198 – Conservative Cagematch – Burke vs Strauss

Ever since Leo Strauss published his magnum opus Natural Right and History, which ends by heavily implying Edmund Burke opened the door for the evils of historicism in the modern world, a great fissure in conservative nerddom erupted between those who align with either titan. Were Strauss' criticism of Burke warranted? Did Burke disavow natural rights and pave the way for the evils of authoritarianism, fascism, Marxism, and progressivism to come? Does a careful, esoteric reading of Natural Right and History reveal the Strauss secret family chili recipe? Saving Elephants has assembled an all-star panel to answer these questions and more.   Representing Edmund Burke: Dr. Gregory Collins is one of the most celebrated Burke scholars of the rising generation. He is a Lecturer in the Department of Political Science and Program on Ethics, Politics, and Economics at Yale University. He recently received the Buckley Institute's 2024 Lux and Veritas Faculty Prize. His first book, Commerce and Manners in Edmund Burke's Political Economy, examined Edmund Burke's understanding of the connection between markets and morals. Greg has also published articles on Adam Smith, F.A. Hayek, Frederick Douglass, Eric Voegelin, Leo Strauss, and Britain's East India Company. His additional writings and book reviews can be found in Modern Age, Law & Liberty, National Affairs, National Review, and University Bookman.  You can follow Greg on Twitter @GregCollins111   Lauren Hall is an author and professor helping people combat overwhelm in an age of extremes. Her writing rejects binary and black-and-white thinking to help people lead more balanced lives, build stronger relationships, and restore individual and civic well-being. Hall is a 2024 Pluralism Fellow with the Mercatus Center's Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange and serves on the Board of Advisors for the Prohuman Foundation. Her Substack and speaking spread the message of radical moderation to new audiences via public writing, speaking, and podcast interviews. Hall has presented her work on radical moderation at conferences including the Heterodox Academy Conference, the State Policy Network Conference, the Mercatus Center's Pluralism Summit, and various political science and related conferences and has a range of talks and podcast interviews available on radical moderation and other topics. In her "real" job, she is a Professor of Political Science and Associate Dean of Academic Affairs at the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) and author of the books Family and the Politics of Moderation (Baylor U. Press, 2014) and The Medicalization of Birth and Death (Johns Hopkins U. Press, 2019). Hall has a PhD in Political Science from Northern Illinois University (2007) and a BA in Philosophy from Binghamton University (2002).   Representing Strauss: Steven F. Hayward is a fellow of the Public Law and Policy Program at Berkeley Law and visiting professor in School of Public Policy at Pepperdine University. Steven frequently writes on a wide range of current topics, including environmentalism, law, economics, and public policy for publications including National Review, Reason, The Weekly Standard, The American Spectator, The Public Interest, the Claremont Review of Books, and the Policy Review at the Hoover Institution.  His newspaper articles have appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Chicago Tribune, and dozens of other daily newspapers. He is the author of a two-volume narrative history of Ronald Reagan and his effect on American political life, The Age of Reagan: The Fall of the Old Liberal Order, 1964-1980, and The Age of Reagan: The Conservative Counter-Revolution, 1980-1989.  His other books include Index of Leading Environmental Indicators; The Almanac of Environmental Trends; Mere Environmentalism: A Biblical Perspective on Humans and the Natural World, Churchill on Leadership; Greatness: Reagan, Churchill, and the Making of Extraordinary Leaders; Patriotism Is Not Enough; and M. Stanton Evans: Conservative Wit, Apostle of Freedom. Steven has also served as visiting fellow professor, scholar, or lecturer at the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (ISI), Ashland University, Mont Pelerin Society, Pacific Research Institute, The Heritage Foundation, American Enterprise Institute, Georgetown University, The Fund for American Studies, and University of Colorado Boulder. His blog, powerlineblog.com, is one of the nation's most-read political websites.   The international woman of mystery, Lucretia, teaches at the University of Arizona.  Steve and Lucretia—along with John Yoo—host the 3 Whiskey Happy Hour podcast.  

While Saving Elephants is dedicated to offering the conservative intellectual tradition in mercifully modern vernacular, fellow podcaster Nic Dunn has been on a similar mission: making the work of policy institutions more digestible.  Nic joins Josh for a conversation around the important role policy can play in defusing political tension, alleviating poverty, and expanding the freedom and opportunities all Americans seek.   About Nic Dunn Bio from Sutherland Institute   Nic Dunn serves as Vice President of Strategy and Senior Fellow at Sutherland Institute. As VP of Strategy, Nic oversees the execution and strategic external impact of Sutherland's written and multimedia policy content. In his capacity as Senior Fellow, he leads the policy research, coalition building, and public advocacy for policies that strengthen opportunity and upward mobility. This policy focus includes social safety net reform, workforce issues, and support for the well-being of men and boys. His expert commentary and analysis can be found on Sutherland's weekly podcast, Defending Ideas, which he hosts, as well as in major outlets like Deseret News, Washington Examiner, National Review, and other Utah print and radio outlets.   Nic brings more than 13 years of experience in public policy and strategic communications spanning state and local government and the private sector. Prior to Sutherland, Nic served as director of Utah Community Builders, the Salt Lake Chamber's nonprofit social impact foundation. In that role, Nic worked with the private sector to advance statewide initiatives in mental health, family policy, and upward mobility. Nic is also a member of the AEI Leadership Network, and the co-chair of the Salt Lake County Intergenerational Poverty Task Force.   In other previous work, Nic ran public policy for the Utah Valley Chamber, served as senior policy advisor to Salt Lake County Councilwoman Aimee Winder Newton, directed media relations for the Utah Department of Workforce Services, and worked on Gov. Gary Herbert's communications staff as lead speechwriter.   Nic has a master's degree in public policy from the University of Utah and dual bachelor's degrees in broadcast journalism and political science from the University of Nevada, Reno. Nic and his wife, Lizzie, live in Eagle Mountain with their two sons.   Introducing Conservative Cagematches Ever since Leo Strauss published his magnum opus Natural Right and History, which ends by heavily implying Edmund Burke opened the door for the evils of historicism in the modern world, a great fissure in conservative nerddom erupted between those who align with either titan.   Were Strauss' criticism of Burke warranted? Did Burke disavow natural rights and pave the way for the evils of authoritarianism, fascism, Marxism, and progressivism to come? Does a careful, esoteric reading of Natural Right and History reveal the Strauss secret family chili recipe?   On Wednesday, March 4 at 6PM EST / 5PM CST, Saving Elephants will assemble an all-star panel to answer these questions and more.   Representing Edmund Burke: Greg Collins of Yale University and Lauren Hall of the Rochester Institute of Technology   Representing Leo Strauss: Steve Hayward of Pepperdine and the international woman of mystery, Lucretia of the University of Arizona   You can watch the livestream on YouTube or Facebook  

For good or ill, the post World War II era built by the Baby Boomers seems to be rapidly coming to an end.  But what will replace it?  What might be done to prevent global conflicts and bloodshed as the old order begins to break down?  And what should younger conservatives seek to conserve in this era of chaotic change?  Joining Saving Elephants host Josh Lewis is Director of Research at the Danube Institute, Calum Nicholson to share how the Anglosphere often misunderstands the way the rest of the world thinks and how that might help us better prepare for what's ahead. About Calum Nicholson From the University of Cambridge bio With a background in social anthropology and human geography, Dr Calum T. M. Nicholson has conducted original research that reconsiders how we understand the societal implications of climate change, notably in the context of its relationship to human migration and international development. A former development consultant and Parliamentary researcher, at PACE Dr Nicholson teaches courses on international development, international migration, and the politics of climate change. Dr Nicholson also teaches a well-received course on the political, cultural, and historical significance of social media. He is currently Director of Research at the Danube Institute, and was formerly Director of the Climate Policy Institute. His new book is entitled Climate Migration: critical perspectives for law, policy, and research.   Introducing Conservative Cagematches Ever since Leo Strauss published his magnum opus Natural Right and History, which ends by heavily implying Edmund Burke opened the door for the evils of historicism in the modern world, a great fissure in conservative nerddom erupted between those who align with either titan. Were Strauss' criticism of Burke warranted? Did Burke disavow natural rights and pave the way for the evils of authoritarianism, fascism, Marxism, and progressivism to come? Does a careful, esoteric reading of Natural Right and History reveal the Strauss secret family chili recipe? On Wednesday, March 4 at 6PM EST / 5PM CST, Saving Elephants will assemble an all-star panel to answer these questions and more. Representing Edmund Burke: Greg Collins of Yale University and Lauren Hall of the Rochester Institute of Technology Representing Leo Strauss: Steve Hayward of Pepperdine and the international woman of mystery, Lucretia of the University of Arizona You can watch the livestream on YouTube or Facebook  

In a world of exhaustive binary thinking sometimes complexity offers relief.  Lauren Hall joins the show to offer her alternative living in 4D she calls "radical moderation".  In the latter half of the conversation Saving Elephants host Josh Lewis happily takes Lauren up on her offer to geek out on Edmund Burke.   About Lauren Hall Excerpts from laurenkhall.com   Lauren Hall is an author and professor helping people combat overwhelm in an age of extremes. Her writing rejects binary and black-and-white thinking to help people lead more balanced lives, build stronger relationships, and restore individual and civic well-being.   Hall is a 2024 Pluralism Fellow with the Mercatus Center's Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange and serves on the Board of Advisors for the Prohuman Foundation. Her Substack and speaking spread the message of radical moderation to new audiences via public writing, speaking, and podcast interviews.   Hall has presented her work on radical moderation at conferences including the Heterodox Academy Conference, the State Policy Network Conference, the Mercatus Center's Pluralism Summit, and various political science and related conferences and has a range of talks and podcast interviews available on radical moderation and other topics.   In her "real" job, she is a Professor of Political Science and Associate Dean of Academic Affairs at the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) and author of the books Family and the Politics of Moderation (Baylor U. Press, 2014) and The Medicalization of Birth and Death (Johns Hopkins U. Press, 2019).   Hall has a PhD in Political Science from Northern Illinois University (2007) and a BA in Philosophy from Binghamton University (2002).   Introducing Conservative Cagematches One of the most invigorating and interesting aspects of conservative history is how often luminaries on the Right disagreed and fought one another.  From Strauss' take down on Burke to Frank Meyer defending his fusionist views from the likes of Brent Bozell and Murray Rothbard to Harry Jaffa fighting just about everyone, the Right has gained vitality and endurance through the process of disagreeing well (and sometimes not so well).   In that same spirit, Saving Elephants will soon launch a new venture: Conservative Cagematches.  These livestream events will feature experts and acolytes from differing schools of thought on the Right to engage in their differences.  We're working now to put together the first panel for an Edmund Burke vs. Leo Strauss debate and can't wait to share the august line-up we have so far.  More to come soon!  

Dr. Daniel Pitt and his imposing mustache joins Saving Elephants host Josh Lewis to explore the similarities and differences between American and British conservatism, proto-Burkean "conservative" thinkers, Pitt's personal relationship with Sir Roger Scruton, and the importance of unchosen obligations in a free society, all offered up in a wonderfully meandering conversation that nonetheless stays within the broader parameters of some conceivable structure analogous to the conservative vision of ordered liberty.  Undoubtedly, Michael Oakeshott would have been proud.   About Daniel Pitt Dr. Daniel Pitt is an honorary research fellow at the University of Buckingham and is also a member of the Centre for British Politics at the University of Hull.  He was a former graduate student of Sir Roger Scruton and the co-editor of Intellectual Conservatism: From Burke to Scruton.  You can follow Daniel on Twitter @DanJTPitt  

While Saving Elephants defends the classical conservative position, the loudest voices on the Right today coalesce around different policies, priorities, and goals.  Those that form the dissident Right are comprised of multiple sub-groups with overlapping and, at times, incompatible views.  So who is this disparate group of dissidents?  What holds them together, and how do they differ from conservatives?  Joining Saving Elephants host Josh Lewis is Stephanie Slade to explore the contours of the dissident Right.   About Stephanie Slade From reason.com Stephanie Slade is a senior editor at Reason, the magazine of "free minds and free markets," and a fellow in liberal studies at the Acton Institute. Her writing has appeared in America magazine, The New York Times, U.S. News and World Report, the Online Library of Liberty, and elsewhere. She covers the intersection of religion and politics.   Slade is best known for her piece "Why I Am a Pro-Life Libertarian," her magazine feature on booze-producing monks, and her defenses of "fusionism" (which probably isn't what you think!). Don't miss her discussing the differences between comprehensive and political libertarianism on The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie.   In 2013, Slade was named a finalist for the Bastiat Prize for Journalism. In 2016, she was selected as a Robert Novak Journalism Fellow. She serves as a member of the board of advisors for Young Voices and has been a guest on a variety of podcasts, including Jonah Goldberg's The Remnant, Charlie Sykes' The Bulwark Podcast, and The New York Times' Ezra Klein Show.   Prior to joining Reason, Slade worked as a speechwriter and pollster. She's a proud graduate of the University of Florida, where she studied economics and political science. Follow her on X: @sladesr.  

Does the fractious stupidity of our politics, the rapid advancement of AI, and the release of the final season of Stranger Things portend making America great again or the coming apocalypse? Join our panelists for a (definitive, obviously) glimpse into what's in store for us all in 2026. Panelists include: Brooke Medina - VP of Comms with the State Policy Network Avi Woolf - Host of Avi's Conversational Corner Ryan Rogers - Host of Reality Therapy Shawn Whatley - Host of Concepts with Shawn Whatley

Jonah Goldberg makes his triumphal return to Saving Elephants where host Josh Lewis peppers him with unyielding questions on what his fourth and forthcoming book will be about, the practicality of setting lottery winnings as a life-goal, what a post-Trump GOP might look like, whether it makes sense to even "save" the elephants, and whether we should welcome human enslavement to our future AI overlords.   Remnant fans, have your bingo cards at the ready!   About Jonah Goldberg From The Dispatch   Jonah Goldberg is editor-in-chief and co-founder of The Dispatch, based in Washington, D.C. Prior to that, enormous lizards roamed the Earth. More immediately prior to that, Jonah spent two decades at National Review, where he was a senior editor, among other things. He is also a bestselling author, longtime columnist for the Los Angeles Times, commentator for CNN, and a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. When he is not writing the G-File or hosting The Remnant podcast, he finds real joy in family time, attending to his dogs and cat, and blaming Steve Hayes for various things.  

In 2019 Caylan Ford resigned her political candidacy in Canada after controversy over allegations of her echoing white nationalist rhetoric.  In spite of her resignation—and continual insistence she held no such views—the mobs of cancel culture demanded "justice".  She was blacklisted from employers, unable to continue work with organizations that seek to liberate people living under the yoke of totalitarianism, ostracized by friends and colleagues, attacked and trolled online, and shunned by her community.   Caylan joins Saving Elephants host Josh Lewis to share her firsthand experience with cancel culture, including her insights on how to keep one's soul intact even as you are grievously wronged and competing notions of "justice".  Be forewarned, this conversation gets DEEP!   About Caylan Ford From caylanford.com I am a documentary filmmaker, writer, researcher, charter school founder, and a former political candidate. I'm interested in the problem of political and philosophical evil, and most of my work is animated by a desire to help people recover their roots in reality and their orientation toward the divine.   I was born in Calgary, Canada, and earned a Bachelor's degree (Hons.) in Chinese history at the University of Calgary. From there I obtained a Master's degree in International Affairs from the George Washington University, and worked on and off as a senior policy advisor for Canada's foreign ministry for about ten years. Between the birth of my two children I earned another Master's in International Human Rights Law at the University of Oxford. If ever I can afford a life of leisure, I hope to return and do a real degree studying comparative eschatology.   A very large part of my life has been spent working, volunteering and consulting in the international human rights field, including by increasing access to anti-surveillance and censorship tools in Iran, China, Myanmar, and elsewhere; working with civil rights lawyers representing political dissidents; supporting refugee and asylum claimants; and conducting and publishing original research on the repression of religious minorities in China (I've also published on this topic for more popular audiences). It's a country that I love, but only in the abstract; I was blacklisted at 16 and cannot obtain a visa. I've also written and co-produced two feature documentary films on the themes of religious and political persecution, censorship, forced labour, scapegoating, and mass persuasion under totalitarian regimes.   A few of these topics recur in my most recent documentary, which focuses on my experience of 'cancel culture' following a catastrophic bid for political office in 2019 (read my contemporaneous account of events here). Relatedly, I'm the plaintiff in an ongoing $7 million defamation claim against several Canadian media and political institutions, and my case has so far resulted in the recognition of a new tort of civil harassment in Alberta. You can read about or support my litigation efforts by clicking here.   In 2022 I founded Canada's first tuition-free classical charter school network, Alberta Classical Academy. Having drawn more capable people to the project than myself, we now have three campuses, including one in Edmonton. This is a short video introduction to our work and how we aim to promote knowledge of things that are true, good, and enduring.   Sometimes I also write and speak about arts and culture, biopolitics, education, family and childcare policy, post-liberalism, and whatever else seems interesting. But mostly I prefer to spend time reading or meditating in silent contemplation of the Dao.  

William F Buckley was one of the most important figures in the conservative movement over the past century. His posthumous 100th birthday is Monday, November 24. Come celebrate the life and legacy of Buckley as our Saving Elephant panelists pay tribute to a conservative life well lived. Panelists include: Eric Kohn - CEO of America's Future Michael Lucchese - Founder and CEO of Pipe Creek Consulting Cal Davenport - Podcaster, professor, ect.