#82 - Deloitte Prices for Outcomes. Law Firms Will Too.

Mary O'Carroll welcomes Ben Campbell (General Counsel, Deloitte) to unpack how law firms can—and must—learn from consulting and advisory firms. With a career that spans the DOJ, BigLaw, and now a top in‑house role, Ben offers a unique vantage on how governance, compensation, pricing and talent models are evolving. In this episode: Outcome‑based billing: Ben walks through how outcome‑based (versus hourly) billing shifts incentives, aligns with the client, and drives efficiency. Governance at scale: At Deloitte, the partnership model combines with a layered board/CEO structure—getting buy‑in from hundreds of partners and deploying resources across businesses. Talent & career flexibility: Moving beyond "lockstep" life‑path models, Ben discusses how allowing flexible progression and acknowledging different career goals helps retain and grow talent. AI & disruption: The "pyramid" leverage model (many junior + a few senior) is under pressure. Routine tasks will be automated; strategic judgment will remain the premium play. What law firms can borrow now: From shared back‑offices and staffing flexibility to outcome‑pricing and more dynamic governance—Ben makes the case for law firms to evolve before "behind" becomes the new norm. If you're wondering how the next chapter of legal and professional services might look, this conversation is a must‑listen—smart, candid and forward‑leaning. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts  

When many law‑ and consulting‑firms ask "Which AI tool do we buy?" they're missing the bigger shift: the very business model is changing. In this episode, Mary sits down with David Duncan and Tyler Anderson—two long‑time service‑firm innovators—to explore how AI is not just a new tool, but a structural force reshaping professional services: staffing models, pricing, talent, and even the nature of expertise. In this episode: The pyramid unravels: We revisit the traditional "analyst → manager → partner" model and why AI is eroding the base layers. From pyramid to obelisk: David and Tyler explain why the future staffing architecture looks more like a narrow obelisk than a wide pyramid. AI‑native vs. retrofit: Are you building your firm around AI or simply bolting AI on? The difference is profound. Pricing and incentives under pressure: If AI reduces hours and increases speed, how do firms preserve value and avoid racing toward the billable‑hour death spiral? Talent, apprenticeship & judgement: With junior work being automated, how will younger professionals develop deep judgment? What happens to the craft of the profession? Incumbents vs. attackers: Why nimble AI‑first boutiques may have the attacker's advantage, and what legacy firms must do to remain relevant. Opportunity vs. risk mindset: David closes with a powerful framing—see AI not as a threat to be managed but as an opportunity to be seized. If you're in legal or professional services and wrestling with how AI fits into your firm's model—not just your tech stack—this is a must‑listen. Explore Goodwin's Strategies for Winning Deals series to gain a competitive edge in closing  your next deal: https://bit.ly/4oCDVGn Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts  

In this episode of Pearls On, Gloves Off, Mary O'Carroll sits down with John LaBarre, General Counsel of Harvey. From Google to Snowflake and now a leader in legal AI, John's career reflects the tech world's evolution. Together, they dig into the pivotal moment we're living through — when generative AI enters the legal profession not as a futuristic idea but as a productivity‑enhancer in real time. In this episode: Why legal is ripe for AI: He explains how the legal profession acts as a "low‑hanging fruit" for generative AI, given its massive volumes of unstructured data and repetitive tasks. Re‑learning technology: Generative AI isn't like a perfect calculator. John argues lawyers must shift from expecting "the correct answer" to co‑working with predictive tools: prompting them, reviewing them, validating them. Measuring ROI: From the in‑house perspective, it's about doing more with the same budget. John shares examples where what used to be a 30–40 hour review became a 2–3 hour job thanks to AI. Law firms, adoption & the billable hour paradox: The conversation pivots to law firms — how they adopt AI, the challenges of traditional measurement (billable hours), and why this moment might represent another nail in that coffin. What's next: They explore the next three‑to‑five‑year horizon — what would make AI truly transformative, what still needs to happen, and why "agents" handling NDAs or contract workflows aren't far off. If you're involved in legal operations, in‑house counsel, or law firm innovation, this episode offers actionable insight into how legal work is changing—and what you should be doing right now to keep up. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts  

In this episode, Mary O'Carroll sits down with Rachel St. Peter, General Counsel at Nestlé Health Sciences US, to unpack a bold career move: stepping into legal ops mid-career to grow beyond the "good lawyer" baseline. From leading global transformation out of Switzerland to reshaping her executive presence and business fluency, Rachel explains how ops experience changed her leadership—and her trajectory. They also dig into the future of in-house legal: AI realities, law firm pricing shakeups, and what the next generation of GCs must bring to the table. In this episode: Why being a great lawyer isn't enough—and what Rachel did about it How a legal ops role built her executive presence and changed her leadership style What she's doing differently as GC—from tech tips in team meetings to smarter firm scoping The shift from client-service thinking to true cross-functional business partnership How law firm billing must evolve alongside AI adoption—and what real transparency looks like Advice for anyone considering a strategic detour: when to take the lateral move and why If you're thinking about how to future-proof your legal career—or how to lead with more impact—this episode will challenge the way you think about roles, risk, and reinvention. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts  

In this episode of Pearls On, Gloves Off, Mary sits down with Jacqueline Lee, Senior Vice President and General Counsel at Flynn Group, to unpack what it takes to lead legal, compliance, and risk functions at scale. Flynn is the parent company behind brands like Panera, Taco Bell, Wendy's, Planet Fitness, and more, with 75,000+ employees across the U.S., Australia, and New Zealand. Jacqueline shares her journey from big law to being unexpectedly tapped for a GC role just a year into her in-house life. Along the way, she reveals what's really changed (and what hasn't) in that transition — especially around how legal advice must shift to be more strategic, practical, and business-aligned. In this conversation, you'll learn: How to translate your legal skills for non-lawyer clients. Jacqueline stresses the importance of tailoring advice to how business leaders think and act — not how lawyers talk. Why "perfect information" is a myth in-house. You'll hear how GCs must balance risk, ambiguity, and the need to move fast. How to lead through crisis and uncertainty. Jacqueline's leadership during the pandemic reveals lessons in transparency, empathy, and restoring a feeling of control. How to demonstrate real value to the business. She explains her shift from narrative legal reports to visual dashboards, metrics tied to core business KPIs, and proactive reporting. The case for in-house litigation. Flynn handles much of its litigation internally; Jacqueline explains how they pick which matters to pursue internally vs. outsource — and why she still loves law. How to recruit, grow, and scale a legal team. We dig into her hiring philosophy, aligning on values, and the challenges of hybrid teams. Pricing and partnership with outside counsel. Jacqueline critiques the inefficiencies of hourly billing and shares how value-based arrangements can align incentives and build trust. If you're an aspirational in-house counsel or a legal leader grappling with how to prove impact, this episode is packed with insights you can start applying now. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts  

Eddie Hartman has been disrupting legal long before it was fashionable. As Co-Founder of LegalZoom and now a Partner & Board Member at Simon-Kucher, he's worked with everyone from startups to AM Law 100 firms on pricing, innovation, and tech strategy.  In this episode, Mary sits down with Eddie to talk about the legal industry's industry's uneasy relationship with change. From AI hype to the stubborn grip of the billable hour, they unpack why so many "innovations" fail, what clients actually mean when they ask about tech, and how law firms can evolve without losing their identity. In this episode: LegalZoom's Early Lessons: Why paralegals—not lawyers—were the first adopters, and what that reveals about confidence, adoption, and who really drives change. AI's False Start: The real reason 95% of AI initiatives fail—and why law firms may never fully embrace the efficiency it offers. Innovation vs Incentives: How law firms unintentionally kneecap their own innovation efforts—and what spinning off "tech incubators" says about the business model. What Pricing Really Signals: Why clients don't necessarily want cheaper—they want predictable, credible, and justified. And how fees send louder messages than firms realize. The Human Roadblock: From cultural protectionism to career incentives, why most resistance to change isn't technological—it's personal. If you're tired of the hype cycle and looking for a sharp, grounded view of where legal innovation actually stands, this conversation delivers. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts  

When it comes to business development in professional services, Matt Dixon has spent decades decoding what actually works—and what doesn't. As a bestselling author and Founding Partner at DCM Insights, he's reshaped how companies think about sales. Now, with his new book The Activator Advantage, Matt turns his focus to the world of law, consulting, and other relationship-driven fields, where selling is often taboo—but still essential. In this episode, Mary sits down with Matt to unpack what top-performing partners do differently—and why it has nothing to do with cocktail parties or golf outings. Based on a global study of 3,500 partners, his research reveals a powerful new playbook for growing client relationships that's grounded in thoughtfulness, generosity, and strategic action. In this episode: The Five Partner Personas: From the Expert to the Confidant to the Activator, why most partners fall into outdated models—and what separates top performers. Why "Sales" Is a Dirty Word: Matt shares his story of getting cut off mid-presentation by a managing partner—and what it taught him about the legal mindset. What Clients Really Want: A direct line from clients themselves—what they wish partners would do more often, and why "waiting for the phone to ring" doesn't cut it anymore. The Power of Proactive Help: Why offering value before the invoice makes Activators so successful—and how it builds lasting loyalty. It's Not About Personality: Whether you're introverted or hate networking, this isn't about becoming someone else—it's about small shifts that make a big difference. The Role of the Firm: How BD and marketing teams can become activator enablers—and why leadership buy-in is key to scaling the model. If you've ever felt allergic to the idea of selling—or struggled to connect with clients beyond the brief—this episode offers a fresh, practical, and inspiring blueprint for doing BD differently. Get exclusive legal insights on healthcare's latest – only with Goodwin at HLTH. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

