EP 145: Leading Through Outrage: Why Moral Imagination Matters with Dr. Kurt Gray

How do we stay awake and aware without constantly being outraged? Or, perhaps even worse, normalizing what should be utterly unacceptable?Staying human is hard in this environment. So many leaders are trying to hold onto their boundaries and values against pressure to act contrary to them, to stay compassionate and curious when so many forces benefit from and encourage our outrage.Anger, rage, and outrage are powerful and can be useful emotions. But when we live from a perpetual state of outrage, we lose access to the self-leadership and adaptive skills that help us lead well, and eventually it takes us out.Today’s guest is here to help us understand what outrage really is, why it’s so potent right now, how it becomes weaponized, and how we can use it without losing ourselves.Kurt Gray is a social psychologist who studies our moral minds and how best to bridge political divides. Gray received his PhD from Harvard University, and now directs the Deepest Beliefs Lab at The Ohio State University. He also leads the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding, which explores new ways to reduce polarization, and is a Field Builder in the New Pluralists, which seeks to build a more pluralistic America.Gray’s work on morality, politics, religion, creativity, and AI has been widely discussed in the media, including the New York Times, the Economist, Scientific American, Wired, and Hidden Brain. He is the co-author of the book The Mind Club: Who Thinks, What Feels and Why it Matters, and the author of Outraged: Why We Fight about Morality and Politics. Listen to the full episode to hear:How Kurt’s childhood experiences with his stepmother’s conservative, evangelical family have informed his thinking about how we can connect despite differencesHow our human wiring for threat detection causes “harm creep,” even while many of us are safer than everHow our outrage is connected to our perceptions of our risk and vulnerabilityHow our moral imagination helps us maintain our empathy and humanity without losing sight of our values and boundariesWhy we need to learn to recognize destruction narratives and how they’re being used to sow divisionWhy leading with facts and statistics fails in moral and political arguments and how we can more effectively begin to bridge the gapsWhy we need to leave room for uncertainty and humility in our convictionsLearn more about Kurt Gray, PhD:WebsiteConnect on LinkedInMoral Understanding NewsletterOutraged: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common GroundThe Mind Club: Who Thinks, What Feels, and Why it MattersLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience, Brené BrownRage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's Anger, Soraya ChemalyEP 96: Rage to Action: The Leading Power of Women’s Anger with Soraya ChemalyBrené Brown on the State of Leadership in America Today | On with Kara SwisherEP 52: Charlie Gilkey: Leading With What Matters MostDaryl DavisSaja Boys - "Your Idol"Stranger Things Bad ThoughtsOrdinary People Change the World Series, Brad Meltzer and Christopher Eliopoulos

Every day, we’re flooded with information–headlines, opinions, advice, noise. And beneath that deluge of input, we carry stories that tell us how we stay safe and what asking questions will cost us.Certainty too often feels like safety. So we rush to respond before we understand and defend before we discern. We don’t pause to reflect or to question the loudest voices in the room–proverbial or otherwise.But certainty at the expense of discernment can damage our connections to each other and to ourselves. Leadership that builds connection and trust for the long term requires us to cultivate the courage to ask questions and follow the answers, even when it’s uncomfortable. When we catch an old story running the show and stay curious instead of certain, we can metabolize what’s driving reactivity and protection. It’s how we stay open, grounded, and self-led in a world that rewards reactivity.My guest in this conversation refers to this practice as faithful skepticism: asking hard questions without abandoning hope. When I read his moving essay, “Groomed by the Church: How The Clash Saved My Soul,” I knew I had to invite him here to discuss the importance of refining our discernment and cultivating skepticism as a vital tool for effective leadership. And how music serves as a powerful trailhead–both as a cultural lightning rod and as a catalyst for self-discovery. David Adey is a multimedia artist based in San Diego, CA. His work has been exhibited at The Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego, Orange County Museum of Art, Crystal Bridges Museum, Minneapolis Institute of Art, Frist Center for The Visual Arts, Oceanside Museum of Art, Cranbrook Art Museum, and venues nationally and internationally. His work has been featured in publications including Art in America, LA Weekly, The Huffington Post, Wired Magazine, Thisiscolossal, and PBS. He received his MFA in sculpture from Cranbrook Academy of Art. Adey is a professor of art and design at Point Loma Nazarene University.Listen to the full episode to hear:How an outing to see a Black Sabbath cover band inspired David’s essayHow the parallels of the Satanic Panic of his youth and our current cultural moment took the essay from journal entry to published workWhy David believes in the power of being offensive with a purposeHow the church’s narrow focus on spiritual dangers came at a cost to real life safetyHow David’s teenaged experiences inform how he now leads his students and parents his childrenThe impact of his mother’s support when he both wanted to reject his musical loves and then reconnect with themWhy faithful skepticism is a powerful antidote for certainty and cynicismLearn more about David Adey:WebsiteInstagram: @davidadey.studioLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Groomed By the Church: How The Clash Saved My Soul | The RumpusSatanic panicJeff KoonsThe Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness, Jonathan HaidtNorth Country, Gillian Welch and David RawlingsLootStar WarsRichard RohrThich Nhat Hanh

Leaders carry the weight of more than their current roles.We receive messages from the generations before us about our worth, work, and belonging that shape how we show up–for better or worse. This is just as true in our working lives as it is in our families.If we want to change the narratives, we have to become aware of the legacy burdens–personal, familial, cultural, systemic–that have been passed down to us and choose to transform those burdens into opportunities for healing, growth, and leadership that alters the course of our teams and organizations for the better.When we can name what we’ve absorbed–what doesn’t belong to our personal story but to those who came before us–we create space for healing and release. And from that place, we can hold onto our hope, lead with integrity, and stay grounded in what truly matters.My guest today is a dear colleague and friend who is here to talk with me about the impact of generational messaging on our leadership, and how we can begin to dismantle these narratives for ourselves and in our organizations.Crystal R. Jones is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Lead IFS-I Trainer who passionately spreads the healing essence of the IFS model worldwide. Known for her embodied compassion, relatability, and heart-led approach to her work, Crystal has personally experienced the transformative power of the IFS model in her own healing journey. This profound experience fuels Crystal’s dedication to creating safe spaces for marginalized communities, particularly Black women and women of color, to feel connected, seen, heard, and valued as they embark on their healing journeys individually and collectively. Crystal is fervently committed to teaching the model in a way that illuminates and speaks to BIPOC communities, ensuring its adaptability, accessibility, and relevance to diverse populations.Listen to the full episode to hear:How legacy burdens are passed through families and cultures as messages of survivalHow Crystal reckons with cultural burdens by choosing to show up imperfectly and with vulnerabilitySelf-reflection questions to help you identify and consider legacy burdensHow belonging and shame show up when working with legacy burdensHow Crystal is shifting workplace narratives for her teams and in her trainingsLearn more about Crystal Jones:Life Source Counseling CenterLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 139: Bad Bosses Aren’t Born, They’re Made: Breaking Toxic Leadership Cycles with Mita MallickEP 102: Toxic Leadership: The True Cost of Workplace Trauma with Mita MallickBlack Liturgies: Prayers, Poems, and Meditations for Staying Human, Cole Arthur Riley Alex IsleyOrange Is the New Black

What does it mean to be good?It’s a little word that carries a lot of weight for many of us. Be a good girl. Be a good friend. Be a good leader. Do good.Good can sound like praise, but become a cage of expectations and shoulds, a performance that chips away at our authenticity. Good is no longer something we are, but is how others see us. It leads us to people please and keep the peace at all costs. And that’s especially true for women.All too often, when women are in leadership, their goodness is measured by how they make others feel–good, comfortable, understood. All of that matters. But when the measure of leadership becomes how comfortable other people feel around us, we lose something essential.We perform and manage emotions instead of building trust and respect. We seek to be liked and to fit in at the cost of real integrity and effectiveness. And likability is oh-so fleeting.Respect, integrity, and true belonging take time and discomfort to build, but they last.My guest today has written beautifully and bravely about the cost of being good, the truth of belonging, and the courage it takes to lead ourselves and others through discomfort.Elise Loehnen is the New York Times bestselling author of On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to be Good and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread, where she interviews cultural luminaries about the big questions of today, including people like Joy Harjo, John and Julie Gottman, Dr. Gabor Maté, and Esther Perel. In addition to On Our Best Behavior, she is the author of a corresponding workbook—Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness—with coach Courtney Smith (July 2025), and the co-author of True & False Magic, with legendary psychiatrist Phil Stutz. Elise lives in Los Angeles with her husband, Rob, and their sons, Max and Sam.Listen to the full episode to hear:How Elise traced the cultural roots of the “good woman” back to early Christianity and the many additions, erasures, and mistranslations of Biblical storiesWhy we need to pay attention to our envy and how it shows up in relation to other womenHow envy, pride, and greed fuel each other and the ways we stay small and tear other women downHow social media has heightened the risk of reputational damage and changed how women work and lead, for better and worseWhy we latch onto ideas of goodness and purity more deeply in times of greater uncertaintyHow current narratives about the “natural” order are ahistorical manipulations that limit what we believe is possibleLearn more about Elise Loehnen:WebsitePulling the Thread on SubstackInstagram: @eliseloehnenOn Our Best Behavior: The Price Women Pay to Be GoodChoosing Wholeness Over Goodness: A Process for Reclaiming Your Full SelfTrue and False Magic: A Tools WorkbookLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone, Brené BrownEP 123: Befriending Your Nervous System: Building Capacity for Regulation with Deb DanaThe Intrinsic Order that Emerges from Within Chaos (Elinor Dickson, PhD)Dancing in the Flames: The Dark Goddess in the Transformation of Consciousness, Elinor Dickson and Marion Woodman EP 88: Right-Use-of-Power: Navigating Leadership Dynamics with Dr. Cedar BarstowEP 125: Power, Regulation, and Leadership: Connecting to Your Personal Power with Dr. Amanda AguileraThe Reprioritization of Relationship (Lori Gottlieb)Maybe You Should Talk To Someone: A Therapist, HER Therapist, and Our Lives Revealed, Lori GottliebLessons from Hollywood’s Most Powerful Woman—And How They Can Help You (with Donna Langley) | Aspire with Emma GredeAnswer to Job, Carl JungAion: Researches Into the Phenomenology of the Self, Carl JungThe Science of Magic: How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality, Dean Radin PhDMistakes Were Made (but Not By Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, Carol Tavris and Elliot AronsonSigur Rós - YouTubeJónsi - YouTubeLove IslandThe Gilded AgeMaidenStutz

We live in an age where truth twists into confusion, opinion drowns out data, and it’s increasingly difficult to figure out whose expertise we can trust.Where did our mistrust in expertise come from? Its roots stretch back to deliberate misinformation campaigns beginning in the 1950s spread by the likes of Big Tobacco, Big Oil, and conservative church movements. Then social media poured gasoline on the fire, accelerating the spread of misinformation and making sowing division highly profitable.Misinformation campaigns take advantage of our brains’ natural tendency to protect the familiar and mistrust outgroups. And they capitalize on the very real betrayals people have experienced at the hands of corporations, governments, schools, and healthcare systems.Our challenge now isn’t just knowing the facts, it’s interrogating our own beliefs, asking where our evidence comes from, and resisting the pull of certainty. As leaders, we need to discern who we give our attention to, practice critical thinking, resist manufactured controversy, and platform voices committed to both truth and connection.Today’s guest is a neuroscientist and author of Why Brains Need Friends, who works to make science accessible, relational, and rooted in respect. He doesn’t focus on winning arguments or shaming people into submission. He focuses on bridging divides, building trust, and reminding us that our brains–and our lives–are wired for connection.Ben Rein, PhD is an award-winning neuroscientist and science communicator. He serves as the Chief Science Officer of the Mind Science Foundation, an Adjunct Lecturer at Stanford University, and a Clinical Assistant Professor at SUNY Buffalo. He has published over 20 peer-reviewed papers on the neuroscience of social behavior, and is the author of Why Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social Connection. In addition, Rein educates an audience of more than 1 million social media followers and has been featured on outlets including Entertainment Tonight, Good Morning America and StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He has received awards for his science communication from the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine, the Society for Neuroscience, and elsewhere.Listen to the full episode to hear:How an especially vivid nightmare redirected Ben’s path to neuroscienceWhy the division and isolation of modern life is so bad for our brains and overall healthHow engaging with strangers isn’t as awkward as we often think it is, and why we should do it moreHow small social interactions build our sense of belonging, community, and wellbeingWhy we need to recognize and then override our gut reactions to those we perceive as belonging to outgroupsHow social media sound bites vastly oversimplify the complex and unknown systems in our brainsWhy Ben’s primary mission to to help people understand the value of looking to data and evidence rather than personalities and experiencesWhy we all have to get better at fact-checking and questioning why we’re ready to believe somethingLearn more about Dr. Ben Rein:WebsiteInstagram: @dr.benreinWhy Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social ConnectionLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Golden Holocaust: Origins of the Cigarette Catastrophe and the Case for Abolition, Robert N Proctor"Assessing ExxonMobil’s climate change communications (1977–2014),” Geoffrey Supran and Naomi Oreskes, 2017 Environmental Research Letters 12 084019The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design, Ronald L. Numbers"Misinformation and Its Correction Continued Influence and Successful Debiasing,” Stephan Lewandowsky et al., 2012 Psychological Science in the Public Interest, 13(3)The Logic of Scientific Discovery, Karl PopperSciSpaceSapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Yuval Noah HarariDune, Frank HerbertThe Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York, Deborah BlumTory Lanez - Gangland x Fargentina 4EVR (feat. Wolfgang Peterson & Kai)Hard Knocks: Training CampCourage the Cowardly Dog

Have you ever thought of being an amateur as a good thing?Many of us learned from an early age that our worth was tied to excelling at what we do and turning it into something productive. And many leaders carry the belief that they must be certain, skilled, and polished at all times.But what if the exact opposite were true?When we allow ourselves to dabble, to be amateurs, to be just okay at things, our brains literally become more adaptable and our nervous systems learn to stay grounded in the midst of risk, uncertainty, and vulnerability. Just as importantly, leaders who model dabbling create spaces where families, teams, and communities are safe to embrace curiosity and exploration. Resilient leadership requires us to meet high-stakes challenges with adaptability, grounded presence, and compassion. Intentional amateurship prepares us for life’s curveballs by building those skills in low-stakes settings.Today’s guest returns to make the case for being a dabbler as a practice of freedom, resilience, and leadership. She shows us how choosing to play, experiment, and simply try expands our capacity for presence and courage.Karen Walrond is an award-winning author, speaker, and leadership coach on a mission to create a kindness revolution. Her books encourage readers to identify their values and inner light and use them to make the world brighter for others.  Audiences around the world have left her keynotes inspired with hope and a renewed determination to serve.  And her one-on-one leadership coaching sessions, workshops and retreats, rooted in the tenets of positive psychology coaching, have helped hundreds of clients unearth their gifts and past triumphs to lead with confidence, compassion and kindness.Karen and her family split their time between Houston, Texas, USA and Bath, Somerset, UK.Listen to the full episode to hear:The restorative power of doing something purely for the love of itHow following her curiosity has shaped Karen’s career and how she protects her amateur pursuitsHow Karen’s dabbling adventures tapped into her seven attributes of intentional amateurismHow intentional amateurship helps embed self-care, self-compassion, and self-transcendence into our livesHow practicing being an amateur helps us bring curiosity, compassion, and resilience to our leadershipWhy the humbling experiences of dabbling are a vital reminder for leaders that they’re in it alongside their teamsLearn more about Karen Walrond:WebsiteInstagram: @heychookooloonksFacebook: @chookooloonksConnect on LinkedInThe Make Light Journal on SubstackIn Defense of Dabbling: The Brilliance of Being a Total AmateurRadiant Rebellion: Reclaim Aging, Practice Joy, and Raise a Little HellThe Lightmaker's Manifesto: How to Work for Change Without Losing Your JoyThe Beauty of Different: Observations of a Confident MisfitLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Cherished Belonging: The Healing Power of Love in Divided Times, Gregory BoyleTattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion, Gregory BoyleGeorge Michael, Mary J. Blige - AsConclaveHomeboy Industries

