Jonathan Rogers: What Do You Do When Your Best Work Fails Completely?

DESCRIPTIONWhen Andrew Osenga sits down with the guys from the iconic Christian rock band PFR (Joel Hanson, Patrick Andrew, and Mark Nash), it’s, in the band’s words, the first podcast they’ve ever done. The conversation starts with how the group met each other at a Minnesota summer camp and started the band, moves through a GRAMMY nomination for their debut record, a forced name change, and four records before the three of them shut the band down on their own terms. They talk about a 2001 comeback record that lost its label just as it came out, a bus that went off the road during the promo tour and a 40-city run that was canceled. Then they skip ahead to a stretch of about ten years when the three of them were never in the same place, and how a Thanksgiving 2021 text from Patrick led to a meetup at a cabin in Wisconsin. A conversation with a rabbi at Patrick’s house in Arizona, about an archery term, later helped shape the title of their new album, “Target and the Arrow.”  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I gave up having to be right and being certain a handful of years ago. I held on to that into my 50s, but I started to realize I’m holding on to a certainty that I’m not completely certain of. So I’m kind of lying to myself.” - Joel Hanson“Twenty-five years ago, we would have been the ones answering a lot of questions. Now we’re asking a lot more questions.” - Patrick Andrew“We were given a microphone and lights and a ‘go-tell-people-how-to-live.’ And that’s a huge responsibility for guys who are literally so young in any of this and just trying to figure it out.” - Joel Hanson“The environment I spent a lot of years in, if you’re asking questions, you’re the problem.” - Joel Hanson“None of us have the time we think we have to maybe do the thing. So either get ruthless about what you’re not gonna do so that you can go after that thing, or don’t.” - Joel Hanson, recounting what his friend Alan told them“It’s almost like the music that we’ve always created was just waiting for us to find each other again.” - Joel Hanson“When we’re around each other for any length of time, songs just start trying to poke out from the ground.” - Joel Hanson“This word that we’ve translated as sin, it’s like an archery term. It’s literally like missing the mark, like your trajectory isn’t right. And repentance is turn, redirect, point yourself in the trajectory that will bring life.” - Joel Hanson, recounting Alan’s teaching“We were super young. We didn’t know we could ask for things or say no.” - Mark Nash“To have male friends that I know see me and love me and are for me. And we don’t have to think exactly like each other. We don’t have to have any hive mind.” - Joel Hanson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:“Target and the Arrow,” the band’s new album. Earlier PFR records: “Great Lengths,” “Them,” “Disappear”The Roaring Lambs compilation“The Bookhouse Recordings”Albums recorded at Pachyderm: Nirvana’s In Utero, Live’s Throwing Copper, the Breeders’ Last Splash, and the Beavis and Butt-Head movie soundtrack.The film “That Thing You Do!”Camp ShamineauLifeWay bookstores*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: PFR’s YouTubePFR’s Instagram PFR’s Bandcamp  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew OsengaThe Quiet Hours Book Series by Andrew OsengaAcoustic Hymns by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Description: Nine years and about 150 episodes after Andrew Peterson was one of Andrew Osenga's very first guests, the two catch up on everything in between — starting with what it's like to watch a story you wrote in your own head become a TV show and then a graphic novel in other people's hands. He talks about a fan comment that pushed him to publicly clarify he hadn't quietly stepped away from touring, and tells the story of spending three years teaching himself a mandolin piece by ear — only to discover the person who wrote it was twelve years old at the time. From there, the conversation winds through an 80-mile walk in England that ends by crossing tidal sand to Holy Island, ten minutes spent staring at a maple tree, and a private sketchbook he has no intention of ever selling — all circling one idea: that curiosity, not mastery, might be the whole point. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "As a songwriter, if you hear somebody cover your song, for the most part you're thrilled that anybody would care enough to like your song enough to put their own spin on it. But it's also really fun to see somebody else's expression of something that you made." - Andrew Peterson"Somewhere between the four Gospels is the real Jesus — each Gospel writer is seeing different aspects of him. So somewhere in the middle of all of this is the man himself." - Andrew Peterson"I need to be okay with not being great at mandolin. I'm gonna move on to the next thing." - Andrew Peterson"Curiosity, I think, leads to delight. It doesn't lead to mastery — it leads to delight. And delight is a very biblical idea." - Andrew Peterson"This is my reason to be outside for an hour and to be still and to look at a tree, without asking anything of it. I'm not trying to write a lyric. I'm not trying to come up with some brilliant idea. I'm just admiring and enjoying this thing that God made." - Andrew Peterson"It's great if a lot of people buy your