Getting Simple

Andy Payne—architect and software developer at McNeel—on Grasshopper 2's latest features. Andy Payne is a licensed architect and software developer at Robert McNeel & Associates, the company behind Rhino and Grasshopper 3D. He is a Doctor of Design graduate from Harvard's Graduate School of Design (2014). Andy has lectured and taught workshops throughout the US, Canada, and Europe, and his work has received awards from several leading academic organizations. Andy has also co-authored several software plugins and desktop apps (including Firefly and Monolith). At McNeel, Andy works on the Grasshopper and Rhino.Compute projects for the Rhino 3D modeling environment. Connect with Andy LIFT Architects Monolith by Andy Payne & Panagiotis Michalatos Firefly by Andy Payne & Jason Kelly Johnson Links Rhinoceros Grasshopper 3D Content Cache component Figurines Shouts Rhino Core-Hour Billing Grasshopper Hops New Grasshopper data types Metafold Monolith Plasticity Blender People mentioned David Rutten · McNeel Kike García · McNeel Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 00:50 · Grasshopper 2 03:03 · Data types 04:44 · Content Cache component 06:35 · Rhino Compute 07:37 · Object attributes 08:36 · New features 08:51 · Shouts 09:50 · Visual diffing and graphics 10:24 · Figurines 11:33 · Installing Grasshopper 2 12:32 · Andy's day-to-day 13:39 · 3D tools I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Andy Payne—architect and software developer at McNeel—on the origins of Grasshopper, Grasshopper 2, Rhino.Compute, teaching, learning to code, generative AI, open-source code, and his journey. Andy Payne is a licensed architect and software developer at Robert McNeel & Associates, the company behind Rhino and Grasshopper 3D. He is a Doctor of Design graduate from Harvard's Graduate School of Design (2014). Andy has lectured and taught workshops throughout the US, Canada, and Europe, and his work has received awards from several leading academic organizations. Andy has also co-authored several software plugins and desktop apps (including Firefly and Monolith). At McNeel, Andy works on the Grasshopper and Rhino.Compute projects for the Rhino 3D modeling environment. Connect with Andy LinkedIn LIFT Architects Monolith by Andy Payne & Panagiotis Michalatos Firefly by Andy Payne & Jason Kelly Johnson Favorite quotes “Nobody wants to spend days and days developing a model. Our job as developers is to make it as easy as possible. […] There’s something about the craft and time you spent developing your ideas into a 3D model. There’s something about that investment that makes it worthwhile. When you have an easy AI button that makes it for you then it trivializes [the process].” —Andy Payne “Originally the product was called Explicit History, because it was a different approach to Rhino's native (implicit) history feature.” —David Rutten Links Rhinoceros Grasshopper 3D Explicit History Form-Z 3ds Max Slow Food Nation Canopy (2008) Grasshopper Primer by Andy Payne & Rajaa Issa Grasshopper Data Trees Rhino.Compute (Source code) Grasshopper Hops New Grasshopper data types Rhino Core-Hour Billing Visual Programming C-Sharp (C#), Visual Basic (VB) & Python Stable Diffusion, DALL-E & Midjourney Nighthawks by Edward Hopper IKEA effect People mentioned Rajaa Issa · McNeel David Rutten · McNeel Jason Kelly Johnson · FUTUREFORMS Daniel Piker Shelby Doyle Edward Hopper Panagiotis Michalatos Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 00:35 · Andy Payne 04:11 · Grasshopper origins 07:23 · Andy meets Grasshopper 09:19 · Grasshopper Primer 10:26 · Grasshopper 1.0 13:22 · Grasshopper 2 15:11 · Developing Grasshopper 16:59 · New data types 18:57 · Rhino Compute & Hops 22:32 · Cloud billing 27:05 · Teaching 30:07 · Visual programming 36:23 · Open source & monetization 42:03 · McNeel Forum 50:07 · Connect with Andy 51:57 · Learning to code 58:00 · Generative AI 01:02:09 · The IKEA effect 01:05:38 · Authorship 01:08:56 · AI trade-offs 01:12:58 · Panagiotis Michalatos 01:16:02 · Advice for young people 01:17:08 · Success 01:18:35 · $100 or less 01:20:12 · Outro I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Thanks to Andrea Villalón Paredes for editing this interview. Sleep and A Loop to Kill For songs by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Ian Keough—CEO and founder of Hypar and the father of Dynamo—on how Hypar is creating the next-generation platform to design, generate, and share buildings, and thoughts on open-source software, visual programming, authorship, monetization, and generative AI. Connect with Ian Hypar Hypar Elements Hypar on Discord Favorite quotes “What would we have to build to have [our new AEC software stack] decoupled from all of the historical and legacy software?” “I just can’t stand toil.” “You don't wanna penalize the customer for using the system more.” Links Revit Tekla AutoCAD PyTorch Unity Dynamo Grasshopper Python and C# IFC OpenAI Codex DALL-E Stable Diffusion GPT Runway ML Gather Visual Studio Code GitHub Copilot NVIDIA’s Omniverse Calendly Zebra G-750 retractable gel metal pen People mentioned Andrew Heumann Matt Campbell Serena Li Chuck Driesler Eric Wassail Eric Bass Anthony Hauck Brian Ringley Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 02:08 · Hypar 12:02 · Hypar Elements 14:11 · Visual programming 16:59 · C Sharp 18:24 · Grasshopper on the cloud 19:57 · Do I need to code? 22:11 · Toil 24:03 · Sharing 26:00 · Authorship and knowledge dissemination 37:16 · Remote work 39:27 · Gather 40:44 · Monetization 48:18 · Advice for young people 49:11 · A $100 purchase 50:47 · Artificial intelligence 53:32 · Sustainability 55:37 · Exercise 57:33 · Generative AI I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Thanks to Andrea Villalón Paredes for editing this interview. Sleep and A Loop to Kill For songs by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Alex O’Connor—researcher and ML manager—on the latest trends of generative AI. Language and image models, prompt engineering, the latent space, fine-tuning, tokenization, textual inversion, adversarial attacks, and more. Alex O’Connor got his PhD in Computer Science from Trinity College, Dublin. He was a postdoctoral researcher and funded investigator for the ADAPT Centre for digital content, at both TCD and later DCU. In 2017, he joined Pivotus, a Fintech startup, as Director of Research. Alex has been Sr Manager for Data Science & Machine Learning at Autodesk for the past few years, leading a team that delivers machine learning for e-commerce, including personalization and natural language processing. Favorite quotes “None of these models can read.” “Art in the future may not be good, but it will be prompt.” Mastodon Books Machine Learning Systems Design by Chip Huyen Hands-On Machine Learning with Scikit-Learn, Keras, and TensorFlow by Aurélien Géron Papers The Illustrated Transformer by Jay Alammar Attention Is All You Need by Google Brain Transformers: a Primer by Justin Seonyong Lee Links Alex in Mastodon ★ Training Dream Booth Multimodal Art on HuggingFace by @akhaliq NeurIPS arxiv.org: Where most papers get published Nono’s Discord Suggestive Drawing: Nono’s master’s thesis Crungus is a fictional character from Stable Diffusion’s latent space Machine learning models Stable Diffusion Arcane Style Stable Diffusion fine-tuned model ★ Imagen DALL-E CLIP GPT and ChatGPT BERT, ALBERT & RoBERTa Bloom word2vec Mupert.ai and Google’s MusicLM t-SNE and UMAP: Dimensionality reduction techniques char-rnn Sites TensorFlow Hub HuggingFace Spaces ★ DreamBooth Jasper AI Midjourney Distill.pub ★ Concepts High-performance computing (HPC) Transformers and Attention Sequence transformers Quadratic growth Super resolution Recurrent neural networks (RNNs) Long short-term memory networks (LSTMs) Gated recurrent units (GRUs) Bayesian classifiers Machine translation Encoder-decoder Gradio Tokenization ★ Embeddings ★ Latent space The distributional hypothesis Textual inversion ★ Pretrained models Zero-shot learning Mercator projection People mentioned Ted Underwood UIUC Chip Huyen Aurélien Géron Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 00:40 · Machine learning 02:36 · Spam and scams 15:57 · Adversarial attacks 20:50 · Deep learning revolution 23:06 · Transformers 31:23 · Language models 37:09 · Zero-shot learning 42:16 · Prompt engineering 43:45 · Training costs and hardware 47:56 · Open contributions 51:26 · BERT and Stable Diffusion 54:42 · Tokenization 59:36 · Latent space 01:05:33 · Ethics 01:10:39 · Fine-tuning and pretrained models 01:18:43 · Textual