Episode #19 - Worsham Wisdom with Dr Bob Worsham

Welcome to the ABA and PT Podcast where I interview scientists and practitioners from the world of Precision Teaching as they share their journeys of how they found their way to the science of human behaviour, as well as the discovery through the use of the Standard Celeration Chart. 

Jack Auman and Dr. Abigail Calkin, two previous guests, are both returning in this episode as we explore how simple gestures like smiles and waves can have an enormous impact on another’s verbal behavior. We discuss the power of charting positive interactions and the ripple effect, butterfly effect as Jack describes it, of positivity in a world often overshadowed by negativity. We also share our thoughts on personal data collection in behaviour analysis, examining how using this data may impact inner behaviour of thoughts, feelings and urges. In this episode, you’ll learn about: How Jack was inspired to create the Precision Positive Interaction Project (PPIP). Why shifting from protest to positive action can be proactive rather than reactive. The possibility of recognizing positivity amidst chaos and world events beyond your control. How historical figures like Pavlov inspire modern personal data tracking methods. Why positive affirmations and mindfulness practices are so useful in challenging environments. How charting personal data aids in understanding and managing one's own behaviour. How positive interactions can shift mindsets and influence daily life trajectories. A story about addressing trauma in military personnel using positivity. Insights gained from monitoring students' positive and negative statements. How a positive upbringing shapes your outlook and approach to life.   Dr. Abigail Calkin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abigail-calkin-62305334/  Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast  Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425  The Standard Celeration Society https://celeration.org/  

Today we’re welcoming Dr. Rick Kubina, who is Director of Research at CentralReach as well as Professor of Special Education at The Pennsylvania State University. A trailblazer in precision teaching and the science behind human behavior, we talk about his journey from volunteering at a mental health asylum when he was 16 years old to becoming a pivotal figure in education. Dr. Kubina explains the balance between teaching and entrepreneurial ventures, sharing candid insights from his journey in integrating consulting within his academic career. Our discussion also explores the impact of AI in teaching, the ethical considerations behind it, and the importance of human interaction. In this episode, you’ll learn about: Why Dr. Kubina is at the forefront of Precision Teaching and Behavior Science. How his education at Youngstown State University shaped his career. How PrecisionX (formerly known as Chartlytics) revolutionizes Precision Teaching and data analysis. Why balancing teaching and business ventures was pivotal for Dr. Kubina. How AI can transform data analysis and prediction in Precision Teaching. Why ethical considerations are crucial in integrating AI in education and healthcare. Why digital charting offers advantages over traditional paper charts in Precision Teaching. Why responsible AI usage is essential to prevent misuse in fields like ABA. How low code platforms enable non-technical users to create functional applications. Why the human element remains irreplaceable despite technological advancements in education. How systemic issues prevent the widespread adoption of Precision Teaching tools like the Standard Celeration Chart.   Dr. Kubina on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rickkubina CentralReach: https://www.centralreach.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 The Standard Celeration Society Papers on Destandardization: https://celeration.org/charting-standards/  

Dr. Hank Pennypacker, a pioneer in the Science of Human Behavior, shared profound insights about the standard celeration chart in amongst the many wisdoms he describtes in this podcast. Despite its limited adoption, he emphasized the immeasurable value of the chart to those wanting to make accurate predictions about behavior. Dr. Pennypacker passionately advocates for the widespread use of precise measurement to fields involving human behavior and why percent correct lacks the arguably greatest contribution of B.F. Skinner's, being Rate of Response, and Hank's contribution of celeration as a measure to predict future performance. He also talks about his contributions to identification of early breast detection through this program, Mammacare.  Join us as we delve into the Hank's 6 decade career in Behavior Science and his discussions of the Standard Celeration chart in his advice to Try the Chart!   Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast   HIGHLIGHTS 0:05 Dr. Hank Pennypacker’s journey: From teaching psych to transforming behavior 15:00 The success and challenges of incorporating self-charting and personalized learning 21:45 Collaborating with Ogden: Pioneering precision teaching and behavior change 30:11 Developing technology and training for effective breast self-examination 39:17 Hope for the future of precision teaching and charting 49:11 The challenges of promoting the use of the chart in the field of ABA and its value in making accurate predictions and anticipating behavior   RESOURCES About Dr. Hank Pennypacker: https://www.abainternational.org/constituents/bios/henrypennypacker.aspx Link to Engineering the Upswing (book): https://www.engineeringtheupswing.org The MammaCare Method: https://mammacare.org/   QUOTES 41:05 "The power of the measurement system lies in the recognition of the fact that the frequency is the correct measure of behavior." - Dr. Hank Pennypacker 49:26 “It's not easy. I don't pretend otherwise but that doesn't make it invaluable.” - Hank Pennypacker 49:51 “If you're in any kind of activity in which you have to anticipate what's going to happen, and what's going to happen is behavior, you're better off if you're using a device which allows you to make accurate predictions.” - Dr. Hank Pennypacker  

In this episode, we take a quick side step from ABA to talk about one of the most hotly debated issues in the US right now and one that Precision Teacher Abigail Calkin writes about in her book, The Carolyne Letters; A Story of Birth, Abortion, and Adoption . In this episode, Abigail poses questions and talks about the complexities of pregnancy and parenthood and the impact those complexities have on family units. Abigail Calkin, a published author and a precision teacher, will shed some light on the choices each woman faces when she becomes pregnant. In her book, Abigail explores the three choices a young mother,Amelia, faced.  The book is divided into three sections, and in each section, Amelia, the young mother in the narrative, writes letters to the three Carolynes in the story explaining her choices. Abigail also discusses how she used the celeration chart while she was pregnant to count fetal movements, and a whole lot more! I hope you enjoy this wonderful author talking about The Carolyne Letters.    Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast HIGHLIGHTS 3:20 The inspiration behind the book, The Carolyne Letters. 8:24 Abigail introduces Amelia and Carolyne, the main characters in the book. 9:59 Should you keep the baby if you knew they would likely die soon or have severe disabilities? 12:37 The court’s ruling on a minor’s request for permission to have an abortion. 16:10 Why a lot of young women become pregnant after losing a loved one. 19:22 Advantages of programs that teach teenagers how to be parents. 25:53 The growing US trend of men getting vasectomy procedures while women get their tubes tied. 33:44 A summary of the book's sections. 44:38 How Abigail's experience becoming a mother affected the way she wrote the book. 49:12 The viewpoint of a woman who has experienced both legal and illegal abortion, as well as the current movement to make abortion illegal. 1:02:27 Counting fetal kicks using the standard celeration chart. 1:31:46 Abigail got a job at the University of Oregon after not getting a contract renewal because of pregnancy 1:38:19 Why do some people love precise instruction and stick with it, while others don't?  1:47:53 How she tallies the data on charts at the start of the day.   RESOURCES The Carolyne Letters: A Story of Birth, Abortion and Adoption by Abigail Calkin (*Amazon affiliate link) Abigail’s website - www.abigailbcalkin.com   QUOTES 49:17 “It's interesting to me to have lived in the times of illegal abortion, legal abortion, and now we're moving into illegal abortion. And frankly, I don't think that's going to work.” 55:09 “The issue is not pregnancy. The issue is [that] society is changing, and it's changing dramatically.” 58:14 “We're only one race, it is the human race.” 59:15 “Our whole worldwide culture is changing.” 59:56 “Choice is there, and you can choose to have a child—keep the child and give the child up for adoption, or have an abortion.” 1:00:00 “If abortion is illegal, there is no choice. There's only one option. And you have to go with that option. And to me, that's not what a democracy or Republicans are about.”