book or listen to your music, but — the Lord first, and after Him — if you're writing for a certain person or group of people, then you've done your work: you've loved your neighbor well and loved your Lord." - Andrew Peterson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Theo of Golden by Allen LeviThe Terrible Speed of Mercy: A Spiritual Biography of Flannery O'Connor by Jonathan Rogers On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness: The Graphic Novel: The Wingfeather Saga, Book 1 adapted by Matt Mikalatos Behold the Lamb of God — Andrew Peterson's annual Christmas album and tourThe Wingfeather Saga animated series adapted from Andrew Peterson's book series, made with Chris WallWhat Went Wrong — a podcast about how difficult it is to make a movie, "let alone a good one, let alone a classic"*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Official WebsiteFacebookInstagramYouTubeX  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Description: Sixteen years ago, Jonathan Rogers finished the novel he was proudest of — and watched it fail so completely that it never made it onto a single bookstore shelf. In this conversation with Andrew Osenga, Jonathan revisits that heartbreak as he re-releases The Charlatan's Boy with a new cover and new illustrations, and traces how the experience forced him to ask an uncomfortable question: why did he need strangers he'd never meet to tell him he mattered? That reckoning eventually pulled him out of a lonely writing life and into founding The Habit, a community built on the idea that writers don't need to compete to do good work — they just need someone in their corner. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Why is it so important to me that people I don't know admire me? Why do I need to be loved by people I can't love back?" - Jonathan Rogers  "It's the loneliest thing in the world when the book comes out and the world doesn't stop and notice."  - Jonathan Rogers  "You don't have to prove yourself. You don't have to make a name for yourself. You've got a name and you've got an identity."  - Jonathan Rogers  "I'm not nearly as afraid of failure as I used to be."  - Jonathan Rogers  “Writing is a good thing to do whether you get published or not” - Jonathan Rogers Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The Charlatan's Boy by Jonathan RogersThe Wilderking Trilogy by Jonathan Rogers The Habit — Jonathan's membership community/organization for writers The Habit's "Focus Retreat"  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: The HabitFacebookInstagramX Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Description:  Doug McKelvey is the author of “Every Moment Holy” a bestselling series of prayer books, and his newest volume, “Rites of Passage”, is written for the leap into adulthood. Writing it meant reliving a pattern he never once recognized in himself as a young man: getting close to someone, whether a friendship or a girlfriend, and then — almost on a dime — deciding he was done, with no explanation even to himself. But the real turn in this conversation comes when Douglas describes the year he wrote his very first prayer book; a year of financial trouble, strained friendships, and one bad break after another. The day before his manuscript was due, an editor asked him a simple question — did he think what he was going through was spiritual, a form of resistance — and something clicked into place so obviously that he burst into tears. He'd spent that entire year never once considering it. That shift in perspective has stuck with him ever since, shaping how he now thinks about the real cost paid by pastors, by missionary doctors he's met who lose a patient almost every week for lack of basic supplies, and by anyone doing work that matters.    Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "Certainly through the two and a quarter years process of writing the prayers for this book, I had to wade through cringe-inducing memories of mistakes that I made... I was not very good at loving other people, even maintaining friendships." - Doug McKelvey   "We are the mold. God has shaped us through our life experiences and the way he has directed and redeemed those things, so that when that season of life comes along... it takes on the shape of the way God has prepared us uniquely." - Doug McKelvey   "That grief... does tender the heart and creates the space to say, okay, I've made a lot of mistakes, but I can bring these — even these mistakes and these failures — now that I recognize them, to you, God." - Doug McKelvey   Andrew’s Prayer for Listeners   Our dear Lord,  You know the plans You’ve made for each of us,  The works You have for us to do,  Give us courage when the world feels against us,  and the enemy seems all around us, and give us patience while the road is long and our efforts so often feel wasted,  Help us remember the deepest reality: That You are the author and perfecter of whatever faith we hold, For You, Lord, are good and Your mercy is forever.   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Every Moment Holy: Rites of Passage by Douglas McKelvey Every Moment Holy: Prayer Songs Every Moment Holy: The Live Experience  Anchor Hymns The Rabbit Room   *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Doug McKelvey’s Website Doug McKelvey’s Facebook Doug McKelvey’s Instagram   Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.  

