August 2025: Catherine Newman’s Sandwich

Description: Today’s episode is an absolute treat. Catherine Newman, the beloved author of both fiction and nonfiction writing, known for her sharp wit, emotional resonance, and profound insights into everyday life, sits down with Jen to talk about our August JHBC selection, Sandwich, which quickly gained national attention for its honest, tender, and hilarious reflection on real life in the messy middle years.  In this discussion that feels like a conversation between lifelong friends, Jen and Catherine delve into the unique challenges faced by the Sandwich Generation.  Catherine writes so beautifully about the ache of watching our kids become adults—still ours, but not really, meanwhile exploring what it looks like to engage in the caretaking and slow grief of watching our parents age. And with hilarious candor, she peels back the curtain of what it’s like to endure all of this in the throes of menopause.  It’s a book that feels like it crawled inside our minds, hearts, and lives.  Catherine also gives glimpses into how many of the characters and storylines were inspired by real life experiences, which is perhaps why it tugs so tenderly on our heartstrings and strikes such a raw and honest chord with its readers. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I became like a total writing-for-money whore. I couldn't believe you could write for money. It was so intoxicating to me and I started writing everything I could if they would pay me for it and I did this until last year. And it didn't really matter what they would pay me for it. And I wrote everybody's alumni magazines. I wrote advertorial copy for websites. I wrote the etiquette column for Real Simple Magazine for 10 years, like a billion different things. And here I am.”  – Catherine Newman “Talk about ‘sandwich’. I'm the filling that's slowly extracting itself. I'm like the bologna creeping out the back door while the sandwich takes care of itself. An incredible system.” – Catherine Newman “How did I not know this stuff? I thought menopause really was the cessation of your period. Like it was a train you got on when you were 12 and then you just stepped off of it when you were 50. Not that you stepped off this train and entered this hellscape.” – Catherine Newman “I stopped reading the Goodreads reviews for Sandwich — somebody did call the book ‘grinding and plotless’. It was a three-word review and I loved it so much, like this is the slow drip of shame and hubris for me…. I want that on my tombstone ‘grinding and plotless’, like ‘tell me about it, you only had to read about it, this is my actual life.’” – Catherine Newman To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: In this episode, we open the mic to our incredible podcast community, spotlighting the diverse feedback and personal stories from our listeners that have shaped our discussions. Hear firsthand accounts of the impact our guests and their insights have had. Listeners Melinda, Tracy, Joanna, Erin, Kelly, Laura, and Sarah share a wide range of experiences: navigating major life changes like empty-nesting, building new friendships, wrestling with evolving faith, and even becoming an unwilling country music convert. We also dive into some humorous reflections about Travis and TayTay, rest stop kittens, and open mic nights. Join us as we celebrate the voices that make our podcast a vibrant and dynamic space for conversation and connection. Tune in and be part of the dialogue. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Let the top rung of the ladder be your sincere convictions. That's the one to keep sturdy, clear, and visible, and hold that one as tight as you can.” – Jen Hatmaker “Anchor your feet into the ground and stand in this storm. Let it rage. Weather it, weather your own discomfort, weather everybody else's discomfort and whatever loss or change comes along with it, because it will end, and there will come a day when it is not that chaotic and what you will be left with is your integrity and that is enough.” – Jen Hatmaker “Women are capable of getting through the hardest things.  Maybe it’s a trope because it’s true. Maybe the women who are betrayed grieve and recover and rebuild because that's what women do. So maybe it's not such a surprise that we can flourish.” – Amy Hardin “I’m just convinced, this is the time for us to reinvent. Look how awesome we are.