We’ve all had bad bosses.We might have even been one. At the very least, we’ve probably let people down who counted on us.We all carry burdens from our past that show up in how we lead. And we’re all confronting systems that foster toxic workplace cultures where overwork and blurred boundaries are the norm, spaces that don’t feel safe or generative, and where there is little to no accountability.The question we face is simple, but urgent: How do we want to lead?Our leadership can reinforce toxic systems and norms. Or we can learn to recognize our own burdens and do the work to become more aware, adaptable, and flexible. We can create spaces where people feel seen, heard, and valued, even when systems feel unstable or unfair.Because leading is about deciding, in every moment, whether we respond from our burdens or from our values. And my guest today helps us reflect on those choices and decide how we want to lead through her own lived experiences with bad bosses. Mita Mallick is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author who is on a mission to fix what’s broken in our workplaces. She’s a corporate change maker with a track record of transforming businesses and has had an extensive career as a marketing and human resources executive. Mallick is a highly sought-after speaker who has advised Fortune 500 companies and start-ups alike. She is a LinkedIn Top Voice and was named to the Thinkers 50 Radar List. She’s a contributor to Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Adweek, and Entrepreneur. Mallick has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Time Magazine, Forbes, Axios, Essence, Cosmopolitan Magazine and Business Insider.Listen to the full episode to hear:Three scenarios where leaders commonly shift into being bad bossesKey reasons why we tolerate bad bosses and what we can do to shift the cultureWhy Mita’s 13 archetypal bad bosses persist in our workplacesWhy leaders have to invest time and connection in their team members if they want to retain themWhy another executive coaching program will not fix a truly bad bossThe number one skill leaders can focus on to become a better bossWhy corporate America needs more humility and vulnerabilityLearn more about Mita Mallick:WebsiteConnect on LinkedInReimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your WorkplaceThe Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad BossesLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 102: Toxic Leadership: The True Cost of Workplace Trauma with Mita MallickGive and Take: A Revolutionary Approach to Success, Adam GrantThe Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth, Amy C EdmondsonThe Normalization Of Corruption In Organizations, Blake E. Ashforth and Vikas AnandManaging to be ethical: Debunking five business ethics myths, Linda Klebe Treviño and Michael E. BrownExamining the Link Between Ethical Leadership and Employee Misconduct: The Mediating Role of Ethical Climate, David M. Mayer, Maribeth Kuenzi, Rebecca L. GreenbaumThe Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma, Bessel van der Kolk M.D.The Pocket Guide to the Polyvagal Theory: The Transformative Power of Feeling Safe, Stephen W. PorgesPrimal Leadership: Unleashing the Power of Emotional Intelligence, Prof Daniel Goleman PH D, Richard E Boyatzis, and Annie McKeePsychological Conditions of Personal Engagement and Disengagement at Work, William A. KahnEmotional Intelligence: Theory, Findings, and Implications, John D. Mayer, Peter Salovey, David R. CarusoWorking with Emotional Intelligence, Daniel GolemanThe 5Ds of Bystander Intervention - Right To BeEP 52: Charlie Gilkey: Leading With What Matters MostEP 85: Team Habits: Redefining Workplace Dynamics with Charlie GilkeyBig Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear, Elizabeth GilbertThe Anxious Achiever: Turn Your Biggest Fears Into Your Leadership Superpower, Morra Aarons-MeleSia - UnstoppableThe SopranosBreaking BadFresh Off the BoatThe Fresh Prince of Bel Air

How we care for ourselves is inextricably connected to how we lead.In a culture where we moralize health and sell wellness as a symbol of worth, where we’re obsessed with productivity and optimization, our relationships with food and our bodies go beyond personal struggles.They shape how we lead, how we show up for others, and how we define success. When leaders model extreme routines, restrictive regimens, or performance-based wellness, they may unintentionally perpetuate shame and comparison–even if they intend to inspire or be helpful.This isn’t a dismissal of health. Caring for our bodies, feeding ourselves well, and seeking movement that feels good and helps our bodies be strong are powerful acts of self-respect. But when an obsession with performance and purity–whether through hustle culture or “clean” living–erodes our self-trust and amplifies our inner critics, it becomes a leadership issue.Today’s guest is an eating disorder specialist who understands how shame, perfectionism, and chronic striving get tangled up in how we feed and care for ourselves, and how we show up in the world. Unburdening our relationship with food and body isn’t just about health; it’s a powerful leadership move.As a clinical psychologist, Dr. Jeanne Catanzaro has specialized in treating eating issues and trauma for close to 30 years. She trained in psychodynamic psychotherapy, Somatic Experiencing and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) before discovering the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model. Dr. Catanzaro served as the director of a day treatment program for eating disorders for two years and is currently the Vice President of the Internal Family Systems Institute. She is the author of the book, Unburdened Eating: Healing Your Relationships with Food and Your Body Using an Internal Family Systems Approach.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why unburdening our relationship with food and body is a continual process, not a three-step planHow to approach your motivations for how you eat and exercise with curiosity and compassionHow diet culture isn’t just about weight, but reflects wider cultural and systemic beliefs about bodies, health, beauty, and worthHow value judgments about how we and others eat protect us from vulnerability and reinforce hierarchiesWhy it’s impossible to fixate on your own body without your self-judgment rubbing off onto othersCommon wellness traps that can feed our inner managers and protectors at the expense of our core self-knowledgeLearn more about Dr. Jeanne Catanzaro:WebsiteUnburdened Eating: Healing Your Relationships with Food and Your Body Using an Internal Family Systems ApproachLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Health Food Junkies Orthorexia Nervosa: Overcoming the Obsession with Healthful Eating, Steven Bratman, David KnightHealth At Every Size: The Surprising Truth About Your Weight, Lindo BaconHealth at Every Size® (HAES®) Principles – ASDAHSelf-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, Dr. Kristin NeffJessica WilsonSonya Renee TaylorSabrina StringsDa'Shaun HarrisonJessica KnurickEvelyn TriboleWhy Can’t Americans Sleep? - Jennifer Senior, The AtlanticOriginal Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again, Jake Tapper, Alex ThompsonCeleste, Pete KuzmaLincoln's DilemmaThe Great British Baking ShowThe Breakfast ClubThe Buggles - Video Killed The Radio Star

What does it take to lead when your story becomes the story, and the stakes are survival and justice?When you’ve experienced relational trauma or institutional betrayal, as Judith Herman wrote in Trauma and Recovery, “The ordinary response to atrocities is to banish them from consciousness.” But silence protects systems, not survivors.When we do speak up, at best we’re often told to move on, and at worst we might face violent pushback. The stress and fear from the blowback can all too easily silence us and chip away at our integrity and adaptability if we don’t do the important work to address the toll it takes.But when we give ourselves permission to feel the overwhelm, and still take one step forward, we shift from silence into action. Sometimes that step is public and loud. Sometimes it's private and steady. All of it counts. There is no one right way to advocate for change.My guest today did more than just share her story; she used it to create meaningful change in her home state of Texas. In this conversation, we discuss what it means to bear the weight of your trauma while advocating for others, the emotional toll of being a public face for change, and what it looks like to keep showing up, even when the system makes it difficult.Summer Willis is an endurance athlete, advocate, and mother of two who ran 29 marathons in a year to raise awareness for sexual assault survivors. She is the namesake of the Summer Willis Act, landmark consent legislation passed in Texas. Through storytelling, extreme challenges, and her nonprofit Strength Through Strides, she empowers others to turn pain into purpose.Content note: discussion of sexual assaultListen to the full episode to hear:The legal loophole in Texas law that ignited Summer’s drive to turn her worst experience into tangible change for millions of survivorsHow sharing her story and raising awareness and support for the law connected Summer to a wide community of survivors and allies when she was feeling isolatedWhy she decided to run 29 marathons before her 30th birthday while sharing her story, and how that challenge evolved into legislative advocacyHow being an endurance athlete helped Summer through legislative challenges and setbacks to get the Summer Willis Act passedHow Summer is bringing in lightness to her life after sharing her story over and over while trying to pass the billWhy taking the first step and learning along the way are crucial to shaping changeLearn more about Summer Willis:WebsiteStrength Through StridesInstagram: @likesummerwillisLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence–From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror, Judith Lewis Herman MDDr. Dan SiegelTruth and Repair: How Trauma Survivors Envision Justice, Judith Lewis Herman MDCarol GilliganEP 90: Engaged and Consistent Leadership: with Moms Demand Action Founder, Shannon WattsMoms Demand ActionRAINNNoMore.orgJoyful Heart FoundationHisko HulsingChanel MillerThe Wedding People, Alison EspachTaylor Swift - right where you left mePrime MinisterCobain: Montage of Heck

What do you care about these days? Caring is the currency of leadership, but here’s the paradox: when we care too much about too many things, we can lose sight of the things that truly matter. So the question is: How do you direct your energy toward what you value, without becoming overwhelmed by the sheer volume of things you could care about? The most effective leaders are those who can connect deeply with their teams, foster trust, and create a sense of safety and belonging. They lead with empathy, not just strategy.But perfectionism and overfunctioning can lead us to feel like we need to be everything to everyone, at the expense of our well-being and, ultimately, the quality of our leadership.For many of us, the path to effective leadership begins with finding your enough. When you shift your lens to honoring your enough, you stay connected to your values and to the people and causes that matter most to you, without tipping into exhaustion.My guest today offers a model of what it’s like to care deeply without losing yourself in the process, and of finding joy and community along the way. Ashlee Piper is a sustainability expert, commentator, and speaker whose work has been widely featured on television and in print media. She is the author of Give a Sh*t: Do Good. Live Better. Save the Planet. and No New Things: A Radically Simple 30-Day Guide to Saving Money, the Planet, and Your Sanity.Piper has spoken at the United Nations,  SXSW, and has a popular TED talk. She is the creator of the #NoNewThings Challenge, for which she received a 2022 Silver Stevie Award for Female Innovator of the Year, and is a professor of sustainability marketing. She holds a BA from Brown University and a master’s degree from the University of Oxford. She lives in Chicago in a home that’s 98 percent secondhand and can often be found singing Seal’s “Kiss from a Rose” at any not-so-fine karaoke establishment.Listen to the full episode to hear:How #NoNewThings grew from a personal 30-day goal to attracting thousands of participants and becoming a bookHow taking a break from consumption helped Ashlee refocus on the values and relationships that matter mostHow marketers game our mental and physical states to sell us things, and a simple way to bring awareness to our own consumption patternsWhy #NoNewThings emphasizes intentionality with purchases over strictly not spendingWhy “sustainable” is the new “natural” and tips for making more informed choicesHow recognizing our “enough” makes space for building community, getting involved, and living our valuesLearn more about Ashlee Piper:WebsiteInstagram: @ashleepiperSubstack: The Ethical EditGive a Sh*t: Do Good. Live Better. Save the Planet.No New Things: A Radically Simple 30-Day Guide to Saving Money, the Planet, and Your SanityLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ, Daniel GolemanInterpersonal Neurobiology - Dr. Dan SiegelEP 02: How Self-Leadership Saves You From The Relentless Drive To Succeed with Dr. Richard SchwartzEP 72: Identifying and Addressing the Burdens of Individualism with Deran Young & Dick SchwartzEP 131: Leadership, Accountability, and the Self: A Special Anniversary Conversation with IFS Founder Richard SchwartzWhy 'Underconsumption' is a wild term - by Ashlee PiperGrandma Gatewood's Walk: The Inspiring Story of the Woman Who Saved the Appalachian Trail, Ben MontgomeryUsher - Hey Daddy (Daddy's Home)Temptation IslandOut of This WorldSmall Wonder