and saying, okay, what are ways that we can give back, you know, and make deposits back to our skiers? And in turn.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:24.000Jason Bays: that builds momentum, right? People talk, and, like, the ski community is so connected, right? It’s like, if you do something, like, people find out about it, because they’re really, you know, they hear about it. And so, for us, focus on the core business was, um, you know, from a ski standpoint, was really important, and the infrastructure.00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:41.000Jason Bays: to be able to do it. And I would just, lastly, just say I go back to making sure that our team had the resources to do their job. We’re supported, we’re empowered, collaborative leadership, you know, we sat around the table and said, this is the operating plan, this is what we’re going to do for our guests.00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:46.000Jason Bays: And then go out and execute it to the best we can.00:24:45.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Jason, I, I, I think you could have run for governor with one of the first things that you did, which was get rid of paid parking. I, I, I don’t think that I’ve ever, uh, heard people happier about anything. Now, now, and let me, let me qualify this, right? I think in, in some instances, paid parking and parking reservations.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.000Stuart Winchester: make sense.00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:18.000Stuart Winchester: you know, super high volume days. Arapahoe Basin, I think, is a model in Colorado where they only charge for certain days and certain times, and they keep backing off which days as they learn when they really need it. Camelback was charging every day.00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:36.000Stuart Winchester: All day, you know, a Monday with, you know, 10 people on the mountain, they were charging for it. And, you know, acknowledging that sometimes it’s appropriate, I think Camelback got pretty out of hand with it, and when I had Mr. Markowski on the podcast, great guy, we had a great conversation, but he was not backing off that. He said, nope, paid parking.00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: we’re all in. You said no. So talk about that and how you sold. I’d imagine it was a revenue stream, right? And you had to sell management on that, and I don’t know if I’m giving you credit for something someone else did, but talk to us about parking and the evolution there.00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:12.000Jason Bays: Yeah, that was a week one decision from the Camelback team when I got here made from our leadership team at Camelback that everyone was in alignment on our senior leadership team here at the property and myself to remove the paid parking. And I think definitely there’s actually you have so many nice pictures behind you.00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:30.000Jason Bays: I have a picture of the old paid parking sign behind me there, if you can see it on the corner, and it actually serves to me as a reminder of the guest experience, because someone’s put a sticker on that paid parking sign that you probably can’t see there, but it says, Ski Camelback, we’re not happy until you’re not happy.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:48.000Jason Bays: Um, and it’s a reminder to, to me and our team, um, that we’re here to have fun, and we’re here for the guest experience, and we’re here to live, live and breathe fun Camelback style. This is not a, um, you know, we want guests to look forward to, to being here. And I think, you know, yes, there was.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:05.000Jason Bays: So obviously we ran a financial model. We didn’t just, you know, get rid of paid parking and not assume, you know, that there wasn’t some revenue to be recaptured elsewhere with a strategy to do it. But I think more importantly, you know, think about it.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:22.000Jason Bays: a non-busy day, it might even be raining, it’s 40 degrees, the last thing you want is someone running around a parking lot telling you, like, hey, I need you to hand over $15, and by the way, then you’re gonna schlep your stuff up two different levels of parking, um, you know, that might be even charged higher, and then get to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:38.000Jason Bays: uh, the mountain and go to guest services. You know, I have a 3-year-old. If my wife and I went skiing, that would be an incredible amount of friction, um, just to get to, uh, the front of the mountain. And so I think putting ourselves in the guest lens of saying, is that really what we want the guests to experience?00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:53.000Jason Bays: Um, it’s not, and, and it was a burden to everyone at this, you know, you think I’m talking about, we talked to frontline associates too, like, the first thing that they had to tell people was that they had to pay for parking. You just imagine, sort of, the cascading effect that, that, that, uh, that that had, and we said, look, is there.00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:09.000Jason Bays: Um, is there a better way? Um, can we run shuttles to these lots and pick people up and bring them to the mountain and make them feel, um, you know, like our valued… like our valued guests? What does that arrival experience look like? Um, you know, that’s really what we… what we looked at, and then said, okay.00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:25.000Jason Bays: can we… ultimately, will we drive more volume here? Will more people come because of a better guest experience? And I’ll say that I would rather grow the sport, grow the industry. Our team would rather grow the sport and grow the industry than figuring out how to.00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:35.000Jason Bays: You know, sort of, you know, run a secondary ancillary business that’s not to our core product and what we want our guests to experience here.00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:48.000Stuart Winchester: You know, it’s a little counterintuitive, but sometimes, by removing a revenue stream, you get that less-is-more effect. Another example, your season pass, you know, according to my records.00:28:48.000 --> 00:29:04.000Stuart Winchester: Starting in 2020 to ‘21, the season pass was $599 at its early bird price, and it hovered between that and $649 for the next five years. This year, you put it on sale for $399. It’s still at that price for unlimited Camelback.00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:20.000Stuart Winchester: That’s a great bargain for, uh, for a season pass on the East Coast, and, you know, for the listeners, you are competing with the Epic Pass, which has Jack Frost, Big Boulder, right down the road, a couple exits down I-80, and their Northeast season pass is pretty affordable, and it’s a pretty good deal.00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:33.000Stuart Winchester: So… so talk to us about that decision and… and… and how… how that $399 is worth it. You also wrote back, if you want to talk about, uh, the… the triple pack. I thought that was great, and I don’t have the price right in front of me, but… but you’ve really done a lot to… to…00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.000Stuart Winchester: create more of a value experience for that loyal Camelback skier, from my point of view.00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:55.000Jason Bays: Yeah, thank you, and that’s definitely the goal. Um, you know, I think our thought process here is let’s get more people on Snow, um, and have them have a great experience while they’re here. Um, I would love to tell you that there’s some master business plan behind this.00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:10.000Jason Bays: But, you know, truly, at the heart of what we do is, let’s figure out how to get more people on snow, get them to a spot where they want to come back and learn and be part of it. And guess what I would just share to that is.00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:24.000Jason Bays: you know, we were charging a day ticket in 2025 of $169, um, at its highest point, right? And I would rather have a lifelong… I would rather have one per… I would much rather, I think from business proposition, we would rather have.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:39.000Jason Bays: one person definitely not come and spend $15 to $40 to park and $169 and say, I’m never coming back, versus $399, now they’re like, wow, this place is awesome, I’m getting a great value, I bring my family.00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000Stuart Winchester: Damn.00:30:39.000 --> 00:31:01.000Jason Bays: I want to come enjoy food and beverage. And hey, by the way, we also have this great snow tubing park and this great water park. And would you like to stay at our hotel when you come with your season pass and enjoy Aquatopia? And we’re debuting The Curse of Camelback this fall, right? Which is the Halloween, if you haven’t heard, it’s a Halloween 13 scare zones. Take a chair, lift up to it.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:24.000Jason Bays: But I say all that to say we’ve got so many great cross marketing promotional opportunities at Camelback that that really becomes a super compelling business case for us. And I think it’s the right thing to do for the sport is grow it, make it more accessible, allow more people to come here and see what we have to offer. I can’t tell you how many people I meet, whether it’s snow tubing, skiing.00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:41.000Jason Bays: water park, the hotel, whatever they’re here for, CBKMA or Adventure Park, they have no idea that the other part exists to, um, the resort. And I’ll share that that’s been the case even in, like, when I was, uh, at Jay Peak running the water park.00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:43.000Jason Bays: People would come there, and they’d be like.00:31:43.000 --> 00:32:02.000Jason Bays: what is this mountain that is here? And it’s Jay Peak, like, one of the most hardcore ski resorts in the world. And there were people that were coming there and were like, I had no idea there was a ski resort here. So, if it’s true at Jay Peak, it certainly is true at Camelback, where.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:19.000Jason Bays: we have all these different offerings that people don’t know about, maybe necessarily about all of them, so our fundamental business philosophy is make it accessible, make them lifelong, um, skiers and riders, and introduce them to everything that we have to offer here in the Poconos. And I would just argue, when I say Poconos.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:41.000Jason Bays: Like go, like experience Shawnee and experience Jack Frost Big Boulder and experience, you know, the other great ski areas in this region and Mountain Creek and wherever else and get a flavor for it. I think that’s, we could use more skiers in the industry and to grow the sport. So for us, that’s sort of the long-term business model that we’re using.00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:58.000Stuart Winchester: So, I just looked at the triple ticket, and it looks like $149, and I think that’s no blackouts. $199 includes rentals. That’s pretty amazing. So, talk about that product, and then you mentioned the $169 peak day ticket. Have you settled on prices yet for 2020?00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:03.000Stuart Winchester: 6, 27. I should have checked your site in advance, but I didn’t. So I don’t know if you’ve.00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we have not, uh, posted, uh, day ticket prices for this year. Last year, um, we didn’t exceed around $110, um, on a day ticket. Uh, so we kept it, I think, pretty reasonable for, for, for a, for a Pocono offering. Um, triple tickets, massive, um, success, uh, for us.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:37.000Jason Bays: Um, and when we talk about, like, again, getting more people introduced to the sport, you don’t necessarily pick up skiing on the first time. Um, you think about that rental product, which we, um, tremendously… whatever we had on the pro forma for that was, uh, blown by by, like.00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:53.000Jason Bays: 400% on the triple ticket with rentals. And what I really believe in is that, you know, you become a lifelong skier by getting repetition, not by going once a year. It’s really hard to sustain as a skier going once a year.00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:11.000Jason Bays: and saying, oh yeah, that was our trip. We’re really trying to create a guest for life and get them to return visit. That’s in many ways more important to us than, again, trying to get, like, the highest yield on that one day that they picked. Like, come back and visit our resort and, um, you know, again, the business side to this is.00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:28.000Jason Bays: we’re cross-marketing across all of our other offerings here that we have on this campus to say, come and visit us again. And again, to us, that’s more important than, you know, the highest yield that we can get to. So the triple ticket’s really successful. And I think one last thing I would share.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:46.000Jason Bays: a lot of season passes in the market right now, um, the triple ticket’s a great opportunity for people to get a couple of days at Camelback, even if they’ve committed somewhere else, and particularly, you know, our long season, um, there’s plenty of time to use it, um, as well, uh, from the, uh, long season that we established from last year.00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000Stuart Winchester: Jason, I think that’s a really smart way to look at it as…00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.000Stuart Winchester: a… creating a habit rather than pulling as much yield as possible. And a lot of the larger operators.00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: get frustrated with me and the rest of the ski media because they don’t understand why we focus on that peak price, right? Because the peak lift ticket this year at Beaver Creek is $392, set to be. Probably almost no one will pay that price, but…00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:28.000Stuart Winchester: What it does is it acts as a, a billboard for the rest of the ski industry and especially so, so Camelback for, for people who don’t know when you’re driving on I 80 I mean, you see it, it looms right over the highway. It is one of the major interstates in America, especially at night. The thing is lit up.00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:46.000Stuart Winchester: And so, chances are, if people think about skiing, and they think about where to go, they’re gonna think about the most obvious one, and that’s Camelback, and that’s why, for many years, it was that, or Seven Springs was the busiest ski area in Pennsylvania, traditionally. So I think that’s a really smart way to look at it, because if people show up that one time, and.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: cost them, you know, $500 for 2 people, they’re just not gonna come back, and they’re not gonna try Shawnee, or… or Blue Mountain, or Jack Frost, or Elk Mountain, or Montage. So, um, I wanna talk about… Jason, I wanna talk about Lyft.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:16.000Stuart Winchester: And… can you see this trail map? This is an old trail map. I mentioned that I know this, so for those watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube, you can see this. So there’s been a ton of changes, and I want to break all these down with you. The first I want to talk about is, over the past couple years.00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mark Antony and Cleopatra, these two lifts right here, an old triple and an old double, have been removed. Can you talk about why you took those lifts out of service, and if you plan to replace them with anything, or what you planned, or what the rationale was behind it?00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:49.000Jason Bays: Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, that does predate my time here, that they had reached the end of their, um, uh, ability to operate. Um, and so they have, um, both been, um, sort of partially disassembled. Um, there is unfortunately not.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:36:49.000 --> 00:37:05.000Jason Bays: I, by the way, two of my favorite lifts when I was a ski instructor, because you could get right up and not wait in long lines on the weekends, so absolutely realizing and recognizing the capacity that they brought, but no opportunity for us to.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:23.000Jason Bays: um, reinstate those lifts as presently, um, as presently, uh, uh, sort of, um, situated, um, and, and not, not, not able to, uh, um, not able to, uh, rerun them. It will require a, um, new, uh, chairlift to, um, to ultimately replace.00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:37.000Jason Bays: those two lifts. It saddens me to share that, but that is, in fact, what has happened there, and I’ve been very open with our season pass holders about that messaging and the why behind it.00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.000Stuart Winchester: So, so in fantasy ski resort world, Jason.00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:46.000Stuart Winchester: Would you put a new lift here, and what would you put, if you could?00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:04.000Jason Bays: Yeah, absolutely. Um, same thing. We’ve, uh, we’ve made clear, uh, with no time, no official time frame to share, um, but certainly, uh, we’ve, we’ve, um, had, uh, preliminary conversations, um, about a fixed grip, um, quad that would, uh, would be able to take the place of both of those lifts, uh, and create that.00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.000Jason Bays: original redundancy that those two lifts brought to the resort when they were in operation.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that would be really nice. So, so, so these are gone and I, I have a, a current trail map now. So, um, and, and it’s not completely current. We’ll discuss the new trails in a moment, but this is the most current posted on your website. So, uh, we go over, these are the lifts that remain and see, uh, yeah, I, I miscounted in my intro, so sorry about that.00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:42.000Stuart Winchester: So this one is Stevenson, and Stevenson was, uh, it’s a high-speed quad, uh, for the listeners, and it… it was a real junker. It was always stop, stop, stop, and, you know, it was… it was really… seemed to be falling apart and have a lot of issues. Now, uh, in 2020…00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:51.000Stuart Winchester: 5, this year, or 2024, I believe, Camelback, uh, McCarthy, the GM at the time, sent out a letter saying it was due for a…00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.000Stuart Winchester: Waltz.00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:02.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, let me see what he said… like, a complete modernization of Stevenson. So, so did that happen? And talk to us about Stevenson, and what kind of shape it’s in right now.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:20.000Jason Bays: Yeah, great, um, yes, that was a, uh, look, an amazing, um, project that was completed by, uh, by Dave and team, um, to modernize that lift. Um, it has, essentially, Doppelmayr came in and put in an entire new, uh, minus the, uh, minus the, uh, uh, the terminals and the.00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:35.000Jason Bays: Um, uh, and the structure itself, um, essentially all new components, all new electrical, um, uh, wiring components to it, a lot of the things that had plagued it. Um, and last year, uh, it operated 138 days.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Unbelievable.00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:53.000Jason Bays: Uh, which for Pennsylvania, uh, that’s pretty darn good. I think we recognize it’s a workhorse, um, it’s key to accessing some really, um, fantastic terrain for us, um, and that modernization project with Doppel… in, um, partnership with Doppelmeyer that was done in the summer and fall of 2025.00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:08.000Jason Bays: um, was, uh, very, uh, so it’s all immediate impact, um, with, uh, Stevenson Reliability this past year, and we expect that to, uh, you know, knock on wood, to, uh, to continue going forward. We essentially, again, have a brand new lift, minus the, uh.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.000Jason Bays: Uh, minus the physical pieces.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:26.000Stuart Winchester: That’s a really smart way to do it because they are tremendously expensive, these new lifts. And for folks who are watching or listening, this Stevenson is really important because you walk out of this giant hotel that’s right here, that’s not on the trail map with 400 and some rooms, and that is how you get up the mountain. Otherwise you got to.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:41.000Stuart Winchester: pull your way over, so when that lift is not running or has problems, it’s a real big issue. So, the alternative was, over here, Black Bear 6, uh, you replaced an old high-speed quad that was there, and… and I love this Black Bear 6 lift. It is…00:40:41.000 --> 00:41:01.000Stuart Winchester: Freakin’ Ferrari, man. I think the price they gave me was something like $12 million that they spent, or maybe it was $10 to put that in. So that’s the alternative, right? If you don’t just modernize that current lift, you replace it. So, uh, Black Bear is awesome. I love it. It has bubbles. Is it too much? I mean, I know that KSL Now Peregrine had reasons for.00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:16.000Stuart Winchester: for putting it in, but what have you learned from a couple of years of having BlackBerry around, which is, again, probably the nicest lift in the state of Pennsylvania and one of the nicest in the Northeast, but maybe a little heavier than what you need for CamelBak, but I don’t know, you tell me.00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:41.000Jason Bays: Yeah, you know, you know what I would share to that, um, you know, we, we brought it back for scenic chairlift rides this summer, and I mean, it’s a massive hit. The summer, summer guests love, uh, the bubbles, they put them down when it’s sunny, they put them down, um, probably gets more use in the summer as a bubble lift than the winter, uh, but look, it’s, it’s nice to, uh, have on the days where, you know, there’s some liquid precipitation out here. It certainly happens in the Poconos.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm.00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:58.000Jason Bays: um, and, uh, and, and or, um, uh, you know, other, other weather events, it’s, it’s, it’s a nice to have, um, and it certainly, it gets you up in, you know, a little bit over two minutes. Um, it’s a smooth ride, it’s a great ride. Um, you are not going to get any complaints from me that we have a, um.00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.000Jason Bays: bubble, D-line, six-pack, um, in place, uh, and able to operate as our main workhorse lift. Um, and, uh, I think the six-pack versus the quad was absolutely the right, uh, call. Um…00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:27.000Jason Bays: from my experience being here before with the Sullivan Express, um, with the four-seater, the six-seater, just the… the added, uh, ability, uh, there is, uh, is… is well worth it. So, uh, we’re happy to have that… happy to have that lift. I… I wouldn’t, uh… I wouldn’t…00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000Jason Bays: We won’t be trading it in at this point. Let’s put it that way.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: It is a gorgeous machine, and I have to tell you, I’m that weird person who, if there’s a line on one lift.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And no line on the lift next to it. Even if it’s a slower lift, I’ll take the slower lift, because I just would rather not deal with the hassle of the line. So right here, for those who are watching, is the Bailey Double, and this is an old chair lift. It’s an old slow double, it runs almost exactly parallel to Black Bear 6, doesn’t land quite as high.00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:16.000Stuart Winchester: on the mountain, but functionally, it does about the same thing for you. So I like Bailey, and I was glad to see that not only did you keep it, and it does run, and that was true even under the previous regime, but you got a new gearbox for it, which is a really big deal for a lift like this in several decades. Also, talk about the work you’ve done on Bailey, and how you hope to use that lift.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000Stuart Winchester: this year to complement Black Bear.00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so, um, Bailey Lift…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:32.000Jason Bays: full disclosure, Bailey Lift, Meadows Lift, Raceway Lift, and our season pass holders are very aware of this. Um, unfortunately, uh, we’re not, um…00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:41.000Jason Bays: ready for day one of last year, um, or even close. And so, uh, we had to do a lot of, um…00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:57.000Jason Bays: normal PM maintenance, um, throughout the, um, end of fall and into winter to have all of them operational. Um, what I share to that is, um, we will run, just level set here really quickly, we will run all the lifts that we have on this trail map.00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:02.000Jason Bays: Um, and take care of them, maintain them, operate them.00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Jason Bays: Staff them, everything that you would do to run the extra capacity, we certainly need it. We’d like more capacity, actually. So that being said, Bailey Lift is critical. We got it back online.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:34.000Jason Bays: End of January, it ran for 2 or 3 weekends, and we had a failed gearbox, um, on it, which is really unfortunate. Um, this off-season, uh, we’ve replaced the gearbox, we’ve done a full PM over the course of the summer on it, which is…00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:50.000Jason Bays: the, as you, as everyone knows, the ideal time, uh, to be, um, conducting such work, um, so that it is ready on, uh, day one. Um, it is a critical backup lift. We will run it every weekend.00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:07.000Jason Bays: Um, that we’re, you know, in season, I would say in the heart of season, we’re gonna run it. Won’t be shy to not run it. Um, same thing with the Meadows, same thing with the Glen, same thing with the Raceway, which, um, you know, I know that that was, um, certainly chief among the complaints of.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:22.000Jason Bays: locals and guests who were visiting from out of town alike was Lyft availability, Lyft reliability. That was something that we focused as fast as we could on last year, but we’re setting ourselves up this year to be.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:39.000Jason Bays: um, very proactive to that, and recognizing the importance of, of each of, uh, uh, you know, each of these. And look, every once in a while, uh, if the, you always want to have, like, Bailey is critical because it’s the only other, if there’s Black Bear, without Black Bear, it’s the only other thing left, right?00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:55.000Jason Bays: Um, and so, uh, you know, I think the, you know, back in the, when I was here, like, every Lyft ran on the weekends. It was Camelback. Um, it was busy, right? Like, everything was going. That’s, that’s essentially our, our, our philosophy, um, will continue to be our philosophy going forward.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jason, I’ll admit, I didn’t come to Camelback last season, so I wasn’t able to experience it firsthand. I really wanted to come to your May thing, which I’ll talk about, I’ll get to in a minute, but I had a shoulder surgery, so I wasn’t able to do that. But I wasn’t only basing my perceptions of C.00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: on locals’ reactions. I had skied there myself in recent years, and the lift line management, I have to say.00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: It was…00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:33.000Stuart Winchester: really frustrating from a skier point of view, when you’re waiting for the Stevenson lift, and there’s a big line, and every chair is going up with one or two people, and this is not peak COVID or anything else, this is several years later.00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:50.000Stuart Winchester: So, you know, and I had a lot of locals tell me, oh, we walk up Sun Bowl because the lift line is just too chaotic. People come from both sides. No, no, again, that was all before. What’s your philosophy of lift line management? How have you tried to tame that? And there’s always, it’s always going to be a little wild and hard in Pennsylvan.00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:56.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but they could definitely have been managed better. Is that something that was important to you, that you focused on?00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:15.000Jason Bays: Yeah, we focused on that. We have a new lift operations manager that was hired in November of 2025, who took the bull by the horns. We developed a supervisor team in fairly short order to that as well, to build out a well-rounded team. And then I would just share that our lift attendants.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Jason Bays: All hired locally within the community. And I think that we were fully staffed in LiftOps this year, which was a big, very big win. It starts there, right? A, the people, and then B, the right people.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:49.000Jason Bays: um, on the, uh, on the bus, um, as a catalyst to drive, uh, lift operations forward. Um, and then absolutely, uh, we focused on, uh, line management, queuing, um, we set new, in some cases, new queues. We had, um, uh, supervisors, in many cases, out.00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:04.000Jason Bays: um, putting up chairs, um, and, um, and managing the lift line. We added, once we got that right, and we felt like we were in a good spot, and we, you know, look, I think, admittedly, a couple technology hiccups here and there, it was not a perfect, uh.00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:17.000Jason Bays: we didn’t, like, on opening day, it wasn’t perfect, but, uh, we improved, it was a big focus for our team, and I think when we talk about fundamental ski operation, um, if we just were a ski area, we would absolutely be focusing on.00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:36.000Jason Bays: lift queuing, but we have to do that, like, we have to execute that every day because we are a ski area, um, and that’s core to our business, and so that’s important. Um, then we added, once we got queuing, uh, uh, correct, we added surprise and delights. Lift, uh, chocolate chip cookies were massively popular.00:48:36.000 --> 00:49:04.000Jason Bays: We handed out over 15,000 chocolate chip cookies this winter at the Stevenson lift line. And so, you know, then it becomes fun, right? Then it’s the hospitality side of the business of how do we engage with our guests now that we have full chairs going up for the most part off of the Stevenson and the Black Bear and the Sun Bowl. So we hired extra associates to do that, to surprise and delight, to help our guests.00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Cool.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:20.000Jason Bays: The one other thing I would just share is Sunbowl is a great example. How many people get down to the Sunbowl and have never ridden a lift before? And so you need that extra human touch to be able to help. It’s not even just putting people in groups of four. It’s just helping them with like, here’s where you go to load the lift. Here’s what you do.00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:33.000Jason Bays: Um, I think that that investment in our people to provide that service to our guests is very well worth it, and it’s the difference between someone having a bad experience getting on a lift and never coming back.00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:43.000Jason Bays: or having a great experience, feeling well cared for, and wanting to try again. Um, and so that, that, that was, um, you know, I think that’s a core, um, focus for us.00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:02.000Stuart Winchester: So, one of the ways that I can tell the resort is being run by a skier, in addition to all the things you just said, and your passion for the minutiae of things like lift lines, which I share, is that you’re cutting 3 new trails in a resort that’s 60 years old, and I love that. So, talk us through these trails, Jason. I’ll do my best to trace them.00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:08.000Stuart Winchester: on the trail map. I don’t have the updated trail map, I don’t know if you’ve created it yet, but talk us through these three trails.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:25.000Jason Bays: Yeah, so we’re really excited. Look, this, you know, came after, you know, the so many guests, new guests that visited us at Camelback this past season. We said, you know what, let’s do something fun and exciting. And like, you know, you think about how.00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:43.000Jason Bays: Um, yeah, I just, you know, if someone said, anyone puts in a new trail, uh, the skier in me wants to drive to that resort, no matter how big or small, and be like, alright, like, let’s do it. Um, and our team feels, uh, you know, much of the same way. So, um, that being said, uh, we had a lot of natural snowfall this year, so…00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, sure. Yeah.00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:59.000Jason Bays: I was acutely paying attention to where people were skiing when we had natural snowfall, where they wanted to go, and then, you know, maybe following those lines, too, and seeing what the fun was about. So, my point to all of that is, we said, let’s create some, and I think for Camelback, too.00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:15.000Jason Bays: it’s very, um, you know, we wanted to create something that was sort of unique. I didn’t want to just put in, like, regular trails that, A, we don’t have a lot of space for regular trails, and B, um, we really wanted to create sort of unique experience. So, right underneath Black Bear, um, in between Sullivan and John Bailey there.00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:30.000Jason Bays: um, there’s a, um, there’s a chute, um, where the old Alpine Slide used to go. Basculus goes back into Rocket, uh, but underneath there is some really fun rolling terrain. Like, it’s, it’s because the mountain, the, uh, Alpine Slide.00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:54.000Jason Bays: back in the day did had several dips and curves and so we’re going to lean into those dips and curves and create something sort of fun that you can get some you know launch some airtime off of if you want or carve a turn over it but it’ll have some some really nice terrain variation in a way that most trails at Camelback don’t have and they’re coming off of an expert trail there so.00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:06.000Jason Bays: um, gives, uh, you know, anyone skiing Asp, Hump, Rocket, um, or Basilisk would be able to reach that trail, um, and, uh, and be able to, uh, just have a little bit more excitement on the way back down.