inversion 01:22:46 · Dimensionality reduction 01:25:21 · Mission 01:27:34 · Advice for beginners 01:30:15 · Books and papers 01:34:17 · The lab notebook 01:44:57 · Thanks I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Thanks to Andrea Villalón Paredes for editing this interview. Sleep and A Loop to Kill For songs by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Zach Kron, senior product manager at Autodesk, on making and selling pen plotter art, evolving with your projects, capturing ideas, and remote work. Zach is a Senior Product Manager at Autodesk, a global provider of design software. Since 2007, Zach has been involved in the research and implementation of digital tools that drive real world building projects and increase the availability of advanced design practices. While his focus is on making software, Zach also participates in teaching, hands-on workshops, hackathons, and all other forms of design technology community development. You can find Zach at Buildz.info. Zach’s Art store Blog First podcast appearance Favorite quotes “The process is fun, and more than the actual editing process is the process of ideating the best workflow that you can get.” —Nono “We aren't really good at having something that you do just for the sake of it. We need to have the side effect.” —Zach “But you have to remember that I didn't have to put on pants today.” —Zach Books Formulations by Andrew Witt Systems Upgrade by Leire Asensio Villoria and David Mah The Information by James Clear Links Pen plotter art Chiaroscuro (art) Dynamo and Revit (software) Adobe Podcast (formerly Project Shasta) In Seth Godin’s words, “funktionlust is a German word that describes the love of doing something merely for the sake of doing it.” Social capital (concept) People mentioned Jose Luis García del Castillo (podcast) Andrew Witt (podcast) Rev Dan Catt (@revdancatt) Dana De Filippi - DanamoBIM Bill Debevc - YouTube channel Seth Godin (author) Steven Pressfield (author) Lex Fridman (podcast) Neil Stephenson (author) Alice Cooper (author) Cal Newport (author) Jeff Koons (artist) Chapters 00:00 · Intro 01:00 · Evolution of this podcast 09:46 · Freediving 12:16 · Capturing ideas 13:25 · People are different in person 15:54 · Evolving with your projects 20:10 · Connecting with your audience 21:20 · Live vs. offline 26:19 · The creative medium 30:00 · Selling art 38:46 · Pen plotter art 46:34 · Making art with Dynamo 50:31 · Art 01:02:53 · Funktionlust 01:05:09 · Remote work 01:11:54 · Outro I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Nono Martínez Alonso shares tips on producing a podcast, building an audience, booking guests, content formats, motivation, and goals. Here's my recent conversation with Steve — who wants to build a YouTube channel about the joy of making and listening to music, emphasizing health and well-being — where I shared tips and insights from five years of podcasting. Links Riverside is the tool I used to record this episode remotely. How to monetize YouTube Perl, Java, and JavaScript are programming languages People mentioned Lex Fridman Tim Ferriss Seth Godin Joe Rogan Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 00:58 · Start 01:55 · Steve's idea 03:45 · Passion for music 04:37 · Podcasting 05:20 · Motivation 08:04 · Recording and editing 09:07 · Guests 11:40 · Building an audience 14:01 · Long-form conversations 15:34 · Process 17:33 · Goals 21:51 · Evergreen content 24:14 · Monetization 25:38 · Start lean 29:30 · Outline 31:59 · First episodes 33:17 · Outro I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Leire Asensio Villoria and David Mah on decoding and upgrading design systems, reverse engineering the creative process, knowledge dissemination, the long tail of niches, Erwin Hauer and associative models, book writing and publishing, and much more. Leire Asensio is a senior lecturer in urban design and architecture and Co-Director of the Advance Digital Design + Fabrication (ADD+F) at the University of Melbourne’s school of design. David Mah is a senior lecturer in urban design and architecture at the University of Melbourne’s school of design. Previously, both Leire and David were lecturers at Harvard’s Graduate School of Design (2010-2017), design research leads for the Health and Places Initiative, a research collaboration that studied the links between the built environment and health outcomes, and taught design and theory at Cornell University’s department of architecture (2006-2010) and Landscape Urbanism at the graduate design school of the Architectural Association in London (2004-2007). Leire and David have worked within several international design practices, including Zaha Hadid Architects, FOA (David), or Arup (Leire), engaging in the design and delivery of urban designs and architectural projects Leire and David have been collaborating as asensio_mah since 2002. They’ve authored the books Systems Upgrade: (Re)fabricating Tectonic Prototypes (2022, Actar) and Lifestyled: Health and Places (2016, Jovis) and have been active in the production of architectural and creative works, exhibited internationally including at the Royal Academy of Art in London and The Storefront for Art and Architecture in New York and featured in professional books and journals published by Birkhauser, Evolo, Lars Muller, Actar and Routledge amongst others. In this episode, we discuss their latest book, Systems Upgrade, which offers a design research approach that leverages the embodied knowledge latent within the material legacies of design history for direct applicability in creative practice. Books Systems Upgrade by Leire Asensio Villoria and David Mah The Long Tail by Chris Anderson Translations from Drawing to Building by Robin Evans Links Suture curve Continua surface Reconstruction of the Dresden cathedral Sagrada Familia Visual programming Grasshopper Dynamo Digital Project The Long Tail by Chris Anderson in WIRED Nike by You Objectile by Bernard Cache and Patrick Beaucé Actar DALL-E by OpenAI Midjourney Stable Diffusion People mentioned Erwin Hauer Enrique Rosado Joseph Albers Sheila Hicks Jørn Utzon Miguel Fisac Buckminster Fuller Eladio Dieste Victor Papanek Antoni Gaudí Chris Anderson Robin Evans Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 00:36 · Erwin Hauer 02:22 · Associative models 04:18 · Erwin Hauer's model making 07:03 · Limitations of digital tools 09:39 · Systems Upgrade book 11:10 · Reverse engineering 26:09 · Decoding Erwin Hauer 30:21 · Authorship and knowledge dissemination 36:48 · Visual programming 41:39 · Selling less of more 46:54 · Individualizing everything 49:23 · Context 53:18 · Book writing and publishing 01:02:49 · Creative process 01:11:13 · AI content generation 01:17:42 · Thanks 01:18:43 · Outro I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Frank Harmon on the purpose of writing and sketching, what makes great writers, artists, and architects, and the importance of giving people a sense of place. Frank Harmon, FAIA, is a nationally renowned award-winning architect, a professor of architecture at NC State University’s College of Design. and a popular mentor to four decades of student architects. A graduate of the Architectural Association in London and a Fellow of the American Institute of Architects, he has also taught at the Architectural Association and has served as a visiting critic at Harvard, the University of Virginia, and Auburn University’s renowned Rural Studio. Among dozens of design awards throughout his career, Frank received AIA NC’s highest honor, the F. Carter Williams Gold Medal, in 2013. Frank is also a published writer and illustrator, using hand-drawn sketches and 200-word essays that consider the relationship between nature and built structures in his online journal Nativeplaces.org. In 2018, ORO Editions published a collection of sketch/essay duos from the journal and Frank's thoughts on the value of drawing in a hardback book entitled Native Places: Drawing as a Way to See. He is currently working on a new book that celebrates the people, places, and stories behind eight of his signature projects. Frank lives in Raleigh in the award-winning modernist house and lush gardens near NCSU that he designed with his late wife, landscape architect Judy Harmon. Favorite quotes “My goal in life is to make short sentences.” “We lost contact with our senses by making everything depend on the visual.” “When we draw, we touch.” “Once we’ve bought into the digital internet world, we’re never going to get rid of it.” “When we make a place [we should make it] situated in its place so that