The Outliers

Iran and North Korea are two of the clearest tests of the global nonproliferation order. North Korea has crossed the threshold entirely as an openly nuclear-armed state. Iran sits at the threshold, advancing its nuclear capabilities while denying its attempts to seek the bomb amid the current U.S.-Israeli war. In this episode Jane Perlez interviews former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman about how difficult it is to stop determined governments from reshaping the nuclear map. Sherman revisits the moment North Korea agreed to a temporary moratorium on select missile testing and the decisions that ultimately led nuclear diplomacy to break down. Sherman was also the lead U.S. negotiator for the 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal. “We cannot underestimate Iran's abilities or future capabilities,” Sherman says. “The whole world is in a much more dangerous place than it once was.” Reading Recommendations: Not for The Faint of Heart: Lessons in Courage, Power and Persistence by Wendy Sherman. A rare book: a gripping read by a senior government official at the center of the action. Kim Jong Un and the Bomb by Ankit Panda. The author, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, reveals how the mercurial leader got the bomb. Fallout: The Inside Story of America’s Failure to Disarm North Korea by Joel S. Wit. A candid account by a former State Department diplomat involved in the talks with Pyongyang. Iran and the Bomb by Sina Azodi. An assistant professor at George Washington University explores the trajectory of Iran, the United States and the bomb. Face-Off is produced and reported by Jane Perlez. Our production team is Nina Porzucki, Louise Morris, and Frank Zhou. Sound design and mixing by John Myers and Rowhome Productions. This project is made possible by the Belfer Center at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Managing the Atom Project. Our special guest is Professor Matthew Bunn, Faculty Chair of the Managing the Atom Project (@matthew-bunn.bsky.social). Face Off is produced in partnership with Rowhome Productions. Rowhome's Creative Director is Alex Lewis. John Myers is Rowhome's Executive Producer. Episode Art Image 1 Credit: AP Photo/Vahid Salemi. Image 1 Caption: Mojtaba, son of Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, center, attends the annual Quds, or Jerusalem Day rally in Tehran, Iran, on May 31, 2019. Episode Art Image 2 Credit: Korean Central News Agency/Korea News Service via AP. Image 2 Caption: In this photo provided by the North Korean government, North Korean leader Kim Jong Un delivers a speech during a dinner with Chinese President Xi Jinping, in Pyongyang, Monday, June 8, 2026. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices