#96 Untangling: How DAOs Work with Daniel Liebau

Welcome to a very special milestone of the Untangling Web3 podcast – our 100th episode! In this celebratory edition, we take a step back to reflect on how far the podcast has come, the incredible evolution of Web3 and emerging tech during this journey, and the community that has grown around us. From humble beginnings with scratchy audio and no video to live events, high-profile guests, and over 175,000 YouTube subscribers, this episode is both a nostalgic trip and an optimistic look forward.Key highlights:Podcast Growth and Milestones: Jack and Alec reflect on the early days of Untangling Web3 and how it grew from a side project into a thriving podcast with a global audience. They discuss significant moments including the first live event, guest highlights like Heather Flannery and King Willonius, and the podcast’s shift into broader tech conversations such as AI and quantum computing. From awkward first episodes to major speaking engagements and reaching 100K+ subscribers, it's been a wild and rewarding ride.Industry Shifts and Emerging Trends: The episode revisits the major changes in the tech space since episode one, with a focus on the rise of AI, the steady evolution of crypto and blockchain, and growing concerns over privacy, data ownership, and social media monopolies. The hosts highlight how these themes have shaped discussions across the last 100 episodes and point to AI misinformation, stablecoins, and decentralized social platforms like BlueSky as key areas of focus moving forward.The Future of the Podcast and Web3: Looking ahead, Alec and Jack share their excitement for the next 100 episodes, promising deeper dives into underexplored tech areas like robotics, drones, and self-sovereign identity. With the podcast now receiving inbound guest requests and growing industry recognition, they plan to continue building community, hosting live events, and pushing the boundaries of what a Web3-focused podcast can cover in an ever-changing tech world.Hitting 100 episodes is a major milestone, but for Alec and Jack, it's just the beginning. As the Web3, blockchain, and tech landscape continue to shift rapidly, Untangling Web3 remains committed to offering insightful, entertaining, and thought-provoking conversations. Whether you've been with them since episode one or just joined, thank you for being part of the journey. Here's to the next hundred—and beyond—as we continue to explore, review, and evolve with the tech shaping our future.--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

This special edition of Untangling Web3 features the first-ever live recording of the show, held in London and focused on the theme of Web3 for Social Good. Guest panelists Sunny Lu (CEO of VeChain) and Pankhuri Bansal (blockchain and AI expert with the UN and LTO Network) explore how decentralized technologies are driving impact in sustainability, social inclusion, and environmental action.Key highlights:Decentralization as a Tool for Inclusion Over 1.4 billion people remain unbanked globally, lacking access to basic financial services. Blockchain enables alternative financial systems through tokenized microloans and digitally verifiable identities. In regions like sub-Saharan Africa, tokenized lending models provide farmers with access to capital without the need for a formal bank account, unlocking economic participation for underserved communities.Green Incentives and Behavioral Change Micro-incentivization using blockchain tokens can change everyday behaviors at scale. Sustainability schemes—from plastic bottle deposit programs to plastic bag levies—prove that small financial nudges lead to measurable behavioral shifts. Web3 enables these incentives to be recorded transparently, scaled globally, and linked to real-world actions through smart contracts and on-chain proof systems.Tokenomics and the Future of ESG Crypto incentives create an auditable and efficient system for environmental, social, and governance (ESG) accountability. When individuals are rewarded for using recycled materials or companies track and tokenize their sustainability impact, ESG becomes measurable, verifiable, and incentivized. Applications like VeBetterDAO are building ecosystems where users earn rewards for provable social good actions—from recycling to reducing emissions.Web3 offers an unprecedented opportunity to coordinate global action at the individual level. From plastic waste collection to climate data verification, blockchain enables transparent and trustless systems that reward citizens for doing good. Rather than relying solely on governments or institutions, Web3 empowers individuals to contribute directly to sustainable outcomes—and be compensated in the process. As regulatory clarity emerges and enterprise interest grows, the alignment of social impact and tokenized value creation will become a powerful force for green transformation.--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

In this episode of Untangling Web3, co-founder of Fluence and host of the DePINed Podcast, Tom Trowbridge, breaks down the evolving world of DePIN—Decentralized Physical Infrastructure Networks. Drawing on his leadership at Fluence and his experience launching Hedera Hashgraph, Trowbridge provides a technical yet accessible overview of how DePIN offers an alternative model to centralized infrastructure, unlocking powerful new design patterns in blockchain-based networks.Key highlights:Definition and Criteria of DePIN: DePIN is defined as a crowdsourced physical infrastructure network delivering services through crypto-incentivized mechanisms. What differentiates DePIN from traditional infrastructure models is that the networks rely on community-owned hardware—whether dashcams, routers, drones, or browser extensions—rather than centralized corporate-owned systems. Participants contribute these resources and receive tokens, creating a more distributed and participatory infrastructure layer.Economic Models and Token Utility: The viability of DePIN depends on token-based crypto-economics that incentivize contribution and participation while allowing network effects to scale without centralized capital expenditure. Without tokens, projects would require upfront funding to bootstrap infrastructure and could not easily reward contributors with upside. Token rewards create both short-term participation incentives and long-term value alignment between users and the growth of the network.Fluence and the Cloudless Internet Fluence, the decentralized computing platform Tom co-founded, addresses the final missing piece in the decentralized internet stack: compute. While Filecoin and Arweave have decentralized storage, Fluence is focused on replacing centralized cloud compute providers like AWS and Azure. Fluence uses enterprise-grade infrastructure to deliver decentralized compute with service-level agreements (SLAs), competitive pricing (up to 70% cheaper than traditional cloud services), and an open architecture that supports dynamic scaling and migration.DePIN represents a fundamental rethinking of infrastructure—from centralized ownership to community-powered networks secured and incentivized by blockchain. From physical deployments like drone-based mapping to compute platforms like Fluence, this emerging paradigm offers the chance to outcompete traditional infrastructure on cost, resilience, and scalability. DePIN is now poised to evolve into one of the most impactful sectors in Web3.Read Tom's DePIN Tokenomics report in full here:https://depined.xyz/report#depin-token-economics-report--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

This week on Untangling Web3, we're joined by artist, comedian, and AI innovator King Willonius to explore how artificial intelligence is reshaping creativity, comedy, music, and storytelling. Known best for his viral AI-generated track "BBL Drizzy," King breaks down the mechanics, ethics, and cultural implications of using AI as a creative collaborator—offering a first-hand look into how creators are using technology to expand the boundaries of art and expression.Key highlights:BBL Drizzy, Kendrick Lamar, and AI in Culture: The viral moment surrounding the Drake and Kendrick Lamar feud was deeply intertwined with AI. King Willonius used Udio to generate "BBL Drizzy," a satirical, soul-inflected track that responded to the online drama. The song’s meteoric rise—created in under 30 minutes—became a cultural flashpoint, blurring the line between parody, artistry, and AI commentary. This moment demonstrated AI’s power to remix and engage with real-time culture, while raising urgent ethical questions about voice cloning and artistic ownership.Ethics, Voice Cloning, and Artist Rights: The accessibility of voice cloning and image generation raises complex issues about consent, ownership, and cultural legacy. When prominent artists like Drake use AI-generated voices of deceased icons like Tupac, it creates a normalization of practices that many consider ethically gray. The absence of clear frameworks invites both innovation and abuse. For creators, the challenge is balancing the freedom to remix with the responsibility to respect identity and provenance.Creative Empowerment vs. Creative Replacement: AI’s primary impact is in lowering barriers to entry and compressing timelines. Instead of needing a studio, a team, and weeks of iteration, a solo artist can now produce music, video, and design in a fraction of the time. While some fear AI will replace creatives, King frames it as a class-leveling force—one that empowers marginalized voices and expands access to professional-grade tools.Artificial intelligence is not just a tool for productivity—it is becoming a medium of cultural expression, satire, and commentary. The future of creativity involves hybrid workflows, where human originality is amplified by synthetic intelligence. Artists who embrace AI without abandoning ethics or intention will be at the forefront of a new era in music, comedy, and culture. Whether remixing internet moments, shaping virtual identities, or training AI agents to rap, creators like King Willonius are rewriting what it means to be an artist in the age of artificial intelligence.Learn more about King Willonius' work here:https://www.kingwillonius.com/--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

In this episode of Untangling Web3, Daniel Liebau, founder of Lightbulb Capital and co-author of a leading academic book on DAOs, explores how decentralized autonomous organizations are redefining governance, collaboration, and organizational design. Drawing on research and real-world examples, this episode examines the opportunities and risks associated with DAOs as scalable, decentralized alternatives to traditional organizational structures.Key highlights:Defining a DAO and Its Core Mechanics: A decentralized autonomous organization is an on-chain entity that coordinates individuals around a shared objective using blockchain-based governance systems. Participation is typically open to anyone holding the DAO's native governance token, which confers the right to vote on proposals. Unlike traditional companies, DAOs rely on distributed consensus rather than centralized leadership, and participation structures are often non-hierarchical.Use Cases Where DAOs Provide Strategic Value: DAOs are especially well-suited to non-profit, community-driven, or public-good initiatives. Examples include grant distribution collectives, award programs, open-source development communities, and sustainability-focused initiatives. These use cases benefit from shared governance, global participation, and token-based incentives that align diverse stakeholders without relying on central entities.Risks and Governance Challenges: The permissionless and decentralized nature of DAOs introduces unique challenges. Accountability risks arise when it is unclear who is responsible for decisions or outcomes. Financial risk increases when DAO treasuries are overly concentrated in their native tokens, making them vulnerable to market volatility. Governance risks include voter apathy, low participation rates, and poorly structured voting mechanisms that fail to align expertise with influence.DAOs offer a fundamentally new model for coordination, one that replaces rigid hierarchies with collective governance, transparency, and programmable incentives. While risks around accountability, governance, and financial stability remain, DAO design continues to evolve in ways that make these organizations more resilient and scalable. As regulatory frameworks mature and infrastructure improves, DAOs have the potential to become core components of both decentralized ecosystems and traditional institutions seeking to embrace openness and adaptability.Learn more about Daniel's work here:https://www.danielliebau.org/--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

This week on Untangling Web3, Dan Hughes, founder of Radix DLT, explores the future of DeFi, scalability, and the barriers to mainstream adoption. With over a decade of experience in blockchain infrastructure, Dan shares insights on what it will take to onboard the next billion users into DeFi while maintaining decentralization and security.Key highlights:The Core Problem in DeFi Adoption: DeFi currently serves a niche audience of crypto-native users, leaving the majority of global finance untouched. The complexity of wallets, private keys, and transaction signing creates friction that prevents mainstream adoption. Without a more intuitive user experience, DeFi remains inaccessible to everyday users who expect seamless financial interactions.User Experience as the Key to Mass Adoption: Traditional banking apps provide a frictionless experience, while DeFi applications still require users to navigate MetaMask, seed phrases, and complex smart contracts. For Web3 finance to reach mass adoption, DeFi interfaces must become as intuitive as mobile banking apps, reducing the cognitive load on users.Scalability and the Infrastructure Challenge: Blockchain networks have struggled with scaling transactions while maintaining security and decentralization. The industry's obsession with incremental improvements—such as tweaking Ethereum’s EVM—has limited true innovation. Instead of patching existing architectures, DeFi needs a fundamental rethink of blockchain infrastructure, with scalability built from the ground up.The Future of DeFi and Real-World Use Cases: The long-term success of DeFi depends on moving beyond speculative trading and meme coins. Real-world asset tokenization, decentralized identity, and programmable financial contracts will be key drivers of sustainable growth. Institutions will play a role, but the industry must focus on building practical financial applications that serve real needs rather than catering solely to speculation.DeFi is at a crossroads where it must evolve beyond speculation and deliver tangible financial products that rival traditional finance in usability and efficiency. User experience, security, and scalability must be prioritized to make DeFi truly accessible to billions of people. The next five years will determine whether DeFi remains a niche financial experiment or transforms into a foundational component of the global economy.--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