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce engagement post - https://www.instagram.com/p/DN02niAXMM-/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MTQ4YWwzOGcycWJlcA== [ENCORE] When the Truth Goes Viral: The Cost (and Benefit) of Living Honestly with Jonathan Merritt - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/encore-when-the-truth-goes-viral-the-cost-and-benefit-of-living-honestly-with-jonathan-merritt/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3VnMb0k The Interview: Jen Hatmaker’s Life Exploded in Middle Age. So She Built a Better One. – https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/23/magazine/jen-hatmaker-interview.html Shiny, Happy People - https://tv.apple.com/us/show/shiny-happy-people/umc.cmc.68y3j8gmhyj647n1j8hgscd3p No Filter, Just The Mirror: Trisha Yearwood Reflects On New Seasons and New Ambitions - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/no-filter-just-the-mirror-trisha-yearwood-reflects-on-new-seasons-and-new-ambitions/ Trisha Yearwood - The Mirror – https://trishayearwood.lnk.to/TheMirror Awake Book Tour with guest moderator Trisha Yearwood - Austin, TX - https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bookpeople-presents-jen-hatmaker-awake-tickets-1388635428949?aff=oddtdtcreator I Choose Me: Jennie Garth on Midlife, Reinvention & Owning Your Next Chapter - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/i-choose-me-jennie-garth-on-midlife-reinvention-owning-your-next-chapter/ Gretchen Rubin - https://gretchenrubin.com/ Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation | The U.S. Surgeon General’s Advisory on the  Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community, 2023 - https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today, Jen has a discussion with her longtime friend, brilliant thought-leader and activist, Austin Channing Brown. You probably know Austin from her viral first book, I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness, which flew off shelves in 2020 following the murder of George Floyd, as we were witnessing worldwide protests, calls for police reform, and a radical change to our racial justice systems. Countless people trusted Austin to help them unpack and understand the racial reckoning going on in our country at that time. Now, Austin is releasing a new project that shares some of her hard-fought learnings gained since that tumultuous time. Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession is a love letter to the black women, like Austin herself, who are exhausted from being everything to everyone but themselves. Across essays titled “I Love Myself When I Am Laughing,” “When I Am Awkward,” “When I Am Failing,” and more, Austin celebrates the fullness of her humanity. Each chapter becomes a mirror, asking women—especially Black women—to consider where they’ve given themselves away and what it would mean to live with self-possession instead. Highlights from this conversation include: What it means to Austin to be “full of herself”—a phrase she reclaimed as an act of resistance, dignity, and spiritual integrity What happens in our bodies when we operate out of alignment with ourselves What it means to be a Black woman striving to live fully in a world that often demands her silence, her labor, and her conformity And the inspirational, life-saving advice that Austin received from activist, Tarana Burke This is such a good conversation starter and one to be shared, for sure. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I'm sick of white people telling me I have to remain in unhealthy workplaces, unhealthy worship spaces, unhealthy towns in order to save them. Everywhere I go, I'm told I should sacrifice myself for the possibility of whiteness getting its shit together.” – Austin Channing Brown “I grew up in an era that we called racial reconciliation. ‘Racial justice’ was too hard. It implied that there were two people who had both done wrong and needed to come together. And the way that was often phrased for people of color was that we needed to teach, we needed to offer grace, we needed to bend over backwards, we needed to touch hearts and minds, endless patience, we needed to watch our tone, we needed to be open and inviting. It was all about what we needed to do.” – Austin Channing Brown “There is an integrity, accountability, and power that comes with being full of myself. And there is a lack of needing to please anybody else. Because I'm full of me.” – Austin Channing Brown Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession by Austin Channing Brown - https://amzn.to/4k0SQI1 I'm Still Here: Reese's Book Club: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Channing Brown - https://amzn.to/4jElqyn Nikki Giovanni, poet - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/nikki-giovanni  Zora Neale Hurston - https://www.zoranealehurston.com/ I Love Myself When I Am Laughing And Then Again When I Am Looking Mean & Impressive by Zora Neale Hurston - https://amzn.to/3FVpGvA Tarana Burke - https://www.taranaburke.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://austinchanning.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/austinchanning/ Twitter - https://x.com/austinchanning Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/austinchanningbrown Substack - https://substack.com/@austinchanning Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today’s conversation might have you clutching your pearls and purity rings. Jen and Amy sit down with Dr. Celeste Holbrook—sexologist, educator, and author of Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture—for the candid, hilarious, and healing “sex talk” you never had but always deserved. From busting purity culture myths to unpacking women’s complicated relationship with pleasure, Dr. Holbrook shares the four “inner missionaries” that shape our approach to sex, why sexual shame runs so deep, and how to reclaim intimacy as the joyful gift it was always meant to be. Highlights include:  Unpacking women' s complicated relationship with pleasure Dr. Holbrook prescribes the best sexy-time soundtrack Review of the four inner missionaries (the Analyst, the Assassin, the Healer, and the Explorer) – the archetypes that define our individual approach to sex  Celeste reveals a surprising fact that both golf carts and ejaculate have in common How the combination of purity culture, patriarchy and capitalism are the oppression cocktail for sex And the conversation veers off course when the trio discusses an exercise that uses Jason Mamoa to evaluate their sexual ethics Thought-provoking Quotes: “When I say sex education saved my relationship, I am not being bombastic. It really did help me find myself.” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook “We view sex through a patriarchal lens. Media tells us how to feel about sex and what is sexy. So what is sexy has been historically white, thin, able-bodied, young… And the way that we view ourselves then says, well, what if I'm not all of those things? Am I still sexy? Is my body still OK?” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook “The work for us, especially as women, is to anchor into our body to experience sensuality in order to experience sex instead of perform sex.” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook “We need to be inside the system in order to take down the system.” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jen Hatmake’s Sex MeCourse: SexEd For the Rest of Us - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/sex-101 Pantsuit Politics - https://www.instagram.com/pantsuitpolitics/ Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex after Purity Culture by Dr. Celeste Holbrook - https://amzn.to/46StjOa For the Love of Men by Liz Plank – https://amzn.to/41JtRSS  Say Yes to Pleasure: How to Talk About Sex and Rekindle Intimacy in Midlife with Vanessa Marin – https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/say-yes-to-pleasure-how-to-talk-about-sex-and-rekindle-intimacy-in-midlife-with-vanessa-marin/ A Tribe Called Quest – https://atribecalledquest.com/blogs/discography The Pleasure Club - https://www.drcelesteholbrook.com/https/thepleasureclub Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.drcelesteholbrook.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drcelesteholbrook/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DrCelesteHolbrook/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s time for another beloved encore presentation and this time we are bringing back this powerful podcast therapy session for your benefit and enjoyment.  Dr. Sara Kuburic, an existential psychotherapist and author behind The @Millennial.Therapist, offers profound insights into taking ownership of our lives. Dr. Kuburic champions the idea that we are free and responsible agents, shaping our own development through our choices. While it's easy to blame external forces for unhappiness, she encourages us to embrace the amazing opportunity to engage in life fully. She poses a crucial question: how much of what we face is inflicted by us, and how much just happens? As a therapist, she equips people with tools to navigate life’s challenges, asking: “what can you change or how can you change your attitude so the situation is less painful for you?” Beyond existential thought, Jen and Dr. Kuburic explore self-loss and how we can unknowingly deceive ourselves into believing we're living the life we desire, even as our bodies signal distress through depression, anxiety, and panic. Jen and Dr. Kuburic get honest about: The difference between loving the "idea" of who you are versus who you actually are, and how to stop self-deception. The point when avoiding change becomes more painful than embracing it. Acknowledging our physical limits: how our bodies send red flags like anxiety, fear, or panic, even when we feel strong. How an all-consuming dedication to making something work, even if it's not right for us, can lead to our weakest moments if we don't face the truth. Thought-provoking Quotes: “We get to engage in life; we can take ownership, we can take responsibility, we can make choices, and I think that that’s really how I see human suffering. My question is always, ‘how much of it happened to you? How much of it did you inflict on yourself?’” – Dr. Sara Kuburic “Life happens to us but that’s not all that happens. We also happen to life.” – Dr, Sara Kuburic “The most pain I experienced actually came from my own participation, which included avoidance and self-deceit. I am not hard on myself because it came from such a pure place. I can’t be mad at myself. But, I also understand that it’s not something that serves me.” – Dr. Sara Kuburic “The truth is there regardless of whether or not you choose to see it. It will dictate your life until you see it. So are you safe enough in yourself to handle the truth that you are resisting or avoiding? That’s a really delicate question that we need to honor.” – Dr.  Sara Kuburic Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Dr. Sara Kuburic’s “For the rest of 2025” Instagram post - https://www.instagram.com/p/C_WjH0mzF9z/ It’s On Me: Accept Hard Truths, Discover Yourself and Change Your Life by Dr. Sara Kuburic - https://amzn.to/3Uf40yf Dr. Sara Kuburic’s USA Today Column - https://www.usatoday.com/staff/7586635002/sara-kuburic/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.sara-kuburic.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/millennial.therapist/?hl=en Twitter - https://x.com/SaraKuburic Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sarakuburic/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:  In Part 2 of this episode, we push even deeper — into the personal, the creative, the brave, and the sometimes scary places we go when we dare to  tell the truth. This time, Tyler Merritt has turned the tables on Jen and he’s asking the questions!  We talk about what it’s like to be seen, judged, misunderstood — and still choose honesty. We talk about Awake and the vulnerability involved with retelling the painful and unvarnished parts of your story. We talk about fear. And we talk about the joy we’ve found in the middle of it all. So let’s jump back in. In this second installment: Jen talks about the last time that she felt truly brave and what it felt like to unearth and expose some of the most tender and personal moments of her life in such an honest and examining way Tyler asks Jen who was her best model of kindness at a young age Jen shares the song that is reflecting her current vibe in the world And Tyler asks Jen what she wishes more people understood about her Thought-provoking Quotes: "Our stories, though they may seem new, are the things that change the world." - Jen Hatmaker “What I asked myself when deciding to include or exclude something was, am I going to be proud of this five years from now? So that's five years further down the road. I'm going to be five years more mature, five years more healed, five more years of distance. Will I be proud of what I say five years from now? And I let that be my guide.” – Jen Hatmaker “It's been weird to be at that center of people's judgment for quite a long time now.  I've evolved a lot in the public eye, which is weird for everybody. It's weird for me. It's weird for people to watch. At all points along the way, I can say sincerely, I have really and truly been trying to do my best. I just wish people knew that.” – Jen Hatmaker “My story is not special and I think that's what makes it important. I hope that the readers will see their own story inside of it somewhere in some way on some level and then decide to take from mine what they need for theirs. So I can't wait to find out.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6 This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/ Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/ Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi Guest’s Links: Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/ Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recorded live from the Oregon coast on the final day of MeCamp, this special two-part conversation between Jen and her partner Tyler Merritt is the perfect blend of hilarity, heart, and honesty. In Part 1, Jen and Tyler share stories from their MeCamp adventures — including a whale-watching excursion that got a little too close for comfort, and a near-death boat ride they’ll never forget. They also reflect on the power of personal storytelling, how vulnerability has shown up in their lives and work, and why telling the truth (even when it’s awkward) can be both healing and hilarious. Discussing the impact of Tyler's viral video "Before You Call the Cops" to Jen's reflections on her upcoming book "Awake," this conversation reveals the transformative potential of embracing vulnerability. Tune in to discover how opening up about our most personal stories can not only heal us but also inspire others to see themselves in our narratives. Tyler talks about the most awkward moment he’s ever had because he opted to be vulnerable and honest instead of protecting his pride He and Jen discuss the hardest truths they’ve ever had to tell themselves And Tyler goes back into the annals to reveal his most embarrassing moment as a performer on stage Thought-provoking Quotes: “The spirit of MeCamp almost got us killed.”– Tyler Merritt “I'm aware that it's not every day that most people see a six foot two black man with dreadlocks crying in real life. I have never regretted a single moment in my life of being transparent about how I feel emotionally with somebody. Vulnerability has never kicked back at me in a negative way.”