9. Is AI Illegal?

Every AI music generator was built on other people’s songs, nearly all of them, taken without asking and without paying. The AI companies say that’s fair use, the same rule that lets a critic quote a book. Musicians say it’s theft. The answer is worth billions. Last year the U.S. Copyright Office weighed in, and the next day the head of the office was fired.So is it legal? To try and get some answers, I talk to TWO former general counsels of the Copyright Office. They're now on opposite sides of the fight.Light Box is made completely independently, with no production budget. Right now our network, Radiotopia, is holding its fall fundraiser -- and the money gets split among every show in it, including this one. A small donation goes a long way: https://bit.ly/4ziD4QTFor more info go to www.LightBoxPodcast.com. Email us: [email protected] Box is reported, written, edited and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our booking producer is Drew Thurlow.People in this Episode: Jacqueline Charlesworth, “Generative AI’s Illusory Case for Fair Use” Daniel Gervais, a memo on collective licensing for AI Sy Damle Mitch Glazier Songs in this Episode: Michael Bolton vs. the Isley Brothers, “Love Is a Wonderful Thing” George Harrison’s “My Sweet Lord” vs. the Chiffons’ “He’s So Fine” 2 Live Crew vs. Roy Orbison, “Pretty Woman” Additional Reading:  The Copyright Office’s report on AI training (May 2025) Chokepoint Capitalism by Rebecca Giblin and Cory Doctorow Light Box is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.

I found recordings online of the Beatles in 1969, goofing around at rehearsal and drifting in and out of their old songs. They totally sounded like they could be the real “Nagra Tapes” from the Get Back sessions. But... these recordings never happened. They were made with AI. I had to find the guy who made them.Using AI on the Beatles’ voices might be the most offensive thing you could do to the band. The people doing it are their biggest fans.Write us: [email protected] this episode: Pannick's channel  Bowman’s channel, BowmanIII  Dae Lims' channel, including his Smile The real Nagra Tapes. Peter Jackson’s The Beatles: Get Back (Disney+, 2021) The Beatles, “Real Love”: the original from Anthology 2 (1996) and the new 2025 mix on Anthology 4 The Beach Boys, The Smile Sessions (Capitol, 2011), the official collection of the unfinished album More on Udio and what happened to it: Episode 6 of Light Box, “Udio: A Post-Mortem” Light Box is reported, written, edited, and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and our assistant editor is Ryan Seaton. Light Box is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.

AI music is supposed to be what ends musicians’ careers. For James Hinton, aka The Range, it might be what saves his. For a decade, he made his music out of strangers’ voices on YouTube, until he couldn’t anymore.On paper, this is an episode about the past, present and future of sampling. But really, it’s about loss (and friendship).Write us: [email protected] this episode: The Range, Potential (Domino, 2016), including “Copper Wire” and Mercury (Domino, 2022), including “Ricercar” Zak's original YouTube Video -- sampled in "Copper Wire" "Left on Red" - James' first AI-sampled track  Informal Proofs - James' NYC-based discussion group for artists, engineers, and researchers Producer Om'Mas Keith  Light Box is reported, written, edited, and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and our assistant editor is Ryan Seaton. Light Box is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.

For a lot of people, Udio was the AI music app where they finally got to make the songs they’d been hearing in their heads for years. Then one night last fall, Udio settled its lawsuit with Universal Music Group. Downloads were switched off, and the new fine print said the songs users had made weren’t theirs anymore.After talking to Udio users all over the world, Mark realized this story wasn’t just about Udio. What happened to them could happen to any of us.Write us: [email protected] this episode: Many Udio users from around the world. Cherie Hu of Water & Music. Read her scoop on Starstruck -- what Udio is turning into. And subscribe to her newsletter. Light Box is reported, written, edited, and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and our assistant editor is Ryan Seaton. Editorial assistance on this episode from Zack Phillips. Light Box is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.

A year ago, I was driving my daughter home from preschool when Spotify autoplayed a song that cut out mid-note. It was AI, and whoever made it hadn't bothered to fix the ending. So I tracked down the 19-year-old behind it. That was just the start of a trip down the rabbit hole. It turns out there's a lot of slop out there. Is it going to ruin everything? Or am I looking at it all wrong?Write us: [email protected] this episode Cherie Hu, founder of Water & Music Kristin Robinson, Billboard reporter and host of Billboard On the Record  Romain Hennequin, head of research at Deezer Kate Knibbs, senior writer at WIRED Caitlin Canty, musician, and one half of Down Like Silver  Tracy Chan, CEO of Splash Light Box is reported, written, and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our Producer is Drew Thurlow & our Assistant editor is Ryan Seaton. Light Box is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.

Marc Ribot has played guitar for Tom Waits, Elvis Costello, Norah Jones, Robert Plant, and about a thousand other people. He's also one of the most outspoken critics of AI music. He calls Suno and Udio plagiarism machines. And for him, the whole thing comes down to consent: nobody asked the musicians.I caught him on the phone somewhere between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, driving to a gig. Of all the conversations I've had about AI music, his might be the one I keep coming back to the most.Sign Marc's "We Need a Union" petition. Music in this episode:Marc Ribot, Map of a Blue City Marc Ribot, Saints Marc Ribot y Los Cubanos Postizos Also mentioned: Liz Pelly, Mood MachineFor more info go to www.LightBoxPodcast.com Email us! [email protected] Box is reported, written, edited and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and assistant editor is Ryan Seaton.We make this show completely independently, so PLEASE support us by sharing the show with a few friends. Light Box is a proud member of the Radiotopia network from PRX.

A producer with 13 billion streams posts on Reddit about how much he loves making music with AI and... gets banned. We have the conversation that wasn't allowed there. In Part II of our hitmaking story, Mickey Shiloh and David Phelan say the quiet parts out loud: everyone's using it, nobody's admitting it, and if it's happening anyway, you might as well get on the trolley. Also, Mark plays his own AI experiments for his old mentor Jad Abumrad (Radiolab, Dolly Parton's America), who does not react the way either of them expected. Along the way: a $3 million record deal for an "AI music designer," a hip-hop hit built on a soul singer who never existed, and the argument that if you steal from everyone, you've stolen from no one. For more info go to www.LightBoxPodcast.com. Email us! [email protected] Box is reported, written, edited and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and assistant editor is Ryan Seaton.We make this show completely independently so PLEASE support us by leaving a rating and review.Light Box is a proud member of the Radiotopia network from PRX.

There's already a #1 hit made with AI. You just don't know which one. In this episode, we go inside the world of professional songwriting camps -- where hits for the biggest artists are assembled by rooms of strangers. And we meet two hitmakers with billions of streams -- Mickey Shiloh (Janet Jackson, Britney Spears, Iggy Azalea) and David Phelan (ZAYN, Charli XCX, Jason Derulo) -- who are starting to use AI in their process. The question is... why? Why would successful songwriters need AI? The answer has as much to do with the songwriting industry as it does with AI. For more info go to www.LightBoxPodcast.com.Email us: [email protected] Box is reported, written, edited and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and assistant editor is Ryan Seaton. We make this show completely independently so PLEASE support us by leaving a rating and review. Light Box is a proud member of the Radiotopia network from PRX. 

Composer Mark Henry Phillips logs onto an AI music generator expecting slop. Instead... he has an existential crisis. What it made wasn't slop -- it was good. Really good. This plunges him into a year-and-a-half long rabbit hole. He discovers -- with help from Sonarworks' Helmuts Bēms -- that professional musicians are secretly adopting AI like performance-enhancing drugs. Mark also digs into how these tools actually work with AI researcher Maya Ackerman. And he confronts an uncomfortable question: if a machine can replicate your creative instincts, were they ever really yours to begin with?For more info go to www.LightBoxPodcast.com.Email us: [email protected] Box is reported, written, edited and produced by Mark Henry Phillips at Windhill Studios. Our producer is Drew Thurlow and assistant editor is Ryan Seaton. We make this show completely independently so PLEASE support us by leaving a rating and review. Light Box is a proud member of the Radiotopia network from PRX. 

A sneak peek at what's coming this season on Light Box, the new show from PRX's Radiotopia. Launching September 15.Host and creator Mark Henry Phillips is a professional composer who accidentally opened Pandora's box by experimenting with an AI music generator. In this teaser, he shows his wife what he's gotten himself into.The first two episodes drop next Tuesday (September 15) and then a new episode comes every week. Subscribe now!Questions / thoughts / comments — write us: [email protected]