Be prepared for Dr. Kimberly Berens’ extraordinarily important message regarding learning disabilities!  In the US, 20% of kids are considered to have a learning disability of some kind. Dr. Berens explains in Episode 14 of the podcast that only a tiny fraction of children—less than 1%—have a real neurological impairment. This suggests that more kids are being labeled with learning disabilities that are Explanatory Fictions, as opposed to measuring learning across time and assessing for skill deficits that account for why a child struggles with reading or other learning. This episode explores the reasons behind children's academic difficulties, the truth behind neuropsychological testing, and the damaging effects that the DSM-5 learning disability labeling of children has.  Dr. Berens explains that labels that children are given are predominantly a result of ineffective instructional environments as opposed to a made up reason for what is occurring in the brain. Most importantly, Dr. Berens explains what we can do to disrupt this vicious cycle and improve children's learning abilities. She explains that for the majority of children, “school does not work” and why. She makes it clear that she is not blaming teachers, but rather that teachers need explicit training in behavior science and effective teaching practices. You’ll hear Dr. Berens' real anger at a professional that after testing a student’s performance on one occasion, then makes a profound leap to explain that the reason for the performance is due to something in the brain that cannot be measured, and that there is no scientific support for the label given to the child.   Dr. Berens then reviews a case study of a student with a Neuropsychological Report versus the type of report that a Precision Teacher would produce, to look at skill deficits a child has to account for their reading challenges, as opposed to a hypothetical construct of why the student performed badly on a test one time. Dr. Berens is a scientist-educator, a precision teacher, and the founder of Fit Learning. She is also the author of the book, Blind Spots: Why Students Fail... and the Science that Can Save Them.  Her stand is to transform education on the planet through the use of behavior science, and how that science can change the world.   Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast   HIGHLIGHTS 3:19 The truth behind neuropsychological testing and learning disabilities. 6:11 The types of assessments that neuropsychologists conduct. 8:04 What distinguishes a scientific method from an Explanatory Fiction? 21:48 Common forms of disabilities, backed by neuroscience. 28:21 Why does Dr Berens think school is ineffective? 51:51 The application of behavior science to video game creation. 54:37 Imitation is the main method by which infants learn; it is not a genetic trait. 1:00:17 What can we do to change this vicious cycle? 1:17:41 Scientific illiteracy: The difference between neuroscience and neuropsychology. 1:24:22 A sneak preview of what Dr Berens will discuss at the Annual Conference of the Standard Celeration Society in Denver in November 2022 as the keynote speaker.    RESOURCES Learn more about Dr. Kimberly Beren’s work: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com   Listen to her podcast episodes: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com/new-page Now to Next with Nanton featuring Kimberly Berens https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/now-to-next-with-nick-nanton-feat-dr-kimberly-berens/id1509498480?i=1000524816542   Transforming Your Child’s Learning Abilities with Kimberly Berens https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/428-transforming-your-childs-learning-ability-with-dr/id1038689970?i=1000576980127   Behavioral Habits with Dr Kimberly Berens https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/dr-kimberly-nix-berens-on-behavioral-habits-how-we/id1093028505?i=1000552098643    QUOTES 3:40 “Whenever a child is referred for a neuropsychological evaluation, it's based on, more often than not, a teacher's observation of that child in her classroom.” 13:55 “People make a lot of money off of this kind of testing  [neuropsychological] and these kinds of classifications, and schools get funded based on kids having these kinds of classifications, and those people get paid to supposedly treat these kinds for disabilities, but they are not scientifically valid. They've never been validated in a scientific way. They're all hypothetical.” 19:46 “Performance and learning are two profoundly different things. Performance is a measure of a child's behavior at one time. Learning is the measurement of behavior over time. That's the only way learning can be evaluated. It's a process.” 23:02 “Not only do we have data from the United States on the profound ineffectiveness of this, but we have global data from across the globe, schools don't work for the majority of kids.” 25:17 Children learn how to cheat at a young age because, once again, schools do not care about the process. Schools care about the performance on one test, and then they move on.” 32:46 "So we know in behavioral science that learning is best defined as the change in behavior over a period of time.” 1:14:32 “Being a scientist is about telling the truth. Period. It's about finding an objective truth and then telling the truth about what was found.”

This is Part 2 of Patrick McGreevy's ABA & PT Podcast interview. In this episode, we'll learn more about how the standard celeration chart works and how a slight difference in its size can cause the frequency multiplier to be distorted. Patrick emphasizes the benefits of using frequency data over percentage correct, among other things. He also recalls the final moments of Ogden's life.   Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast   HIGHLIGHTS 0:36 Pat goes on to discuss how he came to understand and appreciate Ogden's mission. 6:58 The scientific community's reluctance to use a standard celeration chart is explained.  10:39 Data's power: Frequency versus percent correct 25:26 The rationale behind why tolerating errors is viewed as a teaching opportunity.  28:26 Renaming the Y axis on the chart: Purpose and application. 34:00 Why does the correct size of the chart matter?  40:05 Pat reminisces about Og’s final moments. 47:43 About the upcoming new version of his book, Essential for Living.  52:39 Without hesitation: Pat defines the first opportunity probe.  1:01:19 Pat gives emphasis on frequency.  1:07:38 How long-timers like himself help the younger generation have a sense of connection.   RESOURCES Learn about Journal of applied behavior analysis Check out Patrick’s book, Essential for Living (*Amazon affiliate link)   QUOTES 05:57 "Science doesn't progress without standard measurement. You can't decide to measure things however you want to in whatever unit you want to. That has to be accepted by the scientific community. " 11:18 "You see, if you don't include those elements [occurrence of behaviour and time], then anything that you purport to be measurement is less sensitive to changes than it would be if you had included those elements." 16:21 "That is how a chart shows up, that you can immediately come in contact with the learning of that student because of how much information that our chat conveys. It's phenomenal." 18:22 "It's important to remember that when you go to percent, you lose fluency." 24:29 "There are certain things that you can practice over and over again for a minute or 30 seconds or 20 seconds or whatever, but certain things just aren't feasible."

If you were Dr Ogden R. Lindsley’s student, you were either all in or you weren’t, because precision teaching necessitates passion, dedication and an adherence to B.F. Skinner’s discovery of Rate of Response as the primary and most sensitive measure of behavior.  From the first time Patrick McGreevy heard Ogden speak he was “all in”! This is Part 1 of the recording of my interview with Dr Patrick McGreevy, or Brother Pat as Og called him. In part 1 he shares how he fell in love with teaching children with severe disabilities, which led him to change his career path from psychology to special education.  Patrick goes on to share what he learned from Ogden back when he was a doctoral student, his dedication to teaching others and passing on Og’s commitment to the Standard Celeration Chart - precise measurement and closely attending to the learner. He acknowledges all the mentors he’s had along the way - the Long Timers as he calls them - who have been and continue to be all in!    Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast   HIGHLIGHTS 3:57 Pat switches careers from psychology to special education. 9:55 How he and Ogden met. 14:43 Ogden’s expectations of his students. 27:46 His collaboration with “Dr. Fluency”, Eric Haughton. 37:40 About the Essential for Living assessment. 41:29 Why "percent correct" is not a measurement, and Ogden’s commitment to Rate of Response as the most sensitive measure of behavior. 47:41 Pat's vision for the precision teaching community and the world of standardized measurement.   RESOURCES Patrick Macgreevy’s book: Teaching and Learning in Plain English: An Introduction to Precision Teaching and Precision Tutoring (*Goodreads) Ogden’s article in the Journal of Precision Teaching: Say Reward, Relief, Punishment or Penalty Ogden’s book: Skinner on Measurement Visit Essential for Living’s website.   QUOTES 07:41 “I wasn't particularly interested in teaching children to read. That didn't interest me. I was more interested in teaching daily living skills to kids that couldn't communicate, the kids that couldn't toilet properly, the children that didn't know how to feed themselves, and the children who had orthopaedic impairments. Those were the kids that really interested me.” 32:50 “You have to decide the context in which to teach it because a lot of kids with more severe disabilities don't experience generalization like the rest of us do, so you've got to teach it. You've got to teach the right skills—the skills that matter. You got to teach them into context. You see, and then you have to teach them the fluency. Yeah. And then you have to have the teaching procedures to get you there.”

