It's in the Code ep 184: “A Crappy Sermon?”

In this episode of the Straight White American Jesus Sunday Interview, host Leah Payne speaks with award-winning journalist and historian Caleb Gayle about his acclaimed book Black Moses: A Saga of Ambition and the Fight for a Black State. Caleb Gayle is an award-winning journalist and professor at Northeastern University. He is the author of We Refuse to Forget: A True Story of Black Creeks, American Identity, and Power and a contributing writer at The New York Times Magazine. His work has also appeared in The Atlantic, TIME, The Guardian, Guernica, The New Republic, and The Boston Globe. Longlisted for the National Book Award for Nonfiction, named one of The Washington Post’s Best Nonfiction Books of the Year, and selected as a New York Times Editors’ Choice, Black Moses tells the remarkable story of Edward McCabe, a Black political leader who nearly succeeded in founding a Black-governed state in the Oklahoma Territory at the turn of the twentieth century. Together, Payne and Gayle explore McCabe’s ambitious political vision, the racial politics of the American West, and the broader historical context of Reconstruction, westward expansion, and Indigenous displacement. The conversation also reflects on how forgotten stories like McCabe’s challenge familiar narratives about American democracy, race, and political imagination. In this episode: The cinematic structure of Black Moses and how Gayle and his editor shaped the narrative Who Edward McCabe was and why his story has largely disappeared from mainstream American history McCabe’s audacious plan to create a Black state in the Oklahoma Territory The Reconstruction-era search for Black self-determination and how McCabe’s vision differed from projects in Liberia or Haiti The American West as a site of competing dreams—and conflicts—among Black settlers, white settlers, and Indigenous nations McCabe’s political strategy: organizing, coalition building, and attracting Black migration to Oklahoma Why Oklahoma ultimately aligned itself with Jim Crow politics during statehood The unfinished project of American democracy and the importance of political imagination Black Moses: A Saga of Ambition and the Fight for a Black State by Caleb Gayle Can the Rodeo Save a Historic Black Town? One woman’s quest to rescue Boley, Oklahoma, The Atlantic, by Caleb Gayle In This EpisodeLinks: We Refuse to Forget: A True Story of Black Creeks, American Identity, and Power by Caleb GayleFind Professor Gayle at www.calebgayle.com, Instagram: @calebgayle, Twitter: @gaylecalebFind Dr. Leah Payne at drleahpayne.com, subscribe on Substack, follow her on most social media platforms at @drleahpayne, listen along at Spirit & Power: Charismatics & Politics in American Life & Rock that Doesn’t Roll: the Story of Christian Rock, and read along: God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to Straight White American Jesus. In this episode, Brad Onishi and co-host Dan Miller dig into the resignation of Joe Kent and the unraveling narrative around Iran. Kent’s claim—that Iran posed no imminent nuclear threat—directly contradicts statements from figures like Mike Johnson and exposes what the hosts see as a familiar pattern: shifting justifications, vague timelines, and a disregard for expertise in favor of political loyalty. The conversation traces how dissent from within MAGA ranks—especially from someone like Kent—signals fractures in the movement, even as those critiques are quickly dismissed by Donald Trump. For Onishi and Miller, the deeper issue is a political culture where intelligence, experience, and even firsthand knowledge of war are subordinated to rhetoric, loyalty, and “feelings” about national security. The episode then widens its lens, connecting foreign policy to a broader “culture of death” that the hosts argue defines the current political moment. From Pete Hegseth’s blunt justification that “it takes money to kill bad guys” to the rhetoric emerging from his religious circle—where his pastor Brooks Potteiger and podcast host Joshua Haymes discussed James Talarico in terms that included prayers for his death and suggestions he should be “stopped by any means necessary”—Onishi and Miller highlight a throughline of violence, dehumanization, and theological justification for harm. They argue that this kind of language—casting opponents as enemies of God or demonic threats—creates a moral framework where violence becomes not just acceptable but righteous. The result is a dangerous fusion of nationalism, militarism, and extremist theology, where political disagreement is reframed as spiritual warfare and the stakes are nothing less than life, death, and the future of American democracy. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the end of his chapter on men as “warriors,” we finally get to his full vision of what a “warrior” is. What does Hawley have to tell us? Is there anything specifically “war-like” about his warriors? Or anything specifically Christian? Or even anything particularly masculine. Not so much, as it turns out. As Dan argues in this episode, Hawley’s really just in it for the culture war. Take a listen and check it out! Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Brad Onishi takes on a provocative question: is James Talarico really a “liberal Christian nationalist,” as critics on both the right and left have claimed following his primary victory over Jasmine Crockett? Drawing on the widely cited definition from sociologists Andrew Whitehead and Samuel Perry, the episode breaks down what Christian nationalism actually is: a fusion of Christian and American identity, a belief in divine sanction for political domination, and a moral framework that privileges Christians as uniquely legitimate citizens. Onishi argues that simply being a religious politician—or even using theological language in public debate—does not meet this threshold, pushing back on claims from figures like William Wolfe and C.J. Engel, as well as critiques from scholars like Heath Carter. Through close analysis of Talarico’s own words and political theology, the episode contends that his emphasis on pluralism, the separation of church and state, and universal human dignity stands in direct opposition to Christian nationalist ideology. Rather than advocating for a theocratic state or privileging Christians above others, Talarico frames his faith as a call to inclusive democracy and care for all neighbors. Onishi warns that labeling figures like Talarico as “Christian nationalists” risks flattening important distinctions and obscuring the anti-democratic aims of actual Christian nationalist movements. The result is a deeper exploration of how faith can show up in politics without undermining democracy—and why precision in our language matters now more than ever. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this Sunday Interview, Bradley Onishi sits down with historian Matthew Avery Sutton to discuss his sweeping new book Chosen Land. Sutton argues that from the colonial era onward, Americans have pursued a centuries-long project to transform North America into a “holy land” that could usher in God’s millennial kingdom. Paradoxically, the founders’ decision to create a secular Constitution and protect religious freedom through the First Amendment helped fuel the explosive growth and innovation of American Christianity. Without a state church, religious leaders became entrepreneurs—competing for followers through media, technology, and spectacle—helping make the United States far more publicly religious than many other Western democracies. The conversation explores how a long-standing Protestant cultural dominance shaped American politics and public life, from Abraham Lincoln navigating religious expectations in the 19th century to Barack Obama confronting controversy over Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Sutton also explains the decline of mainline Protestantism, the rise of evangelical branding, and why the very term “evangelical” is largely a modern reinvention rather than a continuous tradition stretching back to figures like Jonathan Edwards. The episode closes with a look at today’s Christian nationalism, culture-war politics, and apocalyptic thinking—from debates about Israel to interpretations of global conflict—asking whether the United States is witnessing the last gasp of white Protestant dominance or simply another revival in a long and turbulent religious history. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of Straight White American Jesus, Brad Onishi and Dan Miller dive headfirst into the Trump administration’s approach to Iran—and the deeper worldview shaping it. They examine the escalating conflict, the strategic importance of the Strait of Hormuz, and the administration’s apparent failure to anticipate Iran’s most obvious leverage point. But beyond the geopolitics, Brad and Dan argue that something larger is at play: a model of “MAGA masculinity” that prizes action over thought, rejects expertise, and treats diplomacy and long-term relationships as weakness. From Pete Hegseth’s press conferences to the firing of intelligence experts and counter-terrorism staff, they trace how a culture that glorifies brute force and disdain for knowledge can produce catastrophic decision-making—with real human costs. In the second half of the show, the conversation turns to newly released depositions from former DOGE officials tasked with slashing federal grants. The clips reveal young operatives with little expertise making sweeping cuts based largely on whether projects referenced feminism, LGBTQ people, or racial minorities—raising serious questions about the real meaning behind the administration’s war on “DEI.” Brad and Dan connect these revelations back to their broader theme: a governing philosophy rooted in domination, resentment, and the rejection of intellectual or moral accountability. They close by asking whether the Iran conflict could fracture the MAGA coalition ahead of the midterms—and by reflecting on what healthier forms of masculinity, leadership, and public responsibility might look like in contrast. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The third role Josh Hawley tells us that men are called to play is that of “warrior”? But what does that mean? Where might we look for an exemplar? One of Josh Hawley’s answers is another Joshua, the figure from the Hebrew Bible, tasks with reclaiming the “Promised Land” for the Israelites. But the biblical book of Joshua commands the “utter destruction” of the inhabitants of the land, raising profound concerns about genocide and ethnic cleansing. Is this really the model of masculinity Hawley says we should follow? Listen to this week’s episode to hear Dan’s discussion of how Hawley responds, and what this tells us about “manhood” as he imagines it. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Host Annika Brockschmidt sits down with historian Thomas Zimmer for a wide-ranging conversation about the politics of history in the age of Trumpism—and why Zimmer ultimately decided to leave the United States after years teaching at Georgetown and return to Germany with his family. Reflecting on the increasingly hostile climate for scholars and public commentators, Zimmer discusses how harassment, threats, and the broader erosion of democratic norms shaped that decision. From there, the conversation turns to a deeper historical question: how the Trump administration and its intellectual allies are attempting to reshape the story Americans tell about their past. Brockschmidt and Zimmer analyze recent speeches and rhetoric from figures like Donald Trump, JD Vance, Marco Rubio, and Senator Eric Schmitt, arguing that the contemporary right is moving away from the traditional language of American ideals toward a vision rooted in ancestry, heritage, and “blood and soil” nationalism. They place this rhetoric in historical context, tracing the long-running conflict between civic and ethnic visions of American identity—from the nation’s founding through the Civil Rights era and into today’s MAGA movement. The result, they argue, is not simply partisan messaging but a broader political project aimed at redefining who counts as a “real” American and rolling back the pluralistic aspirations that emerged from the civil rights revolution. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Straight White American Jesus, Brad Onishi and Dan Miller break down the Trump administration’s military action against Iran and the political and religious rhetoric surrounding the conflict. They examine the contradictions in Republican messaging, with some officials describing the action as a war while others insist it is not. Brad and Dan also discuss the lack of a clear public justification similar to what preceded previous conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan, the internal divisions within the MAGA coalition over foreign intervention, and the growing criticism coming from prominent conservative voices. The conversation also explores how Christian nationalist rhetoric is being used to frame the conflict, with several political and religious leaders describing the situation in explicitly religious terms or invoking biblical responsibility toward Israel. Brad and Dan contrast these narratives with dissenting voices within conservative and Catholic circles who oppose military escalation. The episode also turns to the Texas primary results, including James Talarico winning the Democratic Senate nomination, record Democratic turnout, and the high profile Republican runoff between John Cornyn and Ken Paxton. Together, these developments highlight ongoing fractures within the Republican coalition and shifting political dynamics heading into the next election cycle. Subscribe for $3.65: ⁠https://axismundi.supercast.com/⁠ Subscribe to our free newsletter: ⁠https://swaj.substack.com/⁠ Order American Caesar by Brad Onishi: ⁠https://static.macmillan.com/static/essentials/american-caesar-9781250427922/⁠ Donate to SWAJ: https://axismundi.supercast.com/donations/new Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sarah Posner sits down with New York Magazine senior writer Sarah Jones to unpack the accelerating assault on transgender rights in Kansas and beyond. They trace how a new Kansas law retroactively invalidating updated gender markers on driver’s licenses fits into a broader, decades-long Christian right strategy—one that cloaks theological convictions in the language of “common sense” and “biology.” From spiritual warfare rhetoric in statehouses to Supreme Court signals about religious motivation, Posner and Jones explore how anti-trans legislation operates as both a wedge issue and a cornerstone of a hierarchical gender ideology rooted in patriarchy, biblical literalism, and political calculation. They connect these state-level efforts to federal actions under Trump—from executive orders to agency guidance on bathroom bans—and examine how figures like Pete Hegseth and his mentor Doug Wilson frame masculinity, authority, and power. The conversation widens to consider how anti-trans politics intersects with abortion criminalization, punitive theology, and the rise of pronatalism across MAGA and NatCon spaces. They analyze the confirmation hearing of Surgeon General nominee Casey Means, whose blend of anti–birth control rhetoric, “sacred fertility” language, and pseudoscientific wellness ideology has sparked backlash—even from Christian right influencers like Erick Erickson, who denounced her as dabbling in witchcraft. Posner and Jones probe the uneasy coalition between evangelical patriarchy and MAHA-style new age conspiracism, asking whether this radicalized right-wing alignment can outlast Trump—or simply mutate into something more extreme. The episode closes with Posner’s Anti-Doom segment, highlighting federal judges—some Trump-appointed—who are forcefully pushing back against unlawful immigration enforcement, reminding listeners that the constitutional order still has defenders. Sarah Jones is an award-winning senior writer for New York Magazine, where she covers religion and national politics. She serves on the editorial board of Dissent Magazine, and was previously a staff writer for The New Republic. Her first book, Disposable: America's Contempt for the Underclass, is available now from Avid Reader Press. She is based in Brooklyn.  Disposable by Sarah Jones: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Disposable/Sarah-Jones/9781982197438 Creator: Sarah Posner: https://www.sarahposner.com/ Producer and Engineer: Dr. Ger FitzGerald Executive Producer: Dr. Bradley Onishi Production Assistance: Kari Onishi Generous funding provided by the Henry Luce Foundation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices