Episode 55: Strategies for Building Buy-In for Legal Design with Anna Posthumus Meyjes

Many contracts can be really complicated, especially the ones used in industries like construction. They are known to be long and complex, making them difficult to understand and comply with. These contracts are often designed by a lawyer for another lawyer, with potential disputes in mind. This kind of contracting doesn't really support the end user in their daily activities so it's time to make changes! The field of contract design is dedicated to transforming these kinds of risk-averse and lawyer-centric contracting practices. It promotes a more proactive and user-centric approach to contracting where contracts are perceived not just as something to be shoved in the drawer, but rather as tools that can guide, support and empower the businesses. In this episode we meet with Sarah Fox, a contract simplification specialist and the creator of the 500 word contract. Having decades of experience as a construction lawyer, Sarah knows how bad contracts can cost time, money, deals and relationships. With her simplified contract design model she advocates for more meaningful and user-friendly contracts that help streamline deals, enhance customer relations, and still keep everyone protected. Sarah shares with us how she came up with the idea of the 500 word contract and what kind of feedback she has since received from users and other lawyers. We also hear her tips for contract simplification and how to use them in redesigning other types of legal information as well. And of course, we also discuss the future of contract design with AI. Tune in to hear more! In this episode we meet with Sarah Fox, a contract simplification specialist and the creator of the 500 word contract. Sarah shares with us how she came up with the idea of the 500 word contract and what kind of feedback she has since received from users and other lawyers. We also hear her tips for contract simplification and how to use them in redesigning other types of legal information as well. And of course, we also discuss the future of contract design with AI. Tune in to hear more! Sarah Fox is a recovering lawyer transforming the way people do business. After decades dealing with huge deals in the construction sector, she realised that long, complex and bad contracts were costing time, money, deals and relationships. And after all that, they were usually just shoved in a drawer! There was a better way. Now Sarah advocates for short, simple contracts of less than 500 words. And delivers keynotes that inspire people across industry how to streamline deals and enhance customer relations with contracts that represent their values, embed trust, and keep everyone protected.

The ability to tell stories is what distinguishes us humans from other living creatures. We think, remember and pass on information in the form of storytelling. It’s no wonder, then, that storytelling is also a powerful method in design. It helps make sense of the world, empathize with different perspectives and simplify complexity. Law and legal work are no exceptions, as legal professionals benefit from good storytelling skills too. In the context of law and legal design, storytelling can help make people’s experiences of the law and justice visible and relatable, and help understand what measures are needed to fill gaps in the legal system.   In this episode we deep dive into the world of storytelling with Senior Design Strategist Emily MacLoud and Principal Design Strategist Luke Thomas, both at Portable. Portable is an Australian-based design agency specialized in using design and technology to create positive impact in areas like justice, public sector, mental health and more. With Emily and Luke, we discuss the elements of a good story and how to craft one for the purposes of legal storytelling. Emily and Luke also share their insights on using design tools like user journey maps in story building, and how to address sensitive topics in law with storytelling.   But does a story need to have a happy ending? And who is Becky, and what does she use storytelling for? Tune in to find out.

The majority of people in need of legal help do not turn to formal legal services, such as going to court. Research indicates that this is a global phenomenon: those who seek to solve their legal problems often turn to their social circles and other informal sources of information instead. By doing so, people look for advice that is precise, tested, and socially approved, making it relevant and practical for their own personal situation. However, many legal innovation efforts seem to be focused on fine-tuning and polishing formal legal services, with fewer solutions aligning with how people really want and need their justice problems solved.  But how can we fill the 'engagement gap' between people and the legal system? What exactly does being people-centered entail? What should we pay attention to when seeking more systemic changes in law and access to justice? In this episode, we discuss these questions with the inspiring Zainab Malik, Senior Justice Sector Advisor at The Hague Institute for Innovation of Law (HiiL) and the leader of the Justice Innovation Labs. Zainab introduces us with case examples of HiiL's projects in Tunisia, Uganda, and Nigeria, alongside her insights into creating an enabling environment for legal innovation. We also discuss the role of technology in improving access to justice. Is it sensible to digitalize court services or make legal help apps when people lack access to basic commodities, such as mobile phones or electricity?

In this episode we venture one of the most classical examples of automating legal processes and talk about document automation. We are joined by the notorious guru of this field, Catherine Bamford of Bamlegal. Catherine shares with us her career story and what insights she has gained on her transformation journey from a lawyer to a legal engineer. We also hear why she is so passionate about document automation and what are the benefits for it. With over a decade of experience in digitalizing legal work, she tells her secrets on what to do and what to avoid in automation projects. We also learn why organizations should create and maintain contract playbooks. We won't miss the discussion on the role of AI and GPT tools in document automation either. Catherine explains whether human-made templates are still needed in the era of AI, or should we concentrate on prompting and training AI tools to raise ourselves to the next level in document drafting. We also hear how Catherine views the general impact of technology on legal work over the past decades. Has there been any significant milestones yet? Or are we lawyers still working like it was the 1970's?

We kick off the new season with Dan Riley and J.P. Rossi from Resol-VR. Resol-VR is an innovative tech company specialized in creating immersive and interactive solutions for the legal, insurance and law enforcement sector. We discuss how virtual reality can be used in various legal contexts, such as for presenting evidence at court or examining different scenarios for crime investigation. As we learn from Dan and J.P., virtual reality can be a particularly powerful tool when it comes to improving access to justice. Virtual courts or data visualizations not only make law and justice more accessible, but also enable new forms of collaboration and transparency, and help reduce the costs of dispute resolution. Importantly, virtual reality can also make us more empathetic. With immersive visualizations we can step into the shoes of “the other”, and experience events for example from the perspective of a physically impaired person. While the benefits of using virtual reality in the legal context become evident, there are also some concerns related to its reliability. Just like any data, also the data used for virtual reality simulations can be biased or flawed. How do we ensure that the visualizations convey the information as truthfully as possible? Are there some quality metrics for the safe use of virtual reality? We also discuss the threats and possibilities of AI in creating virtual reality content. But if courts become more virtual, do we lose an element of human connection in turn? And further, is there a risk virtual reality makes court proceedings too theatrical?  Listen to the episode to hear how Dan and J.P. respond to our queries.  

This is a Legal Design Podcast special episode in Finnish - dedicated to Finnish folks interested in legal design. But no worries our English speaking friends! We will be back with a new season starting in January 2024. *** Tässä podcast-sarjamme erikoisjaksossa keskustelemme legal designista, eli suomeksi oikeusmuotoilusta, kolmen suomalaisen legal design -pioneerin kanssa. Vierainamme ovat ennakoivan sopimisen ja sopimusmuotoilun uranuurtaja, Lapin yliopiston työelämäprofessori sekä Vaasan yliopiston yliopistotutkija Helena Haapio, Laurea Ammattikorkeakoulun oikeusmuotoilu-koulutusohjelman isä Jukka Linna sekä Juristin muotoilukoulun perustaja Hannele Korhonen.    Keskustelemme vieraidemme kanssa erityisesti oikeusmuotoilun taustasta ja tulevaisuudesta Suomessa. Helena kertoo miten kotimaisen ennakoivan oikeuden ja ennakoivan sopimisen 25-vuotinen tutkimus on osaltaan vaikuttanut oikeusmuotoiluilmiön syntyyn, ja Jukka avaa maailman ensimmäisen oikeusmuotoilun maisteritason koulutusohjelman, eli Laurea ammattikorkeakoulun oikeusmuotoilun ja oikeudellisen erityisosaamisen YAMK-koulutuksen alkutaivalta. Hannele kertoo puolestaan miten Juristin muotoilukoulu sai alkunsa ja millaisten muotoiluprojektien parissa hän on saanut työskennellä. Kuulemme myös miten vieraamme selittäisivät oikeusmuotoilun merkityksen kuuluisalle Pihtiputaan mummolle, sekä pohdimme kuka voi kutsua itseään oikeusmuotoilijaksi. Visioimme lopuksi oikeusmuotoilun tulevaisuutta suomalaisena vientituotteena. Miten oikeusmuotoilu onnistuu tekoälyn kanssa? Entä onko oikeusmuotoilusta apua ihmiskuntaa koettelevien isojen kysymysten, kuten ilmastonmuutoksen, ratkaisemisessa?

Time for our season finale dear listeners! We are joined by Isabelle Engelhard and Elisa Ensmenger to talk about how to design technology-led future proof legal department. Isabelle and and Elisa both work at We Are Era, a media company and they have recently started their legal transformation journey with implementing a Contract Lifecycle Management (CLM) System. Are you tired of drowning in a sea of contracts, struggling to keep track of important deadlines and obligations? Do you find yourself lost in a maze of paperwork, wasting valuable time and resources? Join us as we explore the benefits of implementing a CLM system with Isabelle and Elisa and discover how it can revolutionize the way you manage your contracts. You will gain valuable insights from their experiences, lessons learned, and best practices. Get inspired by their journey and learn how to unlock the full potential of your own CLM system. Whether you're a contract manager, legal professional, or business owner, this podcast episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to revolutionize their contract management practices. In addition, we also talk about starting law careers after law school and give tips to recent graduates. Isabelle and Elisa share their stories and experiences working as a lawyer in creative spaces with artists, social media influencers and their agents. This episode was made in collaboration with Presicely the user-friendly platform for enterprise contract management. Check out their offer for our listeners: Free contracting assessment - Precisely (preciselycontracts.com) -- Isabelle Engelhard is a German qualified lawyer working in-house as a Legal Counsel at We Are Era since 2020. Alongside her traditional law studies to become admitted to the German bar, she also holds a LL.B. degree focusing on in-house counseling from the University of Mannheim, Germany and a LL.M. degree in Intellectual Property Law from Cardozo Law School in New York City, USA. As Legal Counsel at We Are Era she advises all non-legal departments as well as management in all legal matters arising from the company’s business units, including the legal areas of Contract Law, IP and Copyright Law as well as Data Privacy Law, Employment Law and Corporate Law. In the past 2 years she has also focused on the topics of Legal Tech and Legal Design and together with her colleague Elisa just recently implemented the company’s first CLM System to improve the internal workflows and to make the interdisciplinary work between the legal and non-legal departments even more efficient and legally secure, all in favor of the company’s big portfolio of clients. Elisa Ensmenger is a German jurist working in-house alongside Isabelle as a Legal/Contract Manager at We Are Era. She holds a LL.B. degree with a focus on Intellectual Property Law from Humboldt-University Berlin and a LL.M. degree with a concentration in Arts, Sports and Entertainment Law from Penn State Law at the Pennsylvania State University, USA. She has joined Isabelle in 2022 and this is actually Elisa’s first job out of law school. We Are Era caught her eye because Penn State’s motto is “We Are!”, so when she saw the job ad from We Are Era, she felt like this was the perfect job match for a Penn State alum – and she was right! Besides the various exciting topics that they cover on a day to day basis, one of the most exciting ones is implementing the company’s first CLM System.

This week we team up with the energetic legal tech guru Maya Markovich who is now focusing on Justice Tech. Justice Tech is innovative technology designed to improve access to one’s legal rights, improve outcomes for justice-involved individuals, or more equitably administer a legal system. Maya has extensive experience in legal tech and now she's working as an excutive director for Justice Tech Association supporting companies and programs that create technology solutions helping people navigate legal matters to foster hope, independence, and self-empowerment to contribute to a fairer legal system. We talk about justice tech having an impact on access to justice but since access to justice is not a technology, but a systemic problem, we also concentrate on what else could we do as a society. We also discuss AI and legal tech in general. Just recently Henna met with some law students and learned that the generation we believed was born to use technology is really questioning whether or not there will be entry level legal jobs in the future (Yes, there will!). We asked Maya's opinion about this and discussed the future of legal. Maya also shares her experience in participating the "90 day Finn Program" and how to survive the Helsinki November with all the seasons in just one month. -- With her unique background spanning VC, law, behavioral science, and change design, Maya Markovich delivers technology, process, and business growth services worldwide. For nearly 6 years she launched and scaled industry-first Nextlaw Labs/Nextlaw Ventures at Dentons, the world's largest firm, delivering next-generation technology, process client and business growth services across the globe. Maya is currently justice tech executive in residence at Village Capital and executive director at the nonprofit Justice Technology Association. She also advises multiple high-growth startups, investor and venture funds, and consults on legal department and law firm innovation and transformation initiatives, building future-proof methodologies and tech to advance the legal industry, its clients and consumers via achievable, sustainable and scalable design and implementation.  In 2020 Maya was named one of five “Influential Women of Legal Tech” by ILTA, a “Woman Leading Legal Tech” by The Technolawgist in 2019, and an ABA Legal Technology Resource Center “Woman of Legal Tech 2018” for her work in designing, promoting, and driving the future of the legal industry around the globe.

This week we are Leaning Law with Isabell Storsjö and Ana Lucia Martins, two researchers engaged in Lean supply chain management and Lean philosophy in justice systems. With Isabell and Ana Lucia we will be discussing the concept of lean thinking in the context of law. Lean thinking, also known as Lean methodology, is a management philosophy that originated in the manufacturing industry and has since been applied to various fields, including healthcare, software development, and now law. The core idea of lean thinking is to eliminate waste, increase efficiency, and continuously improve processes. In the legal industry, this approach has gained momentum in recent years as law firms and legal departments seek to increase productivity, reduce costs, and improve client satisfaction. Isabell and Ana have been researching how the Lean philosophy would also help on the public sector, especially in court proceedings. In this episode, we will explore the principles of lean thinking and how they can be applied to the practice of law. We will also discuss some of the challenges and opportunities that come with implementing lean thinking in the legal industry. Join us as we delve into the world of lean thinking in law and discover how this approach can help legal professionals achieve better results for their clients and themselves in the courtrooms. Ana Lúcia Martins is an Assistant Professor at ISCTE-IUL and an integrated researcher at BRU-Iscte (Business Research Unt). She holds a PhD in Management, with a specialization in Operations Management and Technology. She currently serves as Iscte Business School Vice-dean for Teaching and Innovation, and as Vice-President of Iscte’s Pedagogical Council. Ana teaches Operations Management, Logistics Management, Service Operations Management, and Supply Chain Management. Ana has authored close to 100 scientific articles. She has authored book chapters in logistics management and lean management in the justice systems. Her current main research topics are operations management in humanitarian settings, logistics management, supply chain management, and lean management in the services area, mainly in judicial and healthcare systems. Isabell Storsjö is a Postdoctoral Researcher at the Faculty of Law at the University of Turku. She holds a doctoral degree in Supply Chain Management and Social Responsibility as well as a law degree, and has always been interested in topics that combine the two fields of knowledge. One of the areas where they intersect is justice system reform and legal process improvement, and Isabell started investigating the problems with prolonged legal proceedings, especially in Finland, in 2011. She has published on lean thinking in the justice system in academic journals and books, and has also done research on cooperation between actors in the criminal procedure in Finland. Isabell has followed legal design since attending the first Legal Design Summit as a law student, and is especially interested in the process (or service) design, organization design and system design levels of the concept.

Today, we have planned something extraordinary for you. We finished the last season with a little riddle and asked our audience to guess who was the Special Legal Design Santa in our season finale. We received some answers, thank you for those, and the promised prize was drawn. Our lucky winner is Elif Yildirim, a lawyer and legal design student from Turkey and we invited Elif to plan and co-host an episode with us and what an episode it turned out to be!  Alice Rawsthorn, a British Design Critic and author joined us to discuss about design as an attitude and how it can be incorporated into law. Alice talks about why great design is a human right and explains how we understand design and its potential in different fields of life and what is the level of importance to incorporate design into our responses in times of crisis, such as in the aftermath of the earthquake in Turkey and Syria. We also talk about how design, or design thinking, has increasingly gained popularity in different fields of professions, and law is just one of the examples. Alice explains if there are some “red flags” in this development. -- Alice Rawsthorn is an award-winning design critic and author, whose books include Design as an Attitude, Hello World: Where Design Meets Life and, most recently, Design Emergency: Building a Better Future, co-written with Paola Antonelli, senior curator of design at MoMA, New York. Alice’s weekly design column for The New York Times was syndicated worldwide for over a decade. In all her work, Alice champions design’s potential as a social, political and ecological tool that can help to foster positive change. Born in Manchester and based in London, she is a founding member of the Writers for Liberty campaign for human rights and of the advisory board of the Democracy Next research and action institute as well as a member of the UK government’s Honors Committee for arts and Media. Alice and Paola are co-founders of Design Emergency, a podcast andmin research platform that investigates design’s role in forging a fairer future. Ayşe Elif Yıldırım is a lawyer and academic and most recently a Visual Communication Design student. After traveling and living in many countries of Europe, she is now based in Ankara, Turkey. She has several academic degrees in different fields of law, most recently she was granted her Ph.D. degree with distinction for her doctoral research conducted under the scholarship of Portuguese Foundation for Science and Technology in the field of Business and Human Rights. Always being interested in interdisciplinary fields of work that combine two distinct ways of thinking, Elif is now focusing on Legal Design and how we can use it to solve complex challenges we are facing in our contemporary world.