308: Defining Minerality, Mouthfeel and Musty Aromas with Gus Zhu

Why is smell, often called the Cinderella sense, so underrated in our culture, especially when many luxury products, such as wine, spirits and perfume, are based on it? Even though dogs have more than twice the number of scent receptors than humans, why are we better at detecting wine aromas? What might surprise you about how we perceive the senses of taste and smell? Why is the sense of smell so evocative compared to other senses? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with author Johannes Frasnelli. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights What were some of the most memorable smells from Johannes’ childhood? How did Johannes first become fascinated with the subject of smell and the science behind it? What were the most surprising things Johannes discovered about our sense of smell in his research so far? What might surprise you about how we perceive the senses of taste and smell? Why is the sense of smell often undervalued compared to other senses like sight? How does the process of smell work? What’s the connection between the trigeminal nerve and wine tasting? What’s the difference between taste and flavor, and how do they work together? How does our sense of smell compare to animals like dogs? Do men and women perceive smells differently? Why is the sense of smell so evocative compared to other senses? How can expectations and language influence our smell perception?   Key Takeaways Johannes explains that there’s a myth about us not having as good a sense of smell as other animals, but this has its roots in the 19th century, when Darwinian ideas emerged. Suddenly, we were just another animal and not this creation of God. So different players, including the Catholic Church. It’s these senses that are very developed for us as humans such as sight versus smell. In the context of wine, Johannes says, humans are particularly sensitive, and this may be an evolutionary advantage. Our ancestors became much more sensitive to these odors than carnivores that didn’t eat fruit. So while we have fewer smell receptors, we have a better performing brain to interpret and apply the information. The regions of the brain responsible for olfactory processing belong to the limbic system, which is also responsible for other functions such as emotions, memory, learning, and reward. So when we smell something, we also stimulate our memories, emotions, desire for rewards, etc.   About Johannes Frasnelli After being trained as a physician at University of Vienna, Austria, Johannes Frasnelli was a visiting scientist in research labs in Dresden, Germany, in Philadelphia, PA, in Stockholm, Sweden, and in Bozen, Italy. He is currently a professor for human anatomy at the University of Quebec at Trois-Rivières (UQTR), while also being a regular researcher at the Research Center of the Sacré-Coeur Hospital of Montreal. His research focuses on the physiology, the psychology and the pathology of the sense of smell.             To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/311.

What might surprise you about the impact of alcohol on heart disease? How can wine drinkers reduce the risk of certain cancers with one supplement? Does wine help protect against cognitive decline and dementia? Why do some organizations make extreme recommendations for eliminating alcohol? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with author Tony Edwards. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Three of you will win a copy of his terrific new book, The Very Good News About Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights What positive health effects were found in Harvard’s long-term research on alcohol and heart disease? How can wine consumption decrease the risk of certain cancers? What did the Mayo Clinic study find about the relationship between women and red wine? How does the concept of absolute risk versus relative risk contribute to sensational headlines? What’s the connection between folate and cancer risk and how does alcohol consumption affect this dynamic? How might wine protect against cognitive decline and dementia? Why does wine play such an important part in the longevity puzzle for certain populations? What is the surprising relationship between wine consumption and inflammation? Why does Tony believe the World Health Organization's 2023 declaration that no level of alcohol consumption is safe is rooted in an anti-alcohol agenda rather than evidence? What’s happening with alcohol-labeling legislation in Ireland, and how might it spread to other countries? What were the problems with the controversial drinking guidelines proposed in Canada, and where did they come from?   Key Takeaways Folate is depleted by alcohol. Harvard researchers discovered that if you give women folate in supplement form, women drinkers will reduce their risk of breast cancer massively to the extent of wiping out the risk. Wine helps protect against cognitive decline and dementia. According to a large Swedish study that showed that women who drank wine exclusively had a 75% reduced risk of Alzheimer's. Some organizations make extreme recommendations for eliminating alcohol consumption altogether, despite the research showing otherwise and Tony thinks the problem is that they find the idea of the J curve very difficult to explain.   About Tony Edwards Former BBC science documentary producer/director/writer. Now specializing in medical research journalism, Tony Edwards is a former BBC TV producer/ director/ writer, with over 80 science documentaries to his credit, some winning awards from such bodies as the British Medical Association. After the BBC, he wrote on science, technology and medicine for The Sunday Times, Readers Digest, Daily Mail and a wide variety of medical magazines. He is married to the broadcaster and novelist Debbie Rix; they have two grown-up children, three hens and four cats, and live in rural Kent.           To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/310.