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.000Jason Bays: Um…00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:20.000Jason Bays: Upper Cleopatra there, if you go to the, uh, where the U is, uh, or where Upper is, we’re gonna cut a trail through the woods there that’s going to end up on the bottom of Big Pocono.00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:31.000Jason Bays: Um, so it’s gonna go down and across. So, um, that… um, and I see where your cursor is. If you go to the… where it says Upper on Upper Cleopatra.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, like, here? Or…00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, upper…00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:54.000Jason Bays: So, Big Pocono, that’s Uncle B. Yeah, right there. Yep, we’re going through there. Yeah, so that’s gonna be, that’s a narrow blue square. So, you know, I think one of the things that’s fun for us is we’re gonna create a blue square there. That used to be a trail back in the 60s and 70s, fun fact, when Walter Foger was designing Camelback.00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: Upper… oh, this one. Okay, so you’re cutting through here?00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:39.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool. Okay.00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:09.000Jason Bays: Um, that being said, um, the… actually, it got filled in with pine trees, so it’s gonna be really cool, because there’s pine trees on both sides. Um, we made it narrow, so we kept the pine trees, um, and so that’s gonna be a really fun, um, sort of narrow… I think about, like, the, um.00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: That’s cool. It’s pretty.00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:26.000Jason Bays: the ending of Jay Peak with some of the blues at the very bottom there by Interstate. We’re trying to sort of have that, obviously in a much smaller zone, have that same effect, though, where you’re feeling like you’re really in the trees, and you’ve got some nice twists and turns to it. It’s not terribly steep.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, okay.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:44.000Jason Bays: Um, two things on that trail. One is, it takes traffic off of Honeymoon Lane, which is a main boulevard, it pushes it onto the Sphinx, which has much more trail capacity, which is great, um, comfortable carrying capacity, and secondarily, um, on weekends, we’re gonna have a hot chocolate, um, hut that people can ski up to.00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:52.000Jason Bays: Um, and get shots of hot chocolate, um, as well, so we’re excited to, um, uh, to offer that to our guests. We think that’ll be really fun.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: That’s cool.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: That was awesome.00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:17.000Jason Bays: And then the Stevenson, it’s going to drop on the cliffhanger side and drop down that lift line and go right down into the Faroe there and follow that lift line. Vermont skiing in a very short array but very much Vermont skiing, that’s an intimidating drop. Stevenson for those that may not be familiar has a extremely.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.000Stuart Winchester: And it.00:53:58.000 --> 00:53:59.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:34.000Jason Bays: extremely tight, um, and high, uh, crest of the lift, because the mountain crests, um, really steeply. Well, we’re gonna ski that, um, and, uh, and make snow on it, and, uh, and, and, uh, and allow our guests to, uh, um, and allow skiers to, uh, to, to, to test, um, you know, a more narrow.00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:44.000Jason Bays: um, uh, trail up there that has a really great expansive view over the Pocono Mountains, too. So, uh, that’s gonna be a really neat, uh, offering for us.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:59.000Stuart Winchester: Those sound really awesome, Jason. And this cliffhanger run, yeah, it’s got a great pitch. And then this little nine mile over here, this is one of my favorite ones to do with kids because it really does feel like it goes on for a long, long time. And it seems to get a nice vert there. So exciting.00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: for those new trails. Uh, Jason, I… I already kept you way longer than I said. I want to walk off on this.00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:12.000Stuart Winchester: Camelback closed, and I can’t actually believe that I’m saying this, Camelback closed for skiing on May 5th.00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:09.000Jason Bays: Okay.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:12.000Jason Bays: Okay.00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.000Stuart Winchester: How did you do that?00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:19.000Stuart Winchester: Why did you do that and are you going to do it again?00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:30.000Jason Bays: So, um, you know, in February is when, you know, we said, look, we’re having a really good, we’re having a really good, you know, the North, the Mid-Atlantic had a great season, um, a lot of snowpack, which was great.00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:29.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:36.000Jason Bays: Um, we were eager to… I wanted to test this hypothesis since I was.00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:44.000Jason Bays: 9, maybe 8 years old, um, and I first heard about Killington staying open late, I wanted to test this hypothesis at Camelback.00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:51.000Jason Bays: Um, unfortunately, when I was a 16-year-old ski instructor, um, no one really wanted to hear my hypothesis or business plan.00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:12.000Jason Bays: Um, and, uh, when I came back for a short time, it was to open up Aquatopia, um, and Camelback Lodge. No one wanted to hear it then either. Uh, but, um, there was no, uh, when I was the decision maker, well, then of course we were gonna do it. Um, no, um, our team really, um, I think we were really, um, excited to, um, build on the momentum of the season.00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:52.000Stuart Winchester: Thank you.00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:07.000Stuart Winchester: It’s amazing.00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:27.000Jason Bays: Um, and we announced it in February, um, that we were going to stay open as long as we can. We were going to try and make it to May. Um, if you go back to our social posts during that time, uh, you would see that it was actually received really poorly. We kind of all looked at each other in the room and were like.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:44.000Jason Bays: People are like, we’re going to take screenshots of this. Good luck. They have no idea what they’re doing. And the awesome part was we had no idea what we were doing. And so we have this dream.00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:35.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:56:44.000 --> 00:57:01.000Jason Bays: Um, let’s do it. But in all seriousness, Cliffhanger’s a really wide trail. We knew that we could get to about a 20-foot to 25-foot base, um, on it. Um, and we did. We got it to about, to average base depth, 25 feet. Um, we did some snow calculations on snowmelt, if we had a normal.00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:17.000Jason Bays: normal year, uh, where we could get to, how long we could do it. And, um, we also, um, we actually made so much so on Cliffhanger, and it was successful, that we pulled out this other thought of, well, we’ve got a little bit of extra time, it’s cold, let’s do Nile Mile 2.00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:34.000Jason Bays: Um, and we actually blew about 10 feet, 10 to 12 feet average depth on Nile Mile, which you pointed out, it’s a long trail, it’s not an easy, easy thing to do. Um, we actually made Nile Mile go until about end of April as, as well. I think it was the second to last week of April that it, um, that it made it to, so…00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah?00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:51.000Jason Bays: Uh, but here was the thought. Um, A, um, that we had the longest ski season in Pennsylvania, that we could, um, realistically cross-market everything else that we offer here. I mean, we had people… I didn’t know that this would happen, but we… it’s easy to say now, but.00:57:51.000 --> 00:58:15.000Jason Bays: We had people driving from Pittsburgh and from Maryland and Virginia. I met someone from Nashville, Tennessee who drove up for the day. I was like, did you get a hotel room? They’re like, no, I’m driving back. I’m like, all right, well, we didn’t sell a hotel room, but this is great. Like, nice to meet you. Maybe next time we will. But so many people came out and experienced Camelback.00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:02.000Stuart Winchester: Wow.00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:32.000Jason Bays: um, got to see what we offer, and got to do Aquatopia at the same time, like, and we’re like, oh my gosh, this Flowrider thing is really cool! Um, I got to learn to surf, and I got to learn to, you know, and I got to ski in the same day, this is really neat. Um, and it just became a vibe for our locals and our local community.00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:48.000Jason Bays: that they were out there, like, tailgate party, and, like, there’s… and just, like, uh, everyone just sort of came together as a community in the parking lot, and had a lot of fun. Um, so it was a blast, and we were really glad that we didn’t miscalculate.00:58:48.000 --> 00:59:06.000Jason Bays: Uh, snowmelt. Because it also is a risk of, you know, could this be pulled off? We are absolutely going to do it again next season. Uh, we’ve got notes on where we need to make more snow, where it melted faster than we thought, where we’ve got to build up higher than what we did.00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:21.000Jason Bays: Um, and we’re going to do it again next year and roll it back, and maybe even some more surprises, um, along the way. We wouldn’t miss it. Um, that was, I think, one of the most exciting parts of the season was to have that long season.00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:28.000Jason Bays: And we want to be known for that going forward. It’s part of our brand now.00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:44.000Stuart Winchester: So let me put all this together. So you roll up in the spring, you’re not paying for parking, so you tailgate for free. Your season pass is going to be $200 cheaper than it was in previous years, and your season is about four to five weeks longer.00:59:44.000 --> 01:00:01.000Stuart Winchester: I think that’s gonna be a popular move. Glad to be here. I think you’re doing an awesome job, Jason. Thank you. I know I said this would only be a half hour, but this was a really important one, and one I got a lot of feedback on, so I really appreciate you sticking with me here. And I’m gonna come make some turns with you, because I gotta see this for myself, and I’m right around the corner, so I have no.01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:05.000Jason Bays: Yeah, that’d be great, Stuart. Can’t wait to see you out here.01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:08.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, sounds good. I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks so much. Alright, bye.01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.000Jason Bays: Thank you. Take care. Bye.01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:24.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Jason Bayes, VP and General Manager of Camelback, Pennsylvania. Let’s do some quick reader reaction, and then we will get out of here.01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:29.000Stuart Winchester: To the post from yesterday.01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:31.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:37.000Stuart Winchester: Get this up here. I had it up, but my window’s getting squeezed shut here.01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:40.000Stuart Winchester: I… let me just refresh it, just in case, uh…01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:43.000Stuart Winchester: If there’s any new ones…01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:55.000Stuart Winchester: So again, I don’t know where people are leaving the comments, but I’m reading the ones from the previous day’s podcast, which was with Monarch General Manager Chris Haggerty.01:00:55.000 --> 01:01:12.000Stuart Winchester: Jay Ring says, Hey Stu, love the pod. Just wanted to advise of a new lift install just announced in New York. Holiday Valley will install their fifth high speed lift to replace Cindy’s quad in 2027 to 28, along with a new alignment on Foxfire. Uh, yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. Holiday Valley.01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:22.000Stuart Winchester: is the class of ski areas, uh, not just in the East, it’s, I think, one of the best-run ski areas anywhere in the country. So, they aggressively replaced their lifts.01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:33.000Stuart Winchester: about once every 20 years, and I’m trying to get Dennis Eshbaugh, the president, over there to come on the pod to talk about the new Cindy’s lift, so thanks for flagging that for us. Steven Rapp, long time…01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:44.000Stuart Winchester: subscriber, uh, that I’ve had a dialogue with, says, Hi Stuart, thank you for all you do to cover the lift-served ski industry. I think I have a list a mile long based on your pods of places I want to ski.01:01:44.000 --> 01:02:00.000Stuart Winchester: I very much enjoy listening and learning about ski areas in all regions. Yes, even the Midwest as they remind me of the small areas in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Last thing and most important, I’m enjoying how you are continuing to change and evolve the storm. I very much enjoy this new format and the frequency.01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:15.000Stuart Winchester: It’s been fun to ride along with you. Thanks, Snow. Thanks, Steve. I really appreciate that. Very nice sentiments there. Todd Reich says, I will now have to check out Monarch simply for the natural factor. What he’s referring to is Monarch makes no snow. We discussed that yesterday with Chris Haggard.01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:27.000Stuart Winchester: listen to that podcast. Uh, while, uh, Todd continues, while snowmaking is important for a lot of resorts to survive, as a Wisconsin skier, I spend much of my time at the Porkies and Mount Bohemia for that reason.01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:44.000Stuart Winchester: I hope they hold out as long as possible, relying on Mother Nature’s provisions. There is a difference. Yeah, I totally agree, Todd, and I’m glad we still have some natural snow ski areas. I think if Monarch were to do snowmaking, if you look at their master plan, it’s not terribly extensive. It’s sort of a…01:02:44.000 --> 01:03:02.000Stuart Winchester: a backbone move, and… and really, the model for this, I think, would be Alta, which obviously gets tons of snow, and… and more natural than… it gets twice what Monarch gets, uh, and its base is quite high. But they do it just at the base area, they do it just to pad things out, because it’s also a very busy ski area.01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:12.000Stuart Winchester: you know, half a million skier visits a year, Alta is. So, you know, as Monarch gets busier and the snow gets tracked down the mountain, I would see them using it as sort of a…01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:30.000Stuart Winchester: you know, they’re not gonna blow it in the trees. They’re not gonna blow it, uh, everywhere. It’s gonna be just those main artery runs. Uh, and finally, Joseph Ohl says, you’ve talked about national pass saturation maturation, but both Detroit and Grand Rapids are still severely underserved by national ski passes.01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:48.000Stuart Winchester: Although Vail has Mount Brighton that only serves the western suburbs and Ann Arbor, which represent just a tiny portion of the 4.5 million Detroit metro area, throw in the 1.2 million person Greater Grand Rapids area without an affiliated major pass, and it doesn’t take long to recognize that there are a lot of.01:03:48.000 --> 01:04:03.000Stuart Winchester: underserved skiers. Making this underrepresentation even more unfortunate is the fact that Wisconsin Resorts LLC sells their astonishingly unreasonable season pass for $750. Please, someone take notice of our plight. Joseph, I am taking notice of your plight.01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:20.000Stuart Winchester: So Wisconsin Resorts that Joseph is referring to, uh, owns… it’s called Wisconsin Resorts, but four of their six ski areas are in Michigan. They own Alpine Valley, Michigan, Pine Knob, Michigan, Mount Holly, Michigan, and Bittersweet, Michigan. Those first three serve Metro Detroit on the norther.01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:32.000Stuart Winchester: Grand Rapids on the western end. They also own Alpine Valley in Wisconsin, so they own two Alpine Valleys. Uh, and they also own Searchmont, one of my favorite ski areas up in Ontario.01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:36.000Stuart Winchester: And Wisconsin resorts, I have to tell you, Joseph, they’re a black hole.01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:50.000Stuart Winchester: I have contacts at pretty much every ski area and every ski company across the United States, but Wisconsin resorts, they’re a ghost. They have no presence. I’ve never been able to reach anyone over there. I do talk to people who work there, but not anyone who.01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:54.000Stuart Winchester: is in charge of building, which is unfortunate, because.01:04:54.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: while I agree with you that their season pass price is high, and that’s $7.50 for all those… all those 6 mountains, I…01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:06.000Stuart Winchester: they do do a really nice job running their mountains. They’ll open in November, early November, when they can.01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:10.000Stuart Winchester: Um, they’ve built some of the shortest high-speed quads anywhere.01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:26.000Stuart Winchester: and they really invest in, like, bittersweet, they have two high-speed quads there, you know, it’s like 300 and some vertical feet, and they even moved one around that was pretty recently put in just to give folks a better experience. Now, that said, I have often thought.01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:40.000Stuart Winchester: that, number one, I’m not really sure how they were allowed to buy three of the four ski areas in Metro Detroit, because Vail owns Mount Brighton, and Wisconsin Resorts owns the other three. I think just no one was really paying attention. I think…01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:48.000Stuart Winchester: the Wisconsin Resorts would probably be a pretty good acquisition target for a Boyne or an Alterra.01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: who could then add them to the Icon Pass. Uh, you’re right, India is not represented.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:09.000Stuart Winchester: really at all in… in the southern part of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan. Swiss Valley left when… when Perfect North bought them. Uh, Canonsburg was actually on IndyPass for a little bit, and Doug Fish told me they removed Canonsburg for, uh.01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:22.000Stuart Winchester: quote, violation of past policy. I don’t really know what that means. But yeah, right now, it’s… it is a multi-mountain past desert. Uh, Mount Brighton is… you know, it’s nice, the Vail has that, and it’s nice if you live around the corner in Brighton, but it’s.01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it, it’s number four, in my opinion, in quality of the four Metro Detroit ski areas. So look, I hear you. Uh, may, maybe Wisconsin resorts will strike a deal with Indy Pass, uh, or, or maybe Icon Pass with their, with their bonus mountains program.01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:51.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, maybe we’ll see the snow pass move in there, but Wisconsin Resorts very much likes to be alone and isolated and by themselves. So, but thank you, Joseph. I always, I always love talking Michigan skiing, and a chance to rant about that a little bit is a lot of fun.01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:58.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, this podcast today was brought to you by my friends at Profile Search International.01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing, folks like Jason Bays, who’s turning around important ski areas like Camelback.01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:10.000Stuart Winchester: But, if you want to find one of these great leaders for yourself.01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:25.000Stuart Winchester: it’s going to be hard, because they already have a job. So, I want to introduce you to Profile Search International. They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:38.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:44.000Stuart Winchester: Profile searches offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team.01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:56.000Stuart Winchester: you can reach out to them directly at profilesearch.com, where you can find their email or phone, or send me a message, skiing at substack.com, and I will connect you directly with this expert team.01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:14.000Stuart Winchester: Well, that will be our show for today. Please, if you have not already, go to stormskiing.com and subscribe to the Storm Skiing Journal and podcast. That is the way to get not just the podcast content, but all the written content that I produce.01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:31.000Stuart Winchester: into your email box or the Substack app the moment I send it out. The best way to support The Storm and my mission of independent ski journalism is to upgrade to a paid subscription at stormskiing.com, which will give you the ability to interact with this podcast via the comments, and also all of the content.01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:36.000Stuart Winchester: below the paywall in my written pieces, which is about 80% of what I write.01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:51.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, you can also rep the storm with a shirt or other swag by going to stormskiing.myshopify.com. Please follow me on YouTube and Instagram. Until next time, which is scheduled to be tomorrow with the Meyer cousins who run Cabaret Peaks, Michigan.01:08:51.000 --> 01:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I will talk to you again very soon. Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Welcome to the Storm’s short-form, news-focused podcast. Don’t worry, I still write long-form newsletters. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm’s chat (also below). I’ll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Wednesday, Sept. 16.Transcript updateFollowing up on yesterday’s feedback, there are now two transcripts available for each podcast:* Substack’s transcript: This transcript is auto-generated when I upload the podcast file to Substack, which is the platform that hosts stormskiing.com. This one is cool because you can click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Click the “transcript” button above to access. * Zoom’s transcript: Zoom automatically generates this transcript as I record. It should be more or less identical to Substack’s transcript, but with names attached to each quote block. The downside of this transcript is that you can’t teleport to that point in the pod by clicking on the text block, as you can with Substack’s. Another downside: the timestamps are off, since I typically start recording prior to the start of the podcast. I’ll work on cleaning this up.So until the robots get smarter, we’re stuck with two different transcripts. Both are auto-generated, and I don’t proofread either one, as that would be the fastest way to make sure my quick-turnaround, up-to-date podcast turns into a slow-turnaround, out-of-date one. My hope is that Substack will soon hire or invent or weld from raw iron a robot that’s smart enough to know who’s speaking when. I’ll just keep following the robots around and using their hyper-intelligence until they decide to kill me.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Tuesday, September 15th, 2026, and I am very excited today to bring you a conversation with the General Manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado, Chris Haggerty. Now, I’ve never featured Monarch either on the long-form pod or on the short-form pod.00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:11.000Stuart Winchester: There’s never really a reason behind that, other than this is just kind of when it happened. If you run an area, a ski area anywhere in America, I do want to talk to you. I’ve just never had the opportunity to feature Monarch before, so we will talk about Monarch in just a little bit here.00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:27.000Stuart Winchester: Part of the reason why we’re talking about Monarch is because they were one of two Western Mountains to this year join Snow Operating’s Snow Pass. Now, the Snow Pass, if you missed the news, it works a lot like the Indy Pass or the Mountain Collective Pass, where you get two days each.00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:37.000Stuart Winchester: at a set number of ski areas. In this case, it’s planned to be 14 ski areas for the 2026-27 ski season. And…00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:45.000Stuart Winchester: That product went on sale last Tuesday. I had Snow Operating CEO Joe Heschen on the podcast to talk through it with us.00:10:45.000 --> 00:11:01.000Stuart Winchester: Couple days later, I got an email from Snow Operating saying, Hey, guess what? Our first round of Snow Operating and Snow Triple Play, which are two different products, and I’ll explain the difference in a moment, sold out. So we’re taking it off sale. We’re putting it back on sale next Monday, September 21st.00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:13.000Stuart Winchester: at 10 a.m. Eastern. It will be $349.99 for Snowpass, and $184.99 for Snow Triple Play. Still a pretty good deal. Those products at full price.00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:24.000Stuart Winchester: the prices that Snow Partners gave me, and they anticipate selling both products through Christmas Eve, December 24th, just like they did last year with the first season of the Triple Play.00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:40.000Stuart Winchester: They, the final prices they anticipate will be 3 99 99 for snow pass and 1 99 99 for snow triple play. So you get a nice little discount, particularly with the snow pass, $50 off if you buy it in the next round. So let’s talk a little bit about the snow pass because.00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: When this product debuted.00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:53.000Stuart Winchester: I… I’ve been saying for years, there’s 4 national ski passes, right? There’s obviously Epic and Icon, and those have some season pass unlimited tiers at certain mountains.00:11:53.000 --> 00:12:08.000Stuart Winchester: And a limited number of days at other partner mountains. And then you have Indian Mountain Collective, which essentially worked the same way, 2 days at each ski area that is on their roster. Uh, Mountain Collective is more expensive, tends to be your bigger, more high-end resorts, Snowbird, Jackson Hole.00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:23.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Sun Peaks up in Canada. And Indy tended to be the lesser-known ski areas, but still some really dynamite stuff there, and a lot more ski areas. Mountain Collective always has around 30, and Indy is more like 250, not counting their cross-country.00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:36.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas. So, I always thought there was probably room for a fifth national pass, but I wasn’t sure, and as time went on, and more and more mountains joined multi-mountain passes.00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:37.000Stuart Winchester: I…00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.000Stuart Winchester: I thought, okay, maybe there’s not room for a fifth national pass. Maybe everyone who’s…00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.000Stuart Winchester: who wants to join a pass has, because I know Indy, uh.00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:58.000Stuart Winchester: Now, I’m not saying they don’t have standards, but they’ll let just about anybody on the pass just to help them get that exposure and that national marketing. But Snow Operating, the outfit that owns Mountain Creek in New Jersey and the indoor big snow ski area in New Jersey, they launched.00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:15.000Stuart Winchester: their Snow Pass, and it’s a pretty good roster. Here, I’m gonna share my screen for those of you watching on video, and if you’re not watching on video, don’t worry, I’m gonna talk through it. So, here’s the Snow Triple Play East roster, and here’s the Snow Pass roster. Now, the Snow Pass has 14 ski areas on it.00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.000Stuart Winchester: And you get 2 days at each ski area.00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.000Stuart Winchester: The Snow Triple Play has…00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:27.000Stuart Winchester: 23 total ski areas on it, and you get 3 days total.00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: across all 23 ski areas. That’s why it’s so much less expensive. The most days you can use at any ski area is 2, so you can’t buy this as a 3-pack Force A Gore Mountain, alright? So, that’s the first important.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:59.000Stuart Winchester: distinction is that Snow Triple Play is a much more limited basket of days. You also don’t want to assume that they have the same roster. Just because something’s on Snow Pass doesn’t mean it’s on Snow Triple Play, and vice versa. Snow Triple Play right now has a pretty…00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:15.000Stuart Winchester: Big roster that I wish was on the, uh, Snow Pass, because it has Jiminy Peak in, uh, Massachusetts, and also Cranmore in New Hampshire, which is jointly owned. It has Platykill up in the New York Catskills.00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:30.000Stuart Winchester: It has all these summit ski areas around Quebec. It has Bromont, one of the great eastern townships ski areas. Uh, so that’s Snow Triple Play. Snow Triple Play does not have anything in the west. It’s all east. It’s all east coast, either eastern Canada or eastern New York.00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:45.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Snow Pass has… it’s a pretty interesting roster, and it’s a great roster for a very particular type of skier. Now, it does have two ski areas in the West, uh, Snow King, which has been controversial, I’m gonna set that aside, and Monarch, which we’ll talk about in a moment.00:14:45.000 --> 00:15:00.000Stuart Winchester: The core of the Snow Pass, and the reason why it makes sense, is because of the south to north line of ski areas that it offers. So if you buy the Snow Pass, again, goes back on sale for $349.99 next Monday, September 21st.00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.000Stuart Winchester: You would get two days each at Bel Air, which is in New York’s Catskills.00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: Gore.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: higher up in the Adirondacks, and Whiteface, which are all owned and run and operated by the state, all fantastic ski areas. So it’s 2 days at each of those, that alone would be worth $350.00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:33.000Stuart Winchester: Then you add in the fact that you get two days at Mountain Creek, which is right there in New Jersey, uh, two days at the indoor snow dome, big snow American dream. Uh, if you have kids, two days at Butternut and two days at Mount Southington in Connecticut. Uh, Butternut is in Massachusetts. They’re both day drive distance from New York City.00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:42.000Stuart Winchester: Let them wander around, let them explore. They’re both, uh, especially Butternut. It’s very up-to-date, very modern lifts, very, very well-run ski area. So…00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:45.000Stuart Winchester: You have a really great little, you know.00:15:46.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: 5, 6, 7 ski areas that really make sense. Now, Ski Martok doesn’t really make sense. It’s all the way up in the middle of nowhere in the, in the Atlantic provinces in, in Canada. Uh, and, and Pleasant Mountain makes less sense. It’s, it’s up in Maine and, uh, harder to get to from, from the folks who would likely buy this as.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:13.000Stuart Winchester: But what you have to ask yourself is, okay, the snow pass, that’s a pretty good deal, right? It’s $349.99 for 2 days each of 14 mountains. Then you look at Indy.00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.000Stuart Winchester: And Indy Pass is 254.00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:34.000Stuart Winchester: uh, alpine ski areas, and it just went off sale for $429 for the base pass. So, it would be 2 days each at all of these, and the… the plus pass, the ND plus pass, was $469. It had no blackouts. Now, the other thing to know about Snow Triple Play.00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:50.000Stuart Winchester: and snow passes, there are a lot of blackouts, okay? So, a lot of these are holidays, you probably expect that. Uh, you know, here I see Big Snow, Oak Mountain, Plattekill, a lot of holiday blackouts, Butternut holiday blackouts, Gore, uh, Bel Air. Bel Air, though, you want to stop.00:16:50.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: Bel Air is blacked out every Saturday and Sunday. That’s a big deal, because when do you probably want to go to Bel Air if you’re someone skiing around with your little kids? Probably on a Saturday or Sunday. So, you want to be really careful and really look at these, uh, these blackout dates before you pull the trigger.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.000Stuart Winchester: on the snow pass. So…00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000Stuart Winchester: So if you have a snow pass, I I’m calling it.00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.000Stuart Winchester: A national pass, kind of, uh…00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: out of anticipation, right? It’s more of a, I think they’ll get there, sort of designation, because right now.00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:40.000Stuart Winchester: it’s not really a national pass, right? You have one small skier in Wyoming, one small skier in Colorado. Is someone who lives in New York’s metro really going to travel to Colorado just to ski that because they have a snow pass, right? Because it’s not cheap to get up to Colorado.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:56.000Stuart Winchester: And there’s a lot of much bigger mountains out there. So… so I think that Snow Pass, much like Indy did when it started in 2019, will grow into a national… a true national pass. Uh, for now, just based on the reputation of the operators, uh, the fact that I think that they will be able to grow this thing, the fact that I…00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:11.000Stuart Winchester: know their relationships with folks all around the country, and how much folks like working with them, I am assuming that this pass will grow up, and if it does, Monarch will be the OG Western partner. So, let’s talk more about Monarch now, and I’m gonna bring.00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: Chris Haggerty in.00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.000Stuart Winchester: And we will, uh… Chris, how you doing?00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000Chris Haggerty: I’m doing well today, Stuart. How are you?00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: I’m doing great. All right, you passed the sound check, so I’m going to give you an intro here. Joining us now is the general manager of Monarch Mountain, Colorado. Monarch has six chairlifts serving 1,017 acres of terrain, including the 377-acre no-name expansion that opened last winter.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:44.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch’s 10,727-foot base elevation is the third highest in American skiing.00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Prior to taking the top job at Monarch in 2024, he spent 21 years as general manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey. Chris Haggerty is my guest. Chris, welcome to The Storm. Awesome to connect with you. I’ve really been wanting to spotlight Monarch for a long time now, and I’m so hyped we get to.00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:10.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah. Thanks for having me, and I’m excited to be here and chat Monarch. It’s a special place, so excited to share some discussion about it.00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:23.000Stuart Winchester: So, the New Jersey to Colorado pipeline is maybe not necessarily a well-trod one, although there are a surprising amount of IntraWest vets working in the ski industry because of its relationship with IntraWest, but talk to us about…00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:40.000Stuart Winchester: Getting to Monarch, and you were taking over for Randy Stroud, super experienced guy, he was retiring, uh, he’d been there 23 years, a decade as GM, and he stayed on, I believe, for, for a year. So, talk to us about going from New Jersey, where they have a lot of snowmaking, because they have to.00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.000Chris Haggerty: Mmhm.00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:47.000Stuart Winchester: to Monarch, where they have no snowmaking, and just what that adjustment period was like, and how you settled into the role.00:19:48.000 --> 00:20:07.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, just a quick story is that, you know, as you mentioned, I was at Mountain Creek for a long time, and, you know, really where I found my love for the ski industry, and after college, I had taken a trip out to Colorado and got my first taste of, like.00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.000Chris Haggerty: the Rockies, right? So it’s always been something in the back of my mind. Um…00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:28.000Chris Haggerty: And I ended up stumbling upon Monarch. I hadn’t been to Monarch before, and I was like, oh, this place looks pretty cool. It definitely screamed the ski independent. I definitely wanted to.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:50.000Chris Haggerty: you know, if I was going to relocate, wanted to find an area where the resort and the local community both had that kind of just feeling of community and stuff. So a monarch was it. And I was blessed to step in after Randy Stroud, and we shared a season together. So I got to learn a lot of institutional knowledge from him.00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, but also bring my viewpoints coming from New Jersey in an area where, you know, we’re not…00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:15.000Chris Haggerty: maybe blessed with natural snow. Um, so last year was, like, a challenging winter, and, um, I was ready for it, because I was like, man, 120 inches, like, if you gave me that in New Jersey, we’d be celebrating for years, right? So, um, you know, just kind of a unique perspective, but…00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.000Chris Haggerty: um, definitely happy to be here, and just pumped to keep the Monarch kind of spirit going forward.00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:37.000Stuart Winchester: So you’ve been there for a couple years, one full year as GM, and one of the… there’s been tons of stuff coming out of Monarch, it’s amazing for a small ski area, which is why I wanted to get you on. So you recently joined the Snow Pass, one of two Western partners to join the Snow Pass, which gives pass holders.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:54.000Stuart Winchester: Two days at Monarch. I don’t think there’s blackouts on that, but correct me if I’m wrong now. Now, Multimon Pass has been around for years and almost everybody in Colorado is on either Epic or Icon if they’re large and if they’re small, a lot of them have joined Indy. So the option has been there for years.00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:00.000Stuart Winchester: Why was it finally time for Monarch to join a multi-mountain pass, and why the snow pass?00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:15.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, two parts there. I think on the, I mentioned it before, we’re ski independent as our tagline, right? Part of independence is like the definition is freedom.00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.000Chris Haggerty: Right? Like, you make your own choices. You do what you wanna do.00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:31.000Chris Haggerty: we’ve been approached in the past for IndyPass, and, you know, it wasn’t right for us because it kind of went against our spirit of being independent. Like, we want to be able to work with who we…00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:43.000Chris Haggerty: who we choose at any given moment, um, and that just isn’t something that, um, is available through the Unipass, so… so we’ve passed on that. Um, we were even approached about it this year. Um…00:22:43.000 --> 00:23:00.000Chris Haggerty: As far as Snowpass goes, they respect that. They’re all about, hey, you want to work with XYZ Pass, go for it. And obviously, I’ve spent some time working with the Snow Partners group.00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000Chris Haggerty: You know, from my perspective, that group is all about, um…00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:17.000Chris Haggerty: you know, rising tides lifts all boats, right? And, um, you know, for me personally, they’ve opened doors for me, right? And helped me throughout growing in my career, so, um…00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.000Chris Haggerty: We’re down.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to share, because you’ve sort of created your own… I’m sharing my screen now, if you can see that, and hopefully the folks watching can as well, and if you’re listening, I’ll talk through it. So, Monarch has…00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:46.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you.00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:07.000Stuart Winchester: not joined a pass, necessarily, but you’ve kind of built your own pass, and what I have on the screen right now is a list of Monarch’s reciprocals, and it’s a pretty amazing pass all in and of itself, so if you buy a Monarch season pass, which I believe now is, what, $6.59, less if you renew.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:24.000Stuart Winchester: It comes with a lot of reciprocal days. Some of the big ones that people probably are really attracted to, 3 days at A-Basin, 3 days at Copper. Now there’s blackouts on that, but still, it’s freaking Copper Mountain. Uh, 3 days at Purgatory. And then, uh, 3 days each at all of the Mountain Capital Partners-owned skiers, which Purgatory.00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.000Chris Haggerty: I’ll do that.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:39.000Stuart Winchester: Also, Arizona Snowball. And there’s a bunch more. I don’t want to list them all, given our time constraints here today. But talk about this reciprocal program, because essentially, you’re saying you’re going to give pass holders of all these mountains.00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:38.000Chris Haggerty: Sure.00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:46.000Stuart Winchester: free visits to Monarch in exchange for your pass holders getting free visits there, so…00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.000Chris Haggerty: Oh.00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yes.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:52.000Stuart Winchester: whatever you did or didn’t like about IndyPass, it does pay per visit, so what was attractive about.00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.000Chris Haggerty: Just a second.00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: this, and why did it make sense to do these free visit exchanges with other ski areas?00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:15.000Chris Haggerty: We look at it as other skiers are not our competition, right? There’s 350 million people roughly in the United States. Less than 5% actually ski or snowboard, right? So there’s a lot of people out there that just need to be introduced into the sport.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.000Chris Haggerty: Um…00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:23.000Chris Haggerty: rather than trying to fight for visits between resorts. So… so one of the things is just…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:39.000Chris Haggerty: How do we get more people skiing and snowboarding, which is obviously a huge conversation you could talk about forever. But with this one, it’s just like, hey, these are other resorts that are interested in also giving their pass holders as well as ours.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:10.000Chris Haggerty: allow our pass holders to try each out while still knowing that, like most people that have a copper pass, they’re not migrating to Monarch because they came here for two days.00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:28.000Chris Haggerty: they’re bought a Copper Pass for a reason, they love that, and they’re like, yeah, if I could get two days over at Monarch, cool. Same thing with our Monarch guests, like, they… they… they love Monarch, they want most of their days to be here, and if we could break it up for them, um, you know, a couple times a year, or they could go to A-Basin and Copper, then.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:37.000Chris Haggerty: That adds a lot of value to them and gives them that flexibility to move around and go where it works for them.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:52.000Stuart Winchester: You know, Monarch is small by Colorado standards, but it always surprised me to see that it actually does have a pseudo national following. And I get emails from people all over the country that say they buy the Monarch Pass because it gives them all those reciprocals and they come out and they like to support the small ski area.00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get your take on something here, Chris. I’m going to share my screen again, and I want to share a chart that I made.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:14.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, so, so this is a chart of Monarch’s skier visits since 1997, up to 2024 to 25, right? And I’ve compiled these from all kinds of different places, and I have a little bit of a gap there. But as you, as you see right here, they’ve been going steadily up, right?00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:29.000Stuart Winchester: So, so you were averaging below $200,000 for most of the, of the 2010s, you know, much lower some years, and now you’re pretty steadily adding, averaging over $200,000. Now, last year, I don’t have your numbers, I’m, I’m sure that they were, uh, pretty bad, but.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:33.000Stuart Winchester: You know, in relation to what your past numbers were.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.000Stuart Winchester: So here’s my question.00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:48.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch was supposed to be one of the ski areas that got squeezed out by Epic, squeezed out by Icon. That was one of the big worries. Uh, independent ski areas can’t compete. We’re seeing the opposite, because I’ve put some things on this timeline.00:27:48.000 --> 00:28:04.000Stuart Winchester: So, for example, 2007, IntraWest buys Steamboat. Uh, 2008, the Epic Pass launches. 2009, Powder buys Copper. Uh, the Mountain Collective launched in 2012. Uh, Mountain Capital Partners bought Purgatory in 2015. Powder bought Eldora the following year.00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:21.000Stuart Winchester: Uh In 2017, Alterra combined Steamboat and Winter Park in 2018, they launched the icon pass. Uh And then we had the 20% epic price cut in 2022. So all these things you think, ok, Vale and Alterra putting their mountains on sale. These are big world famous mountains, Steamboat Vale Mountain.00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.000Stuart Winchester: Monarch must be getting crushed. No, it’s not. Why?00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:45.000Chris Haggerty: I think it’s a couple of reasons. Number one is we’ve just stayed true to who we are. And as the population has grown in the front range, like since 2010, Denver and Colorado Springs have grown by about 20%.00:28:45.000 --> 00:29:00.000Chris Haggerty: Right? So there’s just more people, um, that are finding Monarch, and they’re, they’re like, wow, we like this, this is what we want. You know, you also throw in the fact that, um, I-70, for those in Colorado, are pretty familiar with, like, the traffic that is.00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:50.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:17.000Chris Haggerty: created there on the weekends and it’s not for everybody. So thankfully the drive to Monarch currently is a pretty attractive one, a lot less traffic. And I give credit to our ownership group, our current ownership group. They bought the resort in.00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:33.000Chris Haggerty: 2002. And part of it was, you know, a little bit of a passion project. Right? Like, they had come here and just really liked the vibe at Monarch and and wanted to protect that. And what they’ve been able to do is, number one, protect it.00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:53.000Chris Haggerty: Um, by not selling, you know, to, to one of the larger players, um, to just investing into our, our core, um, like deferred maintenance projects and those types of things, and then being really committed to the no name project, which we talked about and, and making sure timing was right on that and.00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:11.000Chris Haggerty: Um, that we were a healthy company before we jumped into that, so we didn’t need a lifeline from, you know, someone else. So, um, there’s kind of a lot of pieces that go into it. Um, and it’s also worth noting that, like, our pass holders, like, and I think this goes to the growth, like, once people find us.00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:25.000Chris Haggerty: Um, our pass holder, uh, renewal rate is about 85% every year. Um, and the industry standard, depending on where you, you know, who you ask, it’s somewhere between, like, 55% and 62%.00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:42.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and, and most of the 15% that we lose as we’ve dug into it is because of, uh, we have a lot of season pass holders from Fort Carson, um, military base outside of Colorado Springs, and they’ve just moved out of the area, right? So, um, I think our growth is partly due to, like.00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.000Chris Haggerty: Once people come here and they discover it and they love it and they just keep coming back and we’re just building upon that.00:30:49.000 --> 00:31:06.000Stuart Winchester: So you have owners that are willing to invest and that’s really important. And Randy Stroud, I interviewed him, not on the podcast, but just for an article a couple of years ago. And he told me, and I’m not sure if this ended up being true, but their intention was to pay for the entire no name expansion in cash, including a brand new SkyTrak.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:22.000Stuart Winchester: triple chair, or Doppelmayr, I can’t remember what it was offhand, but regardless, it spoke to a very stable operation. Now, meanwhile, you still have some pretty old lifts, some pretty old infrastructure on the front side of the mountain, and recently Monarch’s.00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:36.000Stuart Winchester: Master Development Plan was accepted by the U.S. Forest Service, which, for the listeners, just means that they said, okay, we’ll let you consider doing these things on a project-by-project basis in the future. I have a lot of questions about the Master Plan, but first.00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: I want to focus on one that you called out, that Monarch Mountain called out in its first blog post announcing acceptance of the Master Plan, and it was about snowmaking. And Dan Torsell, the longtime GM of Ski Cooper, told me a long time ago when he came on this pod that.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:04.000Stuart Winchester: that Ski Cooper and Monarch were the only big lift-surf ski areas in Colorado that don’t have snowmaking. I think Silverton is too, but that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. So, uh, you have it in your master development plan.00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: to a sort of rudimentary snowmaking system that would allow you to open early. But, this is a quote from your blog, quote, Before anyone panics when they read about snowmaking, let me assure you that Monarch is committed to remaining 100% all natural.00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:37.000Stuart Winchester: Snowmaking has been a part of our previous MDPs, Master Development Plan, and we have chosen not to implement it as we truly believe that natural snow provides the best skiing experience. This continues to be the case as snowmaking is in the plan to cover all bases, but we will not implement anything unless Mother Nature gives us no other choice.00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.000Stuart Winchester: Care to expand upon that at all?00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:53.000Chris Haggerty: Definitely. And yeah, and we are committed to that. And I actually, last summer, I spoke in front of some of the locals and pass holders, and when I let them know that we were committed to.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or elaborate.00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:09.000Chris Haggerty: 100% all natural. That was the loudest cheer we got all day. So, like, that’s what our, that’s what our guests want. That’s what we want. Um, as far that, you know, snowmaking has come a long way, and, and it is a necessity for a bunch of resorts.00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:19.000Chris Haggerty: Um, we’re not at that point, um, and we’re gonna push as far as we can, um, leaning into, like, snow farming and everything else before we ever, um.00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:35.000Chris Haggerty: have snow… have snowmaking. But, you know, in the Master Development Plan, it’s in there because, like, part of putting things into that document is because it’s a conceptual document. It’s, like, it’s designed to be a 15-year document. If it’s not in there.00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:51.000Chris Haggerty: The Forest Service really doesn’t even consider something. So if 15 years from now we’re like, we need to put snowmaking in and it’s not in there, we’d have some challenges. I will say our base elevation being basically 10,800 feet.00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:02.000Chris Haggerty: has helped us out, right? Like, as weather patterns has changed, and temperatures have rised, and winters are, you know, different every year, um…00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:13.000Chris Haggerty: we’ve been pretty lucky because of that base elevation, where we’re… we are seeing snow, where other resorts are seeing some of that other precipitation falling, right? So, um…00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:30.000Chris Haggerty: you know, and then I mentioned the snow farming, like, we’re… we’re gonna do everything we can, like, on that side of things, right? And that’s all the way from, like, fences strategically placed throughout the mountain, whether they’re permanent or temporary, to catch the snow when the winds are coming from whatever direction.00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:47.000Chris Haggerty: And we do early season, we take the snow in the parking lots and we plow it all up and get it into one of the corners and then our groomers take it from there and start to build our base in the base area. So we have some different techniques to try to insulate us as much as possible.00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:53.000Chris Haggerty: And we’re going to keep going that way as long as Mother Nature allows us to.00:34:53.000 --> 00:35:09.000Stuart Winchester: So snowmaking, it sounds like, is Monarch’s emergency parachute. Meanwhile, there are a lot of big chairlift upgrades outlined on the master development plan. So Monarch has had substantially the same footprint for decades until last season’s snowmaking upgrade.00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:24.000Stuart Winchester: And like I said before, more and more skier visits, and you were still running, with the exception of the 1999 Pioneer lift, the quad that was put in, with a lot of older double chairs. So Breezeway is a 1968 hall, Garfield is a 1969 hall, Panorama is a 1980 hall.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:40.000Stuart Winchester: Tumbling as a 1981 hall. Those are all doubles. Now they’ve all gotten new drive terminals. So I understand they’re, they’re more modern in their actual functioning than, than in their look. However, the capacity is probably not a whole lot more than maybe it would have been. The master development plan proposes.00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Replacing all of these with.00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:54.000Stuart Winchester: is advanced of a lift as a high-speed quad. Now, I realize you wanna… maybe the same reason as somebody… you say high-speed quad because you can always take it down, easier to go down than up, but talk us through…00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:05.000Stuart Winchester: your lift upgrade plan, and whether you think that high speed would be good for Monarch, or if you think that maybe fixed grip is the way you want to stay.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, fixed script is, you know.00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:24.000Chris Haggerty: Well, let me back up. A lot of that is in there because it’s got to be in there if we choose to do that. And with no name opening, there’s a lot of unknowns as far as, like, how is that going to change skier traffic around the mountain, right?00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:41.000Chris Haggerty: One of the things we worked with the SE group, so they’re, you know, a company that helps ski areas, right, with all sorts of development projects, big and small. And one of the things that they do is they do this density analysis, right? And it’s a complicated, you know.00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:57.000Chris Haggerty: Analysis that takes on a lot of different data, but basically it’s like they look at your uphill capacity based on the speed of the lift, the size of the lift, the length of the trip up, the time, and then what terrain it accesses from that lift.00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:14.000Chris Haggerty: And, like, an optimal score where, like, you have, like, perfect harmony from uphill and downhill is, like, a hundred percent. If you’re below that, you’re actually putting fewer people up the hill, that the downhill terrain can handle.00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:34.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, in our current state, sits at a 56%. So basically, like, when you ski the runs at Monarch, even on our busiest day, because of the capacity that we have at our lifts, like, you have, like, semi-private runs, right? If we were to do all of our lift upgrades in the 2025 MDP.00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:49.000Chris Haggerty: we would actually get to an 84% density analysis. So even still, you wouldn’t feel overcrowded on the runs. So knowing that, we’re like, wow, well, we don’t need to right away push for any kind of high speed lifts.00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:58.000Chris Haggerty: Um, and in fact, again, things that our guests like about them is twofold. Number one, it’s like…00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:11.000Chris Haggerty: that slow metering from a fixed grip lift just adds, like, this extra time, right? Like, part of why we ski and snowboard is because we like to just disconnect, right, from reality for a little while and, like, be out in nature and, like.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:21.000Chris Haggerty: you know, our guests like taking a step back and slowing things down here, and it feels like things are just moving a little slower. And second, one thing that we feel is like a…00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:36.000Chris Haggerty: a strong differentiator for us is, um, having a fixed grip lift. Our lift operators have to be at, like, the load point, and, um, you know, bumping the chairs and helping our guests on, and.00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000Chris Haggerty: It’s this, like, human interaction piece that, like.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:56.000Chris Haggerty: You don’t get everywhere else, especially with some of the newer lifts where, you know, it’s everything’s so automated, um, which has its value, but for us, again, with who Monarch is and taking that step back in time a little bit like that, that face-to-face interaction.00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:14.000Chris Haggerty: like, so many of our reviews are constantly calling out our lift operators, like, oh, yeah, I remember so-and-so, like, he’s awesome, he helped me on, or he just said hello, or he remembered what kind of skis I’m wearing, or told me about this secret powder stash, which… another benefit of a slower uphill capacity is, like.00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:23.000Chris Haggerty: Monarch, even though it’s smaller in size, doesn’t get tracked out. Like, you get powder turns at the end of the day on a powder day.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:34.000Stuart Winchester: So the, I’m gonna share my screen to, to talk about this next bit. So those are the lift upgrades that you’re proposing. There’s also two, and I’m, I, so for those watching.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:49.000Stuart Winchester: On YouTube or stormskiing.com, I have the master development plan, conceptual plan up. There’s also two infill lifts. Okay, so there would be this planned NNB lift, which is a redundant lift in the No Name Basin expansion. This is the new lift that opened last year. And then there’s this…00:39:49.000 --> 00:40:04.000Stuart Winchester: Plan, divide, express. So, again, it’s two more lifts on the same footprint. And I didn’t see in the master plan, maybe I missed it, that you do have all this cat skiing terrain over here, so…00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:10.000Stuart Winchester: So, talk us through the logic of putting in more lists to serve the same amount of terrain, and if you’ve considered.00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: moving lift surf skiing into the cat skiing, as Targi did with its peaked mountain expansion a couple of years ago.00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:37.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, so no name is actually was a part of our cat skiing terrain. So we did take a little bit of that. That redundant lift out there is just because we’ll see what happens, how many people just access the terrain and no name. And if we ever need a second lift there, then.00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.000Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:55.000Chris Haggerty: um, we’ll consider it. As far as further into cat skiing terrain, um, you know, our current MDP outlines our next 15 years, so we’re not looking to push any further into that. Um, we also have, um, the Mirkwood terrain, which is a little bit of a hike-to terrain.00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:04.000Chris Haggerty: Um, between, like, the front side and no name, and we get… that’s… that’s the area we most commonly get asked about a lift, and uh…00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.000Chris Haggerty: I will tell you from my, uh, initial conversations with owners, it’s… it’s not a, um…00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:27.000Chris Haggerty: the answer isn’t no, we’re not putting a lift there, it’s a expletive no, we’re not putting a lift there. Um, we take pride in having, like, being a small mountain, but still offering, like, all these other things, right? Which one being hike to terrain, um, which is pretty cool for…00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.000Chris Haggerty: a small mountain like this. And then that, um…00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:41.000Chris Haggerty: the Divide Express, right, that would get us all the way from the base area to the summit on the front side. Um, that… that is one that we’ve, you know, had some…00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:55.000Chris Haggerty: serious discussions about, and, um, you know, it probably… number one, it would just, you know, allow guests to not have to take two lifts to get to the… to the summit on the front side. Um, but also, if we…00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:06.000Chris Haggerty: explore, um, summer operations in the future. You know, having a high-speed, you know, detachable lift gives you more flexibility to do that.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:13.000Chris Haggerty: So that kind of, you know, would add into that if we get to that point.00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:24.000Stuart Winchester: So let me ask a stupid question, because that’s what I’m here for. So Garfield Lyft, as I said, was built in the 60s. Pioneer Lyft came along in 1999. So I would have thought, okay, they cross over each other.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:41.000Stuart Winchester: Because they, they retroactively built Pioneer and didn’t realize it. Uh, I would have thought, hey, the master plan is an opportunity to straighten those out so they don’t have to cross over each other. Maybe I’m overthinking it and it’s not that complicated, but, but talk about this interesting crisscross pattern you have here and, and why that’s where Garfield and Pioneer are slated.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.000Chris Haggerty: Mm-hmm.00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:45.000Stuart Winchester: to continue to exist, even if you were to upgrade their lifts.00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:05.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that I have the best answer. We do have a proposal to shift the base of the bottom terminal of Pioneer uphill a little bit, just because the terrain is a little more desirable there. And obviously, if we needed to add the Divide Express, we need to open that area up.00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.000Chris Haggerty: um…00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:21.000Chris Haggerty: but other than that, right, we just kind of… we like the terrain that they serve right now, we don’t really have a better spot, so the lifts crisscrossing wasn’t like a, oh man, we need to change this. It wasn’t something that we were focused on solving, um, in a way.00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.000Chris Haggerty: I think it’s kind of a little cool, I guess.00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:40.000Stuart Winchester: I do like criss-crossing lifts, so I’m glad we’re doing this one a video, because every time I bring this up, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Uh, Monarch skier visits have gone up and up, as we said. However, as they’ve gone up and up, there’s still nowhere to stay on the mountain. There never has been. Uh.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:51.000Stuart Winchester: a philosophical choice? Is that just a practical matter of, hey, the Forest Service owns the land at the base? Is it both? Talk us through why there’s nowhere to stay at Monarch as a drive ski area only.00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, there’s a couple of reasons.00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:02.000Chris Haggerty: And, you know, one of them, again, I’ll say our pass holders and our guests, like…00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:18.000Chris Haggerty: are pretty vocal about not wanting that, right? Like that’s what separates Monarch. We’re not that resort that has the big base village. And again, that’s not to knock those resorts. I think that that’s, you know, I’ve gone to those resorts as a guest. I think it’s awesome.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:38.000Chris Haggerty: I think another side of it for us is we’re really focused on our community, right? We’re a small mountain ski area and there’s a small mountain community 15 miles from where we are that has a really cool, the town of Salida has a really cool downtown, a main street.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:52.000Chris Haggerty: Um, with a ton of restaurants, a ton of mom-and-pop-owned shops, right? And, um, you know, we’re our largest, uh, driver for winter visits, and, and, you know, um…00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:01.000Chris Haggerty: in the wintertime, and we want to make sure we embrace that community. If we moved a village up onto the mountain, like.00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:16.000Chris Haggerty: Salida is going to suffer. All those guests now are going to stay in the lodging up at Monarch versus in town. And we want to be good community partners and be like, no, here, you guys should be the ones to have lodging. And we live.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:35.000Chris Haggerty: all of us live in the community as well, and we want to see those restaurants, you know, stay active all year round, the mom-and-pop shops, like, you know, thrive. So part of it is just, like, wanting to be a part of something bigger, right, in that larger community, rather than.00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.000Chris Haggerty: moving everything up to… to Monarch.00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:53.000Stuart Winchester: So if Snowpass skiers do decide to come out and visit Monarch, they’ll stay in Salida, most likely, and drive up that day. So leave us with this, Chris, because Joe Heschen, the CEO of Snow Partners.00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:58.000Stuart Winchester: Said we get so caught up on stats, but stats aren’t aren’t always the thing and and.00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:04.000Stuart Winchester: when you look statistically at Monarch, it’s 1,100 vertical feet.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:21.000Stuart Winchester: Lift serve drop. That’s 25th in Colorado. Uh, 1017 acres that ranks 17th in Colorado is bigger than Aspen Mountain. I’ll point, I’ll point out, uh, it’s 308 inch average annual snowfall is good, but it’s, it’s good for ninth best. It has the third highest base, as I said, but the 12th highest summ.00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:28.000Stuart Winchester: It has those older lifts in a state that has 120 high-speed lifts, and there’s nowhere to stay on the mountain, so…00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.000Stuart Winchester: I’m just stating those facts, right? So what’s your pitch to someone to come.00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.000Stuart Winchester: use that snow pass, and try out Monarch.00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:44.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, the big one is to start with, we’re 100% natural, right?00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:59.000Chris Haggerty: you want natural snow, it is a definitely a different feel, even as good as snowmaking is these days, like, come check it out. And this, and the second part is, um, the people that are at Monarch are a unique group, right? Like, we’re, we’re.00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:18.000Chris Haggerty: past the characters, whether you work here or you’re a guest here. And, um, we’re looking out for each other, right? Like, it’s not, um, it’s not judgmental, like, no matter what you show up wearing or what your ability is, like, we just want everyone here to have a fun day on the mountain.00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:37.000Chris Haggerty: whether you’re the extreme person out in the cat skiing terrain, hiking Mirkwood, the Never Ever, or the SnowTuber, which I love SnowTubers, you know, I think that’s who we all are at our core. Um, you know, it’s just… it’s just a cool vibe that you gotta just come check it out, and our track record’s saying that.00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.000Chris Haggerty: People love it once they find it. So give it a shot.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:51.000Stuart Winchester: I’m always telling my readers that these old lifts, these hauls, these riblets, they’re not gonna be around for a whole lot longer, right? There’s still hundreds in operation, but they don’t last forever.00:47:51.000 --> 00:48:08.000Stuart Winchester: And the best thing you can do to memorialize them, you can’t really preserve them forever because they’re functional machines, right? But go ride them. And right now, Monarch, along with Lost Trail, is probably the best place in the West to go and ride all Old Hall Liftley. And I understand, again, they’ve been updated.00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:23.000Stuart Winchester: But the aesthetic is similar. So, alright, Chris, look, I gotta take my own advice and get out there and ride those hauls with you this winter. It was really great to talk to you. I really appreciate you coming on. I can’t wait to catch up and hopefully make some turns together this winter.00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.000Chris Haggerty: Yeah, thanks a lot for the time and look forward to seeing you out here at Monarch.00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.000Stuart Winchester: All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks so much, Chris.00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.000Chris Haggerty: Thank you. Bye.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was Chris Haggerty, the General Manager of Monarch Mountain. That was really fun, I’m really glad that he came on. Uh, Randy Stroud, just to be clear, the former GM, it’s not that he ever didn’t want to come on the podcast, it’s just that.00:48:47.000 --> 00:49:00.000Stuart Winchester: I covered Monarch in a different way for the story about the expansion. So he was very good to the storm as well. I do want to tell you that today’s podcast is brought to you by Profile Search International.00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:08.000Stuart Winchester: If you want to find a great leader for your mountain team, I want to introduce you to the pros at Profile Search International.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: They are the ski industry talent acquisition experts, and they are the only executive search and recruitment firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:31.000Stuart Winchester: ProfileSearch has used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada. They find and negotiate with the right leaders for your team, which sometimes you don’t even know that you need in this era of online everything and big data. You can reach Profile Search.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:59.000Stuart Winchester: Directly at ProfileSearch.com, where you will find their email or phone number. You can also send me a note. I will be happy to connect you directly with this expert team. My email address is skiing at substack.com. Alright, we are going to wrap up today.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:05.000Stuart Winchester: With some reader reaction to yesterday’s podcast on…00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:22.000Stuart Winchester: with Midwest skiers, Matt Zabranski, and there wasn’t a lot of feedback. I think, number one, because the Midwest doesn’t get as much feedback in general, but also because I published this one pretty late, I think I put it out at 8 or 9 at night, and so folks may just have not had a chance.00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.000Stuart Winchester: really process it yet. So…00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.000Stuart Winchester: Nell says…00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:41.000Stuart Winchester: Midwest Skiers, meaning MidwestSkiers.com, Matthew Zbrensky’s site, is a regional treasure. The ride-throughs are so thorough, and what Nell means by that is.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:52.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Midwest Skiers puts up on their YouTube channel a, hey, look, here’s the trail map at, say, Trollhagen, Wisconsin. Here’s all 32 trails, whatever it is.00:50:52.000 --> 00:51:03.000Stuart Winchester: and then it rides the reach for the GoPro, and tells you about them, and gives you a really specific breakdown, uh, with some great graphs. So the production quality is really, really good. So, I second that now. Really good.00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:15.000Stuart Winchester: breakdowns of the ski areas from Midwest Skiers. Eric Morris says, great Midwest content, it’d be great to talk to the Dean of Southern Skiing, Randy Johnson, who wrote Southern Snow, the new guide to winter sports.00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:31.000Stuart Winchester: Couldn’t agree more, Eric. If you know him, I would love an introduction. I am not acquainted with Mr. Randy Johnson, but I would love to meet him, as the South has certainly been an undercovered region from my point of view, and not on purpose, just because there’s…00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:44.000Stuart Winchester: a little different culturally than the rest of the United States from a ski point of view, and I have not sunk as far of roots in there as I would like to, especially since I’m not too far from those ski areas. There was also…00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: We’re not getting as much action on the chat, but here’s one.00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: question on the chat, and this is not to do with the podcast from yesterday, but I want to talk about it a little. What will it take for Vail Resorts to turn around? That’s from Saurabh Jain.00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:06.000Stuart Winchester: And commenter Slappy said, redefine what success looks like and suspend the dividend and stock buyback. Of course, those last two may be non-negotiable.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:24.000Stuart Winchester: I’m not going to get out of my lane and talk too much about dividends and stock buybacks, though I do like stocks and follow that world nominally. It’s certainly nothing that I’m an expert to speak on. What Vail needs to do to turn around, I think, is very simple, and I’ve said this many, many times.00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.000Stuart Winchester: And I’ve written about it.00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:37.000Stuart Winchester: many times, and we’ve talked about it on the podcast many times, is they need to treat every single ski resort like it’s Vail Mountain, and every single guest like they’re the President of the United States. They…00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:40.000Stuart Winchester: They need to make sure that.00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:48.000Stuart Winchester: the experience of a lifetime ethos is transferred to any Skiera, whether it’s Beaver Creek.00:52:48.000 --> 00:53:03.000Stuart Winchester: or it’s Mad River, Ohio. And that has not always seemed to be the case since Vail Resorts purchased Peak Resorts in 2019 and sort of doubled the size of its owned resort portfolio within a year’s span. Now.00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:08.000Stuart Winchester: Certainly, Vail has recently recommitted to.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:11.000Stuart Winchester: To that sort of quality, and we’ll see how that plays out.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:13.000Stuart Winchester: I think…00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe a little more shuffling with the Epic Pass, uh, maybe a higher-priced.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:22.000Stuart Winchester: Full pass to to.00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:37.000Stuart Winchester: help traffic some of the more popular ski areas, and maybe some more options. They do a really good job, actually, with the Epic Regionals, with the Tahoe Local, the Northeast Local, and the Summit County Local. So, I think Vail’s done a nice job with that. And I think…00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:45.000Stuart Winchester: From my experience, Vail executives, and I’ve hosted many of them on this podcast. They’re very receptive to criticism.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and they are…00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:53.000Stuart Winchester: Willing to listen and change and evolve. I’m not sure.00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:57.000Stuart Winchester: If that always comes through.00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Outside of direct lines of questioning, if that makes sense. So, so the, the owning of mistakes and saying, okay, you know what?00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:19.000Stuart Winchester: we messed up because Paley Peaks was only open 25 days a year in 2021, or whatever it was. There was a year when a lot of its Midwest ski areas were extremely restricted, or the COVID restrictions and everyone else, but the local ski area operators there.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:24.000Stuart Winchester: we’re out competing them. Uh, you know, when Vail first bought Wilmot, Wisconsin.00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: In 2016, there…00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:38.000Stuart Winchester: their… or maybe that was 2012. They bought Afton Alps, Wilmot, and Mount Brighton in some order, two of them in 2012 and one in 2016. Anyway, there was a great article I read that said.00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:49.000Stuart Winchester: what Wilmot skiers can expect, and Wilmot’s a small ski area outside of, well, it’s broad, it has a lot of lifts, outside of Wisconsin and Chicago, uh, Milwaukee and Chicago.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:56.000Stuart Winchester: And what they said was, we’re gonna bring Western standards to the Midwest, right? And that was very out front. Dale spokespeople were saying that.00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:11.000Stuart Winchester: You never hear them say that anymore, and it’s not clear that that is the standard, and I had a very nice time at Wilmot when I went two years ago, and super friendly staff, and all the lifts were running, even though clearly they didn’t need to be, because it was a Monday, and hardly anyone was there, so I’m certain they were.00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:19.000Stuart Winchester: losing money on that day, and yet they still did their best to provide an experience. I’m just not…00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: It’s just not always…00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:31.000Stuart Winchester: super clear throughout the portfolio, particularly in the Lower Midwest, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, uh, in some of the Pennsylvania ski areas, Mid-Atlantic.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:36.000Stuart Winchester: that that this is their operating philosophy. So I think that.00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.000Stuart Winchester: I think Vail’s better than most…00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: than you would think, scrolling through social media. Uh, in general, I’ve been to pretty much every Vail resort in North America, other than, I think, the two in Missouri and Paoli Peaks.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:07.000Stuart Winchester: And I generally have a really good time and a positive experience, and I find the staff friendly, and that’s a super important thing to me. I love that Vail puts bars on all the lifts. I love that they’re focused on safety in general, that they help police speed. As someone who skis with my kids, that’s important to me.00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: So I generally have a pretty good experience. I think…00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:29.000Stuart Winchester: there’s a little too much gum in the machine, maybe, when it comes to communicating these things and owning and correcting mistakes. So, anyway, with that, I will leave Vel alone for today, and you’re probably wondering why I haven’t yet covered the new Slate.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:44.000Stuart Winchester: of proposed board members by Oasis Capital for Vail Resorts. I don’t want to get too into the weeds on stock stuff, but I do have some thoughts on that. I want to wait till I have a little bit more time to break it down.00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.000Stuart Winchester: So I thank you for coming today. I hope you enjoyed that podcast episode.00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:58.000Stuart Winchester: If you are not already subscribed to the Storm Skiing newsletter, please click over to stormskiing.com and subscribe.00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:14.000Stuart Winchester: That will come right to your inbox. It is not only podcasts, I do a ton of writing. And if you want to upgrade to a paid subscription to the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast, that will give you everything below the paywall, which is a lot of really deep analysis.00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: that I do on the lift service ski industry, particularly in North America, and especially in the United States. Also, if you’re a paid subscriber to The Storm at stormskiing.com, that is the only way to interact with the podcast, because I’m only reading comments from the.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:30.000Stuart Winchester: Previous.00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:47.000Stuart Winchester: Day’s podcast and only paid subscribers can comment. Only paid subscribers can join the chat, which is the second way that they can interact with the podcast. If you want to rep the storm, we have a swag store. You can buy shirts, hats, et cetera, at stormskiing.myshopify.com.00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:52.000Stuart Winchester: Please follow me on YouTube. YouTube is…00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.000Stuart Winchester: Where we will increasingly.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:02.000Stuart Winchester: It’ll be increasingly important to us, and right now, we don’t have that many subscribers there. Uh, everything is going there, but it’s just not…00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:12.000Stuart Winchester: made it into the cultural fabric of that site just yet, so please follow me at Storm Ski Journal on YouTube. Also, Instagram, which I post on more during the winter season.00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:27.000Stuart Winchester: I will be back tomorrow, or I’m scheduled to be back tomorrow, with, and this is one a lot of people have asked me for, a conversation with the general manager of what I think was perhaps the most improved ski area in the country last year, Camelback.00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:38.000Stuart Winchester: Pennsylvania. If you’re rolling your eyes, if you live out west, I encourage you to tune in anyway, because the story of Camelback is a really good story of how do we do things wrong?Stuff referenced in the pod:Monarch’s amazing season pass reciprocal network:A full breakdown of Monarch’s U.S. Forest Service masterplan:Conversation with Snow Partners’ CEO Joe Hession: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is going to cover Midwestern skiing whether you like it or not. Don’t worry, Colorad-Bro, it’s your turn tomorrow.Welcome to the Storm’s short-form, news-focused podcast. Don’t worry, I will still write newsletters too. To browse a (robot-generated) podcast transcript, click the “transcript” button above - click on any block of text and the audio will jump to that point in the conversation. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm’s chat (also below). I’ll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Tuesday, Sept. 15.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the Storm! I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. It is Monday, September 14th, 2026. Welcome to week two of the New Look Storm Skiing Podcast. If you missed last week, I am still doing the longer form pod.00:15:53.000 --> 00:16:08.000Stuart Winchester: But I’m cutting way back on the frequency of those. Instead, I am doing a shorter, news-focused pod that I release more often, and whenever possible, that I release the same day that I record it.00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.000Stuart Winchester: And the reason that I’m doing that is because…00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: the world has changed a lot since 2019, when I launched the Storm Skiing podcast, and when I launched it, there really wasn’t anything quite like…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:26.000Stuart Winchester: what I was doing with the long-form audio stories of a ski area’s background.00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000Stuart Winchester: I’ve done a couple hundred episodes at this point.00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.000Stuart Winchester: I feel like…00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:47.000Stuart Winchester: They’re evergreen. But what they don’t allow me to do is to really talk about what’s happening in a ski area right now. Uh Especially when there’s a lot of things happening and there’s a lot of pieces and parts shuffling around as there is right now in the Midwest.00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: with multi-mountain passes. So, what I’m doing…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:06.000Stuart Winchester: is I’m trying out a little bit of a new format today. The format… we’re gonna experiment, we’re gonna play around with it. Sometimes there’ll be a guest off the top, sometimes I’ll have a take off the top, uh, sometimes I’ll have a guest on for a longer period, and that’s gonna be the case today.00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:22.000Stuart Winchester: Because right now there is so much happening in the Midwest with multi mountain passes and different mountains leaving and joining is completely changing the landscape there. So I want to bring in someone to talk to us at length about that. We’ll do a couple other fun things as well.00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.000Stuart Winchester: Let’s bring…00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000Stuart Winchester: I’m in now.00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.000Stuart Winchester: And there he is. Can you hear me, Matthew?00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Hey, how’s it going, Stuart?00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.000Matthew Zabransky: I can.00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:41.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, I can’t hear you. All right. This is a flub, and this is why I haven’t heard her.00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.000Stuart Winchester: Because I am not that smart.00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, you there?00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.000Matthew Zabransky: Can you hear me?00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, yes, I can. Look at that.00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay, perfect.00:17:52.000 --> 00:18:07.000Stuart Winchester: The technology known as headphones. Matthew, this is why you’re the production guy, and I generally stick to writing, because I’m an idiot. Alright, I want to introduce today the founder of MidwestSkiers.com.00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:13.000Stuart Winchester: He founded that in 2018, and in 2020, founded MWS Productions.00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:29.000Stuart Winchester: He is making all the Midwest content that I was dying for in the 1990s when I was a teenager living and skiing in Michigan, and the ski mags would completely ignore the region and maybe mention Boyne Mountain or Luton once per year, but he makes.00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:38.000Stuart Winchester: Top quality content. I link to it all the time in my stuff because no one else quite does it, as well as Matthew Zabranski. Matthew, welcome to The Storm. How you doing today?00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:56.000Matthew Zabransky: I am doing fantastic. Stuart, thank you, first of all, for the opportunity, but more importantly, for also repping the Midwest. I think it’s such an important, obviously, region, and you have ties to it, I obviously have ties to it as well, so it’s great that we’re getting recognition, not only, obviously, in our region now, but on the national, even international scale, so…00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you so much for doing that. I appreciate it. I’m excited to be here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I love covering the Midwest, Matthew, and I still make it a point to go back and take a Midwest trip every year, because there’s…00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:27.000Stuart Winchester: when I’m doing this podcast, there’s nothing quite like making relationships, like showing up at, you know, a 200 vertical foothill in the boondocks in Minnesota. People are like, okay, I’ll talk to this guy, even though, you know, I’ve never heard of him. So, but you are 100% Midwest-focused. I cover it where I can and whenever I can.00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:37.000Stuart Winchester: There is so much happening in the Midwest that we could talk about. I really want to focus today on multi-mountain passes. So…00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:53.000Stuart Winchester: I’ll start by, I’ll just set this up and then I’ll, and then I’ll, I’ll let you comment on it. So if you go back about 10 years, there was nothing in the Midwest on multi mountain passes. You know, Vale had started to add a few things to Epic Pass and B Brighton and Afton Alps and Wilmot and such.00:19:53.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: But the real inflection point came in 2019, when IndiePass came along. 2018, Icon added a couple things. So, right now, I’ll give you some stats.00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:09.000Stuart Winchester: Of the 124 ski areas that I have inventoried in the Midwest, that you might have a different count.00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:15.000Stuart Winchester: They’re 117 of those are public. 89 of those are public with aerial lifts.00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:28.000Stuart Winchester: 58 of those, although there’s a couple that are just surface toes only, so 58 ski areas in the Midwest are now on a national multi-mountain ski pass. 10 on Epic.00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.000Stuart Winchester: 11 on Icon, 37 for Indy. So, so to start out with, Matthew.00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: How has…00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:47.000Stuart Winchester: the acceptance of the Midwest by multi-mountain national passes change the calculus for skiers as they’re planning out their winter in the Midwest, compared to what it was for most of history up until just a few years ago?00:20:47.000 --> 00:21:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, it’s changed dramatically. It’s even going back a little bit further. I think the first initial, if you look at the statistics and you obviously know all this offhand, but back when you go back to Vail’s acquisition of Wilmont, Afton.00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:19.000Matthew Zabransky: Brighton back in like 2012. I mean, that’s really what started to to kick off this like idea of like. Maybe the Midwest has some legs in it, as far as like developing skiers, and then, you know, bringing them into a pass portfolio that could bring them out west. So that was the very early set, you know, early iteration of this. And then, obviously, as we went along, there wasn’t.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:37.000Matthew Zabransky: too many options outside of just the epic pass. But then, like you mentioned, Indie Pass came in, and I knew, and it’s you know, as we dive into this, I do want to do a little disclosure here, and like Indie Pass was my very 1st client from a production side of things. So Doug and I, because I I saw the opportunity like there was an absolute gold mine here. I’m like.00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:55.000Matthew Zabransky: Because I got to travel around, that’s why I started MidwestGears.com, because we were… we were traveling for my wife’s job all over the Midwest, and every time we’d go to a new city, Columbus, Akron, I’d be a pass holder at one of these little ski areas, and I’d be like, holy crap, there’s a lot of them here, no one’s talking about them.00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:15.000Matthew Zabransky: But you know, once you start to realize there was this many, then you’re then you’re starting to think, okay, like, why isn’t somebody coming in here and starting to develop a past that could actually stand on its own. And that’s what we’ve seen the last, I would say, 5 to 10 years. Specifically, we’ve seen more people traveling around in the Midwest. You’ll catch people at any stereo across the Midwest. That’s not their home hill, and that’s not how it used.00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:27.000Matthew Zabransky: you go ski or one little local place for the most part, you might do your weekend trip up to Boyne or something, but you would never catch people going to some of these really small places, you know, outside of just the local crew there, so it’s been really cool to watch people.00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:45.000Matthew Zabransky: travel and discover, more importantly, the different areas, uh, throughout the Midwest. I think a lot of that had to do with IndyPass’s push in the Midwest, because, as we’re gonna talk about here in a second, it was an absolute auto-buy. Like, there was not even a question about it. From the day it started, when it was, you know, what was that, $99?00:22:45.000 --> 00:23:02.000Matthew Zabransky: up until even just the last year. It was like you almost just were gonna if you lived in the Midwest, and you like skiing, and you don’t. You know you like traveling around checking out new things. There was no reason not to buy it. You’d be silly, basically not to, just because how much saturation there was in the Midwest, which I think is going to lead us into our next conversation a little bit here.00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so, so the…00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:15.000Stuart Winchester: Just being on the ground, before we get to the shuffling around, you know, I’d imagine you’re pretty connected with a lot of pretty hardcore skiers, pretty frequent skiers.00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.000Stuart Winchester: How much has…00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:24.000Stuart Winchester: that a… a season… a multi-mountain pass becomes something that the person in the Midwest just…00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:40.000Stuart Winchester: considers or, or automatically buys it as compared to several years ago where you might buy your local season pass, but, but you, you probably, like you said, you wouldn’t go around. And when I lived in the Midwest, actually, I always appreciated how close the areas were, so I would just kind of bounce around a lot for.00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:46.000Stuart Winchester: for deal days or whatever, back when those were still a thing. But how automatic has it become?00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:23:46.000 --> 00:24:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Very. I mean, there’s people that have been buying the IndyPass specifically now. Up until this season, it was like they were probably on their fifth year of doing it and just continue to. And to be honest, there wasn’t any reason not to because the pricing has stayed relatively affordable.00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:17.000Matthew Zabransky: they keep they kept strengthening their pro, their their product. I mean, like they just kept adding more ski areas in the Midwest. And so in in a lot of times the pass would pay itself off within a couple of visits based off of some of the redemption rates that you’d be getting at some somewhere like Lutz and Snow River.00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:34.000Matthew Zabransky: um, those are all, like, you know, $100 tickets, so you buy… you go there once or twice, you get two days of each of them, and basically that’s already done. So if you already had one of those trips kind of on there, and if you lived in Chicago, you’re going to Granite Peak usually once or twice a year. If you lived in Minnesota, you’re going to Lutz.00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:52.000Matthew Zabransky: So it almost became this thing. And then you shuffle in like nubs, knob, and all that. So it it very much was like, yeah, we’re gonna buy it every single year, you know, we might not. And some people are hardcore and going to all the places they could. And some people were just, you know. Hey? I’m gonna buy it because I’m gonna go for a weekend, so I might as well. And then I have this option of going some other places.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:03.000Matthew Zabransky: it was huge. I mean, I don’t… of course, I don’t have any of the IndyPass numbers, but I would… I would venture to say that the Midwest had to be a very big portion of their portfolio from the sales and redemption standpoint.00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: So the traditional numbers that Indy has given me, and it’s been a couple years since Doug Fish provided these round numbers to me, but he told me about half of their sales came in New England, and 25% came in the Midwest, which is a really big number for a national pass. So you figured the other quarter were coming from somewhere else.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Matthew Zabransky: Cool.00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.000Matthew Zabransky: For… yeah.00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:25.000Stuart Winchester: I always give Doug Fish credit, because he’s a Pacific Northwest guy, and…00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:40.000Stuart Winchester: Western skiers just love to hate on the Midwest. Everyone loves to hate on the Midwest. It’s like the national pastime. It’s like the safe thing to make fun of, and you know, I hope you take that personally, because I always do, and I really appreciated that Doug.00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000Matthew Zabransky: Is…00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.000Matthew Zabransky: I do.00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:55.000Stuart Winchester: Included the Midwest from the start. That first year in 2019, he had Little Switz, he had Crystal, he had Cabre Fay, he had a bunch of other ski areas. Really got big in 2020 when he added Lutzen and Granite Peak. Now, I always say his insight was…00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:45.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:02.000Stuart Winchester: that Doug’s great insight with the IndyPass was realizing there was value in the mountains that are not.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:08.000Stuart Winchester: super destinations when you put them all together for skiers across the country. He also…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:23.000Stuart Winchester: the fact that he extended that to the Midwest is huge, because, yes, I… so, before Icon started adding in into the Midwest, which we’ll talk about in a minute, I would always say, Indy Pass is the pass to go to in the Midwest, no one else has anything, and everyone would always say, oh, wait, Epic has 10 mountains. I was like.00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:34.000Stuart Winchester: But the Midwest is gigantic. Unless you live in Ohio, they’re very spread out, and they’re near cities, and there are actually mountains in the Midwest that are more…00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:44.000Stuart Winchester: of, of what you would consider, like, regional destinations. And that, that’s your Boyne, Nubs, Lutsen, uh, even, even Spira with the bigger, uh, all the stuff over in the UP.00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:57.000Stuart Winchester: So Indy really collected them all together, and it was almost too good to be true, because they had over 40 ski areas in the Midwest. Talk about Indy at its peak.00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:02.000Stuart Winchester: And how great of a pass that was for the Midwest here.00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:17.000Matthew Zabransky: It was too great. We’re going to get into this, I’m sure, but I think that’s part of the reason for the course correction. There was a moment two or three years ago when I literally turned to Nick, my associate who edits for me and stuff, and I said, with some of the additions they announced at that time, I said.00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:06.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:33.000Matthew Zabransky: this is too saturated like it’s got to fix itself at some point like it’s just. It’s too good of a value, and like for skiers, we like anybody that was buying the passes like this is amazing. It makes it like again. It’s an auto buy like, why wouldn’t you do this? But I knew that this time was going to come at some point. But I’m you know, at least we got to.00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:50.000Matthew Zabransky: to see what it like. The peak of that was for a little while. We got a couple of years. We’ve got to be happy for that, to be honest. We’re starting to see some of those what I’ll call course corrections now and and we’re going to continue to see this. I mean, you know that every every year it’s going to be something new. Someone’s changing. It’s just kind of the nature of the business. But.00:27:50.000 --> 00:28:02.000Matthew Zabransky: it was not a shock to me when, um, when these changes were announced, uh, both in the spring and then more recently in the last few weeks and stuff, so it wasn’t… I kind of saw it coming, it was just a matter of, like, when was it gonna happen.00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: So everyone left… they seemed as though… Epic and Icon seemed like they were just leaving the Midwest to Indy, to take. And I’ve always thought that Icon’s original sin was when they killed the Max Pass.00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:30.000Stuart Winchester: And launched the Icon Pass. They brought all the Powder Mountains, all the Boyne Mountains, uh, all the Intra West Mountains, but they didn’t bring Granite Peak and Lutzen, which are the biggest ski areas or most modern, however, whatever metric you want to use in Minnesota and, and Wisconsin.00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.000Stuart Winchester: So…00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:46.000Stuart Winchester: for a long time, Indy just built up this huge coalition. Started to see some cracks last year. Icon had just two mountains, Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, and honestly, and Boyne has never affirmed this to me, but my hunch is, Boyne said, include our mountains or you don’t get Big Sky.00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, yeah.00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:01.000Stuart Winchester: So, so, Icon was like, okay, I guess we’ll add these stupid little things. Uh, which is not my opinion of them, but I think that’s probably what they thought from Colorado, which is why they dropped Lutzen and Granite Peak. So, last year, we started to see the first crack in Indy’s armor.00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.000Matthew Zabransky: I was like, don’t do that.00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:12.000Stuart Winchester: when the Icon Pass… they call them bonus mountains, I call them two-day mountains, because that’s what they are. If you have an Icon Pass, you get two days of these mountains. Uh, Buck Hill, Minnesota.00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:27.000Stuart Winchester: Uh joined the icon pass as a two day mountain, which for the listeners, that’s no, you get no base pass access, you only get full icon access and there are holiday blackouts. So that’s what the two day tier is. They added Buck Hill. Uh Indy said, no, you’re not allowed to do that. Remove Buck Hill.00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which is a great little, uh, you know.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.000Stuart Winchester: kind of trainer hill outside of the Twin Cities.00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:40.000Stuart Winchester: And every square inch is used with very maximum effect. So Indy removed them.00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:53.000Stuart Winchester: Buck Hill has been on Icon, and that was sort of the first… when you first saw that, did you think, okay, here we go, Icon is finally starting to realize the value of the Midwest, and if not, what was the moment that you did think that they got it?00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:09.000Matthew Zabransky: I would, you know, the whole time I’ve been shaking my head a little bit because it’s just ironic to me that Boeing, Boeing, one of the biggest companies in, you know, that started in the Midwest, that literally has its roots here. And I’m just shocked that Icon hasn’t.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:26.000Matthew Zabransky: made this push earlier, and it took this long. But that was like the 1st that was the 1st like mention of that. And the other connection that was really kind of just crazy to me is, there’s so many people from the twin cities that go to Big Sky like a lot like you talk to people all over the place. They have cabins up there. They.00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so. Yeah.00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:42.000Matthew Zabransky: They’re traveling there all the time. It’s a huge destination for specifically for Minnesota, it seems. So I was always thinking, man, like if they were just to strengthen this pass a little bit in the Midwest, give somebody a reason to, to jump on to the icon pass. They’re probably going out to Big Sky anyway.00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:57.000Matthew Zabransky: now all of a sudden, you give them another reason to buy the full pass, you got some… some more local hills, some day… like, weekend trips, you can go up to Lutzen, things like that, and I think that’s when… when Lutzen and those guys came on, that was, like, full-blown, that’s gonna… that changes everything. Like, everything.00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:14.000Matthew Zabransky: As you know, the lake, Lake Michigan, is a huge divider for the eastern and the western side of what I’ll call the Midwest. Basically, if you’re on the eastern side of the lake, you’re kind of going to stick to mostly your lower peninsula, maybe go up to the UP occasionally. But if you’re on the western side over here, in the Minneapolis.00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:31.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, there was really no offerings for Icon, so it really made no sense at that point to buy an Icon Pass. You know, maybe Chicago, you drive up to Boeing, but you’re kind of on that cusp there, where it’s like, mmm… but I think once they strengthened it this past year, now it’s like… it’s a fair fight, in my opinion. Now we’re.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:46.000Matthew Zabransky: You know, which one is gonna make more sense for you, or your situation, which it was not, it didn’t used to be that way, it just, there was never an opportunity for most people that were on this side of the lake, or in Minneapolis. Sometimes it didn’t make sense, unless you’re going out to, you know, Big Sky for a week and a half, it, you know.00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so just a little background for the listeners.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.000Stuart Winchester: Boyne Mountain and and.00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:08.000Stuart Winchester: what they call the Highlands at Harbor Springs. I’ll call it Boyne Highlands because no one knows what I’m talking about when I say the Highlands. So Boyne and Boyne Highlands are two of the nicer ski areas, more built up ski areas in Michigan, and they were long on Icon. Uh, Lutzen and Granite Peak.00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:58.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, this…00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:14.000Stuart Winchester: that, uh, Midwest Family Ski Resorts, which owns Lutzen and Granite Peak, bought, immediately took.00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:25.000Stuart Winchester: four old riblet lifts, put in a high-speed six-pack, the first one in the UP. So, those three ski areas had been indie anchors in the Midwest for years.00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:30.000Stuart Winchester: This year, for 2026-27 winter, they’re going as 5-7 day…00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:42.000Stuart Winchester: mountains each on Icon and Icon Base, and so they are leaving the Indy Pass as a result of that. Now, Icon has also added some more two-day mountains. I’m gonna put those to the side for a second.00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:50.000Stuart Winchester: How big of a loss was Lutsen and Granite Peak and Snow River for Indy Pass in the Midwest?00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:06.000Matthew Zabransky: It’s it’s an easy question. I mean the answer just like, go look at the comments on the thread when it was announced, and you could just read how an impactful it was. And I think that was my argument when people started talking about like, Oh, they’re you know, hey? Like they’re leaving. They’re leaving us in the dust, and we we don’t like them anymore.00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:29.000Matthew Zabransky: It’s probably justified. If you guys are this upset about them leaving, it means they probably had a little more leverage than they should have in that past portfolio. And I think it to that. And again, I don’t know that it needs, like, a passion never be so strong, in my opinion. And I’m talking about the business side of things. You’re not talking about the skier. Trust me, if I was, like, just skiing Matthew, put my skiing thing on, I’d be like, yeah, absolutely.00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, but from the business side, as an area owner, operator, you gotta look at it, like, what kind of value are we getting back out of this pass? Are we the ones carrying your product? Like, that’s the other thing to think about, too, right? We don’t… you don’t always necessarily want to be the top dog in the pass lineup. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn’t. Uh, and in this case, I think that they…00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:56.000Matthew Zabransky: they were carrying that pass line up, and I think nothing speaks more to the volumes of how upset people were when they came off of the pass.00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000Stuart Winchester: So we’re… I’ve kind of looked at this as it’s…00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: sucks for Indy, it’s probably good for the consumer in the long run, because, like you said, you never want too much market concentration, so now you have… you have the Snow Pass coming up, which is… which is Snow Partners in two days…00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:28.000Stuart Winchester: at each mountain. There’s none in the Midwest yet, but I suspect there may be at some point. Right now, they’re mostly in the Northeast. And then you have Icon. So, before, I think a lot of people in Michigan probably had Icon, because you could use it for the Boynes, but like you said.00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:44.000Stuart Winchester: if you’re not from the Midwest, you’re probably just thinking it’s like a big square, but there’s a lake there, and you can’t… I mean, you can take a ferry over it, but it takes all day, right? You have to go to Ludington, and it’s like a whole thing, right? So really, you have Michigan, the Lower Peninsula, and then you kind.00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:58.000Stuart Winchester: Wisconsin. So, you live on the west side of that, I believe, like, around the Minnesota-Wisconsin line. How immediately did you see people say, okay, well, now, yeah, let’s consider Icon that maybe never would have before?00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:04.000Matthew Zabransky: I think the original, like, when it first was announced, there was just a lot of, like.00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:17.000Matthew Zabransky: oh man, this sucks. Like, now what? You know, what do we do? Because the initial reaction was like, well, I’m not gonna auto-buy this now, I gotta think about it a little bit more. I’m curious because I haven’t… it’s still so fresh, to be honest, and I haven’t, like.00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:32.000Matthew Zabransky: but to, like, really figure that question, like, the answer to that question out, but I have… the one thing I have been seeing is a lot more people starting to weigh those options, right? They’re starting to look at the passes differently now. Now it’s, like, not just, like, we’re gonna pick up Indy automatically and, you know, whatever might throw a different pass on there. Now they.00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:49.000Matthew Zabransky: think about, how am I using my pass? Am I going up to Lutzen for a weekend or 2? Does it make sense for me to just get an icon pass? Am I a pass holder at Lutzen, and want to add it on now that that’s an option, and maybe do an out west trip, or if you’re granted peak. So I’m starting to see more people analyzing.00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:03.000Matthew Zabransky: in an area where they haven’t before. So I’ll be curious to see this upcoming season will be a really good test to kind of figure out, like, where are those numbers starting to shift a little bit. But, um, from my first reaction is I have a feeling that there’s gonna be a pretty big drop in IndyPass sales in the Midwest.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:20.000Matthew Zabransky: For that reasoning. Um, and then I do think there’s gonna be a bit of a spike, um, in, in IconPass sales. I don’t think it’s gonna obviously affect much on the Michigan side, Lower Peninsula side of things. I think that’ll stay pretty stable. But I think this side, for sure, this market, Minneapolis specifically, a little bit of Chicago.00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:25.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, but I would expect to see a pretty good little spike in sales on the IconPass side.00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:35.000Stuart Winchester: So, Lutzen and Granite Peak, I think, huge losses for India. Snow River, less so, just because Powderhorn is right next door, and it’s kind of the same size, and it’s, you know, gets the same s.00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm.00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:53.000Stuart Winchester: Continued building by Icon after that announcement, and, and some, and some continued bleeding by Indy. So, so Icon had a Giants Ridge, which is an excellent ski area up in Minnesota. It’s, it’s kind of in the middle of nowhere, but it’s worth it. Uh, Devil’s Head, which is a nice, uh, Madison ski area, and then.00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:10.000Stuart Winchester: in Michigan left Indy to join the Icon today, so those all joined Icon today. And then Indy also lost Little Switzerland, Nordic Mountain, and Crystal Ridge in Wisconsin. As of now, they are passless. So, you know, those are small ski areas, but they’re really important sort of urban.00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.000Stuart Winchester: collectors, but do you worry, Matthew, and I’ll say, Indy still has 37 ski areas in the Midwest, but do you worry that their coalition is splintering a little bit, starting to fall apart?00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:40.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, a little bit. So I’m going to dance around this as carefully as I can because I have connections with all these owners, operators, and I talk to them on a regular basis, so I kind of know more than I probably should. But I’ll try to navigate this the best that I can.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:56.000Matthew Zabransky: with… when IndyPass started, Doug Fish and the team did a really nice job of making sure that when they signed a ski area on, that they were being very, very intentional about its location, what… who was serving, and then when they would add another person on, a lot of times they would even approach.00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:04.000Matthew Zabransky: some of the nearby ski areas, and be like, hey, we’re adding so-and-so, or making sure that those partnerships were all, you know.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:22.000Matthew Zabransky: You’re not too close where you’re starting to monopolize business in different ways. I’ll talk a little bit more about this in a second. So that was the approach for many, many years. However, I noticed a pretty big change a handful of years ago when it became more about a statistical difference than building those partnerships and.00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:41.000Matthew Zabransky: making those owners feel valued, if that makes sense. So it was like, okay, how can we just continue to pump numbers, get more? And in that process, what happened was a lot of ski areas in a small geographical area. And why has that caused a lot of issues for owners and operators? Is the idea of the IndyPass was, yeah.00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:50.000Matthew Zabransky: to create value with a portfolio of ski areas across the Midwest to rival that of, like, you know, other multi-mountain passes.00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:06.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, but what some of the owners and operators were starting to see was that instead of skiers buying a season pass at their local ski area, what they would do is buy the Indy Pass, ski two days at the ski area that would have been their local ski area, and then.00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:22.000Matthew Zabransky: You know, in some cases, like in the Twin Cities, you have a handful that are within a two hour drive. So then it became this thing of like, oh, we’re starting to see RR like personal season passes drop for then people that are using IndiePass redemptions to treat it as if it were basically a season pass.00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:40.000Matthew Zabransky: I’m summarizing a lot there. There’s a lot, like, to dive into, like, the details, but I can’t, unfortunately, go into too much of that. But I think you can probably get the idea of why that was a little bit frustrating for some, um, owners and operators. So they really had to take a deep dive into some of those numbers and start to look at, like.00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:50.000Matthew Zabransky: Where are these people coming from? How are the redemptions being used? And then, you know, how is this pass either, you know, net positive or net negative for us? And, you know, I always tell everybody, it’s…00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:00.000Matthew Zabransky: the ski business is, you know, Stuart, is just a very, very low margin business, and it is a business. Like, at the end of the day, like, they have to treat it like…00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:22.000Matthew Zabransky: you know, like you gotta find out where you’re losing money, or is there opportunity? And that assessment has to happen on a yearly basis. And sometimes when they run it for their business, they might be finding out that this might not be a great option for them. Or maybe it was, and things have changed. And now it’s not so. It’s an ongoing assessment. And like I was mentioning earlier, this is going to be a game that is going to play out over the next 10 years, probably where people are going to be switching teams all the time. And.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000Matthew Zabransky: and just get used to it. I mean, this is gonna be the way it is, unfortunately or fortunately, you know.00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:31.000Stuart Winchester: If you’re Indy, what’s your next move to try to build your coalition back up?00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I think the biggest thing they need to do is get some sort of anchor on this side of the lake. I mean, you’ve got Nub’s Knob on Lower Peninsula, which is a great offering. I think that that really does anchor that side for sure. Over here, you gotta start eyeing up some areas that would serve as that anchor ski area. I know Whitecap was added.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:49.000 --> 00:41:04.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, which is good, but I think, like, you gotta think about, you know, what is that replacement for? You know, what is that replacement for Granite Peak? And it immediately comes to mind, like, a Cascade, right? Or one of those. And we all know, like, it’s just gonna be a tough sale for some of these operations, because it’s always that, like.00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think so.00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000Matthew Zabransky: If you’re an anchor skier, you’ve probably got a good operation and a good thing going already, so…00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:29.000Matthew Zabransky: you know, what is the pitch? Why should I join your indie pass? So it’s always this give and take a little bit, but, you know, given that we’ve had a bunch of ski areas now come off of indie, there might be an opportunity to fill that little bit of a void and be kind of that new anchor spot that would then highlight that side of the lake. I don’t know. It’ll be curious to see kind of how things play out, but.00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:37.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, I think we’ll see a little bit of this course correction go on for the next year or two, and then I think maybe we’ll see some moves in the future. It’s hard to say.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Stuart Winchester: That was really good, so I’m gonna extend that question. If you’re Icon, what’s your next move in the Midwest, and if you’re Epic?00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000Matthew Zabransky: If if I’m icon, what I’m circling right now to be quite frank is somewhere in the Chicagoland area. There’s an opportunity there, and I don’t, you know, of course. What is it? We don’t know, but I think if you could add an offering like a full offering to which is a little bit tricky to do. But yeah, like you think of something like.00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:24.000Matthew Zabransky: Cascade, Devil’s Head, one of those areas, if you can get it into, like, a full area where you can now grab that Chicago market and have it really well solidified, because right now you’re kind of in a, you know, it’s about four hours from up to Granite Peak, and then Boeing the other way is something like that, five or something. So you’re kind of in that weird dead zone there, so I think there’s still a huge opportunity to grab that market, which obviously is a huge market of skiers and s.00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:30.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. And if you’re Epic, I mean, they have all city stuff, so what do you do if you’re Epic?00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:49.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I mean, I think Epic’s playing the card that they want. The one thing that I am curious to see with Epic is not necessarily that, it’s what’s gonna happen with some of these smaller regional ski areas that have kind of been left in the dust a little bit. Paley Peaks is the first one that comes to mind when you start to think about this Snow Creek.00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:42:49.000 --> 00:43:06.000Matthew Zabransky: These ones that are just kind of in no man’s land a little bit. They kind of got brought in with the Peak Resorts acquisition. I’m not sure that they necessarily wanted some of these ski areas, but they came in as a package deal as part of that. So it’s just gonna be kind of interesting to see. They need a lot of reinvestment over the next, you know.00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:23.000Matthew Zabransky: 10 to 15 years, for sure, if not even sooner than that. So it’ll be curious to see kind of how they approach those sort of areas in those regions, because some of those are in their own land like there is no ski area relatively close to some of them, or a couple of hours to the nearest ski area. So it’ll be curious to see how they leverage that going forward.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Matthew, I could sink into that one for about two hours and we could have a talk. I’m going to have to bring you back for that one. But for now, let’s move on. And some of the folks who may not be familiar with the Midwest, we’re going to talk about some of our favorite Midwest ski areas in just a moment. First, I want to tell you that this podcast is brought to you today by Profile Search International.00:43:44.000 --> 00:44:03.000Stuart Winchester: Profile Search is the only talent acquisition firm in the entire world that is 100% focused on the ski industry. They have used their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries, and of available candidates worldwide, to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:19.000Stuart Winchester: 30 years. Profile Search has offices in the US and Canada, and they find and negotiate with the right leaders for their team. If you want to reach out to Profile Search, you can find them at profilesearch.com, and you can get their email or phone number there, or send me a note and I will.00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:26.000Stuart Winchester: make that connection for you. That is profilesearch.com. All right, Matthew, I gave you a challenge.00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: Or, or homework or something. I don’t know. I’m sure you didn’t have to think too hard about this, but we are going to break down our five favorite Midwest ski areas. We each have five. We’ll, we’ll start with five and, and, uh, and we’ll take turns. Now, these are not what we think are the best necessarily because that’s a whole different.00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:47.000Stuart Winchester: Conversation and I tried to think about.00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:59.000Stuart Winchester: If you’ve never skied the Midwest and are only going to ski here once in your life, where would I tell people to go? So, Matthew, I’ll start with you. What is your number five favorite Midwest ski area and why?00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:14.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah. So I’ll just just key this up with like, yeah, I agree with you. I went with kind of like I took an approach of uniqueness. There’s different things that I enjoy about this years for different reasons, and I’ll obviously unpack them as we kind of go through number 5 for me was perfect north slopes.00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:32.000Matthew Zabransky: And at its face, you might not think that that’s… it’s, you know, it’s a ski area right outside of, uh, Cincinnati, um, and the southern tip of Indiana down there. And for, you know, for people that have never heard of it, they’d be like, why does this… why is this even on here? Uh, but the moment that you visit there, I think it all becomes very clear. Their throughput.00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:51.000Matthew Zabransky: their snowmaking capacity, their operations. It is a gold standard when we think of how to run a ski area in extremely challenging conditions and environments. Perfect North is the one that comes to mind. The way that they can move people through their rental department is phenomenal. The way that they can have a stable season based off of where they are.00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:08.000Matthew Zabransky: is just absolutely mind blowing. And they’ve been doing this since day one. So this isn’t something that they have. You know they’re new to. They’ve been doing this for many, many, many decades now at this point. So it’s it’s definitely worth a visit. Their train’s really good as well. They have some Olympians that have come out of there just some some good stuff going down at at perfect north slopes.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:23.000Stuart Winchester: I’m so glad you said Perfect North, because I did not include it on my list, but I think they are one of the best operators in the country. My number 5 is Chestnut, Illinois, and everyone’s… you know why, but everyone’s gonna say, Illinois? Like, what does it matter with you?00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:29.000Stuart Winchester: It is so unique, because you get up there, and it’s about 500 vertical feet.00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:45.000Stuart Winchester: and you ski down to the freaking Mississippi River. It is… there is nothing else like that in American skiing. It is such a gorgeous view, and there’s a train that goes by, and, and, and… the lift system is fantastic. Bunch of, you know, really maintained quads.00:46:45.000 --> 00:47:00.000Stuart Winchester: They have bars, which I like, which most Midwest ski areas don’t, but they’ve retrofit them. Their grooming is phenomenal. Terrain’s really good, steep and varied, and then one of the best things is on the backside, and the name of this probably is escaping me, it’s like the backyard or something.00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah. Okay.00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, far side.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:15.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah, so they have a terrain park that could be its own ski area, and it has a lift by itself, and so all the badly behaved teenagers go over there and throw cans around and smoke. Maybe it was just the day I was there.00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:20.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but, but my number five is Chestnut, Illinois. Uh, number four, Matthew.00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:37.000Matthew Zabransky: This is gonna be. This is gonna be a deep cut here, and I’ll give you my reasoning. So I’m a sucker for community rope toe ski places like it. It warms my heart every time every year there’s at least one or 2 that I go to every time I show up. It’s just the kids are so excited to show me around.00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Oh, love it.00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:47:37.000 --> 00:48:00.000Matthew Zabransky: They’re so passionate and it really brings me back to why skiing is important and what it really is about, right? We talk about the steeps and all this fun stuff all the time, but like when you go to these places, there’s just to see a kid just in jeans or whatever it may be after school ripping down. It’s so fun. So one of my favorite, if not my favorite rope to ski area in the entire Midwest is a place called Hickory Hills. It’s in Traverse City.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:18.000Matthew Zabransky: It’s a beautiful setting overlooking the bay, and they have just all ropes and one conveyor, and it’s stacked. And it was one of the first ski areas in the Midwest to offer night skiing, which I thought was really, really cool as well. Obviously, not a lot of vertical, maybe 200 feet of vertical, depending on which rope you’re going on, but it’s one of those places you just show up.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:30.000Matthew Zabransky: And they’ve reinvested, as recently as 2018, they built a new lodge, new snowmaking, and you just show up there, and you’re just like, it brings you back to that, like, oh yeah, this is some good skiing, like, just…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:37.000Matthew Zabransky: fundamental, good stuff, you see kids ripping around after school, it’s like, it’s what I think of when I think of, uh, rope tow places.00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: And long live the rope tow. I mean, it is amazing that I think they run five or six there, right?00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:46.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, I think they have six total, I believe, yeah.00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I’ve been there in the summer. I’ve never skied there. I used to ski at Sugarloaf down the… down the road till that went out of business. My number 4 is one you already mentioned, Matthew. Whitecap, Wisconsin. I just love this crazy ski area. It is…00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.000Matthew Zabransky: Yo.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: I like to be confused when I’m skiing. I like it when a ski area…00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:05.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:22.000Stuart Winchester: Kind of hides its secrets and has lots of little trails and the trail map doesn’t quite match up with the, with what you actually see. And, and there’s lifts all over the place and there’s little pockets and there’s, you can tell that they don’t care if you ski in the trees. And, and, and Whitecap is, is one of the most confusing ski areas I’ve, I’ve ever been to and I love.00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: it’s in the great snow pocket off of Lake Superior, gets 200 or more inches of snow average per year, which is a good thing, because they don’t have a lot of snowmaking, uh, there. But I really, really love Whitecap, and by the way, we did not share ours before, so we may have some crossover here. So, uh, what’s your number 3, Matthew?00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:55.000Matthew Zabransky: Number three, I am going with a ski area that I think people around here would know, but I think people on the other side of the lake would not. And it is going to be Welch Village. Welch Village is an area that just, you look at the numbers, you read the stats, and you’re like, this place…00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:15.000Matthew Zabransky: cannot be that good. But it really is. It skis so much bigger than the stats suggest. I think it’s about 300 feet of vertical. They have like 50 something runs. But I think what Welch Village has that a lot of skiers don’t is the amount of terrain variation and stepping that they have is just phenomenal for beginners, and the fact that it’s only about 40 minutes from the Twin Cities.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:31.000Matthew Zabransky: is amazing. So they have basically a run for every progression. If you want super steep, now obviously it’s only 300 feet of vertical, so it’s gonna be a handful of turns, but they have that. If you want something very, very gently sloped, they got that, and basically everything in between. And it’s just one of those areas that is a perfect.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:41.000Matthew Zabransky: Kind of like just outside the urban reach, right? It’s not like in your backyard, but it’s close enough where you can easily go for a few hours and just a perfect place to learn how to ski and snowboard.00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I love Welch Village. I was super impressed when I went there a few years ago, and it’s not too far from Vail’s Afton Alps, so you can do both in a day easily if you want to, but Welch Village, first-rate operation, absolutely one of the best in the Midwest. My number three is a nostalgia play, and I’m gonna say Boyne Mount.00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:13.000Stuart Winchester: The reason I love Boyne Mountain is not because of the fast lift, so they were the first six-pack in North America, and, you know, they put in the first eight-pack in the Midwest, and there’s a lot of history there. The first chairlift in the world is there. They moved it from Sun Valley.00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:23.000Stuart Winchester: the single chair from Sun Valley back in the… in the 40s, and it’s now the Hemlock double chair. But what I love Boyne Mountain is because when I… back in the 90s, when I lived in Michigan.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:30.000Stuart Winchester: they would stay open into May. And back then, there was no social media, so no one knew about it, so I’d show up, and there would be…00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:26.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:47.000Stuart Winchester: not kidding, 10 people skiing, and they would be running that six-pack all day, and they would let it bump up, and just run idiots to light, and it’s where I learned how to ski moguls, and I’ve always just been tremendously fond of Boyne for that reason. So while it is one of the nicest ski areas in the Midwest, just on its own terms.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:51:47.000 --> 00:52:02.000Stuart Winchester: It’s also very steep. It’s just, I have that feeling of, you know, that memory of skiing in my t-shirt in May in 1996, you know, down the moguls at Boyne Mountain with five other people, and it was just, it’s one of my favorite ski memories ever, and the fact that they.00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:13.000Stuart Winchester: empowered that and did that. When they lost money, there’s no way they didn’t lose money doing that. It just speaks a lot to the spirit that still animates that company, even though it’s a bigger company now.00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.000Stuart Winchester: Number two for you, Matthew.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:31.000Matthew Zabransky: We’ll get to this, I’m sure, at the end, but it’s cool to see some of that going full circle. I don’t want to give too much away. We’ll get into that in a second. Number two for me is a pick that I think is going to change a lot this year, specifically because of the new lift alignment, and that’s Marquette Mountain.00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:19.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:32.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:50.000Matthew Zabransky: They have phenomenal terrain up there, they get great snow, and the thing that was always just missing was a little bit of polishing around the edges, and I think they’re finally getting to that point now with, uh, you know, a lot of snowmaking investments over the last handful of years. This new chair from Dolphin Meyer, uh, triple gonna run up basically the center of the ski area, and I think it’s really gonna change the way that this.00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Uh, previously, it was divided into kind of two almost separate pods. It kind of had this weird split down the middle. It was kind of hard to navigate. But given that this one’s gonna go right up to the center there, you’re gonna be able to get full top-to-bottom access a lot more easily, be able to access a lot more of the terrain across the port, the entire, you know, trail map off the front side there.00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:23.000Matthew Zabransky: and I think it’s 1 of those that like it. This they have the terrain, and there’s not many areas in the Midwest that have the terrain. It’s usually the other way where it’s like, Yeah, okay, we have. You know the infrastructure. We have the location, but we don’t have the steeps, or we don’t have the trees, or whatever it may be.00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:34.000Matthew Zabransky: It’s a Marquette, good city up there in the UP, really the only major city in the UP, but they have a good demographic up there. And I think with the changes that they’re gonna see this year with the new lift, it’s gonna be really fun to watch.00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:44.000Stuart Winchester: Not only do they have the terrain, they have the snow. I mean, they’re another one of those Lake Superior. They don’t get quite as much as up in the Keweenaw or Snow River, but they do get a fair amount.00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, yeah.00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.000Matthew Zabransky: They do.00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:54.000Stuart Winchester: So my number two, I’m kind of going chalk on these last two, so you can probably guess what my number one is. My number two is a very obvious one, and that’s Lutzen.00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.000Matthew Zabransky: Mm-hmm.00:53:54.000 --> 00:54:10.000Stuart Winchester: You know, for, for folks who have never been to Lutzen, it, first of all, it has a gondola. Now, now it’s more of a transit lift. It goes more sideways than up and down, but it does have, is it eight or 900 feet of vertical? I think 800 and, or you could ski down to, yeah, of lift served vertical. And the.00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.000Matthew Zabransky: It’s… yeah.00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: enormous. It’s really four separate mountains and it goes in all different directions and they have two six packs and they have that Gandhi, which is fairly new. I think within the last 10 years, they built that to replace their older one. Uh That is one of the best run ski areas in the Midwest. Another one that will stay open into May.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:42.000Stuart Winchester: when they can. Oh, and speaking of views, I mean, the view off of Moose Mountain of Lake Superior just knock you on your ass. It is so good. I really love Lutzen Mountain, which takes us, Matthew, to your number one ski area in the Midwest.00:54:42.000 --> 00:55:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Man, man, this is one, and it’s funny ‘cause I’m working on this video right now, and it’s a place that every time I leave this ski area or while I’m at this gear, I just have a smile on my face the entire time. It has nothing flashy, but they do everything right, and that’s nub knob. I mean, you go to this place and you just…00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: Favorite ski area.00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:17.000Matthew Zabransky: It’s just crazy to me that we were working on this video and my editor, Nick, we got to the end of the video and I mentioned like, “Oh, it doesn’t have any high-speed lifts, but it almost feels like it does just because of the way that they’re aligned and the way the traffic flows and the way that the runs are cut and everything.00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:34.000Matthew Zabransky: It feels like another one that just, you read the stats and you’re like, okay, that sounds decent. But then you get on site and you’re just like, this is just a really well run ski area. Snowmaking is always top notch. Grooming is amazing. Lifts spin, they don’t stop very often. I mean, everything is just really well polished.00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:33.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:45.000Matthew Zabransky: the core skiing experience, and they really nail it, and again, it’s one of those, like, every time I come off the hill there, I’m just like, man, that was a great day of skiing, even if, you know, it’s raining outside, I feel like.00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:45.000 --> 00:56:01.000Stuart Winchester: And as a… just to underscore how good of a scary it is, it’s right across the street from Boyne Highlands, and it has been, you know, obviously its whole time, but for a scary to succeed, a lot of times, a smaller scary will fail next to a big corporate area, but Nubs has managed to flourish. Matthew, we actually had no crossover, because.00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:51.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:16.000Stuart Winchester: as you can probably guess, is Mount Bohemia, and I’m sure that’s probably why you left it off. Uh, Mount Bohemia, for the folks who are not familiar with it, I wrote an article last year, I called it, Mount Bohemia, the scarier the Midwest deserves, because when Mount Bohemia opened in 2000, it.00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:03.000Matthew Zabransky: Hey.00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.000Matthew Zabransky: Yep.00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:31.000Stuart Winchester: And it has 900 feet of vertical. They do not groom. They have no snowmaking. They get 300 inches annually. It’s all, almost all, glades. Their glading is some of the best I’ve ever seen anywhere, because there’s a lot of underbrush in Michigan.00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.000Matthew Zabransky: Okay.00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:48.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the place is an absolute riot. Talk about culture. You get on the ground and you’re like, oh, what’s here? They don’t even have a proper base lodge. It’s, it’s all these yurts and then they have this giant complex of hot tubs for some reason that, that everyone’s always in there drinking beer and.00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:55.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is just… it’s great! It’s… it’s… there’s nothing else like it anywhere in North America, where there’s just…00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:12.000Stuart Winchester: that much just free skiing available off of a lift, and Lonnie, the owner, has been on a couple times, and I cannot say enough good things about Nubs Knob, including… and I’ll let people do their own research on this, but their season pass is $117, or $99 for… you don’t want Fridays and Saturdays, and you get all kinds of reciprocals with it, so…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:16.000Stuart Winchester: It’s not a bad multi-mountain pass on its own. So…00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:30.000Matthew Zabransky: I was so. I was so nervous the 1st so I went to Bohemia last year for the 1st time ever, and I it has been on my list forever, and I keep like I want to hit it right, because I don’t want to like. Just go there and not be able to ski everything. And the entire time I’ve been super fortunate to see a lot of amazing places in in North.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:20.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:49.000Matthew Zabransky: And I was super nervous it was not going to live up to the hype, because I was like, this place is hyped up so much, there is no way that it is going to live up to the hype, and it absolutely did. It’s one of the most unique scary areas that you’ll ever go to, the operations, the bus system, the hot tub. Nothing makes sense there, but it all does in a weird way. It’s an absolute riot.00:57:49.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: I couldn’t have said any better. I always tell people, if you ski one place in the Midwest in your life, make it Mount Bohemia. All right, now, Matthew, what I want you to leave us with today is… I imagine, maybe deliberately, you didn’t mention any of these ski areas, but one of the…00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:15.000Stuart Winchester: things that you do an awesome job with every year is covering the race to open in the Midwest. So, so tell us about the race to open. Who’s involved?00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.000Stuart Winchester: When it generally takes place and how you cover it.00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:35.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, so the race to open is a pretty big deal across the Midwest. It was something that before I started this website and YouTube channel, I did not really realize a lot, but the Midwest is always usually fighting for one of the first areas to open in the entire country on occasion. It really just depends on the weather.00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:52.000Matthew Zabransky: But what we do is we always have that hype the early season. Everyone’s hyped up. They’re ready to go out. But unfortunately, a lot of people can’t. So what we like to do is really get that hype going, and then obviously highlight those ski areas that are going to be open. There are people that make the drive. They drive 8, 10 h sometimes just to go ski one run, which is crazy to me, but.00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:07.000Matthew Zabransky: they do it. So we want to make sure we give them as much information leading into the into those opening weeks as we can. So what I do is I do a video series weekly starting. It all depends on the weather we open as early have opened as early as mid October.00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:27.000Matthew Zabransky: generally speaking, it’s gonna be first week of November, I would say, is generally the average. Um, give or take a few weeks in either direction, based on, you know, these cold fronts that move through. And I’ll basically do weekly snow-making reports and opening updates, videos that’ll… I’ll break down the forecast, we’ll go through, like, who’s gonna be making snow, who’s gonna be firing up, what kind of production they’re gonna be getting.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:43.000Matthew Zabransky: And then what’s the likelihood that these areas are gonna have skiing? And if they do have skiing, how many runs are gonna be open? Is it gonna be top to bottom coverage? Is it gonna be fast grass? What are we talking here? Um So I make sure to do that and we usually I’ll, I’ll do that, you know, beginning of the season until usually around the Christmas time once everyone kind.00:59:43.000 --> 01:00:01.000Matthew Zabransky: Um, and gets rolling, so it’s always a really fun way to kick off the season, and then obviously gives people a little bit of information about operations as well, because I don’t think people understand how much goes into snowmaking, both on the strategic side of things, and then obviously the science and all the other stuff that goes on behind it, so it’s a good way to kind of share some of that knowledge with some of the viewers.00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:10.000Stuart Winchester: So I think most of my listeners are probably familiar with the A-Base in Keystone, Loveland, Triangle, and Colorado. Tend to have the same group of players in the Midwest as well.01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:09.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah.01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:30.000Matthew Zabransky: So the 3 really that it comes down to each and every year is going to be Andy Sour Hills, Wild Mountain, and Trollhagen. And the reason is they’re really, this is their thing. And you know, when it comes to when it comes to opening early, there’s always this little like risk element to it. You’re doing it mostly because you want to serve your season pass holders. I mean, you’re not really making any money on a lot of those opening days.01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:53.000Matthew Zabransky: you’re doing it for the marketing, and then to obviously give your pass holders kind of a fun thing to get started. Now, the downside to that is, you could push really hard and spend a lot of money on water and energy to get nothing like it all might just like melt a week later. So there’s a lot of strategy when we talk about, you know, making snow opening dates all that. There’s a lot of people that will just wait. You look at Welch Village and.01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.01:00:53.000 --> 01:01:08.000Matthew Zabransky: their owner is very outspoken about, no, we want to wait until we get a deeper front that we can open with more terrain, right? We don’t want to open with just one run, we want to open with a few top-to-bottom runs. Trollhoggin kind of has that same attitude, we’re not going to open with just a rope, we want.01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:24.000Matthew Zabransky: But then you have like Andy Starhills and Wild Mountain that will open with whatever it takes, you know, if it’s a rope toe, if it’s a carpet, it doesn’t matter. They’re gonna try to, you know, even if it’s like literally 3 inches of snow on the ground, if they can get it to be skiable, they will certainly try. So it’s always kind.01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:41.000Matthew Zabransky: main players. Andy’s Tower Hills usually has a little bit of an advantage because they’re just a little more north, and they’re also on the western side of the state, more of the western side of Minnesota. So they get the weather first. So they usually have a few hour head jump on those in the St. Croix Valley, which would be your Trollhagen and Wild Mount.01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:58.000Stuart Winchester: Well, it’s always fun to watch. Matthew, where is the best place for people to follow you? Because, you know, the good news about No Gatekeepers is that folks like you can make awesome Midwest content. The bad thing is there’s a lot of platforms. So what’s your, do you have one that you focus on the most?01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:22.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, we definitely focus on YouTube the most. That’s going to be our main platform. And generally speaking, our Instagram and Facebook pages are mostly just feeding people over to mostly to YouTube. We really want to focus on more of the long form content. And then over on our website, you’ll get some really good resources as well. One of our big highlights is we have a map of every area across the Midwest with statuses of if they’re open, making snow, things like that. So early season.01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:33.000Matthew Zabransky: it’s really handy, because you can go on there and just kind of see what’s the nearest ski area that’s open, like, near me. Um, so that’s a good one, and that’s at midwestskiers.com. Uh, you can go on.01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:49.000Stuart Winchester: Incredible. All right, Matthew, you’re doing a great job. I always tell my listeners and readers that I believe that the Midwest is one of the world’s great ski cultures, and maybe they think I’m just saying that because I’m from there, but I truly believe that, and I’m so glad that they have someone with your talents covering it.01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.000Matthew Zabransky: Thank you.01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:56.000Stuart Winchester: That was a lot of fun, Matthew. Let’s do it again. Thanks so much for coming on. I’ll hopefully see you for some turns this weekend.01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:11.000Matthew Zabransky: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, let’s talk some more, man. I love talking Midwest, love talking skiing, and thank you so much for what you’re doing. You guys are making some amazing content over there. Always a pleasure to listen to your podcast, specifically when they’re Midwesterners, but all of it’s great, sir. You’re doing an awesome job.01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:19.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, yeah, I got more Midwest coming this week. I got the Meyer boys from Cabaret, so look for that one. All right, Matthew, thanks so much. Talk to you soon.01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:17.000Matthew Zabransky: Yes.01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:21.000Matthew Zabransky: All right, take care.01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:21.000Stuart Winchester: All right, bye.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:33.000Stuart Winchester: Alright, that was… Matthew Zabranski. Matt is the best, that was really awesome, Matt. I… I could talk Midwest skiing all day long, and… and hopefully, for those of you who…01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:54.000Stuart Winchester: our Midwest, uh, haters or deniers, you can at least understand why we like it and why we value the culture over there so much. So, uh, let’s do some reader feedback, and then I will get out of here for today. So, uh, I noticed that some folks were leaving comments on.01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:09.000Stuart Winchester: On the older pods in general, what I’m gonna try to do is read the comments from the most recent pod just for efficiency’s sake. So I always go to the same place. So if I didn’t read your comment, that is probably why.01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: So, first comment, so this is responding to our podcast with Eric Mogensen.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:16.000Stuart Winchester: on Thursday, September 10th.01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:27.000Stuart Winchester: from Nick, paid subscriber. Again, you have to be a paid subscriber to participate in the podcast to be able to comment on the article that links to the podcast on stormskiing.com.01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:38.000Stuart Winchester: This is from a comment from Nick. Great listen, loving the new format, glad Eric addressed the Snow King stuff, even though he so clearly hates getting roped into the annual preseason drama.01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:48.000Stuart Winchester: Hot take, Smugs joining Indy is great. Jay remaining is better. Look forward to seeing what this season brings. So do I, Nick. Next comment is from Ari.01:04:48.000 --> 01:05:04.000Stuart Winchester: Is it possible for the transcripts to show more clearly where the questions end and answers begin? That would make them much more readable. IMO, happy that others prefer the pod, but you’ve trained me to be a reader. Look, I get it, Ari, I’m a reader as well, and I wish the transcripts were better.01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:16.000Stuart Winchester: The only way the transcripts can exist is if the robots make them, and right now they are AI-generated transcripts. Uh, so I can’t go through and improve them, because.01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:32.000Stuart Winchester: Even though that sounds like a simple task, it would take way too long. So, what I can say is the reason I’ve stuck with Substack for 7 years is they are always making the technology better. When I launched in 2019, there were no auto transcripts. They rolled out that feature without even talking about it.01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:43.000Stuart Winchester: at some point over the following few years, and I do believe that they will continue to get better and better and better, so I… what I would say is, hang on.01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:48.000Stuart Winchester: I think that the transcripts will improve. I think that’s part of…01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:52.000Stuart Winchester: of Substack’s model is always making a better product.01:05:52.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Next comment is from my guy SuperMario, big fan of the Storm Skiing Podcast. He was one of the first folks to jump onto the paid tier when I launched it, when I introduced it in 2022.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:20.000Stuart Winchester: SuperMario says, Stuart, I’m a big fan of this new podcast format. My question to you is, do you think you’ll be covering more South American skiing like you’ve done with Vinovato and Coralco, or perhaps any ski resorts from New Zealand and Australia? I know Vail Resorts has a presence in Australia.01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:35.000Stuart Winchester: Do you think mega passes will permeate further into the southern hemisphere than they currently do, such as in New Zealand and Argentina? The answer to the first question, Super Mario, is yes, I will absolutely be covering the southern hemisphere more because I can now do a lot more podcasts than I used to.01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:50.000Stuart Winchester: Uh I as far as weather veil and icon and epic will go further into the southern hemisphere. Yes. But one thing that I’ve discovered and I, I wasn’t keenly aware of this before I launched the storm. There’s really not that many ski areas down there.01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:53.000Stuart Winchester: There’s only about a half dozen.01:06:54.000 --> 01:07:08.000Stuart Winchester: actual functional ski areas in Australia. You know, a few more in New Zealand, a lot of them are high-altitude ski fields. There’s maybe several dozen between Chile and Argentina. That’s pretty much it. There’s fewer than 100 in the whole southern hemisphere, so…01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:16.000Stuart Winchester: I think that we will see more. I think the big opportunity area is probably Argentina, which has some larger.01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:31.000Stuart Winchester: ski areas that are not on any pass quite yet. So yes, to a limited extent, because there just aren’t that many down there. And there’s a variety of reasons for that, mostly because a lot more people live in the northern hemisphere. Next comment is from Hayden.01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:48.000Stuart Winchester: As another Michigander, Matt Z will be an interesting one next week. He’s about the only other one besides you with good, knowledgeable coverage of Midwest skiing stuff. Would love to hear his take on indie icon moves. Hope you enjoyed that. I know a lot of people, myself included, were pretty pissed about Midwest Family and Cabaret.01:07:48.000 --> 01:08:03.000Stuart Winchester: Seemingly selling out to Icon that is at least three times the price of Indy. Money is king, and I’m sure the numbers work out better for the resorts, but that price point for Icon is nuts for Midwest Hills. Only worth it if you can foot the bill for the trip west.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:13.000Stuart Winchester: I hear ya, it’s a rapidly changing world, but like Matthew said, I don’t think that that will be the last draft of our…01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:15.000Stuart Winchester: different past tiers in the Midwest.01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:34.000Stuart Winchester: Next comment is from Gustav. This episode was a good example of how Stuart is bringing real journalism to skiing. That said, I don’t think it was necessary to ask Eric line by line about ski areas that left Indy. The Snow King issue did need attention, though, and although it sounds like the issue stemmed from an internal misread of the Indy contract.01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:37.000Stuart Winchester: It was helpful to clear up that Snow King is still on Indy.01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:52.000Stuart Winchester: What pass they are on does matter for people that want to ski there, so they can decide what passes to buy or not. The King is nearest the southern part of the West, where Indy’s presence isn’t strong enough to make it a compelling pass option, which is why I’ve never bought it living in Arizona.01:08:52.000 --> 01:09:08.000Stuart Winchester: And it may matter for the snow pass buyers that want a straightforward trip west and only have a couple of options this year. That’s some good analysis on that conversation and passes. Matt Hart, paid subscriber, says, Stuart, you’ve mentioned a handful of times over the years.01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: You’ve mentioned a handful of times over the years of the pod that many now resorts, and especially smaller indie-type mountains, were founded and run by, meant lovingly in my word, not yours per se, eccentrics. Mostly guys who got back from service.01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:33.000Stuart Winchester: and founded and built something into a huge success, and that their era has reached or is reaching an end.01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:42.000Stuart Winchester: I think Eric fits this mold in a totally different 21st century way, but there are definitive common threads. It hit me when I… when he said.01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:49.000Stuart Winchester: Quote, I spend my first 8 to 10 hours of my day, end quote, and then goes up to the alpine cabin to work some more.01:09:49.000 --> 01:10:06.000Stuart Winchester: Eric has a motor-slash-work ethic drive that has very few peers. After 8 hours of doing anything, I am ready for a nap. But then again, maybe he’s popping a bottle of champagne for inspiration and a second wind. Yeah, Eric absolutely fits that mold. Great ski area owner.01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:08.000Stuart Winchester: Michael Malkoli.01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:16.000Stuart Winchester: Sorry, man. Mokali. Uh, it follows that. A real banger of a pod. Eric, way to represent Western New York. Go Bills.01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:31.000Stuart Winchester: Alex Kaufman, again, started the Winery Mix podcast. He says, “New format has deaf-hooked me more than the old. He called him Jersey Joe, lol.” That was Eric referring to Joe Heschen. Jersey people know what you think about Jersey, and they don’t care.01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mike Schultes says, another great interview with Eric M. You have to be very impressed with the numbers they’ve done at Black. The cabin now doing about as much as the prior owners did in total on the overall growth in revenue, almost 20x. That has to take up so much of his time and energy.01:10:47.000 --> 01:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: plus what Entebeni requires, and of course, IndiePass. Just hope this small team can engage their ski partners like Doug F. and company did prior to acquiring Black. Well, yeah, I think all that’s all built in, because it’s… Entebeni is really the owner.01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:19.000Stuart Winchester: of Black Mountain, not Eric per se. I just do that for expediency’s sake, say that Eric is the owner. Matt Hart follows that comment with, I absolutely love that Eric shares these numbers. It makes everything more believable. I mean, hopefully everything on the podcast is believable, Matt.01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:36.000Stuart Winchester: I’m doing a non-fiction podcast, in case anyone was wondering. Final comment from Jeff. Hi, Stuart. Really enjoy the additional format, and the Surge season’s cadence makes a ton of sense. Regarding indie, Smugs is obviously a great addition, but more generally, I’m.01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:52.000Stuart Winchester: Floored with Indy’s growth. It tracks with what I’ve observed in recent years, more ski friends from different circles opting for Indy add-ons or straight Indy Pass and leaving the Megas. I do wonder when Indy will hit quote peak partner cap end quote thoughts.01:11:52.000 --> 01:12:07.000Stuart Winchester: I realize Eric said nothing is static, rosters will change every year, but seems to me if you’re not on Indy by now, you’re not paying attention. Also make sure Mr. Zabranski, OG of Opening Day Madness, gives you a prediction for the East, West, and Midwest. Thanks to keep it going.01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:22.000Stuart Winchester: signed Jeff Shaw. Uh, unfortunately, I am reading these as… as I’m recording this, so I did not ask Zabransky about East and Midwest, but… or, uh, East and West, but hopefully I asked him enough. As far as, uh, Peak, Indy, I think…01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:39.000Stuart Winchester: It’s more or less India is probably maxed out in the United States. I think it will continue to gain and lose partners and, and we’ll see it hold steady right now uh around. Well, I have the exact number. So I wanna just look at it. So India right now in the United States.01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:42.000Stuart Winchester: Has…01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:57.000Stuart Winchester: 146 partners. That’s a quarter of all the ski areas in the U.S, and a much higher percentage of all the ski areas that are public with chairlifts. So I think now, with Snowpass as a challenger, Indy will start to see.01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:13.000Stuart Winchester: not necessarily attrition, but I think you will see operators going back and forth between those passes, uh, as Snow Pass catches on. However, I think Indy Pass’s ceiling… I’ve written about this before.01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:25.000Stuart Winchester: I think they could get to 1,000 ski areas. Right now, they’re at 250, not counting the cross-country, and I know with cross-country, they’re over 300, but just their alpine ski areas. There’s about 6,000 ski areas in the world.01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:28.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Vail and Altera are only interested in.01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:44.000Stuart Winchester: between them, a couple hundred of them. So, I think that Indy, you know, 4,000 of those ski areas are in Europe. Indy could have 1,000 ski areas in Europe alone, if other market forces don’t intervene, and if they can bridge those cultural gaps. So, we’ll see. I remember having Doug Fish on the pod.01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:58.000Stuart Winchester: in, uh, 2020, and he said that he hoped to someday get IndyPass to 80 skiers, and so we see how… how that pass has grown. All right, that is gonna be our show for today. I will be back… well, I’m scheduled to be back tomorrow.01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:09.000Stuart Winchester: for a chat with the general manager of Monarch Martin, Colorado. I have never featured Monarch on the pod, I am stoked for that one.01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: The very best way to support the Storm Skiing Podcast is to upgrade to a paid subscription at stormskiing.com. That will get you access to all of my paid content, plus you’ll be able to participate in the.01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:25.000Stuart Winchester: Podcast by leaving a comment.01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:40.000Stuart Winchester: which I will read and respond to. You can also rep the Storm. Oh, I got this dope Storm shirt on today. You can buy Storm swag at stormskiing.myshopify.com. You can follow the Storm on YouTube and Instagram at stormskijournal.01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:47.000Stuart Winchester: Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.Stuff referenced in pod: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast supports bears, quadrangles, and liberal interpretations of The Iliad. Sign up for the free or paid newsletter to get updates on none of these things. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm’s short-form, news-focused podcast. Don’t worry, I will still write newsletters too. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm’s chat (also below). I’ll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Monday, Sept. 14.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 10th, 2026, and we have some big, big news in Ski World today.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: So one of the things that I focused on since launching the storm in 2019 is the rapid.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: Exponential growth in US based multi mountain ski passes and one of the biggest icon pass today released five new partners for the 2026 to 27 season. So I’m gonna break those down for you.00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: I am going to talk a little bit more about IndyPass and some of their partner shuffles. Then we are going to be joined by IndyPass owner, Eric Mogenson, who will give us a breakdown on all things happening with Indy, Black Mountain, and Entebeni Systems.00:06:46.000 --> 00:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: reader reaction, but I want to jump right into Icon Pass. Icon hits us today with, as I said, 5 new ski areas, 3 are full partners, and those… which means 7 days on the Icon Pass.00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: 5 days on the Icon Base Pass. All 3 are in Asia.00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:13.000Stuart Winchester: The first is Matarau, Japan. That will be ICON’s 10th ski resort in Japan.00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:28.000Stuart Winchester: And then, Icon, last year, was the first U.S.-based pass to add a ski area in China, and Icon adds two more today, though they’re nowhere near the ski area that it added last year. They are sort of close.00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:47.000Stuart Winchester: to each other. So, we’re gonna break those down first, and then ICON added two mountains to its two-day tier, uh, which it calls Bonus Mountains, which ICON insists are not ICON Pass members, uh, but I insist they are, because you can access them with your ICON Pass. Therefore, they are on.00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: the Icon Pass, no matter what Altera tells us. So, let’s start with Montreal, Japan, and if you’re on…00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.000Stuart Winchester: The…00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: If you’re on the video, I’m going to share my screen here because we’re going to do a little visual helping.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so let’s take this away. All right, so the first one I want to break down.00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.000Stuart Winchester: is…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:26.000Stuart Winchester: Madarao, Japan, and I’ve actually written about this ski area before, because they were an IndiePass member, and this is the article that I wrote back in 2023, when Madarao joined IndiePass, and Indie’s been a big leader in.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: building out a network in Japan. So, the ski resorts in Japan are interesting. I’ve not skied there, but I’ve been there in the summer and ridden the lifts around.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is very much like a mix of…00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: The Cottonwoods and New England. And what I mean by that is, if you’re looking at the screen here, you can see the stats on Mattarau. 512 inches of average annual snowfall.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:12.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but not a lot of vert, 1,444 feet, and as you can see from the trail map, if you’re looking here, it’s not a big trail footprint. So, what I mean when I say Cottonwoods is the snowfall, and when I say…00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.000Stuart Winchester: New England, I mean the size. They tend to be not huge vert, sort of compact. If they do have a lot of vert, like the Jacuba Valley ski resorts that are on Vail, they tend to go, uh, kind of straight up and be side by side. You don’t have a lot of the mega resorts as you would have.00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:40.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, or especially in Europe. So, it’s good that the passes are all building density in Japan, because the ski areas are not…00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: This is not a place that you would go to necessarily.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:02.000Stuart Winchester: like Vail Mountain and spend a week, or like Whistler. Another thing I want to note about Japan, you can see here that Matarau has some glade zones marked. In a lot of cases, skiing off-piste or in the trees, even though that’s what Japan is known for, in a lot of cases, my understanding is that that’s pretty heavily policed and forbidden.00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: So you really have to research your ski areas before you go over to figure out which ones will actually allow you to go off-piste, which is what most of us want to do, right? If we’re coming from North America, we’re going there for the big powder. Japan is a little more of an on-piste tradition.00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit more like Europe. So, I…00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:33.000Stuart Winchester: there’s… to underscore the scope of what we have now available to us in Japan as U.S.-based pass holders. So, with the addition of Madarao today.00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: Now, 53 ski areas in Japan have joined the Epic, Icon, Indy, or Mountain Collective Passes. And I actually, I want to show you something I have that’s really cool. So, I have this gigantic chart, and it’s kind of…00:10:49.000 --> 00:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: it’s kind of hard to navigate, but I’m slowly making it a little bit better. And so this is a chart that’s variously called a bunch of different things. Right now, I’m calling it the Encyclopedia Britannica. Sometimes it’s been the Passmaster.00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:17.000Stuart Winchester: 5,000. And I just kind of change the name whenever I want, but the link is always the same. And what I’ve… it’s a really slow Google Sheet, and I definitely need a better platform, but if you go, there’s all these tabs.00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: Down at the bottom, and again, this is where it’s nice to have the video, so you can see what I’m showing you here. So I have all these tabs. One of the tabs is all MegaPass ski areas. So I have this divided up, and these are just little tables that pivot off the main table, so all the stats are up to date.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000Stuart Winchester: So first, I have this…00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: chart here with all ski areas that are on any U.S.-based pass, and we’ll talk about that a little bit more in a second.00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Then I have…00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:59.000Stuart Winchester: all U.S. ski areas, then I have New England, I have Japan, so let’s pause on Japan for a moment. 53 ski areas, 11 Epic, 10 Icon, 32 Indy, 1 Mountain Collective. You can see all the stats down here. Again, not big.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: skiable acre footprints, and really, Japan measures things differently than North America. They tend to measure snowpack rather than inches of snowfall. I did find a good average annual snowfall chart on Powderhounds, which is a great site that I’ll talk more about.00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: for international research of ski areas. But if you see these acreage totals, you know, there’s really nothing much.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:35.000Stuart Winchester: Here’s Niseko United, it’s 2,100 acres, that’s 5 ski resorts combined, right next to each other. Rasutsu is, uh, is 2,000, but most of these are under…00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: 500, so you really prepare yourself for that. It’s one place, I think, Japan, where it would help to get a guide. Everything tends to be pretty cheap once you get on the ground. In Japan, the lift tickets are nothing, so having someone to show you around and show you where you can go under the ropes.00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:57.000Stuart Winchester: is a good idea. And, you know, I want to jump ahead to reader feedback for a moment. So I had…00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: this comment from Allison Wood. She said, I look forward to seeing your future efforts. I know there’s enough in American skiing to discuss, but I’d be curious if you would further discuss European Alps destinations. It seems to be growing in popularity due to competitive pricing versus U.S.00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:28.000Stuart Winchester: Western resorts. A week at Big Sky appears to be the same price as a week in Switzerland for those in the Eastern USA. The answer is absolutely yes. I do want to cover the Alps and Japan and all of these international destinations more.00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: I don’t have the personal on-the-ground knowledge base with those ski areas that I do with the U.S. ski areas, so I’m reaching out to my contacts in Europe, in Japan, who know these resorts intimately, and I’m gonna bring them on the show to try to help us make sense, because if you go back.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: We go back to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a second.00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.000Stuart Winchester: You’ll see that…00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: The, uh… if I can get to it…00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so Japan has 53 ski areas, Canada has another 55, and most of us can sort those out easily enough. The harder ones is Europe. I mean, Europe, there’s 61 ski areas, and sometimes a ski area in Europe is, you know.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: 10 ski areas that put together are as big as all the ski areas in Utah. So I really need some help to break those down. But that’s the great thing about this new format is that it will allow me to bring in more voices more frequently since there’s more frequent shows. All right.00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: Icon also today added two ski areas in China, and the best site to just get the basics of any ski area in the world is, I’ve found, skiresort.com. They have a profile of every ski area. They tend to keep it up to date. I don’t know who runs the site.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: I would like to connect with them at some point, but this is really my go-to for… so this is Betahu, I’m sure I’m pronouncing that wrong, one of the ski areas that ICON added in China, and they have all the basic information, the elevation, which is not high, it’s all in meters, obviously, out of the U.S.00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what I really like is the lift breakdown and the trail map. So, the… the thing about the ski areas in China.00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: is just like everything else in China, they’re pretty much brand new. I read this really interesting.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: quote in the New York Times several years ago, and the notion.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: was basically China…00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:31.000Stuart Winchester: stayed pretty much in the 19th century for all of the 20th century, and then it got to the 21st century in about 10 years. So, you go there, there’s high-speed rail, everything’s new, there’s new buildings. The ski resorts are new as well, and you can see this in their lift fleet. I mean, this…00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.000Stuart Winchester: You know, they have a…00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: six eight-person gondolas, one six-person gondola, two high-speed six-packs, three high-speed detached quads, no fixed grip lifts at all, and then you take a look at the trail map, and again, this is probably a little more like Japan, where these are.00:15:49.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit smaller ski areas than what we’re used to, uh, as far as the Mountain West. But, you know, it’s all very well interconnected. I would expect a lot of on-piste skiing. You know, with a… with a immature ski culture, I wouldn’t expect a lot of glade stuff.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: to be developed. Kind of talking on my rear end, to be honest, because I’ve not skied in China or even been to China, but these are my perceptions with the different ski cultures I know. I’ll try to track down someone who knows better. Here’s the other Icon Pass resort, Lake Songwa Resort, and I want to make…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:30.000Stuart Winchester: that we kind of have an Aspen-Crested Butte situation going on here, so Sangua and, uh, this other one they added, uh…00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:49.000Stuart Winchester: Beidou, there, as you can see on this Google map, they’re 24 miles apart in the mountains, but it looks like about a 4-hour drive, so there’s not really a road through the city. It’s the same kind of deal with Aspen and Crested Butte, where they’re pretty close, but it’s a long drive around. These are seasonal roads that Google doesn’t know about, so it’s about a 5-hour drive in the winter.00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: I believe. So…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: We have these, and then, if you want to go to China to experience skiing, Icon gives you the means to do so. And then, Icon added…00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: to their 2-day tier, which again, they’re saying is not IconPass. I want to talk about the 2-day tier a little bit in general. So, Icon started this 2-day tier.00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:23.000Stuart Winchester: last year, and I think what they were trying to do is mirror what Vail did.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:37.000Stuart Winchester: with its feeder ski areas and all these little places that are bought all over the country, Mount Brighton in Michigan, and Afton Alps in Minnesota, and Wilmot in Wisconsin, and all the resorts around Cleveland.00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: and you know, Alpine Valley. And then there’s the names escaping me. Boston Mills, Brandywine. I just skied there and did a write-up on it. So so yeah, they’re.00:17:49.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: Vail bought up all these ski areas. Well, Icon, instead of doing that and buying, has added two days only on the full Icon Pass, which is currently $1,449, uh, two days to 11 different ski areas around the country.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: It’s been growing that list. Silver Star was one last year, and it converted to full Icon, but right now, if you’re on the screen share, you can see the 11 that are currently on the Icon Pass two-day roster. So we…00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000Stuart Winchester: had today the additions of Cabarfay Peaks in Michigan.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: In Wyoming, we had snowy range. So Caberfay Peaks is actually, it’s an awesome ski area. It’s one of my favorite ski areas. I grew up about an hour and 15 minutes from there.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000Stuart Winchester: And with Cabot Fay, it…00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:55.000Stuart Winchester: It’s a really fun place. They’re constantly building it up. And what the cabaret you see today is very different than the cabaret that existed a long time ago. It basically used to be a two mile sprawl of rope tows and starting in the 1980s.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the families that owned it dug up from the bottom here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: and added to the top. So they went from a couple hundred vertical feet to 485 vertical feet, and it continued to…00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:18.000Stuart Winchester: expand, and they have another expansion in the works over here on Green Mountain. Should be coming 27-28, and I’m gonna have Tim and Pete Meyer from Calgary Fay Peaks on next week to talk about that a little more.00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.000Stuart Winchester: And then we have…00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s Snowy Range, Wyoming, and Snowy Range might seem like a little bit of a weird one, but Snowy Range is actually very logical. They’ve had a long-standing relationship that’s in southern Wyoming. It’s not, it’s only a couple hours from Steamboat. They have a long-standing relationship with Steamboat.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:51.000Stuart Winchester: to a snowy range season pass for 300 and some dollars this year. They changed that to half off in a 3 day icon session pass, which is good at Steamboat and several other mountains. And now, if you have a full icon, you would also get 2 more days at Steamboat.00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, or you would actually get 2 days at Snowy Range.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: if you were, you know, wanted to escape the crowds at Steamboat one day. So, we are gonna…00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Come back to…00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass in a moment. Actually, I have one more IndyPass update, then I’m gonna go to Eric. So, Mission Ridge and Blacktail in Washington have left IndyPass.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Hold on, let me just…00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: So Eric, I’ll be right there.00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: We’ll get to Mission to Blacktail in a minute. I’m gonna bring Eric in.00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I’m going to stop my screen share.00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Eric?00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000Erik Mogensen: What’s up, man?00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: How you doing? Joining us now is the director of IndyPass, the founder of Entebeni Systems, and the operator of Black Mountain, New Hampshire. Eric Mogenson is a good friend of the storm, and he joins us now from where? Where are you, Eric?00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:05.000Erik Mogensen: I am, uh, calling in from Black Mountain, New Hampshire, our new home, and I’m up at the Alpine Cabin.00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:18.000Stuart Winchester: I want to start on the Alpine Cabin. Tell us what the Alpine Cabin was when you arrived at Black Mountain and what it has turned into from what it is and from a revenue standpoint.00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.000Erik Mogensen: Yep.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:34.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, so, um, I spend the first 8 to 10 hours of my day working with our engineering and product teams, and most of it is in front of a computer or on the phone, but by 5 PM I try to be up here on the mountain every.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:52.000Erik Mogensen: night. Like, doing trail work, on the excavator, snowmaking, lift work. But I keep a desk up here in the summer. Couldn’t keep a desk here in the winter. Um, but I do keep a desk up here so that when I have an idea, or I want to come write something down, or I want to watch a YouTube video, or do something, this place is super productive for me.00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:11.000Erik Mogensen: It’s like my peaceful, happy place in the summer. In the winter, there is nothing peaceful about this place. This, this place rages, uh, European style. So, when we took over Black Mountain, the Alpine cabin, the credit card receipts from the Alpine cabin the year before.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:22.000Erik Mogensen: were $38,000, uh, for the season in sales. Um, and the year after, our first year that we took it over, it was over $300,000.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.000Erik Mogensen: Um, and then our second year, it was over $600,000, and most of that comes down to champagne.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:38.000Erik Mogensen: But don’t look at champagne as something you drink. Champagne is something that you use to celebrate. And so I think.00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:50.000Erik Mogensen: The long-winded answer to your question is, is the Alpine cabin is truly a place to celebrate the sport and culture of skiing, and people are definitely holding on to that.00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:03.000Stuart Winchester: It’s an amazing space, and if folks aren’t familiar with Black Mountain, that’s the main double chair to the summit right behind you, and it goes right over the alpine cabin. It’s a party scene, and it’s a lot of fun.00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Erik Mogensen: Oh, yeah.00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Going from $38,000 to $600,000, 20X in revenue, I mean, Eric, that’s the kind of revenue stream that could change the path of a lot of small ski areas. Is that replicable, do you think, at some of these smaller family-owned ski areas around the country that.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: are really tied to old revenue models and just need a little spark.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I don’t know if you can scale the champagne necessarily, but you can definitely scale.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:51.000Erik Mogensen: the focus on the culture of skiing. And I think that’s really what the independents do so well, is that, you know, the wood fireplaces smell authentic, the people are very authentic, the ski trails are authentic, they’re weird, they’re quirky, the lifts are slow, right?00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:06.000Erik Mogensen: Those a lot of people look at those things. We’ve been programed as skiers to see those things as liabilities. They’re actually our biggest assets. And so, yeah, the Alpine, you know, the Alpine cabin was a little 200 square foot patrol shack.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000Erik Mogensen: that sold some, you know, beer and hot dogs.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:21.000Erik Mogensen: But we never looked at that as a liability. We never looked at that as, hey, we need to go build a 20,000 square foot mid-mountain lodge, take on a ton of debt.00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:32.000Erik Mogensen: Um, we really looked at it as an opportunity, and I think every single small ski area has that exact same opportunity to focus on the authenticity of the product that they deliver.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:48.000Stuart Winchester: There’s been a ripple effect, too. I mean, what can you tell us about skier visits before and after you purchased it? Because Black, for background, for people who are not familiar with Black, the reason you own Black is because they announced they were closing on Facebook. They said, we’re done. The skier has been open since 1930, whatever.00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: said, we’re done, this was 3 years ago, and you said, no. And you tried to find a buyer, looked for a year, uh, and decided to buy it yourself. So, so…00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You took a dying skier, what did the skier visits revenue look like when you got it, and what do they look like today?00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:15.000Erik Mogensen: It was about $700,000, $750,000 in top line revenue when we bought the whole ski area. Yeah, including the $32,000 in hot dogs and beer at this cabin.00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: That’s the whole ski area.00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:27.000Erik Mogensen: Um, so it was the entire ski area. I don’t quite know what the skier visits were. Um, we know what the ticketed visits were, but I would guesstimate that the skier visits were somewhere between, you know, 10 and 15,000.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:43.000Erik Mogensen: Um, in our second year, we took it to $2.5 million in top line revenue. Um, we’ve surpassed $5 million, uh, here in our 25th or 26th month. And skier visits, you know, all in, including employees and the whole thing, right about 55,000.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:48.000Erik Mogensen: So it’s been a big turnaround. It’s been interesting, learned a lot.00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000Erik Mogensen: And.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000Erik Mogensen: I think this is 100% doable by most of the smallest areas on the planet.00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.000Erik Mogensen: You just have to realize that if you want a different and better result, you have to take different and better action.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, you proved me wrong, because I, you know…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:16.000Stuart Winchester: I thought Black had maybe just had its time, because it’s surrounded by two Vail Own Mountains and Cranmore, which is a high-speed lift. Sunday River is right down the road. Uh, you have intense competition from Epic.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: and… and Black Mountain is not an especially snowy mountain, like, say, Smuggler’s Notch, we’ll talk about in a minute. I… I didn’t know if… if it had enough aura.00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: But it seems like you’ve either tapped the aura or created it, and really turned it around, and really given me a lot of hope that a lot of the ski areas that we see around the country, that…00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:45.000Stuart Winchester: Seem to be up against this modernization curve, they can’t quite get ahead, might be able to take other routes to get there.00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:00.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, and I think, too, Stu, it’s worth noting, like, yeah, I’m proud of what we’ve done here, but there’s a lot of really good operators out there that have done this, too. You know, having grown up in Buffalo, which I’ll call, like, the Eastern Midwest of the Midwest.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000Erik Mogensen: Right? There’s really well-managed ski areas that focus on the food and beverage, that focus on the authenticity, um, that drive a ton of other revenue.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:23.000Erik Mogensen: Um, that are creative, uh, in that way, and I think we just have to be accepting of those things. We have to be accepting of them, we have to share what works, uh, share what doesn’t work, and collaborate, um.00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:29.000Erik Mogensen: And and then we’ll be fine. We’ll be fine. These little skier is have a huge advantage.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:39.000Erik Mogensen: in the fact that they are… they are run by authentic and passionate people. That… they… they are… they are run…00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:46.000Erik Mogensen: not as a profit center. Um, and yes, they need to be profitable to be sustainable and have reinvestment, right? But…00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.000Erik Mogensen: These little ski areas have such a remarkable advantage over some of the big areas.00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:57.000Erik Mogensen: and and how they’re managed and what their direction looks like. We just have to take advantage of it and talk about it more.00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:06.000Stuart Winchester: this is just the beginning of the story, too. All right, let’s switch over to Andy Pass, and, you know, my questions around Black, when you were initially taking it over, were…00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:24.000Stuart Winchester: how many retro ski areas does New England have room for in a market? Like, Mad River Glen has crafted its whole image around being this retro ski area. You know, they groom, they make snow up to 2,000 whatever feet, the single chair is a 1940 whatever, but they rebuilt it in 2007, so…00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.000Stuart Winchester: It is a well-maintained place.00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:42.000Stuart Winchester: as sort of like a museum. It’s… it’s… it’s… the facade is old school, and it skis that way, but really, it’s… it’s been well tended to. Smuggler’s Notch is another one of those that feels like 1960s, around 1960s haul lifts, including.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: One of the longest in the country, the Madonna lift. Uh, and I saw black in that same mold and said, okay, how many of these do we have room for? But Smuggs is, at the end of the day, a awesome ski area, and you added it to IndyPass. I mean, how big of a victory is that for New England skiers?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: to now have Smuggs, Jay, Waterville, all these ski areas on the one pass.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000Erik Mogensen: I mean, look, you’ve got… you’ve got Smogs, you’ve got Jay, you’ve got Bolton, you’ve got Cannon, you’ve got Waterville, um.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:28.000Erik Mogensen: we’ve really leveled the playing field in the East, and it’s exactly what we intend to do in other places of the country, and also around the world. Uh, and I think what we’re proving here in New England, there’s been a lot of focus with IndyPass in New England over the last two years, and a lot of that has to do.00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:44.000Erik Mogensen: With Black Mountain and our move and our things there. But what we’re proving we can do here, we are going to replicate in other markets. There’s no question in my mind. And I think what we’re going to replicate is the fact that you don’t have to be epic. You don’t have to be iconic.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.000Erik Mogensen: to be a really stable, well-earning business. You can be part of an independent group.00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:09.000Erik Mogensen: and still push and plow forward, and compete. So, you know, and I… look, I don’t judge a ski area by its vertical. Don’t judge a ski area by how many high-speed lifts it has. I think that’s the mistake that we keep getting pulled into in skiing. And our… it’s the mistake that we make as well as operators, and we…00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:16.000Erik Mogensen: we pass that mistake on to the consumers, right? Bigger is not better, it’s just bigger.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:33.000Erik Mogensen: Faster is not better. It’s just faster, right? More lifts. Sure, that sounds great, but you have to pay for those lifts as well. And so that is going to there’s that money doesn’t just come from the sky that that money is going to be passed on to the consumer.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:41.000Erik Mogensen: And the more and more we continue to do that, the more and more expensive and exclusive skiing’s gonna become. So, again, I’ll bring it back to…00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:51.000Erik Mogensen: One of the greatest advantages these places have are being small, are having slow lifts, are being independent, are being authentic. And that’s exactly what Smugs is.00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:01.000Stuart Winchester: However, SMUGS also has 2,600 feet of vertical, 1,000 acres of skiing, and 322 inches of average snowfall. The numbers do help.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:08.000Erik Mogensen: They do, but I’ll leave the numbers to your spreadsheets that I can barely understand at this point.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: The numbers do help, though, it’s offline.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Well, that makes two of us and probably everyone else.00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.000Erik Mogensen: Those will speak for themselves.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so having Jay and Smugs on there is an awesome combo. You know, I think that…00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: Indy and Doug before you, when Doug… I know Doug’s still heavily involved, but the founder of the Indy Pass, Doug Fish. I think you have done a great job of building these little nodes of skiing.00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:44.000Stuart Winchester: around the country, and now around the world. So the… the donut hole has always kind of been Colorado, Utah, Tahoe, and that’s because that’s where Epic and Icon logically went. Those are the three biggest ski markets. But I want to talk a little bit first about the Midwest, where.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:59.000Stuart Winchester: Indy built a really nice network, and you have a lot of ski areas in the Midwest. You have… 37. Uh, you’ve had some big departures this year. Lutzen, Granite Peak, and Snow River, run by Midwest Family Ski Resorts.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:16.000Stuart Winchester: Went over to Icon, and Lutzen is, for the listeners, biggest ski area in Minnesota. It skis like a New England ski area. Granite Peak, you know, lots of high-speed lifts. Charles Skinner really turned that place from a dump into something nice. And the Snow River’s on the come up. It’s in a nice snow belt in Michigan.00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, you know, how much…00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000Stuart Winchester: Did you see those as drivers of IndyPass sales in the Midwest? And how concerned, if at all, are you that they departed?00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:41.000Erik Mogensen: Well, look, let’s… let’s talk… I mean, the moose in the room here is that that… that loss sucks for us. Like, there’s no way around it. Um, it… it… it’s a bummer. It stings. Uh, I really like Charles Skinner. I really like Charlotte. I think they’re both.00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:57.000Erik Mogensen: really great operators. They’re very, very smart. They’re very, very sharp. We had a we had a great call around when we kind of showed them what the revenue was in their last season, and we talked through it, and very, very amicable. I’ve always relied. Have some great, you know, dinner conversations with Charles.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:12.000Erik Mogensen: And and I think they’re great. They they have to make a move. They made a business decision to go to Icon and Icon makes that very, very, very attractive. You know whether or not that initial sales pitch.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:29.000Erik Mogensen: translates into the long-term vision? I don’t know. I firmly believe that, you know, Midwest skiers are some of the most authentic and purposeful, you know, skiers on the continent, and they’ll figure it out. I think we have lots of options, there’s no question.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:38.000Erik Mogensen: But none of them are going to be quite like those Midwest family resorts. And so we’ll have to see what happens. It stings, but I don’t.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000Erik Mogensen: What I’ve really learned about Indy is that.00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.000Erik Mogensen: Our our strength is in the diversity of of.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:56.000Erik Mogensen: the resorts that we’ve put together. It’s not on a… it’s not on a single one resort, or a single resort operator. Um, so…00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:01.000Erik Mogensen: I hate losing resorts, but I’m never afraid to lose them and/or replace them if necessary.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: So, when they go to ICON, there’s a couple different tiers for ICON. So, Midwest family went to the traditional 7-5 tier of 7 on full ICON, 5 on ICON base. Today.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:19.000Stuart Winchester: I kind of announced that Cabaret, a former IndyPass partner that actually just left Indy, was a founding member in 2019.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:32.000Stuart Winchester: left for Icon. That news just broke. I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that. Buck Hill similarly left Indy for Icon today, a couple of years ago. Is that too new to process, or what are your thoughts on Cabra Fact?00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I think it’s exactly the same where, you know, we, we, you know, Cabrifay is a great ski area. Um, we’re sad to see them go. We, you know, look, they’re independent for a reason. They get to make their choice. They’ve made their choice. They’re going to go to Icon. The consumers can make their choice of where they go and where they want to.00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:05.000Erik Mogensen: they want to spend their time and money. You know, we’re going to fight as hard as we can to drive as much value for the operators and the consumers as possible. I can tell you, we had some people that had left for that icon two day product that now want to come back because of the payout.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000Erik Mogensen: Or lack thereof. So, look, none of this is static. One thing I can absolutely guarantee everybody on the pass and everyone listening to this is, is this is going to happen every single year forever. You’re going to have people come, you’re going to have people go. And we’re all going to think it’s way more consequential.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:33.000Erik Mogensen: than it actually is. The reality is, is that indie sales for the last 7 seasons continue to go like this, and we’re directing more and more.00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:39.000Erik Mogensen: revenue, meaningful revenue to these independent resorts. And that’s not going to stop.00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. The, uh… another place you have…00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: Good.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:55.000Stuart Winchester: cluster is the Pacific Northwest. Mission Ridge and Blacktail, which are jointly owned, recently announced that they left, and I reached out.00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: to…00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: COO and GM Matt Neubauer, and I just asked him, you know, what’s going on, and this was his email, this is a quote.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge’s agreement ran through the end of the 25-26 season, and we declined to seek a new one. Being independent means making the calls we think are right for the mountain long term.00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, that’s basically echoing what you just said, the mountains will make the right decision. Uh, Blacktail’s situation is different. This is a continuation of the email. Uh, they reached out to establish a new agreement before the old one ended and did not get engagement on it. Indy did reach out after passes, went back on sale September 1st, but by then, Blacktail had moved on.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: and was preparing for the season ahead. So that was the rationale that I have for Matt. He didn’t want to talk about it further publicly, but that was his on-the-record statement.00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:59.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I, I, you know, look, Stu, I, I think as good as it is for your ratings, you know, I, we’re not gonna hang out every, every scary as, you know, laundry and every single conversation. Um, I would disagree with how that was had. I think, I think one of the greatest things about India is we have.00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:09.000Erik Mogensen: 300-plus resorts around the world. One of the hard things about Indy is that we have 300-plus resorts around the world. It’s a lot of contracts to manage, it’s a lot of things.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:19.000Erik Mogensen: I could, like, tell you from the ski area operating, um, perspective, like, I feel everything’s nice and chill all summer, and we’re doing really good, and then all of a sudden it’s, you know.00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:35.000Erik Mogensen: September 1st, and it’s like, wow, we got a lot to do in the next 60 days before we make snow. And I think every single ski area operator runs through that. Uh, and there’s a lot going back. Stu, sometimes I have to go look at your spreadsheets to understand who’s on the pass.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:52.000Erik Mogensen: That’s why we usually give everything to you ahead of time so that you can, like, count them up and do the math and do everything. So it’s hard. But I would say, that team at Blacktail is world class. Jesse is and is incredible. We’ve I’ve always had a great relationship with Jesse.00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:08.000Erik Mogensen: We’d welcome them on the pass. I don’t think that that’s changed. And I think that Blacktail and Mission Ridge are two very different ski areas. And I’m really fascinated and hopeful that they figure out a way.00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.000Erik Mogensen: how to make the whole thing work between the two of them.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you still have a really nice set of resorts out there with White Pass, and 49 Degrees North, and Mount Hood Meadows, and Bluewood, and Brundage, and Tamarack. And Tamarack’s interesting, because so Tamarack, and I want to clarify this, I’ve actually gotten a lot of inquiries about this, people emailing me telling me my charts are wrong.00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which… which happens, you know, they’re… they’re big and… and, uh, unwieldy, so I get things wrong, but that’s… they’re always a work in progress. But, uh, they’re telling me Tamarack’s not in the past because they joined Icon today, which… which obviously they did. Uh…00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000Stuart Winchester: So what’s going on with Tamarack? Are they on Indy?00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:59.000Erik Mogensen: Tamarack’s on Indy, um, you know, we’re excited about Tamarack, we’ve always been excited about Tamarack. Again, Scott, really great operator, um, super smart guy, great ownership group.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:13.000Erik Mogensen: You know, I think we could probably comment on that a little bit further. But you know my job is not to speak for these resorts, Stu. My my job is to support them, and there’s a difference between supporting them and speaking for them.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000Erik Mogensen: So, I’ll always support them, and what Tamarack decides to do and where they decide to sit is good, but.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000Erik Mogensen: I’m comfortable saying that Tamarack’s on Indy.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, in general, you know, when Buck Hill joined the Icon 2 Day last year, you said adios. I think that’s what was my understanding from a distance, correct me if I’m wrong. What was different about the Tamarack situation? Why are you making the exception for Tamarack?00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:52.000Erik Mogensen: Look, I think, look, Icon’s aggressive. They’re aggressive. They’re trying to add as many people as they possibly can to that two-day pass. You know, I think that there’s a lot of promises on that, and I think they have a very aggressive sales team.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:08.000Erik Mogensen: Which is which is good. They’re they’re, you know, trying to replicate what Indy has done. So we’ll just have to see what happens. But I would say that I would I would say that, you know, I have a I have a good relationship with a couple people over in that organization.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:15.000Erik Mogensen: And I think they’re trying to figure out what they’re going to do. But there’s no question that we’re in, you know, pretty intense competition right now.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let’s…00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:32.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up on that. Let’s talk about Snow King, because the Indy Pass, you know, part of the reason the Indy Pass is able to grow so fast, from my point of view, was Doug had this great insight that the ski areas that Epic and Icon were overlooking.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Did have value collected onto a pass, and when you put them all together as a dynamite product.00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:47.000Stuart Winchester: and now I think, as you said, ICON’s going for that, and then you have the Snow Pass, and the Snow Pass, uh…00:40:47.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: has signed Snow King as a partner, and that’s a long-time Indy Pass partner, and I can read these emails if you’d like, or you can just talk through it yourself on how you see the Snow King.00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000Stuart Winchester: um…00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.000Stuart Winchester: conflict here.00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, look, I wouldn’t really say that there is any controversy here. I think Snow King is staying on Indy. Um, you know, Ryan and I never discussed any sort of litigation, and I connected him directly with you so that he could, you know, explain the situation for himself.00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:36.000Erik Mogensen: Look, again, it’s not my job to get out in front and speak for these resorts. These are really great resorts with phenomenal and sophisticated operators, and they can speak for themselves. So, what I can do, Stu, is, you know, say, hey, Ryan.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Erik Mogensen: you know, you’re on Indy, and you’re not on the snow pass, copy you on that email, and then you can read the email to the group.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the email…00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.000Stuart Winchester: from Ryan said.00:41:51.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Stuart, hi Stuart, this is Ryan Stanley, General Manager of Snow King. That is correct, we’re going to remain on the Indy Pass this upcoming season and also offer two free tickets to the Snow Pass holders without receiving compensation, meaning Snow King will not receive compensation.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:16.000Stuart Winchester: We are fairly desperate for some skier visits and are working on an offer for free and or $20 tickets to other pass holders as well. You know, I…00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000Stuart Winchester: Ran this…00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000Stuart Winchester: Snow pass and.00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.000Stuart Winchester: I can read this email from Joe Heschen that he sent me today.00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:33.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, he said, Hi Stuart, I’m a bit confused by how this has become so complex. As stated, we have signed a signed agreement with Snow King.00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: While I would like to keep their details confidential, you are welcome to share ours. Our goal with this is not to profit, but rather to gather a group to work together for the betterment of the industry.00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And then, it sounds like Snow King will be working with Indy and Snow Pass this season, which is great news for them. Thank you. Go Hessian. So, from Snow Pass’s point of view, Snow King is still on both passes.00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:16.000Erik Mogensen: I don’t know, Stu’s starting to sound like a big old, you know, fun high school group text message here. I don’t, I, you know, I don’t know what to tell you. Um, again, I think Ryan’s email’s pretty clear. I’m not gonna speak for Ryan, not gonna speak for Joe. Um, they’re definitely, you know, Snow King is definitely on the Indy Pass. We’re definitely gonna pay them, just like we have.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:21.000Erik Mogensen: every year. We’re definitely gonna push a lot of visits to them. Um, you know, I’m not…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Erik Mogensen: entirely sure, uh, beyond that. Uh, and, and, you know, Ryan, again, Ryan’s a really smart guy. I’ve enjoyed talking to him. Um, I’ve spent a…00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:49.000Erik Mogensen: few, you know, longer phone calls, and he is desperate for skier visits, and I get that. He’s a small skier area in the shadow of Jackson Hole, and doesn’t have a ton of population to pull from. Most of the population that’s coming through is destination visits.00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:57.000Erik Mogensen: And he needs more skier visits. We… we want Snow King to get skier visits. We… we… and if Ryan wants to comp…00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:07.000Erik Mogensen: you know, snow pass holders, or icon pass holders, or epic pass holders, then that’s fine. I think that’s great. But just because Ryan is going to comp.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Erik Mogensen: the Snow Pass doesn’t mean that he’s on the Snow Pass, and just because Ryan is going to comp Icon Pass holders, that doesn’t mean that he’s joined the Icon Pass. Um, all I can come down to, again.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:27.000Erik Mogensen: is that Snow King’s on the Indy Pass, um, and from our perspective, they’re giving some free tickets to some of the other passes.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:35.000Erik Mogensen: Hopefully, that checks everyone’s box for early September ski area drama.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: All right, it is an ongoing story. I just have a lot of conflicting information from…00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:56.000Erik Mogensen: What we should do is just, you know, get Uncle Joe on the call, and get Ryan on the call, and you on the call, and we all talk about it, right? Like, I think it’s… I don’t think it’s that complicated, and frankly, it’s not that big of a deal.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:12.000Erik Mogensen: And I question the intentions behind making it a big deal. I think that, you know, Snowpass is definitely looking for us to bite into a controversy, and we’re just not going to.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:22.000Erik Mogensen: We’re just not going to. We… our job is to focus on the independent resorts and make sure that we drive more visits to more independent resorts.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000Erik Mogensen: more often.00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:31.000Erik Mogensen: It’s really simple, you know, and I think, I think in general too, Stu, like, you know.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Do you? Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:46.000Erik Mogensen: What I’ve gotten from a lot of our operators and partners and people in skiing is they’re just very confused by this. And again, it might be good for ratings or listeners, but there is no litigation here.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:56.000Erik Mogensen: there is no problem with Snow King. They’re a great, valued partner. You know, this comment, you know, an idea around democratizing skiing, right? Like.00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:08.000Erik Mogensen: you know, let’s let every resort build their own reciprocal deal with, you know, Jersey Joe’s commission-based software pitch, right? That’s cute, that sounds nice, but in practice, IndiePass exists for a reason.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.000Erik Mogensen: It’s a lot more work for skier is and most importantly.00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:20.000Erik Mogensen: It’s much more fragmented and a confusing product for the consumer. A single pass with a single price point.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000Erik Mogensen: And a lot of partners.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:28.000Erik Mogensen: you know, mitigates the patchwork of one-off deals, and that’s the whole reason IndyPass exists.00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:37.000Erik Mogensen: More people skiing more often at independent resorts, right? Like, we redirect tens of millions of dollars a year to independent operators.00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.000Erik Mogensen: Arguing that somehow the absence of the IndyPass is better for the industry is nonsensical at best. It would just give Icon and Epic a more…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.000Erik Mogensen: More opportunity to eat our lunch. So…00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000Erik Mogensen: you know, we can… we can dive into all the muddy details all day long, but I don’t see any controversy here. We’re super excited to have snowpack… I mean…00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.000Erik Mogensen: Snow King.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.000Erik Mogensen: on the Indy Pass. Um, and, you know, maybe you just have to come up with a different color for it on your spreadsheet, like some sort of gradient between the two. Whatever you want to do, we trust you.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Stuart Winchester: Let me zoom out a little and make this a little more conceptual, because you’ve told me before that IndyPass doesn’t make money, and I believe you’re still sticking to Doug’s original ratio of 15% for admin, which I doubt covers admin. So 85% traditionally was paid out to the resorts, correct?00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:49.000Erik Mogensen: Correct. Oh, yeah. Still the case. Yeah. No, I mean, look, we, we, you know, 85% of every passport just goes back to the independents. And remember, look, we, we take 100% of our money in on credit cards. We pay the ski resorts in check cash. Right. So we’re also eating that credit card fee.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.000Stuart Winchester: Is that still it? Okay.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:59.000Erik Mogensen: So now you’re down to, you know, 12% in change. Running a pass like this, it’s not profitable. We never looked at this as being profitable.00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:10.000Erik Mogensen: I really bought IndyPass because I knew that Doug was going to exit and needed to exit, and I thought some of the other people that would buy the pass.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Erik Mogensen: would view it more as a media company or a marketing opportunity, and less of something that I think is very important for the independents. So…00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:39.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, you know, Snowpass has committed to giving 80% back, um, to the resorts in their first year, and then something else beyond that, right? And the difference between 80% and 5%, right? You know, it sounds like 5%, but if you actually do the math, that’s a 25% difference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:49.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, and so we pay every resort the same percentage back of their, you know, top ticket price. We’ve always done that, um, so…00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.000Erik Mogensen: That’s what we do, that’s what we’ve done, that’s what worked, and that’s what we.00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: So to zoom out to the conceptual level a little bit here, I want to look at…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Snow King’s neighbor, Jackson Hole. Okay, so Jackson Hole is on Icon. They’re also on Mountain Collective. You’ve taken a pretty firm stand that Indy.00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:16.000Stuart Winchester: partners should be exclusive with Indy. If you’re looking at a ski area like Snow King that is desperate for.00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: for visits.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: why cut that pathway off? Why is it important to make indie exclusive and not say, okay.00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: case by case, if you’re, uh, you know, certain resorts, if we don’t have an exclusivity agreement with you, like, maybe you want to give, you know, Brundage a higher payout because they’re a destination and… and to be exclusive, but maybe some of these other ones, you give them all the tools in the toolbox. What…00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.000Stuart Winchester: Why is that not an option? Or is it an option?00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I just, I think it complicates things, number one. Number two, I just don’t find it very equitable. The great thing about IndyPass, look, I get…00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:58.000Erik Mogensen: There’s a lot of conversations all the time when we have a larger resort wanting to join, or has joined, or wants to renew about getting a bigger payout.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:08.000Erik Mogensen: What I can tell you for as long as I own and run IndyPass, I’m going to treat every single resort the same. I’m not going to make special side deals.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:14.000Erik Mogensen: That’s just what we’re going to do. I think it’s a mistake to do that.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:20.000Erik Mogensen: Everyone’s going to get the same. Everyone’s going to be the same. Everyone’s going to get the same percentage payout.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.000Stuart Winchester: It.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.000Erik Mogensen: No special deals.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: So let me wrap on that point. So you added Smugs, your New England network is lights out. You know, like I said, Jay, Smugs, Cannon, Waterville, Saddleback, and a bunch of smaller places, including Black Mountain. Doug was concerned when he started the pass.00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: About dilution in the marketplace, and if you put too many ski areas in a market, you would both cannibalize their season pass, and drive down their yield, or their eventual payout.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: you have filled in a lot more density, and when I’ve asked you about it in the past, you said that’s a data-driven decision, so can you break that down for us, and what gives you confidence that adding smugs is not going to take away from.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.000Stuart Winchester: Fulton Valley, or Jay Peak, or Cannon, or Titus.00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:23.000Erik Mogensen: Well, we know exactly how many pass holders we’re adding every single year, right? We, we have a unique control over how many passes we sell, right? So we have, we know the data that comes in on one lever and we 100% control the amount.00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:43.000Erik Mogensen: of passes in that lever that we sell. So it’s just simple math, right? It isn’t even that complex of a spreadsheet. Uh, you wouldn’t even have to have it in a spreadsheet. So we need to add enough customers to make sure that we don’t over dilute Bolton’s payout or those things. And what’s remarkable is the data shows us this is, I think now our fourth season.00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:49.000Erik Mogensen: of owning and operating the IndyPass is that we just keep going in the right direction.00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Erik Mogensen: And that’s the reality. Like, JPEAK and Bolton’s payout, the check that they get from IndyPass and take to the bank to pay their bills and buy more chairlifts and more snowmaking pipe and pay their employees, is only getting bigger and bigger.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.000Erik Mogensen: With smugs on the pass. And again, I cannot.00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:23.000Erik Mogensen: reiterate enough how sophisticated of an operator these guys are. Like, the DeLauriers are smart. They see the numbers, you know? Christian Knapp at PGRI, he sees the numbers. Steve Wright, these are smart guys. John Schaefer, the…00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:27.000Erik Mogensen: Really smart. You know, if they figure it out.00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.000Erik Mogensen: I think that that itself.00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jay has been, uh, has recommitted to Indy several times, uh, through one-year contracts. All right, Eric, IndyPass is still on sale?00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, 80 Pass is on sale right now, yes. I think what we’ve announced is we’ve said tomorrow’s the day. I think we could go into midday Saturday. Um, it’s… it’s hard to tell, right? We look at a couple numbers, we look at people that have put things in their cart, and what the potential conversion rate is, and where things go, and…00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:01.000Erik Mogensen: the geography around them. We definitely have a very firm ceiling on what we’re gonna sell.00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:10.000Erik Mogensen: When we’re going to sell that through, that’s the hard part. But yeah, we’ve identified that tomorrow’s the day.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: And this will be the end of 26-27 IndyPass sales guaranteed, or is there a chance for a flash December sale or something?00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:30.000Erik Mogensen: There is never a guarantee of anything in this thing. We are talking to some pretty major additions as well that I think would be meaningful, and we’ll have to decide if that’s a this year thing or a next year thing with them.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:46.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, you’ve already added over 40 new partners. India has more partners than Epic, Icon, Mountain Collective, Snowpass, and Mountain Collective Capital’s Powerpass combined around the world. So you’re saying we should expect or could expect more partners?00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Erik Mogensen: Alright.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.000Stuart Winchester: In advance of the 26-27 winter?00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:02.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that there will definitely be some more. And I think, Stu, it’s actually about 60 new additions. And I know you don’t like to count the cross-country ski areas, but we should maybe find a separate tab for them on the spreadsheet.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:12.000Erik Mogensen: Every ski area matters to us here, whether it’s cross country or downhill or big or small. I think that’s what makes us different.00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I didn’t start stop counting them out of malice. I stopped because I couldn’t really understand them, and the maps kind of looked like a brain scan, and some would leave, and it was just a lot. I was already trying to track too much.00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: I will take that piece of advice, though, and I will see if I can find a place where they make sense. Eric, really appreciate everything today, appreciate everything you’re doing with Indy and Black Mountain, and look forward to catching up with you again really soon.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah. Thanks so much, Stu. Keep those spreadsheets going, dude.00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright.00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.000Stuart Winchester: That’s all I do.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I know. See ya.00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000Erik Mogensen: Bye.00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Eric Mogensen, director of IndyPass, owner of Black Mountain, responding to some of the questions.00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: initial conversation I had with Joe Heschen the other day. So, uh, that’s great. We have no more clarity on Snow King, and this episode went a little off the rails, because I need to… there’s gonna be a lot of experimentation here, guys.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the opening take, I’m realizing, I don’t know if I should be recording that before the guest. I think maybe I need to start with the guest, because otherwise, I end up having to cut myself short. So…00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get to some reader reaction.00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000Stuart Winchester: To close us out today.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.000Stuart Winchester: The first comes from…00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: Matt Hart.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: He said, really, this is in reaction to Brian Norton’s interview yesterday about Loon Mountain’s expansion. Matt Hart, really good, loved Brian’s description of the expansion and how they will make it work from an operations point of view.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.000Stuart Winchester: Catcher’s mitt for snow, love it.00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: And then, and then Matt asks, did he give you grief for calling the Timbertown expansion that little one LOL? I, no, he didn’t, but, but it is, I mean, it was a 30 acre expansion on a huge ski area. So, uh, I don’t know, maybe, I think they, uh.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I’m always the tourist, so anytime I’m asking these guys anything, they… I think that it sounds a little ridiculous, because they live it every day of their life. It would be like them asking me a question about my cats, you know, it’s something that I’m around every day.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:46.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is a comment from Robert, a paid subscriber, which is the way you can interact with the show is to be a paid subscriber to the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:56:46.000 --> 00:57:00.000Stuart Winchester: Robert says, again, of the Brian Norton pod yesterday, great second effort. Are you planning to stick to a drop time of about 4 p.m. Eastern time? What is your anticipated schedule? Daily, four days a week, three?00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:07.000Stuart Winchester: 4pm drop makes for a nice way to wrap up the day, at least for those in a compatible time zone.00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: And then Brian Bench, paid subscriber, says, ditto on sharing the anticipated schedule. We humans are creatures of habit, and so would be great to know when we can generally expect these to land. Excited for your chat with Eric today. Well…00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000Stuart Winchester: Brian.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have an amazing guest.00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: scheduled for…00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:46.000Stuart Winchester: September 24th at 11 a.m. Eastern, Brian Bench, the founder of Snow Schoolers, which is rethinking the way that we do ski lessons, which, as we all know, is somewhat broken right now. So, Brian, I am previewing your appearance, which you already know about.00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:53.000Stuart Winchester: So, no, but those are… those are really fair questions about cadence and drop time. So, uh…00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:55.000Stuart Winchester: The way I envision this…00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:58.000Stuart Winchester: It can’t be daily.00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:07.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it can be daily sometimes. There will be seasons, surge seasons. This is one surge season, post-Labor Day.00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:15.000Stuart Winchester: up to Christmas, when everyone’s getting hyped for ski season, everyone’s looking for content, everyone’s debuting their new terrain, their new lifts.00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:25.000Stuart Winchester: Then there’s going to be March, that’s another surge season, where all the new passes are coming out. And I’ll do a daily, maybe sometimes a couple times a day.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:31.000Stuart Winchester: for, uh, for the first couple weeks of March, because that’s when Icon, Epic, Indy, everyone drops.00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:32.000Stuart Winchester: Um…00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:36.000Stuart Winchester: Then there’ll be down seasons. I have to ski.00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:56.000Stuart Winchester: It’s, uh, I have to get out there, you know, I ski about 50 days a year, I hit 50 or 60 different ski areas, and I do most of that skiing from the 1st of January, uh, till about mid-April or so. So, with the exception of that March surge season, I’m gonna shoot for 2 podcasts per week.00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:08.000Stuart Winchester: January, February, and the rest of ski season. Sometimes fewer, because there are going to be a couple weeks where I go away and might not be able to do them.00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:21.000Stuart Winchester: I’m aiming for about 100 shows a year, plus 10 storm skiing podcasts, but these from the first 3 days are very replicable, I think I can keep doing them. As far as time, I can’t commit to a time, and the reason is, the reason the show is not live.00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:29.000Stuart Winchester: Sometimes people are just not available at certain times. I know that nationally syndicated shows can say we’re on from noon to three.00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:45.000Stuart Winchester: you have to be available during that window. Uh, I want to be more flexible with my guests, because they are running ski areas, and I am asking them for a big favor to come on to the show, uh, and give some time and their perspective. Time, a very smart person once told me, is the most valuable thing you can give someone.00:59:45.000 --> 01:00:02.000Stuart Winchester: So I want to respect that. So today, it’s going to be late, because Eric was available later. And tomorrow, Friday, there won’t be a show, because I’m driving to Michigan. Big football game, Michigan, Oklahoma. This Saturday, I will be back. Monday, I’m going to have Matthew Zabranski.01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:10.000Stuart Winchester: He is from Midwest Skiers on, and we’re gonna have a good Midwest chat. It’s gonna be a little different what I’ve been doing. A little more, uh…01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:15.000Stuart Winchester: just hype around the Midwest and what’s going on there. We’re gonna talk a lot about the passes.01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:31.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, then on Tuesday, I’m scheduled to have Monarch General Manager, Chris Haggerty, on the show to talk about their new expansion, their joining Snowpass. Uh, well, their expansion was new last year. Um, their new master plan, especially, I want to hit that hard. And then, next.01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:44.000Stuart Winchester: Thursday, I have Tim and Pete Meyer, the general managers of Cabaret Peaks, Michigan, scheduled. And I still have… I plan to hopefully do a show Wednesday and Friday. Don’t have anyone booked yet. Sometimes I may not have a guest, and I may just…01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.000Stuart Winchester: Free talk. So.01:00:46.000 --> 01:01:02.000Stuart Winchester: That’s gonna be our show for today. Uh, we are brought to you today by my friends at Profile Search. A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from folks like Eric Mogenson, like Brian Norton, the GM of.01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:04.000Stuart Winchester: Loon, like Joe Heschen.01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:21.000Stuart Winchester: And they’re not available, but you know who knows who is available is Profile Search International. They are the only executive search and recruitment team in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry. They have 30 years of experience, and they know.01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:29.000Stuart Winchester: who’s available worldwide, and they also know what jobs you need. Sometimes it’s hard to tell these days.01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:44.000Stuart Winchester: with all the data coming through and all the new platforms, digital ticketing and everything else, what jobs you even need. So they know what ski areas need to thrive. You can visit them at Profile Search International. I’m also happy to make that connection.01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:45.000Stuart Winchester: For you.01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Please follow “The Storm” on YouTube and Instagram @stormskijournal. You can support “The Storm” with.01:01:53.000 --> 01:02:07.000Stuart Winchester: swag at stormskiing.myshopify.com, where you can pick up hats, t-shirts, whatever. The very best way to support the Storm and my mission of independent ski journalism is to upgrade to the paid tier of the Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast.01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:17.000Stuart Winchester: at stormskiing.com. That will not only get you the ability to interact with the podcast, it will get you everything below the paywall that I write, which is about 80% of the storm’s content.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:25.000Stuart Winchester: Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again Monday.Stuff referenced in the pod: Get full access to The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast at www.stormskiing.com/subscribe