Jen Hatmaker on Divorce, Deconstruction, and Rebuilding from Scratch

How do we stay hopeful in the face of despair and disillusionment—especially when politics threaten to tear us in two? Kate speaks with Parker Palmer, a writer, teacher, and activist. As you’ll hear, he has gone through seasons of deep clinical depression, and has hard-won wisdom to share with us on how to survive, how to regain a sense of agency, how to remain hopeful despite it all.  In this episode, Kate and Parker discuss: finding agency in the midst of depression and despair (including his trick of redefining achievement) why it is important to recalibrate our sense of reality—especially in the face of 24-hour news cycles and social media algorithms how a broken heart can either shatter or break open into a larger, more compassionate way of being So on a day like today when we all might be thinking about the state of our nation or the state of our world or the realities at stake for our families and friends (....or perhaps, more tempted to keep our head in the sand to just make it through Thanksgiving), might we pull up close and listen to what Parker has to teach us about how to keep our hearts soft and remain hopeful, still.  If you liked this episode, you’ll also love:  Sharon McMahon on the small differences we can make Will Willimon on aging into a new vocation Watch clips from this conversation, read the full transcript, and access discussion questions by clicking here or visiting katebowler.com/podcasts. Follow Kate on Instagram, Facebook, or X (formerly known as Twitter)—@katecbowler. Links to social pages and more available at linktr.ee/katecbowler. This episode originally aired in November 2024.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Joy won't cure you, but it will carry you. After surviving a stage-four cancer diagnosis, Kate Bowler knew she was supposed to be grateful. Alive. Blessed. But she still ached—for more connection, more surprise, less resentment on an ordinary day. So she went looking for joy. Not the toxic positivity kind. Not a 5-step plan. But the type that sneaks in unexpectedly, seemingly out of nowhere. A lemur sunbathing. A belly laugh at a funeral. A dive into the Atlantic with a shark wrangler. In Joyful, Anyway, Bowler takes us on a hilarious and tender journey through big questions and small delights. With wry wit and deep honesty, she explores how joy can surprise us even in the middle of pain, boredom, and longing. This is not a book about fixing your life. It is about how we can all find more—feel more—by making room for small extraordinary moments. For anyone who has ever felt stuck, who is achy for meaning, who feels undone by loss, who feels that joy is just out of reach, who wants, simply, to have more fun, Joyful Anyway is a delicious, insightful tour through the questions that sit in the deepest part of our souls. It proves that for every time we ask: Is this it? Joy will answer: there is more. Joyful, Anyway releases on April 7, 2026, but you can pre-order now from all of your favorite retailers. Bookshop Amazon Apple Books Barnes & Noble Indigo Check out that gorgeous cover!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everywhere you turn, there’s something to worry about. And sometimes that buzzing hum of anxiety is trying to tell us something important—about our body, our heart, our world. In this episode, holistic psychiatrist Dr. Ellen Vora joins Kate to talk about the difference between false anxiety (the kind sparked by sleepless nights or too much caffeine) and true anxiety (the kind that whispers: something isn’t right here). Together, they explore practical ways to tend to our overtaxed nervous systems and how to live with more steadiness and grace in a world that never lets up. Show Notes: The Anatomy of Anxiety: Understanding and Overcoming the Body’s Fear Response by Ellen Vora, MD Join Kate on Substack for essays, blessings, and cultural commentary. Shake it out – Ellen recommends a 90-second shake (yes, really!) as one way to complete the stress cycle. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when love isn’t enough to hold up a broken system? Ai-jen Poo—award-winning organizer and executive director of the National Domestic Workers Alliance—joins Kate Bowler to talk about caregiving in America. Who provides it. Who’s left out. And why we need a system that treats care as the sacred, shared labor that it is. Together they explore: Why more than 100 million Americans are caregiving right now What it costs to support a loved one—and why the math doesn’t add up The long shadow of slavery in how we treat domestic workers today Why dignity and agency are essential in every stage of life What it would look like to build a policy solution that works for everyone If you’re carrying the care of someone else—or fearing the moment when you will—this conversation is for you. Show Notes Caring Across Generations – A movement co-led by Ai-jen Poo to transform the way we care in America. National Domestic Workers Alliance – Advocating for the dignity and rights of the people who care for our homes and loved ones. The Age of Dignity by Ai-jen Poo – A powerful read on what the “elder boom” means for all of us. Find your elected officials – Contact Congress to protect Medicaid and support caregiving policies. State-by-state Medicaid info – Learn what Medicaid is called in your state and how it supports care. Congressional Budget Office – For context on recent Medicaid budget cuts and projections for coverage loss. Aspen Ideas Festival Share your caregiving story on Substack – Join the conversation with others who are navigating care. A Blessing for Care-Givers and Care-Receivers – A gentle word for those in the trenches of giving or needing care. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when the life you were supposed to have… disappears? Jen Hatmaker joins Kate Bowler for a conversation about faith, divorce, and the slow art of healing. After the collapse of her marriage and being pushed out of the evangelical world, Jen had to figure out how to live again—how to co-parent, pay bills, go to therapy, and mother herself after decades of being the “pastor’s wife.” They talk about: What it means to lose a marriage, a career, and a community—at once The weight of being a “good” evangelical woman Codependency, caretaking, and letting your kids have their pain The deep joy of discovering you can rebuild from scratch This is for the people who are learning how to live when the story changes. A conversation about grief, grace, and not doing it alone. Show Notes: Awake by Jen Hatmaker – her latest book on rebuilding a life after loss Support Guides — for divorce, caregiving, and rebuilding from the Everything Happens Project Have a Beautiful, Terrible Day! by Kate Bowler – meditations for the ups, downs, and in-betweens The Preacher’s Wife by Kate Bowler  For the Love podcast with Jen Hatmaker Jen Hatmaker's book club – a delightfully honest reading community Come hang out in our favorite little corner of the internet, Kate's Substack. Check out the last time Jen joined Kate on the Everything Happens podcast! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There are no training manuals for this. Just a child staring up at you with cartoon eyes and an inner monologue that asks: Am I doing this right? Am I ruining them? Kate sits down with Dr. Becky Kennedy—a clinical psychologist and creator of Good Inside—to talk about the heartbreak and hope of parenting. What does it mean to raise (or re-raise) someone with compassion and boundaries, especially when you never learned how? Whether you're parenting toddlers, teens, or the little one inside yourself, this conversation offers grace for anyone trying again. Show Notes: Good Inside by Dr. Becky Kennedy — parenting platform, book, and podcast A Blessing for When You're Not the Parent You Meant to Be  katebowler.substack.com — essays, blessings, and community reflections Support Guide: When Your Child is in Pain — for parents supporting kids through emotional struggle Support Guide: Those Who Care for Teens — compassionate care for older children See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When someone you love is in pain—whether they’re sick, addicted, or falling apart—you show up. Again and again and again. You make the calls. You hold the line. You carry what you can. But what happens when love, loyalty, and devotion blur into something harder to name? When care turns into codependency, and compassion starts to erase your sense of self? Kate sits down with best-selling author Elizabeth Gilbert (Eat, Pray, Love; Big Magic) to talk about the toll and the tenderness of caregiving. Liz’s new memoir, All the Way to the River, chronicles her years caring for someone she loved deeply through addiction and illness—and what it meant to finally let go. Together, they explore: What it means to walk someone you love to the edge of life How codependence disguises itself as devotion The permission we need to be more than someone’s lifeline This conversation is for anyone who has ever loved to the point of exhaustion. Who wonders if love is meant to cost this much. Who needs a blessing for the moment when helping means losing yourself. 🧡 Listen with care. Leave with permission. Find Kate on Substack.Grab your Everything Happens Merch. Books by Elizabeth Gilbert All the Way to the River – A raw memoir of caregiving, addiction, and release Big Magic – On creativity, inspiration, and the discipline of making Eat, Pray, Love – A bestselling memoir on desire, spirituality, and selfhood The Signature of All Things – A novel of science, wonder, and the search for understanding Resources + Mentions TED Talk: Your Elusive Creative Genius – Liz’s viral TED talk on creative brilliance Alcoholics Anonymous – A spiritual practice of surrender discussed in the episode Sky Cave Retreats – Where Liz spent five days in total darkness See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, Kate speaks with surgeon, writer, and public health leader Dr. Atul Gawande about the deeply human questions that surface when medicine meets its limits. What does it mean to be a good doctor when a cure isn’t possible? What do people really mean when they say they want “quality of life”? Together, they talk about caregiving, end-of-life decisions, and how the most honest conversations in healthcare begin—not with answers—but with better questions. For anyone living with chronic illness, caring for someone they love, or wondering what it means to live a good life with limits, this conversation won’t offer easy fixes. But it might offer something just as rare: clarity, compassion, and the courage to ask what really matters. Watch the full episode on YouTube: Kate C. Bowler on YouTube Subscribe to Kate’s Substack: katebowler.substack.com Show notes:  The Aspen Ideas Festival Being Mortal by Dr. Atul Gawande The Green House Project Ari Johnson & Muso Health Organizations for further action: World Food Programme, UNICEF, American Red Cross See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You were supposed to be a whole new person by now. Sun-kissed and emotionally regulated. Inbox at zero. But here we are—still tired, still trying, still wondering if change is even possible. In this episode, I reflect on the seasons when we ache to become someone else. Someone better and explore the ancient idea of virtue—especially the least sexy one, prudence—as a compass for who we’re becoming and how. Rooted in Christian theology, this episode is for the slow changers. The late bloomers. The people choosing one small, faithful step instead of a total overhaul. Plus, it includes a blessing for anyone who’s trying to change... but not overnight. 📘 Want more blessings like this? Pick up Have a Beautiful, Terrible Day 💌 Join the conversation on Substack: katebowler.substack.com.🎧 Listen to more episodes at katebowler.com/podcasts.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We are re-airing some of our favorite episodes during our summer break like this one with expert facilitator, Priya Parker. After the pandemic took apart so many of our favorite ways of hanging out, we might be out of practice. Or too tired or overwhelmed. Priya encourages us all to practice being together for different reasons. And they don’t have to be nearly as fancy or predictable as we might think… In this episode, Kate and Priya discuss:  How do we show up for other people and ourselves in creative ways  How to know when a change might be needed in a regular gathering  Risk and the awkwardness of needing people   *** Looking for the transcript or show notes? Click here. Find Kate on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. Subscribe to receive blessings in your inbox every week. No Cure for Being Human (And Other Truths I Need to Hear) is now available in PAPERBACK. Order your copy, today. Looking for some short spiritual reflections and blessings? Check out GOOD ENOUGH: 40ish Devotionals for a Life of Imperfection. Available wherever books are sold. We are going to practice the season of Advent together. Download a free Advent guide, here.    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.