Description:  This episode with Sally Lloyd-Jones originally aired on November 21, 2017, and it's one of Andrew's favorite conversations from the show. Sally spent years working as an editor for other people's books, certain that writing her own wasn't really an option — until, in her forties, everything changed. She and Andrew talk about the fear that kept her editing instead of writing, the moment she finally decided to find out if she could do it, and how that decision eventually led to books like The Jesus Storybook Bible, which has since sold millions of copies.    Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “The idea was the seed. I already have the idea, and it’s up to God what the harvest is, but my job is to show up.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “We judge our stories halfway through our story... you never judge a novel halfway through a novel. It’s only in looking back that you can see the pattern.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “If you make it excellent, it will reach everyone. If you don’t make it excellent, you won’t, because that’s just how it works—excellence removes all the barriers.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “If you trust what makes you laugh or what moves you, that’s what you have to write... you’ll be original without trying, because you’ll be you.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “Find the thing that brings you alive, because the world needs someone who’s come alive.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones “You break through the author barrier and you get out of the way, and it becomes about the story.” - Sally Lloyd-Jones   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Jesus Storybook Bible by Sally Lloyd-Jones Thoughts to Make Your Heart Sing by Sally Lloyd-Jones Baby Wren and the Great Gift by Sally Lloyd-Jones How to Be a Baby, by Me, the Big Sister by Sally Lloyd-Jones His Royal Highness, King Baby: A Terrible True Story by Sally Lloyd-Jones Handbag Friends by Sally Lloyd-Jones *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Sally Lloyd Jones’ website Sally Lloyd Jones’ YouTube Sally Lloyd Jones’ Facebook Sally Lloyd Jones’ Instagram   Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

What does a life spent practicing law have to do with crafting a blockbuster novel? For Allen Levi, the answer lies in the power of storytelling. Before the acclaim of his novel, Theo of Golden, Allen spent 13 years honing his skills as a lawyer—a profession where words were his primary tool for persuasion. In this encore episode, we explore how those years of legal practice—combined with his pivot into music and his dedication to observing the beauty in small, everyday things—laid the foundation for the deep, resonant narrative of Theo of Golden. Join us as we look back at the journey that brought this powerful book to life, proving that the stories we tell are defined by the experiences that shape us.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “As a lawyer, my tool was words. My goal was to persuade. And so after 13 years of law practice, when I ventured into music, it just dawned on me—my tool is words with melody or music and rhythm. My job is to tell stories.” - Allen Levi “To do small things well over a long period of time in the same place is how the kingdom seems to move forward.” - Allen Levi “I see the crop that I’m responsible for as beauty. That’s what I farm.” - Allen Levi   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: allenlevi.com — Allen Levi’s website  Theo of Golden by Allen Levi The Last Sweet Mile by Allen Levi  Oliviatown by Allen Levi  Change for the Better by Allen Levi  “Bucket List” by Allen Levi Young Life Louis L’Amour George MacDonald   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Allen Levi’s website Allen Levi’s Facebook Allen Levi’s Instagram Allen Levi’s YouTube   Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

It started with a dare. David French had his whole life planned out as a teenager — Air Force, fighter jets, the whole thing — until eyesight issues and a friend's bet rerouted him toward the LSAT, and somehow, Harvard Law School. From there, nothing about his career went the way he expected: over a decade defending free speech cases for people on the right and the left, then a writing habit that started as a hobby and eventually carried him to the National Review, the founding of The Dispatch, and a column at the New York Times. David talks with Andrew about what it means to “write with regret instead of outrage” — and what it actually looks like to let real criticism in without letting the bad-faith kind wreck you.  Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “I would just summarize my life or my professional life as I'll just call it the accidental career. Like all the way through.” - David French "It was literally my experience with people trying to censor me that got me interested in free speech and the First Amendment.” - David French "My goal is to be a person with thick skin and a soft heart." - David French "We're not God. We're wrong about a bunch of stuff. And we don't know what we're wrong about, obviously, because if we knew we were wrong, we'd change. So to learn that we're wrong, somebody has to show us." - David French "A revival usually begins with, 'I have sinned.' A revolution begins with, 'you have sinned.'" - David French "Write with regret, not outrage." - David French Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The New York Times — where David is currently an opinion columnist The Dispatch — outlet David helped launch in 2019, home of his newsletter National Review — where David wrote from 2015–2019 FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights and Education) — where David served as president Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) — First Amendment work American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) — First Amendment work Mere Orthodoxy — publication David mentioned reading a thoughtful critique of his Respect for Marriage Act position in The After Party — the church-focused project David works on with Russell Moore and Curtis Chang *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  David French’s Column with the New York Times David French’s Facebook David French’s Instagram David French’s X Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Jason Gray has spent decades writing the songs that shaped Christian radio, but don't expect this conversation with Andrew Osenga to stay on the hits for long. It winds through Jason's theory of what actually makes a song great versus just successful, and into heavier territory: the childhood speech impediment he once believed God would heal as proof of faith, and what he learned instead when the healing never came. He talks candidly about his divorce, and how years of praying harder than he'd ever prayed for anything didn't save his marriage — and how that experience quietly took apart everything he used to believe about how God shows up for people. What's left, he says, is a faith that's less certain but somehow requires more trust. Along the way, Jason opens up about a stretch of years, brought on by the stress of the divorce, when he lost the ability to concentrate enough to read — and how getting a record player recently brought his love of music and reading back to life. It's an honest, unhurried conversation about growing up, letting go of certainty, and learning to be more suspicious of your own self-righteousness than anyone else's.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "It wasn't the things I said, it wasn't the songs I sang that spoke the loudest to people. It was the fact that I was broken and I got up and I did it anyway." - Jason Gray "Maybe God doesn't want to heal me of my speech impediment, maybe he wants to bring healing to others through it. And maybe it's an example of God's spendthrift economy, where nothing is wasted and everything gets used." - Jason Gray "The most radically transformational thing that I could do is just allow myself to be loved by God and to allow that to become the fundamental piece of my identity — that I'm God's beloved." - Jason Gray "I'm interested in not being self-righteous, you know. And so much of the religious conversation is about being right, and I have the truth and I stand on the word of truth." - Jason Gray "When my life broke in the middle, all of my answers turned into riddles." - Jason Gray "How do I pursue truth but resist my need to be right?" - Jason Gray "If I'm hearing a voice that is telling me something I didn't see before and is asking me to do something I don't want to do, I don't think I'm generating that. I think that is someone else." - Jason Gray "Dear God, bust apart my ideas of you so I can keep growing deeper into intimacy with you." - Jason Gray   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “Roaring Lambs” by Bob Briner “Surprised by Hope” by N.T. Wright (source for "With Every Act of Love")  “Pilgrim at Tinker Creek” by Annie Dillard (source for "Nothing Is Wasted")  “Theo of Golden” by Allen Levi  “Everyday Life” by Coldplay (album) Acoustic Greatest Hits by Jason Gray Acoustic Storytime (Jason's radio show, SiriusXM) *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Jason Gray’s website Jason Gray’s Facebook Jason Gray’s Instagram Jason Gray’s X Jason Gray’s YouTube   Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Joey Lankford’s journey is anything but predictable. He went from running a 10-location healthcare company in his early 30s to selling everything he owned and moving his family to the tip of South Africa. When he eventually returned home to Tennessee, he started something totally different: a workforce development farm on state land. In this episode, Joey traces the thread connecting those wild shifts. It all started with adopting a baby girl from Ethiopia, which completely changed how his family viewed their purpose in life. He shares what he found living in the townships outside Cape Town—the unexpected joy, the friendships that reshaped him, and a simple greenhouse of tomatoes that eventually inspired his farm, Cul2vate. Now, that same vision is helping previously incarcerated men and women across Middle Tennessee build new careers.    Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "What we thought was the adoption of a baby girl to save her from the plights of Africa actually ended up being God's upside-down story of her redeeming our lives and giving us purpose and mission." - Joey Lankford "It was harder to move back from Africa than it was to move to Africa — because I knew what I was coming back to." - Joey Lankford "There's something about putting your hands in the dirt with somebody that makes it not matter if you just got out of jail or if you drove a Bentley up to the barn. The dirt just sort of equalizes it." - Joey Lankford "We all have addictions — yours are just socially disapproved of. Mine just don't create the need for anyone to put me in a cage. But they take me to the same end: separation from the Lord." - Joey Lankford "When people talk about doom and gloom, I'm like — no. The kingdom is moving at warp speed. There are people doing some really cool stuff, using their resources to redeem a lot of broken things." - Joey Lankford   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Cultivate — Joey's workforce development farm ministry; farms behind churches across Tennessee employing previously incarcerated individuals. Men of Valor — Nashville-based reentry ministry Joey named as a key source of Cultivate workers. Goodwill Industries — Partner organization providing life skills training for Cultivate graduates on a monthly basis. Second Harvest Food Bank of Middle Tennessee — Early distribution partner mentioned in building out Cultivate's food-giving model. Tennessee Farm Bureau — Partner that helped establish the Meet the Need foundation, which supplies protein for Cultivate food boxes. *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  Cul2vate’s website Joey Lankford’s Facebook Joey Lankford’s Instagram Joey Lankford’s X Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Sara Groves is on the Mount Rushmore of Christian singer-songwriters, but this conversation is less about the catalog and more about the life she's been quietly building offstage. Sara joins Andrew to talk about trading a 4,000-square-foot suburban house for a 700-square-foot home down the street from an old church, and what it's taken to keep Art House North — a community arts space in Minnesota — running for fifteen years. Sara also reflects on creativity as a practice for everyone, not just artists, stating her belief that "Beauty will save us," — and why the second half of life might be when you finally start making your most honest work.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "When you're young, you look ahead and think 'if I want to head there, I probably should turn in that direction.’ And then so much happens that you're like — ‘some of it happened because you turned that way, but a lot of it happened because of just, yeah, this isn't doing it anymore.’"  - Sara Groves "If you make community the point, you'll kill it. You have to be in mission together to some end."  - Sara Groves "The people who already had a thing going are not coming to your thing because they're already tending a fire. So you're gathering people who were looking for a fire."  - Sara Groves "God is the ocean and we keep writing about a cup of water. I started writing about the ocean with ‘Add to the Beauty.’"  - Sara Groves "My songs used to be weaponized belief system songs. And now they're not. They're just bearing witness songs. I'm just bearing witness to what it means to be human."  - Sara Groves "You're always invited to the party that you throw. So throw a party. Play to the room you can fill. If you have 50 friends, play in a room for 45 and have five standing at the back. That's gonna be a really fun night."  - Sara Groves "I think everyone should have a creative habit in the same way they have a fitness habit — whether they're a doctor or whoever they are. Beauty will save us."  - Sara Groves   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Sara Groves’ website Sara Groves Patreon Art House North IJM (International Justice Mission) Add to the Beauty — Sara Groves Fireflies and Songs — Sara Groves Invisible Empires — Sara Groves  "Obsolete" — Sara Groves "Mystery" — Sara Groves "Take It All In" — Sara Groves  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  Sara Groves’ website Sara Groves’ Facebook Sara Groves’ Instagram Sara Groves’ X Sara Groves’ YouTube   Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with  Four Eyes Media .