Bonus Episode: Listen, Learn, & Love

When Kari and her husband started their family in 1994, they chose to be sealed in the temple because they believed that it would bind their family together for eternity. When Kimberly and their other children chose not to participate in the temple, it called those beliefs into question. In this episode of Coffee and Cocoa, Kari and Kimberly consider their temple experiences and the meanings that have been given to temple rituals and symbols, both good and bad. They start with the basics for those who aren’t familiar with LDS temples--the differences between churches and temples, and who can and can’t enter the temple. They talk through the ways that the temple, which is supposed to bring families together, has sometimes become a wedge between them, and they end with how they continue to try to support each other in the things that are important to each of them.

What does it mean to be a peacemaker? In this episode of Coffee & Cocoa, Kari shares with Kimberly a presentation she attended by author, professor, and podcaster, Patrick Mason, where he shared four basic tools of peacemaking. They discuss how people in the church often interpret and teach peacemaking as being passive and submissive and avoiding conflict, and they contrast that with Dallin Oaks recent address at the National Cathedral where he encouraged all people to learn the “language and methods of peacemaking”. They go through Patrick Mason’s four basic tools: normalizing conflict, seeing each other as people, reflecting intentionally on your theory of change, and cultivating inner peace. They talk about how they try to use these tools in their own lives, and how their values motivated the creation of this podcast. If you struggle with avoiding conflict, or if you need more peace in your relationships, this episode will be helpful for you.

Our family is a lot bigger than just two people. This week, younger sister, Josie joins Coffee and Cocoa to tell her story for the first time start to finish. Josie grew up as the “perfect child”: smart, pretty, a people-pleaser, and the girl everyone wanted to babysit their kids, but underneath all that was a lot she didn’t have words for yet. She talks about growing up with undiagnosed autism and ADHD, tying her worth to her standing in the church, and what it was like when her oldest sibling left and the family stopped talking about it. She also shares what she went through as a teenager, how church leaders responded, and how therapy slowly helped her stop blaming herself. Then Josie, Kari, and Kimberly talk openly about the anger, the estrangement, and what it took to begin rebuilding their relationship. Content note: This episode includes frank discussion of suicidal ideation, sexual assault and coercion, an emotionally abusive relationship, and a harmful experience with church discipline. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Season two of Coffee and Cocoa is here! Kari and Kimberly are back from a long break, and they jump right into the conversation that's been all over their feeds while they were away: why so many young women are leaving the LDS Church. Reacting to a Salt Lake Tribune article on the topic, a mother who stayed and a daughter who left take on three reasons women cite for leaving: politics, purity culture, and power and how those dynamics have played out in their own lives. Kimberly adds a fourth from her own observations: women no longer see themselves in the church's model of womanhood. Along the way they talk about Prop 8, "teddy bear Jesus," modesty rules that changed between generations, bioessentialism, the cost of a one-income household, and why Kari stays while understanding exactly why others go.

We are taking a season break, but wanted to share this bonus episode with Richard Ostler from the Listen, Learn, & Love Podcast. Richard’s podcast is all about amplifying queer and other marginalized voices in the LDS community, and telling their stories. We really enjoyed our time with him, and hope that you will enjoy this interview. The video version is a little easier to listen to, as the tracks are better aligned. You can find that on the Listen, Learn & Love Podcast Youtube page, or at this link:https://youtu.be/YIKsjXnlQIc?si=9jigff_L9jp7Q3dL We will be back in October with more Coffee & Cocoa!

For the past three months, Kimberly and Kari have been tossing ideas back and forth about the good and bad in the LDS Church. This week, Kimberly makes her case for why Kari should leave. She covers the historical and theological reasons she finds the church untrue, the problems with prophetic authority and the lack of diversity in leadership, and why she believes the church can sometimes get in the way of living a genuinely Christ-like life. Kari responds with where she's landed after years of wrestling. Not certainty, but compassion. Not perfection, but people stumbling toward the light. They end this season where they began, with respect for each other’s choices, and lots of love for each other.

For the last two episodes of the season, Kari and Kimberly are going to try to convince each other why they should switch teams. This week, Kari presents her case for why Kimberly should come back to the LDS church. She shares why she thinks it would benefit her, what she misses about having her kids in the church, and why she thinks that the church would be better if Kimberly were still a part of it. Will Kimberly change her mind and come back? You will have to listen to find out.

CULT. It’s a word that gets thrown around a lot when it comes to religion, but what does it even mean? In this episode, Kimberly and Kari evaluate the LDS church, using Steven Hassan’s BITE model. They discuss how undue influence is sometimes exerted in church organization, and why it is important to examine our own motivations for our behavior and to pay attention to our own feelings of right and wrong. Of course, the TLDR version is, it’s nuanced, and any organization that involves human beings is going to tend towards some cultishness, so how do we maintain our individual integrity while being part of a group? That’s the real question they grapple with in this discussion. This episode is longer than most, but worth the listen.

In this episode of Coffee & Cocoa, the real-life mother and daughter dynamics come out. What starts as a lighthearted discussion about EFY and church youth culture triggers feelings and frustrations, and leads to a more emotional disagreement about deeper issues and conflicting values. What are the motivations behind church programs and policies? Are they achieving what the church would hope? Are they actually bearing good fruit? They don’t agree on everything in the end, but they do something even harder. They lean in, call out the feelings and the disagreements, listen to each other, and end with saying “I love you” and meaning it. If you’ve ever had a conversation that unexpectedly turned into an argument, and you didn’t know what to do about it, you will want to listen to this episode.

Maintaining family relationships can be difficult in the best of times, but when one or more family members decides to leave the faith that the family once shared, it can be especially challenging. This episode is part two of Kimberly and Kari sharing some of the specific lessons they have learned about rebuilding their relationship after they found themselves on different sides of the faith divide. Who goes first when it comes to reaching out? What can you do when you think it’s the other person who needs to change? And how do you learn to accept each other when you disagree about really important things? If you really want to reconnect with someone you love who doesn’t believe the same things you do, don’t miss this episode.