This week on Untangling Web3, Kyle Weiss and Shady El Damaty join us from ETH Denver to explore the future of digital identity, decentralized personhood, and blockchain-based verification systems. As the digital landscape evolves, ensuring secure, verifiable, and privacy-preserving digital identities has become a critical challenge. This conversation delves into how Web3 is reshaping identity management and what it means for online trust, governance, and digital interactions.Key highlights:Decentralized Digital Identity in Web3: Traditional identity systems rely on centralized institutions that store and manage personal data, creating vulnerabilities in security and privacy. Decentralized identity systems use blockchain and cryptographic proofs to enable individuals to control their own identity without relying on third parties. This approach enhances security and reduces risks related to data breaches and identity theft.Proof of Personhood and Sybil Resistance: Online communities and governance systems require methods to distinguish real human users from bots or duplicate accounts. Proof of personhood mechanisms verify that an identity belongs to a unique human, ensuring fair participation in airdrop distributions, decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs), and financial transactions. These verification methods prevent Sybil attacks, where single entities create multiple fake accounts to manipulate systems.AI and Identity in a Web3 World: As artificial intelligence and AI agents become more prevalent, the ability to distinguish between human and machine interactions is crucial. Decentralized identity solutions ensure that human participants can verify their authenticity while interacting with AI-driven systems, maintaining transparency and trust in financial transactions, governance, and digital communities.Decentralized digital identity is shaping the future of online trust, governance, and security in Web3. By enabling users to own and control their identity, blockchain-based identity solutions enhance privacy, prevent fraud, and create fairer digital ecosystems. As digital interactions become more automated, the ability to verify real humans in a decentralized, privacy-preserving way will be a cornerstone of the next evolution of the internet.Learn more about Kyle and Shady's work here:Holonym: https://human.tech/Human Passport: https://passport.human.tech/--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

This week on Untangling Web3, Oleg Fomenko, co-founder of Sweat Economy, breaks down the concept of the movement economy—a system where physical activity is tokenized to create financial and social value. Sweat Economy leverages Web3 incentives to encourage people to be more active, transforming movement into a digital asset with real-world applications.Key highlights:The Movement Economy as a Trillion-Dollar Market: Physical activity generates economic value for individuals, businesses, and governments. Healthier populations reduce medical costs, increase productivity, and create long-term financial benefits. Tokenizing movement enables individuals to capture the value of their own activity rather than allowing corporations or governments to benefit from it exclusively.Tokenizing Physical Activity: Steps and movement generate Sweat, a token that represents the financial worth of physical activity. The more a person moves, the more Sweat they earn. Unlike speculative tokens, Sweat has intrinsic value because it is backed by human effort and real-world utility, creating an asset that cannot exist without user participation.Economic Incentives for Governments and Employers: Governments and healthcare systems benefit from a healthier population, reducing costs related to obesity and chronic illness. Employers gain more productive, engaged, and active employees by integrating Sweat Economy into workplace wellness programs. Movement incentives create a sustainable model where various stakeholders contribute to and benefit from a more active society.AI-Powered Personalization in Web3 Health: Artificial intelligence enhances the movement economy by creating personalized health incentives. AI agents analyze individual fitness habits and provide tailored rewards, optimizing behavior change through instant gratification. Unlike traditional wellness programs, AI and blockchain combine to make incentives scalable, transparent, and verifiable.Sweat Economy redefines how physical activity is valued, turning movement into a digital currency that fuels a decentralized health and wellness ecosystem. By leveraging blockchain, tokenized incentives, and AI-driven personalization, Sweat Economy aims to create a more physically active, financially empowered, and healthier society. The future of the movement economy lies in integrating Web3 incentives with real-world applications, bridging the gap between personal health and financial opportunity.--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

In this episode of Untangling Web3, brand strategist and Web3 expert Diego Borgo explores the challenges and opportunities of branding in the decentralized space. With extensive experience advising global brands like Adidas, Prada, Mastercard, and Porsche, Diego shares insights into the evolving perception of Web3 and how brands can adapt to the changing digital landscape.Key highlights:The Branding Problem in Web3: The term "Web3" carries a branding challenge due to its association with scams, speculative trading, and complex technology. Many mainstream brands and consumers perceive it as a high-risk space, making it difficult for businesses to position themselves within the industry.Reframing the Narrative for Mass Adoption: For Web3 to achieve widespread adoption, brands need to shift their messaging away from technical jargon like "decentralization" and "zero-knowledge proofs" and instead focus on tangible benefits. Successful branding strategies must highlight real-world applications, ease of use, and how blockchain technology improves customer experience.Building Trust and Utility in Web3: Trust remains a major barrier for mainstream adoption. Many companies struggle to communicate the practical value of blockchain beyond speculation and trading. To overcome this, brands must emphasize transparency, security, and user-centric design to attract and retain non-crypto-native users.AI and Web3 as Complementary Forces: The rise of AI presents both a challenge and an opportunity for Web3. AI-powered automation is simplifying complex blockchain interactions, reducing the need for technical knowledge. In the future, AI agents could act as intermediaries between users and decentralized systems, removing friction and making Web3 more accessible.Web3 branding needs a fundamental shift from its current perception of being technical, speculative, and difficult to understand. To reach mainstream audiences, companies must prioritize trust, user experience, and clear messaging that resonates with non-technical consumers. The convergence of AI and Web3 offers a promising path forward, where automation and intelligent systems make decentralized applications more accessible and integrated into everyday life.--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.

In this episode of Untangling Web3, futurist and AI expert Dan Södergren joins the conversation to explore how artificial intelligence and Web3 technologies are transforming the future of work.With a background in digital transformation and consumer rights, Dan explains why the rise of AI is triggering what he calls the Fifth Industrial Revolution and what it means for individuals, businesses, and society.Key highlights:The Fifth Industrial Revolution and Work Transformation: AI is fundamentally changing work structures, just as previous industrial revolutions redefined labor. Automation is shifting the balance of power, enabling individuals to have supercharged productivity through AI agents and automation tools. Unlike past technological shifts, this transformation allows individuals—not just large corporations—to own the means of production.AI Agents and Workplace Automation: The emergence of AI agents capable of automating entire workflows is reducing the need for repetitive human tasks. Instead of simple tools like ChatGPT providing single responses, autonomous AI assistants are now able to act on instructions, execute tasks independently, and integrate with various business systems. This shift is leading to radical flexibility in workplaces and the potential for decentralized, AI-driven companies.The Role of Open-Source AI in Decentralization: The future of AI is moving towards open-source models and small language models (SLMs) rather than relying on centralized proprietary systems. This shift allows businesses and individuals to run their own AI models locally, maintaining data privacy while customizing AI to their specific needs. As AI costs drop, running private AI models for personal and business use is becoming an accessible reality.AI is no longer a futuristic concept; it is an immediate and disruptive force in the workplace. The shift towards AI-powered automation and decentralized digital workspaces will require individuals and organizations to rethink productivity, employment structures, and business strategies.Embracing AI while maintaining ethical and responsible use will define success in the evolving digital economy. The companies and individuals that adopt AI intelligently will lead the charge in the Fifth Industrial Revolution.Learn more about how to use AI for Marketing with Dan's course here:www.aimarketingcourse.co.uk--This episode is sponsored by the VeChain foundation. Learn more about VeBetterDAO here:https://vebetterdao.org/--Learn more about Web3 at:https://untanglingweb3.com/--Untangling Web3 is brought to you by hosts Jack Davies and Alec Burns, with music by Daniel Paigge. Got a question or topic suggestion? Send us an email at [email protected] what you're hearing? Show your support by becoming a subscriber and don't forget to leave us a stellar review.The views we express here are our own, and do not represent the views of our employers. Nothing discussed or stated in the show should be considered advice.