– Tyler Merritt “I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. Because I was saying who I am and I was allowing myself to be open to the world, the world was willing to take that. What it did within the black community is it allowed a lot of other black people to begin making their own videos going, before you call the cops, I just want you to know this about me. So it opened up a door of vulnerability that really allowed that to kind of echo.”– Tyler Merritt Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6 This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/ Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/ Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi Guest’s Links: Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/ Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris Whitaker didn’t come to writing the usual way. His path began with a series of harrowing experiences in young adulthood that left him searching for tools to process trauma and find peace. As a boy, he’d found comfort in libraries, and it was there he discovered a book on writing-as-therapy that encouraged him to fictionalize his pain and set stories in places of joy. Writing became a lifeline—and the foundation for the emotionally rich characters that define his work. Chris’ personal story deeply informs his bestselling novels, including We Begin at the End and our July JHBC selection, All the Colors of the Dark, resonating with readers worldwide through their authenticity and heart. Join us as we explore his remarkable journey—from pain to page—and the healing power of storytelling. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I didn't set out to write such a sprawling, massive book. I had a simple, top line pitch and then I began writing it and it evolved into like this just epic book.” – Chris Whitaker “I thought the book's probably not going to fit neatly into a genre because life never does, you know? There might be a crime in it, but it's the least interesting thing in the book. It's going to probably be a coming of age story, definitely a story of friendship, definitely a look at family and first love and, and pirates and beekeepers as well. Obviously.” – Chris Whitaker “I wanted everything to lead somewhere. Everything that you think is a throwaway in the story, every line that seems like it doesn't quite fit, it leads somewhere. The entire story is a network that is leading you towards the answer.” – Chris Whitaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jen’s post about reading All The Colors of the Dark while on a ski trip – http://bit.ly/4kVA5qt We Begin at the End by Chris Whitaker - https://amzn.to/4lrONFL Amy Einhorn, Editor - https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/people/article/93078-amy-einhorn-named-fiction-publisher-at-crown.html  The Last Child: A Novel by John Hart - https://amzn.to/4nyXcsT Nita Prose, author - https://www.nitaprose.com/ Tall Oaks by Chris Whitaker - https://amzn.to/40dYSOc A Prayer for Owen Meany: A Novel by John Irving - https://amzn.to/4kb8UH9 Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: A Novel by Gabrielled Zevin Guest’s Links: Website - https://sites.prh.com/chriswhitaker Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/chriswhitakerauthor/ Twitter - https://x.com/whittyauthor Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: What happens when the faith you were raised with no longer fits? Join us as we explore faith deconstruction and what it looks like to hold on to what matters while letting go of harmful narratives. Our guest, Mary Katherine Backstrom, knows this journey well. Once rooted in evangelical certainty, her world began to unravel—her marriage, career, and faith all shaken. In her raw and hilarious memoir, Not That Wheel Jesus, MK shares what it was like to question everything, wrestle with purity culture’s impact, and walk through the grief of lost certainties. As she puts it: “I walked through the rubble, I danced in the fire pits with my friends, and I've emerged into this quiet post-apocalyptic space where I can hear my own voice.” Whether you’re navigating your own faith shift or just curious, this conversation will resonate. And don’t forget—you can leave us your thoughts at jenhatmaker.com/podcast! Thought-provoking Quotes: “Everybody I speak to that's been on a growth journey of any sort—spiritual, emotional, whatever—you get to a point where you realize that confidence comes from not knowing everything and being at peace with what you can't figure out.” – MK Backstrom “It felt like I was looking at my life and feeling  like there's so much loss here, especially my sexuality. My church robbed me of joy. And that's the opposite of what was promised. Once I realized I participated in that behavior, I was able to make amends.” – MK Backstrom  “When I walk into that [church] space, it feels like going into a home where a child experienced abuse. I don't know that that's going to leave my body for a very long time. And it doesn't mean that I'm never gonna go back, but I also listen to myself better now and I'm not going to go somewhere where my body feels like it's on fire.” – MK Backstrom “My body is still responding to everything it's experienced for 40 years in the church. And I'm finally getting to the place where I'm starting to understand what my baseline feels like.” – MK Backstrom “If there is a God worth worshiping and there's a life worth living, those things can stand up to your big questions. No God is so fragile that your human curiosity is going to break this to pieces. No problem is so big in your life that you're not gonna get up and keep moving. There's a lot of freedom after the fear. Trust the process, ask questions.” – MK Backstrom Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Holy Hot Mess: Finding God in the Details of this Weird and Wonderful Life by Mary Katherine Backstrom - https://amzn.to/3ZV5GAi Not That Wheel, Jesus!: Stories From a Faith That Went Off-Road in the Best (and Worst) Possible Ways by Mary Katherine Backstrom - https://amzn.to/45KbY9v Rachel Held Evans - https://rachelheldevans.com/ Searching for Sunday: Loving, Leaving, and Finding the Church by Rachel Held Evans - https://amzn.to/4lxKkRY Dallas Willard - https://dwillard.org/ Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Sex MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/sex-101 Dr. Celeste Holbrook - https://www.drcelesteholbrook.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.mkbackstrom.com/ Twitter - https://x.com/mkbackstrom Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/MKBackstrom TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@marykatherinebackstrom Substack - https://marykatherinebackstrom.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: We’ve got an absolute legend in the house. She's a country music powerhouse, a Grammy winner, a TV star, a best-selling cookbook author, and honestly, probably the only person who could out-sing you and out-cook you on the same day — we’re talking about the one and only Trisha Yearwood. You know this queen’s voice from classics like 'She's in Love with the Boy' and 'How Do I Live' — songs that have made us cry, and belt in our cars, and maybe text someone we shouldn’t. And now, she’s back with a brand new album called The Mirror — and let us tell you, it’s not just a comeback, it’s a reflection, literally. It’s raw, it’s real, and it’s perhaps her most vulnerable project yet. The Mirror is Trisha’s first album where she’s co-written every song, stepping into new creative territory as both a singer and songwriter. It’s a window into Trisha’s life at this moment—a culmination of decades in the spotlight, but told on her own terms. It’s not just an album—it’s a statement of identity, and an invitation to look at yourself with courage and compassion. We’re talking about life, love, growth, and how Trisha continues to reinvent herself while staying grounded in what matters. So grab a coffee, or something stronger, and get comfy — because Trisha and Jen are inviting us into their conversation on how we let go of the things that no longer fit who we are so we can embrace the things putting fresh wind at our backs. Thought-provoking Quotes: “There’s something in me that really believes in me. It has to be or I wouldn't be sitting here doing these things.”– Trisha Yearwood “I've never been a person who could answer the question, ‘where do you see yourself in the next five years?’ I just know that I'm open to the opportunities.”– Trisha Yearwood “For a long time. I let the approval part of me drive the car. I drove that car to plenty of places I was out of alignment with. I don't think I'll ever be completely rid of that voice, but she's in the backseat now. She's not driving the car anymore.”– Trisha Yearwood “Songwriting makes you instantly intimate because you're having to be really vulnerable.”– Trisha Yearwood “From a young age, a lot of women are taught that we don't get to write our own story and we don't get to take control. But you get to decide what the truth about you is and how you want your life to be.”– Trisha Yearwood Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Mirror Album by Trisha Yearwood - https://trishayearwood.lnk.to/TheMirror Trisha’s Southern Kitchen on Food Network - https://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/trishas-southern-kitchen Dry Needling - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/16542-dry-needling Frozen Shoulder in Menopause - https://bit.ly/44NNOJi Awake: a Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40Og791 Walkaway Joe - https://open.spotify.com/track/5pzoq7ggrA0GN3SMjy0NT8 She’s in Love with a Boy - https://open.spotify.com/track/4EJvW4NHAk7TrIeX44jjXF The Song Remembers When - https://open.spotify.com/track/4dS7TYCTGKyhs9ZDt8iPcT The Bluebird Cafe - https://bluebirdcafe.com/ TalkShopLive - https://talkshop.live/channels/trishayearwood Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.trishayearwood.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/TrishaYearwood Twitter - https://x.com/TrishaYearwood Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TrishaYearwood Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw0Nn2LTsXGB0rP53Z0ACWQ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@itstrishayearwood Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices