Ordinary Discussions with Jeremy McCommons

How do you measure discipleship in your church? Only 15% of pastors say they have both a reproducible disciple-making model and a way to measure it. Studied independently, fewer than 5% actually do. (Discipleship.org and Barna national study). Attendance, giving, volunteers, and the percent of people in small groups are easy to count. None of them tell you whether anyone is actually growing as a disciple, or making one.In this episode, Jeremy McCommons and Alex Rossie walk through why the standard church scorecard misses the mark, what the research says about the gap between what churches report and what they produce, and a practical framework for measuring the thing churches say matters most. It's for pastors and for the church member who wants a better conversation with their leadership. Keep measuring what you measure now. Add what's missing.What you'll learn:- Why "30% in small groups" became the benchmark, and why it is not a discipleship metric (from a former small groups pastor)- What the Willow Creek Reveal study found: the most involved members felt the most spiritually underchallenged- The Nordstrom principle from Mission Drift: measure what you say matters most, even when it's fuzzy- Five areas to measure instead: identity, formation, practice, investment, multiplication- Six metric swaps you can start tracking this year- The two things you'll need to make this work: a feedback system and distributed leadersFREE GUIDE: Measuring Discipleship in Your Church. What churches commonly measure, and the questions to ask instead.[ https://ordinarymovement.com/s/Measuring-Discipleship-Guide.pdf ]Chapters:0:00 Why growth without discipleship is missing the mark0:31 What most churches measure instead of discipleship1:44 What the research shows: fewer than 5% of churches reproduce disciples3:08 Who this episode is for, and a word of grace to pastors 5:55 How pastors answer "how do you measure discipleship?"8:03 Why 30% in small groups is not a discipleship metric12:57 A former small groups pastor on the 30% benchmark14:12 Attendance is a measurement, not the measurement16:16 Measure what matters most: the Nordstrom principle from Mission Drift18:59 About Ordinary Movement (break)20:02 Five areas to measure discipleship: identity, formation, practice, investment, multiplication22:55 The Willow Creek Reveal study25:53 Busy, involved, and spiritually empty: Jeremy's story28:50 Leadership pipelines vs. discipleship pathways30:47 Leadership development is not discipleship35:15 Keep what works, add what's missing38:06 Six church metrics to swap40:40 How to collect discipleship data: feedback systems and distributed leaders42:39 Where to start as a church leader46:45 Next episode: your discipleship questions answeredMentioned in this episode:- Previous episode, What Discipleship Is (and Isn't): [ https://youtu.be/lS35zpEsmc0 ]- Our conversation with Peter Greer on Mission Drift: [ https://youtu.be/PYrJEG9X944 ]- Church discipleship statistics and research: https://ordinarymovement.com/library/church-stats- National Study on Disciple Making in USA Churches (Discipleship.org, Exponential, Grey Matter Research)- Mission Drift by Peter Greer and Chris Horst- Next Wave by Steve Pike- Contagious Disciple Making by David Watson and Paul Watson- Jeremy's book, coming January: [ https://keap.app/contact-us/1336382756194089 ]Have a question about discipleship or how groups work? Leave it in the comments. Jeremy McCommons, Emily Webb, and Alex Rossie are answering common questions on an upcoming episode.About Ordinary MovementOrdinary Movement is a free discipleship process led by ordinary men and women in small groups across 35+ states. No seminary required. The goal is disciples who make disciples. Start here: https://ordinarymovement.com#discipleship #churchleadership #smallgroups #disciplemaking #pastors

Discipleship is the most-used word in the church right now, and almost no one can define it. Most of what we call discipleship isn't. It's a good thing that got mistaken for the whole thing. Bible study, Sunday attendance, serving, a powerful moment at a conference. All real. None of them, on their own, is discipleship.Jeremy and Alex walk through the activities churches most often confuse with discipleship and explain what each one actually is: a piece, a vehicle, a starting point, but not the destination. Then they give you the definition that ties it together, so you can tell the difference in your own group.In this episode:• A plain definition of "disciple" and "discipleship" you can put on the wall and use this week• Why a missing definition quietly sets your whole group off course• The ownership principle, and the underground-church story behind it• What discipleship is not, and why good things like Bible study get mistaken for itWant a free, proven process for making disciples who make disciples? Start at ordinarymovement.com.Ordinary Movement is a discipleship platform that equips men and women to be disciples who make disciples. Our focus is on supporting small groups led by ordinary/everyday Christians. We have specialized discipleship tracks that center around Intimacy with Jesus, Intentional Relationships, and Multiplication. Groups are designed for individuals to easily engage in leading groups.Ready to be a disciple who makes disciples?If so, come and join us!Visit ordinarymovement.com to learn more!#discipleship #disciplemaking #disciple

He gave his life to Jesus on a mountaintop in 1971 — and he's been reproducing his faith every single year since. He's in his 70s now. An auto mechanic by trade. No seminary, no title, no platform. And he has no intention of slowing down.I didn't sit down with Jim Albert to teach. I sat down to get challenged — and to learn from a man who's been making disciples longer than I've been alive.Jim spent the Cold War running missions out of Vienna into the Eastern Bloc. Today he's leading men into the hardest-to-reach places in India and discipling guys one-on-one in a Fredericksburg coffee shop. We talked about why discipleship is simple but not easy, the difference between making Jesus your Savior and your Lord, the "ABCs" of a quiet time he learned 50 years ago, why so many churches keep majoring on the minors — and the one verb in the Great Commission that most of them quietly ignore.If you've ever felt too unqualified, too under schooled, or too far along in life to make disciples — Jim is living proof that's a lie. This is exactly the kind of ordinary man this whole thing is for.

Jason Shepperd built a megachurch that has no small groups. Instead, more than 4,000 people across Houston meet weekly in dozens of house churches, each one led by an unpaid lay pastor with a day job: firefighters, business owners, real estate guys doing the actual pastoral work of the church. He calls it "a church of house churches" and it might be the most unusual functioning church structure in America.In this conversation, Jason sits down with Jeremy McCommons and Alex Rossie to break down how the model actually works, why he believes the traditional church model is broken, and what he learned reading the New Testament that he couldn't unsee.We get into:- Why a house church is fundamentally different from a small group- How lay pastors (firefighters, business owners, real estate guys) do the actual pastoring- Why Church Project runs on one-quarter the staff of a typical megachurch its size- Why Jason refuses to call this a "model he invented" and what he means by eDNA- How Church Project gives away nearly half its operating budget every year- Why most church buildings are bad stewardship (and how Church Project's building pays for itself)- The "three D's" that hold the whole structure together- What Jason would say to a 35-year-old church planter who's tired of the traditional modelIf you're a pastor, a small group leader, a church planter, or someone who's quietly wondering whether there's a better way to do church, this one is for you.⏱️ Timestamps:0:00 The stewardship of space and spiritual gifts1:15 Meet Jason Shepperd and Church Project3:30 What is the church, actually?8:45 Why Jason started Church Project12:10 What eDNA means and why it matters16:20 House church vs. small group: the real difference22:00 The three D's: distributed, decentralized, diverse28:40 Sunday gatherings without centralization33:15 What Jason says to pastors considering this model39:00 How Church Project handles finances44:30 Why most church buildings are bad stewardship49:00 Pirates and cruise ships: how to build without tearing down🔗 Resources:Jason Shepperd's site: https://jasonshepperd.comChurch Project Network: https://churchprojectnetwork.com"A Church of House Churches" by Jason Shepperd (book, available on Amazon)"Rethink & Return" podcast by Jason Shepperd📍 About Ordinary Movement:We help ordinary believers become disciples who make disciples. Free training, a simple discipleship process, and a global community of leaders. Start a group at https://ordinarymovement.com#HouseChurch #ChurchModel #ChurchPlanting #Discipleship #SmallGroups #ChurchLeadership

Most Christians live with one foot in the world and one foot in church.That's how Matt described his first six years following Jesus. Saved at Texas A&M in 2015. Faithful on Sundays. Attending some small groups.Then he was invited to a discipleship group. Not another Bible study. A discipleship group. He didn't know what the word meant. He showed up anyway.This week's episode is his story.Matt is a Navy officer now stationed in Jacksonville. He went through OM in Virginia, got baptized in January 2023, moved to a new state with no group and no people, launched a Bible study, and then launched an OM group last year.A few things in this conversation worth your time:→ Why six years of church attendance didn't move him much→ The moment a leader called on him to pray and the floor dropped out→ Why a regular Bible study didn't get the buy-in he was looking for→ What changed in his growth when he stopped participating and started leading→ What he'd say to the version of himself who was still on the sidelinesIf you've ever sat in church for years and quietly wondered if there was supposed to be more — this one is for you. If you know someone who has, send it to them.

Most Christians feel stuck — reading, attending, doing all the right things, and still not actually changing. Jamie Winship calls it "The Primer Problem." And it's not about your effort. It's about your identity.Jamie Winship is a former FBI agent and founder of Identity Exchange who spent years working in high-stakes conflict zones across the Middle East — including raising his family in Baghdad. What he discovered about why people don't change applies directly to why most discipleship doesn't work.In this conversation, Jamie breaks down:- Why discipleship built on "sin management" fails — and what Jesus was actually doing with the disciples- The Primer Problem: why behavior change doesn't stick when identity hasn't been addressed first- The difference between Empire thinking and Kingdom thinking — and how to spot which one you're living in- Why "I'm stuck" is a lie, and what's actually going on beneath it- What confession really is (hint: it's not an apology)- How to hear from God — the four-stage Abiding practice (Attention, Awareness, Annunciation, Action)- The difference between performing peace and becoming a person of peace- A daily practice for moving out of fear and into who God says you areStart your own discipleship group → ordinarymovement.comLearn more about Jamie's work → identityexchange.com---TIMESTAMPS0:00 — Intro1:22 — Empire vs. Kingdom: The Big Problem6:40 — Why there are no movements of God in American cities10:45 — The lie of scarcity — and how it runs Christian life15:10 — Why you're not actually stuck (you're afraid)20:30 — What Jesus was really doing with the disciples26:00 — Produce vs. Become — what discipleship gets wrong33:15 — The Primer Problem: why behavior change doesn't stick38:00 — Identity: what God says about you vs. what the empire says40:20 — How to hear from God — the Abiding framework47:00 — Confession as truth-telling: Peter's story52:30 — Performing peace vs. being peace55:00 — Fear as a sensor — the daily practice57:00 — Where to go deeper---About Ordinary Movement:We've walked 1,600+ people through a discipleship process across 245 groups in 35 states. OM exists to help ordinary men and women become disciples who make disciples — no seminary required. Learn more at ordinarymovement.com.Ordinary Movement is a discipleship platform that equips men and women to be disciples who make disciples. Our focus is on supporting small groups led by ordinary/everyday Christians. We have specialized discipleship tracks that center around Intimacy with Jesus, Intentional Relationships, and Multiplication. Groups are designed for individuals to easily engage in leading groups.Ready to be a disciple who makes disciples?If so, come and join us!Visit ordinarymovement.com to learn more!#discipleship #disciplemaking #disciple

Women's small group producing fellowship but no disciples? This episode breaks down exactly why — and what a group that actually multiplies looks like.Most women's small groups are good at community. They're good at getting through a curriculum. What they rarely produce is women who go out and disciple other women. The problem isn't the heart. It's the model.In this episode with Emily W., Director of Women at Ordinary Movement:→ Why most women's small groups stay surface level — and what it takes to go deeper→ Why answering workbook questions isn't the same as growing in your faith→ Why intimacy with Jesus has to be the foundation — not just a session topic→ What intentional relationships actually look like outside the weekly meeting→ Why a semester isn't long enough — and what a year together changes→ How to shift from leading a group to raising up the next generation of leaders→ How to train women to facilitate and lead — without making it a formal class→ What a women's discipleship group should look like at the end — a send, not a restartIf you're leading a women's small group, running a women's ministry, or tired of watching women go through study after study without stepping into their calling as disciple-makers — this is where to start.🔗 Start a free women's discipleship group: ordinarymovement.com/womens-discipleship🔗 Free leader training (45 min): ordinarymovement.com/app-intro🔗 Church discipleship research: ordinarymovement.com/library/church-stats0:00 Women's Small Group — Why It's Not Making Disciples2:30 What's Wrong With Most Women's Small Groups7:00 The Knowledge Acquisition Loop — Why Women Stay Stuck12:00 Consumer Christianity and the Women's Discipleship Problem17:00 Why Intimacy With Jesus Has to Come First23:00 Intentional Relationships — What Life Together Actually Looks Like29:00 Women's Small Group vs. Women's Discipleship — The Real Difference35:00 Why You Can't Microwave Discipleship — The Semester Problem42:00 How to Lead a Women's Discipleship Group Week to Week50:00 How to Train Women to Lead Their Own Groups56:00 The Send — How a Women's Discipleship Group Should End1:02:00 Start a Free Women's Discipleship Group#womensdiscipleship #womenssmalLgroup #discipleshipgroups

Men's Bible study producing good conversation but no disciples? This episode breaks down exactly why — and what a group that actually multiplies looks like.Most men's groups are stuck in what David Watson calls the "knowledge acquisition loop" — curriculum after curriculum, semester after semester, with men who know more about God but never actually go make disciples. The problem isn't the men. It's the model.In this episode:→ Why most men's Bible studies create informed men — not disciple-makers→ The knowledge acquisition loop — and why it's not the men's fault→ Why intimacy with Jesus has to come before multiplication (and what that actually means)→ The 3 values that separate a Bible study from a discipleship group→ High challenge, high grace — the culture that changes everything→ How to recruit 3–8 men and have the first honest conversation→ What the group looks like week to week — and how the D-Square works→ Why the end of the group is a send, not a graduation — and what comes nextIf you're leading a men's group, thinking about starting one, or tired of watching men go through study after study without becoming disciple-makers — this is the conversation you've been waiting for.🔗 Start a free men's discipleship group: ordinarymovement.com/mens-discipleship🔗 Free leader training (45 min): ordinarymovement.com/app-intro🔗 Church discipleship research: ordinarymovement.com/library/church-stats0:00 Men's Bible Study — Why It's Not Making Disciples2:30 What's Wrong With Most Men's Bible Studies8:00 The Knowledge Acquisition Loop — Why Men Stay Stuck14:00 Consumer Christianity — How It Killed Discipleship20:00 Men's Bible Study vs. Discipleship Group — The Real Difference26:00 How to Start a Men's Discipleship Group — The 3 Core Values34:00 Why Intimacy With Jesus Has to Come First40:00 You Can't Microwave Discipleship — The Brisket Analogy48:00 How to Start a Men's Discipleship Group — Who to Invite54:00 Why Men Need a Real Challenge — The Marine Recruiter Story58:00 How to Lead a Men's Discipleship Group Week to Week1:02:00 How to Train Men to Lead Their Own Group1:05:00 The Send — How a Men's Discipleship Group Should End1:07:00 Start a Free Men's Discipleship Group#mensbiblestudy #mensdiscipleship #discipleshipgroups

Most people don't wake up and decide to abandon their mission—it happens through a series of small, unchecked decisions.Becca Spradlin (On Mission Advisors) joins the podcast to reveal why even the best intentions aren't enough to keep you on track. Whether you are leading a multi-million dollar business, a local church, or your own family, these principles are invaluable for staying true to what God has called you to do.Watch to discover:The difference between changing your "method" and changing your "mission."Why the most dangerous tool of the enemy is making you think you aren't the problem.How to build "guardrails" into your life and leadership.Her book, Lead On Mission: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DL4F6P99Her website: https://onmissionadvisors.com/Ordinary Movement is a discipleship platform that equips men and women to be disciples who make disciples. Our focus is on supporting small groups led by ordinary/everyday Christians. We have specialized discipleship tracks that center around Intimacy with Jesus, Intentional Relationships, and Multiplication. Groups are designed for individuals to easily engage in leading groups.Ready to be a disciple who makes disciples?If so, come and join us!Visit ordinarymovement.com to learn more!#discipleship #disciplemaking #disciple

It happens slowly. Then all at once. Small compromises. Quiet trade-offs. One day you wake up and realize your life, your leadership, or your organization has drifted from what it was supposed to be about. The mission that once drove everything is now just words on a wall.Peter Greer wrote the book on it — literally. In How Leaders Lose Their Way, he unpacks why drift is the default and what it takes to stay anchored. Peter is President & CEO of HOPE International and has spent years helping leaders finish well — personally and organizationally.In this conversation, we unpack:→ What personal and organizational drift actually looks like (and why it's so hard to spot)→ The difference between "resume virtues" and "eulogy virtues"→ Why Peter writes his eulogy every year — and how it recalibrates everything→ The dangers of success, speed, and isolation→ Why you need friends who love you enough to tell you the truth→ How good organizations lose their mission — and why growth can't be the ultimate goal→ Practical guardrails you can put in place this weekIf you want to finish well, this conversation will show you how to fight the current.—📘 How Leaders Lose Their Way by Peter Greer: https://a.co/d/aJKWKUE📘 Mission Drift by Peter Greer: https://www.amazon.com/Mission-Drift-Unspoken-Organizations-Believe/dp/0764211641🔗 HOPE International: https://www.hopeinternational.org—About Peter Greer:Peter Greer is President & CEO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered microfinance organization. He's the author of several books including Mission Drift, The Spiritual Danger of Doing Good, and Rooting for Rivals.Ordinary Movement is a discipleship platform that equips men and women to be disciples who make disciples. Our focus is on supporting small groups led by ordinary/everyday Christians. We have specialized discipleship tracks that center around Intimacy with Jesus, Intentional Relationships, and Multiplication. Groups are designed for individuals to easily engage in leading groups.Ready to be a disciple who makes disciples?If so, come and join us!Visit ordinarymovement.com to learn more!#discipleship #disciplemaking #disciple