The £60 Billion Plan To Rewire Britain | Ep227: John Pettigrew

What does it take to rewire a nation’s energy system? Can we make the grid cleaner, smarter, and more resilient — without driving up bills? And how will the explosion of AI data centres reshape the future of electricity demand?This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with John Pettigrew, outgoing CEO of National Grid, for a candid conversation marking the end of his 35-year career. Together they explore the UK’s £60 billion plan to deliver Clean Power by 2030, the race to build transmission for offshore wind, the growing strain from AI-driven electricity demand, and lessons from major outages in Spain and Heathrow.Pettigrew reflects on the evolving “energy trilemma” — balancing decarbonisation, reliability, and affordability — shares reflections from his 35-year career: what’s changed, what went wrong, and what comes next for the grids powering our clean energy future.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:John’s first appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/1HVcJuO9dNIRoger Dennis on Cleaning Up 'The Price of Resilience': https://youtu.be/CELQT31riDENational Grid’s £60 billion plan: https://www.nationalgrid.com/gridforgrowthNational Energy System Operator (NESO): https://www.neso.energy/Final report from what happened to the Heathrow substation: https://www.neso.energy/news/final-report-review-north-hyde-substation-outage

What does it take for India to deliver electricity to hundreds of millions while simultaneously building a fast-growing clean energy system? Can it overcome its fossil dependence to secure its energy futures with renewables? And how will India’s development choices shape the global climate fight in the decades ahead?India, like China, is home to over a billion people, and is highly reliant on imported fossil fuels and domestic coal. But unlike China, it still has a very rural population and has not yet experienced the rapid rise in per capita energy consumption that accompanied China’s recent development boom. The future path India takes to development is therefore of critical importance.In this episode of Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with Dr. Arunabha Ghosh, founder and CEO of the Council on Energy, Environment and Water, and Special Envoy for COP30. Together they explore India’s “twin transition”, achieving universal energy access while driving a massive expansion of clean power. From the data-driven electrification of 130 million households, to innovations in market design that slashed solar prices, to India’s push for secure, diversified green supply chains, this conversation reveals a rarely told side of India’s energy transition story.Arunabha also shares insights on India’s role in international climate diplomacy, the significance of cooperation with China and Brazil, and the urgent need for hyper-local climate risk assessment to protect communities from extreme weather.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Council on Energy, Environment and Water website: https://www.ceew.in/India hits 50% non-fossil power milestone ahead of 2030 clean energy target: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-hits-50-non-fossil-power-milestone-ahead-2030-clean-energy-target-2025-07-14/How can India make the leap to become a green, clean country? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/sep/28/huge-energy-challenges-how-can-india-make-leap-green-clean-country 

Why should we care about coral reefs? What happens when they collapse? And is there still hope for their survival?In this episode of Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with coral reef ecologist Dr. Katharina Fabricius, who has witnessed six mass bleaching events on the Great Barrier Reef over her three decades of research.From the “seven sins of climate change” threatening reefs — heat waves, acidification, storms, nutrient runoff, and more — to the resilience and surprising adaptability of corals, Katharina offers a sobering yet hopeful look at the future of our oceans. Together, they explore the science, politics, and moral responsibility of protecting one of the world’s most critical ecosystems, and why the fate of coral reefs is deeply tied to human survival.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links:Ep180: Dr Helen Czerski on Oceans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fORkPoR48SUThe latest AIMS report on the state of the Great Barrier Reef: https://www.aims.gov.au/monitoring-great-barrier-reef/gbr-condition-summary-2024-25The Seven Sins of Climate Change report 

The election of Donald Trump to a second term as President marked a turning point in the politics of climate action – not just in the US, but around the world.The airwaves are suddenly awash with commentators, claiming that the transition has failed, that it was always a fool’s errand, and that we must resign ourselves to a fossil-based future forever.The narratives of failure all revel in pointing out that we have not seen dramatic cuts in fossil fuel use globally, consistent with keeping the temperature increase to 1.5C, and are not on track to achieve global net zero by 2050.The climate and clean energy community is facing a choice. It can remain reactive, doubling down on old narratives, pressing on with existing policies, preaching to the converted and watching the pace of change slow for the next few years.Or it can undertake what I call a Pragmatic Climate Reset: Wind back historical over-reach, accept harsh realities, address legitimate concerns, refresh its offer and find new ways of communicating with a confused public.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:• Read the full article on BNEF: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-ii-a-provocation/• Watch the first part of the pragmatic climate reset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2_BzQ

Is the future of clean energy and climate solutions brighter than we think? In this episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes back Hannah Ritchie — Deputy Editor at Our World in Data, researcher at the Oxford Martin School, and author of her new book, Clearing the Air.In Clearing the Air, Hannah tackles 50 of the most common myths and misconceptions about climate solutions, from “Isn’t climate action too polarised and politically divisive to fix?” to “What happens when the wind doesn’t blow?” and “Won’t the world run out of minerals?” Hannah dives into the data behind renewables, electric cars, nuclear power, grids, and even lab-grown meat — cutting through the noise with clarity.Michael quizzes Hannah on why she wrote the book and what she hopes to achieve with it, and whether it has the potential to change the minds of climate skeptics. This conversation offers a grounded, accessible look at what really works, what doesn’t, and why we should feel more hopeful than the doom-filled narratives suggest.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links & more:Clearing The Air: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/462676/clearing-the-air-by-ritchie-hannah/9781784745745Ep147: Dr Hannah Ritchie: https://youtu.be/fMLmeWc7NFoEp178: Dr Andy Palmer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzDWFFRDK8oDecarbonising the Last Few Percent: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/decarbonizing-the-last-few-percent 

What happens when cheap solar flips the script on climate sceptics? Can pumped hydro really deliver the long-duration storage we need? And is “hope” a dangerous comforter in the race to net zero?In this season opener of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Malcolm Turnbull — former Prime Minister of Australia, lawyer, statesman, energy investor, and climate champion. From leading Australia through fierce political battles over climate policy to now spearheading renewable projects through Turnbull Renewables, he offers a rare insider’s perspective on the global clean energy transition.Turnbull and Liebreich explore the clash between optimism and realism in climate action: why cheap solar is reshaping politics, the promise and pitfalls of green hydrogen, and whether pumped hydro could be the long-duration storage solution the world needs. Along the way, they reflect on U.S. politics under Trump, trade negotiations without American leadership, and why “hope is not a strategy” when it comes to energy security.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Snowy 2.0: https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/International Hydropower Association: https://www.hydropower.org/Green Trade or Green Trade-Off - Ep52: Tony AbbottHow Big Things (Should) Get Done - Ep128: Prof. Bent FlyvbjergIs The Tide Turning On Hydrogen? Ep210: Andrew ForrestYa Basta: https://liebreich.com/214-2/The Spycatcher Trial: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/sep/14/malcolm-turnbull-spycatcher-lawyer-prime-minister

This episode was originally broadcast in February 2024Bryony returns with Bonny Simi, President of Operations at Joby Aviation, where she's working on bringing to market a new civilian electric VTOL (eVTOL) aircraft. Prior to joining the team at Joby, Bonny held several operational and strategic roles at JetBlue Most notably, she founded and led JetBlue Technology Ventures, investing in improving the travel, hospitality, and transportation industries. As a pilot, Bonny has commanded Boeing, Airbus and Embraer aircraft at both United Airlines and JetBlue Airways. She is also an Emmy-nominated sports reporter and a 3-time Olympian in the sport of Luge. She holds a BA in Communications, a MS in Management and a MS in Engineering, all from Stanford University, as well as a MS in Human Resources from Regis University. Links and more:Watch the full video of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldy_NC-Doi4First Piloted eVTOL Air Taxi Flight Between Two Public Airports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDNo3VYiOcsJoby's website: https://www.jobyaviation.com Read about Joby's partnership with the US DoD here: https://www.jobyaviation.com/news/joby-delivers-first-evtol-edwards/ Hear Bonny talk more about her lessons from competing in luge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj9Ey6fdnT0 Listen to the theme song from Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines (the title inspiration for this episode!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgS26ZhqZs

This episode was originally broadcast in April 2022Alex Honnold is one of the world’s best rock climbers, famous for his free solo ascents of big walls, including his 2017 first free solo of El Capitan in Yosemite.Alex began studies in engineering at the University of California-Berkeley but dropped out to pursue his passion for climbing, living out of his van. He first attracted attention within the climbing community in 2008 when he became the first climber to free solo Half Dome in Yosemite. In 2012 he established the speed record for the Yosemite Triple Crown, climbing three big walls in under 19 hours. With Hans Florine, Alex climbed the popular Nose of El Capitan, a nearly 3,000-foot granite wall, in a record time of two hours 23 minutes and 51 seconds – a feat National Geographic described as perhaps " the greatest feat of pure rock climbing in the history of the sport."Alex has been profiled by 60 minutes and the New York Times, appeared on the cover of National Geographic and starred in numerous adventure films. In 2015, together with professional climbing writer David Roberts, he authored Alone on the Wall, the story of seven of his greatest climbing feats up to that year.In 2012 Alex founded the Honnold Foundation to provide solar power to some of the disadvantaged communities he was coming across in his climbing career. In 2021 the Foundation supported 44 communities across 17 countries with its brand of community-centered innovation catalysed by solar energy.Links and more:Watch the video of this episode: https://youtu.be/MwmQf0mhHkEHonnold Foundation: https://www.honnoldfoundation.org/Free Solo Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urRVZ4SW7WUFree Solo website: https://films.nationalgeographic.com/free-soloThe Ascent of Alex Honnold – CBS special report with Lara Logan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR1jwwagtaQEduro Corner: The most exposed move of Alex’s Free Solo climb of El Capitan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blfR33DUqsgProject Bo: https://www.projectbo.org/Project Bo, lessons learned: https://www.liebreich.com/project-bo-saving-lives-in-sierra-leone-with-solar-batteries-and-twitter/

What if the energy transition isn't a race, but a steady march toward the end of fossil fuel usage? Do we need to move more like the tortoise, and less like the hare? And in a world of competing narratives, who gets to define "pragmatism"?In this season finale of Cleaning Up, hosts Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington unpack these questions as they review Season 15's most compelling conversations about energy transformation, and celebrate five years of Cleaning Up. They dissect the current political landscape, particularly the challenges facing clean energy in the United States, and Bryony grills Michael on his recent Bloomberg essay on the "Pragmatic Climate Reset."This is the final episode of Season 15 of Cleaning Up, join us in September for the start of Season 16.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Watch all the episodes in Season 15 of Cleaning Up: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe8ZTD7dMaaB2B4gQpVBd34bjcF1w0BpP&feature=sharedSee our archive of over 200 episodes at https://www.cleaningup.live/

In February, veteran fossil industry advisor Dan Yergin and two co-authors published a piece called The Troubled Transition. In it they dismiss the idea that there is or can ever be an energy transition, anchored on the fact that fossil fuels contributed 85% to so-called primary energy in 1990 and still contribute 80% today. Needless to say, their argument has been widely amplified by the oil and gas industry. They conclude with a demand for a new approach – which they call a “pragmatic path”. Pragmatism is needed, but not the pragmatism of defeat. Not the ‘pragmatism’ of believing fossil fuels hold the key to further human progress. Not the ‘pragmatism’ of addressing climate change only if it suits the interests of fossil-fuel companies. What is needed is the pragmatism of robust but affordable climate action. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich debunks narratives that trumpet the alleged failure of climate action, and explains why a pragmatic climate reset is needed.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more: Read the full article on BNEF: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/Tony Blair Institute Climate Reset Report: https://institute.global/insights/climate-and-energy/the-climate-paradox-why-we-need-to-reset-action-on-climate-changeMichael Cembalest 15th annual Eye On The Market: https://am.jpmorgan.com/content/dam/jpm-am-aem/global/en/insights/eye-on-the-market/heliocentrism-amv.pdfDan Yergin et al, The Troubled Transition: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/troubled-energy-transition-yergin-orszag-aryaGenerative AI – The Power and the Glory: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-generative-ai-the-power-and-the-glory/Five Superheroes of the Transition: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/Tony Blair on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/Ko90KbFKBnIDan Yergin on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QIh4U3Vgjc