Have the health risks of moderate wine consumption been grossly overstated? How does moderate wine consumption reduce heart disease? What is the ideal amount and pattern of wine consumption for maximum health benefits, and how does it differ between men and women? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with author Tony Edwards. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Three of you will win a copy of his terrific new book, The Very Good News About Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights How did Tony’s experience as a BBC producer and a medical columnist shape his approach to researching and writing about wine? Why does Tony believe the glycemic index is more accurate than the calorie theory for measuring food values? What impact does alcohol have on your insulin response? What does research show about the benefits of dry wine for diabetics? What motivated Tony to revisit the topic of alcohol and health a decade after his first book, The Good News About Booze? Which aspects of synthesizing decades of research on wine and health did Tony find most challenging? Why was wine prescribed in UK hospitals and by physicians during the Prohibition era in North America? What is the ideal amount and pattern of wine consumption for maximum health benefits? How does the J-curve demonstrate the extent of the health benefits of wine for heart health and diabetes? Does the alcohol in wine influence its health benefits? What are the health implications of non-alcoholic wines compared to moderate consumption of regular wine?   Key Takeaways Tony explains that the alcohol consumption guidelines are completely the inverse of what the evidence says. He wondered why the guidelines were being reduced to a level that actually no one benefits from moderate wine consumption. Study after study shows wine is really good news. Tony observes that it’s actually the collection of polyphenols in wine that have the beneficial effect rather than simply resveratrol alone. It's the interaction of these polyphenols with each other that produces a benefit. Tony notes that a study in 2018 came to the conclusion that for men, the maximum optimum intake of wine per day was 60 grams, which is about two-thirds of the bottle, and for women, half that.   About Tony Edwards Former BBC science documentary producer/director/writer. Now specializing in medical research journalism, Tony Edwards is a former BBC TV producer/ director/ writer, with over 80 science documentaries to his credit, some winning awards from such bodies as the British Medical Association. After the BBC, he wrote on science, technology and medicine for The Sunday Times, Readers Digest, Daily Mail and a wide variety of medical magazines. He is married to the broadcaster and novelist Debbie Rix; they have two grown-up children, three hens and four cats, and live in rural Kent.           To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/309.

Why do certain musty or animalistic aromas, like barnyard or manure, become more acceptable to wine lovers over time? What does minerality really mean when it comes to wine? Why is mouthfeel so important to appreciating wine? How does the colour of wine influence our perception of how it tastes? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Master of Wine, Gus Zhu. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you will a copy of his terrific new book, Behind the Glass: The Chemical and Sensorial Terroir of Wine Tasting. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights Why do certain musty or animalistic aromas, like barnyard or manure, become more acceptable to wine lovers over time? What’s behind the perception of saltiness and minerality in wine? How do we misunderstand sweetness when it comes to wine? Why have we developed more complex perceptions of bitterness, and how does it influence our experience of tannins in wine? Why is mouthfeel so important in wine tasting? How does colour affect our perception of wine? What are the most interesting aspects of oak aging in wine, and why is there so much diversity? Why is it important to embrace sensory differences in wine tasting?   Key Takeaways Gus believes that the wine industry or even the media is trying to promote a certain style of wine and make people believe that many people love wines that have specific smells and taste like barnyard. Gus observes that acidity and minerality are such vague terms and concepts that people in the wine industry discuss. When people say minerality, they may be referring to many different things. Mouthfeel adds several other dimensions to taste, which makes wine tasting even more interesting. When blind tasting, many people depend on smell but he encourages them to pay attention to the textual, tactile sensations from the wine as well. People usually look at the color first because it's straightforward, even though we could see colours a bit differently from each other. Even though we want to be objective, we cannot. We could be even more biased when we see things first. For example, there are already studies showing that if you color white wine as a red wine colour, and ask people to smell it, they came up with all these descriptors that are related to red wines.   About Gus Zhu Gus Zhu is the first Chinese national to become a Master of Wine. He works as a research and development scientist at Harv 81 Group, specializing in chemical analysis and sensory studies of aroma compounds in wine, cork, and oak. Gus holds a Master of Science degree in Viticulture and Enology from UC Davis, which he earned in 2017, and achieved his MW qualification in 2019. In addition to his research in flavor chemistry and sensory science, Gus is a professional wine educator, offering tutorials to wine enthusiasts around the world.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/308.

