EP 210 When to Consider or Pass on IVF

Dr. Angela Thyer and Judy Simon discuss their book 'Getting to Baby' and the importance of nutrition and lifestyle in fertility. They share their backgrounds and how they came together to help women improve their nutrition and health for better fertility outcomes. The book covers the connection between food and fertility, the importance of whole foods, debunking misconceptions about diet and fertility, and the benefits of intuitive eating and cooking. They emphasize the need for diversity in food choices and the impact of processed foods on fertility. The book also includes practical tips and recipes to support a healthy pregnancy journey. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of breakfast and meal timing, the impact of nutrition on fertility, the role of integrative medicine in fertility treatment, and the power of lifestyle choices in influencing fertility outcomes. The guests emphasize the importance of combining foods and the role of vegetables in supporting digestion and overall health. They also discuss the impact of stress, sleep, and epigenetics on fertility. The conversation highlights the need for a multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment and the importance of finding a supportive healthcare team.   Takeaways Nutrition and lifestyle play a crucial role in fertility and improving fertility outcomes. Eating whole foods, including a variety of fruits, vegetables, plant-based proteins, and whole grains, is important for fertility. There are many misconceptions about diet and fertility, such as the need to cut out carbs or follow specific diets. It's important to focus on nourishing the body with whole foods. Intuitive eating and cooking skills are valuable in creating a healthy and sustainable approach to nutrition. Diversity in food choices is essential for optimal fertility and overall health. Processed foods can negatively impact fertility, and it's important to prioritize whole foods. The book provides practical tips, recipes, and a six-week blueprint to support a healthy pregnancy journey. Breakfast is an important meal for fertility and overall health. It is best to have a substantial breakfast with protein, fiber, and vegetables. Meal timing is crucial, and it is recommended to have more calories earlier in the day and fewer at night. Combining foods, especially vegetables, can support digestion and nutrient absorption. Stress, sleep, and lifestyle choices have a significant impact on fertility outcomes. Epigenetics plays a role in fertility, and lifestyle choices can influence gene expression. A multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment, including integrative medicine, can provide comprehensive support. Finding a supportive healthcare team is essential for navigating the fertility journey.   Guest Bio: Judy Simon Judy Simon, MS, RDN, CD, CHES is an award winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of Mind Body Nutrition, PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy’s expertise includes fertility, PCOS, eating disorders, weight inclusive medicine and reproductive health.  Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.  Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence, while taking a non-judgmental, inclusive down approach to help people have healthier, more fertile lives.  Judy is the co-founder of Food For Fertility program and co-author of the upcoming (April, 2024) book Getting to Baby A Food-first Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy, Ben Bella Publisher   Guest Bio: Angela Thyer Angela Thyer, MD is board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Ob/Gyn and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a founding partner of Seattle Reproductive Medicine. Dr. Thyer completed her undergraduate education at Duke University, medical school at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University, and fellowship at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. She completed The Culinary Coaching program through the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine in 2020 and became a certified plant-based chef through Rouxbe in 2022. She and Judy Simon, MS, RDN created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out in 2024, Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy which highlights the best foods to optimize fertility.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   Instagram: @angelathyermd Website: angelathyermd.com     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle: So Angela and Judy, welcome. Angela: Thank you so much. We're excited to be here, Michelle. Michelle: So I'd love for you guys to give a background first. , I'm very excited to be talking about your new book, Getting to Baby. I would love for you first to share your background so people can know more about you and what got you to doing this type of work. Angela: Okay. Sure. I'm a reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist. So first I trained in OBGYN and then specialized in reproductive endocrine and infertility. And then I got board certified in lifestyle medicine. So, which is a more holistic kind of way to look at all healthcare, more of a preventive lens of like, how can we look at lifestyle measures to, you know, really help people in all phases of their life. Angela: And I've always been interested in food, nutrition, exercise. And so over the years, it just became a bigger and[00:01:00] bigger part of my practice. And I've always been interested in obviously hormones, but metabolism and Judy and I started working together at the university of Washington. And we found we had this common interest in really helping women, you know, work together to improve their nutrition and health, which subsequently leads to improvement in their fertility. Michelle: Oh, totally. Judy: And I'm a registered dietitian, as Angela mentioned, and my master's is in community health education. And I sort of went through traditional training, and when I came back and re entered, you know, medicine, gosh, about 20 ish years ago, all of a sudden, PCOS and all these things that I had never really learned about just came front and forward. Judy: And so I was fortunate to connect up with Angela and really do the deep dive into, Hey, what do we know about insulin resistance? How is this affecting fertility? And these were things that traditionally I hadn't been taught. [00:02:00]So really, I think we kind of joined each other's worlds. You know, I joined American Society of Reproductive Medicine and, you know, joined all the fertility docs. Judy: And You know, Angela would come to the nutrition conferences. So we did a lot of cross pollination and from that we went off and both started into private practices and she'd refer these amazing patients and we decided, wow, we're seeing them one at a time. Wouldn't it just be the coolest thing if we could start classes? Judy: So about 12 ish years ago, we started the food for fertility classes where we brought women in who were trying to conceive. Many of them had PCOS, endometriosis. unexplained, lots of different diagnosis. And that's who we brought the food and the people and the lifestyle into the classroom, which is really why we wrote the book. Judy: It's kind of, we took all our years of experience, science and knowledge and said, let's make it accessible to more people. Michelle: That's awesome. And so [00:03:00] talk about the book. What's in the book? And obviously it's for people trying to conceive, getting to baby. What were the top things?  Angela: Yeah. Well, we, we started off by, you know, kind of, we always want people to understand the whys, you know, why this, why that what's the connection, what's the underlying biology and physiology? And then what evidence do we know? A lot of nutritional studies about fertility or observational studies, like they'll a population will be observed and they'll say, okay, people who ate these kinds of diets or these kinds of foods had higher fertility and more successful outcomes than people who ate this kind of diet. Angela: So, you know, we, we want to, wanted to present all that information. So people kind of have background and good knowledge and can kind of say, oh, okay, well. Maybe that would be a good idea for me. You know, it's not, it's, it's a broad spectrum of what, you know, a good diet could look like. It's not just one thing. Angela: Obviously [00:04:00] mainly plant forward. Cause I think we all need to eat more fruits and vegetables and plant based foods. But there is room, you know, for some animal foods too, especially things like fish and whole fat dairy, which have shown to increase some fertility benefits. So, you know, we kind of go through all the food groups and talk about what's, what we, where we have evidence, what's good, what's not so good and what vitamins and minerals and nutrients they're adding. Angela: And then, you know, some of the biggest things that we're like, if you want to incorporate this, it's a really, it's a how to. Right. So we wanted to make it like accessible in this sense that anybody at home could be like, Oh, okay. I, gosh, I just want to add one little thing this week. What would I add? What can, what's my takeaway? Angela: What's my smart goal? So people can kind of set their own goals and try to move forward with that, making a little progress at a time. And then the greatest thing I think is sharing stories from our patients who are just fabulous[00:05:00] women who've been on their own journey. And we had so many stories, we couldn't even share them all in the book. Angela: But kind of telling these journeys that sometimes took months, sometimes took years and how they were able to incorporate changes and see changes in themselves. and feel increased energy and then kind of have improved fertility. Maybe if they had a partner, you know, their partner's health was also improving at the same time. Angela: And so many of them were successful either With natural conception, or if they were infertility treatments, having better success in those treatments and making better quality embryos that we were like, wow, you know, that's really what's in the book. So as much as we could share and keep it accessible and reasonable in length. Angela: That's, that's what the book's about. Michelle: I found it very user friendly and I really enjoyed the image of the plate and how half of it was greens, which is great because I do believe that it's so important to get the greens. And there's so many nutrients that you can get[00:06:00] from that. And you talked about some misconceptions too, like on treating PCOS and like common misconceptions on what to eat for fertility. Michelle: So I'd love to touch upon that. Judy: Yeah, well, one of the things that we tried to bring out in the book is when we first started doing our classes, a lot of the reasons women would be referred to us as we'll just go lose weight. So nothing, you know, focusing on their health and we're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not a weight loss class. Judy: This is totally about how to nourish yourself. And actually. Take away the shame and guilt in, you know, whatever size body you have being able to get the benefits of the nutrition and the lifestyle. Right? So, for example there's a lot of people that would come in with a whole list of foods that they thought they shouldn't eat because somebody told them that. Judy: And we're like, well, are you allergic to them? No. Well, okay, you know, here's a safe And that's what we tried to do in the [00:07:00] book. Like showing in all these different, you know, sure, maybe you can't tolerate dairy. Here's a sub, here's something else you can, you can place out so that everybody would feel included, that anybody could be in the classes, read the book and really get the benefit out of it. Judy: So when, when you talk about myths, probably the biggest one is, you know so many women are told cut out carbs. Cut out carbs and we're like, Oh no. Well, what's in whole grains and ancient grains. We know those inositols we hear about in PCOS. Guess where they come from? White beans, buckwheat. So we're saying where can you get these ancient grains are just so filled with minerals and also really showing that looking at the quality of carbs that you're choosing most of the time is actually going to be beneficial. Judy: And this is kind of relief for women to hear like, I don't have to starve myself. I get to eat and try new things. Michelle: Yeah. That's such a good point. And also, cause a [00:08:00] lot of times when people have carbs, it's simple carbs or juices where you're taking basically, even if it's fresh juices, like we're really meant to have the whole fruit, right? The fiber like, and digest it slowly so that it's not a sugar spike. I'd love for you to talk about that too, the importance of, of actually having the whole food. Angela: Yeah, we definitely talk about kind of it being a whole food diet because that is so important and The issue with I mean, yes, you can get some of the nutrients if you juice But you're also gonna get mainly sugar without the fiber if you've removed the fiber. So the fiber is so important both to slow down your digestion and really pay attention to gut health. Angela: And I know you focus a lot on gut health. You know, that's where so much of our health overall starts. And there's so many connections between the gut and the mind and the body and the hormones and everything else, every, every system. And so, having that [00:09:00] fiber in your diet, really from whole foods. I mean, especially plant based foods, right? Angela: Because animal foods don't have fiber, but the plant based foods really then is is great food for the microbiomes, the microbiome, our microbiome and the bacteria, the 3 trillion bacteria that live in our gut. And it helps create, you know, it's more anti inflammatory because so many people kind of can get. Angela: almost a chronic inflammation from not eating enough fiber, not feeding their microbiome. And then that can lead to more issues in more body systems that they may not even be aware of. But nobody is, you know, advertising whole foods, like whole foods. So much of what people see and kind of the noise that feeds in is just, you know, everything else that's marketed in a box or a bag or somebody. Angela: And so that's what, and so sometimes those help people put health claims on other products that [00:10:00] aren't whole foods and then whole foods kind of get neglected. And so, yeah, we definitely want to say, you know, it's important. And we talk about eating the rainbow and the colors because each colors, providing different phytonutrients. Angela: And so, you know, you want that broad range because the more diversity you have in your fruits and vegetables, the more diverse a microbiome you're going to develop, the better protection for your immune system and just make everything else work better in your whole body. Michelle: I love that you talk about diversity because actually a lot of people end up developing sensitivities even if it's healthy food that they eat all the time and it's important to have diversity because it really allows the body to get so many different benefits and also not get too intolerant of one specific thing. Michelle: The body likes diversity. Judy: Absolutely. And we really wanted people to feel inclusive with the book. So that's why there's so much [00:11:00]culinary medicine, like just basic skills. Here's how you can throw something together without even a recipe, you know, just really, you know, five steps to a great salad. What should it have, you know, different things like that. Judy: And we also wanted it to really highlight the, All the global cuisines. And so for example I see a large population of South Asian women, right? And so there's, there, there always were like their diets too high in carbs. And we talked about what are all the wonderful things that herbs that you're using, the dolls, you know, the pulses, but we tried to make sure we had things from all regions because unfortunately a lot of people here in the medical world, like, Oh, just eat the Mediterranean diet. Judy: We're like, Oh no, no, no way. That that's so exclusive. It's not inclusive. We want to talk about, you know, foods from, you know, West Africa or Central America, a lot of the indigenous healthy foods, and then also what's seasonally available. And so one of the things that we really tried to [00:12:00]share is a lot of different types of foods. Judy: Simple preparation, but let people start where they're comfortable. So if you're a chef that only has three or four recipes and you're still sort of using some are processed foods, maybe they'll start with adding a soup or adding some vegetable dishes or adding a salad and letting them know you're going to get benefits from those first steps. Judy: Because some people feel like, like I just talked to someone, she goes, I'm trying to be all in, you know, trying to be perfect. Do you know what I mean? Michelle: Yeah, Judy: And that's stressful. It's stressful to feel like you're getting a grade on your diet. And we want people to feel like it's fun. They're having a date night with their partner and maybe they're trying a new recipe in the book. Judy: Or they got inspired because there is a lot of pressure when people are trying to conceive. And the book is also for those people who are like, Hey, we want to get pregnant in the next year. What's the path to a healthy pregnancy? We have no idea how long it's going to take, but [00:13:00] what's going to prepare us? Judy: And you know, Michelle, that like 50 percent of pregnancies are unplanned. So a lot of people, you know, maybe they're exposed to a lot of those fertility disruptors, and if they would have known even a few months in advance, they could have decreased some of the risks, you know that could impact their fertility and pregnancy. Michelle: definitely. I remember seeing something, it was about a burger or like a chicken sandwich or something. It was a sandwich with a bun that the woman just kept in her closet and just saw what happened and it was not, it was not good. Breaking down and I'm like, whoa That is crazy. Like things are supposed to break down if they don't break down and they don't yeah Just break down like what happens in your body So talk about the importance of eating whole foods. Michelle: Listen, we're going to have processed food once in a while. It's not like, you know, end all be all like, it's not one thing or another, obviously, [00:14:00] but talk about the importance of really being intentional about choosing more whole foods in your diet.  Angela: Well, you know, I do think, I think that everybody's so different in what they eat, but I think that, yeah, the ultra processed foods and processed grains, so like breads, cereals, pastas, Anything it's just so it it's everywhere, right? It's it's you can't get away from it and it's become normalized And it and so it has become acceptable and ordinary And the problem with those foods is yeah, you don't need to say i'm not never going to eat that again But it replaces it, you know, it takes the place of whole foods. Angela: And so I think you know Where do you get whole foods? Well, it's hard to get whole foods You You know if you're eating If you're buying foods at convenience stores or fast food restaurants or even regular restaurants Sometimes i'm surprised that menus don't have Kind of like more vegetables available when we talk about the fertility plate[00:15:00] and the whole plate being half Vegetables, right? Angela: You're not going to get that in a restaurant, like the restaurant usually. So, you know, we, we have talked to women, we didn't really talk about this that much in the book, but like, I think some of the women gave us examples of, you know, planning when you go to a restaurant, gosh, what can I eat from this menu that would be more of a whole food, what are the, sometimes the side vegetables are something they'll order from some of those things to say like, yeah, I don't need to necessarily go for the most. Indulgent luxurious meal. I want to go for the whole foods cause I know that's what my body needs. So we talk about being intuitive eater or competent eater. It, you know, I don't think this is taught well in schools. So, you know, to, to be honest, nobody, it's nobody's fault. Like where you are, it's a growth opportunity for everybody to be like, Hey, I didn't really get this education growing up. Angela: My parents worked. I didn't, you know, I didn't cook that much growing up, but now I'm an adult. And I need to really learn about [00:16:00] nutrition and what my body needs and how to heal myself through food. And what that might mean is I need to cook more. And if I don't know how to cook more with whole foods, You know, there's opportunities to learn. Angela: There's so much now available on YouTube, or that's both good and not so good, but you know, you can find the good, the good things and learn to cook with whole foods and buy things like our book, which are trying to teach people almost some intuitive cooking skills. Cause you don't always want to be cooking from a recipe. Angela: You want to get some basic staples and some comfort in the kitchen and some things you really are good at, and then always build new and add new. Okay. But yeah, so that was like one of the tenants of our philosophy of how we taught was, let's talk about, you know, building a meal. Let's talk about what vegetables are going to be in the meal, what protein is going to be in the meal. Angela: And for us, that was mainly going to be a [00:17:00] plant based protein. So either beans, lentils. tofu or tempeh or edamame, so a soy based protein, or fish, since all of those have been shown to increase fertility. And then whole grains, those ancient grains, so not processed and kind of putting that all together and nuts and seeds and other things that provide those denser nutrients. Angela: And really starting with like cutting things up, like, okay, let's prep everything. Let's do the mise en place. Let's get everything ready. Let's plan meals. So you're going to have leftovers. because it takes work and effort. You don't want to put all that effort in and then only eat once. So you want to have some leftover meals that you can repurpose throughout the week or free some of these meals that you're going to be able to then thaw out next week or next month when you're more time pressed, and you know, you've got your own freezer meal that you've prepared that you're going to be able to thaw out and cook and have a nutritious, delicious, quick meal, right? Angela: So it's just a, I think it's a mindset, right? [00:18:00] It's a different way to think. And, and everybody can get there and just build that knowledge and build those skills. And that's exciting. Michelle: It is exciting. I find that whenever you're learning something new, like you, you make it more complicated in your mind. You're like, oh, I have to do this whole thing. But you don't realize, like as you learn it, you could really strategize and make it so much easier and cheaper. You could save money that way. Judy: Absolutely. Michelle, you bring up a really good point. And what's really fun is a lot of the women who've taken classes or patients of ours, like even after like two years after they have their baby, I'll get an email. You know, I saved all those recipes from class and I still love the, you know, the quinoa mango black bean salad. Judy: It's so delicious in the summer. I take it to parties or one patient just wrote me about the soca bread made out of chickpeas that they start to add them to their repertoire or you want to increase their self efficacy, their confidence and their competency. And then when they do eat out, you know, maybe [00:19:00] they do broaden and they, you know, they go for an Indian meal or an Asian meal and they know like, Hey, I'm going to order one whole vegetarian. Judy: So I get more broccoli and veggies like they know how to order and feel good. When they go out or they travel, you know, how can I take that and keep it better? And, you know, just really, you know, giving them that support. And so in the book, for some people, this is really new. We kind of do like a six week blueprint, but we also say like, If you feel pretty good on some of the skills and you've checked the box, awesome. Judy: Work on some of those things that you, you want to build up stronger in your repertoire. And if you feel like you need more time, I remember when our class switched to virtual and we started to go to every other week, the women were like, this is kind of good because I have more time to work on my goals. Judy: I kind of like that other, remember the every other week model? You could do that with a six week plan. Maybe I'm going to try to do this over twelve weeks, you know, three months, give myself some time to To try new things.[00:20:00] And the thing is you're getting the benefit with every step you take. There's a benefit, you know? Judy: And so the cool thing for us is sometimes at the end of the class, women who didn't eat in the morning, they like. You know, we started eating in the morning because of class and the food was really good. They started regulating their cycles, Michelle. It was amazing. And one of our last live classes before COVID, I remember one table of four, they were all kind of waiting to get their cycles and things and getting ready for IVF. Judy: And they all went on to conceive. They all got their cycles and went on to conceive. And that was just, the cost of food and, you know, putting a little bit of time in so that lifestyle does make a difference whether someone's going for art treatment or they're, you know, they're, you know, they're just maximizing their fertility options. Michelle: Yeah, there was actually a study on girls in college that skipped breakfast and how it impacted their cycles I thought that was interesting[00:21:00] Judy: I would guess negatively. I'm thinking if Michelle: Negatively, yes negatively. Yeah. Yeah, Judy: You know, I just want to check. Michelle: They most of them started regular and it they became irregular. Judy: You know, and people are getting into a lot of fads where they're really time boxing their food. I just talked to someone in a smaller body and she says, I'm trying to eat clean. So I only eat between this time and this time. I go, Michelle: Mm hmm Judy: you should eat when you're hungry. Your body needs nourishment all day, not just eight hours. Judy: So sometimes we see people that are going to overboard. And they're restricting, and then their reproductive axis is not getting the nutrients it needs. And I'm like, that's not what you want to do for ag health. That's not what you want to do for reproductive health. If you feel cold at night and you're, and, and you know, and as we know with, you know, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, energy is such an important concept. Judy: So if you're freezing all of a sudden, and you're starving [00:22:00] yourself, you're not nourishing your body. Michelle: Absolutely. And actually in Ayurvedic medicine, they say that when the sun is out, that is when, because we, you know, we, we respond to the elements. And when the sun is out, especially like around 12 PM, you should have your largest meal because it increases your own digestive fire because we get influenced by nature. Michelle: And actually the morning you should have breakfast, you should have food during the day when the digestive fire is. Increase the most and when you shouldn't is as it gets darker like a couple hours before you go to sleep That's when you can give your body a break. So it kind of According to Ayurveda, it's a little bit more flipped than what's typically done where people skip breakfast. Angela: Right. And, and, you know, that, that exactly parallels some of the metabolic studies, right? So what Ayurvedic medicine is known for so long, right? And then Western medicine has to come and prove it that like our digestion is[00:23:00] better in the morning and the way glucose and, and. nutrients are processed in the morning is better when we have more energy and we're more active throughout the day. Angela: And then at night, things are winding down and slowing down and you want your body to relax for sleep and not be digesting a big meal. And, and we do talk about that, but it is really hard for people to flip to try and get more calories and earlier in the day when fewer at night when the typical pattern is, is the opposite. Michelle: and it's going to give them a lot more productivity and energy to have a good breakfast because you know, protein, you got those good fiber and vegetables and berries and, really start your day right. Judy: We encourage people if they're really set in a way, we're like, we'll do it as an experiment. Be curious. Try it on the weekend. Maybe try it on the weekend because you don't want to change your flow. See how your energy feels, especially when people are telling us they're fatigued. Judy: They're like, I'm so tired. And it's [00:24:00] like, and most of their energy intake is at night. They wake up not hungry. You know, we do try, you know, try to flip that around and that's part of that intuitive eating and eating competence and see where your body, because really people know a lot about their body and so we want them to be in tune to that too and trust that. Angela: And I was just going to add that, you know, sometimes people have these ideas of what a typical breakfast, lunch, and dinner is and what food should be part of those meals. And we say, Hey, that does not have to be the case either. I love a breakfast salad. I love eating my leftover dinner from the night before for breakfast. Angela: If I've made something delicious, I made this great stir fry and I've had a little bit because it's late, but I'm like, I want to have that for breakfast. I'm going to have a big bowl, you know, so I love having those other things early in the day because I do feel like it gives me great energy. And then the other thing that we talk about is, you know, the[00:25:00] walking after meals and especially getting outside early in the morning and getting that sunlight to really Start your day and, and get your clock going and how important those rhythms can be to recognize that you have, your body has a rhythm, sleep consistency is important, exercise and movement throughout the day is important, all these other things that we want to build in, you know, to our base for overall wellness to support fertility. Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love it that you're a doctor and you're interested in this because unfortunately it's not as common. Like people don't know about all of these things about really connecting with nature and the nutrition aspect of it. So it's amazing. It's so well rounded because you have like so many different backgrounds and perspectives on Judy: We, we, we, yeah, we try to bring it all together and that's why this book would have been much longer if our publisher didn't say stop, you know, it was like twice as long. You'll see when you're writing your book, you want to share everything. And so we did include [00:26:00] two chapters on like boosters and disruptors, you know, talking about stress and sleep. Judy: And then also some of the disruptors like, you know, alcohol, cannabis, endocrine disruptors, because we didn't want to scare people, but we felt they needed to know. And you know, science based, evidence based, but we did put it at the end. You know, we really focus on the food and feeding yourself because really that's what our program is all about. Judy: But we find that when they put it all together and they get to those boosters and they add the movement and the stress and so many of our patients, patients who do acupuncture will say, well, that's one of the ways I always say, what do you get out of it? Cause I always want to know. And they go, Oh man, I'm such a good place to do. Judy: I leave in my stress level is so much better. I go, then that's something you want to include in, in, in what you're doing for your health. If you have the privilege and you have the accessibility to it. So we, we try to make everything accessible. Because there's so [00:27:00] many women and men who don't have access to medical care when it comes to fertility. Judy: It's really the underprivileged do not have access or such limited access that we thought if we could at least cover the main things and it could be, you know, available in libraries or, you know, things like that and audio books that that would be a way that more people could really have that information. Michelle: Well, it's great information. And also, I love that it talks about. combining foods, in Chinese medicine, we have a lot of formulas of herbs. So each herbal formula has different herbs and they work together as a symphony. And a lot of times they'll include ginger or digestive herbs to help assimilate. Michelle: So working together, And a certain symphony is what makes it that much more beneficial for the body. And I like how you talk about the importance of combining foods. You were talking about putting [00:28:00] vegetables because if you just eat meat without vegetables, it's not going to be able to simulate as well and digest as well without those vegetables helping in that fiber. Angela: Right. The vegetables are actually pretty protective, right? So I mean, there, you know, there have been studies that look at people who eat just more of an all meat diet and then people who eat more of a vegetable based diet, but with meat and the gut is healthier, right? If you incorporate those vegetables the, the, because the fiber from the vegetables is so protective. Angela: That then you are able to digest the, the meat and make use of the nutrients in the meat as well. So I think that's, that's great advice. And I think that, you know, out here we're in Seattle. And so we have a lot of, you know, we have a number of people who are trained in acupuncture. They are, you know, trained in traditional Chinese medicine. Angela: And we have always basically said, you know, gosh, I don't know that area, [00:29:00] but I trust. The practitioners in my area who knows so much this has been around for so long that let's, you know, combine and talk about the best of all worlds and support everybody's health. And then the same with fertility clinics, like some people really are going to need that extra step of a traditional IVF clinic. Angela: They might need insemination. They might need IVF. And then all these other things are going to be supportive and enhance their success because it's so expensive. And the last thing you want to have to do is multiple cycles. And so the more efficient you can make each cycle by bringing your best self forward into the process and taking the time, like a lot of people, you know, want to kind of take a lot of time to get to a fertility clinic. Angela: And then once they get there, they want IVF yesterday. Like they want to be pregnant yesterday. So And it's still really about the time and the investment in, [00:30:00] you know, producing optimum health for you and your partner. And so that, you know, it might take a good three months, right? Of preparation to say, let's make sure when you do IVF, if you need IVF and you're going to do it, that everything's perfect. Angela: As great as you can make it going into the cycle instead of just like, Oh, there's an opening next week. Let's get started. You know Michelle: I wish all reproductive endocrinologists spoke like you Angela: Oh, yeah. Thank Judy: she, and she, and she walks the walk, you know, for all the patients we've had together. A lot of times after that initial consult, she'd be like, okay, I want you to do, you know, food for fertility and work on nutrition and lifestyle for three months. You know, let's see, you know, what we can do with some of these biomarkers that are, that are elevated in a very positive way. Judy: And then quite often during that three months, a woman starts cycling. I always, I remember saying to Angela once years ago, I go, What if you put the [00:31:00] fertility clinics out of business? I mean, we were kidding, you know, when I said that they have the role. So please don't think I'm saying that, but you know, we did. Judy: And she's like, great. She was like, wonderful. Let's help people on the easiest journey. Let's not, you know, when someone gets sent to me and they've already had three failed IVFs. for whatever reason. And they're like, okay, I want to work on my nutrition. I'm so happy to work with them, but I feel really bad because they're pretty wounded because they've been pretty disappointed and let down. Judy: And sometimes it was something obvious that nobody ever brought up, you know, their eating disorder, their PCOS, that things could have been optimized first. So I think that's where we all work together. So I feel like that's why when you work in integrative planning, You know, practices. We, we work with, you know, fertility yoga instructors that we really trust and, and, and, and D's and dietitians and, and, you know, we know which clinics are going to be weight shaming, you know, we want to know [00:32:00] where can our patients put the best team together, where can they get support groups from resolve or other organizations so that they feel as fully supported as they go on this journey, because a lot of people, Never expected this. Judy: They just, I went through unexplained infertility for years. Never thought that was in the bags for me, but it was like. You know, you feel helpless. So having a community, and I think when we all work together interdisciplinary, you know, and we know the best people to send our patients to, or best organizations, or how to check, we really help them. Judy: We really, we really can help. So we're excited about you, you know, your future book. Yes. I mean, you know, I was just coming first, but yeah, looking for resources is so important, Michelle. Angela: And I, right. And I think, you know, those resources are great. And then also if somebody is seeing somebody and it's not clicking. You know, it could be it could be their doctor. It could be their [00:33:00] dietitian. It could be whatever They you don't have to stay with the same person. You can actually go get another opinion you might You know, click better and work better with someone else who Has different information even it's not all the same. Angela: So each of us don't necessarily provide the same information or You know, it's an art and a science and I think we all feel that that we connect with people It's so important, but we all connect differently And and as an individual each person should really You Make the most of that and, and really make that work for them. Angela: They're the ones they're invested in it. Michelle: That is so true. Absolutely true. I've seen people who have been going for years to one reproductive endocrinologist and then when they changed different approach, different energy, just like, and it was a different outcome, Angela: Yep. Michelle: you know, it happens.  Judy: And if you make a change, [00:34:00] no one's mad at you. We all want the same end result. I always tell them all the clinics in this town, they're all friends. They all know each other, you know, professionally, they all know each other. They're going to send your charts. Judy: They're not going to hold them back. You know, everybody does want a positive outcome, you know, to take place. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean you know, not always the case, , but when it is, it's amazing, and it's true you really do have to find that alignment and I always say, you know, it takes a village and creating a team of different people that can support you in different ways. Michelle: When going through this, but of course nutrition is so important in Chinese Judy: We all eat. Michelle: Yeah, we all eat and we eat for a reason a good reason, right? Angela: Mm hmm. Michelle: And the spleen and stomach are actually the center and they're like the mother in a sense, you know the nurturer Aspect of our bodies and that is really where everything else gets built they [00:35:00] talk about pre heaven chi pre heaven energy in the kidneys And of course the kidneys are really important But sustenance, the energy with which we can sustain and increase after our genetics is food, Angela: Right. And I think, you know, that's just kind of being understood. I mean, I think in science, Yeah. We now are recognizing, you know, there's genetics, and then there's epigenetics, which is how the genes are expressed and the epigenetics is how we influence which genes are expressed. And that has to do with our nutrition, our stress. Angela: Our sleep, our movement, our community, our mental disposition, our mental health, our optimism. All these things have a huge impact in our health by the epigenetics. And I think people sometimes think it's just genetics and things are. A predetermined and it's going to be one way and it's totally [00:36:00] not. You have so much influence as a, as an individual about what path your life can take and how your health is affected by these decisions you make every day. Michelle: which is so empowering, I think, to know that you actually can have a hand in your Angela: Mm hmm.  Judy: , I was just thinking we almost wanted to add a whole another chapter on epigenetics, but we had to pull it back. So we just kind of sprinkled it in, you know, the lifestyle things. But even when we work with people who are using donor eggs, their health will have an impact on these epigenetics. So that really empowering that mom, you are the full mom, you know, even with a donor egg, what you eat, your life, your health. Judy: Is going to have an impact on your baby. And I think that really helps people to know that Michelle: That is such a good point. It's really true because it's, it's all important. It's all parts of the [00:37:00] whole.  That's where you do have control right over your lifestyle. And these some of these decisions because you don't always have control over your fertility. I mean, certain aspects are just out of your control, and you do feel that helplessness. Angela: And so I think where you can feel good and feel empowered is, you know, these are the actions I can take. These are the steps I can take. I am making progress. I am growing as a person. I'm helping myself. I'm helping my community. Whatever the case may be, I try to recommend not kind of losing yourself in just trying to get pregnant. Angela: Really recognize your, yourself as a whole person and all the things you are providing to, to your community through purpose and service and love and, and everything you're doing is just, it's key to who you are and it brings you strength and peace. And that's just really [00:38:00] Great to know and you, those are decisions you can make. Angela: That's not something out of your control. Michelle: That's so important. And thank you for bringing that up and you guys, I could talk to you guys for hours cause you know what, you know what I love? Well, first of all, your knowledge, you guys are very knowledgeable about what you're talking about, but the passion , and the compassion. With which you are operating  Michelle: I think we both have one major thing in common is that we love this community and it's a beautiful community to serve. And so for people who want to find you or read your book, how can they find you? Judy: Well, the book is available at all major books, booksellers and many of the independent ones request it getting to baby book.com. It will be released April 9th. So I'm not sure when this is released, but April 9th will be released. It can be pre-ordered. You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition or on my website, mindbody nutrition.com [00:39:00] and Angela. Angela: And you can also request the book from your library. So libraries don't automatically stock books, but if individuals make a request to a library, the library can order the book. So that's something to know as well. And then I'm at AngelaThiremd. com or at AngelaThiremd on Instagram. Michelle: Awesome. It was such a pleasure meeting the two of you. You guys are so nice and so knowledgeable and just really lovely to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Angela: Thank you, Michelle. Judy: Michelle. Thanks, Michelle. Angela: to you as well. 

On tomorrow’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Alana McGlashan of @thenurturedwomban_ shares her personal fertility challenge story and experience with Asherman's syndrome. She discusses the complications she faced after a miscarriage and the diagnosis of severe Asherman's syndrome. Alana shares her journey of healing and preparing her body for conception, as well as her experiences with pregnancy and loss. She emphasizes the importance of connecting with the heart and womb, and the power of self-trust in the healing process. I was deeply moved by her story of hope and how she found strength to listen deeply to her soul’s calling and knowing that she was meant to have her children. Be sure to tune in!   Description:   Alana experienced miscarriage, Ashermans Syndrome & infertility on her journey to conceive. Navigating Asherman's Syndrome was one of the hardest times of her life as she was told due to the severity she may not be able to have children. Sending her on a healing journey that although may have taken 2 years, she now has 2 children later. The medicine she found on her journey she now shares with women in her 1:1 energetic womb explorations, helping women to rewrite the story they have been told on their own fertility journey & setting the foundations for profound healing. You can find her on Instagram @thenurturedwomban_     For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Alana. Alana: Hi, how are you going? Michelle: Good. So I'd love for you to share your story. I know that it's been a very personal fertility challenge story and definitely defied the odds from what you were told. And I love stories of hope. So I'm very excited to have you on and share your story and your experience with Asherman's syndrome, which I think a lot of people aren't really aware or may not even be aware that they actually have. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. And at the time, you know, I had no idea what it was and it was something I was searching for in the hopes to hear hope, because I was just hearing a lot of stats and a lot of Let's say stories that I didn't, I didn't want to hear at the time. So I felt pregnant and lost that little baby at 10 weeks. Alana: And I was a scientist working in Sydney, which is from [00:01:00] where I live, two hours travel away. And I went to the early early pregnancy. room, and they gave me all these options of what you can do next. And. At the time, everything, I would say I was heavily in my masculine energy. Like all just do the things, list out the steps and we will follow them to become parents. Alana: And because I traveled so far away, I took the option of a DNC, which is a dilation and curette. I'm not sure if that's called anything else anywhere else. And it's just basically the surgical removal. Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, and I woke up to complications after that. And, you know, after being told like, it's so routine and I just thought, you know, it would be simple. Alana: We do this and then I have a bleed and we can start trying again. And I woke up to, yes, as I said, complications. And [00:02:00] feeling really disorientated and I just felt really in my gut like wow what what just happened and they kind of just brushed me off and My doctor, then later, just was like, okay, well it's been six weeks, you haven't got your bleed back. Alana: Sometimes women need a little bit longer. And I just knew in my gut things weren't right. And for me, I had no period. So 12 weeks, post that surgery. I still had no period. Yeah. And I think maybe around the eight weeks I, I was like, no, my gut's telling me something's not right. I'm going to book a specialist appointment and because they take so long to get into, I thought I'm just going to book it now. Alana: And if I don't need it, then I can cancel it.  Michelle: Did you, did you know anything at the time? Did they say something was off or you just kind of felt Alana: yeah, they, there was nothing ever mentioned of Ashman syndrome. The only thing that they mentioned, I mean, they obviously mentioned some risks that can happen and the risks, risks are a perforated uterus, but it's so [00:03:00]routine that if that was to happen, that was really negligence. And that was all that they had described as a potential risk. Alana: So I hadn't even heard of Ashman's by this point, like, and so I followed my gut, made this appointment and it must have been around the four month mark after surgery and I told him my story thinking I was just going in there to get a tablet that would just help kickstart everything. Maybe I just needed some help to get things along. Alana: And again, you know, I was, I was very naive at that time on, of my cycle and understanding my body. And I walked in and told him my story. And basically he said, we, there's something called Ashman syndrome, and I feel that this is, this is your situation. And. We need to get in and have a look like, cause he could do it via scans and then go in and do surgery, but he's like, due to the nature of how long you've already waited and the scar tissue that would be there if it was [00:04:00] confirmed. Alana: We need to get this cleaned up ASAP basically. Michelle: Before we continue on the details, I want people to know like, what is Asherman's syndrome? Alana: So Ashman's syndrome is basically where scar tissue grows inside the uterus and reduces your fertility as a result from some form of surgery. So they might try and say just from DNC, but if you have a baby and maybe there's retained placenta and they clean it out that way, any sort of surgical intervention within your uterus, Could potentially scar. Alana: And I think what's important for women to know right now is that any change in your period. Or if you're experiencing difficulties falling could be a sign. I have no women after, so the percentage is actually quite low. I forgot to look it up before we jumped on today of Ashermans. But The other women that I had sort [00:05:00] of searched for to bring awareness to our local hospital and their procedures, they had their period, but their periods just were different, a little bit lighter, maybe they didn't go as long, there was just a lot less. Alana: small signs, which they quite easily then got fobbed off as just being paranoid in a sense. And then all turned out to have different stages of Ashman's, whereas I had none and my stage was quite high. Actually the highest he had seen in my local area. So that was not good news for me. Michelle: Yeah. Alana: yeah, so long story short, he said we need to operate and Confirm, and if so, it's a 20 minute procedure, I'll be in and I'll be out. Alana: And, I thought, oh, I thought my legs were pulled out from me at that moment, but from that surgery I woke up and I felt really disorientated, as you do, and he's standing there waiting for me to wake up to tell me that, [00:06:00] yes, I've confirmed it's Ashman's Syndrome, however, it is so severe, I I've been in there for four hours and I can't see without risking damage to your uterus. Alana: And I need to do some further tests before we continue. And I remember the first thought I thought of was, am I going to be able to have children? And he had this solemn look on his face and he goes, I have no idea what's possible right now. And I was just. Gutted. Absolutely gutted. Michelle: Wow. That is so real. I mean to be in a situation like that and just thinking, okay, I'm going to go in and have the surgery and everything's going to be fine, it's going to be, what did he say? 20 minutes? And to actually see that it's really severe so what happened after that?  Alana: Yeah, so I then had to go you have to allow a little bit of [00:07:00] time for some healing and they put in, I think it depends for the surgeon, but I got a gel put in that just kind of tried to help what he did pull away with the scar tissue not to reform because there is a risk that as he opens it up, like the little spindles might. Alana: touch and then start to pull together. So they put in this gel that lasts, I think, for four weeks. So I had to wait a month. And then he sent me for a we call it here a sonar histogram. So it's just a ultrasound where they insert water into your uterus. And then they can see like a good picture, the flow, if there's any blocks. Alana: And I think for women that might have blocked fallopian tubes, sometimes they use this and it can either unblock or at least identify that the fallopian tubes are blocked. And, I'm just going to say that was the worst pain I had ever been in getting that. And again, no one warned me that it could be uncomfortable. Alana: And I wouldn't say uncomfortable [00:08:00] was the word. And I was just so lucky. I had a girlfriend who came with me and just said, look, I can, I can sit here and hold your hand while they do this. And it probably turned out the reason why for me it was so painful, but I have now heard many other women describe it as quite excruciating. Alana: Is that my, most of my uterus? was scarred to the point that it was nearly completely shut. Michelle: Oh, wow. Alana: And so they were trying to obviously shove water in it and like open it up when it could not. And so that again was like a really hard thing to take. And the specialist had said that he will have to do this with multiple surgeries. The good news is there is a side, there's a little part that is open and he believed if he could get to there, then he could. Remove the rest and it may take a few surgeries, but he just wanted to take his time. Alana: He didn't want to [00:09:00] cause more damage. And so we had just resigned to the fact that this is a process that needs to be done and there's no rushing it. And the good news was the next surgery, he was able to remove all the scar tissue. And again, he inserted the gel so that the hopes that nothing would close back up. Alana: And then I had another follow up, just normal ultrasound, because I said, I was too scarred to have that other ultrasound again and yeah. And then from there he's like, okay, this is great. You know, we've got, we've got rid of it. The uterus has opened back up. It's gone to normal shape again. Let's work on your lining. Alana: So a. Do I call it a symptom afterwards? Is that Your lining may not become thick again. And he is also an IVF specialist. So he was really [00:10:00] wanting my lining to get to a certain thickness that he would put his, or would want his IVF patients to be on which just was not happening. And at first it was really disheartening. Alana: And so he'd reached out to, there's a guru in Sydney, and then he went further. I think it was It was overseas and he just said, you know, like some of them don't come back, you know, any thicker. And that is, that is their lining. And so obviously being a scientist, I had read all the papers, read all the stats and nothing was looking great to have a baby. Alana: Some women had not many in the severity that I had. And if they did have one that were high risks the risk was the placenta could attach to your uterus muscle. And just a whole heap of other things that you really don't want to hear when all you want to do is be a mom. [00:11:00] And yeah, so it was like, I just kept going to this place and this place just kept giving me the answers that did not agree with what was in my heart. Alana: And I just thought this can't be my story. This can't be my only story. And I just had this feeling to expand where I was looking. And so I started to research other modalities. And I thought, you know what, if I can just help support my body, who knows what's possible. And I ended up finding a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner who specialized in fertility and I went there weekly for two years. Alana: Yes. And I felt good. I felt like this was where I was meant to be, but it was really hard to hear the things that she[00:12:00] was saying. Like your body can be trusted. Your body can self heal. Everything's possible because at the time I was so, as I said, in my masculine energy of stats and facts that. Michelle: hmm. Alana: how, how, and it wasn't until obviously with the, with the acupuncture and the herbs, my mind started to heal, my heart started to heal, that then my womb had a chance to heal. Alana: And of course it sent me on this huge journey, deep dive into energetics of the womb and its capacity, its ability. And I started to believe that, whoa, okay. She's a powerful organ, and not just organ, portal for creation. And, Alana: Right? Tingles! Yeah! Michelle: Yeah. When you said heart, that struck me. 'cause I know that the heart's connected to the uterus. Alana: And, [00:13:00] it wasn't, it took me a long time to put two and two together. And, your emotional state. And like, the womb is the element of water, so your emotions. And it's the sister heart, right? So of course, our emotions are going to get stored in our uterus. And if she's too busy trying to hold our emotions that we're not processing, how was I giving her the space she needed to heal in the timeframe I wanted, you know? Alana: And it was just, my world had opened up. I still had at that time stayed close to the medical system. There was still fears, you know. that if I had fallen pregnant what that then might look like, what that journey may look like. And we decided to focus not on a baby at the moment, just focus on healing, get married. Alana: And I fell pregnant on my honeymoon or I found out on my honeymoon and we were so excited. But [00:14:00]again, I decided not to get a scan until a bit later, but that, that Bubby had decided only six weeks was it's time on this earth. And as, Sad as that was. It actually gave me the biggest sense of hope. And I realized the message was just give me time, Michelle: Oh, Alana: me time. Michelle: wow. Alana: And so I was like, okay, this is possible. That was without intervention. That was without any other, cause I had a lot of fear around anyone going in my uterus again, because of course I trusted someone to go in there and do their job. And I came out damaged and that really, and that like, not just you were hurt from that. Alana: That changed the projection of my life completely. And so I had a lot of mistrust. I didn't want anyone to go near it if I could help it. So I really wanted that natural approach. And as I said, as that strength between [00:15:00] heart and womb grew, I knew that that was going to be possible and I just had to trust that you know, the divine timing of trusting and surrender is not the easiest thing to fall into or follow, but. Alana: I just had to trust that my heart was guiding me on the path that, that then needed to be. Alana: Sorry, that brings up lots of emotions thinking about back then. Alana: And so, yeah, it was, it was actually quite interesting that the divine timing of the, that baby that I then lost the second time, my family suffered a significant loss in like my immediate family not long after. And. I believe that that baby also knew that it wasn't the time because I needed to be there for my little brother. Alana: And it was, I was just, [00:16:00] you know, at the time you just think, wow, I'm cop and blow after blow. But when you had the little bit of space, you just thought, well, how would I have been able to grow a baby right now? Like I am in so much grief. It, it was insane. And then once He was better. I went on a Bali trip with a best friend and we just, she's like, you just need to, you know, live life a little bit. Alana: And we went on this retreat and it was when we came back from that, we were like, okay, I feel like we're in a good place now. Like I'm in a good place. Let's just see what happens without the pressure and the timing and the scheduling. I didn't want conceiving to be a job. I really wanted it to be from the heart. And it was about, yeah, because I feel like when you're struggling, you really take the heart out of conceiving and conception. Michelle: is, you are, every single thing is a quote. I'm like, this is amazing. This is really, I'm [00:17:00] feeling this. Alana: Conception isn't just the creation between man and woman, Michelle: Yes. Alana: It's a co creation with the spirit of that baby and what it, what fuses that love, you know? And. I wanted the next baby to be strong, strong enough to like, whatever we needed to go through, we had each other. And.  Michelle: Like the stuff that you're telling, like it's making me emotional. Just so you know, like I'm really feeling every word that you're saying, not to interrupt, but continue. Alana: I probably needed that pause for a second. Yeah. And so then we found out in February I was pregnant and you know what? I knew, I knew instantly this was the baby, that this baby was going nowhere, that they were here and. My dreams had come true. There were still fears around the placenta attaching to my uterus and what that could mean. Alana: And at the end of the [00:18:00] day, I have resided to the fact that if this was going to be my only baby, so be it because I wanted this baby. And. Yeah, I was in, I was, I had an OB because if things did start to go south, we wanted to be on that early. But anyways, I had a beautiful pregnancy. No complications. Alana: The placenta was in a great spot. And it even got to the point, because most, the stats had suggested that women with Ashmans have. a caesarean. And again, that fear of do not go near that part of my body. I don't want you there. I really didn't want it if I didn't have to. And I said, can I, can I try, can I try and go natural? Alana: Like everything is going well. There is no indication of anything wrong. And it was looking good and she thought possibly, but then my son decided to stay in the breech position and [00:19:00] I was not in the place that I am in now where I would continue with a vaginal birth. I mean, I was born a breech baby vaginally. Alana: And so I found it really hard that the quote I was told was that we have lost the art to birth a breech baby or the skills, not the art. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then today I think, I'm sorry, who's birthing the baby? Michelle: Mm hmm. Alana: The mom, Michelle: Right? Alana: the mom is birthing the baby. Not you. Yes, you're assisting, but yeah, so, You know, my views today would have changed on that. Alana: But at the time, again, as I had mentioned, I, we just wanted the baby. And she did give me options to do that, like manipulation, my traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, she was doing all the things to create the space. Yeah. Everything. I had everything going. I had it at home on my toes. I was doing the [00:20:00] upside down poses, which mind you made me feel absolutely terrible. Alana: And so I just said to my husband, I can't do this. Like. This feels wrong. And and I have to resign to the fact that. He found his position and he was not moving and that's where he wanted to be. And then it was my choice to decide how then that, that became our birth together. And so we had a cesarean beautiful little boy, everything great. Alana: It all went great. And so afterwards, because of the scarring and that fear that I had around my uterus, I didn't want to fall back in a place of like dissociation and detachment from it. Like I had. Started to rebuild this relationship with my womb. And now they've just. Also added another scar. And I was like, well, I've had one baby who's to say I can't have another like, and so I went on another deeper journey again. Alana: And with my practitioner of healing this scar tissue and softening it before it has the chance to [00:21:00] really harden in preparation for the next baby. And. Michelle: And this was acupuncture or another Alana: Acupuncture at the beginning. And then it was probably for the first six months I did acupuncture and she showed me how to self massage my scar tissue. And what else did we do? There was just a lot of hands on touch. And I think her focus was to remind me that you can still have loving touch on your body. Alana: After everything I had gone through. And after six months, It got a little bit hard with a little baby cause she was in Sydney where I had found it cause it was close to where it was really hard to get up to her. And now that he was starting to move and be mobile, it was a lot harder to have a session on my own. Alana: And so then I started looking at other modalities. I thought, well, okay, I've done all the acupuncture. Let's see what else there is. And I come across a lady who did Yoni steaming and she did energetic [00:22:00] support. Consultations beforehand. And it became just a really beautiful practice where I could turn within and I could nourish myself and just steam and just visualize the blood flow going back to my uterus and everything being soft and really in that feminine essence, that feminine energy to allow that nurturing to happen to my womb. Alana: And I went weekly. Until my bleed came back, which was 14 months post as I was a breastfeeding mom postpartum. And, you know, we were kind of on this urgency, let's, let's fall pregnant straight away because of everything we had. We didn't expect it to take two years to get our son. And I'm already in my thirties. Alana: So there was like that time pressure to, all right, if we want more children, cause you know, we had always talked about having four and we're like, Oh gosh, I don't know if four is going to happen now, but if we can get. You know, on the roll, we'll see what happens. And so I had to reduce my breastfeeds to get my bleed [00:23:00] back so that we could fall pregnant. Alana: And when we decided to start consciously conceiving, so I think it was just the month of that I ended up with my bleed. I started to feel this essence, this person, this spirit around me. And it was the first time I had really started to attune into these senses. And. I just could feel this girl, this pink. Alana: I could see pink around me when when she'd just show up. And it was really interesting because the month I fell pregnant. So obviously that two week wait, I couldn't feel her. I didn't know where she was. And I was like, Oh, I feel like she's here. And I was pregnant and I didn't tell anyone apart from the lady that I went to Yoni steaming, because we'd always talk about, you know what, what do I feel like a baby might be? Alana: And I was like, to be honest, I can actually sense this female around me. And I just get these glimpses of[00:24:00] pink like a pink orb and yeah. And then it turned out I had a daughter and what was beautiful about that pregnancy, I mean, we didn't find out. I like to just wait till birth to find out what the gender of our babies are. Alana: And. I did not want to go back to the hospital system. I didn't want to be put in a place where they would just see my history and then start to implement things that then of course would lead to other interventions that I didn't want. I didn't want to be supported in that way. I knew the capability of my body. Alana: I, like my pregnancy was again, a really gentle, easy pregnancy. I mean, I was very sick, but overall easy. And. I decided to home birth. And again, that was like a huge thing. Like in my immediate community, you know, no one does that. And so I didn't want to tell anyone cause I didn't need anyone's opinion [00:25:00] to discourage me from this because I had, I think it was just before I tested on a stick and I only tested on the stick to show my husband, like I didn't, I already knew I was pregnant. Alana: I had this vision that the birth would be at home. And so I really just wanted to trust that That was again, where I needed to go and I needed to trust. And that took a lot of self confidence to be able to say, no, this is, this is what I want to do and why. And yeah, I had my daughter at home and now I always knew that like my journey was. Alana: A lesson to be learned. It was a, because if I continued on the path I had continued, I would not be the woman I am today. I wouldn't be the mother I am today. I wouldn't be making the choices I've been making for myself and my family today. And it was like a realignment, but also a [00:26:00] gift for medicine for me to be able to share with women. Alana: And, you know, I want my story to be heard, but I've also then set up my own business so that I can still be at home with my babes because I want to raise my children. And I want to help women who feel like their story is just hurdle after hurdle. And what I've learned in this, this journey is like what we see in our physical body is only the tip of the iceberg. Michelle: Oh, yes. Alana: Yeah, and like when we're looking and talking about our womb, the energetic womb, there is so much she holds and there's so much healing that needs to start there. And the first thing I like to check with women is that connection between heart and womb, is there coherence and resonance? How are they emotionally feeling? Michelle: my language. Alana: right. And, [00:27:00] and that's why I, I love listening to your podcast because I just was like, you get this.  Michelle: I feel the same way about you, by the way. Alana: And now I, I want women to like know how important it is to care for your womb and what we're seeing as manifestations on the physical side, the root cause. The reason that you may not be seeing change is not in the physical. It's in your energetics. Yeah. Michelle: 100 percent Oh my God. I mean, I'm telling you, like, I'm so moved by your story, but also it just fascinates me like beyond fascinates me. When you were saying that you're a scientist, like from somebody who came from a science perspective and background, and yet, even though you were still there, you still had your inner voice. Michelle: Letting know something was off, like the doctors didn't tell you anything was off. Nobody came to you after[00:28:00] the surgery and said, you know, something looks off. You figured it out. You knew it from the inside out. The wisdom within your body spoke to you Alana: Absolutely. Michelle: heard it. Alana: Yeah. And I think sometimes for women, if you allow that external noise to be too loud, you're going to feel it in your heart. You're going to feel it as grief, as sadness, as like, why is this happening? But that noise is too loud. Michelle: Mm Alana: And. You know, if, if all you take away from my story is that deep knowing it's okay to know that your path could be different and maybe that's your sign to go searching elsewhere Michelle: I mean, yeah, it's incredible. First of all, it takes a lot of courage. Oh, I mean, it takes a [00:29:00] lot of courage to hear something from an authority figure, especially if it's like people you're relying on and in the medical community and I'm just FYI, I'm not saying not to listen to your doctors but for your specific journey, your journey Had twists and turns and part of it did rely on you listening to your own gut and, and really getting to the bottom of it. Michelle: And you remind me a lot of a patient who came on the podcast, her name was Amy and she was in her forties. And she also was told she couldn't get pregnant with her own eggs and that she was approaching menopause. And she ended up having two babies afterwards, healthy babies. And she had this determination in her. Michelle: She was just, there was this. Kind of strength. And her voice was so loud, like her inner voice and not her voice. Her inner voice was so loud in telling her, no, no, no, no, no, you gotta, and she had this [00:30:00] determination within her that I see in you. And it's not something that is easy for everybody to answer that call. Michelle: Like it's not an easy call to answer Alana: No. And it's, it's a fire within, but it doesn't mean it's an easy path. And it's like, you have to have the courage to continue to choose, to continue to choose what you know to be true. And I had many challenges. There was many times where I was like, well, I feel like the universe sometimes goes, are you sure? Alana: Because you can choose here if you want to, because we were given choice on this, on this earth. Right. And you can choose to go this way because maybe you believe this is easier. Or keep going as a reminder, you know, just to, to, to choose and yeah, that fire and that courage, like there was a lot of times where I felt like, I don't know, [00:31:00] you know, because you don't know, there's so much unknown and the world really like thrives on structure because that brings safety and that brings knowing and this path can be so unknown and all, all you can do is put one foot. Alana: In front of the other and trust yourself, just trust in yourself, because then the pieces will start to fall and they will start to come. Yes, you may need to choose yourself, but keep choosing yourself and your baby. Because if you desire a baby, that desire is meant for you. Can you trust that? Michelle: You know what they say, there's that Rumi quote, it says, what you seek is seeking you. Alana: Yeah. Because otherwise, why would we? Why would we have that desire to do so? Michelle: I really believe that. That, thank you for saying that because I really, really believe that to be true. And I think a lot of people. learn from so many different opinions and so much of that noise, outside [00:32:00] noise, it dilutes their faith in that being true. Just because we don't have proof for something doesn't mean it's not true. Alana: Yeah. And you get to, you get to decide what's true for you. And I think that's when you come back to the medical system and your doctors is just having a place of discernment. Is this really true for you? And you know, if you can come from a place of self-trust and that self-trust guided you to go there, absolutely listen to that. Alana: Like my message is, listen and guide from within. Michelle: And when you talk about that heart, well, like there's this heart brain coherence, but the heart has. An energy field that's stronger than any other organ in our body. And people think it's all in the brain, but the heart actually has a way larger magnetic field. It has such an important role on our mind and it has such an important role on our uterus, [00:33:00]which is life giving and love gives life, breathes life. Michelle: So talk about that resonance and that coherence and what you've learned about it. When it comes to the heart and the uterus. Alana: so I want to start with a quote from Joe Dispenza that I had just recently heard, and it kind of just put the words to place of what I was feeling, and it, he says, We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. Alana: And I was like, they're the words that I'm kind of searching for. Right. Because a lot of my sensations that come through me are feelings. So I knew the heart needed to heal and healing the heart allows for the womb to heal and this relationship, this agreement between the two, like the womb holding on temporarily to [00:34:00] emotions, to. Alana: then return to the heart so the heart can process and leave our body. And so there was a lot of practices that I have incorporated and I still do them daily where I will do a little visualization and my intention is always love. And You can still have love and gratitude, even if you're feeling deep sadness. Alana: And it's not about, I don't want to be sad anymore. Let's reject that. This is grief is one of the deepest emotions you can have that has profound healing when you allow it to run its course. Michelle: Yes. Alana: And I think for women who are trying to conceive, when you're struggling, the thoughts that start to come up why me? Why is my womb not working? I can't, I [00:35:00] can't fall pregnant. I can't do this. You know there is anger, there is a disconnection and disassociation from your womb and really. In this society, we are already starting from a place of disconnection from our first bleed and reconnecting, honing in. And sometimes it's as simple as 30 seconds, close down your eyes, put your hand on your womb. Alana: You take a deep belly breath, Alana: visualizing your hands that are warm. That mama hug that you just love to feel. Wrapping around your womb. Alana: And then telling it, I love you. Thank you for everything you are doing. [00:36:00] I know you want this too. Alana: And then bringing your hand back to your heart space. Alana: Feel that heartbeat. Alana: Your own rhythm. beating in your womb Alana: and feel the love between the two. Alana: Maybe you like to envision a rope, a golden cord, connecting, vibrating, Alana: sending out this beautiful white light. That's so strong and so pure.[00:37:00] Alana: Feel it wrap around your body, Alana: feel it encapsulate you. Alana: And then on your next inhale, breathe it all back in, breathe it into your cells, every inch of your being, physical, emotional mental and spiritual Alana: and opening your eyes and practicing a simple visualization I found daily was strengthening this reconnection. It allowed my inner voice to be heard. It built trust and surrender to the process because pregnancy, birth, motherhood, it is all setting you up. It is not something that you can plan out. Alana: The key is surrender. Michelle: hmm. Oh, [00:38:00] yeah. Alana: I get reminded of that every day. Michelle: Yeah, I think we all do, even though we've been on the path for a long time, the spiritual path really, that is in the path of truth and alignment. It doesn't matter. We get reminded every single day and I can literally talk to you for hours. I mean, There's just so much, so much information, so many things, so many ahas that I felt talking to you and I really truly think that you are so aligned in, I mean, I literally think that you're channeling wisdom. Michelle: You're very much connected to that. I can feel it. I could feel the truth in your words. I can feel the alignment I feel the awareness and the knowing and the true knowing of thyself. I think know thyself that's like the key and the only way to do that is to get quiet and To connect with your inner wisdom and to hear what your body is telling you because the more you hear it The more your connection with it gets stronger. Michelle: And of [00:39:00] course I can talk to you for hours, but we don't have as much as I wish, but, but I would love for you to share how people can find you and how people can work with you. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. Michelle: are inspired, which I know they are from your story. Alana: So you can find me on Instagram at the nurtured woman. Womb, W O M B A N and currently the way to work with me is through my one on one sessions and they're energetic womb explorations for one hour where we can just dive into your current state, your desire, and really start honing into this connection between heart and womb with then obviously the opportunity to extend. Alana: But That is the point of contact. Michelle: Awesome. Well, I definitely feel you are connected to that womb. wisdom and I know that womb wisdom does actually speak to us. So Alana, [00:40:00] thank you so much for coming on here today. Sharing your incredible story, like really incredible. Like I felt it on every level of my being. It got me emotional listening to your story. Michelle: And I thank you so much for coming on today. Alana: you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

In today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Mike Berkley shares his personal journey with acupuncture and herbal medicine in fertility treatment. He highlights the value of integrative medicine in fertility enhancement. Mike explains how acupuncture and herbal medicine improve fertility by increasing blood flow to the ovaries and testes, enhancing egg and sperm quality. He also discusses the importance of preparing for IVF and the timing of treatment.    Mike Berkley, LAc, FABORM, is a licensed and board-certified acupuncturist and a board-certified herbalist. He is a fertility specialist at The Berkley Center for Reproductive Wellness in the Midtown East neighborhood of Manhattan, New York. Infertility can be a daunting journey for couples longing to start a family, which is a reality Mike faced with his wife. Luckily, she sought the guidance of an acupuncturist and herbalist who possessed some knowledge of reproductive issues. Despite initial disappointments, after undergoing acupuncture and herbal medicine treatments for seven months, the couple became pregnant and carried the child to term without any complications. Their once seemingly elusive dream had become a beautiful reality thanks to the remarkable effects of acupuncture and herbal medicine. This experience led Mike to obtain his degree in acupuncture from the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine's New York campus and his National Board Certification in herbal medicine. Equipped with the necessary license and fueled by an insatiable thirst for knowledge, Mike studied Western medical approaches and the ancient wisdom of Chinese medicine about infertility treatment. Through rigorous study and invaluable clinical experience, he developed unique acupuncture protocols and proprietary herbal formulas, tailoring them to each individual or couple seeking his assistance. Mike is also a member of several organizations, including the Acupuncture Society of New York and the American Infertility Association. He is writing a book on reproductive disorders and Chinese medicine and hosts his groundbreaking seminars nationwide. Mike has witnessed firsthand the life-changing potential these ancient practices hold for couples struggling with infertility. Together, he can help transform your dreams into reality and create a world where the joy of parenthood knows no bounds.   Website: www.berkleycenter.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikeberkley56/   For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.    The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Personal Journey 00:30 Discovering Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine 05:16 The Limitations of Western Reproductive Medicine 06:33 The Value of Integrative Medicine in Fertility Treatment 08:59 How Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine Improve Fertility 20:16 Living in Accordance with Nature and the Impact on Fertility 26:11 The Mind-Body Connection and the Importance of Mental and Emotional Health 28:48 The Impact of Acupuncture on Blood Flow 32:35 The Heart and Uterus Connection 33:49 Contact Information     Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Mike. Yeah, I'm actually really happy to have you. And mike berkley (00:02) I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:07) read about your story and I find it fascinating that you guys started out as patients, kind of like how I was. I was working in New York, really close to you, for doing architecture. So completely different life, completely different world. So I went in for my menstrual irregularities and then everything started getting resolved.   for the first time with acupuncture. And I know you guys were also moved by it with your own journey. So I'd love for you to share your story and how you got into this type of work.   Mike berkley (00:39) Sure, I'd be happy to. So, while I was in acupuncture school, my wife and I were trying to have a baby. And we couldn't. And I had, she had anti -sperm antibodies and I had, I don't remember, motility issues or morphology issues or something. And she went to a...   She didn't go to a reproductive endocrinologist. She went to a gynecologist and he wanted to do some IUIs. And then she met or heard about an acupuncturist and herbalist in New York. And she went to this one.   And the woman gave her herbs and acupuncture and gave me some   then two months later, I was I think I was working and going to school. I can't remember so long ago, but she called me. My wife called me and said that she was pregnant and I didn't know anything about medicine in any way, shape or form. And I said, how do you know?   And she said, well, I peed on the stick. And I said, well, that's all well and good, but I don't believe in that. You better go to the doctor and get a blood test. And she did. And now I have a 29 year old son. Yeah. So I got very inspired at that time to pursue knowledge in the realm of reproductive medicine.   Michelle (02:03) amazing.   Mike berkley (02:17) And so I spent many years studying Western reproductive medicine. I don't mean officially, I didn't go to medical school, but on my own, I studied a lot of Western reproductive medicine and a lot of acupuncture and a lot of herbs. And I've been treating fertility cases exclusively. Like I won't treat a neck or a back or a headache. I've been treating fertility cases exclusively for 27 years.   Michelle (02:29) Yeah. Amazing.   So that's awesome. I mean, I personally love working with fertility. I first started, it was more general, but I just love it. And the rewards are like insane. You know, when you get the positive pregnancy pictures sent to you and it's really incredible and people are shocked. Oftentimes, because they're like, there's no way. I mean, sometimes five years of nothing like Western medicine. And I think one of the common things is that people think that IVF is a guarantee. Do you find that?   Mike berkley (03:17) Of course, of course. I mean, it's, you know, our lives as acupuncturists and herbalists are very interesting, gratifying and ungratifying. I'll give you an example. This has happened to you. It's happened to any acupuncturist listening. Patient does four failed IUIs and three failed IVFs.   Michelle (03:18) Yeah.   Right. Right, or it helped me relax through the process.   Mike berkley (03:43) And then you work with the patient for three months and she does an IVF and she gets pregnant and has a baby. And then I've had patients more than one say, well, you know, it's possible that that what you did helped me. And I'm like, yeah, it's possible, you know.   Exactly, exactly. I love that one. You know, it helped me relax. So I think that I'm I think more and more individuals more more couples more women more men are becoming aware of the the efficacy and the value of You know complementary medicine or integrated medicine acupuncture herbs You know diet In the context of fertility enhancement   Michelle (04:16) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (04:34) And I often say to patients, I say, listen, you can go to the best reproductive endocrinologist in the world. I don't care who it is, but that person cannot improve your egg quality. They cannot improve your lining quality and they cannot rectify your husband's sperm DNA fragmentation. I can. So therefore,   Michelle (04:37) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Right.   Mike berkley (05:03) We should work as a team. And I'm saying this to the patient, but I'm also saying it to society. And I'm saying it to reproductive endocrinologist. The best type of medicine is integrative medicine. You can do something I can't. I can do something you can't. Let's do this. Let's try again.   Michelle (05:05) Right, 100%. Everybody has their blind spots, you know, and their strengths. I mean, we don't have the technology, we can't go in there and extract eggs. Right.   Mike berkley (05:32) That's right, but who cares? You know, a good car mechanic can fix an engine, but it doesn't mean he can make an engine. So it doesn't matter that we don't have the technology. It doesn't matter that we're not reproductive endocrinologists. What matters is, is that for an IVF to work, you need four things. You need a good egg, a good sperm.   Michelle (05:36) Right.   Mm -hmm. Right.   Mike berkley (06:00) And so the reproductive endocrinologist cannot offer a patient good eggs and good sperm and good line. In fact, there are patients that come to me and they say they have a five millimeter lining and the doctor will give them either transvaginal Viagra or something called Trentol and Neupogen. And these medications will thicken the lining and they still have implantation failure. Why? because a thick lining or within normal limits lining, a 10 millimeter lining doesn't convey that it's a good lining.   Michelle (06:31) Definitely. And of course I've asked this question a lot. I love asking questions that I can answer them too, but obviously every acupuncturist says it in a different way. So,   Mike berkley (06:38) So I think that as acupuncturists and herbalists, we have a lot to offer a patient suffering with infertility for sure.   Michelle (07:00) I'd love for you to talk about how acupuncture and herbals can help somebody who's trying to conceive.   Mike berkley (07:08) Sure. So I'm gonna kinda speak around a little bit, but it'll all make sense in the end. So blood is nothing other than a taxicab. Blood is nothing other than a messenger service. When we inhale, the oxygen gets into the blood and the body is oxygenated through blood flow.   When we eat food, our nutrient products get into the bloodstream and nutrients are disseminated through the blood. FSH and LH coming from the pituitary get to the ovaries via the blood. And so I'm gonna step back for a second and say what I say to patients.   You have a heart that's beating. It's disseminating blood throughout your body. But there are two things that are happening. Number one, that dissemination of blood is generalized. And number two, you're 40 years old. And your blood flow is not as good as it was when you were 20. And if you're not 40, you're 37 or you're 36. Same case. Your blood flow is not as good generally as it was when you were running around in the playground at nine years old. You exercise less, you do less in general, I'm speaking.   And so now to acupuncture, what acupuncture does is it improves and elevates hemodynamics, which means blood flow. And when a patient says, well, my heart is doing that, though that's true, with the utilization of acupuncture, you're improving hemodynamics to a specific area, which is the ovaries.   Michelle (08:57) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (08:58) Blood, therefore, is you're increasing the delivery of oxygen, electrolytes, nutrients, and hormones to the ovarian milieu. Not only that, but you know when a taxi cab takes a passenger to the airport and the passenger gets out, the taxi cab doesn't want to drive back to the city empty. They want to take a passenger back to the city.   It's a 45 minute trip from JFK to New York City to Manhattan. So they don't want to go back without a passenger. Well, blood is the same thing. So when you're increasing blood flow to the ovaries, you're delivering these essential products, but the blood is also picking up debris. What is debris? Debris are dead cells. Now, of course, during this conversation, both of us have lost a billion cells. They've died and they've regenerated. But what happens to the cells that die? Well, they get emitted through the sweating, exhalation, urination, defecation. This is how we get rid of toxins in the body. But again, because our digestive functions are not necessarily great, because our hemodynamics are not necessarily what they could be, by stimulating blood flow to the ovaries, you're delivering the good and helping to take back the bad which is the dead cells. So you're actually taking this garden that's not getting a lot of rain and it's not getting a lot of sunshine because the trees are like this over the garden. So when you're doing acupuncture herbs, you're cutting down the tops of these trees and you're going like this. So the garden is now getting all this sunshine and the rain is able to hit the flowers. And in a month, the flowers are joyous, beautiful, smiling, looking at everybody and winking at them and saying, hey, I'm a beautiful rose, look at me.   And so that's kind of, I think that the analogy or the metaphor is to how acupuncture improves egg quality. And the same is true with sperm quality. You're causing improved and increased hemodynamics to the testes and the same thing happens as with the ovaries. So it's the testes and the ovaries are really homologues. They both do the same thing. One creates eggs, one creates sperm and...   Michelle (11:09) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (11:23) …stimulating blood there, we're improving the quality of the contents. Now let's talk about herbal medicine. So herbal medicine is much more sophisticated, in my humble opinion, than acupuncture. Acupuncture is very sophisticated and very effective in all areas, whether you have pain or infertility. But the thing about herbal medicine is that you can construct an herbal formula that specifically deals...with the overall presentation of the patient, in my opinion, in a more powerful, efficacious manner. So for example, if you have a patient with polycystic ovarian syndrome who's five foot five and weighs 250 pounds and she's 40 years old, and then you have a PCOS patient who's five foot five and she's 29 years old and she's 110 pounds, they're both suffering with...   Michelle (11:56) you   Mike berkley (12:23) lack of proper menstruation, they're both suffering with infertility. So when you use herbal medicine on those patients, you're not just treating PCOS, treating this woman who's 250 pounds, this woman who's 120 pounds, this woman who's 40 years old, this woman who's 29 years old. So the herbs are very pinpoint accurate in what they do and how they work. And...   The beauty of herbal medicine is that one can create a very specific formula for this patient. So this patient is suffering with infertility, but she also has constipation and chronic headaches and...   Michelle (12:56) you   Mike berkley (13:05) She's got low back pain. So you can give her herbs to deal with all of that stuff. And so acupuncture is efficacious in the same manner. So really, what's the difference? So there's a couple of differences. As I said earlier, in the perspective of herbal medicine, you're taking it orally. It's internal medicine. It's having an effect on the organs, on the follicles.   Michelle (13:16) you   Mike berkley (13:34) the ovaries, on the testes, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm going to say something that's even more interesting. Let's say that you or I had a really bad headache. And we said to our partners, honey, I have a splitting headache. Could you please massage my shoulders and massage my head? It would really make me feel better. And our partners say, of course, of course. And they stand. I'm sitting in this chair and my wife comes.   Michelle (13:46) you   Mike berkley (14:03) me and starts to massage me and she's massaging my head and maybe in a half an hour I feel better. Let's retell that story. The same exact scenario except before my wife starts to work on me I take three Advil. Now what happens is instead of my headache dissipating in 30 minutes it dissipates in 15 minutes. Why?   Michelle (14:22) you   Mike berkley (14:32) because I'm being treated from the outside in, which is the massage, and I'm also being treated from the inside out, which is a three Advil. And so when you use these together, you're increasing the efficacy of the treatment. And so I think using acupuncture nerves together, they do similar things, but they also do different things, and they certainly potentiate each other's efficacy and power.   Michelle (15:00) Yeah, for it's very complimentary. Now, typically somebody comes to you and says, I'm starting IVF in a month. Sometimes I'm like, okay, I kind of wish you came here a couple of months before. So for people who are listening, if they want to prepare for IVF or really just prepare their body and their egg quality, how early...   should they come to you? Like how long does it take really for everything to take effect?   Mike berkley (15:30) So it's a great question. So again, I'm going to talk about sperm and egg. Again, the similarity is quite fascinating. It takes three months for a spermatogonia, an immature sperm, to reach a mature sperm. And it takes three months for a primordial follicle, which is...speck of dust to turn into a 20 millimeter follicle. It is the 20 millimeter follicle that the egg is retrieved from. So three months before a transfer is the, you know, is the gold standard. It's the best thing to do. But what I will say to patients, because I get this kind of situation all the time, is listen, you're having a cycle, you're having a transfer next month. That's okay. Let's start tomorrow.   Yeah, but you just told me it takes three months. No, no, no, no, I understand. But let's start tomorrow. I'm going to tell you why. If you do the transfer and it works, you've thrown out a couple of hundred dollars on some sessions. So what? I'm going to continue to treat you twice a week for 13 weeks to help prevent miscarriage. Why for 13 weeks? Because 90 % of miscarriages occur viable for the 12th week. In the event, in the most unfortunate event,   Michelle (16:29) you   Mike berkley (16:52) that the cycle fails. We've already started treating you now. So then in the subsequent cycle or the cycle subsequent to that, you'll have much better egg quality. You know, I don't know if you know Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett is one of the greatest investors in the history of America. And somebody said to him one time, Mr. Buffett, when is the best time to invest in the stock market? And he said, today.   And the point of the story is you can't really time the market. Invest if it's high, invest if it's low, dollar cost average. Invest 100 bucks every month for the rest of your life and you'll be okay. And so that's kind of like this. Invest in the treatment even though your transfer isn't a month. Doesn't work out? Okay, we've still improved follicular quality. Does work out? It's all good. I'm gonna continue to treat you twice a week for 13 weeks. You're gonna have a baby.   Michelle (17:47) Yeah. That's a good perspective for sure. yeah, I mean, what are some of the things that you see? Cause cause I feel like the way we're living right now is impacting our bodies in so many ways. And Chinese medicine, really the heart of it is living in accordance with nature, living in accordance with our own nature. And what happens is when we live outside of that and against our normal flow, that's when we start to get patterns and symptoms. So living in New York, I remember having a lot of really kind of like climbing an uphill battle because it is go, go, go. And so some of the things that I tell people who are not close to here, wanted to get coaching calls is even getting a grounding matter somehow finding ways to living in more flow. And what are some of the things that you see?   Mike berkley (18:43) So I think everything that you just said is true, real and valid. However, I'd like to say that unfortunately, and remember, this is to the listening audience. This is my opinion only. I do feel it's next to impossible to get to one's nature. I do think it's next to impossible to be really settled, really like, able to exhale. Why do I say this? I say this because the world is at war, because there is intense poverty, there's joblessness, there's crime, there's all kinds of negative things. Of course there's many beautiful things, but there's many negative things. And so how can people possibly exhale?   So it's very difficult to become kind of, you know, one with nature and one with yourself and this kind of thing. I do think, however, that even though it's difficult to achieve, that the achieving is not the goal. The trying is the goal. The journey is the goal. One will probably never reach the destination, but it's okay because through the journey one's psychic and mental and emotional and physical health can improve. So even though I don't see a path to ultimate improvement, I don't see a path to ultimate health, I do think that there is a mind -body connection for sure. It's completely unassailable. And I think that people, I don't really get involved with this kind of thing too much in my own practice. I'm very, very clinical, but that doesn't mean that I don't totally embrace what you're saying. I think people should do yoga. I think they should meditate. Listen, I'll tell you an example of exactly, I'll put a patient in the room and I'll come to take the patient out and she's laying on the table with the cell phone.   You know, this is terribly destructive to the patient and he or she doesn't understand that. And I'll say to them, listen, you have 30 minutes of your entire life that you cannot be bothered by anybody. You can just be free. You're in this room on this table with beautiful music and it's a lovely room and you're taken care of here.   Michelle (20:53) yeah.   Mike berkley (21:22) put the phone down, man, and B, and it's really hard because people need that constant stimulation. I need it. The first thing I do when I wake up is I check my phone at 6 .15 in the morning. You know, it's mental illness. It's mental illness. It's craziness. But I do think that trying to be at peace is very important, not only for fertility,   Michelle (21:26) Yeah.   It's an addiction for sure. Yeah.   Mike berkley (21:49) but for life, for happiness, for joy. And so, as I say, I don't have meditation classes here or yoga classes here, but I strongly recommend that patients do engage in those activities. And I also think people should go to the gym. I think people should work out three days a week.   Michelle (22:09) yeah.   Mike berkley (22:10) and work out pretty hard. I don't mean hard like a professional athlete, but you know, don't get on the treadmill for five minutes. Like work. You know, listen, we have this thing called liver -chi stagnation, right? It means that, you know, the chi is stuck and people are stuck. And as a result of being stuck, inflammation occurs and they're angry and they get headaches and they're bitter. Guess what happens to the stuck chi when you move, when you exercise, the chi becomes unstuck and the   Michelle (22:37) Right, yeah.   Mike berkley (22:39) Exercise makes you feel better psycho -emotionally and when you feel better psycho -emotionally, you'll be better off physically   Michelle (22:47) 100%. I remember, so when I was in New York in the craziness just over firm, you know, that's the only way you can really survive there. You have to like show that you're a good quality employee. And I remember I found Acupuncture and what I found that it gave me is this flow.   in my life where I was able to still withstand and have that pressure, but I felt more resilient. It like, it increased my ability to adapt more than anything else has. And that was one of the things that I was so amazed by. But then it really made me realize whole beings that have so many different aspects to ourselves and how one...   part, if we work on our own energetic frequency and chi, it impacts our life and it impacts our how we can think and how we feel.   Mike berkley (23:47) I agree with you. You know, another problem that I see quite frequently is, you know, there were two kinds of patients. There are patients that are very self -aware, and they exercise and they meditate and they do yoga and they eat properly.   And then there are patients that they may not be overweight, but they don't eat well. You know, they drink Coca -Cola and they eat French fries and listen, guess what? There's nothing wrong with drinking a Coca -Cola and having French fries, you know, once every two months, once a month. It's all good. Chinese medicine is about yin and yang. What does yin and yang mean? Balance. It's all good. But when you have French fries and burger and ice cream tonight, you smoke a joint tomorrow and you, you know, you don't go to the gym for three days. You know, this just...   Michelle (24:07) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (24:36) it's just going to have negative attributes. It's going to create negative outcomes, certainly physically. So I try to encourage patients to eat properly and I try to give them some type of helpful diet plan if I think they need it. But I think nutrition and diet are very important for health in general. And certainly in the world of infertility, many of the   Many of the causative factors can really be, I don't want to get too technical, but they can kind of originate with what's called free radicals, reactive oxidative species, and these things cause inflammation in the body. And if you have inflammation in the uterus or inflammation in the testes, inflammation in the testes kills sperm. Inflammation in the uterus is going to kill an embryo. So we need to be careful about what we're eating from the inflammatory point of view.   You know, the inflammation point.   Michelle (25:37) Right. Yeah. Gut health is everything. interesting how the spleen and stomach are center. That's their location. The direction is center because, and it really is, it's such a symbol of how important it is in creating blood. And actually speaking of blood flow that you were talking about before, did you ever see, there was something on Instagram, somebody took a sample of blood before and after acupuncture.   it was shocking. Like you could see it literally move everything that you learn in textbook about how it improves chi and flow. You could see the blood cells being a little bit more stuck together from the before. They're a little more stuck together and very slow moving. The after the blood cells not only are not stuck together, but they're more round.   Mike berkley (26:30) Interesting.   Michelle (26:30) They're more round and they're moving fast and flowing. They're not right next to each other. It's crazy. And that was mind boggling. And I actually, so I shared it on my Instagram. I'll forward you the link. And I shared it on my Instagram. And interestingly enough, I had a lot of acupunctures, because we all learn this in theory. That's the theory. We don't really often see this with our own eyes. So I think that a lot of   Mike berkley (26:45) Please.   Michelle (27:00) acupuncturists that saw this were like blown away. They're like, my God, this is exactly what it says in the textbook. And to actually see it with your own eyes is amazing.   Mike berkley (27:09) So I'm going to share a little story with you that's completely apropos of the story that you just told   I'm going to tell you a story that's a little bit different than what you told me, but it's the exact same outcome. So about 10 years ago or 12 years ago, there was a study done. First of all, let me talk about the uterine artery impedance index. The uterine artery impedance index is an index that determines the flow through of blood through the uterine artery.   Uterine artery at its end point has branches that come out and enervate the ovaries. So the ovaries are getting their blood through the uterine artery. And so the more patent and effective the uterine artery is, the more blood will get to the ovaries. And so there was this little study done.   where they did a transvaginal ultrasound with a color doppler. And for the listeners who don't understand that, you know, when you have an ultrasound and the doctor looks at the monitor, it's all black and white and gray. But with a color doppler, the monitor is color. You can see all color. It's not just gray. And so they did these transvaginal ultrasounds with a color doppler to determine the uterine artery impedance index. The higher the index,   the lower the amount of flow through of blood through the uterine artery. So they took a bunch of women, they did this and they wrote down the uterine artery impedance index numbers. and by the way, when they did the transvaginal ultrasound, you could either see no blood or just a little blood in the uterus, in the uterine lining. Then acupuncture was given to the patient and...   Michelle (28:37) Mm hmm. Mm hmm.   Mike berkley (29:00) 25 minutes after acupuncture was done, they repeated the transvaginal ultrasound with a color Doppler and two things happened. The uterine artery impedance index dropped like three or four points and you could actually see a red line right across the uterus. So you could actually perfectly well see evidence of enhanced blood flow into the uterine environment which   you know, really I'm talking about the ovarian environment, but you don't see it on the ovaries, you see it on the uterus. And it was fantastic. So it's exactly what you're saying, a little bit of a different study, but the same outcome.   Michelle (29:43) more specific to fertility. Yeah, that's amazing. Wow, incredible. So fascinating. I mean, it is really fascinating when we get to see with our own eyes, something that has been, you know, taught for thousands of years, and to actually see science and you know, I look also housing the mind   Mike berkley (29:45) Absolutely. Yeah. Pardon.   Michelle (30:04) that also reflect that in modern science, but the heart math and the heart -brain coherence that they're finding is pretty much proving the whole idea of the heart housing the mind.   Mike berkley (30:04) you   So I don't even, I don't know anything about this. This is all brand new news to me, but it sounds really fascinating. I love.   Michelle (30:22) Yeah.   It is. And this is why I love talking to acupuncturists. Cause you just told me something that I did not, I thought I heard about it, but I didn't hear it in that detail. And I'm learning so much talking you. So this is why I love coming together with fellow acupuncturists because I always, always learn something new.   Mike berkley (30:44) as do I from you, thank   Michelle (30:46) of course I could talk to you for   But I would love for you to   can people find you or find more about you?   Mike berkley (30:53) Yeah, thank you so course, I'm Mike Berkeley and my website is berkeleycenter .com, which is B -E -R -K -L -E -Ycenter .com. And I'm happy to speak to anybody, answer anybody's questions. There's no charge for that. And I'm a plain, simple, down to earth guy. And I'm just here to help people.   Michelle (30:55) Yeah.   Yeah. You got the New Yorker mentality that I miss that I'll be honest, the culture of New York, I really miss since I've moved. So it kind of brings me back home to like, you know, the accent and all that. So Mike, it was great meeting you. I really enjoyed our conversation and thank you so much for coming on today.   Mike berkley (31:35) Well, I want to say it was an absolute pleasure and an honor to meet you. I enjoyed our conversation so much and thank you so much again for having me as a guest. I'm grateful.

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.     https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/   https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee. Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do. Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken. Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down. Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw. Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues. Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people? Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body?  Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile. Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome. Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage. Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body. Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99. Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing. Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities. Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health. Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome. Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have. Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there. Michelle: Yeah, Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life. Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance. Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it. Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink. Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night. Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air. Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response. Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping. Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00] Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%. Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep. Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released. Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that. Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right? Katie: Carbs, Michelle: It's the quickest energy. Katie: I want. So it is crucial. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs. Katie: Absolutely. Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one. Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly. Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing. Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system. Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities. Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings. Katie: yes Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that. Michelle: Yeah. Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings. Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings. Katie: I mean, you're literally just Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that. Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up. Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense. Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth. Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely. Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately. Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum. Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there. Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine. Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes, Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at Katie: Yes. Yeah, Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care  Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both. Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us. Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love. Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine. Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics Katie: I love that Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it. Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic. Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these. Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this. Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications. Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health. Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right? Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity. Katie: So I think we have Michelle: I love Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible. Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity. Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our, Michelle: They floss too. Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day. Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties. Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too. Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like. Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall, Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand. Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact Katie: I actually don't know what that is. Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth. Katie: Okay. Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me. Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on. Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol. Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay. Katie: Oh, I love gum Michelle: strength. Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right? Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum. Katie: Yeah. Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I Katie: habit to do. Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth. Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible. Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as Michelle: I love that. Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read. Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this. Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that. Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men. Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease. Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do? Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby. Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby. Michelle: Wow. That is Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist. Michelle: important. Chinese Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done. Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here. Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation. Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured. Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging. Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting. Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out. Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence. Katie: I just got goosebumps. Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best. Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild. Katie: that is wild. Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right? Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line. Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain. Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health. Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months. Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there. Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature. Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar. Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed. Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in. Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It, Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that. Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease? Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system Katie: wish we used our brains more. In Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space. Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that. Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate. Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth. Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose. Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle. Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important. Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you? Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely. Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon. Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important. Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity

Dr. Catherine Clinton, a licensed naturopathic physician, has spent over 16 years helping people overcome their health issues. Diagnosed with two autoimmune conditions and Lyme disease while in medical school, she began the long and difficult journey of healing- a path that led to the commitment to help others to not only heal physically but to return to the relationships we evolved over millennia with for a deeper sense of health and belonging. By healing herself and patients like her, she discovered that true health comes from our relationships. Dr. Catherine has learned how our quantum biological system is intimately and inseparably connected to the world around us. Our relationship with the dirt beneath our feet, the sun, the wind, the water, the plants, the seasons, each other- that is the real medicine. Her mission is to empower as many people as she can with this knowledge to encourage the paradigm shift we so desperately need.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter):   Instagram: @dr.catherineclinton   Facebook: www.dr.catherineclintonnd   YouTube @dr.catherineclinton   Website: www.drcatherineclinton.com   The Way of Fertility is here! Be sure to check it out here www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript: Michelle (00:01) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Clinton. Catherine (00:04) Thank you so much for having me. I know we've been trying to get together to do this for a while and I'm just really excited to talk with you today. Michelle (00:14) I am so excited. I've been actually looking forward to this call for like a while just because I found you on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, this lady gets it. Like your work is so fascinating to me. I'm really into quantum physics in general. And then I'm like quantum biology, like the whole idea and just there's so many things that we're uncovering. It's kind of like the future of medicine. But also, I feel like you're very intuitive in your work. I feel like you're sort of channeling a lot of really fascinating intelligence through your work. So, yeah, that was my initial thing when I started looking at your work and the things that you're posting and sharing. And I would love it if you can share your background and how you got into this field and also how you got into it in the way that you're getting into it.   Catherine (01:10) Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it definitely feels like I've been talking about this for years and now the energy around it is just like so much momentum, right? It kind of used to feel like I was talking in an empty room, sort of talking to myself, right? And what happened was I was in naturopathic medical school. I was in my second year and it was that initiation year where... they really want to weed people out, right? So it's like, get there at 7 a .m. If you're a couple minutes late, you can't sign the attendance sheet. You have to wait another year to take the class, you know, that kind of like med school initiation, really long clinic hours. And it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis and Hashimoto's thyroiditis, two autoimmune conditions and I was diagnosed with Lyme disease. So I just was like spiraling with my health. And that's when, you know, I was in a great place to put my physical body back together, put the pieces back together. I was in naturopathic medical school. I was across the river from an acupuncture school. I was just down the hill from a very progressive, allopathic teaching hospital. And so I had so many tools to work with, but for anybody who's had a chronic illness, getting back to that, you know, productive member of society state, while wonderful to go from debilitated to being able to participate again is absolutely incredible. It still is missing a huge piece of health and vitality. And I was really struggling even after I put...the physical pieces back together, so to speak. And that's when my physician, my physician and also the one I was doing rotations, clinical rotations underneath, said you should really look at psycho neuroimmunology. And that's just a big word for how our thoughts and emotions impact our health and our biological function. And at the time I was researching mitochondrial health because I was like, oh, this is the latest, greatest, newest thing. You know, this was almost, 20 years ago, and I read an article by Martin Picard about how our mitochondria are impacted by our emotions and our state of our thoughts, our internal dialogue. And I was like, oh my goodness, this just kind of blew me out of the water and opened up the doors to quantum biology. And then I started actually reading. I discovered the early... quantum biology research from Greg Engel and Graham Fleming about quantum coherence and quantum superposition. And I was just absolutely hooked because in medical school, I was taught like it's still being taught. We're all taught this way that there's a chemical mechanical reason for illness and for health, right? It's all chemicals floating around mechanical parts of our body, that key and receptor lock where the key bumps around and randomly finds its receptor, unlocks the receptor and action can happen. And we now know that, you know, we're trillions and trillions of cells and for the amount of action that happens in a cell, researchers estimated at, you know, hundreds of thousands of tasks each second. Some researchers even say over a million tasks, right? And for that to be random, for that to rely on this bumping around and hoping to find that receptor is just mathematically not feasible, right? And so that's where quantum biology comes in. It gives us this understanding of the subatomic action happening in living systems.   Michelle (05:08) Mm -hmm. Catherine (05:18) that give rise to that chemical mechanical model, which of course that exists, but this idea that it's random, that it's chance, you know, it is just really far from what quantum biology is showing us. It's showing us that there's this intelligence, there's this language happening at the subatomic level, and it seems to be guiding what we see with our eyes, what we see with our symptoms in a doctor's office, on our lab results, right, our blood work. And so it's such an incredible perspective change than what I learned in school.   Michelle (05:56) Oh my God, it's a perspective change for life, like for what we learn in life. I mean, there's so many things like, so many things that came to mind as you were talking about, like one of them, I don't remember where I saw this, but it was something about how, like when you first start learning about science, then you start to become like almost like an atheist. You know, you don't believe in God, but the more you uncover science, it actually brings you back to God. It proves God exists and And you could say God intelligence, whatever you want to call it. But it's basically this intelligence that runs the show of ourselves and tells it where to go and what to do. And there's just so many fascinating things. I mean, I think the biggest mystery is like how does stem cells become what they end up being? How do they differentiate when they all have the same? So the whole idea was like, oh, DNA. Well, they all have the same DNA. What is it about the DNA in the blueprint? that changes the way it expresses and that environment aspect of it. But it's just, it's fascinating.   Catherine (06:57) Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's so fascinating. And I've just been, I've been sort of obsessed for the last couple of years about the fields, right? The electromagnetic fields and how our cells communicate with electromagnetic frequency, right? Just like a language. and we're able like tuning forks to kind of tune into that. And just like a tuning fork, if you strike a tuning fork that is set at a certain frequency and you have another one that's set at the same frequency, it will pick up that tone and it will start singing that same note, right? It's this communication of resonance and frequency between those two tuning forks. Or if you go into like a piano shop and you press one key, like the C key on one piano, all the C keys on all the other pianos will start to ring in harmony with that. It's absolutely amazing. And we know that our cells are communicating with electromagnetic frequency. I mean, Michael Levine has done incredible work showing this electromagnetic   Michelle (07:56) Oh my God, I love that. That's amazing.   Catherine (08:17) language, right? He was doing work with, I think it was salamanders, maybe frogs, I think it was frogs. And he was trying to figure out just what you were talking about. We know how our DNA makes proteins, right? We know that, but we don't know how those proteins, how those cells become an ear or become an arm, right? That we still don't know. And he was mapping out these electromagnetic frequencies that would happen when a frog would grow a leg, right? And so then he took cells and worked with embryos and he would put that same frequency in different parts of the body and that body would grow that arm or grow that face. And he took these amazing pictures where you can see the electrical imprint of like a face or an arm. So this idea that these fields of electricity are guiding, you know, our very anatomy is just absolutely mind blowing. And the fact that we don't acknowledge that, right? It's just like, oh yeah, that happens. You know, we grow an arm. Yeah, we have no idea how, but we're not really interested. It always like floors me that this research isn't more well funded because it really comes down. to the fundamental nature of what it means to be alive on this planet. It's incredible.   Michelle (09:48) It is. And what I find, and especially just being so intrigued by the mind for so many years, and one of the things that I found is that even if there's a false concept, if your mind is so attached to it and that becomes something that you really feel like you've believed in, it's like a death, a little death letting go of that, even if it's false. So people really hold onto it. And that's why there's this medical dogma that happens. And people really hold on to concepts. They have a hard time letting it go. It's like letting a reality shift and it could cause anxiety for people. Like I found that that's like a thing.   Catherine (10:32) Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, that story I told you where the physician I was working under and who was my physician when she was pushing me to look at my emotional reactions, I was like, oh no, don't you have an herb? Don't you have another lifestyle treatment? Or, you know, I did not want to go there. It's hard to change. It's hard to look at things we don't want to look at.   Michelle (10:45) Yeah.   Catherine (10:58) But that's science, right? I mean, that's how we've gained insight into what it means to be human, what it means to be alive on this planet. And if you look at the history of it, it's always disregarded, right? It's always somebody saying, I think it's this, and everyone else saying that new idea is crazy and you're crazy, you know? And so here we are with these,   Michelle (10:58) Yeah. Yes, it's true.   Catherine (11:28) sort of isolated researchers and scientists doing their work, finding incredible discoveries about light and electricity and water and frequency. And we've yet to adopt that on a mainstream model. But I see that it's coming. I'm hopeful.   Michelle (11:48) I think it's coming from the people. That's kind of my thing. It's not a top -down thing. Now, you know, it's funny because a lot of what Dr. Joe Dispenza talks about is that the best kind of organism is it's a bottom -up. It's the group of people, the collective. And so the collective wants it and they're going to make it happen. Catherine (11:50) Mm -hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's how I got into this was looking for a way to be healthy, right? A way to live my life without these day in, day out symptoms and suffering. And so I think everybody is looking for that too. And on another level, people are looking for a better explanation of life. This idea that it's just chaotic and it's random and it's   Michelle (12:22) Yeah. Yes.   Catherine (12:37) indiscriminate and it might strike you down at any moment. It's not a safe place to live, right? That does not bring me a sense of ease. And I think so many of us are looking for a different explanation. I think quantum biology offers that. Michelle (12:43) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Oh my God, I just love, I mean, there's so many things I love about it. And I eventually I'm going to talk to you about like possible books that people can read, or maybe we should just do that now. And then we'll come, come back to some other questions that I have. But what are books for people who don't really know what this is, but it seems intriguing and there's something about it. They're like, Hmm, that really sparks an interest. What books can they read or what, you know, how can they find out more about it?   Catherine (13:21) Absolutely. Well, what we've just been talking about with electricity sort of guiding life, the body electric is just a classic from Robert O. Becker. And that's just a wonderful read, easy to read and just mind blowing. And that I think that electrical charge is really being guided by the water within us and the water lining ourselves. And that has a very,   Michelle (13:31) Bony one. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (13:51) profound negative charge, and that comes from it being a different structure. And so the fourth phase of water by Gerald Pollock is just another hands down, I'm always recommending that. And when it comes to quantum biology and this idea of quantum phenomenon at play in living systems and looking at how electrons and protons, photons of light, phonons from sound kind of guide our biology. Life on the Edge is a wonderful introduction to the science behind this and how that sort of played out in the early 2000s and how it's starting to explain our protein function, our enzymes, how birds migrate over long distances without any landmarks or any previous knowledge, right? The first time they do it, they know exactly where to go via this quantum entanglement with the magnetic field of the earth. And so those three books are sort of a wonderful introduction into what quantum biology is and how it's impacting living systems like our own bodies.   Michelle (15:10) Amazing. And I remember seeing in the Krillian photography, they look at like almost like the it describes the phantom limb where there's some kind of energetic body. And they think that that might be what is causing the cells to differentiate. There's this electric energy. And I don't know if body electric talks about that, but it's kind of like this, this almost, I think it's called a vital body, right? Or the vital body or like a what, what other terms you know?   Catherine (15:40) Yeah, like the subtle body, people call it often. Yes, this energetic blueprint. And that's exactly what the body electric is talking about. And these researchers are actually measuring that field and then using it to regrow limbs and fingers. And they were doing this in animal studies, of course, but we know that this happens with humans as well, right? We can regrow a fingertip or a finger if it's lost, especially under the age of five. And this work was being done with human stem cells as well. And so it's just fascinating. And to start to understand and kind of unravel.   Michelle (16:18) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (16:33) That language of frequency just gives us a whole different perspective of what's happening in our body and in the world around us.   Michelle (16:42) You know, I think about this and I knew this story about under the age of five, you can regrow the tip of a finger. What is it about under the age of five that kids have that we lose after the age of five? That's the question, right? Are we too invested in this material world? Is that what causes us to not have that ability anymore?   Catherine (16:55) Yeah. I think that we, for lack of better terminology, we just sort of leak electricity, right? We lose electrons as we age, but especially in our modern life, right? Like when my kids were young, I could not keep clothes on them. I could not keep shoes on their feet. They were...   Michelle (17:13) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (17:26) outside naked, running around, you know, absorbing all those electrons from the earth and getting that charge from the sun. And they're just really much more vital when it comes to healing, right? Their energetic patterns are just so much different than us as adults. And I think that has to do a lot with...   Michelle (17:28) Yeah, totally.   Catherine (17:53) our modern day life, you know, us adults usually are waking up with an alarm clock. We are feeling groggy. We roll out of bed, have some coffee. We're in a house lit by artificial lights. We are living in temperatures that are artificial and separate us from the seasonal temperature changes. And then we go in the car. with our windows up and then we go in the office and we work all day and we come home and we're like, I deserve to watch Netflix, I'm exhausted. And then we go to bed. So we've completely divorced ourselves from that relationship with the sun and the seasons and the weather and the wind outside and the dirt beneath our feet. All of those things that we evolved over millennia with were really divorced. And what I see in my practice is that,   Michelle (18:18) Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (18:45) Kids are becoming more and more affected by this. And this epidemic of disease in childhood is something that I did not see when I started practice. It was something that was really unheard of 20 years ago. And now it's commonplace to see a child with chronic skin conditions, autoimmune allergies, mast cell. I mean, all of these things are just,   Michelle (18:48) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (19:15) so prevalent where they weren't a couple days ago.   Michelle (19:17) Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, also just even the toxins that we're exposed to, there's just so many things, so many aspects of it. And I go back and forth because there's some things that are so out of our control. And then sometimes I'm like, wait, is what is going on within me impacting what's out? Because that's really what this is all about. It's what the ancients have always brought us back to the internal. And we could fix the external from the internal from like meditating and from really connecting to that divine intelligence. And then if we all do it collectively, as we know, it can actually decrease crime rate because we've seen that, uh, I wonder if that's something that more of us should be at least considering and to bring that connection to that divine intelligence, that intelligence that we are all connected.   Catherine (19:55) Yeah.   Michelle (20:10) that really is within ourselves.   Catherine (20:14) Absolutely, absolutely. I say all the time, you know, we don't end at the barriers of our skin, right? And back to those electromagnetic fields, if we think about it, they sort of go out in this toroidal shape. And so that electromagnetic frequency, energy, information, we emit that and it also mingles with the fields around us, picking up information and energy and bringing that back in.   Michelle (20:20) Yes.   Catherine (20:44) So we are intimately connected with the fields around us and they impact us, right? And you mentioned some beautiful research on this idea that we can change the state of society if we have a different state, right? So like the research looked at a group of seasoned meditators, right? They were... have been doing this for years and years. And they asked them to become coherent in lack of a better term, right? They became very meditative and concentrated on a feeling of peace and love and unity. And we saw this in New York, we saw this in the Middle East, that crime rates and wartime violence. were decreased and the more people that were added to the group, the more those rates declined. And they looked of course for confounding things, right? Is it the heat or is this impacting it? Is that impacting it? And they couldn't explain it. And so it's this beautiful example of what HeartMath Institute talks about all the time, about how coherence in our body.   Michelle (21:46) Amazing.   Catherine (22:05) how when our brain and our heart are coherent, it impacts our biology in a whole different way, right? We're innervated in our frontal lobe, we can make calm, rational decisions that impacts our nervous system, our immune system, our hormonal system. And that coherence, when we have that, can actually impact the people around us, right? And affect their level of coherence, affect their nervous system. It's just...   Michelle (22:31) Yes. Yeah. It is. It really is. And I remember when I first got into meditation, I used to meditate at night. That was like when I did it. And I found that when I meditated at night the next day, people were acting different towards me. And I'm like, is it me? But whenever I meditate, I feel like people are nicer to me, like at work and everything's going easy. And I'm like, I'm almost like, and then, and then of course, when you get more into it, you start to pick up on subtleties that you just are not.   Catherine (22:35) It's just plain blowing.   Michelle (23:01) typically familiar with, and one of them being you feel like you can bend time. That's the whole saying of like, if you have time to meditate, meditate for 20 minutes. If you don't meditate for an hour, you will bend time, like literally.   Catherine (23:16) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And for those that don't have that experience, I think we might all have the opposite experience, right? Where you wake up and you're tired and you don't wanna get out of bed and you stub your toe and you drop your breakfast and you spill stuff over your work project and just that energy starts to snowball. And it's the same thing in reverse or inverse.   Michelle (23:40) Yes. Catherine (23:45) that you're talking about, right? That energy feeds upon itself and the world around us feeds on that too. It's a really incredible thing to experience. Michelle (23:46) Yes. Yeah, definitely. It's almost like we're part of this mesh. And of course, we're touching that mesh, so our energy will impact it. Catherine (24:06) Absolutely, absolutely.   Michelle (24:09) And I remember you talking about water. So almost like, I forget what the term was, but it was almost like activating water or like not, there's a word for it. It's like increasing the vitality, but it's like charged water.   Catherine (24:27) Yeah, well, when it comes to water, water is just such an underappreciated substance in our world, right? So we have water that we drink, and so water in a glass can become more energized. Some researchers are calling it more coherent or excited, right? But then we also have that water inside of us that I alluded to before. And...Our cells, our cell membranes, our fascia, our DNA, all of these things are hydrophilic, they're water loving. They're not hydrophobic and pushing the water away. Water can come right up to that surface of the cell. And when it does, the interaction between that cell membrane and the water create this structuring of water. And Gerald Pollock, I mentioned his book, The Fourth Phase of Water, was the first to actually identify this under a microscope. And researchers had been theorizing about it for decades, but he was, or over a century really, and he was the first one to actually identify it underneath a microscope, that it is a different phase, a different structure than water that we drink in a glass, right? And we're used to those three phases, right? That solid ice, that steam vapor, and that liquid water. That liquid water can take different forms, and this structured water in our body becomes gel -like, it becomes viscous, and it actually creates, Gerald Pollock proposes, it creates this hexagonal lattice, almost like a honeycomb, right? Of hexagons. And...it becomes structured in a way he describes as H3O2. And if we have any math -minded people out there, you recognize, well, we're missing a hydrogen. And that's exactly what happens. As that structured water builds inside of us, it kicks out a positively charged hydrogen or a proton, and it creates what researchers are calling a proton wire or a proton rich zone. And the separation of charge between the two. The structured water against our cells and tissues is negatively charged and that proton wire is positively charged. And just like a nine volt battery, it creates energy. And this is another thing that Professor Pollack found in the lab. He put an electrode in that negatively charged water and one in the positively charged water and it was enough to light a light bulb, right? So this starts to explain some of that biological action in our body that we couldn't explain before.   Michelle (27:04) Wow.   Catherine (27:12) the ability to communicate almost instantaneously, the ability for our heart and circulation to work the way it does. It just is sort of this incredible understanding that we didn't previously have. And the idea is that this lattice hexagonal structured water as one sheet forms an at acts as a template for more sheets to form. And what's building that? What's creating those layers and building that structured water? Infrared energy, right? So we're right back to your question of why we don't heal as fast as children. Well, we're separated from the biggest source of infrared energy on our earth, right? The sun and movement. creates infrared energy. Snuggling is one of my favorite ways to increase our infrared energy, right? There's many different ways, but there's this water battery inside of us via this different structure of water inside of us. And we see something kind of similar in a glass of drinking water, that there are what researchers are calling coherent domains.   Michelle (28:06) Yeah.   Catherine (28:30) and those coherent domains can have a different charge. And when they go from coherent to incoherent or from excited to a ground state, right, these are all different terms that the research is using, they give off energy that can be used for action, right? Can be used for communication, can draw a molecule in for an interaction. So it's not this random. chaotic world that we live in. It's this beautiful frequency language and water has such a huge role to play in that.   Michelle (29:09) Wow, it's so interesting. And there's this thing where it creates almost a vortex. I've seen those like containers that supposedly they make the water more alive. Now I don't understand the science of that. So do you know anything about that?   Catherine (29:26) Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of ways that people are structuring, right? So Victor Schauberger was an incredible, I think he was actually a forester who was noticing how rivers flow and that they're never just flowing straight. There's always these eddies and vortexes and that's creating an energetic charge, right? So when you are   Michelle (29:42) Mm. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (29:54) vortexing or stirring or creating that circular motion. You're adding not only that infrared energy, but oxygen to the water, which can create that structure, right? Putting water out in the sun or in the moonlight. That's something that ancient indigenous cultures did all the time, right? We hear about that in the Vedic texts.   Michelle (30:19) Yeah.   Catherine (30:23) in Mayan scriptures and it's something that holds true in this idea of structured water, right? Some people are using electrical conduction. There's a company out there, Viva Water, that is doing amazing research with these coils and using the coils to excite the water and create the structure in the water. And,   Michelle (30:33) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Catherine (30:53) It's really new, but has been talked about for so long and for centuries really, when we look at some of the ancient wisdom out there. And when we look at the new research around it, we find that there is research about how it's beneficial for plant growth and agriculture. It's useful for livestock and animals. And there's also research to show that it's beneficial for humans. And so, Michelle (31:16) Oh, interesting. Amazing. Catherine (31:23) My patients, because I talk about this so much, I get so many questions, right? And my bottom line is there are so many structuring water devices out there, right? And they can get really, really expensive. So what I tell people is if we're hydrated, then we structure the water within us, right? We structure the water with that infrared energy tending to our mitochondrial health. Michelle (31:44) Mmm.   Catherine (31:49) which also create infrared energy, movement, getting out in the sun, safe exposure to the sun. All of those things have the ability to charge that water battery within us. So as long as we're hydrated, as long as we're drinking clean water, with a little bit of mineral content, so that good old osmosis, it can get into our cells and hydrate us, then that's where I really tend to focus.   Michelle (32:11) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (32:16) when it comes to just general blanket statements. Of course, I have done other things and dived a little deeper with different patients and people, but just generally speaking, I think we can get such incredible benefit from just being hydrated and then tending to that so -called water battery in our body.   Michelle (32:41) Fascinating. I mean, I have like a million questions. I have another. So of course I think about messages in the water and how water responds to vibration and it's been measured and visually could be seen in the crystals that occur from certain sounds, music, but also intentions, words. And it's fascinating. And then you think to yourself, well,   Catherine (33:03) Yeah.   Michelle (33:08) we're holding all of that in our body and how is our body responding to all these frequencies. And then I got into sulfegio frequencies and also sound bowls and also mantras that have been done for like so many, thousands of years. And they've been talking about this for a long time and how certain mantras have been shown to make a difference. So those specific seed mantras repeated even just in our minds. compared to random words impacts the body different. So they see that those seed mantras actually have a healing effect, a very calming effect versus they used other words like crick or things that are very like not that way. And it actually causes an adverse effect. So just to show that those specific sounds make a difference.   Catherine (34:01) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And sound is fascinating, right? It has such a huge effect on us. We know that it structures water. We know that it has so many different effects on us, our nervous system, our vagus nerve, our oxytocin and melatonin. And when we think about it, they're pressure waves, right? They're these pressure waves that are working through a medium and creating these collisions. of molecules. And when that happens, they create light, they create infrared energy. So we kind of come full circle back to, oh my gosh, it's that language again, right? It's that language of frequency again. It's incredible.   Michelle (34:44) It really is incredible. And there was another question that I had quantum entanglement. That's another really cool thing. So this is something that I do. I always talk about this because of course, even when we're separated from something that we've already entangled in, that's like the quantum physics. when we're entangled into something, which means it could be a cell in our body or something that we're connected to somehow, when we get separated from that, the connection doesn't end. You continue having that connection and that impact or relationship where you could almost communicate with that. So they've, I believe you probably know more about this. I think that they took a cell from a liver and like moved it far away and then saw that when they were like, operating on the liver, the cell reacted. So that's like an example of quantum entanglement. So when people go and do IVF, I work with a lot of fertility. So when they do IVF, I tell them, send love to those embryos, those eggs. They are responding. And whether you think it's true or not, just do it anyway, because it doesn't hurt.   Catherine (35:55) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That idea that our thoughts can have an energetic imprint is absolutely fascinating. And I think it's clear in the research, whether we're talking about water memory with like, Luke Montagnier and this electromagnetic frequency of a cell of DNA being held in the water. being able to record it and actually send it to a lab in another country. And that frequency was played back. I know. And that frequency was played back in that other lab to a glass of water with nucleic acids. And those nucleic acids are like the building block of DNA. And they coalesced and formed almost 98 % identical DNA just with the playing of this frequency.   Michelle (36:28) So fascinating. Wow. What is this? This is a... Okay.   Catherine (36:51) Luke Montagnier, and he's just one of many, what people have termed water memory research, right? But this idea, I think it's pretty clear. We're not 100 % clear on how that's happening, but we are clear that water can act like a mirror, right? It can be imprinted.   Michelle (37:05) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (37:20) it can hold information. And so bringing that into our everyday lives is a beautiful practice, I think. And I agree with what you say, even if it doesn't, even if we figure out that it's actually something else, what a beautiful practice that is, right? To really sort of cultivate.   Michelle (37:35) Heheheheh Mm -hmm.   Catherine (37:45) our relationship with water, with the world around us, with our thoughts.   Michelle (37:51) Yeah. And I think that the reason why we don't optimize our minds and our bodies the way we could is because we just don't believe it with all these emerging studies and the science that's coming out, it's showing us, wow, there's just so much more to us than we originally thought. It's like, oh my God, my mind is blown. Like I love this stuff. I can nerd on this all day long. I really, really love this information, but the water memory makes me think about crystals too.   Catherine (38:25) Yeah. Yeah. Marcel Vogel has done amazing research with not only crystals, but water as well. Right. And so, and all these things we're talking about have a liquid crystal capacity. Right. And that sounds so like, oh my gosh, what is she talking about now with her crystals? Right. But, but this is something that we're very accustomed to. Right. The reason we can talk right now and I can see your beautiful face is because, of these screens, right? Our smartphone, our computer, our TV screens utilize liquid crystal technology. And it just means that it's a mesophase between a liquid and a solid, and it is aligned as a collective. So the molecules are aligned in the same way, in the same orientation. And when an impulse of electricity comes through,   Michelle (38:57) Yeah. Mm -hmm.   Catherine (39:22) they shift in a different way, allowing different light to come in to the screen and show these images, right? The same thing applies to our fascia, our DNA, this water that we're talking about that lines our cells also have a crystalline property. So it's just, it's really mind blowing when you start to see all the different pieces of it.   Michelle (39:49) It truly, really truly is. And then I think about also those crystal water bottles where they have crystals inside the water so that the water can submerge into quartz or rose quartz or many different ones.   Catherine (40:06) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I'm so grateful that researchers are continuing to research this, even though it is not funded by the powers that be, right? But it's such an incredible insight into life on this planet. And so I'm just really grateful that this work continues and can't wait to see.   Michelle (40:19) Mm -hmm.   Catherine (40:32) what we find next. And I agree that it seems to be this full circle return to what those ancient indigenous cultures always spoke of. So I can't wait to see more.   Michelle (40:44) Oh my God, me too. I definitely second you on that. And then also just for people listening, like if people want to really impact the body through the mind, I mean, you've really given us so many great things. How can we use our intention and like really our thought patterns to impact our cells?   Catherine (41:09) Yeah, absolutely. I think that HeartMath Institute, again, has done amazing work with heart coherence exercises and this idea of creating and feeling a feeling of gratitude or love and bringing that into our heart center and cultivating that feeling of coherence and what that feels like. And I've done this for years and years. I have their professional software to use with patients. I've used it with my family for years. And what happens is after you cultivate this practice, it becomes a feeling you can sink into, right? You don't have to go through this whole exercise and meditation. You can sink into that feeling of coherence. And it's one of my favorite things to do in an incoherent conversation or room or interaction, right? It's just to like, okay, whoa.   Michelle (42:02) Mmm, yeah.   Catherine (42:06) I'm going to get coherent here. I'm going to hope that it brings some coherence to our interaction. Even if it's just me, it's absolutely worth it. So there's lots of coherence exercises on YouTube that are a wonderful place to start. Gratitude practices, just making space for our emotions, even if they aren't gratitude, right? Allowing those emotions to come and and make space for them and allow them to flow through us. All of these things can really rewire that emotional regulation that we have and that those thoughts in our body, right?   Michelle (42:39) Mm -hmm. Yes, definitely. I think keyword regulation, it's all about regulation. It's not about like stopping stress from happening. It's about adapting. So it's kind of like allowing our bodies to do their thing because they're, again, they're charged with this intelligence that they know what to do ultimately when we get quiet and we use these tools. And I think that once you do find that coherence and you feel that coherence, You learn, like you said, you learn how to look for it. It just becomes very intuitive.   Catherine (43:20) Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. It's such a beautiful practice that ripples out to so many different layers of our life. Yeah.   Michelle (43:29) And I will say, I have to mention something because you talked about like when you're in an incoherent situation and you get coherent, that works. Cause I have had incoherent situations or people like from family trigger it and I felt triggered. And I said, you know, instead of reacting, I'm just going to meditate. I'm going to sit with my feelings. I'm going to sit with this energy. And once it did settle, which to me settling is kind of equating to becoming more coherent. things started to really feel more at ease in my body. Interestingly enough, get on conversation again, it was like everything was resolved so easily. It was like effortless. So I was like, this stuff works. And so I started to do that moving on. I was like, instead of being reactive, I'm just going to be proactive and kind of sit with myself.   Catherine (44:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a beautiful practice that has so many different uses and our health is just one of them, right? So, yeah.   Michelle (44:29) Yeah. Yeah, awesome. So, oh my gosh, I mean, I can literally talk to you for hours, but of course we don't have, we are bound by reality time. But if people are hearing this, and I'm sure like everybody's fascinated by this conversation, because it's just, it's just incredible information and you're such a wealth of knowledge, which I so appreciate and love because   Catherine (44:41) you   Michelle (44:55) There's so many things out there that we don't even realize. There's so much research that we don't even know is out there. And to hear that this is actually being looked at is mind blowing. So for people who are interested in either working with you or finding more about you, how can they find you?   Catherine (45:13) Yeah, I'm Dr. Katherine Clinton everywhere. That's my website, Dr. Katherine Clinton. That's where you can find me on social media, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube for longer videos. I just love to share this information because I think it helps point us in a better trajectory than we're currently on. So that's where you can find me.   Michelle (45:34) Yes. Oh, love it. Okay. Dr. Katherine Clinton, this was more amazing than I expected and I was expecting it to be amazing. So I am so thankful that we had this time to talk and I'm so thankful for the work that you do and the information that you are getting out. And this is really amazing. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Catherine (45:58) Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love the work you're doing and it was just a pleasure talking with you today.      

In this episode, I'm going to be talking about five things that could be sabotaging your fertility efforts to conceive. And a lot of these things may not be so obvious to a lot of people,    I will be covering:   Why too much of a good thing isn’t so great for your fertility health (you’ll find out what I mean!) The importance of sleep and how to regulate it if you’re having trouble. Why many fertility disruptors can be hiding in your kitchen and ones that even fooled me! Important times to eat during the day and why!   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   For more information on fertility diet, you can pick up my free fertility diet ebook in the notes. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertility-diet   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/   Links mentioned in this episode:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5457858/ https://www.ewg.org https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350886/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400274/   [00:00:00] Could these five things be sabotaging your ability to conceive? In this episode, I'm going to be talking about five things that could be sabotaging your fertility efforts to conceive. And a lot of these things may not be so obvious to a lot of people, So stick around.   So number one is over exercise. So while exercise is something that is really good for the body and it can actually improve fertility health. If a person is overweight or if they have not exercised before, it can improve your lymphatic movement, your blood circulation. And increase your overall energy. However, if you over exercise, too much of a good thing is not so good. So while exercise is amazing for the body, in some cases, over exercise has been shown to adversely impact reproductive health. So studies have confirmed that over exercising could [00:01:00] impact menstrual cycle irregularities and ovulation. or, amenorrhea, which is when your period completely stops.   There was one study done where women underwent a really intensive training for military camp. And what they found was that 68 to 98 percent of them who started out to have regular periods, ended up becoming irregular after the training. So what's been observed with over exercise is that it impacts the luteal phase. So it can cause luteal phase defect in the menstrual cycle, which means that the second part of the cycle, which is after ovulation is shorter than it should be. And the reason that is so important not to happen, is because it's a really important time for implantation to occur. And if it's too short, it doesn't allow for that pregnancy to take place. Over exercise can also increase cortisol and cortisol tends to compete with progesterone, [00:02:00] which is why it can impact the luteal phase since progesterone is the main hormone. that increases around the luteal phase. And it's a really important hormone, not only for pregnancy to occur, but also to support pregnancy, they also found that ovulation hormones such as GNRH, FSH and LH, as well as estradiol were suppressed, and that led to an ovulation, which means that they were not ovulating. And that is why over time it can either make the periods irregular or take away the periods altogether.   And as you know, you need to ovulate in order to get pregnant otherwise you're not going to have an egg to fertilize. So that is one of the reasons why overexercising can really impact the body is because it causes a lot of stress on the body. When the body experiences a lot of stress, it also increases cortisol, which is a stress hormone. Cortisol tends to compete with progesterone, which is a really important [00:03:00] hormone, but also the body overall is in a deficit of energy. So this could be also under eating. or over exercising, then it doesn't have enough reserves to ovulate and to have the menstrual cycle or to put it towards reproductive health. And I've talked about this before, is that reproductive health really, in essence, is a reflection of overall health. And in order to have a robust reproductive system, the body has to have enough energy and reserves in order to support it because pregnancy takes a lot of energy. And if it doesn't have enough energy and also enough blood to support it, then it is going to put that off to the side and worry more about survival because it's going to. focus whatever energy it has, if it's at a deficit, it's not going to spend too much. It's going to conserve its spending, which in essence, the spending is towards reproductive health.   It's going to conserve the spending so that it can focus more on overall health. So here's another thing [00:04:00] that I'm going to mention is that really this depends on the person and the body weight. So if somebody , is overweight and has a lot of reserves and energy that's really not being used and has been stored, then they benefit with a higher intensity workout. And even with that, not too much, but they can afford to do that because then their body will increase its energy and also decrease insulin resistance. So it actually can help in certain circumstances to increase it a little bit, nothing overdone, but like a little bit extra exercise in certain cases is important. But for women who have a normal body weight and they over exercise, then that can bring them at a deficit. So you look at it like an energetic bank account. We don't want to decrease that bank account, that reserve of energy, because we need that reserve in order to reproduce. So in order to create new life, you're kind of having an extra, an extra something, it's important that the body's able to support that.   So what is considered too much? So [00:05:00] anything more than seven hours, seven hours or more of aerobic exercise per week and moderate exercise is ideal, which is one to five. Hours per week and one to five hours per week has been shown to improve fertility. So it's important to keep it within a healthy range and not do too much. And nowadays, a lot of the gyms, they do very high intensity workouts and it's not the end of the world. If you like to do that once in a while, however, doing it every single day and sometimes even doing two. different times of exercising or just really overdoing it that can definitely tax the body and when the body feels taxed and There's too much of a deficit.   It starts to feel anxious So the body itself starts to feel like it needs to go into survival mode and what happens cortisol goes high Because it's a stress on the body So yes exercise can be a stress and a deficit of energy can feel like a stress Because then [00:06:00] the body's like, oh what's going on? I need to like, really. Hit the reserves or slow down my energy output and what that equates To is that we can't worry about reproducing right now so typically that is how over exercise can impact the reproductive health so Number two is plastics and i'm sure you've heard about this plastics. Yes. We know that it's not great for the body obviously but a lot of people don't realize that plastics can be hiding out in places that you least expect it. So the obvious ones are plastic bottles, you'll see that everywhere. A lot of people avoid them. You'll see people with glass bottles or stainless steel bottles. And listen, I know this, but sometimes I use plastic bottles when we're away. So all of what I'm saying doesn't have to be done to an extreme. And if it's too stressful, then that causes a whole other chain of events in the body as well. So it's not that you have to [00:07:00] completely avoid it, but for the most part, there are certain things that you really should watch out for. And first things first, did you realize that a lot of sanitary pads Have plastic and that is in the very precious area of your body and you're in there and your blood and you're open when you're having your period, your lining is more open and you're more susceptible to absorbing things when you have your period.   So it's important to find sanitary pads that are using organic cotton or a non toxic. And there are a lot of great. Brands out there. Same thing with tampons. You're sticking 'em up there. And you wanna make sure that it doesn't have any toxins or endocrine disruptors or chemicals that can impact your hormones. Here's another one. This is something that a lot of people don't pay attention to, and it was including me until I found out, and I was shocked when I found out, was tea sachets. And they're so pretty looking. I remember when regular normal [00:08:00] bags of tea it went from something really flat and boring to something that's three dimensional and really pretty and shiny. And guess what? The reason why it's shiny is because it has plastics and that plastic and that sachet can leak out a lot of nano particles of plastics in the hot water. Because as we know, many plastics are not supposed to be microwaved.   Well guess what? The heat itself leaches plastic. So when you put that in really, really hot boiling water, what do you think happens? It gets into your whole tea that you're about to drink. On a similar note, you'll find a lot of coffee makers have plastic. You'll find coffee pods that are plastic, and you're putting it in this hot coffee maker, and they're in a plastic container. And the coffee machine itself, or even like the machine that doesn't have the pods, goes through. Plastic. So it's hot water that goes through plastic. So those are things to pay attention to. Even an electric [00:09:00] tea kettle, a lot of them have plastic on the top. So there are ones that are just made with stainless steel. Those are things to pay attention to. Another thing that is very , commonly used, and I didn't pay attention to this right away.   And I knew this stuff are cutting boards and a lot of cutting boards are made with plastic. So that's a whole other thing. And you're cutting on those boards and you're cutting tiny pieces of plastics and putting them in your food and then taking that and heating it up.   So imagine infusing plastics into your food and why is plastic so bad? it's because plastic is an endocrine disruptor. It has chemicals that disrupt your hormones. And BPA was one of the chemicals and it was focused on a lot. And then they had other plastics, which is a marketing thing. Other plastics where they said BPA free. Why? Because they found out BPA was very much [00:10:00] impacting hormones, but not just hormones, but it also contributed to birth defects. So imagine this is just one that has been discovered, but there's probably a lot more when something leeches into your food, it's just not good.   You don't want anything leeching in your food. You want tools to stay tools and not to eat your tools. So it's important to have. Materials that are not going to leach and that can withstand the heat.   Here's another one. , it's a shocking one because again, this totally bypassed my mind. I never thought about this, but have you ever thought about those disposable coffee cups? Yes, they're made of paper, but what causes that paper not to crumble? And to get wet plastic, so there's a plastic lining that prevents the hot water from degrading the paper cup around it. So that is plastic that is getting exposed to very hot water so this is another thing that most people[00:11:00] don't realize, but it actually does leach out nanoparticles of plastic. And again, the endocrine system in the body is super sensitive and it works like a thermostat where it finds that something. It gets high, it's going to lower its own ability to produce it.   So a lot of times plastic can confuse the body and the body will think it is an estrogen. It's called xenoestrogens and it can cause the body to get confused and that can cause a cascade of events, not so good events that can impact your reproductive system. So what can you do? So I know this sounds overwhelming at first but all you have to do really is just take out some time at first and Eventually, it's gonna be a lot easier once you come up with a plan So take some time look through your kitchen and see what kind of products are possibly leaching or possibly not and to get help with that you can visit ewg. org and I'll have [00:12:00] that in the notes below. And that is a great resource. They look at different products. They look at different, chemicals and they rate products based on. How safe they are and how non toxic they are. So it's a great resource that is easy to get. And there are a lot of other apps out there that you can find as well. I remember think dirty was a great one. You can find, different products and look them up and see what is good and what is not so good.    But EWG is a great resource that you could pretty much look up anything. And they also have EWG certified products that you can find that they have looked into and saw that they were safe and they're safe enough where they are ready to put their stamp behind it. So once you do a little homework. On that, it's going to get a lot easier because then all you do is just reorder certain products and the prices are not that much of a difference and it's just so worth it because ultimately the price for your reproductive [00:13:00] health is higher than anything else.   So, number three, inadequate sleep. It sounds obvious, you know, sleep is important, but people don't realize just how important it is. Besides not being able to function with sleep, there's so many other things that sleep does for you that we don't even realize, especially for our reproductive health and our hormone balance. And it also goes back to that whole energy deficit. It's important to have enough energy for your body. And one of the ways that we restore our energy is through sleep. So the sleep wake cycle or circadian rhythm impacts the menstrual cycle and the ovulatory function. Think of this as a pulse. So it's kind of like a pulse from nature. We get the pulse of lights and then we have our own pulse where we have our own rhythm , of rest and awake.   In the morning, we'll have a rise in cortisol at night. We have a rise of melatonin. And so there's this pulse that happens within our body within our 24 hour clock. And that pulse ripples [00:14:00] into our menstrual cycle and our own internal rhythms.   So sleep is vital for hormone production, but it's also vital for lowering cortisol, because if you don't sleep enough, cortisol rises. And as we know, cortisol likes to compete with progesterone, so it can really impact your menstrual cycle function.  Keep in mind that you want to balance out sleep. So you don't want to sleep too much because sleeping too much isn't great either Sleeping too little isn't great. Anywhere from eight to nine hours of sleep per night is ideal so what can you do? In order to have good sleep hygiene, you want to get some sunlight early in the morning because one of the ways that our brains know night from day is by light. So when you perceive the light during the day, that anchors your circadian rhythm and helps you sleep at night and produce more melatonin at night.   Another thing that you can do is start to dim the lights as it gets closer to evening. So you want to dim the lights a couple of hours before [00:15:00] you go to sleep, or just make them a little lower, nothing too bright. And if you are in front of devices, you can get Something called blue light blockers, which are sunglasses. Well, they're not sunglasses, they're glasses that block out the blue light and they make everything look yellow. And that helps your brain because the blue light actually wakes up your mind and it makes you think that it's daytime. You might also want to have your sleep time routine. So things like diffusing lavender oil giving yourself a little self massage, reading a book, having some warm herbal tea are things you can do to ease yourself into better sleep.   So number four, and I see this a lot in my practice and I never hesitate to let my patients know. I just don't love it. And this is wearing your radiation. I see this with smartwatches or people putting their phones on their bodies so here's the thing when it doesn't have wires, it's got waves.   So the wires help the energy [00:16:00] to move, but then if it doesn't have that, it's got waves and those waves impacts your own energetic body. This isn't good for men or women. Cell phones have been shown to increase radiation and they emit invisible waves that your body does perceive on an energetic level. When they're close to our bodies, we are receiving that wave. We are absorbing those waves. These waves have been shown to influence your sleep, and they've been shown to influence your brain activity as well.   And I will link to that study in the notes. And TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, talks about our bodies and how they run on this vital life force energy So this energy that we have, it responds to our environment, and this is one of the reasons why nature is so beneficial. And when we have a disruption of that, of something that is not really natural and is foreign to the body and the body doesn't really know what to do with it, it disrupts your energetic patterns.  So yes, [00:17:00] technology can make things very convenient, but it comes with a cost, and it's important to protect your natural energetic frequency. So what can you do? So one of the things that I recommend is keep your phone outside of your room.   And if you have it in your room as an alarm clock, turn it on airplane mode. And if you absolutely can't do that for whatever reason, keep it away from your bed as far as you can. Also avoid putting things on your body that are cordless, that run on energetic frequencies, that are invisible.   Another thing that you can do is grounding. So putting your feet on the earth or on a grounding mat can help absorb those energetic frequencies in the body. So it's one way to clear out our body's frequency and also walking outside, being in nature, having that connection with nature and really connecting, even touching trees, because trees are, if you look at them with their roots in, they go into the earth too.   They use that energy that the earth provides. Something else that I [00:18:00] recommend is shungite, it's a type of stone that has a lot of carbon, it's carbon rich, and it's been shown in a study with rats to lower radiation in the body,  and because it's carbon rich, it absorbs and neutralizes the radiation. So lastly, number five, and this is a huge one, is skipping breakfast. So from an Ayurvedic perspective, when the sun comes up. Our bodies are primed to digest, so the sun reflects our internal state of Agni. Our fire increases as it's daytime, so our bodies are primed to eat.   And skipping meals, especially breakfast, which is a very important meal to prep your body so that it has energy for the day. It can increase cortisol as well. So again, this is a third thing that can increase cortisol and cortisol competes with progesterone, a very important hormone for conception.   Skipping breakfast can also lead to weight gain. And there was a study that was done observing college students that were skipping [00:19:00] breakfast and it's been shown that young women that were skipping breakfast had a correlation with menstrual cycle irregularities. I will put that study in the notes as well. So Ayurvedic practices encourage eating during the day and slowing that eating down as the sun goes down.   So during the day, and especially in the afternoon, that is when the body is primed to eat its largest meal. So our own internal acne, which is our digestive fire, is increased by responding to nature's fire, which from 12 to two is the highest when the sun is out.   So unlike what is frequently done with intermittent fasting, which tells you to skip breakfast. And by the way, was mostly studied on men and not women. And. Instead of skipping breakfast to do that, you can actually, if you'd like to fast fast when the sun goes down. So three or four hours before you go to sleep is ideal and it helps you to have better [00:20:00]sleep and it allows your body to rest fully. in that fasting state so that it's not focused so much on digestion, which takes a lot of energy. And then you can focus more on hormone balance and all the benefits that you can get from restorative sleep.   So what should you do? So I often suggest eating a balanced breakfast that includes proteins, healthy fats, healthy carbs, and fiber. So an example can be Eggs and spinach along with an avocado smash on buckwheat toast or full fat yogurt because full fat dairy is better. And has been shown to be healthier for fertility health with berries and granola and nuts and seeds. So there you have it. Those are five things that can possibly be sabotaging your fertility health. For more information that can help you improve and boost your fertility health, be sure to subscribe to this podcast.   Thank you so much for joining me today [00:21:00] and I'll see you next time.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Briguglio, a fertility health expert, shares her passion for empowering patients and addressing the challenges of unexplained infertility and overreliance on IVF. She emphasizes the importance of comprehensive testing and addressing root causes to improve fertility health. Dr. Briguglio also discusses the interconnectedness of physical and mental health and the significance of individualized testing in the initial consultation. Additionally, she highlights the importance of iron and ferritin levels and addresses the challenges of vegan diets and cholesterol.   In this conversation, Dr. Samantha Briguglio discusses the role of cholesterol and inflammation in health. She emphasizes that cholesterol is not the villain it is often portrayed to be and that it is needed for hormone production. Dr. Briguglio advocates for a balanced approach to diet and lifestyle, focusing on sleep, diet, and movement. She encourages individuals to find their own natural path to healing and emphasizes the importance of empowering people with information.   Takeaways Comprehensive testing and addressing root causes are crucial for improving fertility health. The physical and mental aspects of health are interconnected, and addressing both is important for fertility. Individualized testing and a holistic approach are key in the initial consultation. Iron and ferritin levels play a significant role in fertility health, and vegan diets may present challenges in obtaining necessary nutrients. Cholesterol is not the villain it is often portrayed to be and is needed for hormone production. Nourishing the liver and eating enough fiber can support healthy cholesterol levels. A balanced approach to diet and lifestyle, focusing on sleep, diet, and movement, is crucial for overall health. Empowering individuals with information allows them to make informed choices about their health.     Dr. Samantha Briguglio is a licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor and the founder of Walk the Natural Path Hormone Health and Fertility Care.   Dr. Briguglio has a passion for helping women achieve their wellness and/or fertility goals, and she treats – and teaches – her patients from a mindset of natural healing that treats the root cause of their symptoms.   Website: www.walkthenaturalpath.com   Instagram @walkthenaturalpath   Facebook: www.facebook.com/walkthenaturalpath   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Passion for Fertility Health 04:09 Passion for Empowering Patients 07:07 Challenges with Unexplained Infertility and Overreliance on IVF 11:03 Importance of Comprehensive Testing and Addressing Root Causes 16:35 Interconnectedness of Physical and Mental Health 24:06 Importance of Iron and Ferritin Levels 25:56 Challenges with Vegan Diets and Cholesterol 26:52 The Role of Cholesterol and Inflammation 30:05 Nourishing the Liver and Eating Fiber 35:03 The Importance of Sleep, Diet, and Movement 37:34 Finding Balance in Diet and Lifestyle 43:20 Empowering People with Information 45:30 The Inspiration Behind Walk the Natural Path   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Brigulio, right? Brigulio is how you pronounce it, or Sammy, right? Awesome. Dr. B, awesome. So first of all, I love your Instagram. I'm going to say that. You guys got to check out her Instagram. It's going to be in the episode notes. I kind of want to lead with that because she has fabulous content, really rich with information and tips.   Samantha Briguglio (00:05) Yes, you did that nicely. Or Dr. Bean. It's easier.   Michelle (00:25) for fertility care and health. And before we get started, I would introduce yourself and also share how you got so passionate in specifically fertility health.   Samantha Briguglio (00:39) Yeah, well, thank you so much. It's really fun to have a platform like Instagram to share all this stuff with and help educate people. But hi, I'm Dr. B. Virgulio, Samantha Virgulio. I actually just got married. So legally, my name, I just changed my name. Thank you so much. It's been really, really fun. But I am keeping Dr. B for business purposes. So you can always remind me, remember that.   Michelle (00:54) Congratulations.   Samantha Briguglio (01:09) I'm Dr. B, so you don't have to worry about any changes. But how I got infertility, I feel like it's kind of a long story, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible because this also has to do with how I got into natural medicine, which actually stemmed from when I was a child. I was pretty sick as a kid. And I was pretty sick.   Long story short, my mom really fought for me and found natural medicine. And I went from being on like oxygen treatments like two to three times a day. Yeah, it was pretty crazy to being a total normal kid who played a bunch of sports and just loved running around and just basically natural medicine changed the trajectory of my life. And so I became super passionate about it. Went to college, was kind of like, eh, I don't wanna go to med school. That looks really hard.   Michelle (01:38) Oh wow.   Samantha Briguglio (02:00) trying to find other avenues, but I always got brought back to natural medicine. I was like, this is just where I'm supposed to be. Actually wanted to go into pediatrics originally and ended up not doing that because I wasn't able to get enough training, like hands on, like one-on-one with kiddos. And I just felt like that was really irresponsible. It's like all of a sudden started a practice where I was working with kids and I didn't feel like ready or trained enough to do that. And...   In my last year of school, I actually found a fertility course. It was like an extra like, I don't know, $600 on top of all the other loans I was taking out. So I was like, oh, this looks fun and interesting. I fell in love. Like I just fell in love. I actually, the person who wrote the course is Dr. Jacqueline Chassie at the time. She just changed her last name. I guess it's a few years now. Seamonton, I think it is. If anyone wants to find her, her courses are great.   Michelle (02:44) Wow.   Samantha Briguglio (02:56) but Hello Fertility is her Instagram actually. But she is an amazing teacher and I went on to join her year-long mentorship in fertility after I graduated, which obviously kind of like changed the course of my life and career. And I just felt so in love with it. Part, I was actually really good at it, right? Like sometimes like you're just good at something or not. And I was like, I don't want to be a jack of all trades anymore. And I just felt like I...   Michelle (03:01) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (03:25) my intuition just went very hand in hand with the fertility practices, treatment, and just diving into that and learning more. I loved it, I enjoyed it. And then later on, I'm talking to my mother and my grandmother, and I'm telling them how I'm so drawn to this, and I find out my mom went through her own journey with miscarriages and loss, and then my grandmother, took her 10 years to conceive, I'm like, no wonder I'm drawn to this. I'm supposed to help all these people. My family had this struggle, so like.   Michelle (03:51) Wow.   Samantha Briguglio (03:55) Now I get to help and get back. So kind of a long story. I try to give the most important pieces, but there it is.   Michelle (03:59) That's incredible.   Amazing. No, it's interesting because my mom had secondary infertility with me. tried for a while.   So she had a really hard time. She also thought she was going to lose me at different times, like lost a ton of weight. So it's kind of interesting that you say that. And it's pretty wild because it does kind of hit home.   I don't know, I do believe that subconsciously we can almost feel something in ourselves. There's just certain things that call to us and we just feel like this is it. This is what we're supposed to do. And I totally understand what you're saying. It really, really resonates with me. So that's cool.   Samantha Briguglio (04:38) Yeah, right, you just keep getting pushed down a path where eventually you're like, okay, I'm surrendering, this is what I'm supposed to do. Like that's basically what happened to me.   Michelle (04:48) Amazing. Well, you're so good at it and I can feel the passion. I really can. That's one of the things that I love Instagram. I have to say, I mean, with social media, it's like a blessing and a curse, right? But there's so many amazing things about social media because you're able to connect with people in a different way and get to know people. And people are able to share stories and information. You can get tons of information on Instagram, especially it's really big in the fertility world.   So I feel like there's just so much content, but you can really feel a person's passion and also just drive to learn and provide quality information. And I find that with your account, it's actually one of my favorite accounts, I'll be honest, because it teaches me and this is where I love it. I'm like, when I feel like I'm getting, as a practitioner, I'm learning so much, I'm like, I got to have them on the podcast. I got to pick their brain.   Samantha Briguglio (05:42) You're so sweet. Thank you. I feel like, yeah, no one's ever told me I run short on passion, that's for sure.   Michelle (05:42) For my guests and for me.   Well, it works for you and it works amazing. And so we were talking actually in the pre-talk about certain things that we feel really passionate about. And as practitioner, I find, and I know that you're great because we talked about it, that usually your passion, it's like the P, right? The P, because P for passion and P for pissed off. It's very fine line between the two because   Samantha Briguglio (06:15) R-heh!   Michelle (06:19) The things that we're passionate about, we've also been pissed off about. Meaning, for me, it's like I'm being told that you can't do something. I've always had that even in my life. I'm like, no, screw you. I can do it. Don't tell me I can't. I feel that passion with my patients. When people tell them they can't, and then I see that they can, and I'm like, I can't   why are you telling them they cannot do it? I don't like that. It pisses me off, but I feel very passionate about empowering. So you feel like that too. We talked about a couple of things. So I'll let you have the mic.   Samantha Briguglio (06:57) Yeah, yeah, we talked about two main things, right? I think the first one was the unexplained infertility. That diagnosis drives me nuts. Because I probably said a couple bold things about it on Instagram before, and one of them that I felt like it was lazy medicine. And I feel like that seems harsh, but it's kind of the reality of it, right? Because I'm like, you're being lazy. You're not doing any more tests, you're not trying to figure out like what could be this underlying cause, you're just saying like, oh, the things that are obvious are all good. So we don't know there's it's unexplained. And so that drives me nuts.   Michelle (07:35) It feels like you're putting it back on the patient. That's what it feels like. It feels like, oh, well, we don't know. So here you go.   Samantha Briguglio (07:41) Yeah, 100%. And then, you know, leading to the other thing that we kind of talked about is that then it's like, okay, well, we don't know, so IVF is your only answer. That drives me nuts. I think IVF is amazing. I think it has a time and a place. I think it has helped a lot of families, especially with, you know, certain diagnosis, especially anatomical ones, but like to be like you have unexplained, let's do IVF, or, you know, we haven't even pulled your progesterone yet, but we don't know what else is wrong. So like, let's just go to IVF. Like it just...   Yeah, talk about getting heated and passionate, which just drives me insane, because I feel like it's unfair and you're not doing your duty to your patients and it's at the end of the day, kind of lazy. Yeah.   Michelle (08:22) Yeah. And I'll tell you, um, I feel like there's this common misconception. I feel like that it's almost, I almost want to say it's due to marketing because we have been conditioned to believe that if we pay an arm and a leg for something, it's a guarantee that we're going to get the best of the best. And I think that that's what it is. People think that it's a guarantee to go through the IVF process. And I've actually found, and again, same as you, I completely agree.   Samantha Briguglio (08:39) Yeah.   Michelle (08:52) that IVF's incredible. It's an amazing thing to have. It's amazing. The technology's beyond. I remember going and doing acupuncture for a transfer, and every time I go, I'm beside myself on the incredible opportunity that so many couples have. So 100%, yes, for that. However, in some cases, I've actually found that my patients have had many failed IVFs.   retrievals and transfers. And then they went on and did better getting pregnant naturally at an older age in their forties. So like that kind of, it challenges that whole idea or mindset that it's a guarantee and it's like the only option for some people. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that.   Samantha Briguglio (09:40) Oh yeah, I've had many patients that have tried multiple IVF things like three to four even, and come back and get pregnant naturally. IUI same thing, a lot of IUIs and then they'll get pregnant naturally. And they're like, I don't really get it. I'm like, it's because we had to treat the root cause. Like one of them that really stands out in my mind is that they had actually got health issues and everyone was like, their hormones looked actually pretty decent. Even their A quality wasn't bad, but their gut was like not okay. Like   not okay at all. Like diarrhea episodes daily, which is that's, that's not a healthy gut. And I was like, Oh my gosh, what? And so we treated and we treated for a little bit and they started to heal and started to feel better. And then all of a sudden, like a couple months later, like boom, pregnant and healthy pregnancy. And I just tell, like, it's just a testament to like, the reproductive system can be fine. But if something like your thyroid or your   Michelle (10:10) Mm-hmm.   Oh wow.   Samantha Briguglio (10:40) your other systems that we have that make our whole body, right, is impacted. That can cause issues. Your body sometimes doesn't want to, you know, carry another life if everything isn't okay.   Michelle (10:54) Yeah, totally. And so you mentioned actually a really important one, gut health. Western medicine is amazing in what they're amazing. You know, everybody has their own toolbox and like things or specialties. And so that's not something that's typically looked at or like, you know, tested. They'll do like, they'll look at like ultrasound, they'll look at like   Samantha Briguglio (11:09) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (11:14) the tubes, they'll look at like the anatomical, they'll do the blood work, the hormones.   And obviously, when they come to you, it's a whole other detail of testing. So let's talk about some of the things that are often missed in conventional medicine that you look at that they may not know about.   Samantha Briguglio (11:36) Yeah, I'll definitely talk to that. I do also wanna say like some things are also best in combination. So I love natural medicine and I think it can do amazing things, but a lot of times also like a combination of like conventional and natural is also really amazing. I've won, like for example, endometriosis patient that it's been really beneficial for them to have both, right? They have like the laparoscopic surgery done and now we're working on inflammation and reducing all these other things, but.   Michelle (12:02) Right.   Samantha Briguglio (12:05) they're feeling so much better. So like I said, I can get heated about some things, but I also am very appreciative of all forms of medicine. It's just like, we all, we just have to stay in our lane and also know that it's okay if there's, if someone's taking from all different types. If anything, that's good, right?   Michelle (12:14) Yeah.   Yes. I always say like a team, a well-rounded team with all their different strengths.   Samantha Briguglio (12:32) Exactly. So I just wanted to say that too. But when it comes to things that I look at that are going to be different, I mean, who I feel like the list can be kind of long, actually. I mean, I asked from everything like, what are your bowel habits or your bowel movements to your, you know, what's your gum health like, do your gums bleed a lot to, you know, do you have headaches, musculoskeletal pain, we focus a ton on stress. And it's not like the type where it's like, oh, you're stressed, like, just don't stress, right? No, we like figure out like,   root cause of that stress. And if that root cause needs to be explored more, it's like, okay, do we bring another person onto this team? Obviously we focus on a ton of diet and lifestyle habits. I just ask about them. And then we talk about what we can improve versus what we don't need to improve. Thyroid health, like I said, the list can kind of go on and on, but it can be from anywhere from like your daily habits to environmental exposure, you know, a job at the workplace. I actually see a lot of blue collar men.   Michelle (13:14) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (13:32) I find that to be very common, either blue collar or very like high stress jobs are a lot of men that I see for like sperm count and quality. And you know, like I said, I feel like the list could go on and on. There's always kind of something and I kind of say there's like the most obvious things, which to me are like diet and lifestyle, gut health, like thyroid health. And then there's like the small things like anti sperm antibodies and you know, like an immune flare or   Michelle (13:48) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (14:00) you know, skin conditions or, you know, maybe some of the things that seem a little less obvious, like reproductive microbiome. Uh, and there's kind of almost tests for all of this now. It's just also, it can't be really expensive. So like I said, I like to start with like the really big layering things, make sure those are good before I move on to the smaller things.   Michelle (14:12) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I mean, there's so many things that I definitely want to talk about with what you just said. Like one of the things, you know, it's interesting how people are saying, oh, just stop being stressed. Sometimes you're stressed because your body's stressed. Like if your body or your gut's off, it's going to impact your mind. Well, in Chinese medicine, we learn about how everything's so interconnected. So like how your body feels if your body's not getting the nutrients it needs, it's going to feel stressed. I mean, have you ever felt hangry? You know that like impacts.   Samantha Briguglio (14:41) Yeah.   Michelle (14:50) immediately or if you're not getting enough sleep, if you're not getting good sleep, that's going to impact your stress levels. So it's so intricately connected. And when you have that calm, or even your gut health is better, your mind starts to feel better as well.   Samantha Briguglio (15:06) Yeah, I love that analogy of have you ever felt a hangry? I think that's so perfect. I haven't heard it, but that's so good. Like, yeah. Like sometimes if you're not, no, you don't even know sometimes you're not even not feeling good, but it could be manifesting as an emotional response or something. I know I was feeling a little extra stressed out and I myself did a gut health test on myself and I was like, whoa. Like honestly, I would expect more physical symptoms, but I think mine were manifesting a little bit different. And I'm like, wow.   Michelle (15:14) It's like perfect example, right?   Right. Well, that is such a good point that you bring up because I think that, like for example, my patients who are sensitive to gluten, they end up feeling really well after removing gluten, but not for the reasons they think. Like they say, if I eat bread, I'm fine. I don't feel bloated or anything like that. But with food sensitivities, it doesn't necessarily have to show up as digestive discomfort.   Samantha Briguglio (15:49) Yeah.   100%.   Michelle (16:01) And I think that that's like, you know, so that's like one example of how things can impact you, you don't even realize that you could have something and that has nothing to, like, you're not going to feel it directly as that. It could show up as headaches or low energy. It could be so many things.   Samantha Briguglio (16:17) Yeah, brain fog, anxiety, joint pain. Joint pain's a big one that everyone just brushes off as like musculoskeletal issue. And I'm like, no, that's like an inflammation issue, right? Like, why are you? Like, so yeah, no, I, for sure.   Michelle (16:24) Right.   Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. So how do you figure out like where you start with the testing? Like when you first see people, I mean, I'm sure it has to do with a lot of what they'll tell you.   Samantha Briguglio (16:42) Yeah, so, you know, initially, depending if I have like a single visit or I see a fertility for two. So I see, you know, people individually, but I see the couple together, which also I think super important. I feel like one person always seems to get ignored. Like there's never like, let's treat both. It's like, oh, there's a abnormal semen analysis. Let's treat the guy. And then like the female side's forgotten. Or, oh, so this person has endometriosis. Let's make sure we focus on that. And then to see the male sides.   Michelle (16:53) Yeah, that is.   Samantha Briguglio (17:10) forgotten. So it's like, I really like the fact that fertility for two. Honestly, it's mostly for affordability that I do the fertility for one just because if we can try to do something, but I always think, you know, treating both is the best. But when it goes, sorry, back to your question. So when I see people as either 60 or 90 minute visit, depending if it's one or two, and we ask   I mean, I ask a lot of questions. First, I just kind of give them the floor. I'm like, share your story with me. Like, tell me, right? I think intuition's so important. And a lot of times, like couples end up telling me what I need to hear in that first part, because they're just, they don't even know it's like this most important thing, but I'm like, whoa, like that was huge. Like, okay, writing that down. Then I ask a lot of questions that like, will branch off of what they share with me. And then we dive into, you know, family history, their own history.   Michelle (17:53) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (18:05) you know, general review of systems, which basically means checking in with every, from like head to toe, every single system of the body. And we have them answer questions like, are you bloated? Yes or no, right? On the female side of things, definitely diving into the menstrual cycle, like a full dive in. Usually it takes us like, sometimes 15 to 20 minutes just to talk about the cycle, which probably seems like a lot, but like, no, I ask a lot. I ask like questions from like, what size are your clots to   Michelle (18:27) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (18:34) how many tampons do you fill to tell me about all of your symptoms and like the timeline that you have them within your cycle. So we really take a deep dive into that. Um, and then, you know, from there I kind of compile, like all their symptoms, come up with the ideas for the labs that I want to draw. And then based off symptoms and labs, we form a treatment plan. Um, based off all of that.   Michelle (19:00) Are there some common labs that you usually, almost for everybody use, or one test that you typically feel like everybody should take? I know it's kind of like a one-size-fits-all, but...   Samantha Briguglio (19:12) Yeah, you know, no, for sure. Right? Yeah. Like, I know what you're trying to say. You're like, I know it's individualized, but what are labs that are for everyone? Yeah. So yes, and I tell a lot of people that right, because I'm like, you can go get all these basic labs, but I might be asking for you to get other labs based off what you tell me. So just be prepared to go twice. So a lot of time, they just have people wait to come get labs. So they're not going back and forth. Because that takes time. And I'm like, I'm like the person that like, I just want to do all at once.   Michelle (19:18) Yes.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (19:41) Um, but there's going to be the classic, the day three of your cycle. So third day of bleeding and then seven days after a predicted ovulation labs, the day three ones are going to be like the estradiol, the FSH, the LH, the seven days after ovulation would be progesterone. Um, usually with like the day three lab, I also order, um, like a CBC, a CMP. So that's like your, your blood counts looking at red blood cells, white blood cells, the CMP is kind of looking at kidney, kidney liver.   Michelle (19:41) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (20:09) and then like lipid panel looking at like cholesterol. So just like those basics are always really nice. I do, I used to wait to order insulin, but now I'm just starting to do it more for everyone just because there's just been, like it's really hard to guesstimate who's gonna be having elevated insulin because I've ordered it on some people that I'm like, I just feel like I need to order it. And then it comes back super high. I'm like, okay, they are not a typical candidate for insulin.   Michelle (20:21) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (20:36) But like I ordered it and they have like an insulin of 24, which is like way over my range of what I like to see it in, right? So I kind of started doing that one a lot. Obviously a thyroid focusing on like the TSH, free T4, free T3, thyroid antibodies. And then another one I actually also really like, vitamin D, cause that can be in relation to like miscarriage and loss. So just making sure that's elevated in general.   Michelle (20:37) Bye.   Yes.   Samantha Briguglio (21:06) I do an AMH if they haven't gotten one done. That one, obviously I wouldn't get for guides too, but so far all the other ones that I've listed can also be for men. And then another one that I think I would do for a lot of people would also be ferritin. So ferritin is a lot lower in a lot of people now. It's the storage form of iron. It's something that...   Michelle (21:24) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (21:32) the more research I've done, the more I'm seeing that, they always talk about iron being too low and can cause like a bunch of issues in pregnancy and then also to try to conceive, but people forget that ferritin is a storage form and if it's lower, usually that means that we are actually low, we're giving all our storage to like the active form. And so we wanna make sure that's elevated enough and there's a lot that can go into that, but that's been another one that I've been   Michelle (21:56) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (22:01) doing a lot of research on lately and most people, it comes back super low. So it's just kind of where I just started doing it. I used to only do it. Yeah, they ignore all the time. And it's something that I would only do for those who had like a heavy menstrual cycle or history of endometriosis or like a gut health issue where they had problems of absorption. But now I'm just like starting to do it more often for everyone because.   Michelle (22:06) Oh, interesting. It's actually something that a lot of people ignore. They like totally overlook.   Samantha Briguglio (22:24) Again, it's like most, a lot of people are having it super low. So I'm like, okay. And with ferritin though, then you have to go into, sorry, I'm like totally like going on a rant here, but I'm like, I have to finish it out. Yeah. Well, but I'm like with ferritin it's nice too, because first you can treat it with like iron and like vitamin C, right? Like see if that's, that's the culprit. And then you test it and if it's gone up, usually that is the issue, but it can also be due to like   Michelle (22:34) Oh no, I do the same thing. That's how I always think. I go everywhere.   Samantha Briguglio (22:52) Like low ferritin can be due to chronic inflammation or an underlying like disease or like virus or bacteria in your system that you need to figure out to treat. And so sometimes I'll just do the iron first and then we can go to the other piece if we, if it's not working, cause that means that there's definitely something else going on.   Michelle (22:57) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I mean, interesting, you know, talking about iron. What I find interesting about it, and I remember like listening to a podcast and they talked about how it's better to have things like beef liver, like through foods, because it has a well-rounded combination of nutrients that helps iron absorb better versus when you're just taking iron and sometimes the body doesn't know what to do with it. And it just kind of, it almost gets toxic, the amount of iron because it's not.   Samantha Briguglio (23:40) Yes, yes, it's totally can.   Michelle (23:42) Yeah, so let's talk about that because I think it's really important to talk about because people might be like, oh, you know, if that's what it is, let me just take iron. But like, that's not always the solution.   Samantha Briguglio (23:53) No, you're totally right. I mean, obviously like a beef liver on eating more meat cooking with a cast iron pan There's the good old fat. There's the good old fashion iron fish like there's so many different things you can do um some people Usually I give iron to people who have a hard time incorporating like meat or have a hard time cooking like it's very individualized Right, like it's you kind of have to meet the patient where they're at um, but things that I will recommend for iron and   Michelle (24:00) Right, yeah.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (24:20) Just clarification, this is not medical advice. This is just things I like to do in my practice. But I like to do actually, there's a lot of studies on dosing iron every other day actually is helpful for absorption, pairing it with vitamin C. So that either means like eating an orange or getting a supplement that has vitamin C in it or taking vitamin C with the iron. That's gonna, and those things make a big difference, right? So they sound little.   Michelle (24:24) Yeah, yes.   Samantha Briguglio (24:49) A lot of people worry about constipation with iron and that's where they're like, oh, that can be an issue too. So if you just eat it, it'll be better. Eating it's always gonna be better. I'll never take away from that. But just cause we're also on the side of supplementation, there's different forms of iron. And I like an iron bisglycinate form that's actually absorbed a little bit easier and usually doesn't cause constipation. I say usually because I had to get a constipation one time. I was shocked, but it did.   Michelle (25:14) Mm hmm.   Okay. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (25:17) And so that's where I'm like, let's just really focus on like cooking with the cast iron and iron fish and like the, let's have, let's eat meat, right? Like, let's try, I mean, the leafy greens, people talk about that all the time. They can be helpful, but they're not digested. They're just, they don't, they're not in our body. Yeah. It's not the same.   Michelle (25:26) Yeah.   It's not the same.   And then on the other hand too, like, I mean, I have like one patient that...   Her doctor said, stay away from eggs, stay away from red meat, because your cholesterol is high. So I wanted to talk to you about that, because I know that there's like this school of thought that just avoid all the things that have cholesterol and you'll be good. Or why is the cholesterol in there in the first place? Could it be covering up an underlying inflammation? Because in Ayurvedic medicine, they talk about like, vata pitta kafa, I don't know if you're familiar with like the different elements.   Samantha Briguglio (26:04) Oh yeah, oh yeah.   Michelle (26:06) Yeah, yeah. So when something gets really inflamed, they say kafa, which is a little bit more of that moist, heavy substance, comes over to protect. So the same thing with amyloid, with Alzheimer's possibly. Is it because, does it come in to protect something? It's like this coating, same thing with cholesterol. So does that come in to coat the walls because there's inflammation?   Samantha Briguglio (26:33) So I feel like I have to answer a couple other things before I answer that question. One of the things is I don't think cholesterol is the villain that it used to be. So there's a lot of studies that say like, more cholesterol is better than not enough cholesterol. And cholesterol is needed to build, it's a building block for our hormones and things like that.   Michelle (26:47) Mmm.   Samantha Briguglio (26:52) cholesterol is needed. People villainize it so much, but even the bad versus the good, the HDL is the good, the LDL is the bad, we still need LDL cholesterol. These things our body needs. One of the theories, and it's a more recent one, but it's still a few years old now, is that it's not actually the amount of cholesterol that's an issue. It's more related to if there is inflammation or not.   If you're saying, on one end you're like, is the cholesterol being there as like a protective thing for inflammation? Or is cholesterol being that elevated not as terrible as we think it is, but we need to make sure that like the inflammation is monitored and reduced? That's always like a big question. And then another one is like looking at ratios. Like cholesterol ratios are actually the most important thing, right? So,   Okay, we could have elevated, you know, LDL or total cholesterol and triglycerides. But what if we have like an HDL that's like in the eighties or 85 or something? That's to me, if we have a cholesterol that's even like, you know, it seems to be extremely over the limit, but we have this really strong HDL, like maybe it's not as big of an issue as we think it is. Right.   Michelle (28:10) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (28:16) Also a lot of times instead of eating things that have less cholesterol, I usually just encourage eating more fiber. So fiber actually binds with cholesterol and then we just poop it out. So like instead of like limiting all these things, I'm like maybe you're just not eating enough fiber. Maybe it's the other thing. Maybe it's not that you're eating too much of something. Maybe it's a lot. Maybe it could be either a combo or maybe it's you're not eating enough fiber, which most people don't. Right? Because fibers and like veggies and things like that.   Michelle (28:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (28:44) So it's like maybe we just need more fiber, nourish the liver a little bit more, and then our cholesterol issue goes away. So sometimes it's kind of a combo. Sometimes yes, it might be accompanied by the inflammation. Maybe is it the chicken or the egg, right? Is it the inflammation that's causing cholesterol or is it cholesterol that's causing more inflammation? At the end of the day, I feel like we truly don't know that answer 100% yet, because different studies keep coming out on it, but.   Michelle (28:44) Right.   Bye.   Bye.   Samantha Briguglio (29:10) Overall, I would say my biggest thing and my biggest recommendations to treating cholesterol are actually by nourishing the liver and eating enough fiber. Obviously, if they have a really bad, high fatty diet with like really bad fats, like unsaturated fats, then that's an earth saturated fat. I'm like, wait a minute. What I said was wrong.   Michelle (29:19) Yeah.   Saturated fence, yeah. You know what it is? We talk too much about this all the time and it's just our brain's like, uh?   Samantha Briguglio (29:39) Yeah, I totally my brain was like, whoopsies, at least I caught it quickly. Whew. Um, you know, basically we do want to limit that limit that, right? But like eliminating the good fats, like avocado and eggs and stuff. Like that's, that's not what we want to do. That was a big rant, but there we go.   Michelle (29:43) You did.   Yeah.   No, I mean, I will say like, you know, when people say I can't have eggs, I can't have the yellow of eggs. I'm such a great food. But then of course, I'm always afraid to say, don't do what your doctor said. Like I will never say that. It's just, you know, so I wanted to get your opinion on it because you hear just so many different opinions on everything that it gets very confusing. And then sometimes the mainstream opinion isn't updated.   Samantha Briguglio (30:09) Right.   Right. No, they say it takes 10 years in medicine from an article coming out to making actual changes. And then by the time that happens, there's a new article that comes out.   Michelle (30:24) I'm finding that like, yeah.   Yes. then of course, you don't want to, again, step on other people's toes and you're like, well, I kind of remember hearing a study that says the opposite of this, you know, and I'm not talking about this specifically, I'm just saying in general. So sometimes, you just get so many different perspectives. But then of course, as a practitioner, you have to be very careful as to what you're   Samantha Briguglio (30:45) Yeah.   Michelle (30:54) suggesting and you don't want to go cross basically somebody's other treatment plan with their practitioner, that kind of thing. So I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about.   Samantha Briguglio (31:06) Totally. Yeah. And you know, I also just give patients options. I'm like, we can try this and let's monitor. Let's like do this way for a couple of months and then get your labs drawn and then do this way for a couple of months and get your labs. Like we can, you know, if their cholesterol isn't like in scary high levels, then I'm like, it's like we have room here. There's room. I'm like, how long do you think your cholesterol has been like this? Like we don't have to like change things tomorrow. Like we can just start slowly working on it. Like I said, if it's not in a dangerous place, but   Michelle (31:12) Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (31:35) Usually it's not. And so I think the fiber thing is honestly the most underrated thing there is. And then, yeah, and then eliminating the bad fats versus and keeping the good fats. Because the good fats are what keep your HDL high and they're helpful for that really good ratio. So we don't wanna eliminate the good stuff, we wanna eliminate the bad stuff.   Michelle (31:37) Yeah.   That's a good point, yeah.   Right. So the good stuff meaning avocados, salmon, you know, like good. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (32:06) eggs, nuts, you know. Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly.   Michelle (32:12) very important information. So, foods, I think that that's a huge thing because a lot of, we just don't, we're not conditioned to eat healthy. I just feel like there's a, you know, this quick fix and a lot of processed foods and people don't have the time or the energy to cook.   But that's one thing that I've at least seen that has been a little bit more difficult is really implementing a new way of living because it's so intricately connected to our behavior and it impacts inflammation, it impacts fertility like in so many ways. And then also like certain food additives that can impact gut microbiome, like thickeners,   Samantha Briguglio (32:48) Yeah.   I know and now there's like this thing that where it's like natural and holistic medicine is like kind of trending Like let's just like call it what it is, right? Which is cool because when I first started I would tell people what I do and they have no idea Like no one knew what I was gonna do Yes, it's more mainstream, which is awesome   Michelle (33:02) Mm-hmm.   Yes, we're becoming mainstream.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (33:16) But now it's like also been taken to the extreme. So I'm like, oh goodness, now we're like flying on this other side where it's like, oh God, like everyone's eliminating everything and like, it's just been crazy. And so now people come to me and they think I'm like chill. They're like, that's it? I'm like, yeah. And I'm gonna.   Michelle (33:33) Wait, so tell me, tell me, what do you say typically? What are your big things that people should pay attention to and what kind of things should they be a little more lax on?   Samantha Briguglio (33:44) Yeah, so like the thing I'm most strict about is sleep. I will always be like sleep over everything, sleep rules. Sleep is like, you will not, if you wake up early to sleep, your workout, your workout's not gonna be as effective than it would have been if you just like slept a little bit longer and then maybe try to get like a shorter workout in, right? Like it's, things like that, I will always stand by sleep first, always, always. Second, honestly, diet and movement.   Michelle (33:50) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (34:15) They're kind of linked for me now. It always used to be diet first, then movement, but now there's just so many, like there's so many people going through a lot of like stress and like mental health struggles that, yes, I can help with, but I feel like movement just helps set the tone for so many people's day where it like allows them, they move, it like allows them to like follow up with more healthy habits. So it's like this weird, you know what I'm saying?   Michelle (34:39) Oh, yeah, it's somatic. I mean, yes, because we were talking about how your emotions are very much tied to your body. That's why somatic therapy is so powerful. Probably another step over talk therapy, which is why things like yoga really impact the mind because when you're moving, you're sort of processing emotions and emotional states.   Samantha Briguglio (34:50) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (35:07) in a different way. And it also helps you cognitively. I mean, there's just, so movements like very underrated.   Samantha Briguglio (35:13) Yeah, well, and they, cause they only, people, I feel like we're only looking at it from like a, what does movement do to your body versus what diet does do to your body, right? And, but we're forgetting like the, oh, if I move and I feel good and I'm happier throughout the day, I'm more likely to like pick the healthier choices and eat the healthier foods than, and get restful sleep and all these other things. So honestly, they're kind of tied for me. Sometimes movement ranges up. I don't know, you know.   Michelle (35:33) True.   Yeah. But I also say if you're getting good sleep, you're going to be less likely to grab that sugary snack. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (35:50) That's exactly so this is where it's kind of like all of it matters a lot, but that's why sleep is like number one for me um But sleep so like obviously the diet and the movement piece But when it comes to diet, I feel like a lot of people are really strict now There are so many bad foods. Yes, there are so many seed oils and all of that But I feel like now people are going on the other side of getting really stressed out about what they're eating how much they're eating   Michelle (35:56) Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (36:15) you know, making sure they're getting all their nutrients in. Now I'm like, oh God, we've like over-corrected for a lot of people now that are in this wellness space. I'm like, okay, we need to like chill out a little bit. Like not everyone needs to eliminate gluten and dairy. If it bothers you, eliminate it. If you have an issue with it, eliminate it. If you're allergic to it, eliminate it. But like, if you eat it and you feel fine, like let's just not cut out another food, right? You know.   Michelle (36:15) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (36:42) A lot of practitioners believe that like no one should eat that and dairy is super inflammatory. And I'm like, well, yeah, but like quality matters always. If you're getting a good organic dairy, that would be helpful for some people.   Michelle (36:49) It's true. Yeah. Same thing with organic weed because it's not sprayed with glyphosate. I think that that's a big thing too. I mean, I'll be honest, I mean, it's just the world we're living in right now. It's a little bit of an uphill battle, but I agree with you that it can almost manifest, and I've talked about this before, it can almost manifest very similar to an eating disorder.   Samantha Briguglio (37:02) Okay.   Yes.   Michelle (37:15) I mean, because people get so upset and it really impacts them how they're eating. So it's a fine line of having a balanced perspective on food.   Samantha Briguglio (37:27) Yeah, yeah, it's orthorexia that it's literally actually has a technical name now and that means you're so stressed about eating healthy You either like just won't eat at all Which is actually not good for women. They'll say like for men It's actually better to fast than eat the unhealthy thing But for a lot of women it's better to like actually eat the unhealthy thing than to fast for too long fasting still. Okay but that's sorry, that's a whole nother conversation, but um Yeah, so I go from the approach of 80-20 rule   Michelle (37:33) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Yes.   Samantha Briguglio (37:57) and making it sustainable. So I'll tell my patients like all the time, I'm like, you're not a perfect person. You can't be perfect all the time. And if you're gonna stress about being perfect all the time, that's a whole nother thing we have to deal with. So instead, let's give you freedom to live your life. I go out, I go out and eat french fries, like all the time, I love french fries. Like I guarantee those are not always fried in like olive oil or whatever. They're definitely fried in probably like a seed oil or canola, like I know that, but I love them.   Michelle (38:17) Me too. It's good. Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (38:26) But the rest of the time, you know, I get my movement in, I'm drinking tons of water, I'm sleeping like nightly, like I take care of my mental and emotional health, like I'm doing all these other things that, so when I eat the French fries, it's not that big of a deal. I'm like, yeah. And so that's where I want people to feel free now.   Michelle (38:37) Mm-hmm.   Right, I get, no, I get what you're saying.   Samantha Briguglio (38:50) They can be as careful as they want as long as it doesn't cause like chronic stress. Like if avoiding all of that stuff actually helps you and relieve stress, great. But for majority of people I've seen, it really causes a lot more stress. So I become very picky about a couple of things and then I kind of just say, I'll help you with the other stuff, right? Like eliminating sugar, that's a big one. That one to me is a bigger deal than like the dairy and the gluten, right? So for me, I'll be like, okay, let's eliminate   Michelle (39:12) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (39:19) Let's reduce sugar, but I'll give them ways to reduce it. How do we make our own healthy Reese's cup at home? That's not gonna be bad. You can have a couple Reese's cup, honestly a day if you're making them out of organic dark chocolate and organic peanut butter that has only, the only thing is in it is peanuts. I'm not always worried about that then. And they'll be like, oh, okay, I'll make those. I love to cook or I love to bake, great.   Michelle (39:27) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Briguglio (39:49) I'm like, awesome. So like, boom, like that's already helping their sugar habits, right? Talking about pairing foods, like instead of taking away, taking away, taking away, more like add in, right? Like if they really like their smoothie in the morning that has all this stuff in it, they say smoothie is not that great and it's not good on the stomach and all of these things. I know in Chinese medicine, it's actually probably not good at all because they say you wanna start with like warm, right? Like they're like, let's, we want.   Michelle (40:14) But you know, it's funny that you say that because I do tell people the 80-20 rule as well, but I do that with raw. So like if they love their smoothie, fine, but just make it like 20% and that's your 20%. You know, or if you're like, if you're having smoothies and then a ton of salads and then all this raw stuff, fine, then that starts to add up. But I say the same thing.   leave it out for a little bit so that it's not freezing like frozen. Just kind of like let's do this balanced.   Samantha Briguglio (40:44) Yeah, and sometimes I'll be like make it a little bit thicker. So like let's maybe add some oats or some chia seeds or some more veggies to it to add some fiber and then like maybe eat it with a spoon instead. So that's getting those like chewing mechanisms going. We're really just starting our digestive system a little bit more than just drinking something. But you can compromise. Yeah, you can compromise and just add things in. You don't have to like completely take away everything. And I think a lot of people.   Michelle (41:03) Right. That's a good point. You want those enzymes.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (41:13) or shocked by that, surprised by it, but they like also kind of love it because it's like, whoa, this is actually doable.   Michelle (41:19) It feels good. It feels safer, first of all. It doesn't feel as pressure filled. And it also is, like I know from a mindset, from a subconscious mind thing, because I studied hypnotherapy, I feel like behavior and like our, what is it that stops us from changing habits? You know, like we all have habits and we repeat,   Samantha Briguglio (41:23) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (41:44) And one of the biggest almost like laws is that you cannot create a vacuum. And that's why it never works to just stop anything. So you have to just substitute. So I love that you said that like intuitively you're almost like realizing that about the mind. If you're giving the mind a substitute or instead of this, then have that, but it's kind of similar and then it's much easier to start a new habit that way.   Samantha Briguglio (41:50) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   Yeah, and you just have to give people kind of a chance instead of saying like, do this, do that. You're just like, okay, let's add, or let's, yeah, like you said, substitute. So, very, I'm also very passionate about that, as you can see.   Michelle (42:22) Hmm. I love that.   Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, these things are important for people to Because once you have this information, you have a lot more empowerment. And I feel like people just don't have that information. everybody deserves to know that. I love this conversation. I mean, I can keep talking to you for hours, but obviously we have like a limit on time.   But I definitely love picking your brain on these things. And I think that you have a really nice balance on how you look at it. So for people who do want to work with you or like learn more about you, how can they find you?   Samantha Briguglio (42:52) Thanks.   Yeah, well, we kind of talked about Instagram earlier. That's a very easy way. Walk the natural path on Instagram. I do have a website. It's also walk the natural path. So anything with that, your odds are you're gonna find me somewhere. So you can reach out, yeah, in DMs. Sometimes I'm a little bit slower. So sometimes I recommend filling out like a new patient form or booking a consultation call with me so you can chat a little bit about like your case and then what I can do to help or if I feel like we're a good fit.   Michelle (43:16) I love it.   So you help people virtually too. I just want to mention that, not just locally. Awesome.   Samantha Briguglio (43:35) Yeah. Yep. Virtually too. Yes.   Michelle (43:40) Also, so what was the inspiration to walk the natural path? Because I see you actually walking many natural paths and hiking, and I think that's so cool because you do a lot of like nature walks.   Samantha Briguglio (43:52) Yes, oh my gosh, such a passion of mine. I honestly like I used to do like one a week for sure I need to get back to it. Since the wedding has been a little crazy. But walk the natural path actually came from the idea of creating an Instagram to help promote natural medicine before it kind of dove into this like mainstream thing, right? And   I don't know, the name just like came to me, which was actually pretty crazy because I feel like I'm not the most creative person. So for that to happen, I was like, oh, this is it. And then it just kind of took off. And then when I switched the Instagram over to my business, it just, I think it just stuck and it was close to my heart. And my name is Dr. Samantha Berguglia, which is very, very long. And I was like, a lot of people just go by like.   Like my bestie is like Dr. Sienna Miller. I'm like, that's so cute, that's short. And that's kind of like what her business is. And she has a different title now, but I just, I decided to go with it and it stuck. And like you said, it's part of who I am. I walked nature trails all the time.   Michelle (44:51) us.   Because I see you walking nature trails, which by the way, that's a whole other topic. But I think that doing that is also really good for our health.   Samantha Briguglio (45:05) Yeah, in our hearts and yes, but I guess really what it's about though is it's saying like I'm walking the natural path to like healing Like at the end of the day, it's like always walking This natural path and natural though can mean anything to anybody, right? So not to get on a whole nother convo, but just to wrap it up it can mean You know the like the actual natural medicine that everyone really thinks about but it's the natural path for you So that could also be like combining   Michelle (45:13) Yeah.   Yeah.   Samantha Briguglio (45:35) conventional IVF plus natural medicine. That can be your natural path. So it's what feels natural to you. It's kind of supposed to be interpreted, but yeah.   Michelle (45:47) I love it. Well, that's a great note to end with. And this is an awesome conversation. I'm so glad we finally met. I know we were like DMing each other back and forth on Instagram for a while and following each other. And then I was like, I got to get her on the podcast. I really like the stuff that she's putting out. So thank you so much for coming on here, Dr. B.   Samantha Briguglio (46:07) Aw, thanks for having me. This has been wonderful.  

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack is a certified Fertility Awareness Educator and Holistic Reproductive Health Practitioner who teaches women to chart their menstrual cycles for natural birth control, conception, and monitoring overall health. She is the author of three bestselling books The Fifth Vital Sign, the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Workbook, and her most recent book Real Food For Fertility, which she co-authored with Lily Nichols RDN. Lisa works tirelessly to debunk the myth that regular ovulation is only important when you want children by recognizing the menstrual cycle as a vital sign. Drawing heavily from the current scientific literature, Lisa presents an evidence-based approach to help women connect to their fifth vital sign by uncovering the connection between the menstrual cycle, fertility, and overall health. With well over 4 million downloads, her podcast, Fertility Friday, is the #1 source for information about fertility awareness and menstrual cycle health.   Fertility Friday: fertilityfriday.com Real Food For Fertility: realfoodforfertility.com The Fifth Vital Sign: thefifthvitalsignbook.com Instagram: @FertilityFriday Facebook: Facebook.com/FertilityFridays LinkedIn: Lisa Hendrickson-Jack     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) So welcome to the podcast, Lisa.   Lisa Jack (00:03) Thanks so much for having me back.   Michelle (00:05) Yes. So having you back again, we had a little mishap, issue with the recording for some reason, but we are on a new recording software. So hopefully this is going to be great and I'm excited to pick your brain again.   Lisa Jack (00:21) Well, I'm happy to be here. I mean we can never anticipate the tax nafus. It's part of online business, I suppose.   Michelle (00:28) Oh, totally. 100%. So we had so many good things too. That's what's really frustrating. We had such a great conversation about so many things. But for people who are first hearing about this, I know that a lot of people think that there's certain textbooks like menstrual cycles, or they have like sort of an idea in their mind of what a perfect menstrual cycle looks like. And since this is...   your absolute specialty and you understand it from like A to Z, can you describe what a healthy menstrual cycle should look like?   Lisa Jack (01:06) Yeah, I mean, that's a great place to start. And just to put it out there when I'm working with clients and practitioners, I always say there's no such thing as a perfect menstrual cycle because you're a human, not a robot. And so when we look at what a healthy menstrual cycle looks like, we should be looking at a range. And basically, what I can lay out is the different parameters that we're looking at. Often when I talk about the menstrual cycle, people's minds will go straight to the period.   Michelle (01:17) Right?   Lisa Jack (01:34) and they'll kind of think, okay, well, what is a healthy period? But then they don't necessarily think about all the other parameters. So when we're looking at what makes a healthy menstrual cycle, we can look at the overall cycle length, which ideally would be somewhere between about 24 and 35 days. We can look at the pre -ovulatory phase in particular. So we can look at the period. So the period is its own category. We want to have a menstrual period that overall is somewhere between three to seven days with an average of about five days.   And I always say the period should be like a sentence. It should have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then it should be over. So if it's like trailing on for days and days of bleeding, if you're getting bleeding throughout your whole cycle, as opposed to just when you have your period, these are things we should be looking at. And although it's really common to have several days of spotting before you start your actual bleed, it's not optimal. So it's helpful to understand that piece of it. And then in terms of pain,   Michelle (02:08) I love that, that's so good.   Lisa Jack (02:32) It's also extremely common for women to experience menstrual pain. And so there's always this question of like, is it normal or not? And there is debate. So there are definitely people who are more on the like, it's normal kind of, you know, because so many people have it. So it has to be normal. But, you know, outside of your period, pain is thought of as a problem. And so if you thought of any man in your life, anyone, your father, brother, cousin, whoever, friend, boyfriend, if he had pain in his period, in his penis for.   Michelle (03:01) in this period you imagine.   Lisa Jack (03:02) Right? But if he had pain in his penis for two to three days every month, such that he needed to take medication and possibly couldn't go to work if the medication didn't kick in, no one would think that that's okay. So that's also just a bit of an aside where when we look at what's happening during a menstrual bleed, it is a natural inflammatory process by which you shed that lining. And so in order for your uterus to shed that lining, there does have to be some inflammation. And we do have...   prostaglandins that we produce that help to induce those smooth muscle contractions to make this all happen. So what's interesting is that when we look at what the research says, women who have pain, they have a higher level of these prostaglandins. So they have a higher outside of normal inflammatory response. So at very least, pain with menstruation that's moderate to severe is a sign of increased inflammation, something we should be aware of. And at worst, it could be a sign of a more serious condition like endometriosis.   So as an aside, although common, we want to consider moderate to severe pain to be not optimal. And we want to be looking a little bit deeper into that. And for many women, they often need that nudge to do so, especially if they've had pain very consistently from their first period, for example. So outside of the period then, when we move into the actual, like the rest of the pre -ovulatory phase, we want to look at when ovulation is happening.   So in order to have a cycle that falls within that 24 to 35 day range, we do need ovulation to happen typically somewhere between days 10 and days 22 or days 23. So approximately. So we want to be looking at when ovulation is taking place. And as you approach ovulation, you're supposed to be making some healthy cervical fluid. And typically we would expect to see that for about two to seven days leading up to ovulation. So we want to look at the quality of that, how many days you're seeing. Like if you're not seeing any at all, that can be a sign of.   low hormones or an issue with your cervix. If you see it all the time, that can be a sign of something as simple as a yeast infection or something more serious potentially. So it's helpful to even know that that's a thing. And then after ovulation, that period of time, the post -ovulatory phase or luteal phase, as we call it, should be about 12 to 14 days. And so if it's, you know, seven days, that's a problem that could impede your chances of conception. It's a sign of extremely low progesterone. If you have...   moderate to severe PMS symptoms, if you have spotting, as I had mentioned previously before your period. So like interesting, right? Because you asked a pretty simple question, what does a healthy cycle look like? So I think what's good about this, just to kind of pull it back then, is that we're not looking for any one factor to be perfect. Within each of those factors I listed, there's a bit of a range. And so you could potentially have one of those aspects that's a little bit off, but overall, the rest of it is pretty strong.   And so that can help you to understand that you don't need to have a perfect cycle for it to be healthy. We just need to have it for the most part fall into those parameters.   Michelle (05:58) For sure. And I also look at like, you know, as a practitioner, I look at like what's normal for you, because some people have always had a short cycle, but they're normal. Or, you know, it's usually when things become out of whack for you, or it's kind of like not like you're, they almost have like personalities, menstrual cycles, right?   Lisa Jack (06:17) Yes. Well, and I agree with you to a point because I used to be one of those people that was like, my cycles are long and that's normal because my cycles are always long. Right. So when I first started training, so I think there's a balance between understanding what the normal parameters are to make sure you're within them and then understanding what your normal is. And absolutely, when you're used to experiencing ovulation, you know, in a certain range and all of a sudden it's like 20 days later, yes, we need to be looking at that. But.   Michelle (06:27) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Lisa Jack (06:46) because of my own experience and what I've seen with many clients, there's a lot of things that we can experience a lot, like period pain is a good example, or even that pre -evaluatory spotting where we can just tell ourselves, well, I always experience that, that's totally normal, but it might not be. Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (06:58) I'm not talking about abnormal though. I'm talking about within like 26, like say you have a 26 day cycle and that just tends to be your thing. As long as it's not abnormal or within like sort of a more like red alarm position.   Lisa Jack (07:11) Yes. Yes. No, I tend to be I tend to be like, because I because this is what I do, right? Like I'm like lazery. So I'm like, well, the 20 days, 26 day cycle is within the normal range. But you could have a 29 day cycle or a 28 day cycle. That is actually problematic. Like you could let me give you an example. You could have a 28 day cycle where you're ovulating on day 20 with an eight day luteal. Right. So so this is why it's helpful to look at the whole picture.   Michelle (07:29) Right.   Bye.   100%. I think that what you do is very important. And, you know, looking at like the temperature, looking at the cervical mucus, looking at, well, possibly position, but like really understanding it in a way that has a different lens. Because for me, at least, I know that I really appreciate when patients come in and they do their BBT charting. Why? Because I look at the yin and the yang. And if it's too low, that tells me a lot. Usually when,   Lisa Jack (07:55) Yeah.   Michelle (08:09) The luteal phase, which is more of the yang part of the cycle, yang mean more heating. Yin is more cooling and moist. So that's kind of like more of the estrogen aspect of it. And it's pretty wild when you can actually see that. What we learned in textbooks actually being reflected in the menstrual cycle. But when we see that as practitioners and we can really look at it, I really appreciate being able to see that chart because it helps us.   see much more and a lot of other practitioners in the same boat, like they see what I'm talking about. It just helps you to understand it at a different And unfortunately, some people are very resistant to doing it because they say when I do my BBT, and I want to actually address it because I want to see what your thoughts on this. Sometimes people say that if they start to look and like kind of chart their cycle,   that it throws their cycle off and that they get really stressed out. Yeah. So then I'm like, okay, well, you know, what's the balance, you know, of trying it? And I say, just try it out. It's not forever. Like just see what it shows you. And then maybe it'll regulate as you're doing it. And I think that there's this resistance to it. Like they're almost overly focused on it and it stresses them out.   Lisa Jack (09:10) Interesting.   Mm -hmm.   Michelle (09:32) So I wanted to get your thoughts on that.   Lisa Jack (09:35) Yeah, well, I think the couple of things came to mind. So the first thing that came to mind when you said that, like, when I do it, it throws my cycle off. I think that that was interesting. That's interesting because that could be something a bit different. That could be that you thought your cycles were so, you know, perfect. And because people do like people think like my cycles are totally regular. Right. When you're not charting, you're like, yeah, it's always like 20 days. Like, yeah, because this is like how we think. But then as soon as you look at it, it's not it's not no one cycle is 20 days for a year.   I will put money on that. It's just not, if you're actually tracking.   Michelle (10:06) No, no, they still used like an app to track the numbers. So they knew what their numbers were, but they didn't do like the BBT and like a little bit more in depth.   Lisa Jack (10:15) Yep. Well, I guess what I'm, so I guess the thought that I had around that was that when you actually start to look, you see not necessarily that things are wrong, but you just see more of the nuance that you weren't looking for before. And so you may not have been aware of certain nuances that were happening because if you're not tracking it, you wouldn't be aware of those nuances. That was the first thing that came to mind. The second question I think is interesting.   For a couple of reasons. So now that I work with practitioners when you have your own modality as a practitioner, you know Then the people that are coming to you are coming to you for that particular modality and This whole charting thing is very niche. It's very specialized and not everybody wants to do it and that's totally okay I think that that's something that's important to remember So when you're as a practitioner seeing the value of charting and if there's a lot of value there   And it's really helpful. I mean, for me, that's all I do. So it's hard for me to imagine how I would support someone without seeing it, because it really is an integral part of everything that I do. But when you get all jazzed about something, it doesn't mean that everyone else is jazzed about it too. So when it comes to then encouraging your clients to chart, coming from all different walks of life and varying levels of interest in this topic, I think that it's important to kind of put that all into perspective. So.   Michelle (11:25) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (11:40) You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I think you can think about your messaging. One of the things that I learned, just because I've been in the field so long, I went through my initial, everybody needs to do this face, you know, 20 years ago, and, you know, trying to ram it down. And I'm not saying that's what anyone's doing. I'm just saying, like, when you first learn about this stuff, it's like you want to, like, literally, like, all your girlfriends, you have to, right? Like, you get into this energy, and some of your girlfriends are like, you need to leave me alone.   Michelle (12:03) Hahaha.   Lisa Jack (12:06) right? Because like, I've got this, like, I'm good with the birth control pill, and you need to stop. And that's okay. So the way that I have approached that in my life is that, I mean, now I have my own podcast, right? Like, I talk to people who want to hear about it. And in my personal life, I don't necessarily talk about it. And I have not, I typically don't have the experience where a person is not necessarily at all coming to me for charting, because usually people are coming to me for charting.   Michelle (12:21) Yeah.   Lisa Jack (12:34) but I have had varying levels of interest within that. So I've had a lot of clients who are coming to me for conception and they really do want to know what's going on in their cycle. But sometimes the charting does cause a lot of stress, especially depending on what a person is going through. So I've had clients who are super motivated, like dotting all the, you know, eyes, crossing all the T's, writing every little notation and notes and like really, really detailed. And I've also had clients who resist that a bit and they...   They don't necessarily get into the notations a whole lot. And so a lot of what I do in those situations is we have a conversation and talk through it. It's the same stuff. They're just not writing it down. And I try to help them achieve their goals, meeting them where they're at. Like I can think of several clients who weren't necessarily super into those notations, but through our conversations, like they were still checking. They were still observing their cervical fluid. They were still able to time sex accordingly.   And they got a lot out of it. And I really tailored what I was presenting to them to what they needed. And I was always having those check -in conversations. And this is something I talk about with my practitioners, like the whole coaching aspect of it, where you can have your goals. You want to have this person chart, but they can have their own goals. And so sometimes it's like, well, what would success look like for you? You know, I see that you're not really that into the charting or I see that the charting is causing a lot of stress. We don't want more stress. We definitely don't want that. What would make you happy?   Like what would success look like after, you know, our several weeks of working together? And maybe she says, I just wanted to understand how to pick up when like which days I'm fertile. Like I don't want to like write it all down or anything. I just want to be more confident in identifying that. And so, you know, my comment on that is there are lots of ways that we can improve our clients' education and confidence without necessarily going all the way down the charting rabbit hole. So we have to be flexible as practitioners with where our clients are at with these things.   Michelle (14:30) No, I'm with you and I actually tell them There's a lot of other ways to figure out if you're ovulating. However, I always really enjoy being able to look at the charts because it on a different level.   Lisa Jack (14:44) as a practitioner, when you have that knowledge, you can still, like it still comes through and they're still getting so much from you.   And I think sometimes it's interesting hearing the charting instructor saying, you know what, if this is stressing you out, then just stop. I've had that conversation with a number of clients over the years where it's like, if this is too much for you, then just stop. Just stop charting for a month or two and see how you feel. And the interesting thing is you stop writing it down. But after you've learned all the stuff about how to identify the fertile, it's not like you're going to stop going pee. So you're going to see your mucus.   and you're still going to have that knowledge and information. You're just finding a way to dance with that information that does not cause more stress.   Michelle (15:28) Absolutely. So as far as birth control pills,   I know this is another topic you talk about a lot and also just like how that impacts the body. So I'd love for you to talk about like how it impacts the body. And then if somebody's been taking it for a really long and wants to get pregnant after stopping, what are some of the things they should be thinking about?   Lisa Jack (15:52) Mm -hmm. Love that question because not a lot of We're just not told how the birth control pill works. I was actually listening to someone Kind of a prominent person talk about the birth control pill Yesterday and it was really great because a lot of what she said was on point but she did say, you know, well, you know the pill tricks your body into thinking that you're pregnant and and so these are some of the myths that we still have Today about how the birth control pill works in the body. I   So it's interesting because if we were to compare the state of a woman on birth control, so the state of her natural hormones, the most compatible or comparable state would actually be to a woman in menopause. That makes terrible PR and marketing, so they're not gonna tell you that. And so essentially, the pill, the main mode of action for the most common pill, which is the combined oral contraceptives, so it has a combination of synthetic progestin and synthetic estrogens,   is to suppress ovulation. So that's the main mode of action. And that's really helpful when you're trying to avoid pregnancy, because if you're not ovulating, you can't get pregnant. So in order for it to suppress ovulation, then, it interferes with the conversation that is typically happening between your hypothalamus, pituitary gland, and ovaries. And as a result, the ovaries then become kind of dormant. And so that's why we can think of the menopause as a similar comparison, not pregnancy. Because in pregnancy, we're actually making ridiculous amounts of   progesterone. So compared to the progesterone you make in your menstrual cycle, by the time you're 40 weeks pregnant, you're making 11 times the amount of progesterone. So it's not the same when you're on the pill. It's not a comparable state. And so when women are on the pill, if we were to measure their natural estrogen and progesterone, they would be very low and flat, very consistent. So the first main mode of action is to suppress ovulation.   And then there are other modes of action that work in conjunction. One is to maintain a very thin, flat endometrial lining. And so they measure it with ultrasound and, you in my books, I kind of share some of those numbers because it's quite, quite thin. So even if something were to happen, then there's less of a chance of conception because the endometrium is so thin. And then it also prevents the production of fertile quality cervical fluid. So the sperm then theoretically, like they can't go anywhere because the, the cervix is blocked with this mucus plug all the time.   And those are the modes of action that work together. So when a woman is then on contraceptives for a long time, and, excuse me, interestingly in the research, they define long -term as two years or more. And when you think about most of the women in your life or yourself, many women have used birth control for two years, five years, eight years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. So this whole concept of long -term is pretty.   mainstream if they're defining it as two years. So there's a couple different ways that the pill affects the body then. One is that it does have an effect on the menstrual cycle. So when women are coming off the pill, research has shown that it takes anywhere from nine to 12 cycles for all cycles, not months, for all of those menstrual cycle parameters to normalize post -pill. So that includes everything we just talked about, like the overall cycle length, the cervical mucous production,   you know, the luteal phase length. And so it's really common to come off the pill and to have a short luteal phase for it to take several months before the cycle either returns or normalizes. So some women do get their, they start ovulating and having their periods pretty, pretty quick. Others might take a couple of months and then on the, you know, a smaller percentage might take quite a while, but generally speaking, a lot of women get their cycles back within the first few months. But then those first few cycles, often ovulation is delayed. And so some of those cycles,   are quite a bit longer. And then it's also quite common to have a short luteal phase for those first few cycles and to have abnormal cervical amicus patterns. So that's one way that the pill affects the body. Another thing to be aware of is it's well known that when women are on contraceptives, so if you were currently on contraceptives and you did an ovarian reserve test, for example, it suppresses ovarian function. I just said it makes the ovaries dormant. So then it's logical that those...   ovarian reserve parameters are going to be suppressed. And that's what we find in the research. So I think one of the scary stats when women engage with my books is that stat on how when women are on the pill, ovarian volume shrinks by 50%. So it's saying that the pill shrinks your ovaries while you're on them. That sounds awful, right? And then the AMH is low and antral follicle count is low. And what the research tells us...   is that when a woman comes off the pill, it takes about a minimum of six to seven months before those parameters start to normalize again. And interestingly then, why are we not told to come off the pill? Six to a minimum of six months or so before we start trying, we're not, but that's something important to know as well. So I don't see these things to scare you because obviously some women do come off the pill and get pregnant right off the bat. So it's not even to say that you can't.   Michelle (20:46) Right.   Lisa Jack (21:01) but we want to acknowledge that there's a temporary period of subfertility post -pill. And so the other way, so I talked about kind of these three ways that the pill affects the body. So I mentioned the menstrual cycle effects on the menstrual cycle. I mentioned the effects on the ovaries and then there's the effect on fertility itself. And so those are the time to pregnancy studies where they look at how long it takes a person to conceive.   And so there was this interesting study that compared women who were using condoms, so non -hormonal methods, to a variety of hormonal methods, including the birth control pill, the shot, the hormonal IUD, and a few others. And in that study, the women who came off the pill, it took them an average of eight months to conceive. The ones who were using the pill, quote, long term, so two years or more, compared to the women who were using condoms, who took an average of four months to conceive. And the shot...   users were the worst offenders and they took an average of about 18 months to conceive after coming off of the shot. And the IUD was about eight months as well, eight to 10 months. So that is interesting information because we're not told that. So it doesn't mean that we need to be afraid that the pill is going to impair our fertility forever, but it does mean that we need to be aware that there's a temporary period of subfertility. So then the recommendation out of that,   Michelle (21:52) Mm -hmm. Wow.   Right.   Lisa Jack (22:19) that Lily and I make in real food for fertility is that you should consider coming off of birth control a minimum, I would say a minimum of six to 12 months before you start trying to conceive. And I would add in a caveat that if you did go on the pill because you had menstrual cycle problems, like because you actually knew that there was something wrong, you had long irregular cycles, you never knew when your next period was coming, you had extreme pain with menstruation.   you had extreme mood swings or like, right, like there was some sort of kind of medical reason why you were put on birth control, then you'd want to extend that period. And I would go as far to say 18 months to two years because not because we think you won't be able to get pregnant, but because if there's an underlying issue, the pill doesn't solve it. It masks it. So when you come off of it, you still have to figure out what's going on there if you wanted to conceive naturally. So if you come off well before you're ready, so you're still.   Michelle (23:06) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (23:16) Actively avoiding like you have to figure out your birth control and I would recommend a non hormonal birth control option So you still have to be on top of your birth control game? But during that time if your cycle is kind of wonky if things are going awry You actually have time to fix it. You have time to make your appointments You have time to normalize your hormones without the added pressure of also trying to conceive at the exact same time   Michelle (23:40) Yeah. I mean, it's crazy to me because I have, I can't tell you how many people I've had come in and say, oh, my doctor said the second you get off your birth control pill, even if they've been on it for like 15 to sometimes 20 years, the second you get off, you can get pregnant. You don't have to do anything. And you're telling me the science, you know, it's crazy because they say that they're very based in science and the evidence, but.   Nobody seems to be looking at that   Lisa Jack (24:09) Well, and there's a couple things I can mention about the science that I think are really interesting. So, I mean, one of the ways, one of the reasons that I am digging into the weeds about this is because often when I'm working with women in real time, I'm seeing this stuff. I'm seeing the menstrual cycle regularities and it's consistent. I've worked with hundreds of women at this point who've come off of birth control in my various programs and you see it. You see these abnormal mucous patterns. You see that it takes time for the cycle to normalize.   Michelle (24:26) Yeah.   Lisa Jack (24:38) And so then when you see that stuff, you want to know why. And so that's part of my motivation to look at the research to kind of get that explanation. Because sometimes you see things in clinical practice before you understand why you're seeing them. And then when you actually dig into the research, you're like, OK, this is why. Because the pills, you know, suppressing ovarian function and it takes seven months minimum for that ovarian function to normalize. You know, I had this woman reach out to me. She's like a listener of the podcast.   Michelle (24:49) Right.   Lisa Jack (25:06) And she kind of independently had this experience. She came off the pill, she was in her late thirties, and then she got her AMH and her ovarian reserve parameters tested right off the bat because her and her husband wanted to conceive. And they came back so low that they told her, and this is a whole other topic if you want to go into it, because we can, but they told her, okay, your AMH is so low, you won't be able to conceive and all that kind of stuff. And so then she was devastated. It was like a whole thing. She was like, what's going on? And she was trying to do her research. And again, she was listening to the podcast.   And then she ended up independently requesting her ovarian reserve parameters tested several times during the first year after the pill. So I don't have the data in front of me because she actually sent it to me and I invited her on the podcast and we talked about it was a really interesting episode. But so she tested it independently, like whatever it was, four months, six months, like in 12 months, whatever, right? So you get my point. And interestingly, by the 12 month mark, you know, the AMH was...   like rebounded quite well to the doctor's astoundment, if that's a word. And I, it aligns with the research study that I cited in that book. Now in that study, they only went to the six to seven month mark. You know, in her case, she just independently chose to demand these tests and saw the results for herself. And so again, this is, it's really interesting information. So what I wanted to say about the research and what's interesting about it is that,   It's harder to find studies that actually break down the data like month to month, or even just not just at the year mark. Most of the studies, if you look, because I did, and a lot of the newer studies that are coming out, they just tell you at the year mark. And so when you have a study that's saying X percentage of women conceived at the year mark, the pill is a reversible contraceptive method, it's all good. Goodbye, get out of my office. Then that's...   If that's all you're looking at, you're not asking these questions, but it's when you look at the studies that actually break this stuff down, like how things are at the beginning, after two months, three months, five months, six months, eight months, 12 months, that you actually see that, yeah, sure, if we just skip to 12 months, it looks great and it sounds great in a study, it's very succinct. But the emotional damage, my kids always, they have all their slang, emotional damage. So if anyone has like 10 year olds, they're gonna be laughing with me. And everyone who doesn't is like, what is she talking about?   But like the emotional issues that like the very real challenges for a woman in her, you know, let's say late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s, whatever, who has been avoiding pregnancy like the plague her whole life, who's told that she can get pregnant on every day of her cycle, terrified all the time is so scared to come off the pill that she probably delayed it as long as humanly possible because she thought she was going to get pregnant immediately. The amount of stress it causes her.   two months later to still not be pregnant, three months later to still not be pregnant. That is the reason that I look at this research and talk about it in this way. And that is one of the reasons why maybe the medical professionals are not talking about it this way because most of the research just looks at the year mark and says X percent of women conceived, end of story, you're good to go, come off the pill, you'll get pregnant, it's fine.   Michelle (28:19) really is crazy if you think about it. And because people are really not getting the full picture and they're not getting enough information to really go on. And another thing is also just the nutrient deficiencies, which I know that you guys address in the book. So I want to talk about that as well and why that's so important. What are some of the things that you guys see and like how to address it?   Lisa Jack (28:43) Mm -hmm. I mean, I think that's such a good question as well because I had thought of it when you were talking before You know just come off the pill and you'll get pregnant, right? That's what your practitioner says and Interestingly, I mean, yes, the goal is to get pregnant but like for me I have three children by this point So it's not just to get pregnant because you could get pregnant and miscarry you can get pregnant have an awful pregnancy It could be a very difficult time where you're feeling really ill and sick and therefore you you're not even able to eat the best   Michelle (29:02) Right.   Lisa Jack (29:11) You know, have these plans to eat all this good food during pregnancy. And then for many of us, including myself, I had a lot of nausea. I didn't have a lot of vomiting, but I had a lot of nausea in the like, especially my last pregnancy in the first several months. And so you don't always have the opportunity to eat all the good food you were planning to eat. So when it comes to what the goals are, I would say on my client's behalf that, yes, the goal is to conceive, but it is to have a healthy child. It is to be a healthy parent.   It is hard to parent even if you are nourished. If you are, like most women, deficient in iron going into pregnancy, studies show as few as 20 % of women go into pregnancy with sufficient iron stores. I mean, it's even harder to parent when you're nutrient deficient at the end of this process and you're low in iron and every other nutrient known to human beings and your thyroid is acting up and whatever. So...   I would go further and say, okay, it's not just about getting pregnant. It's about having a healthy child. And if we have the opportunity to optimize, it's not just going to help the child, it's going to help us as well. So some of the nutrients that are depleted by hormonal contraceptives, it's like the exact ones we need to make healthy babies. It depletes our B vitamins, particularly folate, and B12, and B6 is particularly bad.   It depletes our coenzyme Q10, which anybody who's in the fertility space knows is essential for optimal egg and sperm quality and overall health. And it does this by disrupting nutrient metabolism. When I was talking about the B6 depletion in the fifth vital sign, I gave the analogy of like a hole in a bucket. Because in order to get enough B6, for example,   to offset the deficiency, it's like you had to take 38 times the recommended RDA, right? So it's showing you that it's changing the way you're metabolizing these nutrients. So just by coming off of it, your body would then start metabolizing those things normally. And so maybe like the hole stops, like you stop up the hole in the bucket, but you would still want a period of time of focused nutrition so that you can actually build back.   up those stores and there's other nutrients including zinc and magnesium, selenium, phosphorus, it increases your requirements for vitamin A and vitamin C. Like it's interesting and this is well known and you know even I had an interesting pharmacist on my podcast years ago and like pharmacists are super interesting because like they study all the drug interactions and I mean he wrote a whole book on how   you know, the pill depletes all these nutrients and he's kind of arguing like, why aren't we telling them to take a vitamin or something like we know that this is happening and the vitamin doesn't make everything better either. It just like puts a little like it's like damage control until we get off of it. So so then the recommendation out of that is not only do we want to take the time.   Michelle (32:02) Right. Yeah.   Right.   Lisa Jack (32:17) for our menstrual cycles to normalize, right? And our ovaries to just get, and again, it's not to say that you can't get pregnant. Like if your body is ready, then plenty of women come off the pill and get pregnant, but we're saying, let's take it a step further and optimize this. So during that, let's say minimum period of six to 12 months, we are also encouraging you to really focus on incorporating the foods that contain those nutrients that are depleted on the pill, the same ones we need to optimize our chances of conception so that when we're ready to conceive, ideally,   Our bodies are ready, ideally we're able to conceive quicker, more easily, and our pregnancies, the pregnancy outcome, the health of our babies and our own health is better. I mean, why not?   Michelle (33:00) Totally. And then also the gut health, like the gut microbiome gets impacted, which can impact also how we're absorbing those it's important to also get that back so that you're able to like reabsorb nutrients.   Lisa Jack (33:16) Yeah, I mean, I think that it's just, this is the information that we need. It's a piece of it. And it's crazy to think that it's just not a standard practice. So I've spoken to so many women who they had it in their mind, you know, I've been on the pill for 10 years and my husband and I are planning to start trying to conceive in the fall, you know? And so she calls her doctor, makes her appointment, takes a shower, gets in her car, drives across town.   to ask this doctor if she should come off the pill, you know, even a few months before. And the doctor says, no, you're good. But I always say like your intuition got you to like get out of bed, like do all this stuff. Like something's up. Listen to it. You know what I mean? It's just we just live in an upside down, ridiculous place where, you know, after we hear this stuff, it feels like common sense. But before, you know, you're questioning yourself. And that's how the medical system is. It's very paternalistic. Not to like.   Michelle (33:56) Yeah, yep, totally.   Lisa Jack (34:13) totally rag on it. But we can't always depend on these so -called professionals for all of these answers because at the end of the day, doctors are busy and they don't necessarily have time to read all of this research. So they don't know everything.   Michelle (34:27) 100%. I think that that is the key phrase is nobody knows everything. That's why you need a team. And it's important to ask a lot of people. And also you are part of that team. Your own internal intelligence is a thing. Yes. And you got to listen to your gut. Like your intuition is a real thing. So, um,   Lisa Jack (34:39) You're the head of the team.   Michelle (34:48) And I think there have been studies on that too. So yeah, people have like intuitive intuition and they can feel their body from within because if you think about survival, you even look at animals, they'll know what to eat. They just are guided by what is good for their body. That is a real instinct that we have and I think very, very important that you touched upon that. as one of the questions,   Lisa Jack (34:51) Hahaha!   Michelle (35:16) about or is it true that we are born with all the eggs we'll ever have?   Lisa Jack (35:21) Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's so interesting because we live in just such an interesting time. So there are these like talks about stem cell research and, you know, people are starting to say like, it's a myth and all this kind of stuff. But when we're looking at natural conception, like birds and the bee stuff, we are for all intents and purposes born with all the eggs that we'll ever have. So it's really interesting numbers. When we're in utero, you know, we have several million eggs in there.   And by the time we're born, we have an estimated number of 500 ,000 to a million eggs, which is wild if you think about it. And to go a step further too, so I mentioned like my, I have three children and so I have a, my youngest is 19 months old as we're recording this and it's a she. So I had a girl after 10 years of being a boy mom, which is fun. But fun fact, you know, when I was pregnant with her, you know, she then had all her eggs in there.   And so theoretically, I was carrying the egg that could turn into a grandchild in the future. So all that fun information, fun facts. And so as we then go through the process of aging, as we go through our reproductive years, and we then at the time of menopause, when we have our last period, they say we have about 1 ,000 eggs left.   So from that perspective then, we can't really control the natural kind of, because there is this natural over time, they call it follicular atresia. They say we ovulate, the research says if you're ovulating normally throughout your reproductive life, you're going to release anywhere from 400 to 500 eggs. So assuming you're not on the pill for 20 years, you're not necessarily releasing all those eggs. During ovulation, that's how much you're releasing, which is interesting.   But it's not to say that you have a million eggs and then you're releasing one at a time. And so it's like going down like that. What happens is every time you go through a menstrual cycle, you have a cohort of follicles that develop and they prepare for ovulation. And then one is chosen to ovulate, but the majority of them, they just, you know, again, they call it follicular atresia. Like the majority of them just kind of like go away.   And interestingly, the question comes like, well, if I'm on the pill and I'm not ovulating, does that mean that I get all these extra eggs? And it's like, have you ever known anyone who was on the pill for 20 years to then go through menopause at 70? No, you haven't. That's not a thing. So even though you're not ovulating, cycle to cycle in the same way, that process of follicular atresia is still taking place. So I think that what's scary about that is that we have this finite number and there's an end date.   Michelle (37:52) laughs   Lisa Jack (38:10) Whereas men don't have a firm end date. They do go through aging. So their sperm quality changes over time. Like, listen, they make no mistake. But they still continue to produce sperm all their lives. Whereas we have this end date. So then when we're looking at supporting egg quality, when we're looking at optimizing our chances of fertility, then what we're looking at is to support egg quality. You know, we're looking to understand the different ways that we can test for   are over in reserve and understand those interactions, but we really want to focus on that quality. Because even though there's this cool research that talks about the stem cells, and I don't know if your listeners have heard this, maybe you've heard it, Michelle, but it's like people are talking about this now, like, oh, it's a myth. But that all requires artificial reproductive technology. Like there's no scenario where whatever they're talking about happens naturally. So if we're looking at natural conception, then that's really where our focus has to be, which is on supporting egg.   quality and one fun fact I want to share about egg quality that I think is kind of mind -blowing. Okay, so Michelle, do you remember high school, you know, high, junior high or high school bio class like biology class where they used to tell us about the cells or whatever and like in my textbook they would have a picture of the cell and it had all the like organelles and stuff and there would be like a couple like maybe one or two mitochondria in the picture, right?   Michelle (39:34) Yes.   Lisa Jack (39:35) So how many, I don't know if we've had this conversation specifically, so how many mitochondria do you think are in an egg cell?   Michelle (39:43) I know there are hundreds of thousands.   Lisa Jack (39:45) Yeah, so when I asked this question to someone who's not heard this before, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, right? Because in the picture, yeah. Yeah. So you were in the know. But like, when you think about it, so the range of mitochondria in your average cell could be from like a few, a handful to a few hundred, like liver cells, heart cells have a few thousand mitochondria, which is even mind blowing in and of itself. Because like in the picture, in the textbook, there was like one.   Michelle (39:49) I heard it on your podcast years ago. Yeah.   I know. It's like one lonely mitochondria just floating in the cytoplasm.   Lisa Jack (40:13) Right? There was not a thousand. You're just like, how does what do you mean there's a thousand? What does the cell look like? Exactly. But in the human egg cell. So the human egg cell is the largest cell of all the cells in the body. It is a cell that is visible to the naked eye. It is the size of a period in a piece on a piece of paper. So you can actually see it with the naked eye. And there are anywhere from 100 ,000 to 600 ,000 mitochondria in one egg cell.   Oh my gosh. And mitochondria are what determine there are energy producers. And then if you think about it logically, it's like, well, yeah, we're building a whole human. So yes, that makes sense. Right. But until you break it down, you don't think about it. So then how do we support egg quality? Well, we do everything we can to support our mitochondrial health. So to really support those mitochondrial cells, we also do what we can do to reduce what they term.   Michelle (40:43) Yup.   Right?   Lisa Jack (41:07) oxidative stress, which is damaged to oxygen. So I was thinking the example of like, if you peel a banana and it turns brown, but if you dip the banana in, you know, lemon juice or vitamin C water, then it doesn't turn brown. So it's that those two things are play a big role in supporting mitochondrial and overall egg quality.   Michelle (41:28) Yes, yeah, 100%. I also talk about plugging the energy leaks in your life because man, even emotions can drain your energy. So they're just like everything, all the aspects, all the things. And I want to talk really quickly because I know we're kind of running out of time about sperm health because we had a really good conversation on the recording that didn't work out. And I want to talk about that, about the parameters of sperm health today.   what they used to be and how they've changed and what we're seeing just overall, like now versus before.   Lisa Jack (42:02) Yeah, I mean, I always get excited to talk about all of these topics, really, like the egg quality piece is super interesting and then the sperm quality. But particularly with sperm, when it comes to fertility, we're still somehow in this place where we think of fertility as a woman's health issue and we don't really think about the contribution of the male. And so the statistics tell us that 20 to 30 percent of all cases of infertility are solely related to male factor.   and 50 % of the time male factor plays a role. So that means half of the time when you're dealing with a fertility issue, his contribution is playing a role, it's a factor. So the odds are pretty good then that if you're dealing with infertility or struggling to conceive that there's something going on with his sperm. And then there's a few other studies that I found really interesting just collectively where...   when they look at different populations. So if they're doing a study, they might have a group of people who's trying to conceive and some of them conceive within the first six months or the first year and then others conceive within year one or year two. And statistically speaking, if you're taking more than a year or two to conceive, his sperm is not optimal. So on average, when they separate it out,   the sperm quality of the groups of men who are part of that cohort that it took a year or two years to conceive or more, the overall average is a lot lower. Statistically, hello, this is something we should be aware of. Getting back to what you were alluding to, when we look at older studies, the average man in the 40s had a sperm concentration of something like 113 million sperm per milliliter, which sounds like a lot.   The average man today has an average of about 50, 50 million sperm per milliliter. So there's a lot of different studies. It's widely known. It's been talked about quite a bit. It's a topic that comes up every now and then because there is this trend, this downward trend when we look at sperm counts where it's declining and it's declined anywhere up to 70%.   you know, within the last few generations. And it's a concern because what happens in 40 years, like if we continue on this downward spiral, what literally will happen? Because how much further down can we go? Right? So this highlights that it's not just an issue with your partner. It's not just these people. This is an overall trend that's affecting men on a large scale. And arguably, it's affecting us too. We just don't have the ability to test eggs like they do sperm. Like we can't just provide an egg sample.   So it's a little bit more difficult for us to kind of provide that type of information. But arguably there's something going on. And I mean, naturally the question is, well, why is this happening? And I think there's a variety of factors. So I think overall diet quality has declined. There's a huge influx in the consumption of ultra processed foods. So an ultra processed or processed food is something where you look at it and you literally can't even tell what it came from. So if you look at white, that too.   Michelle (45:01) Mm -hmm.   You can't even pronounce it.   Lisa Jack (45:10) But if you look at like white sugar or white flour, like you don't know if it came from a beet. You don't know what it came from, right? And then when you take those materials that have already been processed, lots of the nutrients, a huge portion of the nutrients that were in whatever the original food was are lost in that processing. And then you make foods with it. I mean, their solution is to fortify it back with some nutrients. But what you have is a far inferior product that is far less.   nutrient dense. And so that's a part of it. When you're consuming ultra processed foods, you're also often consuming a higher portion of carbohydrates as opposed to getting a good healthy balance of protein and fat. I mean, the 80s and 90s were all about not eating the fat, right? The fat phobia, cholesterol is bad, all the things. And what do you need for optimal fertility? Well, you need sufficient protein as the backbone that we require to make enough hormones. We need sufficient cholesterol specifically.   Michelle (45:56) All right. Yeah.   Lisa Jack (46:09) because cholesterol is a precursor for our steroid hormones. And when we consume this off balance, really high carbohydrate diet, we end up with metabolic issues and what's on the rise, right? Obesity, metabolic issues, diabetes. There's all these issues that contribute to poor sperm parameters and poor egg quality, poor fertility and reproductive outcomes. So there's a lot of different factors. And then we did even talk about the toxins, you know, every year thousands and thousands of new chemicals are created.   Michelle (46:09) Yeah.   Lisa Jack (46:38) A lot of them are similar in structure to estrogen. And in order for men to make sperm, they need testosterone. So anything that's pouring estrogen into all of their skin and all of the scented things and all the stuff we put on our body and all the chemicals and in the environment, all that stuff, none of that helps the sperm. So there's a lot of different factors we can look at that are contributing. So, I mean, this is a big topic. And one thing I just wanna make sure to mention is that...   The most common thing that I've experienced as a practitioner is that when I'm working with a client who's been trying to conceive or working on the charting and everything, I'm asking, has your partner been tested? And if he has, then it's like, yeah, but he's fine. I always say that. My favorite way, right? He's fine. We were told he was fine. He's good. But no one ever went through his analysis with you. So in the book, we actually put a table in there. We have some drawings of what sperm looks like and all this stuff. We're equipping you with all this information.   because what happens is the guidelines that they use are based off of this 2010 World Health Organization document. And in that document, they're telling you that normal parameters are a sperm concentration of 15 .15 million sperm per milliliter. I just finished telling you that the average amount of the 40s had like 10 times that amount of sperm. And so they're telling you that if his sperm is 15 .15 million,   sperm per milliliter or higher that he's fine. The motility 40%. So motility means the sperm that are moving. So does that mean 60 % aren't moving? And then the morphology being 4 % or higher. So again, morphology means if you look at it, if you think of sperm, it looks like a little circle oval head and tail. So when it doesn't have normal morphology,   Michelle (48:05) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (48:29) It means that the head could be squashed. There could be no head. There could be two heads. There could be no tail, like all that kind of stuff. And so they're saying four out of every hundred look like a normal sperm and 96 don't. And you're good to go. So what those what's important to realize about those numbers is that those normal numbers do not represent what would be optimal for conception naturally. Those numbers represent a point that below which.   Michelle (48:44) Yeah. Yeah.   Lisa Jack (48:57) there's a problem and we need to look at it. So it's a very different way of looking at it. So what we talk about in the book, there's a different study that looked at, at what point do the numbers start to have a negative impact on fertility to try to define an optimal level. And those research defined optimal as sperm concentration of 48 million sperm per milliliter or higher.   they defined a normal motility of 63 % and a normal morphology of 12%. So that's a lot higher than the World Health Organization. So what I'm saying is for couples who have been struggling to conceive, you know, if your partner hasn't been tested yet, you know, we're saying get them tested as soon as you can. Because even if you want to, if you identify an issue, it takes anywhere from a minimum of three to four months.   Michelle (49:36) Mm -hmm.   Lisa Jack (49:55) to start to see an improvement because when your partner ejaculates today, count back three months. So we're recording this in like end of February, so let's say March. So count back three months, February, January, December. So whatever he was doing in December, that determines his printout today. So whatever he does today, we're not gonna see the printout until April, May, June, right? So just to put it out there. And that's only the beginning of it, because it's not like everything's just amazing in three months. Like it can take several months for all of those changes to kick in. So.   Michelle (50:11) Right.   Lisa Jack (50:25) You know, what we're talking about then is that there's a range, a sub -fertile range that is not being looked at. Men are just being told that they're either good to go or they're not, and they're not being told that, you know, you might have, you know, beat the WHO criteria, but that doesn't make you optimal, and you still have a whole ways to go. And as long as you're not in that optimal range, it's going to mean, statistically, that it's going to take you longer to conceive.   Michelle (50:55) Oh my God, it's crazy because this information, especially if you're really actively trying to conceive, you could be wasting a lot of time not really getting the right information. Lisa, as always, you're a wealth of information, super, super smart. I really admire your brain. I'm very excited. Well, it's good to read.   Lisa Jack (51:15) I read a lot.   Michelle (51:22) And I'm very excited. I actually haven't seen your book yet. I read the first chapter. I did opt in for that. So I'm very excited because it is so rich with the information. I feel like it's really going to benefit the community in such an empowering way. So I think it's amazing that you guys did this. Really, it's such a contribution. Because a lot of people don't really know all those details. And I know that you really went into deep.   studies and presenting people with information that is not something that they're going to get presented with by mainstream. Let's just say mainstream. I feel mainstream is just not as, you're not going to get the quality from mainstream. You almost have to dig deeper to get the quality of the true real information that's going to help. So I know we're running out of time and I know that you have to go. So I just want to thank you so much for coming on. Before we,   I want you to share with the listeners how they can find the book, how they could find you, work with you, all the stuff.   Lisa Jack (52:29) Well, thank you again. Thank you so much. This is a great conversation. You had great questions. So the newest book is Real Food for Fertility and it's available on Amazon. It's currently available in our paperback and ebook formats. And Lily and I are planning to record the audiobook later this year. So we're really excited about that. So for all of the podcast listeners, it's like, when's the audiobook coming out? Like soon, soon. We're doing it as soon as we can.   Michelle (52:50) The audio people.   Lisa Jack (52:53) Yes, but we wanted to do it ourselves. I always think it's fun when the authors are able to do it themselves. So we're really looking forward to that. You can also go over to realfoodforfertility .com. You mentioned the, you know, you opted in for the first chapter. So for anyone who wants to dive into the first chapter, you can grab that over there and also find more information about Lily and myself.   And you can find me if you like podcasts, if this topic interests you, you can type Fertility Friday into your favorite podcast player and you'll find my podcast. I'm in my 10th year of podcasting. We've released over 500 episodes, which is totally wild. And so lots of lots of fun and info to be had over there. And you can find me on Instagram at Fertility Friday. That's my favorite place on the socials to hang out. And I'll just make one more note for any practitioners who are listening.   You know, this whole topic of charting, we talked about it a little bit, incorporating charting into what you're doing and using it as a vital sign for your clients. I created this resource, How to Interpret Virtually Any Chart Your Client Throws at You, that I made specifically for practitioners, and you can get that over at fertilityfriday .com slash chart.   Michelle (54:01) Fabulous. Lisa, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I really admire your   thank you so much for coming on today.   Lisa Jack (54:09) Thank you so much for having me.  

On today’s episode, I will be discussing some aspects that contribute to vitality and fertility health that are often missed on the fertility journey. Here are some topics that will be covered: Integrating Ancient and Modern Knowledge: How aspects of Taoist philosophies and TCM align with current research and what that can mean for fertility health. The Body’s Wisdom: Learn how the body possesses an inherent intelligence for conception and how aligning with our natural biological rhythms can support the path to reproduction. My Personal Experience: Hear about my own struggles with irregular periods and how this led me to explore a combination of medical perspectives and trust my intuition in making health decisions. Patterns and Cycles: Learn about the importance of recognizing natural patterns and cycles, a concept deeply rooted in Chinese medicine, and how this understanding can impact fertility. Interconnectedness: How TCM perceives a holographic nature of the universe, where everything is connected, reflecting a larger whole and its relevance to our reproductive health. Balance for Fertility: The episode highlights the critical role of balance, represented by the yin and yang, and how maintaining this equilibrium is essential for optimal health and fertility.   [Don’t forget to subscribe to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast for more empowering insights and real-world stories on the fertility journey.]   Be sure to go to this link to find out how to pre-order The Way of Fertility and receive the special gifts mentioned in this episode!   https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   Way of fertility episode [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. So if you're new to this podcast, my name is Michelle Oravitz and I'm an acupuncturist specializing in fertility health. And for people who know me have been listening to this for a while, you may have heard a couple of different announcements here and there that I am super excited. Because my new book is coming out, The Way of Fertility. And a lot of you guys might be thinking, What in the world is this book about? Is it about Chinese medicine? Is it about acupuncture points? Is it about food? Is it about supplements? What is it about?    So of course I can try to explain in the best way I can but it's almost like trying to tell a friend about another friend that you met that you really connected with and trying to put that into words and To describe the person and [00:01:00] of course, there are so many different aspects to it and it's an experience So, you'll have to read it to get that full immersion However, it really is based on ancient Wisdom so a lot of what I share is not only about ancient wisdom,   But it's also about some modern research that has been done that has shown and proven some of these things that Chinese medicine has spoken about and the energetics that basically are super important for fertility health, like the heart uterus connection.   And ultimately, this book is for the person that has tried everything to conceive and is not sure what in the world is getting in the way. So they're eating the right foods. They're doing the right things. They're having sex at the right time. They're going to the doctor. They're figuring out all the different options that they can do. They're cutting out any toxins in [00:02:00] their life, trying everything almost to the point of being stressed by all of the checklist,   But yet not having any success. And so in the book I wanted to speak about a very important aspect of our being that rarely gets attention. And it's not just the mind. I know I talk a lot about the mind, but it's more than that. And And it really comes down to this and really the statement. So unless you have some very unusual reason that's very rare, like blocked tubes or some people are born without a uterus or a genetic component that is not allowing you to conceive, then you are hardwired to conceive.   You were designed to reproduce as a human. Majority of people are designed to reproduce and the majority of cases of fertility challenges is. are not true infertility, meaning it's not [00:03:00] like impossible for them to conceive. And this is why people are listening to podcasts like mine because they know and believe that there must be something that they can do in order to improve their ability to conceive. So in the book, I look into this thing, this intelligence that has been spoken about throughout history. It's been referred to the Tao, you know, the Tao, the way. So Taoism, if you haven't listened to some of my earlier episodes, Taoism is really the, religion, or it could be considered a way of life.   That is what. Chinese medicine is based on, and a lot of these ancient medicines have a wisdom. So even Ayurveda, it really comes down to uniting and connecting with our nature. And when we are [00:04:00]expressing our nature the way it was intended to be expressed. And when we are connected with our external nature, which is the nature that is also being guided by that same intelligence that we are, then that is really living in accordance to the Tao, accordance to the way. So the Tao translates as the way this is why I was inspired to call it the way of fertility because ultimately when our bodies are fully aligned in their expression, then that is when our bodies will want to reproduce because it's kind of like a reminder. I think we forget often because we see it as such a challenge, but reproduction is what your body. It's programmed to do because that is ultimately what will continue life here on earth and you'll see it.   You'll see it everywhere. I mean, sprouts are everywhere in nature because nature [00:05:00] constantly wants to keep thriving and it will adapt to that. As well. So if you'll see a tree or even cement and through the cracks, you'll see lots of weeds. I mean, nature just constantly wants to keep on thriving and that's what it is gravitating towards.   So I speak about what gets in the way of that, because there must be something that's getting in the way of that. If the body is not expressing itself fully, and this is a very personal story for me as well. You may have heard me talk about this a lot in my own. You know, my own journey is that I had 12 years of irregular periods and irregular meaning like two months, three months, just not getting my period on time at all.   And only given the birth control pill as an answer and getting really frustrated and realizing that while. All types of medicines have their [00:06:00] gifts, not all of them know everything. So there's a time to rely on different types of medications and different types of technologies and different types of medical philosophy. But it's important to know that not everybody knows everything so that when somebody tells us there is no answer, it's important for us if we feel that intelligence speaking to us in our heart to continue getting second opinions or talking to other people and not finishing with just one and taking no for an answer, like right off the bat. And for me, I actually had to go to many different people. Before I got the answer and I had to go to a different modality in order to get the answer. So the modality that I kept going to was just not a great answer. modality for menstrual cycle health. And I've learned that is that every type of practitioner will provide tools and some of them are more fitting. So for example, if somebody[00:07:00] does have block tubes, they would benefit from IVF and the technology. And it's incredible. So. I want to state that all of them are good. There's many, many different options here, but it's important to figure out what option is best for you. And ultimately I speak very strongly about this is that your intuition is this same intelligence that basically tells your cells what to do. It's based on the same intelligence that tells an animal something's not right, or you should eat this or don't eat for a day and fast. This is an intelligence that guides us towards vitality. So when we're starting to be in a state of listening, we will ultimately be guided. So we can analyze tons of information out there and really go through that rabbit hole of Google when it comes to fertility health and just getting like being information dense and that information oftentimes is can be good, but it can [00:08:00]also take us down this path where it's confusing to us. So while it's important to have information, it's also important to tune in to your own intelligence. And I call the difference between that is vertical knowledge versus horizontal knowledge. So horizontal knowledge is just like what it seems like. It's basically information that you get from person to person. You're getting it from this material world that you're living in. You go to school, you learn. information. You're basically getting information, but you're also getting energy.   I think one of the ways that we learn is invisible. It's not something that we measure, but we must be picking up also on other types of information that we were not realizing. So it's not just even language. It could be body language. It could be energetic.   And then vertical knowledge is something that we can get from downloads. So if you have [00:09:00]meditated in the past, you will know what I'm talking about, because if you meditate long enough, you will start to get. This guidance that you can't quite put your finger on, but you know, it's there and you know, it's real. And those are the signs that you get. Those are the hunches. Those are the guidance. Like something will tell you, Hey, you know, I should call this friend. And then little, Did you know that this friend actually happens to know a great IVF clinic and finds you the best and most aligned doctor that you were looking for. So this is just one example, but that's that intuition, that feeling, that gut. And a lot of us have felt that. And a lot of times it saved us in situations that could have been dangerous. And also something that I, I know I've had, and I've heard a lot of people tell me is that when they don't listen to it, they actually remember afterwards, like, Hey, I knew that something was telling me something like something was telling me not to do something.   And I did it anyway. And I realized [00:10:00] why I felt that feeling. So next time I'm really going to listen. So that is basically your intuition guiding you. And that intuition is not as abstract as it seems.    It's actually real. It's just invisible. It's not something that we can measure, really measure. And although there were some studies that were done on intuition, also premonitions, people would have a certain type of their brain active before they saw a picture that was related to that type of activity. So that has been actually measured and seen in people. And luckily, you know, we're in a place where We are studying a lot of things that show that our minds are very powerful, but this divine intelligence, as I like to call it, I like to call it divine intelligence because it's really something that is greater than anything that we can perceive in our material world is really what the material [00:11:00] world emerges from. And what happens is we often respond or react to what. has already come from that. It's sort of like the tail end, rather than going within to that root. So it's almost like we talk about root cause medicine and root cause medicine is all about going to that initial place where the something emerged and manifested in the body rather than going to the manifestation, just putting a bandaid or cutting it out. We want to know where is it coming from in the first place? Where is this pattern coming from? So we have our own patterns and our life is also a pattern. So just like it manifests in the body, it can manifest in a life and it can go out to infinity. And Chinese medicine always talks about the map. The macro and the micro so that everything is a hologram and what that means is that The part reflects the whole, and the whole could be found in the part. So, [00:12:00] our bodies have their own ecosystem, and nature has its own ecosystem, and just like we have cycles, nature has cycles, and it can go on and on and on into the universe, and you'll see cycles everywhere. And so basically what these medicines and this ancient wisdom is based on is this wisdom of understanding and this insight of really looking and observing nature. And it really comes down to a very elementary thing. It's not complicated as we make it to be. We actually innately understand this. because we are made of it. So we know this in ourselves. So it really comes down to, and I speak about this also in the book is the yin and the yang, this homeostasis, this balance that the body always wants to go to. And that is what makes nature thrive. And so when we get out of balance, by overriding this intelligence. Then that is when we start to [00:13:00] veer out of alignment. But the body's incredibly intelligent because it will let you know when you're out of alignment. It will give you symptoms, it'll give you emotions, it'll give you a feeling of discomfort. It's speaking to you all the time. The problem is that we're not really aware. And the reason we're not aware is because we're distracted by so much of the noise outside of us. And so if you look at a lot of ancient teachings, even though you can consider them horizontal knowledge, a lot of them will point you inwards so that you can connect to that. Vertical knowledge, and that vertical knowledge is where you go within yourself and you download the information from the source of your own intelligence and the intelligence that made you. I'll be honest, I've known this for a long time  but this knowing that I had and that I've had for a long time, didn't initially come from research. It [00:14:00] didn't initially come from the outside. It might've been inspired by some books, but ultimately a lot of it came from my own connection to that source, that source intelligence. And when I got connected to that source intelligence, it. It guided me in my life. So oftentimes fertility health is looked at as the manifestation so the manifestation of the body and how it is translating from the imbalance people are trying to fix  and ultimately, unless you resolve the foundation from where things emerge, then they're going to continue to emerge over and over again. And part of that is also staying in this identification, because once we identify our minds, identify, we create a mental home. And that too can get in the way of fertility health or really any health. And ultimately people think of it as just [00:15:00]fertility health, but fertility health is an emergence and a by product of overall health. So I'll go back to my architecture days. before you build anything, first of all, you go to the blueprint, which is the intelligence, the guidance, and then you go to the foundation and that foundation has to hold the rest of the house. So imagine the foundation as you, as your health and your overall health that relies on so many different things and not just the physical, but also the energetics of your body and the mind and how you feel your spirit.  And so, so many people have come to me and said, I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything right. I'm doing everything and nothing's happening. And as they're telling me, I can feel, I can sense the stress. and the pressure that they feel to try to get all of the checks off the list. So it comes down to diet and also [00:16:00] feeling really stressed out about diet and upset if they ate something bad and detoxing their whole life. And while I'm very big on Those things. And I do talk about them a lot and I have guests that come on and talk about them. Of course they're important, but nothing is so important that it takes out your peace of mind. So if it means you're not doing it perfectly, then don't do it perfectly. allow yourself to feel ease. And then ultimately, I do want to mention that if you are connected to that divine intelligence within you, that divine intelligence will actually guide you towards intuitive eating. It's going to guide you towards what is good for you in your life. And so the more you come from a place of being centered, so this is again from the inside out, not the outside in, when you're coming from within and balancing that internal energy and connecting yourself to that intelligence that knows your highest and [00:17:00] best good, it will guide you towards the right people, the right things, the right information, the right food. So ultimately this book is inspired by that, by how to get back to yourself in order to live not only a fertile life, but your best life.  And so yes, this is definitely a fertility book, but it's a life book too. So instead of focusing on all of the details, which can literally make us crazy  we focus on what it means to come back home and come back home to ourselves and come from a place where we are whole and really wholeness is what healing is. So healing is wholeness. It's coming from a place where we become more consolidated so that our body. aligns to this vitality effortlessly. And part of this is living in flow and having this effortless effort that you will see [00:18:00] oftentimes in nature. Nature doesn't hold on, it moves on. It moves and flows however it needs to go. It's not stagnated. It knows how to overcome challenges.  Even after really difficult challenges like hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, nature will always rebound and that really comes down to this intelligence within it. When we veer away from that nature, we will start to stagnate. And our emotions start to stagnate if they don't move through the way they're supposed to. So I talk about how it is important to validate your feelings, not negate them, validate them. The more we embrace them, the easier it is for them to move. And the importance of honoring ourselves at every moment and the importance of presence. And I share in my book, golden nuggets that I have collected throughout the years and just with my own [00:19:00]studies and learning through doing this kind of work, the powerful medicine that is love and how love can impact your heart and how even modern research is supporting that really proving that the heart does in fact, house the mind. So I take you through a journey inward to understand your own inner terrain and to empower yourself so that you can move on through this journey with a sense of empowerment and also as a cherry on top improved fertility health. I share some of my. My most favorite stories of clients and patients, stories that defy the predictions that lots of these women were given. I share exercises that are simple and easy to do. I share tricks that you can use to really impact the mind almost instantaneously. I feel like this work was definitely a work of the [00:20:00] heart and I feel like not only was there research in it and information that I learned, but a lot of it was divinely guided to the point where something would emerge in my mind. I was like, I need to put this in a chapter. I knew that. The book was not complete until I felt like, okay, I got it all out. And I would literally have these thoughts and something moving me like a little piece of the puzzle that needed to fit in to certain areas of the book. So I do believe that it was divinely guided  as a message for the readers. And even though I give lots of tips on what to do, I also discuss the importance of doing less. I feel like this book was a sacred creation that I got to be part of, and I am so blessed to have had this experience of writing it. And I'm so excited for it to reach you. And so I wanted to share. a couple of really cool things. At the moment that I'm recording this right now, [00:21:00] and hopefully it's not too late. If it is too late, that's not a problem. You can eventually go ahead and find it anyway. It's out. But if you're listening to this close to when I am releasing this episode, Then you are in the window of pre order. So right now, as I'm releasing this episode, the book, the way of fertility is available for pre order. You will be able to get all of this information in the episode notes. So basically what I'm saying is that if anybody goes and pre orders the book and sends me A submission, and you'll see the form, where you prove that you pre ordered the book, and the submission will include your email. You will receive lifetime access to the 2022 and 2023 empower your fertility summits, which has lots of amazing fertility[00:22:00] experts, as well as fertility bonuses. So that's incredible because each one is 97 and you're going to receive two just for pre ordering the book. And by the way, if you pre order the book, you're also getting money off. It's on a discounted price, so you're not only getting a discounted price, but you're also getting lifetime access for two Empower Your Fertility Summits. But that's not all. The first 50 people who submit proof We'll be able to join a live, The Way of Fertility workshop where you will get to ask me questions and we're going to talk about the book and anything that comes to your mind, you will be able to ask me. And of course you're thinking, okay, well, if I pre order, I'm not going to have the book. I'm not going to have the book. I'm not going to have questions. We're not going to do this workshop right away. I will wait a month after, and I will take the first 50 [00:23:00] people, send them an email, and explain exactly when this workshop will take place. So no need to worry about that. But that's not all. I'm also going to enter. Everyone, not just the first 50, every single person is going to be entered into a draw. So whoever submits proof of their pre order in the form that I'm going to be sharing is going to be entered into a draw and the first prize Which is freaking fabulous, not just fabulous, but incredibly generous, and I've been told you're nuts, nuts for doing this, but I'm doing it anyway. So, the first prize will be getting immediate access to my signature fertility program, the Wholesome Fertility Method, of almost 1, [00:24:00] 000. Okay. And then prize number two, two of the winners that are going to be taken from the draw will get immediate access to the Wholesome Moon. So it's my cycle hacking program, which is veered towards optimizing your menstrual cycle. To help with fertility with fertility in mind. So two winners get that, and that's a value of almost 400. So either way you win, because you will get freebies and freebies that costs. Lots of money. So this is a no brainer like literally don't even think about it because it's like you're literally You're already gaining Tons of money right off the bat and you're basically gaining to empower of your fertility summits but you're not for just the amount of money that it costs for the pre order, which is already a discounted price on simply a book. [00:25:00] So here's something that you might want to think about if you have family members that really want you to win and they decide to buy an ebook for you to submit their names and then they get it. So you could do that as well. So this is something that If you feel like somebody's like, okay, I really want you to get this. And I'm going to order a book. So the books are discounted. So, you know, this is just an option, but I know that as much as you are getting value just from submitting proof that you pre ordered the book, you are going to get immense value from the book. Itself.  And I'm going to suggest that you look into this. today because if you don't, it's, you're going to forget about it. Cause that's just the way of the world. You're going to get distracted and you're going to forget about it. So if I were you and if you're on the fertility journey and this is like a win win, I mean, really like a huge win for you, you [00:26:00] might as well just look at it today. Click on the link. It's going to have all the details And don't wait because if you are within the window of pre order, which is the rest of March 2024, and half of April 2024, then you're going to get insane value. However, if you did miss it, you're still going to get insane value from the book itself. So thank you for taking the time and listening to this episode because I'm just so excited for this book to reach the masses because it felt divinely inspired. It was something that I really felt called to, to the point where I feel a sense of relief now that it's out. It felt like something I needed to create. I wanted to inspire hope. I wanted to also reawaken a belief in your own body and I also wanted it to reawaken empowerment. because I feel like we [00:27:00] are just so much more powerful than we've ever imagined. So I share so many reasons on how powerful we are that is supported by some research. And if you do happen to read it, and find something in it inspiring. You can always reach out to me. I love getting DMs on Instagram and I do my best to respond to every one of them.  You can always find me on my handle at the wholesome Lotus fertility.   So thank you for spending this time with me. And I hope you have a beautiful day. 

Holly Leever is a licensed acupuncturist, herbalist, Arvigo abdominal massage therapist and Fertility Awareness Method educator. She works with women to optimize their menstrual cycles and their fertility. She founded her practice, Rosebud Wellness in 2014, and works with clients locally in Ojai, CA and virtually all over the world. When Holly isn’t solving period problems, she is spending time with her sweet daughter, practicing yoga, gardening or cooking.   Website - rosebudwellness.com IG - https://www.instagram.com/rosebud_wellness/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/hollyrosebudwellness Free FAM Video - https://rosebudwellness.com/opt-in-free-training-how-to-track-and-chart-your-cycle-to-support-your-body-for-optimal-health-and-fertility Holly’s Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fertile-womb-natural-fertility-optimization/id1568908543   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   For Fertility Resources: https://www.thewholesomelotusfertility.com/fertilityresources   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Holly.   Holly Leever (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle. I'm really excited to be here.   Michelle (00:05) I'm excited to have a fellow acupuncturist here. It's always fun talking   to my   Holly Leever (00:09) It is   Michelle (00:10) my acupuncture family.   Holly Leever (00:10) Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (00:12) Awesome. So give us a little background on yourself and what got you into women's health specifically, infertility,   acupuncture.   Holly Leever (00:20) so it's a long and winding road, like all of our stories, right? But I started studying acupuncture when I was pretty young. I was just naturally really interested in yoga and holistic health and nutrition. It just kind of came out of the womb that way for some reason. And I went to acupuncture school and I learned about how hormonal birth control...   could potentially be impacting some of the issues that I was experiencing at the time. And when you're really young, you can get away with a lot. And so I didn't feel terrible, but I hadn't had a natural period. I probably had three in my whole life at that point and I was 24. So I started, yeah.   Michelle (01:10) Wait, so give us a background. So when did you first get your period? When did you first start and then when did you get on the birth control pill?   Holly Leever (01:18) Yeah, so that's the tricky part, the annoying part, is that I got my first period when I was 14, and I was already on birth control by the time I was 15. So I don't remember exactly how many months, and I would only get it every three months. So I went to the gynecologist and I was like, oh, is that, I mean, I had enough of an awareness to know that it was supposed to happen every month at the time, and they were just like, oh, that's really...   Michelle (01:29) Uh.   Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (01:46) problematic and here you can just have the birth control pill to regulate your cycle, of course. And I did have pretty significant period pain too. I think it was just young bodies don't just start menstruating perfectly right away and having significant period pain I think also was partially related to my diet at the time. I grew up really just eating   Michelle (02:00) Yeah.   Holly Leever (02:10) Total crap food, just convenience foods, only snacky kind of things, really had no guidance around nutrition at all. And I think the period pain was partially related to that, and also just being young and my body doing something new for the first time. I did become sexually active really early too, at 15. And so I do think it was maybe helpful that I didn't get pregnant when I was 15 years old. And...   Michelle (02:36) Yeah.   Holly Leever (02:38) I wish that I had a little bit more education about what it was actually doing to my body. I had a lot of emotional struggles as a teenager and who knows if that's just being a teenager, how that manifested for me or how much of it was related to synthetic hormone exposure at such a young age. And so then I developed a really severe eating disorder during the end of high school, really through college. So that was part of...   Even the times, sometimes I would stop taking birth control within that nine year timeframe of from 15 to 24. Sometimes I would stop taking it if I wasn't in a relationship and I really just never would have a period. So it was almost like that part of me was completely removed from my experience of being in a female body. So then when I went to acupuncture school, as I'm sure you know, and maybe a lot of your listeners do too, that...   it's a really central piece of understanding a female's overall health and wellbeing is what their period looks like. We were talking about the color of the blood and how frequently it comes. And I mean, there are so much more that I know about it now as a fertility awareness method educator, but even that little seed of women's period is really important for assessing their health. I was sort of like, oh.   I guess I'm completely missing that whole part of the equation of, you know, being able to really understand this medicine. And so I stopped taking the pill really immediately after that I found that out. I remember that it was, I started school in September and then by October, November, I stopped taking it, just completely stopped taking it and never, and have not taken it since.   But then I didn't have my period for a few years after I stopped taking it because I was still struggling with my eating disorder. And one of the things that I find really interesting about eating disorders and under nutrition is that people think sort of like you have to have this like raging, horrible eating disorder, which at times I really did. I was very severely anorexic at times.   Michelle (04:34) Mm hmm.   Holly Leever (04:53) And at other times, not so much. Like you could look at me and think like, oh, that looks like just like a healthy woman. You wouldn't really think she's, you know, nutrient depleted, but it was for me, always this relationship with food, you know, not prioritizing optimal nutrition was sort of the issue for me. So it would be, maybe my weight would look okay.   Michelle (05:19) Right.   Holly Leever (05:22) but I wasn't getting in the amount of protein and fat and carbohydrate structure and having regular meals and things like that. That was really the issue for me. So a lot of my time through acupuncture school, that four years that I was in acupuncture school was spent trying to figure that out. And sometimes I would get a period and I'd be like, oh, what was like the perfect cocktail of things that I did that made that happen? And it was just...   So, I mean, now to me, it's so obvious. It was that I let go of the reins a little bit and ate a little bit more. And then I would just be like, oh my God, that was too much. And I would go too far and freak out. And then I would lose my period again. So it's just kind of very intermittently getting it here and there. Then I finally went into residential treatment center a few times for my eating disorder. And that was the catalyst really for...   Michelle (05:59) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (06:20) being able to kick it finally. And it wasn't until I was 32, so not terribly long ago, that I started learning the fertility awareness method because I had been single for a lot of my life. I think anybody that has struggled with an eating disorder understands that it's very isolating experience that you kind of don't wanna date. You don't want anybody to look at or touch your body. And I was feeling interested in maybe   Like, can I have children and can I have a family? I'm 32, like, what am I doing with my life? And although I didn't have a partner at the time, I was kind of getting curious about my fertility and if I had kind of destroyed my body at that point, you know, it's like, has it been too long? And so for anybody that has struggled with hypothalamic amenorrhea, which really is what that is, whether it's an eating disorder or if it's just disordered.   or under eating or over exercise, stress, like some combination of those things. Anybody that has had that experience, especially if it's been for a significant amount of time, which for me, it's kind of like 10 to 15 years, like most of my adult life was spent not menstruating. And then to fast forward to the end of my story, I do have a daughter. So, when I was 32, I was in this place of...   Michelle (07:18) Right.   Holly Leever (07:45) I had just gotten out of my most recent residential stay. Every time I would go, I would get my period back. It was very obviously nutritionally related. So we can take all these teas and even getting acupuncture. I got so much acupuncture. I was on so many herbal formulas throughout acupuncture school and I just needed to eat more. And they would always say that to me. And you're only able to receive and really integrate.   Michelle (07:51) Mm-hmm. Wow.   Holly Leever (08:14) what's being recommended to you when it's the right time for you or whatever. So it is what it is, but that was really what my system needed. And so when I was 32 is really when a big transformation happened in my life where I really kicked my eating disorder. It's not something that you just all of a sudden are cured from, but that was a really pivotal time where I haven't really looked back.   Michelle (08:18) Yeah.   Holly Leever (08:44) Um, since that it's only kind of been getting better since then. And I started learning the fertility awareness method with my teacher, Lisa Hendricks and Jack. So she has, she hasn't made she, maybe she's been on this podcast. I don't know. I think you've been on hers. I know too. Um, but yeah, fertility Friday is an awesome podcast for anybody out there. I it's she's really, oh, that's so. Yeah.   Michelle (08:54) Love her. Yes, yeah.   It inspired me to start mine, my podcast. Oh yeah, I love her. I got so much information from her podcast. It was just, she's such a wealth of knowledge.   Holly Leever (09:14) She... And that podcast is the tip of the iceberg in terms of what that woman knows. It's really, really amazing. And yeah, so I started to study with her really just personally at first. I was like, okay, I want to be in a relationship and I don't want to accidentally get pregnant and I don't ever want to go back on birth control. So like, what do I do?   Michelle (09:22) I know.   Holly Leever (09:41) And so I started learning about the fertility awareness method from her. And I took her fertility awareness mastery program where you can, you know, she had two groups at the time. I'm not sure how she structures it now, but one was like the pregnancy prevention group and the other was the conception group. So I was in the pregnancy prevention group and was just learning so much about. How my body worked and you know, what it meant.   that my period would just go missing and also gave me a lot of insight into sort of like catching myself before I go too far. I think anybody that has had an experience with an eating disorder or being underweight, there's this tendency that even now I still have to be really conscious of making sure that I'm getting like...   planning meals and like really prioritizing that because my tendency is still to under eat because it was so ingrained in me for such a long period of time. So for example, in the fertility awareness method, now I can see like if my temperatures start to get a little below what's more optimal or like if my mucus pattern is a little bit different because I've learned all of these like subtle details of learning how to read.   Michelle (10:46) Hmm.   Holly Leever (11:03) what's going on with my fertility. It really opened up a whole other space of just in the hypothalamic amenorrhea space, which is actually, it seems kind of like it's becoming more of a hot topic thing these days where people are like actually specializing in just hypothalamic amenorrhea. A lot of times the focus is on the period. It's like we're getting the period back, but it's sometimes missing.   that actually you can't even have a period if it's not preceded by ovulation. And if we're not tracking ovulation with mucus and basal body temperature, potentially LH strips or OPKs, I use those in my practice too sometimes, cervical position. If we're not tracking all of these things, we can be having bleeds even at regular intervals, which I do think this is part of what was happening to me. I'd have these like random bleeds where I'd be like,   what did I do right this time that I had that random bleed? It may have been an ovulatory. So all that means just for, I know you know what it means, but for anybody that's listening, if you don't know, it just basically means that you are bleeding, but it hasn't been preceded by an ovulatory phase, basically. So you didn't actually ovulate. Your estrogen levels just built up enough to build up an endometrial lining, and then it's just being...   shed, but it is not an indication that your body's actually going through a very health promoting process of ovulation before that. So anyway, that was kind of my basic story into learning fertility awareness. And now, several years later, I had actually started...   working with it a little bit with my clients. I was trying to have them do temperature and track their mucus. And what I was noticing is that you can read from a textbook. And I even learned from Lisa, I learned sort of like the basics and I learned how my body works. But it's really different to learn about the basics from a book and other like online resources. And then also just learning about your own body and being able to apply that in working.   with actual patients because what I have found in my practice is that many of them don't follow and including me, I definitely have never followed what's in the textbook. So I've never ovulated on day 14. I've never had a 28 day or 30. Maybe the shortest cycle I've ever had is 30 days and that was like miraculous. So yeah, I mean, I will say that I was feeling somewhat limited and then Lisa created this.   Michelle (13:22) Yeah.   Mm-hmm   Holly Leever (13:49) program for practitioners called the fertility awareness mastery mentorship. So it's different from just the, like for women to learn about their own cycles. It's a practitioner program for women that want to learn or not. Yeah, it is women only, but for women that want to learn how to incorporate it into their existing women's healthcare practice.   And I actually wanted to do it the first year that she launched it, but I had just had my daughter. So that goes back to my personal stories that I did end up meeting my daughter's dad and I did get pregnant and had a healthy pregnancy after 10 to 15 years of amenorrhea and thinking that my body was probably broken.   being told by doctors that my body was probably going to be broken or I was going to need fertility drugs and things like that. I didn't do anything other than optimize my nutrition. Even now with how much I've learned from Lisa and so many other resources since that time, which was she's going to be four next month.   there are things I would have done differently in terms of optimizing nutrition and lifestyle and other things that maybe I think could have made it even more wonderful. But I had a really healthy pregnancy, really wonderful birth at home. And yeah, I'm just really amazed by the human body that when you give it what it needs, it will perform.   I don't know, perform isn't really the right word, but function optimally. And fertility is part of optimal function for women, whether they want to get pregnant or not. I mostly work with women that want to get pregnant. So that's sort of the lens in which I see everything. Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) Yeah.   Me too. But yeah, I mean that I always say it's just a reflection of overall health. If it doesn't have the resources or if it's at a deficit, it's going to, you know, it's not going to give you what you want or it's not going to be functioning optimally and it's definitely not going to prioritize reproductive health. That's for sure. So that's, and a lot of what you're saying is pretty much my history. I mean, I had the same thing like three months cycles.   Holly Leever (16:08) Okay.   Michelle (16:16) And this is what I, you know, for a couple of years, and then I went to the doctor, he put me on the birth control pill and it was just like on and off, on and on and off. Um, there was a time where I also under eight, I was in college and I guess I probably did. I mean, I never really called it that, but I had a bit of an eating disorder myself. There were times where I was like, I want to, you know, look really thin. Like this next person that just is genetically a lot thinner build than I am.   And it was kind of like this thing I just got in my head. And so for a little while, I mean, it was on and off for me, but it definitely impacted my hormones. It was all over the place. So.   Holly Leever (16:54) I mean, even what has been normalized in our culture, like in, I remember magazines when I, I don't know what it kind of trashes in there these days, but I actually was reading them when I was in high school or whatever. And they would talk about like 1200 calorie diets. That's an eating disorder. If I eat that amount of calories, I'm very, very underweight. I mean, maybe somebody could do that if they're like four feet tall or something, but.   Michelle (17:12) Yeah.   Yeah, no, I mean, we need the   nutrients for sure. I mean, that's what it is. It really comes down to that. It comes down to energy. And so it's not even about eating, it's about what you're eating. Because as we know, just like a chi in the body, food has chi as well. And so there's some food that's kind of very low chi, very low energy or vitality, let's say.   Holly Leever (17:25) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (17:45) and versus live whole foods which are way more nourishing and nutrient dense for the body. So those are all important aspects. But as you were talking, you know, and this is something that I've thought about recently, and it's not something that's often talked about, but we're in the fertility world. And do you tend to see, because there's such like, there are a lot of rules, you know, you have to like be, you know, avoid   toxins and you have to eat certain foods and you have to do this and that and the other. And I feel like if you have a tendency or have any history with eating disorder or some sense of obsessive compulsion for your life, it can trigger that. Being on the fertility journey and focusing, even if you're trying quote unquote naturally, it can trigger that feeling. And that can be very...   stressful on top of like everything else.   Holly Leever (18:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, man, this is something I think about pretty much every day. Because, yeah, my experience in residential treatment for my eating disorder was very much based on, I guess, conventional guidelines of optimal nutrition, like low fat and pretty carb heavy.   and just kind of, and very weight goal based. And at the time, I think that was what I needed. I needed to just like know rules and they would have things like fun foods and there's a perspective of choosing relationship with other people over your eating disorder. So for example, if your friends want to go out for ice cream and you're like, oh no, I'm like too, I mean, this is...   very much something that I experienced, like totally not gonna go to that. I do not wanna eat ice cream or, you know, there were times that I would go and just not eat it or whatever. And so the choosing relationship was something that really resonated with me. And now I think about a lot too, with a young daughter of how I want to model things for her. And so I will say that my own approach to food, like for myself,   Michelle (20:05) Yeah.   Holly Leever (20:11) now is one of really trying to get optimal nutrition in when it's available to me, and also not to demonize anything primarily for her. And yeah, and also for her relationship with other people and knowing that, you know, if a friend gives you something, even if it's not like the healthiest thing ever.   that you know that your body is strong because it's mostly exposed to really nutrient dense foods. And the tricky part about that, because when I was in treatment, it was definitely like, this is what I'm doing right now. I'm like recovering from my eating disorder. So there's like the psychological piece of it, where I do think that it can be helpful in that kind of situation where like, yes, just get yourself to do the things that are hard for you.   so that you can overcome this psychological aspect of it. I had someone on my podcast that focuses a lot on just like body neutrality, not necessarily related to fertility, but it feels relevant because one of the things she struggled with was rheumatoid arthritis. And if she eats gluten or dairy, it flares it and it really hurts. And she said that she prioritizes her mental health over that.   physical experience. So she just still eats gluten and dairy, even though she knows it makes it worse. So that's something that's really empowering, I think, for people that if you know how things are affecting you and you're, you get to make that choice about like what the priority is. So for me, I, I like to feel really good. And part of my job is relies on me feeling really good.   energetically, you know, when I'm doing acupuncture, I do feel, or just being present with my client, like it feels to me, I know that I feel better if I'm eating a higher protein, higher fat, and that I'm eating mostly whole foods. So that's, that's a priority for me. And I do have to be thoughtful about like, is this an eating disorder? Like, am I kind of making myself crazy? Thanks.   So in the HA space, a lot of it is just like, fill yourself with, and I talked about this on my own podcast and Lisa's podcast. And my hope is that it's not triggering for anybody that's going through that experience because I do think it can be relevant and helpful to like eat, I'm trying not to say specific foods because I don't wanna demonize anyone food, but to eat things that are, you know, like more processed or something like that.   that you really like that brings a lot of joy to your life and also helps you to get over the psychological aspect of it. I think there's space for that. I don't think that just cramming yourself full of things that make you feel crappy, which was my first experience in residential. I was there for a really long time, for four months I was living in this place with this   you know, not so health promoting food and very based on like weight gain. And I, I did get my period back and I do think it was a step on the journey. And I, I feel. I also, after that left and lost a ton of weight, even more than I had before. So I, I went kind of the opposite direction because I was pushed so far.   Michelle (23:55) Bye.   Holly Leever (23:55) away from where I really wanted to be, I felt awful. And I don't think that is optimal health or fertility if you feel awful. But it's such a nuanced conversation. And this is where I think the individualized work in fertility is so important because I can say all these things about, you know, like optimize getting 100 to 150 grams of protein per day and having a balance of nutrition or recommend.   certain dietary resources like Real Food for Pregnancy is one of my favorite books. And I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the new book yet, but there's another new book that's coming out soon that is a really great resource that I've just recently read through and been wowed by. But it is also about making it...   Michelle (24:34) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (24:46) it fitting into your life. So one of the things that I do a lot is I have women fill out a food log and also like a lifestyle log of how they're sleeping, what their screen time is like, what they're eating, you know, any number of things, what the exercise level is like. And then I make specific recommendations for each individual woman about what will be most supportive for her and what actually feels possible for her.   Michelle (25:13) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (25:14) If a woman is super busy and traveling all the time, she's not going to be able to eat like I do because I'm home cooking all the time. I'm home a lot of the time. That's not possible for everybody. So I also have a lot of ideas and ways that I work with women on getting in optimal nutrition that doesn't have to be done in such a specific way where you're tied to the kitchen all the time unless you want to be.   Michelle (25:20) Right.   Holly Leever (25:43) Yeah, it's a very nuanced, nuanced conversation that in an HA situation in particular, really requires individualized support, in my opinion.   Michelle (25:55) Yeah, for sure. I mean, the way I look at it in general is it's all a strategy. So that's how I see it with every patient. It really depends on their circumstance and what they feel and ultimately like what aligns for them. And if it's too much of a push, then people retract and it's not realistic. So everything has to be small steps to get to that point. Building a foundation, that's for sure.   Holly Leever (26:22) Yeah, one of the things that I shared about when I recorded my own podcast about HA is that if I went from, you know, where I was at, the first time I went to treatment was when I was 29. If I were to contemplate eating what I do now, back then, there's no way I could do that. There's no way. I needed to have these like bridges throughout my journey. And I do think that one of the things   Michelle (26:45) Yeah.   Holly Leever (26:52) found really helpful during my own, it wasn't really a fertility journey because I was sort of just doing it anyway, like not necessarily thinking about, it wasn't like I went through a long, like trying to conceive phase. I just did get pregnant because I had already optimized my fertility because I saw its relevance to my overall health.   I would maybe do a few things a little bit differently now.   Michelle (27:21) Yeah, I mean, it's always that way. I think we look back and there's so many things that we could have done differently. And, you know, that's, I guess that's hindsight. Hindsight is so perfectly clear versus like looking into the future. And that's, I think that really teaches us to be easy on ourselves and give us ourselves some grace and, and that I think is what helps the recovery is just.   Holly Leever (27:24) Yeah.   Yes, exactly.   Michelle (27:49) giving yourself that love and grace and acceptance, and also meeting yourself where you are. I think that's ultimately, it's very healing to do so. It feels more soothing, honestly, on the soul and on the body. And it's more realistic. It's more, it's something that you can really adopt and take in to your life.   Holly Leever (27:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Absolutely, yes.   Michelle (28:11) in a way that's going to last. So as far as, well, fertility awareness is amazing because I think a lot of people don't realize just how powerful it is. But for people who are not as familiar with it, what is it besides I think people think of the BBT, like basal body temperature charting, besides that obviously it's so much more.   Holly Leever (28:23) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (28:34) I look at it like a body awareness.   mindfulness practice of your menstrual cycle.   Holly Leever (28:39) Absolutely. Yeah. So fertility awareness, like the term fertility awareness, is kind of just having a basic understanding of how your fertility works. But the fertility awareness method, there are actually many different types and I'm not an expert on all of them. I have been trained by Lisa, so she's been very much informed by the justice method, but she doesn't exclusively teach that.   And it is a symptom thermal method, what I have been trained in. So that means we're tracking symptoms like cervical position and cervical mucus and thermal temperature. So we're tracking BBT. So there are other methods that only use mucus or use urine metabolites to test hormones and things like that. So what I'm sharing about is purely based on the style that I've been trained in. So there's definitely differences and definitely differences in the way that they chart that we all.   chart things, so it's a little bit tricky to interpret another method's charting because they don't always line up perfectly. But the method that I've been trained in is pretty similar to the Taking Charge of Your Fertility, which most people that know anything about fertility and fertility awareness know about that book. And that was my first exposure.   I don't know what your acupuncture education was like, but I know that all we learned about was BBT and it was sort of this like general awareness that this could tell women about their fertility, but there was really not any more detail given about all of the implications of what you can actually learn from the fertility awareness method, not just from a fertility perspective, but also from a health and metabolic function.   perspective. So yeah, so we're tracking BBT, basal body temperature. So that's just your waking temperature. So you take your temperature first thing when you wake up in the morning before you drink or talk or go to the bathroom or anything like that. And in the method I teach, there are some very specific guidelines around that, that I'm not going to go into everything because we'd be here forever. That's a lot of the work that I do. So that's the first part of it. And then from that, you create a chart.   Michelle (30:51) I'm sorry.   Holly Leever (30:58) you know, an XY graph, and then there's the cycle days and the temperature. I use Fahrenheit because I'm in America, but there's also Celsius charts available. I use the Read Your Body app with my clients or paper charts. I don't ever recommend using any of the apps that have any predictions. I used to use another app, but I just recently learned that they started adding predictions into their method.   And so I don't recommend that one anymore. So it's a big bummer when that happens. And if women have enough awareness about how it actually works, then if, as long as they can ignore the predictions and the algorithms and things, that's fine. But especially as you're learning, it makes things way more confusing. I've had women that have, they have like two different apps and then they're also taking their temperature and they're so confused because they're like.   Michelle (31:53) Yeah.   Holly Leever (31:56) This one tells me I'm ovulating here. And then my chart says something different. And I'm like, OK, that's because there's a lot of inaccuracy here. And the best way to know what's going on inside of your body in terms of your fertility is to actually track it manually yourself. Lisa compares it to the weather. If you can look on.   the weather prediction app or whatever and see what they think is gonna be happening, or you could walk outside and go see what's happening. You know? So that's really what the, I love that comparison because it's such an obvious thing. Like nobody would be like, is it raining? Or like they would just go outside. So the other part of it is cervical mucus tracking, which that is a lot of the education that is different. Learning how to do BBT is really pretty straightforward.   Michelle (32:27) I like that. That's good.   Holly Leever (32:50) And once you learn how to do it and the things that can impact your temperature, like the amount that you sleep. So you do need to have, in the method that I've been trained in, five hours of uninterrupted sleep, there's other methods that say that less sleep than that is fine. So I always recommend just doing your best and taking your temperature and always noting if there's something out of the ordinary.   but it can be impacted by alcohol, traveling, so many different things. So those are all things that I teach people about and then they learn to mark in their chart so that we can most accurately analyze what's going on with temperature. But it really is pretty straightforward. Like in a healthy cycle, you'll have a temperature shift and it will stay high throughout the entire luteal phase. So that's from ovulation until the day before the next period. And it should be within an optimal range   the pre-ovulatory phase and in the post-ovulatory phase. So that's part of the work that I do, which is an indication of metabolic function. And that's one of the reasons that I'm so obsessed with talking about protein is because getting adequate protein regularly throughout the day is really important for metabolic function. And that will show up in your temperature.   Also thyroid function too will usually show up in the temperature too, but we need to make sure that we're accurately tracking temperature first before we can draw any diagnostic conclusions from what we're seeing in the chart. So cervical mucus is the other part of it. So we have a very, in this method, a very specific way of collecting cervical mucus. So I use external wiping.   So usually when women will come to me, they'll be like, I saw this in my underwear and I pulled this out of my vagina. And you know, like there's, they're so confused about what they're actually tracking. And there's not any, there's not like a consistent way that they're tracking it to reduce the variables in kind of assessing what's really going on. So we use this external wiping method and then looking at the toilet paper and.   taking the mucus off of the toilet paper and stretching it between your fingers. So it is a more intimate type of fertility awareness, but it doesn't require you to actually insert your finger unless you're tracking cervical position. And as someone, I totally left this out of my own story, but it was a significant part of my story that I had really painful sex and the insertion of anything, a finger tampon, like...   Michelle (35:19) Yeah.   Holly Leever (35:20) really painful for me for a lot of my life, which I think was also connected to under nutrition and having such low estrogen levels and also being on birth control can shrink your vaginal canal, which I only learned within the past couple of years. And I think that was part of what was happening for me. So for other women that I've worked with, it's painful for them to insert their finger. So we don't use cervical position tracking and   Michelle (35:46) Right.   Holly Leever (35:49) it's really great that they don't have to do the internal checks for cervical mucus either for that reason. And it can also be more confusing if you're doing internal checks because there isn't really ever a day that your vagina is totally dry. So it makes your dry days harder to identify. And I mean, this is where there is a difference between textbook learning and actual in the field experience.   Michelle (36:07) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (36:19) in, if you look in a textbook, it's just like, Oh, they, a woman has her period, then she has dry days, then she has mucus, then she ovulates, then she goes back to dry days. And most of the women in my practice cycles don't look like that when we first start working together. And part of that is, you know, I've talked about my eating disorder, but I, there's a, most of the women I work with are nutrient depleted.   And it's not because they're intentionally trying to under eat or lose weight most of the time, it's because there hasn't been adequate education on what is actually optimal nutrition for a human. You know, we've just been so, I know in my family, it was just like convenience based. And a lot of the women that I work with, it's very much convenience based. So maybe they're getting enough overall calories, but they're not getting.   Michelle (36:53) Mm-hmm.   Holly Leever (37:11) actual nutrients from those calories, for example. My friend just sent me a reel from this guy and he was like an avocado and this like Snickers thing have like the same amount of calories. But in terms of nutrient density, there's really no comparison of what that, the message that that's going to send to your body about what to do with that food. So.   Michelle (37:27) Right.   Yeah.   Holly Leever (37:36) I went off into a little nutrition tangent again, but it's so relevant to cervical mucus production. So I see all sorts of issues with cervical mucus production, whether it's limited or if the mucus phase is too long, if there is mucus in the post-ovulatory phase. And this is the difference between taking her, Lisa's, class in learning how to chart my own cycle versus learning how to apply it for many, many women. This is what we...   Michelle (37:41) Bye.   Holly Leever (38:05) learn about is how to really get into the nitty gritty details about like, what does this mucus mean? And the other part that I'll say about fertility awareness is that although we're getting into the nitty gritty details about BBT and cervical mucus and cervical position, any individual like day or data point is sort of irrelevant outside of the context of the full chart. It's just like Chinese medicine. I'm sure that   Michelle (38:33) Yeah.   Holly Leever (38:34) people are like, I have a headache, what would you do for that? And you're like, do you have like an hour for me to explain to you all of the potential causes of headaches? Because that's really, you know, we're not looking at symptoms on an individual basis, we're looking at the overall pattern of like what is causing that for that individual person? And so the chart really feels very similar to Chinese medicine in that way, in that it gives us...   Michelle (38:43) Yeah, it's true.   Yeah.   Holly Leever (39:03) It's like its whole own diagnostic process, which is really fun to compare with also the Chinese medicine diagnosis too. So I love kind of weaving those two things together too.   Michelle (39:18) I'll be honest, it makes it easier for me to do my job. I can see what's going on. I can see if I need to increase some young herbs, increase the heat in the body. And then I'll see after a while, things shift based on what I do, which is based on what I saw early on. So it's huge because it's such a great tool. So when people come in to see me and they say, I have a couple of months worth of my   Holly Leever (39:27) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (39:46) charting, I'm like so excited. So it gives me a lot to work with.   Holly Leever (39:48) Yes. I mean, working with fertility, I started working with fertility pretty early on in my practice, and I just started really incorporating fertility awareness in the way that I do it now within the past couple of years. And it was like doing it blind before I had as much information as I do now. If you don't have a chart, you don't even know if they're ovulating. So-   Michelle (40:11) Yeah, it's a game changer.   Yeah, I mean, you could do sometimes like a progesterone metabolites, not so much LH, you know, just to make sure to confirm, but, you know, there's definitely like other things and other more expensive kits that you can get, but I mean, this is just gold standard. It's like, it's so great, you know, it's such a great way to look at it. It gives you so much insight, it connects you with your own body and   Holly Leever (40:18) OPKs. Yep, right.   Mm-hmm.   That's it.   Michelle (40:40) I think it's amazing, but I could talk to you for hours, Holly. I mean, this is so interesting. There's so many things that we can obviously talk about, but it's so important for people to learn this and to know that it is something that can actually benefit them. I think some people get really stressed out by it initially. And I say it's the same thing as like meditation. When you sit down to meditate, at first it's uncomfortable or you're starting something new, it's going to be uncomfortable.   Holly Leever (40:58) Hehehe   Michelle (41:07) But if you can kind of get through that discomfort, eventually on the other side, it's gonna give you so much more. It's gonna benefit you in so many ways that you didn't even imagine.   Holly Leever (41:17) and sometimes the overwhelm is because they don't understand it. That's what I found, is that people will be reading into each little peak and valley in the chart, and they're just kind of like, I don't even know what it means. And that's really stressful. And if you... I don't... I mean, I could tell people it within an hour session how to...   Michelle (41:23) Yeah.   Yeah.   Oh yeah, because...   Holly Leever (41:45) actually interpret the BBT and they could really get a lot of, it's just like going to a meditation class. If you learn just actually what is happening and what's normal, that can really help to sort of calm your nervous system about the overwhelm around it.   Michelle (42:03) Yeah. And also knowing that eventually it's going to get easier. It's just, it's like anything. It's like anything new eventually does get easier. So for people who do want to hear your podcast or reach out to you and work with you, how can they find you?   Holly Leever (42:07) Let's move.   Yeah, so I'm very active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram at rosebud underscore wellness. I also have a website rosebudwellness.com. And I do have a free fertility awareness for conception video on my Instagram linked there. Maybe we could also link it in the show notes. I could send it to you. So it's just a 30 minute video kind of going through a little bit more details about what's involved.   So I know that fertility awareness is not for everyone. Not everybody's gonna want to get into this level of detail. So that video is really helpful for people to kind of get a feel for it and see like, does that sound crazy or could I maybe try that? So, yeah.   Michelle (43:05) That's awesome. Well, this is great because people are listening to this. They're probably really curious about it. So it's awesome to have a free resource. So thank you for that. Um, so Holly, thank you so much for coming on. This is so great. I mean, I can talk to you for way um, than we have time, but this is just great information. I'm sure so many people got so much value from this. So thank you for coming on today.   Holly Leever (43:13) Yeah.   My pleasure, thank you so much for having me.