Susan Page on the Legendary Broadcast Journalist and Television Personality Barbara Walters, Both Onscreen and Off

We have come to our season 11 finale, unbelievably, and to mark the occasion we have the fantastic, dynamic Sunny Hostin here to talk about her latest book, the third novel in her New York Times bestselling Summer Beach series, Summer on Highland Beach, which is out May 28. The best fiction, to me, not only takes me away, but teaches me something—and Summer on Highland Beach did just that. Highland Beach along the Chesapeake Bay is the oldest Black resort community in America and was founded in the late 1800s by the son of Frederick Douglass. It is a secluded beach community of about 100 private homes, and that’s where Sunny’s latest novel takes us to. As has become a trademark of her Summer Beach series, this book celebrates family, friendship, and community, and reminds us both of the importance of the legacies of our collective past but also about finding one’s way in the world in the present. Olivia Jones is the star of the show in this book, and her story continues to be told by Sunny, who is a three-time Emmy Award winner and a co-host of ABC’s popular The View. She is also an attorney and the Senior Legal Correspondent and Analyst for ABC News and the author, of course, of the other two books in the Summer Beach series: Summer on the Bluffs and Summer on Sag Harbor, both of which I inhaled, as well as Summer on Highland Beach. She is also the author of her memoir, I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds. I wasn’t aware of an HBBC—or a Historically Black Beach Community—until I read Sunny’s Summer Beach series. These communities have flown pretty under the radar until Sunny brought them to life through this trilogy, and this series absolutely uses place and setting as a character, which listeners, you know I love. Summer on Highland Beach closes the Summer Beach series, and I can’t wait for you to hear what Sunny has to say—I found her to be an absolute joy to be with.   All by Sunny Hostin: Summer on Highland Beach Summer on the Bluffs Summer on Sag Harbor I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds

One of the most important books written in the last few years is Dr. Katy Milkman’s 2021 book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, which focuses on the study of behavior change. This is a groundbreaking book in which Dr. Milkman reveals a proven path that can take you from where you are right now to where you want to be and teaches us that change happens most readily when you understand what’s standing between you and success and tailor your solution to that specific roadblock. Dr. Milkman is a behavioral scientist and professor at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and this book draws on her original research and the work of her world-renowned scientific collaborators. (The foreword to the book, by the way, was written by another of my favorites, psychologist Dr. Angela Duckworth, author of the fantastic book Grit.) How to Change shares strategic methods for identifying and overcoming common barriers to change, like impulsivity, procrastination, and forgetfulness, and gives us practical tips and tactics backed by science to help us achieve our goals, once and for all. Dr. Milkman has worked with numerous organizations on how to achieve positive change, including Google, the U.S. Department of Defense, Walmart, the White House, and the American Red Cross. Her research is regularly featured by media outlets like The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and NPR, and she currently co-directs the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at Penn as well as hosts the podcast Choiceology, a popular Charles Schwab show about behavioral economics. Speaking of The New York Times, How to Change was not only a bestseller but also named one of the eight best books for healthy living in 2021 by that outlet. Dr. Milkman is a Princeton and Harvard graduate and, as you’ll hear us talk about, wrote a book that truly changed my life, personally. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.   How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by Dr. Katy Milkman

When it comes to people I am most compelled by, living or dead, right there at the top of the list is Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy. And, actually, one of the parts of Carolyn I am the least compelled by is who she married, even though, trust me, I love John F. Kennedy Jr. separately, all on his own. But, while she became one-half of one of the most famous couples in the world in the 1990s, it’s Carolyn herself that I’m interested in. Carolyn was such a mystery and an enigma during her all too short life; she was elusive, stylish, elegant, graceful, glamorous, and, before Elizabeth Beller’s new book Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, which is out today, May 21, largely unknown. The unrelenting media portrayed Carolyn as an ice queen, a snob—but, as you’ll hear Elizabeth explain today in our conversation, she was anything but. In fact, a word Elizabeth closely associates with Carolyn is compassion—unfailing compassion. Like all of us, Carolyn was multi-layered, and the woman you’ll meet in this conversation and in Elizabeth’s book is, arguably, I think one we’d all like to know, and we’d all like to have as a friend. And her marriage is nowhere near the most fascinating part of her story. Carolyn died at just 33 years old; unbelievably, the 25th anniversary of her death is this upcoming July 16. Because of how private she was and because of a lack of information, Carolyn was incredibly misunderstood and, heretofore, I think we’ve really gotten her all wrong. But, according to those who knew her, she made people feel like they were the only person in the room. She had a timeless style that was minimalist, with a muted color palette—inspired, at least in part, because of her relationship with the paparazzi, which we get into today. Carolyn would be 58 years old today, and I’m so pleased to introduce you to her biographer, Elizabeth Beller. Elizabeth is a writer and journalist specializing in culture, art, and travel with more than 15 years under her belt as a book and story editor. Her work has appeared in Vogue, Travel + Leisure, and The Guardian, and prior to becoming a writer and editor, was a script reader for Miramax and worked for 12 years at Sotheby’s Auction House. In this book, Elizabeth really brings us a comprehensive look at a multifaceted woman who is, in the book’s own words, worthy of our attention regardless of her husband and untimely death.   Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy by Elizabeth Beller