we've got something physical and concrete that grounds us in an otherwise unlimited digital world.” “Genius is the ability to recall your childhood at any time.” —Baudelaire Books Native Places: Drawing as a Way to See by Frank Harmon The Eyes of the Skin: Architecture and the Senses by Juhani Pallasmaa Links Frank’s Instagram Native Places blog by Frank Harmon Frank’s Drawing as a Way to See talk at Clark Nexsen (2019) Frank’s Heritage talk at Creative Mornings Raleigh (2014) Less is Love by Frank Harmon People mentioned Ernest Hemingway Joan Didion C. S. Forester Tadao Ando Kevin Carl - Child psychologist, friend Pablo Picasso Henry David Thoureau - “ Every child discovers the world anew.” Peter Zumthor Jordan Gray (podcast) Charles Baudelaire - “[G]enius is nothing more nor less than childhood recovered at will.” William Shakespeare Alice Munro - Canadian short story writer, Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 Marlon Blackwell William Faulkner - American writer Glenn Murcutt Tom Kundig Ted Flato Rick Joy - Studio Rick Joy Brigitte Shim - Shim-Sutcliffe Architects Brian MacKay-Lyons Patricia and John Patkau - Patkau Architects Larry Scarpa Frank Gehry James Monroe Henry Woodhead Mies van der Rohe Tadao Ando Le Corbusier Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 01:14 · Writing 05:00 · Becoming an architect 06:21 · Frank's book 07:19 · Living in London 09:03 · Studying abroad in the US 13:37 · Childhood place 20:38 · Born with screens 23:39 · Design 27:42 · Place 33:41 · Good architecture 37:10 · Bad architecture 38:48 · Frank Gehry's middle finger 39:31 · Native Places: Drawing as a Way to See 43:47 · The best way to write 44:23 · The purpose of sketching 45:45 · Thanks 46:09 · Outro I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Experiments with OpenAI’s text-to-image generation AI system DALL-E 2, mini-essays on the creative process and being done, and blogging tools you can use. Links DALL-E 2, Explained by Nono (video) Variations of "A minimalist 3d render of a balloon car" plus "A sunflower" by Edward Hopper by Nono x DALL-E OpenAI’s DALL-E 2 publication Google Imagen: Text-to-Image Diffusion Models Google Parti: Pathways Autoregressive Text-to-Image Model The meaning of done (post) If it's not fun, you shouldn't do it (post) Another one of those (post) Folio: Nono’s content management system Substack, Twitter Writer & Medium (blogging platforms) Ghost, WordPress, Jekyll, Hugo & Next.js (blogging frameworks) Nono’s sketches and stories YouTube channel Books Principles: Life and Work by Ray Dalio People mentioned Frank Harmon Ray Dalio Chapters 00:00 · Introduction 00:39 · An incoming conversation with Frank Harmon 01:34 · Episode contents 01:55 · DALL-E 2 and AI systems 06:45 · What can DALL-E do? 09:54 · GPT-3: Language models 12:05 · Mini-Essays on the creative process 12:15 · Mini-Essay: The meaning of done 13:38 · Mini-Essay: If it's no fun, you shouldn't do it 15:33 · Mini-Essay: Another one of those 16:51 · Writing series 17:51 · What does Nono use for blogging? 22:45 · Outro I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso

Thoughts on traveling and meeting people in person after the COVID-19 pandemic. Favorite quotes "You can do anything that you set your mind to, but you don't have time to do everything.” —Frank Harmon Links It’s nice to see you, in person (post) Back from Atlanta (post) Nono’s blog Nono’s sketches and stories YouTube channel Kean Walmsley’s blog post A.I. Artificial Intelligence by Steven Spielberg (movie) Has the Pandemic Transformed the Office Forever? by John Seabrook for The New Yorker Books Formulations by Andrew Witt People mentioned Andrew Witt Frank Harmon David Allen Satya Nadella Chapters 00:00 · Start 00:10 · It's Nice to See You, In Person 06:05 · Back from Atlanta 07:34 · Podcast updates I'd love to hear from you. Submit a question about this or any previous episodes. Join the Discord community. Meet other curious minds. If you enjoy the show, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds and really helps. Show notes, transcripts, and past episodes at gettingsimple.com/podcast. Theme song Sleep by Steve Combs under CC BY 4.0. Follow Nono Twitter.com/nonoesp Instagram.com/nonoesp Facebook.com/nonomartinezalonso YouTube.com/nonomartinezalonso