NATS and the CNCF kerfuffle (Changelog Interviews #641)

Our old friend Chris McCord, creator of Elixir's Phoenix framework, tells us all about his new remote AI runtime for building Phoenix apps. Along the way, we vibe code one of my silly app ideas, calculate all the money we're going to spend on these tools, and get existential about what it all means.

Chris Anderson joins the show. You may recognize Chris from the early days of CouchDB and Couchbase. Back when the world was just waking up to NoSQL, Chris was at the center of it all, shaping how developers think about data distribution and offline-first architecture. These days, Chris is working on Vibes.diy and Fireproof — tools that make one-shot app generation not only possible, but shareable within minutes. We talk about the origins of CouchDB, the fork that led to Membase and Couchbase, and how that long journey led to this new paradigm: Vibe Coding.

Jerod chats with Richard Feldman about Roc – his fast, friendly, functional language inspired by Richard's love of Elm. Roc takes many of Elm's ideas beyond the frontend and introduces some great ideas of its own. Get ready to learn about static dispatch, platforms vs applications, opportunistic mutation, purity inference, and a whole lot more.

The ever-provocative Steve Yegge joins us fresh off a vibe coding bender so productive, he wrote a book on the topic alongside award-winning author Gene Kim. Steve tells us why he believes the IDE is dead, why babysitting AI agents is more fun than coding, when vibe coding might take over the enterprise, how software devs should approach coding agents, and what it all means for society.

We're on location at Microsoft Build 2025 with Amanda Silver, Corporate Vice President of Microsoft's Developer Division. Amanda leads product, design, user research, and engineering systems for some of the tools you use every day. We discuss the latest AI announcements from Microsoft at Build 2025, how AI is reshaping development tools, what's next for VS Code, TypeScript, GitHub's evolution, and even emerging editors like Windsurf that are forking the VS Code ecosystem.

Microsoft finally opens the source of WSL, Paolo Scanferla describes an inherent trade-off in TypeScript's type system, Alberto Fortin is taking a step back from heavy LLM use while coding, a pseudonymous hacker spent two weeks coding from their Android phone, and NLWeb might become the HTML of the open agentic web.

Welcome back to #define, our game of obscure jargon, fake definitions, and expert tomfoolery. We've gathered some awesome friends, new and old, to see who has the best vocabulary and who can trick the everyone else into thinking that they do.

Derek Collison — creator of NATS and Co-founder & CEO of Synadia — joins the show to dive into the origins, design, and evolution of NATS, a high-performance, open-source messaging system built for modern cloud-native systems and part of the CNCF. Derek shares the story behind NATS, what makes it unique, and unpacks the recent tensions between Synadia and the CNCF over the future of the project.

Rasmus Holm takes a critical look at MCP, Stefan Judis shares a new term he learned from Scott Hanselman, Raf beautifully describes the curse of knowing how, Void is an open source Cursor alternative & React Jam is back for its 6th online game jam.

Kaizen 19 has arrived! Gerhard has been laser-focused on making Jerod's pipe dream a reality by putting all of his efforts into Pipely. Has it been a big waste of time or has this epic side quest morphed into a main quest?!