Welcome to episode three of three in my royal fiction series, which we started with Katharine McGee, continued with Linda Keir, and are finishing with Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan, authors of both The Royal We and The Heir Affair. I would argue that The Royal We released in 2015—actually kickstarted this trend of royal fiction that continues and continues today. In this book—which is inspired by the love story of Prince William and Kate Middleton—we meet an American girl, Bex Porter, who meets a dreamy guy named Nick while at Oxford, and finds herself accidentally in love with, casually, the heir to the British throne. Interestingly, the American aspect was introduced by Heather and Jessica in 2015, before Prince Harry ever met Meghan Markle the next year, in 2016. In 2020, the follow up to The Royal We, The Heir Affair, was released, and in this book, we find (slight spoiler alert here) Bex adjusting to royal life, including a scandalous secret that turned her wedding to Nick into a nightmare, leaving them in self-imposed exile. Trying so hard to not give spoilers here. In this book we get to know the character of Freddie more, and—you know what, you just need to add these two books to your summer beach bag, and you just need to read the books. Because if I keep going, I’m going to give plot points away, and I don’t want to do that. I am so thrilled to have had the chance to chat with the dynamic Heather and Jessica, who, in addition to writing these two books, are the creators of the unparalleled celebrity fashion blog, Go Fug Yourself, and are known as such as The Fug Girls. In addition to The Royal We and The Heir Affair, they’ve also written two young adult novels, Spoiled and Messy, and have written everywhere from New York Magazine to Vanity Fair to Cosmopolitan, The New York Times, The Washington Post, W, Glamour, and more. One thing we actively and intentionally avoid in this conversation is the real-life happenings of the royal family—so if you’re looking for dish and juice on that, you’ll be disappointed—but you won’t be disappointed in this chat, which is fantastic. In this conversation, we prefer to stay in the fictional world of Bex and Nick and Freddie, and I think you’ll find that you’ll enjoy it there with us. These two women are phenomenal.   The Royal We by Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan The Heir Affair by Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan

One of my absolute new favorite people is Stephanie Harrison, author of the book New Happy: Getting Happiness Right in a World That’s Got It Wrong, which came out this past Tuesday, May 14. This book is being billed as “the definitive guide to happiness” and is packed full of a decade’s worth of research that leads us to a proven path of happiness. Who among us doesn’t want to be happier, and who among us hasn’t struggled with happiness? In this book, Stephanie—who has potentially the coolest job title in the world, happiness expert—walks us through the counterintuitive secrets to happiness and gives us a practical guide to help us all learn how to live a happy life. As Stephanie writes, we all want to be happy—but happiness always seems out of reach. Well, until now anyway. Stephanie draws on hundreds of studies to help us find happiness and makes it clear that it’s not our fault we’re unhappy. See, we’ve as a society been told three damaging lies: that we aren’t good enough, that we need to achieve wealth, fame, and power, and that we need to do it on our own. This is what Stephanie calls “Old Happy,” or our society’s false definition of happiness—and, as you may have noticed, it’s making us absolutely miserable. Now, it’s time for “New Happy,” which includes the truths that you are enough, you have unique and important gifts, and using them to help other people is what will lead to happiness. I also have to make mention here that, in addition to the obviously very powerful words included within, the book is just full of this artwork that is extraordinary, too, that helps explain the concepts. We learn in the book how to unwind “Old Happy,” and firmly step into “New Happy.” Basically, if you’ve ever asked the questions “Who am I, really?” or “When will I be happy?” or “What am I supposed to do with my life?”—this book is for you (so, yeah, everyone). In addition to being a happiness expert, Stephanie is a writer, designer, and speaker, complete with a master’s degree in positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. She’s devoted her life to the study of well-being—truly, what a noble pursuit—and her company, The New Happy (which Stephanie founded in 2018) has revolutionized the way people understand and pursue happiness. In addition to this new book, there’s a podcast, a newsletter, videos, and so many resources that reach millions around the world each month, a science-backed philosophy of happiness. Her happiness expertise has been featured everywhere from CNBC to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, and Architectural Digest, and she is a regular speaker at Fortune 500 companies. Before taking on this happiness work full steam, she was the director of learning at Thrive Global. Speaking of learning, I look forward to you doing just that with Stephanie in this episode. New Happy: Getting Happiness Right in a World That’s Got It Wrong by Stephanie Harrison

There is no novel better than a Plum Sykes novel, and I have mentioned on the show what a fan I am of Plum’s work—and of Plum, period, end of story. I have another special fiction pick for you listeners as we’re starting to plan summer beach trips and pool days—Plum’s latest, Wives Like Us, is an absolute must for your summer TBR. It comes out today, May 14, and I tore through it and wanted more of Ian the butler (you’ll hear Plum and I talk about him plenty on the show today). Truly, Plum is one of the ultimate icons of fiction to me. Let’s talk about Wives Like Us before we get into getting to know a bit about Plum herself: this book takes us to the Cotswolds, specifically “The Bottoms,” and introduces us to the luxe life there, specifically the life and the concept of “the Country Princess,” which Plum explains in our chat today. Plum lives in the English countryside, so it’s a world she knows well. The signature of Plum’s novels is that they’re so juicy and dishy and high society-focused—upper crust and rich and glamorous. This is her fourth novel, following Bergdorf Blondes, The Debutante Divorcee, and Party Girls Die in Pearls, which came out in 2016, if I’m not mistaken, so it’s been a moment since I’ve gotten my Plum Sykes novel fix. Let me tell you about her, without further ado. First of all, Plum and her twin sister, Lucy, were the “It Girls” in New York City high society, Plum working at Vogue under Anna Wintour and Lucy at Marie Claire, where, actually, I now work. Plum is a fashion journalist, novelist, and socialite and was born in London and educated at Oxford, and remains a contributing editor at Vogue, where she writes about society, fashion, and Hollywood. She has also written for Vanity Fair. I’m a fan of Plum’s writing and just Plum as a person, and there’s no question that you, too, will fall in love with her after listening to our conversation.   Wives Like Us by Plum Sykes

First things first: today’s episode is fantastic, but deals with some really heavy, difficult subject matter. Please be advised, and please take care of yourself and listen as you’re able. On January 28, 1986, the Space Shuttle Challenger broke apart 73 seconds into flight above the Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Cape Canaveral, Florida at 11:39 a.m., killing all seven crew members aboard. This marked the first fatal accident involving an American spacecraft while in flight. Not only were the families of all seven crew members watching, but so was the country and the world—the launch was broadcast live, and children across the country in particular were watching thanks to schoolteacher Christa McAuliffe being sent into space that day as a part of the Teacher In Space program. Because of this, media interest was higher than normal, and many children watched in horror as the spacecraft exploded, not understanding, and traumatized. I want to honor those seven lives lost by naming them here: F. Richard Scobee, commander; Michael J. Smith, pilot; Ronald McNair, mission specialist; Ellison Onizuka, mission specialist; Judith Resnik, mission specialist; Gregory Jarvis, payload specialist; and Christa McAuliffe, payload specialist and teacher. This crew was scheduled to deploy a communications satellite and study Halley’s Comet, but never got the chance; the cause of the explosion was determined to be the failure of the primary and secondary redundant O-ring seals in a joint in the shuttle’s right solid rocket booster—our guest on the show today, Adam Higginbotham, will explain that to us. The record-low temperatures on that January morning of the launch had stiffened the rubber O-rings, reducing their ability to seal the joints. After a three-month search-and recovery operation, the crew compartment, human remains, and many other fragments from the shuttle were recovered from the Atlantic Ocean floor. I talk about this with Adam today, but, while the exact timing of the deaths of the crewmembers is unknown, several crew members are thought to have survived the initial breakup of the Challenger. It is especially difficult, at least for me, to hear Adam talk about this. As a result of the Challenger disaster, NASA established the Office of Safety, Reliability, and Quality Assurance, as well as other changes focused on safety. In his book Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space, which comes out tomorrow, May 14, Adam Higginbotham tells the story of the Challenger but also the arc from 1967 and the Apollo 1 cabin fire to 2003 and the Columbia disaster, 17 years after the Challenger. This is one of the best books I’ve ever read—full stop. The full story of what happened with the Challenger and why has never been told, until Adam’s book. It is filled with extensive archival research and meticulous, original reporting about this turning point in history, which, as Adam puts it, “forever changed the way America thought of itself and its optimistic view of the future.” Adam is a journalist who is the former U.S. correspondent for The Sunday Telegraph and former editor-in-chief of The Face. He has also served as a contributing writer for The New York Times, The New Yorker, GQ, Smithsonian, and Wired and is also the author of Midnight in Chernobyl: The Untold Story of the World’s Greatest Nuclear Disaster, which came out in 2019. This is a truly harrowing and powerful conversation.   Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham

I was doing my scroll of all of my favorite magazine’s sites when I saw a headline on Vanity Fair that read “Elise Loehnen Would Like Mothers to Give Themselves a Break.” Now, look, I’m not even a mother, and even I get how much mothers giving themselves a break is necessary. I have so many friends that are moms, and even beyond mothers, just for women, in general, that pervasive guilt always seems to be so present—that we’re never doing enough, or, perhaps even more catastrophically, that we ourselves aren’t enough. That’s why I wanted to release today’s episode on the Friday before Mother’s Day specifically—Elise is my guest on the show today, and her message is one all mothers and all women need to hear, and her book, On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good, is one all mothers and all women need to read. This isn’t just a book—it’s a masterclass, a manifesto, a book of a generation. Truly. On Our Best Behavior has one of the best frameworks I’ve ever seen for a book, one that uses the Seven Deadly Sins—ancient ideas of morality that still control and distort women’s lives today—to reveal how these are rules we unwittingly follow in order to be considered “good,” and how we equate self-denial with being good. These unselfish, often distinctly feminine instincts are ingrained in us by a culture that reaps the benefits of it. The Seven Deadly Sins of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth have exerted insidious power and have done so since their adoption in the fourth century up to the present day. Elise’s book is at the same time very modern, tying everything to the present day, but also steeped in history—and, thankfully, it teaches us how to break free from the chains that bind us. The book is a New York Times bestseller and has been since its release in May 2023, a groundbreaking work that every woman and, really, every person needs to read. By the way, Elise taught me that the seven deadly sins were actually once eight sins. I really can’t tell you how much this book impacted me, and how excited I am for you to read this book and hear this conversation. Closing out this incredible week on the show, we have Elise Loehnen herself, who is not just the writer of On Our Best Behavior but is also the host of the podcast “Pulling the Thread” and the Substack newsletter of the same name. Elise went to Yale and, interestingly, was a national championship mathlete finalist, which I deeply appreciate made the cut of her bio. She was a deputy editor at Lucky magazine (which we’ve talked about on the show before, in our episode with Jean Godfrey June), was editorial projects director at Conde Nast Traveler, and was chief content officer of Goop—where she hosted the Goop podcast and the Goop Lab series on Netflix and oversaw Goop magazine. She actually left Goop in 2020 to focus on this book. This is actually not Elise’s first book, not by a long shot—she has worked as a ghostwriter on a ton of books in the areas of self-help, style, and business, and has worked with Ellen DeGeneres and Lea Michelle, for example. She’s co-written 12 books, and five of those were New York Times bestsellers, which is incredible. On Our Best Behavior is her first book written under her own name and not ghostwritten. Elise is a frequent contributor to Oprah and has written for The New York Times, Elle Décor, Stylist, and more. She is a wife and a mother of two sons, and they live in L.A. I can’t wait for you to meet her in this conversation. On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good by Elise Loehnen “Elise Loehnen Would Like Mothers to Give Themselves a Break” in Vanity Fair

Today on the show we’re talking about the legend that is Barbara Walters. We actually have another journalist I admire, Susan Page, who wrote The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters (which just came out on April 23), talking about a journalist I admire, so our cup runneth over with powerhouse female journalists. Barbara lived a long, full life, passing away on December 30, 2022, at 93 years old. In her lifetime, she became one of the most well-known and well-regarded broadcast journalists and television personalities, perhaps most famous for her genius level interviewing ability and for breaking barriers that once prevented women from being equal to men when it came to broadcast journalism. She was an Emmy winner and hosted numerous programs like Today, the ABC Evening News, 20/20, and she created The View, which Susan and I talk about on the show today. She was a working journalist from 1951 until her retirement in 2015 and was very deservedly inducted into the Television Hall of Fame in 1989; she even has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. In the early 1960s, Barbara was relegated to reporting on women’s interest stories on Today, but her popularity amongst viewers eventually catapulted to her becoming a co-host of the show in 1974, the first woman to hold such a role on an American news program. In 1976, she broke down more barriers when she became the first American female co-anchor of a network evening news program alongside Harry Reasoner on the ABC Evening News—which, um, did not go so well. Don’t worry, Susan and I talk about that, too. She became known for her annual Barbara Walters’ 10 Most Fascinating People, and during her career interviewed every sitting U.S. president and First Lady from the Nixons to the Obamas; she also interviewed both Donald Trump and Joe Biden, but not when either was president. Her interviews with subjects ranging from Fidel Castro to Monica Lewinsky and so many more gained her recognition as the best interviewer in the business, but who was Barbara Walters the person, not the personality? Well, Susan’s book lays it all out. We learn about Barbara’s marriages—she was married four times to three men—her daughter, other romantic relationships, and her childhood, especially her relationship with her father and her sister, and how those relationships shaped her into the woman she became. Today on the show to discuss it all is Susan Page, the Washington, D.C. bureau chief for USA Today. This is Susan’s third biography of a powerful woman: her first, about Barbara Bush, was released in 2019 and is called The Matriarch: Barbara Bush and the Making of an American Dynasty. She then released a biography about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power in 2021, and her third book is The Rulebreaker. Susan has covered seven White House administrations and 11 presidential elections and has interviewed 10 presidents, right up there with Barbara Walters. She also moderated the 2020 vice presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Mike Pence, founded and hosts a video newsmaker series for USA Today called “Capital Download,” and appears frequently as a panelist or an analyst on various news programs, including Meet the Press—and was even president of the White House Correspondents Association at one point. I can’t wait for you to hear our conversation.   The Rulebreaker: The Life and Times of Barbara Walters by Susan Page

When it comes to women I find totally compelling, Elizabeth Taylor tops the list for me. Why, you may ask? Well, her Academy Award-winning career and her talent onscreen, for starters. Her beauty, specifically her violet eyes. Her work with AIDS, and her White Diamonds perfume. And, yes, her lifestyle, specifically her eight marriages. But there’s only one man she married twice, and that love story, the love story between Elizabeth and Richard Burton, is what we’re talking about on the show today. Joining me today is Roger Lewis, the endlessly compelling author of Erotic Vagrancy: Everything About Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, which came out March 26. It took Roger 13 years to write this book, which clocks in at the juiciest 608 pages imaginable. It, in a word, is delicious. Elizabeth knew celebrity well, and by the time she met Richard on the set of Cleopatra in 1961, she had transitioned from a child star to a Hollywood icon. Meanwhile, we have Richard, who is a legend in the theater and a truly brilliant actor, nominated for seven Academy Awards, though he didn’t win any. He is much, much more averse to fame than his wife Elizabeth, who essentially helped define modern celebrity. Their two lives converge in Rome, and both are married to other people at the time; they can’t resist one another, and in come the private jets, the jewels, the yachts, the furs, and the vodka—so much vodka. Though Roger calls the two the loves of one another’s lives, it all goes wrong, with alcoholism, violence, recrimination, and two divorces. Richard is dead at just 58 in 1982; Elizabeth will live another 29 years before dying in 2011. Elizabeth and Richard were better known as “Liz and Dick” by the media, and ultimately starred in 11 films together and were married the first time from 1964 to 1974, and then remarried in 1975; their second marriage once again ended in divorce in 1976, just one year later. Together, in the 1960s the supercouple earned a combined $88 million. Their relationship has been referred to as the “marriage of the century,” and here to escort us on this rollercoaster ride is Roger Lewis, who, in addition to this masterpiece, also wrote The Life and Death of Peter Sellers, which was made into a Golden Globe and Emmy award-winning film by HBO starring Geoffrey Rush and Charlize Theron. I would expect some type of screen adaptation for Erotic Vagrancy, as well—just saying. He has also written a number of other biographies, including one on Laurence Olivier. Prepare through this conversation to be transported to the lavish, almost unbelievable world of Liz and Dick, and strap yourselves in, because it’s going to be a bumpy, wild ride.   Erotic Vagrancy: Everything About Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor by Roger Lewis