Can you learn to appreciate aromas such as spice, petrol, and even gamey or foxy notes in wine? And would you want to, or should you? How can you better understand the taste of umami in what you eat and drink? How do culture and lifestyle influence your perception of the aromas and taste of wine? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Master of Wine, Gus Zhu. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights What was the moment Gus realized he wanted to make wine his career? How did it feel to become the first Chinese Master of Wine (MW)? Which aspects of Gus’ multicultural education helped him pass his MW exam on the first try? What is Gus’ book, Behind the Glass, about? What makes Behind the Glass different from other books on wine science? What are chemical terroir and sensorial terroir? What was the most surprising thing Gus learned while researching and writing Behind the Glass? Why is the concept of the “tongue map” wrong, and what do we now know about how our tastebuds work? How can you better understand the taste of umami? Can you learn to appreciate vegetal and herbal aromas in wine? How do terpenes present in wine aromas, and why do people like them? Why might supertasters be at a disadvantage in the modern world? How do culture and lifestyle influence your perception of the aromas and taste of wine?   Key Takeaways As Gus explains, we evolved to reject certain smells for our survival. For example, if a plant or fruit or food smells vegetal, it's a sign of under ripeness so it either doesn’t taste good or isn’t nutritious enough for consumption. In some cases, it could mean that it’s poisonous. So it makes sense then that we may not like vegetal aromas in wine. In Asian countries, Gus says, they have a longer history with fermented food and drink. They also don’t over season or over cook protein dishes so that the taste of umami remains. Umami comes from the amino acids in protein, but we often get confused because we combine our proteins with fat, salt, and other things. If you barbecue a mushroom and don’t season it, the juice or broth released in the little dent in the mushroom is a savory, yummy, umami taste. Gus believes that we should pay more attention to what we eat and drink. He believes that people who like the Chinese experience a more diverse range of flavours and develop a greater appreciation for them. Similarly, we develop a greater vocabulary to express what we’re eating and drinking when we think about it.   About Gus Zhu Gus Zhu is the first Chinese national to become a Master of Wine. He works as a research and development scientist at Harv 81 Group, specializing in chemical analysis and sensory studies of aroma compounds in wine, cork, and oak. Gus holds a Master of Science degree in Viticulture and Enology from UC Davis, which he earned in 2017, and achieved his MW qualification in 2019. In addition to his research in flavor chemistry and sensory science, Gus is a professional wine educator, offering tutorials to wine enthusiasts around the world.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/307.

How far would you go for that first evocative taste of an elusive wine? Why should you try wines and books outside your comfort zone? How is folklore as rooted in a sense of place as much as wine is? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author Jo Penn. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights What’s the significance of terroir and what are the parallels with a writer’s voice? How did Jo make sure to capture the sensory details when writing Blood Vintage? Why does Jo recommend watching the TV show Drops of God? How did Jo weave folklore and pagan rituals into Blood Vintage? What is the genre of "folk horror,” and how does it differ from traditional horror? What was the most difficult part off writing Blood Vintage? Why did Jo decide to launch Blood Vintage through Kickstarter? If Jo could share a bottle of wine with anyone, who would it be, and what wine would they open? Why should you try wines outside your comfort zone?   Key Takeaways As Jo asks, what will we do for that one more taste, especially of your first great wine that turned you on to wine? Some people spend their lives and fortunes chasing after certain tastes, which is why they get suckered into buying fake bottles for hundreds of thousands of dollars. It’s a thin, blurry line between obsession and addiction. Sometimes, it’s not simply the taste that compels us; it’s also the experience of recapturing another time, perhaps with a friend or loved one. Jo is an advocate of encouraging people to try different kinds of wine, without being intimidated by the descriptions that some of us wine writers can use when we get carried away with esoteric or florid prose. Rein it in, Nat! Visiting smaller vineyards is an excellent way to try new wines and to support local winemakers. My advice is parallel to Jo’s when it comes to books. Try something outside your reading genre once in a while. I was pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed her folk horror novel. It expanded my literary taste buds. Jo explains that folklore includes the traditional beliefs, rituals and superstitions connected to a certain area. It's rooted in the community and very much terroir-based, like wine. For example, in her area of England they have the Green Man which is the face of a fertility god covered in vine leaves. It appears in a lot of their cathedrals with the odd juxtaposition of Christianity and ancient fertility god. What connects them is the place.   About Jo Penn Jo Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, travel memoirs, and short stories. She’s also an award-winning podcaster. She has a Master's in Theology from the University of Oxford. Her latest novel is Blood Vintage, a folk horror story set in an English vineyard.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/306.

Why is biodynamic viticulture sometimes associated with dark magic or the occult? Why is using wine in religious rituals as a sacrament considered normal for many people, but taking it beyond that is not? Why are wines from England becoming increasingly popular? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Jo Penn, the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author, about her latest novel, Blood Vintage, set in an English vineyard. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights What were the most memorable aspects of the Pinot Noir tours Jo attended in South Otago while living in New Zealand? Which New Zealand foods pair best with their Pinot Noirs? What is Jo’s new book, Blood Vintage, about? Which wines would Jo and I pair with Blood Vintage? How did Jo find the inspiration for writing Blood Vintage? What’s behind the rise of English wines? How did a high school performance of Euripides' "The Bacchae" influence Jo’s writing of Blood Vintage? What are some of the ways that people can get injured or die working in a vineyard? What did Jo learn about biodynamic winemaking from visiting Limeburn Hill Vineyard? Why is biodynamic winemaking sometimes associated with the occult? How might you experience the differences between the taste of a biodynamic wine versus a conventionally produced wine? What was the most surprising thing Jo learned about winemaking while writing Blood Vintage?   Key Takeaways Jo shares her experience visiting a biodynamic vineyard, where various preparations were made from animal stomachs, intestines, and skulls, as well as plants like Yarrow and chamomile. Some people hear about these practices and think they’re strange. Others view the vineyard as an ecosystem where they’re trying to infuse a sense of place into every single drop of the wine. In both Christianity and Judaism, but taking it further to a different plane of consciousness, like some of the ancient Celtic celebrations tied to nature and fertility she explores in the book, is often considered outside the norm. Climate change has made the south of England similar to the Champagne region in France in terms of the warmth needed to ripen grapes. The UK now produces about 8 to 10 million bottles annually from 800 vineyards. English sparkling wines are winning the awards, and in many blind tastings, they're often placing ahead of French bibblies. Champagne producers are also buying English vineyards.   About Jo Penn Jo Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, travel memoirs, and short stories. She’s also an award-winning podcaster. She has a Master's in Theology from the University of Oxford. Her latest novel is Blood Vintage, a folk horror story set in an English vineyard.         To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/305.

How has Rioja's famous architecture impacted tourism and the international perception of Rioja wines? How does Rioja wine style change in a vintage characterized as an Atlantic year versus a Mediterranean year? How did oak aging become so fundamental to the identity of Rioja wines? What’s driving the resurgence of traditional aging methods, such as concrete tanks? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Adam Lechmere, editor of The Smart Traveler's Wine Guide to Rioja, among other books in this series. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you will win a copy of his terrific new book, Rioja: The Smart Traveller's Wine Guide. To qualify, email me at [email protected] and let me know you've posted a podcast review. I'll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights Where did the Rioja focus on oak aging develop? How do the characteristics imparted by American versus French oak differ? What do you need to know about the classifications and label regulations for Rioja wine? What’s driving the resurgence of older aging methods, such as concrete tanks? How can you differentiate between French Grenache and Spanish Garnacha? What are some of the key distinguishing characteristics between Tempranillo and Cabernet Sauvignon? What makes a great vintage in Rioja? How has Rioja's famous architecture impacted tourism and the international perception of Rioja wines? Which changes does Adam see coming in Rioja's future?   Key Takeaways Rioja wines are categorized according to the time they spend aging in oak barrels. American oak is particularly well suited for the country’s flagship red grape, Tempranillo, because it has a slightly wider grain than French oak, so it imparts more flavors. The resurgence of traditional aging methods, such as concrete tanks, has been driven by changing global trends in wine styles. It's also that Rioja winemakers are forward-looking in their experimentation because they're such pioneers. You'll find more opulence and generosity in a Mediterranean year, whereas Atlantic-influenced years are more precise and slightly less opulent. Rioja's architecture has been so famous for so long that it’s hard to know whether tourists visit primarily because of the architecture or the wine.   About Adam Lechmere Adam Lechmere is the publishing director of Academie du Vin Library, contributing editor to Club Oenologique, and general manager of the Academie du Vin Foundation, a charity dedicated to improving diversity in wine and hospitality worldwide. Formerly editor of Decanter.com, which he launched in 2000, he has been writing about wine for 25 years, contributing to Decanter, World of Fine Wine, Meininger’s, janeanson.com, the Guardian and other publications; at the end of 2018, he launched Club Oenologique.       To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/304.

What makes the Rioja region of Spain a must-visit destination for wine lovers? What are the best food pairings for Rioja wines? What’s the sticky history behind the Battle of Wine festival in La Rioja? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Adam Lechmere, editor of The Smart Traveler's Wine Guide to Rioja, among other books in this series. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Two of you will win a copy of the terrific new book, The Smart Traveller's Wine Guide to Rioja, written by Fintan Kerr and edited by our guest Adam Lechemere. To qualify, email me at [email protected] and let me know you've posted a podcast review. I'll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights What was it like to interview the famous movie director and winery owner Francis Ford Coppola? Are there parallels between the worlds of wine and film? Why did documentary filmmaker Jonathan Nossiter walk out of his interview with Adam? Why was Adam banned twice from Château Latour? What surprising insight did Adam learn while editing The Smart Traveller's Wine Guide to Rioja? How is The Smart Traveler's Wine Guide written especially for wine-interested tourists? What's the biggest misconception people have about Rioja and its wines? Where is Rioja geographically located? What are some of the culinary traditions you can enjoy in Logroño, the capital of La Rioja? Which Rioja and tapas pairings should you try? What’s the history behind the Battle of Wine and El Barrio de la Estación de Haro?   Key Takeaways What they do so brilliantly in Rioja is combine traditional winemaking and outstanding wines with ultra-modern, avant-garde buildings often next door to ancient, gorgeous medieval churches. Lamb and Rioja is a brilliant combination, according to Adam and I agree. The rule of thumb for any wine region is to pair it with the food that's made in the region. What grows together, goes together. When you have lots of anything that is also your livelihood, you celebrate it. The Battle of Wine festival is a series of processions that begins about a week before on the 23rd of June, and it culminates with everybody going up onto the hill to what they call the temple. Like a lot of these festivals, it goes back into the mists of time and people don't know exactly how it started.   About Adam Lechmere Adam Lechmere is the publishing director of Academie du Vin Library, contributing editor to Club Oenologique, and general manager of the Academie du Vin Foundation, a charity dedicated to improving diversity in wine and hospitality worldwide. Formerly editor of Decanter.com, which he launched in 2000, he has been writing about wine for 25 years, contributing to Decanter, World of Fine Wine, Meininger’s, janeanson.com, the Guardian and other publications; at the end of 2018, he launched Club Oenologique.       To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/303.

Why is winemaking always a challenge, no matter how long you’ve been doing it? How are wind machines used to mitigate the negative impact of cold weather? How does Pelee Island’s biodiversity influence the brand and winery? Why is it important for winemakers to respect the natural environment? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Martin Janz, the chief winemaker at Pelee Island Winery in Southwestern Ontario. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Giveaway Three of you will each win a fabulous bottle of LOLA Light Rosé from Pelee Island Winery. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you've posted a review of the podcast. I'll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!   Highlights How did Martin realize he wanted to become a winemaker? What was it like growing up in the family winery and getting involved from a young age? Why did Martin decide to join Pelee Island Winery in Canada, and what has kept him there for 30 years? How does Martin challenge himself as a winemaker after 30 years at Pelee Island Winery? What happens if you don’t take the top off of a steel tank when filtering wine? Why is Pelee Island often overlooked as a wine region when people think about Ontario wines? How does the relatively warmer climate on Pelee Island impact the type and quality of wines produced? Does Pelee Island Winery utilize special strategies to mitigate the cold impact in the winter? How do the the flora and fauna feature on Pelee Island wines? Why it is important for winemakers to respect the natural environment? How did Martin pack so much flavour into Pelee Island Winery LOLA Light Rosé despite it having low alcohol content? Which grapes are blended into LOLA Light Rosé and which foods would pair well with it? What are Martin's top two tips for visitors to Pelee Island and other local wineries? If Martin could share a bottle of wine with anyone, why would he choose Anthony Bourdain and which wine would he choose?   Key Takeaways If you make wine, every year is a challenge. He doesn’t want to follow the same recipe every year to get the exact same product. Every year is a little bit different. Wind machines take the cold air off the floor of the vineyard and then bring in warm air because hot air rises and can actually raise the temperature by two to three degrees. Pelee Island’s labels feature local flora and fauna, reflecting it's rich and unique biodiversity. As a winemaker, Martin believes that it should be an automatic response to respect nature. That’s why they don’t use synthetic insecticides and pesticides.   About Martin Janz Born in Germany, Martin Janz is the esteemed winemaker at Pelee Island Winery & Vineyards Inc., where he combines tradition with innovation to craft exceptional wines. Martin's approach to winemaking is rooted in a profound respect for the terroir of Pelee Island, allowing the unique characteristics of the region's grapes to shine through in every bottle.     To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/302.