When it comes to legal innovation, Jim Delkousis doesn't just have a front-row seat—he's one of the architects of change. As Founder and CEO of PERSUIT, Jim has spent almost a decade transforming how legal departments buy outside counsel services. With billions in legal work processed through the platform, he offers a rare, data-rich perspective on the shift from opaque hourly billing to value-driven, transparent legal spend. In this episode, Mary reconnects with Jim for a wide-ranging and insightful conversation about what's changing in legal procurement, why, and what it means for firms and clients alike. In this episode: The Death of the Billable Hour? How AI and data are eroding time as the currency of legal value—and what might replace it. The Power of Price Transparency: Why over 80% of matters on PERSUIT now use alternative fee arrangements, and what that says about the future of legal pricing. Reverse Auctions, Explained: The most controversial feature in PERSUIT—and why it's not necessarily a race to the bottom. When the Lowest Bid Doesn't Win: Jim shares the data behind client decision-making A GC's New Mandate: From cost center to value driver, what legal leaders need to prove to their CEOs—and how tech is helping them do it. If you've ever questioned the logic of hourly billing—or wondered how to move beyond it—this episode will challenge your assumptions and offer a roadmap forward. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

When you think of legal ops at a global company like Heineken, you might not picture a former sports broadcaster leading the charge. But that's exactly Sean Houston's path—and it's given him a unique edge. In this episode, Mary sits down with Sean, Heineken's Head of Legal Operations, to unpack how he built the function from scratch. From vendor-side lessons to internal change management, Sean shares sharp, actionable insights on making legal ops work in a complex, global environment. In this episode: Unlikely Origins: How Sean went from a mic in hand as a sports broadcaster to a key voice in legal transformation. When to Say No: Learning the hard way how to push back and prioritize when everything feels like a good idea. From Vendor to Buyer: Why experience on the vendor side gives you X-ray vision into what makes tech rollouts succeed—or stall. AI Reality Check: No hype, just practical: How Sean is introducing AI across the team through Copilot and internal bots, focusing on comfort and adoption over flash. Europe Rising: Why legal ops in Europe is no longer in catch-up mode—and how it's finding its own rhythm. Hiring Smart: Why the best legal ops talent might come from inside your own company—and what Sean looks for when building his team. If you're scaling legal ops, wrestling with tech priorities, or just curious how to make meaningful change in a global org, this episode is packed with insight. Sean brings clarity, candor, and a practical mindset to the big questions shaping the future of legal. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

In this episode, Mary sits down with futurist and bestselling author Mike Walsh to explore what happens when a tradition-bound industry like law collides with generative AI. Walsh, CEO of Tomorrow and author of The Algorithmic Leader, has advised the world's biggest companies on digital transformation—and he believes legal is facing a moment of radical reinvention. Together, they pull no punches on what the next decade will bring, why legal might be the most vulnerable industry of all, and how leaders can stop dabbling in AI and start building the future. In this episode: The Law of (AI) Acceleration: Why COVID-19 was just the warm-up, and how AI is catalyzing changes that would've taken another decade to materialize. The End of the Billable Hour? Walsh and Mary go deep on how AI threatens professional services' most sacred cow—and what firms must do to stay profitable. The Risk of Inaction: Playing it safe is no longer the safe move. Legal leaders who cling to the past may be making the riskiest bet of all. The Fifth Industrial Revolution: AI isn't just another tech tool—it's the next electricity. What that means for organizations, talent, and operating models. Smart, Lazy People Wanted: Why the most valuable hires today are the ones who automate themselves out of a job. Legal as a Living System: A bold new vision for in-house teams—dynamic, embedded, and redefining how companies manage risk in real-time. If you're wondering what it really means to future-proof a legal org—or whether that concept is a myth to begin with—this episode will give you a front-row seat to the disruption already underway. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts