227: Andy Walkers’ Pierces Disease-Resistant Grapes are a Success at Ojai Vineyard

Trying to manage the weeds in your vineyard? John Roncoroni, Weed Science Farm Advisor Emeritus with the University of California Cooperative Extension, Agriculture and Natural Resources covers control practices including biological, mechanical, cultural, chemical, and perhaps in the future, electrocution. Although weeds rarely compete with vines, they can host insect and vertebrate pests and get in the way of pruning crews, increasing labor costs. Listen in for John’s number one tip to better manage weeds in your vineyard. Resources:         128: A New Focus on Weed Management (Rebroadcast) 26th IPM Seminar #1: Sustainable Weed Management for Vineyards and Vineyard Ponds Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems (Journal article) John Roncoroni MAINTAINING LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT: Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems Post-harvest Weed Control with Napa RCD and John Roncoroni (video) Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand – Western SARE (online courses) University of California Integrated Pest Management Integrated Weed Management Vineyard Floor Management: Steel in the Field (video) Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is John Roncoroni. He is Weed Science Farm advisor emeritus with UC Cooperative Extension, UC Agriculture Natural Resources, and we're going to talk about cultural control of weeds in vineyards today. Thanks for being on the podcast, John.   John Roncoroni  0:13  Now you bet, Creg, thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:16  We met with we'll start with kind of a basic foundation, what would you say is the definition of cultural weed control? Maybe How does it differ from other forms of weed management?   John Roncoroni  0:25  cultural weed control as part of an integrated pest management program, you know, we have basically cultural mechanical, sometimes they're put together sometimes they're split, we have biological, which is much more important, I think, in insects than it is in weeds. Now, we talk about biological control of weeds just a little bit to show how it fits in with all this too, is that you know, when you see that rust growing on a malba, or cheese weed plant in California, people say, Well, maybe that can control and you can see sometimes it really weakens the weeds. But the one reason that doesn't work here very well as it does in other places is the same reason why we can grow such great grapes and make great wines in California is because it doesn't rain in the summertime, if it rained in the summertime, like it does. In many other areas, that moisture level would stay up and we probably have a better chance of controlling Malba. We do use biological control of weeds in more landscape like range land type at large areas, but really on any kind of agricultural situation where we're looking at control in one spot, it really doesn't work that well. Even with star thistle we be talking about people wanting to put our application of of weevils for start thistle. Well, they're out there, and they're on a larger scale. So that's biological, much more important in entomology than in Weed Science, a chemical control, obviously, the use of chemicals, either conventional or organic chemicals or control. And then we have mechemical or cultural you know, cultural weed control to me is using the utilizing the plants that are there or sheep in areas of the San Joaquin Valley that used to use ducks or geese to pull out Johnson grass rhizomes, yeah, we're utilizing sheep quite a bit more. Now. Of course, mechanical we're looking at when you look at something like a mower, right, a mower is mechanical and cultural because when you mow, you're leaving some plants. So you're mechanically mowing them down. But culturally, you're leaving plant where something like French flower, maybe a blade or or you know, one of the the weed knives are all the different moving wheels, maybe more considered mechanical.   Craig Macmillan  2:30  Let's talk about mechanical a little bit. There was a book I don't know if it's still in print. And it was a SARE book. And it was called steel in the field. And the author's thesis or premise or idea was if you drive around farm country, no matter what the crop is, there's always a graveyard of old implements, just parked just parked there, you know exactly what I'm talking about.   John Roncoroni  2:51  Oh, god. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  2:54  And his his point was, all of those things were technologies that someone had come up with. And then the individual farmer, probably then made modifications to those for their site for their crop for their soil, then the herbicide era came on. And that wisdom was lost, basically. And the argument was, hey, maybe we can bring that that idea back. And I mean, this goes back to like the 80s, early 90s. It's happening, it's happened. What are some of your favorite technologies in terms of cultivation, mechanical weed control, and some of the limitations, some of the plants that works well with other situations where it doesn't? What's your experience been?   John Roncoroni  3:39  I love talking about that, Creg, is it you know, talking about using mechanical control, and then and then going into chemicals, and now going back, it's almost like I talked to people about chemical control itself. When I started, Roundup wasn't glyphosate was a new thing. And we used it very judiciously. And I tell people, it's almost like, I learned to drive with a stick shift. I had to learn all these other things. Well, after that people learned to drive automatics. Right, because they knew one way to do it. Well, now that we're back to using stick shift, it's a whole lot easier for me, because I remember now people have to read or write. It's, it's the same thing with the mechanical. And when I started a Davis, you know, in the early 80s, we probably first came to work in vineyards in Napa, close to Davis, about 85, 86. And at that point, there was a lot less drip irrigation, a lot more dry farming, and a lot more French plowed. One of the reasons was we didn't have drip irrigation. I mean, we all want deep roots, but you're going to have more shallow roots with drip irrigation. And that was one of the reasons we moved to chemicals away from this big pasture. We always had a blade, right something like to drop a name a Clemens blade, which we all know what that is. It just cuts. You know, one of the problems with that is if the soil is too moist, then it's going to cut and go right back. And there's been a lot of innovation. My colleague Marcela Moretti, a But Oregon State's done a lot of testing with different kinds of machines. You know, one of the things about mechanical or even like mowers is that so few growers have mowers?   Craig Macmillan  5:11  When you say mower? You mean an in row mower?   John Roncoroni  5:13  Yeah, I mean inrow mower. All right. And I'm sorry, I when I talk about weeds in vineyards, because I tell people I've made my whole career out of about three   Craig Macmillan  5:21  Three to six inches.   John Roncoroni  5:24  I have about a foot and a half. Right? Sometimes I'm up to four feet, right. So that's where my whole career is right there. And that we talk about when we talked about what we're doing in the middle is with cover cropping. That's a whole other podcast and probably, I mean, I've done cover crop work over the years with some large IPM grants. I did quite Elmore and some other things. Zalem and Jim McDonald Yeah, no, I'm talking about just under vine we're thinking. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  5:53  All right we're under vine.   John Roncoroni  5:54  Talk about being a very specific expert - four feet. At the most.   Craig Macmillan  6:01  I got it. I get it.   John Roncoroni  6:02  You know, very few growers are using mowers we have the big bladed mowers and also we'll have a straight trimmer. I was trying to do some string trimmer work, but just using a little weed eater. My old friend, Mike Anderson, who was the superintendent or basically ran the oppo research station said that I could use a string trimmer in one of their vineyards over his dead body. And I was like, you don't want any girdling in those vines. So I know, there's been a lot of apprehension. There are some other kinds of mowers very, very, very few growers have mowers, from what I've just done some surveys, I've done one because you have to go back over and over and over, right? And then everything has been weighed against, well, we can just spray mowers or one, you know, there's several different and I can't remember all the trade names. But you know, there's some of the basic technology. Yes, there's some that do some stirring of the soils, you know, with blades that are perpendicular to the soil, right. So they're, they're stirring it, there's what we used to call and when I worked in bean weed control, Lilla stuns, which are wheels that turn sort of at a 45 degree angle to stir the soil. There's, you know, power driven machines, there's just ones that ride along and there's blades, there's, you know, there are so many, and it really depends on the kind of soil you have, you know, our rocky is sometimes the place where we put grapes are not a place where you could put tomatoes, right in times, shallow soil, hillsides, kind of cultivation, can you can you do cultivation? Can you do light cultivation without getting you know, soil movement? Can you even do it? Is it allowed by, you know, some rules about land use in those areas. So, there's a lot of things that go into mechanical and again, from my perspective, the weeds you have.   Craig Macmillan  7:54  I like this point here, because I think put to put things into kind of a general sense to guide things. We have blades that basically cut just below the surface. So that's cutting off the top of the plant from the bottom of it for certain kinds of plants that will kill it or control it. Then we have things like a French plow, which is a burying it's a true plow. Yeah, it's flipping soil, picking it up and flip flopping it over. Then we have the sturer. So you mentioned that little stun the central lines and other example, sun flowers. That's what they do. Yeah. Yeah. Things like that. My missing one.   John Roncoroni  8:26  mowers.   Craig Macmillan  8:27  mowers, okay. Yeah.   John Roncoroni  8:29  So that, you know, then there are a lot of variations on those combinations. It just amazing for me, and I follow a few of the manufacturers and get to see like on Twitter X, whatever, to see the videos that they're posting on LinkedIn. You know, it's just amazing to me what they're doing and the innovation that's going into those. One of the things that my again my colleague Marcel HomeReady, up at Dr. Moretti up at Oregon State talks about making sure your tractor is big enough for some of these, you know, hydraulic using, right, but one of the things we always used to talk about was, you know, the use of gas well, I know there's a lot more use and we're moving more into electric tractors, and those sorts of things. But when it comes to mechanical, really doing a good job of mechanical weed control with those some of those, you're going to have to have electric or gas you're going to have to have a big tractor. They're not going to be like a you know, a little ATV with a nifty 50 sprayer spraying herbicides right you're gonna need some hefty equipment in a lot of them not always.   Craig Macmillan  9:33  Let's start with weed knife. That's a very popular technology you see it oh yeah all over the place. What are the kinds of weeds that that's good for controlling and under what conditions it doesn't work well and under what kind of conditions does it not work well?   John Roncoroni  9:47  And I don't know the areas and passive as well as I know Napa I was brought a while but I would tell the growers you know, using a weed knife in Carneros you have about four days from when the soil goes from being too wet to being too dry. I have heavy clay soils, it holds moisture and it just. Yeah, exactly. And I'm sure there are areas like that, you know, and it can't, you can successfully cultivate down there, but it's tough, you need the timing, it's so important. If you're going to wet that soil just goes right back with that blade, right you cut through and the roots are able to tell back in, you know, if it's too dry, it's really going to be a rough ride. Because you're not going to go too deep, it's going to work well on some smaller annual weeds, which, you know, a lot of our weeds are, you know, some of the grasses with their net have a root ball sometimes are harder than just a small annual broadleaf plant, you know, you're going to have some problems, especially with something like malware, cheese weed that that grow very large. And depending on when you doing it something like cheese weed is and rye grass and Fillory, while I mentioned them are the first weeds to germinate in the fall. So by the time you get in a little bit later, they may be too big to really do a very good job on.   Craig Macmillan  10:59  Are their soils where we die for it's particularly well?   John Roncoroni  11:03  I would say you know, in less than heavy clay soil and not complete sand, a sandy loam soil, I think that holds some moisture, you know, it was able to get in anything, I think it's not a complete stand or a real heavy clay, they do a nice job, but the weeds can't be too big. And again, it's that timing and you know, with vineyards, it seems to think everything happens at once right time when you may be in having to do some sort of insect spray or mold spray, the same time you should be out there cultivating so just and it takes a while to do a good cultivation job.   Craig Macmillan  11:35  The speed that you're rolling is really important. You want to be slower ride faster.   John Roncoroni  11:40  Well, and Dr. Moretti has done this work there is an optimum speed. If you go too slow, then you really don't do a good job of cutting. If you go too fast, you miss some. And maybe this is where some of the electric AI technology can help. You don't want to cut the vines. Right, so you have this pull away, that keeps the weeds, the weeds will go right next to the vines, which you know can be a problem. We'll be talking about other situations with little vertebrate pets.   Craig Macmillan  12:06  I'm kind of getting astray here a little bit, but I No, no, but I think this is an important question. So choosing what I do and how I do it, we go back to the other technologies, Why care about weeds? Right? Why care about you know, I had I had a vineyard once that had been an oak field. And it was direct planted own rooted sprinkler system that was planted in 1976 I got the vineyard 1993 out of heavy clay soil, and I would irrigate with sprinklers twice a summer, and that oak grass would grow up into the fruit zone up into the canopy. But it would dry out. And it completely choked out everything else I had, I had no other real issues. And we would mow the middles. And I remember people going oh my god, you got all this issue, you need decent herbicide, you think grass out of the middle because the grass is gonna. And like these vines were super vigorous. They were tons of crop. I mean, I had to crop thinner. And so I started asking myself, well, how much competition? Is this really doing? Are there particular weeds that we should see? And you're like, wow, that's gonna be a competitor for water, nutrients and others where we go, No, I don't really want it there. But I'm probably not going to dig my vines.   John Roncoroni  13:13  So Craig, this is the eternal question when it comes to this. And it really depends on where you grow your grapes, right? If your goal is to get 25 tons of grapes, if you're somewhere near Bakersfield won't offend anybody, but they're looking more for tonnage. Right. And I've gotten a lot of flack for using our premium grape situations, we're not always looking for maximum tonnage. Right. And I don't know that the problem with weeds and if you hear me speak about weeds, I rarely have ever talked about direct competition between weeds and grape vines. Now, there are some exceptions, you know, when we were looking at that balance between irrigation and getting the deficit, irrigation, right, getting those maximum flavors into those grapes. So we may be right and a little low with our water in August or September, near the end. And we see that especially, I don't know so much about about I know, part of the areas where we are with the vineyard team there that they gave, we can get these howling north winds, right? Right. And you can in a very short time, you can turn some very great, expensive grapes into really great expensive raisins, right, getting that water in at that time of year. So having any kind of like flu Velen, which is really just covers the whole area of Napa and Sonoma. I know it's moving around some other areas. But you know, people say well, how much water does it use? And my old friend Rhonda Smith used always asked me well, how much water is it used? I go, we don't have crop coefficients for all the crops. It's hard to know which you know which weeds grow, how much water they use. And then the other thing too, is that if we're looking for consistency in a vineyard, and only half the vineyard is covered with that weeds where we're gonna put two too much water in one area and not enough in the other. Isn't that different? So it's competition for that sort of thing. And of course, young vines, right when we have young vines with big weeds and that that oak grass that you had, if you had young vines, you probably wouldn't have to be worried about being a grape grower very long, right?   Craig Macmillan  15:17  You have seen that young, really healthy barley cover crop?   John Roncoroni  15:21  Oh, yeah, it's it's tough for first three years. But like talking about establishments, it's really important, no matter what you do to keep the grapes sort of weed, not weed free, but really keeping the competition down. And then late in the summertime, but the rest of the time. It's other things that I've talked about these, it's one of those things where you ask people, you know, raise their hand if they have this problem. It's 50%. Yes. 50%. No. And that's voles. And I tell people, I thought that when I was in Napa, I think 30% of the growers do weed control strictly for vole protection. Because those nasty little marmots can they can girdle a grape. And I know one vineyard and Carneros they couldn't get in and do some work. Someone told me that one year they lost one in five vines. Wow. And they're not coming back. Right? That's, that's bad. Yeah. So you know, it can be a problem. We found this when we were working with mow and blow technology years ago, looking at cutting cover crop and throwing it on the vine. The Weed control was fantastic. But in my whole time, working in vines from 1985. And, you know, until today, I've never been in a vineyard, except in this trial, where I saw voles running between the rose in the middle of the day. Right, they were just happy there was so many they kind of had to get out just to get a breath of fresh air, they use those tunnels, you know, just runway so that they were protected from that, you know, the birds of prey, which you know, can help. And I people always ask about that. But again, we have that pest and prey cycle that the voles may come in and do a lot of damage, before they get a chance to be taken. And then it depends on what your neighbors doing and how effected the birds are. This is a question that I our new vertebrate pest person, Brianna Martineco in Napa who she took my office, not my place, right. So we we about a weed scientist. And one of the questions I've asked is, you know, how much of an area around the vines? Do we have to keep clean, so that the birds have a chance and the voles stay scared? You know, that's kind of question, you know, especially as an emeritus, you can ask these questions. And, you know, let the new people answer them. You know, the other thing and I've talked about this is in a rare occasion, you know, one of the things that we do you see people, anytime I'm out in the field later in the season, I talked to a grape grower, while we're out there, they're pulling those leaves off so they can get more air movement. Well, if you get some tall weeds like that, you know, the oak grass that was growing, you know, are you going to have restricted air movement? Are you going to have higher moisture content? Is that going to increase your pathogen pressure it can, doesn't always happen. The other thing too is having, you know, high grass can cause in frost prone areas, you know, if you're not getting that radiation from clean soil, and that's in the middle, not so much under the vines, you know, we can have that and sometimes on young vines near the vine itself, getting that reradiation, but again, you know, as I like to tell people, you're not going to have all these situations, and it's not going to be every year, you know, some years you're doing things you may not need to have weed control that year, but you don't know until after that year, you know, and now and I'm not I'm not a pathologist, I'm not an enthramologist, I'm not a viticulturalist I'm a weed scientist. But you know, there's been some indications that some weeds that are growing and some of the we plant and some of that we don't are having a, you know, an increase in pathogen plant pathogens that are moved by certain insects. tikka pirate likes legumes Well, you know, especially in some of our low nitrogen situations, plants that produce their own nitrogen, like Bird Clover really tend to like that situation because they have a, they have a built in advantage by making their own nitrogen. So we can in some vineyards, we can see a high population of bird clover, which may or may not cause an increase in tikka, which could cause an increase in red blotch. So, you know, when you think of weeds just specifically for competition, like when I talked to master gardeners, I say, you know, if you're growing carrot, you know why you do weed control because you want a carrot. But when it comes to a mature, you know, a 10 year old vineyard, really hard to see that weeds are going to compete on an everyday basis like they would with an annual crop, but there are other reasons why we do it. Ease of harvest, and I talked about, you know, in talking with some pruning crews, right, you know, if you have weeds growing in when you're pruning, and I tell people, if you have an area that takes an hour for let's clean, takes a pruning crew an hour to prune, if there's a bunch of weeds that they have to move around and get around, and it takes them an hour and a half. So your labor costs have gone up 50% Yeah, these are the kinds of things that as a weed scientist, I think about I tell people I really want to know two things. And when we're when we're taping this, it's the right time of year. I only know weeds in college. Basketball. So these are the only things I really know. So, you know, and I've had other I've had, you know, some people sit down and say I should have known that you have to worry about, you know, disease pressure, and getting labor contractors. And I just think about weeds.   Craig Macmillan  20:16  And let's go back to another technology that we touched on snow plows, French plow, that's a very old technology. And, you know, we just mentioned that what a plow does is it turns the soil over, so it buries the weed plants, especially when you get into the right time, what conditions are appropriate for using a French plow? What conditions maybe it's not gonna work so great.   John Roncoroni  20:41  French plow, I mean, you know, the USDA says that, you know, doing something like that the soil is never good, and you're going to mess up the microbes, especially if you're working on that lower area. But as far as just from a weed perspective, if you're dry farming, a French blot works fantastic, right? You're not looking for, in fact, you're trying to discourage as many roots at the top as you can. So doing using a French plow when you're dry farming, it's fantastic. We don't have you know, a lot of dry farms where we are looking at trying to have more consistent harvest and looking at consistent income, where you know, dry farming were at, at the will of the of the weather, that's another talk for another day with people who are doing marketing and know viticulture are better than I do. But see, I've seen more French plows as people have gone back to mechanical in the last few years, and I have in the past think there's a lot more viable options, when you're actually looking at doing some drip irrigation, then they're just by number a lot more viable options. Just by new having new machines coming out then the French plow but I was a dry farmer, my weed control would be French plow under the vines and disk in the middle because everything's you know, maybe having a little cover crop to get more penetration. But, you know, the farther north I lived, the more water penetration I would have. So I'd get more rain.   Craig Macmillan  22:00  So let's talk about drip irrigated vineyards. And you mentioned there's a suite of technologies, some are new, some are old, what are some of those technologies that have worked well in a drip irrigated vineyard?   John Roncoroni  22:12  When I got to Napa in 2007, sustainable at that point meant post emergent only and for those kind of funny now is roundup on the right no preemergent no cultivation and we were drip irrigating, we were keeping those roots at the top so we can drip irrigate. So that's where a lot of that came from. Now, you know, using something like a blade using a little Dustin with those moving things, anything that's sort of like you don't want routine, right? Again, I don't I'm not a vitaculturalist. But roots at the very top are not great, right, you're not probably irrigating correctly, if you're getting a lot of roots at the top, but you don't want to get too deep, where you're getting some of those main roots with cultivation. You know, that's one of the reasons that we do have drip irrigation. At that level. You know, I've talked to people who weren't using cultivation and ask them why their drip irrigation lines weren't closer to the soil so they're gonna have less evaporation. One of the things that we get into with grape growing or anything is that you do things because you've always done them that way, we are cultivating that we do need to keep that drip irrigation at at a higher at a high level. But I think any of those anything that's not just completely disrupting the soil. One of the things that I would like to see with with mechanical like a blade is using some electric eye, AI technologies to get closer to the vines. But right now we have to really, you know, it's all mechanical, right? If we can have these machines down in Salinas, that are taking weeds out from in between lettuce, we don't have to be nearly that technological, to get weeds right around the vine without hurting them. And we have a little bit more leeway with the vine than we do with lettuce. Even though you lose a lettuce plant here or there. You're okay. You don't want to lose too many vines. You know, I think that that's where one of the reasons that we could use more technology. One of the things again, my doctor Moretti up at Oregon State and also lenses masky. Back in Cornell, who they were both at Davis at the same time, Lynn as a postdoc, and, and Marcelo as a as a graduate student, they're working with electrocution of weeds, I think it's what they call it. And it's not just burning them off, like you would use electric light with a flamer. It actually sends electricity down into the roots. So it's, he's working on it mostly in blueberries. But the technology I just I saw his presentation at the Western society Weed Science meeting just a couple of weeks ago in Denver. It's an interesting technology. If you're like having a transformer on the back of your tractor. It's pretty cool.   Craig Macmillan  24:35  There's a there's a lot of potential here in the future for improving what we're doing now.   John Roncoroni  24:40  Oh, yeah. And I don't know how like electric is going to fit into this. But and this is the problem. We ran into herbicides. Anytime you use one technology over and over and over and over and over, you're going to choose for weeds. If you constantly mow under the vines or anywhere, right without some soil disturbance or application of herbicide, something Like Melva, low growing weeds, they'll adapt, right nature will find a way. So the biggest thing we have to do is whatever we do just don't do it all the time. That it's the right message. One of the things that I think we want to talk about was under vine cover crop. It is something for me, I've been trying to push under vine cover cropping for so long. And the problem is, is that because the seeds are expensive, I tell people that one of the one of the plants that I pushed, just because I liked the way it worked, and what I've seen is Zorro fescue. That's a brand name, it's it's rat tail fescue, you see it growing as a weed a lot of places, one of the things I like about it is that about the time we start irrigating, it's dead, it's the nest, and you can discover you can turn it over, because once it's gone to seed, you can mow it all those things. It's a it's a self receding cover crop problem is that because the seeds are fairly expensive, we planted at about eight to 10 pounds per acre and sometimes mixed with Blendo broam, which grows a little higher and stays a little greener longer than I like, because it can be some competition for water. But that's oftentimes keeps it down. But the problem is, is that first of all, how do we get it on the vines, I find people putting it out by hand, because we haven't adapted for the cedar under the vine. Second of all, it starts to reseed itself at a fairly high rate, sometimes 50 or 100 pounds the next year and the third year. So I tell people, if you can't give me three years to make it look good, then let's not start because oftentimes, you know, we started and it looks like it's not doing a very good job the first year, and it doesn't look very good. And some people who don't ask people who make decisions about vineyards who maybe work other places, then the vineyard don't like the way it looks. Right? Right, and we move to something else and they end up spraying it out or cultivating it out.   Craig Macmillan  26:55  Then this is an example of modifying the environment to address this problem and modifications to the environment take time.   Speaker 1  27:03   And this is what intrigues me about regenerative agriculture. I know this is a whole nother subject for someone who probably but as a we, as a plant biologist, and ecologist, you know, actually choosing plants that we want to be there without causing problems. Again, the voles, the legumes with maybe some other virus problems can be, but I think choosing these plants is going to be so important. But you know, it's interesting, I had someone call me and they wanted to start using regenerative agriculture. And I told them, you know, your first three years are going to be really hard I go, you have to choose the right plants, you're going to probably maybe even have some reduced yields. And they said, Well, why John, because my friend has been doing it 25 years, and he's doing great, because his soil knows what to do. So anytime we make that transition and transitioning to this under vine cover cropping. And there has been places in the past where we've tried to use a listen. But listen, because of insects and some other things. The problem with alyssum is after about three or four years, it gets to be about four feet thick. It's one of these things, it's good for a while, but after it kind of takes over, it can cause some holding in moisture and doing some other things. I mean, some people again, depending on how fertile your soil is, you know, some places it may not be a problem, but we have to look at it on a vineyard by vineyard scale. And that's been the thing about herbicides is you don't have to think about the basically the vineyard by vineyard,   Craig Macmillan  28:24  We're basically at a time but don't ask your boys. Is there one particular thing that you would say to grape growers on this topic of let's just say mechanical?   John Roncoroni  28:34  On the whole subject of weeds, Craig, I just want to say that they need to know their weeds better. Right? I know it sounds like I always have a chip on my shoulder. And now that we have to right thing about glyphosate is they really didn't have to think about didn't have to think about their weeds. So there's there's two things I want to know we're almost out of time, but we are out of time. But there's two things I want to say about this real quickly. And I know it's mechanical, but those people who are still using chemicals, they could do a better job. Right new nozzle shielding timing, think more about put as much time and effort into thinking about the weeds as you do about insects and pathogens. Know your plants. Don't just say I'm going to do this. It doesn't matter what the weeds are, know your weeds, know their biology. Know the timing, no matter what kind of control you're doing. And then once you do, get the best tool, like if you are still spraying in certain situations in certain vineyards, use new drip reducing nozzles, use shielded sprayers when you do mechanical, you know, don't just get that old thing that like you said, that's been sitting out in the back, right? Look at the kind of machine that you want to use what we do have, I think when it comes to weed control, the whole industry could do a much better job. Okay, one of the things that I put a slide up one time and I said look, I understand pathogens first and then insects, and then weeds and someone got up and corrected me and they said John, that's wrong. I said Oh really? They go? Yeah, it's pathogens, insects, fertilizers and weeds. Right so weeds and when it comes to weeds being third weeds are not just third weeds or a distant third. They only think for me about all the cons Diversity that's happened is that people have to think about weeds again, they have to go back to knowing what we knew before that before they all started using chemicals.   Craig Macmillan  30:07  So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Our guest today has been John Ron crony. He is Weed Science firm advisor emeritus with UC Cooperative Extension, UC Agriculture Natural Resources. I followed you from afar for a long time. And I'm very excited to get you on the podcast. This has been a great conversation. Yeah, there's so much more to talk about, and I'm sure that we will, we will reconvene at some point.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Businesses are vital contributors to the communities they serve. Beyond stimulating the economy and creating jobs, many business owners go the extra mile by creating a meaningful philanthropy program. Their efforts profoundly impact facets of the community that need support the most. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Meaningful corporate social responsibility (CSR) strategies give businesses the opportunity to connect with community members, improve company culture, and cultivate consumer trust, all while doing good for causes they believe in. This week’s Marketing Tip tells the Sustainable Story of how Oso Libre demonstrates tremendous Social Responsibility through the Por Vida Foundation. Supporting 4 Worthy Causes Oso Libre’s founders, Chris and Linda, started the Por Vida Foundation in 2011 to support causes that are near and dear to their hearts. By using funding streams from multiple winery activities, they support: Veteran service groups Women’s cancer research Animal support groups Children and family support groups This means that Oso Libre’s guests and customers are giving back to these deserving causes, too! The proceeds from many weekend tasting fees and private events at Oso Libre are turned into charitable donations through the Por Vida Foundation. In the tasting room, the Votive Candle Offering welcomes visitors to light a candle and use the offering box to support these causes. Proceeds from sales of their Solera wine bottles are also donated. This is a special blend that the winery makes every year. It is treated like a growler at a brewery: Members can bring their empty bottle back to the winery to have it filled with the latest vintage. Their foundation is a tool to help them give back and inspire their supporters to join in the good feeling of philanthropy. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

In the 1880s, Pierce’s disease caused a devastating, total collapse of the Southern California grapevine industry. Today, growers have hope for the future thanks to new varieties. Adam Tolmach, owner of Ojai Vineyard, planted four of these new varieties as a field trial on a plot of land where Pierce's disease wiped out his grapes in 1995.  Pierce’s disease is a bacterium spread by insects, typically a sharpshooter. One bite and the vine dies within two to three years. To develop resistant varieties, Andy Walker of the University of California at Davis crossed the European grape Vitis vinifera with Vitis arizonica. 20 years later, commercial growers have access to three red and two white varieties. Listen in to learn how Tolmach’s experiment is a success both in the vineyard and with customers. Plus get tasting notes for the new varieties. Resources:         REGISTER: The Ins & Outs of Developing a New Vineyard Site 89: New Pierce’s Disease Vaccine (podcast) 137: The Pierce's Disease and Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board 2021 Pierce’s Disease Research Symposium session recordings Anita Oberholster, UC Davis Viticulture and Enology Webpage Office Hours with Dave and Anita, Episode 11: Pierce’s Disease Resistant Winegrape Varieties Ojai Vineyard Pierce’s Disease resistant winegrape varieties overview UC breeds wine vines resistant to Pierce’s disease UC Davis releases 5 grape varieties resistant to Pierce’s disease Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Adam Tolmach owner and winemaker of Ojai vineyard. Thanks for being on the podcast, Adam.   Adam Tolmach  0:06  It's my pleasure, Creg. Great to be here.   Craig Macmillan  0:09  I want to give a little background. Before we get into our main topic. We're gonna be talking about Pierce disease resistant grape vines today, but I think your location has a lot to do with how this came about. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that you are a pioneer and innovator and quite frankly, legend in the history of the Central Coast. And one of the pioneering things that you did was you planted a vineyard in Ojai, California, why Ojai? And what is the what's the environment, like, you know, hi.   Adam Tolmach  0:33  Ojai because in 1933, my grandfather bought a piece of property in Ojai while I grew up in Oxnard, we, you know, on weekends, we'd come up here and chase lizards and snakes and stuff like that. And so I'm pretty familiar with the area and then I lived in Ohio for a few years after I finished studying at UC Davis getting a basically a viticulture degree. I came down here and and ran a truck farming operation, we grew vegetables and sold sold them in a roadside stand. And after doing that for two years, I made $4,500 After two years of worth worth of work. So I had said well maybe I should try to get a job in my my field. So my second job in the field was was working at at Zaca Mesa, 79 and 80. And then so as far as the place to plant grapes, you know, that's the reason we're in Ojai because we the family owns property.   Craig Macmillan  1:30  What is the environment like in Ojai? Because I think it's a little bit different than many grape growing regions.   Adam Tolmach  1:34  Yeah, you know, it's actually not that different than I would say the east side of the Santa Ynez Valley like the happy Canyon area or you know, or Paso Robles. Really as far as climatic goes. thing that's a little bit different about Ojai is the wintertime lows aren't as low as they are up in the Santa Ynez Valley or up in Paso. And that's that's a big deal, especially when it comes to Pierce's disease.   Craig Macmillan  2:01  That's where we're gonna go next. When you planted, were there things that you were expecting? And then were there things that came out that were unexpected? And then thinking maybe Pierce's disease is one of those?   Adam Tolmach  2:11  Well, yeah, certainly was, you know, as I've started, you know, pretty ignorant. As young people tend to be, I knew that there was a history of winemaking and grape growing in Ojai, which pretty much died off with prohibition. Actually, after Prohibition, there was a good sized Zinfandel vineyard that ended up being buried in the bottom of Lake Casitas. That sort of what I knew a little bit about grapes. And I didn't really realize it. Pierce's disease also worked into all that that, you know, you plant a vineyard around here, and it's pretty difficult to keep them alive  for the long term.   Craig Macmillan  2:48  Just cover the bases. What is Pearson's disease?   Adam Tolmach  2:51  It was originally discovered in Anaheim, California, you know, back in the I believe it's 1880s or so there were 10s of 1000s of acres of grapes in that area 10 or 20 or 30 years out. In fact, it was a much bigger growing area than, than say Napa, up north was for for grapes. And those vines all died. And at the time, it was called Anaheim's disease. Yeah. And so later on, Mr. Pierce, I think, discovered a little bit about the disease. And what we know today is that it's a bacterium that is spread by an insect, typically from a sharpshooter. But there are other insects that also spread this disease. In our case, we're not too far from a river habitat, a riparian habitat, these bugs like lush, green growing areas, and they live in the river bottom, all they have to do is get blown by the wind up to our place. If the insect is carrying this bacterium, it just takes one bite. And then within two or three years, the vine dies because basically the bacteria clog up the water conductive tissues.   Craig Macmillan  3:59  Exactly. When you were first addressing this problem. What kinds of management things did you do to try to manage this?   Adam Tolmach  4:06  Well, we didn't back then. And as we are now we're reasonably committed organic growers. So you know, we don't use herbicides, we don't use insecticides. And you know, I learned as the vineyard died, basically what was going on? So we didn't really do anything, preventative wise. And so the vineyard just slowly declined, right, which is pretty sad thing to see that really considering that I planted you know, every one of the vines in the beginning back in 1981.   Craig Macmillan  4:37  Yeah, yeah, exactly.   Adam Tolmach  4:39  And then so we went on, after that, and for years, you know, so the vineyard grew from planted in 81. And then in 1995, after the harvest, we pulled the vineyard because it's so much of it was gone from the disease and then and then there are many years where we you know, didn't grow any grapes on our property. We purchase grapes from mostly, you know, I'm from the Ohio area a little bit, but also mostly from the Northern Santa Barbara County. That area from Santa Maria to Lompoc is really where ideal grapes grow. But I'd always have a hankering to have, you know, to continue to have a vineyard here because we do have the winery right on site here. Close friends and family knew Andy Walker, who was the one who was developing these grapes that were at UC Davis that were resistant to Pierce's disease. You know, I kept kind of pushing the friends to see you if I could get some of these cuttings or plants. And then finally, really just a year or two before they were actually officially released to the public for sale. I was able to get enough to plant a very small vineyard here which is just 1.2 acres, and it's planted to four different varietals. All four of them were developed by by Dr. Walker that He basically took Vitus vinifera the European grape variety and crossed it with Vitis Arizonica in Arizona is a native of the southwest and there are some plant breeding advantages to using Arizonica, it carries the resistance, they can somehow see that really well in my days of knowing how all this stuff works is a little bit past but but there were there are certain advantages that Arizonica provided a one of which was it's a pretty neutral tasting grape. And then also the the second thing was, they were able to pick out right away if they did a cross whether they can tell whether it had the resistance or not. So they did worked on that he's worked on it for about 25 years. And in the end, he had these varietals that were that are 97% vinifera. And only 3% of the American stock, which is pretty important for the flavor profile. They taste very much like the different wines, not like you know, the native wines.   Craig Macmillan  6:53  And then you've expanded that vineyard, I'm assuming you had your trial vineyard and expanded it.   Adam Tolmach  6:57  No, no, no, it's all it's all we have is this 1.2 acres. Yeah. And so you know, we mostly make conventional grapes. So you know, we make Pinot Noir Syrah Chardonnay Sauvignon Blanc and a few other things. And we get some of those grapes from the Ojai area and in spots where they're when they're where there's less Pierce's Disease pressures. And then also up in Northern Santa Barbara County, as I said before, and so yeah, we're just we're still working with, with what we have, we found that the vines are very productive. And we are currently making really just the right amount that we need to provide our direct customers with the wines. It's been a fabulous experiment and great fun, because basically knew, but nobody knew how to grow these grapes. And each grape variety grows a little differently. And so then that was that was a real challenge there. Because I had grown grapes in the same spot before I knew some of the problems and challenges and they had a real strong sense of how I wanted to grow them a second time around. And so that was super helpful. But it's still they still were unknowns for for us, you know, the bigger the crop level, all that stuff, the taste. And then so that was great fun. And then in winemaking wise, Andy Walker had done a number of public tastings of these experimental varieties, I think I went to four of them, where they're mostly were three gallon lots that were fermented by the university. And so it's a little hard to tell from that, but they just seem like there was some potential there. Interestingly, Camus vineyard early on, got some of the vines have this one variety paseante noir. And so they made a really almost commercial size lot of that one, and I was able to taste that before I planted it. And while their winemaking style is a little different than mine, there was it was clear that there was like lovely potential in those grapes. So that was encouraging. But still, we knew nothing, we had no idea. It's still a work in progress it. You know, after five years of producing wine, there's a lot more to learn about how to best make these works. But so anyway, we planted four varietals one is passeante noir, which I think is sort of the best of the ones that I've I've tried. We also had a red, that is really it was never released to the public. So it's a you know, it's our own little thing. We have a small amount of that we call it Walker red. And then we have two whites caminante blanc and ambulo blanc and they're both to go back. Well to go on, I guess is the ambulo blanc and the caminante blanc are distinctively different. They're a bit on the Sofia and blanc side of life, I suppose. But not exactly. And then going back to the passeante noir that's I feel like it sort of tastes like a cross between between syray and maybe cab franc And then possibly some mouved you know, it's a little hard to, to read exactly what's there, but they're unique and different. And you know, in a world from 30 years ago, people wouldn't have known what to do with them. But these days, there's a lot of interest in unique grape varieties, you know, all over Europe, people are, are reviving ancient varietals that nobody's ever heard of, and they all have unique flavors and unique characters. Here are some newly bred ones that that are available now.   Craig Macmillan  10:27  What is the response from consumers have been like?   Adam Tolmach  10:29  Well, that's, that's been super encouraging. Because so you know, we're selling almost exclusively directly to our, our consumers, we have a tasting room, and we have, we do mailorder as well. And but I mean, it's been very positive, we've been able to sell out the wines, people seem to really enjoy them. So it that's been a thrill to, you know, have that consumer acceptance, I think it would be much more difficult if it was, you know, in a grocery store, for instance, but because nobody would know what the name meant. When we're able to hand sell it, it has not been difficult to sell. So that's, that's been super fun. Now, Dr. Walker, also, he had the idea that these varieties, you could grow them and use them as blending material, you know, like if you're making Cabernet Sauvignon in the Napa Valley. It's well known that in the Napa Valley near the Napa River, there's huge Pierce's disease problems. And so is one of his ideas is well you could you know, plant strips of of these varietals be able to have at use the ground productively and then blend them with Cabernet Sauvignon as long as you're over 75% You could call it Cabernet. But what's amazing to me is that the this Passeante Noir is really it's it's it works pretty well as a standalone varietal.   Craig Macmillan  11:41  Were you tempted to to blend we attempted to use these as blenders? Or were you committed to single varietal all along?   Adam Tolmach  11:48  I was much more interested in what they had to say. Yeah, so there wasn't very much interest in my part of of using them to stretch of wine or whatever to you know, to add to something else. It was an option I you know, if they weren't as good as they are, I would definitely could put them into you know, inexpensive bland we make it Ojai read or Ojai white. And so that was definitely an option. But I'm kind of thrilled that they you know, they're interesting enough, they can stand alone.   Craig Macmillan  12:13  Do you think that you'll expand your planting?   Adam Tolmach  12:15  Possibly right now, No, I've got too many things going on. And in this little vineyard year, being small as I do, I do all the pruning, and do some of the work out there. And so it's kind of a family affair. I'm not sure if I want to overwhelm my family with more. For our needs, we don't need too much more. As as things stand. We're we're pretty small size operation. And this is pretty much, well takes care of it. Interestingly, in the same vein, I own a small vineyard, up in the Lompoc area in Santa Rita Hills called Vaciega that's planted to Pinot Noir. And there's one area of the vineyard is kind of up on a little bit of up on a, a mesa or something in between, you know, above quite a bit above the river. The Santa Ynez river. But there's one small section of the property. That's right, basically, in the river bottom, it had been planted to Chardonnay and died of pierces within eight years of its planting. So it was pretty, pretty devastated. And so we actually planted the passeante noir down there and got our first crop this year into that world last year in 2013. And we're pretty excited by that. So really different climate to grow in. So you know, cool climate versus pretty warm climate. It seems pretty, pretty fascinating right now, I'm pretty excited by that. So we do you know, we do have more just not here in Ojai.   Craig Macmillan  13:43  Would you commit like, what are you going to cultural notes on each variety? And then also what are your like winemaking notes on each variety because this podcast is growers and winemakers and we can get a little bit more technical if you like.   Adam Tolmach  13:54  Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Andy Walker released five different varietals, three red, and two whites. I have the two whites and I have only one of the Reds that are commercially released. And that one is paseante noir and paseante Noir is a very vigorous grower. We're on pretty rich soil, I mean, richer than you need for grapes, mostly eluvial stuff. You go down three and a half, four feet, and it's, you know, it's river rocks, and then there are shaley areas, but it's rather richer than you need. We haven't planted on one 114 rootstock which is quite deinvigorating. But in our site, it's still exhibits lots of vigor. And so the paseoante noir grows like crazy. We have planted pretty close together. So our rows are five and a half feet apart, rather than, you know, six or eight or 10. And I did that specifically, for climatic reasons, you know, you get these rows a little bit closer together. You get a fairly tall vertical trellis. And what you end up with is, is a little more shading. And we have this really narrow canopy, the grapes all get some direct sun, but just not for very long, a little bit in the morning a little bit in the afternoon, the rest of the time, they're shaded, also the ground is shaded a lot, because they are so close together. And I think that keeps the temperature down. And I think that's really better for quality. And that's, you know, my personal view on it. And, and that's worked really well we've never, we've never had a situation yet where, you know, it's gotten so hot that the grapes have rasined up, you know, just like overnight, it's not just not happened. So yeah, so here we have the paseante noir it's you know, it's a real vigorous grower, I have a quote on pruned it's incredibly productive. We've been dropping, you know, 50% or more of the grapes as a as a green drop every year and I think I need to double down and drop even more as it turns out, they really want to produce in part of its, you know, part of it is our rich soil, but I think they're also bred to be quite productive. So that's, that's really nice. You know, better than too little, which is, you know, kind of Pinot Noir is problem, generally speaking, the walker red is this one that nobody really knows about, but it's, it's a little more like if the paseante is is a cross between, in my mind a cross between Syrah and cab franc and the walker read is a little more Zin and Grenache kind of character grows a little more upright and with less vigor, a lot more like how Grenache grows. And then the two whites the caminante blanc produces these little tiny clusters that somehow end up always produced, you know, the yields are still high, even with the small berries, small clusters, they give a little bit of a blush to them almost, they're not completely green when they're fully ripe. And they have a really distinctive spicy character, they're quite interesting. And that one is the weakest growing, there's no bigger problem there, it grows along fine with it, it fills up the canopy, but just barely every year, because of the size of the clusters, you just don't expect there to be much crop, but it always turns out to be very generous. And then the other varietals is called ambulo blanc. And it's a little, maybe has a bit of Sauvignon Blanc, spiciness to it. But it also is it's got a much more sort of Chardonnay ish, like, produces large clusters. And it also grows vigorously. So it requires a lot of the trellising is really, really important. And so we spend a lot of time in the ambulo blanc and paseante noir, you know, weaving weaving the canes up, right.   Craig Macmillan  14:06  Based on your experience, would you say, Hey, this is a great idea. If you live in a Pierce's disease area, you should definitely try this out.   Adam Tolmach  17:55  Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because I mean, if the if Pierce's Disease is pretty strong, you're you know, you're left with, you know, having to use a lot of insecticides, and they're very bee unfriendly insecticides. And so, you know, we're able to grow here completely organically. That's worked out really well. So that's, that's, there's a great advantage there. I noticed in your questions at the you had to get sent me a list of questions. And one of them is like, what else should they be working on at the university? And definitely, my opinion is, you know, the biggest disease problem of grapevines in California is called powdery mildew. Everybody knows about it, why there aren't more powdery mildew resistant vines out out here yet is, is is interesting, you and every other trade, people that are kind of, you know, they, they praise, the new things that are coming along, the progress has been made in the wine business, everybody wants to just the old thing, just the way it's always been, that's a little bit of a stumbling block in a world where the climate is changing. So that's what that's why I really recommend that's what should be worked on is is resistance to powdery mildew, because it's not going to get better with climate warming. And also, it's it's the reason that we drive through our vineyards, you know, five or 10 times in a season just for powdery mildew control, it would be an incredibly great environmental thing if we could grow great tasting grapes and make great wine out of powdery mildew resistant varietals.   Craig Macmillan  19:27  And I think people are starting to move that direction.   Adam Tolmach  19:30  Oh, yeah.   Craig Macmillan  19:31  But you're right, bring it on. You know, let's, let's try where can people find out more about you?   Adam Tolmach  19:36  You can go to our website, you know, Ohiovineyard.com. And there's, there's lots there's tons of information about about us and me and what we're doing and we have, there's a whole article on on the site about the Pierce's resistant vines that we're growing.   Craig Macmillan  19:52  Very cool. Well, um, so our guest today has been Adam Tolmach owner, winemaker. Oh, hi, vineyard. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is great. Right   Adam Tolmach  20:00  Yeah my pleasure I've been listening to your show now for quite some time I really enjoy it   Craig Macmillan  20:04  oh good fantastic thank you and for all of our listeners out there thank you for listening to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Employees who are regularly trained and educated report higher levels of motivation, performance, company loyalty, and more. Yet, almost 52% of employees in the food and beverage industry only receive training when they join their organization. Of those that do receive regular training, only 4.5% receive training about their company’s mission and values (TalentLMS, 2019). Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we’re revisiting the most downloaded Marketing Tip Monday episode of 2023: #178: The Training Your Tasting Room Staff Needs. Why Education Matters If you aren't regularly providing training and education for your staff, especially on your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a stronger, more dedicated team! One way tasting room managers can educate their staff on the company's mission and values is to have continual conversations about what your brand is up to behind the scenes, i.e., your sustainability efforts. Tips from an Insider The hospitality team at Center of Effort can tell you all about the brand’s commitment to sustainability. In recurring staff meetings, the team talk about what’s going on in the winery and in the vineyard, plus what the brand is doing to improve their sustainability. John Gayley, Hospitality Team Member at Center of Effort says there are three big benefits to these conversations about sustainability: Staff know their input matters. The business improves its sustainability. Guests get a richer, more meaningful tasting experience. “Education really enforces the importance of each of our roles in helping Center of Effort stay up on its sustainability efforts,” John shares. “Hospitality staff reinforce the brand. We can highlight our commitment to sustainability more if we understand what we are doing both fundamentally, and the new and exciting things we’re doing to improve. These conversations keep everyone engaged and ready to come up with new ideas.” John often takes guests on vineyard tours. He says that people are “fascinated by what goes on in the vineyard, and by the thought that goes into the sustainable approach.” Visitors love learning about cover crops, irrigation, owl boxes, and more. “When guests talk with a well-informed team member, this helps all of us in our mission of sustainability.” We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

An antiquated California law makes the use of autonomous equipment in the vineyard challenging. Michael Miiller, Director of Government Relations at the California Association of Winegrape Growers (CAWG) explains that workplace safety standards developed in the 1970s based on 1940s equipment state that self-driven tractors must have an operator onboard. To update this law, CAWG is working closely with manufacturers and countries that allow autonomous equipment to aggregate data on safety. Automation has many potential benefits to farm workers include developing transferable skills, upward mobility, precision agriculture, and increased safety. Learn about how the law works today and about funding opportunities to train staff. Resources:         117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money California Association of Winegrape Growers (CAWG) Legislative Action Center California’s ongoing ban of autonomous tractors a major setback Department of Industrial Relations Regulation Title 8 Section 3441 Operation of Agricultural Equipment Electric, self-driving capable tractors roll into California North Coast vineyards. North Bay Business Journal. (Partial pay wall) Frequently Asked Questions Self-Propelled Agricultural Equipment (CAWG Member Login required) Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Michael Miiller. He is Director of Government Relations at the California association of wine grape growers. And thanks for being on the program.   Michael Miiller  0:09  Thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:11  The talk today is where we're at with autonomous tractors as they give a presentation, and you brought up some of the issues we were facing. And I know you've worked on this a lot as well, if you can tell us as of where we are here, end of February 2024. Are we going to get our detractors or not?   Michael Miiller  0:30  That's a really good question. And you can approach them in a whole bunch of different ways. One is we already have them, the technologies there. Now they're being used in many vineyards, across companies around the world. They're also being used in orchards and fields and other commodities. And the reasons for that are in that it's not just economics, it's also about availability of workforce. It's about precision, agriculture, precision, viticulture, making sure that we are good stewards of the land. And it's also about looking to the future, making sure that we have a sustainable industry to grow by grower sustainable vineyard is a huge investment in So on one hand, yes, we already have that. On the other hand, there are continued complications of California law with it. The law states that if you are using self driven tractors, and that's the language in the California workplace safety standards, self driven tractors, then that means that you're supposed to have a driver on board that equipment. So if you have an autonomous tractor that is self driven, meaning that it's programmed to operate without a driver on board, but through electronic means through technology, then you're supposed to have a driver on that board, no matter what. And that law obviously very antiquated. It was, you know, created in the 1970s is one of the very first workplace safety standards in California, is based on 1940s technology. And it's basically targeting for a guided tractors and seeding you mechanisms, as well as irrigation, those kinds of things. And that really targeting the tractors or technology we have today just wasn't even a fathem of possibility back in the 40s 50 60 70. So this is all new logic doesn't address that issue. So in that sense, we're not there yet. But we're getting there.   Craig Macmillan  2:24  Reading up on this topic. But first of all, I can see why it came about. Because I remember growing vegetable fields where people were laying irrigation pipe, and there was nobody in the trenches. And I thought, wow, and then also I thought that was really dangerous is someone who then has to jump up into the tractor to train the roads. So they're putting the wheels and things I can understand that. And yeah, nobody had any idea we'd be here today. So where's the resistance coming from this point from this code from Cal OSHA that coming from the legislature was we're, what's the book that we're reading from?   Michael Miiller  2:57  So it's a couple of things. One hand, while there is resistance for some talk about where where we have embraced, right, where we have people welcoming, you have to remember that the California is the place where agriculture and technology intersect, right? We're largest agricultural state in the nation with a home of great innovation technology. So for these things to come together in California, um, it isn't by happenstance, you know, it's because the technology is here that needs parties here. And people generally understand that this technology, you know, while it seems new, or there's something that is up and coming and in development, it is here already, and it is here to stay. So people do genuinely know that, you know, looking at regulators looking at politicians, they generally get that there is a need to get this right. Okay. So that's the good part of it. The resistance comes in a couple places. One, you have labor unions, who basically fundamentally think that they're gonna lose jobs, technology, right? That for every track that has being driven and remotely, yeah, that's one less tractor driver. And they see that as a job loss in this example. We don't see it that way. We fundamentally believe that in California, there are two tractor jobs for every one tractor driver, you know, we just don't have enough workers to do the job. So in that reality, we're not losing jobs. We're just not. That's just not the reality. And the other part of it, too, we also know that if you take the average person who was working on a tractor and say, Hey, would you rather ride that tractor all day long? Or would you rather operate that tractor remotely from a laptop computer with a skill that is transferable to other industries? I would say more than 99% of those drivers say, yeah, you take me off the tractor. If I can do it remotely? Absolutely. Why would I want to be on the tractor? We don't really see it as a job loss issue. We also see more as a job safety issue. And we know that with technology, the firm is much much safer. It just is because of how the machine is designed to be used. If you're spraying pesticide with it with a machine It is going to be more precise, where it is applied. And it's going to be lesser in amounts and how much is applied. So we think that that is increased worker safety, as well as the basic fact that there's nobody on that tractor, it's less likely that someone's going to get hurt by that tractor. So we really fundamentally believe that is actually as a increase worker safety, increased environmental safety, as well as no job loss. But that is really views are coming from they're fundamentally concerned about job loss, I would never speak for them, you should talk with them yourself. But that's what they testify to in public hearings, then you look at the other issue, the big the bigger public perspective, and the bigger political conversations that happen around it. And we talked about anything that is automated, as far as you know, equipment, vehicles driving around, the first place people go to as those taxis in San Francisco, and they look at it from that perspective, okay. You've got busy roads, you've got hills, you've got curves, you've got pedestrians, you have all of those factors. And then they look at the videos that are, you know, online and computer, you know, YouTube, whatever. And they see those occurrences which, frankly, are very infrequent and not the common occurrence, but they're an infrequent occurrence. But they see those infrequent occurrences and they see them as commonplace, even though they're not. And then they see them, as is something that, you know, applies to all autonomous equipment, all self driven equipment. And in reality, if you're looking at, you know, the tractor moving two and a half miles per hour through a vineyard, when nobody's there, you have a very different situation than, you know, 1000 pound, you know, semi truck going down the interstate for a taxi in downtown San Francisco, was a very different situations. And so we think that we really just look at ag equipment autonomously in a vineyard, because we represent winegraoe growers, that it should be a whole separate conversation from all of the other, you know, autonomous equipment conversations,   Craig Macmillan  7:03  There are autonomous tractors in other states, right, and other countries. So is it possible to bring in these races from these other places, and make an argument that would be persuasive?   Michael Miiller  7:17  That is exactly what we're doing. We believe, whenever you're writing, a workplace safety regulation, this should be based on data should be based on evidence should be based on facts. It shouldn't be based on hyperbolic concerns and discussions, right? Although there's always you know, the the element of people to be safe and where there are concerns. And those concerns or concerns are expressed broadly. Some people I think, take anecdotes and view them as facts or evidence, when in reality, an anecdote is not, you know, conclusive evidence. So we're looking at that evidence from not only other states, but other countries as well. You look over Europe, South America, Australia, New Zealand, I mean, this equipment is in use, and they have data of the manufacturers have. And they put that together, some of the labor unions have resisted that data, they think that if the worker isn't represented by a union, then the worker is afraid to file a complaint or speak up and therefore the data isn't reliable. And in California, you've got less than point 5% of our ag forces represented by a union. Most workers in California don't want to be in a union, they don't see any gain to their advantage in that. In that reality, then it's incumbent on us to come up with all that right data and all that right evidence. And that's what we're doing. We're working closely with those other countries, manufacturers, those countries and others. I recently met with the company from New Zealand, and they were had a very interesting presentation about how they have a robot that goes through the vineyard. And it scans in real time looking for viruses and diseases. If you think of for red blotch, for example, right, the robot will go through it a cup, and then the grower and your manager will get on their computer screen, an image of that vineyard with specific locations of where there's a problem and where it needs to be treated. So that grower can then take a robotic tractor, go into that vineyard the next day, and sprayed just those locations where there are problems. And they're doing that in New Zealand and heavy hills, all kinds of terrain, and they're doing it successfully in a very safe way. And that's evidence that we that we you know, gathering and putting together and we think that that's ultimately gonna be very helpful to us.   Craig Macmillan  9:37  You brought up an interesting point that is certainly talked about autonomous tractors and tractor are mentioned or equipments mentioned in either zero. This is Cal OSHA regulation?   Michael Miiller  9:47  Correct.   Craig Macmillan  9:48  Does this apply to things like automated robots?   Michael Miiller  9:51  Probably because remember, when you're talking about self driven agricultural equipment equipment.   Craig Macmillan  9:56  Yeah, then can be very broad. Interesting, interviewed a number of different posts for the podcast that are working on automated robots to do all kinds of stuff. And this exact problem had really occurred to me.   Michael Miiller  10:10  If you think about it from the perspective of some of the sprayers that are out there now, there's a sprayer that has like three different models. And there is no, you know, driver's seat, there's no steering wheel, there's no accelerator, brake, clutch, gear shift none of that. It's all operated remotely. So even if you wanted to put somebody on top of that sprayer and have it running through the vineyard, there's no place a person to be. It's just not physically possible. Right?   Craig Macmillan  10:39  Where are we have what's coming up next? We're in February 2024. And you had mentioned public hearings and testimony speaking in the Senate, what's the next phase on this topic?   Michael Miiller  10:49  So we're working closely with the manufacturers, we believe that the best way forward is mobile a couple of things. If your viewers are members of the California Association of wine grape growers, we put out a FAQ fact sheet that we think will help growers to use equipment under California law legally in California, in California, the key is that we using that equipment, it shouldn't be anybody else in the vendor, right? If the tractors going through doing his work, just make sure that there's nobody there. Because if you do that, then it is not really a workplace. Remember, the regulation is a workplace safety standard that applies to a workplace. So if there's nobody there is not a workplace, that law doesn't apply to that. And again, I'm not your lawyer. So I encourage you to read our FAQ sheet, but that also talk with your legal counsel and your HR professionals. Make sure that works for your specific situation. Very broadly speaking, if there's nobody in the in the vineyard, then it's not really work because it should be elaborative. But that means you should also keep the records of that, how do you how do you document that there's nobody there and keep your payroll records, make sure it's all detailed, keep time logs about when the machines that use or where it's in use, you make sure you've got all that documented for a minimum of six months. So that if there's ever a citation issue, if somebody files a complaint, you can then say, Okay, here's what you know, here's what we did, here's how we did it. And there's nobody there. Therefore, it's not a workplace, and therefore, there's no basis for the citation. So that's in the short term, because, again, I have visited a number of venues where the equipment is in use. And that is fundamentally how it's often used right now, with nobody around the equipment they the operative late at night, they operate on doing equipment that doesn't really require anybody to be in the vineyard. So it fits what's in practice today is to really look at that separate from a workplace safety standard, because it's not really a workplace. So that's the short term. And the long term, we really got to fix this regulation, we just have to the regulation is goes back to the disco age, for God's sake, right, music has changed. So it's technology. So and so was fashion, right? So yeah, I don't have any bell bottoms anymore. So so we need to think about, you know, how that regulation, you know, should read and how it should apply to just autonomous equipment and what that would look like. And part of that is going to have to come from the manufacturer, industry from the from that sector, because they're the engineers, they're the experts, they know how to do that, right? The agricultural end of it, we can bring all kinds of evidence to bear about why it's needed, and why it's appropriate, why it needs to be updated, the details of the equipment itself, what if defined with equipment is in a way this engineer and how its technology is used, then you have to look at how to operate that equipment safely and what that looks like and how that, you know, operates. And then you go look at where is equipment intended to be used and for what purpose. So you've got to put all that together in a regulation that your reflects the science, not only of today, but also where things are going. So because we have to keep going back and just as regulation of science, develops, technology grows over time, is gonna be a long, long continual investment process of the regulation. And we think it should be written in a way that reflects what's happening today, with also our appreciation of what's coming down the road, is we know that there's more coming. I mean, we're at the tip of the iceberg of what the technology can do right now.   Craig Macmillan  14:35  Oh, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I the role of humans in this is always the tricky bit. It's kind of an aside, but I'm old enough to remember when laser cutters first came out. It was kind of a panic that you're gonna put an eye on you're gonna blind somebody with these, you're gonna and no, I don't want to shine in my eye but they're all over the place. I use them all the time and they're just they're not illegal. Don't put it in an airplane. Hopefully we can kind of get past some of it. So one of the reasons I say that is, again, I've talked to many guests, they're going full on in this area. And they've got federal funding, like you said, it's being it's being implemented in all over the world. And we need to catch up.   Michael Miiller  15:13  Frankly, if you're a grower in California, and you're not thinking about looking at precision agriculture, and how do you use this technology, you're making a mistake, because it really will benefit every part of the industry. I firmly believe that and it'll benefit our workforce, our communities, everybody involved. Well, another example perhaps for me too, is you mentioned laser printer. The other ones, I remember the 70s When I was a kid, the invention of scanning groceries, the barcodes at the cash register, right? That didn't exist before early 70s. Right. And one of the places where there was a lot of pushback on it was from cashiers, they thought you're going to replace my job with these machines are going to scan the groceries. And if you talk to the average grocery cashier today, they would not want that job otherwise, because it makes their job a lot easier.   Craig Macmillan  16:05  You still need cashiers.   Michael Miiller  16:07  Correct. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  16:08  Yeah. I mean, that role didn't go away. You know, when I first met you, I saw you give a talk. And I asked you a question. I'm gonna answer this question here. That does a really interesting answer. We're definitely moving this technology direction. There's no doubt of it. When we're talking automation, we're talking robotics, we're talking electrical driven motors, on and on and on, this is going to take a pretty sophisticated workforce to not only operate, but also to maintain nationally or in California, are we bringing people into learn these topics in these areas?   Michael Miiller  16:46  That's a good question. It's a several layered answer. You know, one is one hand. Yes, we are. I mean, when you're looking at some of the manufacturers who are doing some of this product testing, they're making sure that there are people trained to operate their machines, and there's the training themselves as part of the package, when you buy the tractor, you're gonna get some assistance and training your employees to have a part of it as you have Fresno State university, UC Davis, Cal Poly, a lot of community colleges, who are already training in some of this work, they're they're making sure that where there is training of agriculture industry, that that training includes technology, right. They're training people, you know, for all of that, as well as for the marketing in the industry, product, all of it. So the training is already happening as well, or I mentioned earlier, where we know that there's some embrace of this issue, the governor just recently announced that there's going to be a $10 million program at the EDD employment training panel, where there's some money being provided for agricultural employers to train their employees and various things, not just technology, it can be all kinds of different issues. But the idea goes to make sure that we have a sustainable workforce of workers are getting trained in skills that will benefit them through upward mobility, transferable skills, and all of that. And that $10 million is for that purpose. So if you're the if you're the grower, who's wanting to make that change, and move, move from, you know, traditional tractors to self driven automation, whatever kind of equipment you're going towards, you know, it might be an option for that grower to, to apply for a grant for the ETP, to get some funding to train those people in that new skill. So there is a lot of recognition of the need to train workers and to make sure that that people have the skills necessary. One of the big ones you mentioned was how do you maintain these tractors, right, if you've got an electric tractor, you know, that's operating on the battery. And it's a whole different mechanism than if you have a tractor, that's diesel gasoline, you know that how you repair that equipment, how you service equipment, you maintain it, it's a bit of a different skill. So we need people who are trained in that as well as how to operate it. So there's a pretty substantial need for training people. And I think that that's kind of the appeal of it too. Because all those skills are transferable. When we look at our workforce, we see that the average ag worker is getting older and older. That's because we're not bringing in a lot of younger people, right? They don't want to do the ag work, they want to do something different, right? They're more interested and motivated to do other kinds of work. So if we can look at that reality for younger workers and say, how do we make this job more appealing to them? And we're applying these kinds of technologies and skills, they will come back because at work in the 70s is very different than ag work today with this technology. It's just an entirely different thing.   Craig Macmillan  19:46   If there was one thing that you would tell a great or on this topic, what would it be?   Michael Miiller  19:52  I'll start with this. I'm a Midwestern kid. I was born in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I spent most of my childhood in Iowa and Wisconsin, my tie back to agriculture is from that Midwest experience, right. And my uncle has a farm outside of Mitchell, South Dakota. And I would go help them as farmers and I drive tractor and do whatever he had. He had hogs. He had some cattle, he grew soybeans, corn, alfalfa, all kinds of stuff. He was very diverse in what he did every year. You know, he relied on Mother Nature for rain in new irrigation back there, right? So I remember talking with him after I come out to California, just touching him, see how he's doing? And I asked him, so what's your most reliable crop right now? How are you doing with it? How was how's the industry has environment, it's my most reliable crop right now is a cell tower, that I lease on the corner of my land, that is guaranteed income every year, every year that's guaranteed income. With that in mind, if I talk to a grower today and say, what's, what's the one thing they should really think about, think about where your opportunities are to actually, you know, save money, invest in the future, reduce your cost, and actually create those reliable sources of income and sustainability, right. So if you're looking at things like carbon sequestration in the vineyard, you're looking at cover crops you're looking at, you know, all of that kind of stuff. You're looking at, you know, a technology that is down the road, you're looking at stuff that's coming, and I would pause, take a breath and look at all of that, because there are huge opportunities there is some growers laughed at my uncle for putting up this tower. He's like, Yeah, but this is cash income every month. And I'm good to go with it. Yeah. So yes, I say continue looking at the technology and see how it applies to your bottom line. Because you will be surprised at how much and how big of an advantage it is for growers to actually look at this technology and make that investment.   Craig Macmillan  21:55  I'm from the Midwest, myself. I'm from Iowa, Soux Falls Iowa.   Michael Miiller  21:58  I lived in Waterloo as a kid.   Craig Macmillan  22:00  You're kidding me.   Michael Miiller  22:01  No, Waterloo!   Craig Macmillan  22:02  We need to edit this part out! Well, then you can well, then you really can relate to this. You know, I was involved in farming, I was a city kid. But we had, you know, members of our church, or folks that we knew who had farms and side of town, they had to make some big decisions. Sometimes, you know, depending on the price of corn, they may have to store it, I may put it in a silo. Or maybe I should look at another crop or another type of livestock or something like that. Since that time, we now have farms with tractors that are running on GPS that have intelligent sprayers all programed. And a family can farm quite a bit of ground with again, a lot of safety, but they weren't big investments. They were risks. That's that's what I hear from around other crops. It's like Nope, that was a big jump. But once we did, it made tons of sense, it worked out great. I do want to kind of underline your idea that we should definitely be looking and thinking and doing the math. And then especially as technology becomes more adopted.   Michael Miiller  23:00  Everybody's got to make the decision as a grower by grower or video by vineyard basis. But in speaking in general terms, I think growers would be surprised actually beneficial it is to them.   Craig Macmillan  23:10  Where can people find out more about you in these topics?   Michael Miiller  23:13  You go to our website www cwg.org orgy my email simple Michael at cwg.org Send me a text anytime email I'm easy to get a hold of. The contact information is on the website. And there's some information on there as well mentioned our FAQs etc website and it gets available for our growers and viewers who aren't caught growers should be known I could help you with that as well.   Craig Macmillan  23:39  Okay, sounds good. This today was Michael Miiller. He's Director of Government Relations, California Association of wine grape growers. Thanks for being here.   Michael Miiller  23:46  Thank you so much. Enjoy yoru day.   Craig Macmillan  24:22  Waterloo, Iowa   Michael Miiller  24:24  Yeah! yeah, go cyclones.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

When asked to define the 3 P's of Sustainability (People, Planet, Prosperity), Prosperity is often the one gives people pause. But it's such an important leg of the stool! Sustainable businesses develop long-term plans and strategies to ensure they can thrive now and into the future. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Some of the ways businesses embody Prosperity are through: Creating and sticking to a budget. Keeping thorough records. Creating informed and effective marketing plans. A business can also extend their prosperity through collaborative efforts with like-minded groups. When this happens, both parties win. Organizations that partner over shared values benefit by: Pooling resources. Building relationships. Advancing awareness and support for their cause. For example, Cambria Estate Winery is a Business rooted in women’s leadership. Their team partners with organizations that share their dedication to uplifting and empowering women in an incredibly impactful way. Cultivating Female Empowerment Cambria Estate Winery is rooted women’s leadership. Their certified sustainable wines are even named after their proprietors – Barbara, Katherine, and Julia. Did you know that their dedication to recognizing the experiences and achievements of women goes even deeper? Uplifting and empowering women is core to their Business values, and they have a big way of showing it. Every March for Women’s History Month, Cambria selects an organization that aligns with their pillars of climate action and women’s leadership, and pledges $25k to support their efforts. Tamara Bingham, Cambria’s Brand Manager, gets to make the phone call to let the organization know they were selected – a task she says is “probably the most rewarding part of my job.” In 2024, she notified the lead of American Farmland Trust’s “Women for the Land” initiative to pledge their support. Right in line with Cambria’s own sustainable practices, this initiative supports women farmers and landowners in preserving their land and embracing conservatism. Other past years’ partnership organizations include Equity Now, Women’s Earth Alliance, SeaTrees, and Amazon Frontlines. Through these partnerships, Cambria demonstrates their dedication to using the power of their platform to help uplift and empower women everywhere. Their Business practices are founded on their belief that a commitment to sustainability is also a commitment to amplifying the messages of the many deserving organizations working towards a better future. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

If irrigation efficiency is a goal of yours, a new predictive model may make scheduling easier in the future. José Manuel Mirás Avalos, Tenured Scientist at Misión Biológica de Galicia in the Spanish Nation Research Council (CSIC) (MBG-CSIC) in Santiago de Compostela (Spain) is working on a Decision Support System (DSS) prototype for irrigation and fertilization of winegrapes. This computer model accounts for multiple variables including weather, soil moisture, evapotranspiration, soil type, plant spacing, bud break, variety, and wine quality goals to help farmers make more informed irrigation decisions throughout the growing season. Resources:         191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs 195: Hydrological Mapping: A Vital Component of Effective Water Conservation Plans 213: High Resolution Data from Space Helps Farmers Plan for Climate Change Decision Support System for Seasonal Irrigation and Nitrogen Fertilization Decision support system for selecting the rootstock, irrigation regime and nitrogen fertilization in winemaking vineyards: WANUGRAPE4.0 Effects of the Annual Nitrogen Fertilization Rate on Vine Performance and Grape Quality for Winemaking: Insights from a Meta-Analysis Fiabilidad de la monitorización del contenido de agua del suelo para determinar el estado hídrico de la vid. (“Reliability of monitoring soil water content to determine the water status of the vine”) -in Spanish José Manuel Mirás Avalos on ResearchGate: José Manuel Mirás Avalos On LinkedIn Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is José Manuel Mirás Avalos. He is tenured scientists at the Misión Biológica de Galicia and the Center for Spanish Research Council. Thanks for being on the podcast.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  0:10  Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure for me.   Craig Macmillan  0:14  We were interested in talking to you because we saw that you've been working on a pretty interesting type of technology with it with a whole group of folks around the idea of decision support systems, particularly around irrigation, fertilization for grapes, possibly even root stock selection, when I read, first of all, for our audience, what exactly is a decision support system?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  0:34  The idea behind that decision support system is to provide a within one package in this case is a computer platform in which we use different kinds of information coming from real data coming from models that that are implemented within this platform to provide the users the end users with information to make certain practices easier, or more rational. In the vineyard. In this case, we were centered in this particular case in irrigation and fertilization. And there was another it's not exactly a decision support system is more like decisions help decision making for the rootstock which is a independent from the, from the irrigation fertilization system.   Craig Macmillan  1:27  How does the grower use this kind of tool so I'm trying to make decisions about irrigating my vineyard and how did the tool play into it?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  1:36  At the moment is just a prototype, the computer program or the DSS for being short? The DSS Decision Support System can give some information very easy to obtain such as the geographical coordinates the plant spacings location about the nearest weather station for instance, and that information and the algorithm which is inside this platform in the user will receive an information okay for this conditions over this growing season, you will have to use that much amount of irrigation to obtain given in this case, we use an indicator of grape vine water status the user can modulate within a wide array of values. So, you can decide okay, I want that, on average, my grapevines in this particular danger go between these and these values of of water potential. And then from this decision support system says okay, in that case, you must follow these instructions that is to get that much irrigation for obtaining full genes. Or you can use less irrigation in order to obtain a given quality parameter in that case was soluble sugars in the grapes.   Craig Macmillan  2:59  How's that algorithm developed? Your modeling is a predictive model, basically, you're saying. The vine is going to respond a certain way over time. How is how is that done?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  3:10  We've capitalized on previous works from other research groups. And I said that that this work is not my work is I work for in collaboration with several research institutions in Spain with people that have a strong expertise, viticulture, in grapevine  physiology, we capitalize on that, on that knowledge in order to model soil water balance, and adapted to vineyards in this case by using a proxy of the grapevine architecture in order to model vegetative growth over the growing season. So with that, we modulate the evapotranspiration of the vineyard. And from that we calculate soil moisture, according to weather that and using data from experiments carried out here in Spain, with seven grapevine varieties located in different regions of the country, let's say correlate soil water content with a measure of grapevine water status in this case was a stem water potential, which is a measure which is considered here in Europe. Well, in the States, there are some kinds of schools that refer other other types of measuring grape vine water status but in this case here in Spain, A, we proved in a previous work that stem water potential is a modality of great buying water status indicator, which works best for irrigation purposes.   The work that you're basing this on the research that's been done, was it done specifically for developing this model? Are you able to take work that's been done for other purpose And then put it all together to get the algorithm that you want?   It was basically the second option that that you have mentioned, we have extensive experience working on irrigation in vineyard. So we have several, we participated in several experiments concerning different irrigation protocols within the vine. So we let's say capitalize those data from those experiments. And also perform it a couple of experiences during the course of the project, which led to the development of this decision support system.   Craig Macmillan  5:35  Obviously, there's a lot of variation placed to place region to region. And so how do you account for that?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  5:41  This is a nice question, because it was the most difficult part.   Craig Macmillan  5:45  Yeah, I would imagine Yeah,   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  5:47  For developing this. For accounting this of course, we have weather records from different stations located in different regions of the country, which are close to the vineyards, we use for validating this this model. But we also took into account soil properties such as texture, organic matter, which also vary a lot from region to region, we added two different equations depending on if the soil is calcareous or nor calcareouse, because the hydraulic properties of the soil would be right in case of high calcium carbonate content. But these are the main the main aspects, but there is a parameter within the model that also arise depending on the on the variety, we can imagine this parameter as the threshold of soil water content, until which the given variety of grapevine begins to show signs of water stress. Unfortunately, we could not make a lot of measurements to obtain a wider range of of values for this parameter. According to the data that we have for five varieties, it was very similar, independently of the of the region in which the vineyard is located. So it's more dependent on the variety itself than on the on the location. These are the three main aspects that allow us for four plus eight capturing the variability within within the regions.   Craig Macmillan  7:20  If I was using such a tool, I would give my location that will tell me a lot about what region I'm in, it'll tell me some things. Then you mentioned we put in like the density, the spacing, because that's going to have to what to do with the total leaf area per hectare? Basically, variety, you'd put in varieties as well.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  7:38  Yes, but for accounting for a variety, we also asked, they use it too, to provide their date of bud break. Because it's different depending on the region and also on the variety.   Craig Macmillan  7:51  Okay, so they'll tell me about the season, we're talking about, like season long recommendations. So at the beginning of the season, I would say okay, this is what I'm shooting for. And I would actually put in this is the the vine water status that I would like this is the lead potential I'd like to see. And then it'll say, okay, based on the historical weather, and based on all these other factors, we believe that applying this amount of water would really have that result eventually.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  8:18  That is how it works right now planning to adopt it. But we need help from some company or some people who is expert on computer science, we are planning to develop a tool with the aid of some computer science guys or programmers that allow us to divide the growing season in, let's say, to flowering or flower into venison. Verasion to harvest for instance, on the other hand, using four stages, for instance, ranges of water potentials were tabulated more or less. And the objectives are for the wine producing end user, let's say we'll have the curve that is produced by the model, but in this case, divided into four stages and with the theoretical curve that we should have in order to produce a certain type of wine. So we will be able to say ahead or behind the limit. During this specific stage of the growing season. Suppose you have to apply more water or you should not apply water.   Craig Macmillan  9:35  There's a lot a lot of different ways of trying to achieve this. And that's why this one seems to be kind of a new approach. Even if you're in the development stage. It's still a very intriguing concept and how it might be how it might be applied. And tell me more about how do you actually fit these different pieces together because you got work in a vineyard in one region and work in another you got weather information. You found some way correlating these things with the outcome that you're interested in, which is the water potential.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  10:04  It was kind of difficult but not not so much as as at a first glance, it would be within a soil water balance you have your result is the soil water content at any specific date. But in order to get to that, you need to know the soil water content, let's say the previous day, but you also have already rainfall, you calculate transpiration of the values, the evaporation from the soil is just putting those pieces together that make the thing work. It's It's not so difficult, it's kind of intriguing too, because all these these parts have their equations in the middle to get to them. But in the end is just fit a soil water balance model with with the data from the different, let's say inputs that you have.   Craig Macmillan  10:54  And essentially you as your career actually, I've looked at some of the other things you've done, you do find good fits, you can take multiple variables, this very complicated world. And when you kind of put it all together, you can start to get a picture, you can actually get some fixes to some other variable   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  11:15  Sometimes is easier than some others. So we tried also to model genes, that was very more, much more difficult. We got two nice results. But there was a lot of variation, depending on on climate and in also on the irrigation management. When we validated this other model for dealing with data from from Spain, if I remember correctly, there were poor regions within Spain. It worked well for some regions, but it didn't work for for some others, we didn't get to the solution to get a unique model for all the regions for for GLD. Also, because we combine a deal with dry matter partitioning within the plant.   Craig Macmillan  12:06  Oh, interesting.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  12:07  Yes. And we did that in collaboration with with American professional.   Craig Macmillan  12:14  Who's that?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  12:15  Alan Luxo from the from Cornell University.   Craig Macmillan  12:18  Oh, fantastic. Cool.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  12:20  Yes, because at that moment in time, my supervisor have made it previously researcher stay in at Cornell University with this professor, he began with the with modeling. In that case, it was apple trees. And we adapted that model to vineyards.   Craig Macmillan  12:40  The cross crop work, it's fascinating because you know, grape vines are a very unusual, kind of unique plant cropping world. But they do have a lot in common with other, you know, Woody perennial crops, other orchard crops. And if we can take the research that's done across multiple areas and use it that's really exciting, increases the efficiency and increases the depth of what we can do, which I really, really like, how you validate this model, where you have people try it, and then you'll come out and you'll take measurements or have them take measurements.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  13:14  For developing the model, we employ that it's a restricted set of that of data, in order to the few parameters that are inside the construction of the model. But we have met so many experiments within the consortium, that we were working on this decision support systems. So we have finally had a set of more than 100 scenarios to validate the model with data collected from the field. In some cases, we have both soil water content and stem water potential. In some others, we only have a stem water potential. So we tested the model against those data. In many cases it worked well. In a few instances, it didn't work well, because of we detected several particularities within the vineyards we use to test the modeling in a given region. For instance, if is you want me to give any an example a specific example, in a region in western Spain southwest, Southwest or Spain, we have vineyard that the field data said that during the summer, it was not as water stress, as the model is saying that it was a fact is a that was occurring is that the vineyard was very close to a river. So it is it is likely that the water table rose within those periods, or that the vine roots were able to reach that water table and the moel wasn't able to capture that. That feature.   Craig Macmillan  14:54  No, but I would imagine if I'm using a tool like that, and I know my sight like can take that kind of thing into account could say, why would a little bit of experience you can say I always know that this recommendation is a little bit higher than what I actually need. But by using that I can say, well, then I'm going to use this number stead. That's kind of the idea. Now, do you see this technology leading to increases in efficiency, reduced water use or just more efficient water use?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  15:22  I like to seem that, that this is a step forward to auto efficient water use in vineyards. But maybe at this moment is, too let's say it's a scope is too broad. And we have to work on in order to be more specific, or I don't know the word in English.   Craig Macmillan  15:43  Particular.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  15:44  The idea is that to be able from this from this, let's say decision to port that we have to build more detailed decision support system that allows allows end users to manage irrigation on a daily or we'll be on a weekly basis, but it's still some work to do.   Craig Macmillan  16:07  Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is this is early days, and this tool isn't isn't out yet. So we wanted to talk about the the concept, which is fascinating, which always reminds me of something I noticed when I was doing the research, you mentioned a consortium, when you look up these topics, you'll hit pages that have many, many different organizations listed at the bottom. And I believe you just moved around between a couple that are part of the same group or consortium is what it looks like, how does this work you've got you've got different agencies, you have different educational institutions, you have different departments have different parts of government that are collaborating, they're working together, they're coordinating what they do, is that how this works.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  16:44  In his particular case, this project came from a network of collaboration, which was funded by the the Spanish government. And that involved, I don't remember how many but maybe 12 institutions that work on different aspects of viticulture, in order to increase the impact of their research that is really done. Because sometimes, I don't know if this happens in the States. But in Spain, we have the problem that many times we work isolated once from the others, and then our research doesn't reach the level of impact that the funding agencies desire. So in order to, to overcome this weakness, the main funding agency for research here in Spain, asks for creating networks of specific topics, between several research institutes, maybe research institutes, but also universities, and in some cases, private companies, but this later is less frequent.   Craig Macmillan  17:58  Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting there's there's more kind of a multi organizational collaboration here in the United States all the time, we've noticed for a particular topic, and some folks are working on this and some folks are kind of working on this and and coming back with things from different regions or different aspects, but they can all be brought into kind of a coordinated outcome for growers is very, very, very, very practical and very exciting. Is there one thing that you would say to a grower regarding this idea of decision support systems, especially around things like irrigation or fertilizers, or one piece of advice or something that they should be excited about or one reason why they might want to consider using such a tool when it becomes available.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  18:39  Nowadays, the number of decision support system is increasing. There are many companies which are developing tools or recycling other tools coming from other let's say, organizations must be aware that the decision support system generally, which is those that I know that are available on the market are general not specific for a given crop. In order to obtain the best results is is better to have a specific decision support system. So that's for one for the one part. And the second part is that in the end, these are tools to help making decisions, but one cannot disregard the experience of the grower. Of course, in the end these these kind of decision support systems might must be used as a tool. If you allow me to give a recent experience that I have working with a private company, not in the case of vineyards, it was developing a general platform for aiding in irrigation decisions. The final aim that they have is to automate the process of irrigation this can be a little bit dangerous, because if you if you let a model perform the whole process of ollecting that data, make a decision and then execute that decision in the whole process, they can be accumulation of errors that may give a final response, which is not the desired one.   Craig Macmillan  20:15  What you're getting out and you've touched on and what makes sense is it's a decision support. It's not decision, it's not making a decision for you. It's saying, This is what the model says. And you say, Yeah, okay, I hadn't thought of that, or, okay, that works. Or, okay, let's try that. It's not just executing it. I mean, you know, I can imagine I can imagine a world where you would have a decision system that would take all this into account, and then it would open the irrigation valves automatically. And that may not be where we really want to be headed. The human is always going to be the arbiter, that the human is going to be the decision maker, this is about providing the best information to help make a good decision. That's it. And I think that that's really, really crucial, because I am familiar with another variety of other systems. So we look at all this information. And the readings might say, Okay, this is the direction to go, or this is this is what you should do or that, but the grower will say, That's fine for this variety on this root stock on this soil. Absolutely. That works. For me, that makes sense. But we know for a fact that this variety on this root stock on this soil is not going to work because of the experience with all the details. And I've had some very interesting conversations with folks where I'm looking at the database stuff and saying, Hey, these vines look fine, there's plenty of water, the water potential looks great. There's water in the soil, everything seems to be fine. And the grower says, Well, we're going to irrigate. And I'm like, that seems surprising to me. And they say, Well, under this condition, this variety will collapse out of nowhere, when it hits a certain threshold, and I want to make sure we don't get anywhere near that threshold. So that that information was useful for making decisions in one scenario, they make a slightly different decision in another scenario, and literally those two spots are across the road from each other. A lot of similarities between the two but the grower has that has that experience to say yeah, but under certain conditions, this is what's going to happen. And so again, it's about having the best information to make the best choice, but the human is the one that's going to make the call the human is never gonna go away. And I would be really fascinated once you have once this stuff becomes available. I would love to see some research on how people use it, how people use the technology. Where can people find out more about you?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  22:37  I have profiling on research gate which is a social network for researchers there you can find my All my publications in a no the top is a working over my ground and also on LinkedIn.   Craig Macmillan  22:52  Fantastic. Yep, I found you very easily and you have a lot on there and a whole variety of other topics that we will have don't have time to get to today, but it's really cool work. So our guest today has been José Manuel Mirás Avalos. He is a scientist at Misión Biológica de Galicia in the Spanish Nation Research Council. Spain with the center Spanish Research Council was the one well, thanks for being here. This is really interesting stuff.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  23:13  Thank you very much, Craig. It was a pleasure for me to talk to you   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Beyond doing good by the environment and your community, your sustainably certified wine grapes differentiate your brand in today’s oversaturated wine market. But do you know how much of a value-driver your certification really is? Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Marketing Tip, get insight into the significance of sustainably grown grapes in the larger market from Gregg Hibbits, who has nearly 30 years of experience selling wine grapes. Over this course of his career, he has experienced a shift in what his grape-buying clients are looking for. Keep reading for highlights from his interview on Episode #83 of the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Buyers with Different Interests Each client, Hibbits says, has different interests. Many winemakers have deep and long-standing interests in sustainability because they believe in its mission: creating high-quality products through protecting, conserving, and regenerating resources so people of today and the future can prosper. They seek out certified sustainable grapes that align with their values. Other buyers believe that sustainability is the direction the industry is going. They feel a push from the market and the trade to produce wine from sustainably farmed grapes, so it is part of their purchasing criteria when they source fruit. Furthermore, sustainability is a value-driver for investors. Businesses want to report back to their investors that the product they are supporting is both of high-quality and reaches exceptional levels in environmental and social health. But he notes a change in his clients over his career. Higher Demands, Higher Premiums Hibbits tells Sustainable Winegrowing, “There’s absolutely no question that people are more demanding on every front now.” Buyers are demanding sustainability. Now, the topic comes up early in conversations with buyers – something, Hibbits says, was not the case 15 years ago. But he has been able to fulfill those demands, and has been rewarded in the form of premiums. “Sometimes it’s as simple as being able to sell your grapes when nobody else can – that’s a premium. And then sometimes when the market is in a different place, the premium is a true premium: I can get $200 - $300 a ton more for my sustainably certified or organic grapes.” And this is something we hear from SIP Certified growers time and time again: John Niven, Cadre Wines “Buyers are looking for wines that have responsible farming practices, are aware of environmental issues, and, of course, are of high quality. The SIP Certified program has added value to our wines allowing us to demonstrate our ability to fulfill all of the desired criteria that buyers look for.” Austin Hope, Hope Family Wines “More and more, we’re being asked about our sustainability efforts in the vineyard and winery. Being SIP Certified is an easy way for us to quantify our practices and tell the consumer and trade about how we run our operation in a way that’s better for the land, the wine and the community”. Adam LaZarre, Broadside Wine “For us, having our wines SIP Certified is easily the best way to let our entire audience know we are sincere about doing the right thing for the health of our vineyards, customers, and employees... I know for a fact that this is a HUGE selling point for our wines.” If your Grapes are SIP Certified… … it’s easier now than ever to put the SIP Certified logo on your wine bottles. Thanks to the latest SIP Certified database feature, you can create a wine application in just a few minutes. Say goodbye to the days of documents and information getting lost in months-old email threads, and instead, upload everything straight to your application. Learn how to Apply for SIP Certified Wine today!   We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

While the tradition of wine is still important to how we connect with customers, the way that we communicate has changed. David Avrin, President of The Customer Experience Advantage explains why brands must have an omnichannel approach to their customer communication. Identify which channels are most valuable to your business by defining your core audience. Then find out what they watch, what they read, and where they recreate. Use these insights to harness the technology that your customers use whether its snail mail or TikTok. David reminds us that there is no shame in not being comfortable with technology but there is no excuse to not work with a technology native who does understand the platforms that best reach your audience. Resources:         82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer 85: It‘s Time for New Wine Sales Strategies 98: Selling Wine in Non-Traditional Channels 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine David Avrin Website David Avrin Books David Avrin LinkedIn David Avrin YouTube Social Media: Facebook | Instagram Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is David Avrin. He is president of the customer experience advantage. Today we're going to talk about a little bit about the business side, and how that applies sustainability in the wine industry. Thanks for being on the podcast.   David Arvin  0:14  Thank you very much for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:16  Now, we've talked about wineries vineyards, but their businesses. In your mind, what are some of the important things that winery and vineyard owners might think about in terms of making their companies sustainable into the future?   David Arvin  0:29  Yeah, it's interesting, because I think the industry certainly has been around for a very long time. And when it goes back to Biblical times, and there's there's certain ways that vineyard owners, those who are in the business suppliers, and others, this is how we do business, this is how it's done. But what's interesting is for the rest of us, who are the wine consumers, our lives have changed. And it's actually for everybody, right? How we connect, and share and grow our own businesses, and our changing expectations for access and immediacy, and flexibility, all of that has changed. So I think part of future proofing your business is striking that balance between the traditions, that, that go into making a great vintage wine, and how we interact and how we engage as consumers in the b2b side with distributors and others as well. So many of those mechanisms have changed. So I think what's really important is for people to be very clear on the technologies that are expected, and the ones that facilitate great communication in great relationships. I saw a study the other day, and the gist of it said that, that companies today are expected to deploy technology that allows their customers to do business with them, not from home, from anywhere, at any time, I don't expect that I can get my hair cut at four o'clock in the morning, but I expect that I can make an appointment to do so or cancel that appointment. So I think it's a very unique industry, because the traditions and what is tried and true and effective are so important to maintain, so important to pass along from generation to generation, but how we connect and communicate and deliver those services, those products, all of that has changed. We need to stay on the front end of that.   Craig Macmillan  2:09  One of the attractions of wine, I think, in my experience with customers, is this traditional aspect this is this is something mystical about it. And how do we maintain that kind of magical quality to a product, when we need to engage with the customer in more electronic ways or more distant ways, and maybe without as much touch?   David Arvin  2:31  I think it's just the business part of it, that it requires that kind of an expeditious, ease of use kind of a methodology are really virtual wine tastings unless you're actually tasting wine in different locations and connecting electronically.   Craig Macmillan  2:46  And that's happened.   David Arvin  2:47  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We did it during COVID. We had so many double dates with my wife and some other couples and stuff, and just opportunity just over a glass of wine and some dinner, to just hang out with each other. It's one of things we learned during the pandemic that was possible. But I think when I've talked about the technology, I think it really is purely just how do we do business, my, my mantra, my new book is all about how to be how to become ridiculously easy to do business with. And so I think fortunately for the industry, I think the traditions still hold true. I think in person, wine tastings and wine enjoys and pairings at restaurants, I think a lot of that will pretty much stay the same. I think it's we're always want to stay on the forefront of that. But it's the the communication, the distribution, the marketing. There are so many new amazing mechanisms now to reach our target market, which is shifting, of course, we can talk about that. But it's using the mechanisms that they use. And so we can be traditional, but we certainly don't want to be seen as stodgy or antiquated, or old school. And so I think there's there's a really wonderful balance that in the terminus is fully intentional, because there's so much that balance comes into this industry. But I think in terms of our communication and our marketing and our in person enjoyment. I think that part's all very important.   Craig Macmillan  4:07  He mentioned the generational change. And that's an issue for the wine business, the generation that really brought us to where we are today, their children, and then possibly their grandchildren are coming of age, they're coming of age. And the question is whether that love of the wine product has been passed on generationally or not. One thing that I learned from looking at some of your other talks and stuff was, it's about and you mentioned it was the ease of connection and the ease of doing business and convenience.   David Arvin  4:40  I think on the business side is that I think there's a great opportunity for the industry to become not just present and relevant but preferable to a new generation as well. It's not like there isn't a long history with wine. As I said, going back to Biblical times. They have survived so well over the years. But what's different is each generation How we communicate, and how we connect and reach out, all of that has changed. I think wine is uniquely positioned to capitalize on that new as long as these generations come to fruition that Gen X, the Gen Y, the Gen Z, and all of them as well, because I think there's a natural progression of maturity in the individual. It's like there's a space, I think, between the parties. And I remember when party was a noun, now it is a verb. And then of course, the the more traditional and stodgy. I think wine is uniquely placed in there. And so while the young people are, they're going to play drinking games at 18, to 23, 24, you know, playing quarters with beer, the opportunity when when it's time to grow up, we grab a glass of wine, and we connect together. So you might have party and the stodgy I think the middle is social. And I think wine has a phenomenal opportunity right now to be positioned as the social drinker, we're not drinking to get drunk. We're not drinking to be to be sophisticated in in our smoking jackets with a high ball and of whiskey. But I think wine lends itself phenomenally to visuals, as well. And so I think if you're going to compare it to industries that have survived and thrived in that transition, I think coffee is probably the best. I mean, we grew up our parents, you go down, look for 15 cents, get a cup of joe. Well, now everybody's enjoying coffee, it's become more profitable, it's become more prevalent, because they've looked at a couple of things. One is the social aspect. And Starbucks had a big role to play in how we look at that experiential thing. But it's also a grab and go kind of an item, being able to recognize how easy do we do that and take that to the office. And that industry has done it very well. No, wine, of course, is something different. We don't necessarily take to the office, but the visuals of people who have come of age socializing, and not just drunk at a frat party, I think there's wonderful opportunities in terms of our marketing to say, when you're when you finally grown up, this is how we connect, this is how we socialize. And the other part of it, I think, is the packaging. And this part has been really fun for us because we are of the mind of so many, that when we get invited to a gathering, we always come with a bottle of wine. What's interesting is talking to others that one of the primary drivers. And this really takes us back to like 50 60, 70s was the emergence of clever and attractive packaging. It's less important today in other industries. But I think it's more important in the wine industry. The clever names, the clever packaging, so many people I've talked to say, I just thought this bottle looks so cool. And that's the one that they bring, right. That's not the bottle we tend to open up we like to display because there's so much creativity in that the elegant yesteryear of wine was a very elegant, labelled today. They're whimsical, they're fanciful, they're, they're tongue in cheek, and everything from the 99 crimes that you can scan and get a little story about them to Menage a Trios, which, which, you know, gives people a little bit of a smile when you realize the the inference, I think is such an exciting industry right now. I think the biggest population bubble in history is coming of age, and the perfect target. And then we look at the social how they communicate as well. Whether it's Instagram, or tick tock, for others, as well short form social short form video, it lends itself so well, two people connecting and gathering and enjoying life and sharing a bottle of wine.   Craig Macmillan  8:23  I'm a dinosaur, I just turned 55. And I work sometimes in the tasting room, the winery where I work now Niner Wine Estates, as time went on, it became very clear that I was not able to communicate with my coworkers, because they were talking about Instagram, they were using Twitter, they were Venmoing everything like I couldn't even be involved in social gatherings without getting Venmo on my phone. It's a here's 20 bucks and like, I don't want that. No, I wanted my Venmo account. Yeah, so one of them actually offered to become my social media consultant. And that is still continued to this day. So how can we make it easy for the consumer to interact with winery, if the consumer is not either tech savvy or in my case doesn't want to be tech savvy.   David Arvin  9:11  The term that you're going to hear so often which is which is omni channel. And omni channel means no matter how they want to communicate with you give them that opportunity. I mean, you talk about Venmo, for example, and I speak to audiences around the world, I write books on all of this. And one of the things I talk about in the new book that I'm writing right now, which is called ridiculously easy to do business with one of the chapters is be ridiculously easy to pay, you know, somebody wants to pay you through Venmo Okay, and this is scary for people with very traditional businesses. And I'm like, oh my god, somebody's trying to give you money, say yes. As you had recognized sometimes it takes a younger person who is a technology native who is immersed in all of this to help you translate and help you implement. There is no shame in not being comfortable with some of the new social media platforms or mechanisms. There is no excuse to not work with somebody who is and just because it might be a little bit scary. And for I mean, if you're old, I'm ancient, my kids run circles around me are all of our kids where we've got a Brady Bunch, they're all sort of 20 to 29. And I've got two of them who do digital marketing and digital media for a living. I wrote books if you can, if you're watching the video behind me, I wrote books, and I couldn't keep up today. But what we do is we surround ourselves, we outsource we, we hand off to people who are comfortable with those mechanisms. So when I talked before up omni channel, we're all going to have people, we're going to have customers from 21 to 85 or above, they want to communicate with you differently, they want to access the product differently, some might be able to do sort of online video introductions, a tour of the winery, some things that look very experiential, and some are very, very comfortable using the app and doing things online ordering. And there's another segment that needs to talk to a person for for those in business, those who are listening to this podcast, you don't have to be all things to all people. But you have to be very clear of who your audience is, and who your future audience is. And make sure that you have the processes in place for them to reach you by phone, by text message. However, that might be an even if it's just the b2b aspect of your business and dealing with vendors and others as well. No matter how they want to communicate, try and make that available. We look at the lifetime value of our customers, both on the consumer side and also on the distribution side. being ridiculously easy to do business with is a competitive advantage today. And all of this is with a recognition that you have to be good at what you do, right? This isn't in lieu of a quality product, don't take your eye off the ball. But what's different today, what's different post pandemic is that our mechanisms for how do we communicate or pay or order or reorder have got to be simple and streamlined. And then when we look at the audience is how do they where are they getting their information if you want to really target those, those 21 to 30 year olds posting clever, engaging intent and enticing videos on Tik Tok or Instagram, it's not fluff, it's business. If that's where they get their information, you need to be there. You need to be there effective.   Craig Macmillan  12:11  And that raises another question. I think it's tough for a lot of businesses just in general, how do you keep up on all this stuff? As there's new applications? There's new channels, there's new preferences, that's another one Pay Pal was the thing. So yeah, Pay Pal? I'm cool PayPal Venmo I'd never heard of it until somebody demanded that as a payment. If I'm the general manager of a business or if I'm an executive, how do I stay on top of this?   David Arvin  12:34  Um, first of all, is the recognition you don't have to do everything. Because it is overwhelming. It's 100%. You don't have to be on every social media platform. You don't have to take every form of payment. You don't have to take Bitcoin, I would advise against it. But it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be a student of business be a lifelong learner of business. And there's no shortage of content available online. That tells you here the the the hottest trends, how do millennials or Gen Z prefer to communicate what is their greatest influence into what they buy? When and why just read I mean, there's videos on on online every day, part of my responsibility to my clients and my audiences that I serve is I need to be very, very current. There was somebody who had booked me to to keynote a conference and that's my my primary business as a keynote speaker. And it was six months away. And they asked if I would send they were finalizing things if I would send my slide deck. And I said, I'm happy to send my slide deck but understand it's not what I'm going to present to you in six months, because things will change between now and that whether you have a second generation who's moving up within your business, make sure that you have people of all ages in the room as you discuss strategy. I think to answer your question, just be a student of this there is no shortage go on YouTube is the second biggest search engine in the world only second to Google, and it's owned by Google. But YouTube is a wonderful way to have just looking at stories and news clips and others about what are the latest trends. How are they predominantly buying? Where does Gen Z get most of their information? Right? I saw some of the day was fascinating that Disney was suffering in a significant way just because the youngest of our people are getting most of their videos and content online now on YouTube and others and it's in lieu of that it's not like they did anything wrong. Bed Bath and Beyond goes bankrupt not because they did a bad job. It's that we had changed and how we buy and how we connect we just get it delivered to our house through Amazon or something else. So I for me, I think it's it's a it's an exciting thing. It's a positive thing to be a constant learner, stay up to date and relieve yourself of the pressure to do everything. Just look who is my core audience? What do they watch? What do they read? Where do they recreate and congregate and dine and connect and are we there? And are we there in a way that is is not just present and not overly salesy. Persuasive and social and big the big rule in social media is don't sell share.   Craig Macmillan  15:04  I was reading something this morning, which reminded me of a topic that we had talked about internally in our winery. And that is the the idea of story. You just mentioned that storytelling. We also know that attention spans are short. And we know that a lot of us technology is set up for no more than a minute, two minutes, three minutes, how do I tell a really compelling story in a short amount of time? there's   David Arvin  15:28  Well,  two ways to do it. One is a story, a traditional story. And that might be through an article, it might be through a longer form video, it tells us a situation or something about a Thanksgiving dinner, and something that emotional happens. And you see that on the table. Most of story today, in terms of short form, video format, is literally very short. It can be a 22nd, Instagram reel, with pictures and pictures and pictures and lots of lots of music. I think the best example, if you think and look at how pharmaceutical companies are doing their commercials today, for Jardiance, or whatever those might be, whether it's a musical number, how often you see seniors at a farmers market, or at a kid's birthday party, but they're showing them connecting, and being being social, and family. And they just put these scenarios, you don't really know what the whole story is. But it puts it within the context as opposed to somebody holding up the product. And talking about the product. It's what do we want people to feel and I think that's the greatest opportunity for wine today, when looking at Gen Y millennials, or Gen Z is is is showing them in the in the kinds of situations that makes sense. It's laughter It's friendship, it's it's connecting, but it's also post fraternity party, it's post red solo cup, I could see a great ad campaign when you're ready to graduate from the red solo cup to a nice glass of Chardonnay, right? But that doesn't mean that somebody's 60 years old, it can be young and sophisticated. And the romance and all of that I think the stories can be told in short form, through the visuals, you know, and the music and all the things that and once again, here's here's a great thing about about YouTube, you can go on YouTube and search, how do you use YouTube? And you'll see a million videos, how do you create Instagram reels that capture the attention or look for others within your industry don't copy but emulate you know, which are the ones that get engagement and why I think it's an exciting thing to become a student of this. And I've learned so much from my kids who are no longer kids. My oldest daughter works for the number one social media channel on the planet. And they post videos and they get between 40 and 50 million views on their videos in the first 24 hours. Wow. And so what I'm learning from them is astonishing. And did I mention I wrote books on this?   Craig Macmillan  15:29  You said you've got one out right now what is that?   David Arvin  17:22  Yeah, well, but my new subject, and it's not really new. But I realized about seven or eight years ago because I talked about marketing and branding for most of my career, what are the what are the words we use that best describe and differentiate what we do in the marketplace. And I came to the recognition probably seven or eight years ago that we had changed in such a substantial way because of social proof that what we say about ourselves, is not unimportant, but it's not nearly important, today's what other people say about us. And it's Yelp and TripAdvisor and rotten tomatoes, and Glassdoor and of course all of the your own social media sites. So I might that's what led to my research would lead to my book, why customers leave and how to win them back is one of the points of frustration, friction in the process, unnecessary delays and, and lack of convenience for certain things. My whole business changed. And so all of my work and my research and my speaking and my books are around the central theme that in a marketplace where everybody's good. The winners are the ones who are ridiculously easy to do business with.   Craig Macmillan  18:56  I think you just answered the question, but what is the one thing you'd recommend?   David Arvin  19:00  There's two aspects Well, once the business aspect, and the other one is the marketing. So I think in terms of internal process, you have to be able to replicate what we're seeing in a broader marketplace. You have to be able to reach somebody, if somebody's yelling into the phone agent, real person real person, you're doing something wrong, right doesn't mean we can staff 24 hours but we're learning we can learn from Uber and Amazon and Domino's and others as well in terms of how do they use the mobile technology to make it super easy to reach someone to ask a question to reorder, make sure you have an off ramp so they can talk to a real person. That's the ridiculously easy walk your customers journey. Are there too many steps? How long is your contracts, we're seeing companies reducing their contracts and things that are really relevant and important. Be easy to work with your distributors and your vendors and others as well. And then of course on the marketing side is just recognize who not only your buyers are today, but your future buyers. Beware they are speaking language that's persuasive, authentic for them as well. And I think this this is one in industry and I speak to industries that are really struggling. I think the sky's the limit for the wine industry.   Craig Macmillan  20:05  So where can people find out more about you?   David Arvin  20:08  You find me online. My name is David Averin AVRIN, I'm on all social media on some of them. It's the real David AVRIN. That's a whole cat fish for another day. But you can look me up at Davidavrin.com or just google music videos as well. And as we had said, Before I speak and I consult. I love talking business. I'm a fan of business and I'm very optimistic about where we are post pandemic.   Craig Macmillan  20:32  Fantastic. Hey, we gotta go. Thanks for being on the podcast. David. Our guest today was David Avrin, president of the customer experience advantage   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. A few years ago, Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the US market and we wondered “how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences?” Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we’re revisiting the six wine consumer segments and giving you tips on how to most effectively share your sustainable story with each one.   1. Engaged Explorers Who are they: Young, adventurist, frequent wine drinkers who love to try wines from different regions and producers. Talk SIP: Tell them how you improve your soil quality and how the health of your land influences the characteristics of your wine. They’ll love learning how nature impacts a high-quality wine.   2. Premium Brand Suburban Who are they: Mid- to older-aged enthusiasts who know a lot about wine. They may not be big spenders, but they can be die-hard loyalists. Talk SIP: Get technical! Talk about how fruit quality is measured (Brix, pH, and TA). They’ll love the insight and attention to detail.   3. Contended Treaters Who are they: Mid- to older-aged drinkers who don’t drink often, but when they do, they are willing to spend more. They are knowledgeable and involved, and look for an engaging story to relay to their social circles. Talk SIP: Give them fun sustainable tidbits to share with their friends, like a specific sustainable practice from your sustainable story worksheet. Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling   4. Social Newbies Who are they: Young, new to wine, and rely heavily upon recommendations and valued information. Talk SIP: Stick to the 3 P’s of sustainability: People, Planet, Prosperity. They’ll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.   5. Senior Bargain Hunters Who are they: The largest segment of wine drinkers in USA. They have strong wine knowledge and tend to select from a narrow range of styles and brands to meet their expectations on value. Talk SIP: Talk value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.   6. Kitchen Casuals Who are they: Very infrequent wine drinkers who stay close to what they know. Talk SIP: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking sustainable wine is a win for the people and the planet. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Marketing Tips eNewsletter ReSIProcal February Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member