Precision teachers, according to Jack Auman, have an impact on students similar to the Butterfly Effect because of the small changes that can have enormous positive outcomes. In this episode, Jack talks about his journey to Precision Teaching after he met Steve Graf. From scorekeeping at a baseball game together to the adventures that they had together. He goes on to discuss Steve's brilliant ideas and how he used his own programming knowledge to bring them to life.   Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast   HIGHLIGHTS 2:03 How Jack's father instilled a love of math in him at a young age. 13:34 Three strategies that worked for him as a math teacher. 16:05 A little background on how he became interested in precision teaching. 27:20 Combocoach's goal and design. 32:02 The Typing Coach concept. 43:28 The PracticeSheeter. 49:05 What he discovered while assisting with Og's archives. 52:48 Steve thinking and looking at things differently.   RESOURCES Learn more about Steve Graf and his works at https://www.stevegraf.org/ Auman Subjects SAFMED By Auman 2010 (*Google Spreadsheets Link) QUOTES 08:02 “He [Prof. Frank Ciotola] brought to life a whole new dimension of math, where you could take an idea that you could have, and take the negation, and work with that negation with the laws of logic, and make a whole new geometry that was valid and applicable.” 19:39 “Steve had all these marvelous ideas, and I was lucky enough to learn enough programming to incorporate his ideas into our games. Checking my timeline, here's where we bridge into precision teaching or the standard celebration chart.”

This episode tells the story of a humble, passionate, and inspiring human being who gave his all for the science of Precision Teaching. Dr. Carl Koenig was instrumental in the creation of the behavior chart, now called the Standard Celeration Chart and the foundations of Precision Teaching. Carl spent over a decade of his life working alongside Dr. Ogden Lindsley through the highs and lows of shaping Precision Teaching in the 60s and 70s. In this episode, he will take us on a journey beginning with his early work experience at Kansas University, how he met Ogden, the development of precision teaching, and their efforts to spread the work to professionals and parents, amongst other things. Join our The ABA and PT Podcast Facebook Group to get access to the following resources: Facebook group link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/397478901376425 Check out the podcast on your favorite platform! Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aba-and-ot-podcast/id1538336498 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7ieqLjFH8ekw2DA0VTWJno Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWFiYWFuZG90cG9kY2FzdC9mZWVkLnhtbA== Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-aba-and-ot-podcast Podbean: https://theabaandotpodcast.podbean.com Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abaandptpodcast   HIGHLIGHTS 3:15 Carl’s childhood and his early work experience. 6:57 How he met Ogden Lindsley and how he got to Kansas University. 8:45 The development of Precision Teaching. 22:09 About his master’s degree and dissertations. 29:01 Carl’s findings that behavior multiplies and divides. 32:33 Workshops and other tested publishing alternatives to spread the word about Precision Teaching. 38:00 What the Behavior Bank was and how the state of technology got in the way of what could have been a state of the art hub for knowledge about behavior. 42:36 Two other attempts to apply the science: learning screening and PT 2. (Squared). 53:19 Carl’s life now that he’s retired.   RESOURCES Our Aims, Discoveries, Failures, and Problem by Ogden R. Lindsley (dissertation) Handbook of the Standard Celeration Chart, Deluxe Edition (book) My Time with Ogden and Precision Teaching Reminisces by Dr. Carl H. Koenig (pdf) - Check out our Facebook Group for this and many more resources!    QUOTES 30:45 “Behavior generally changes not in equal steps.” 50:21 “It’s not too late to make good science.” 57:21 “Accept the fact that technology is improving and improving and improving and it's better than sometimes we could do.”