Why Automattic CEO Matt Mullenweg went to war over WordPress

Today, I’m talking with Matt Mullenweg, the founder and CEO of Automattic and the public face of WordPress. Last year, Matt essentially went to war, publicly and in the courts, against a hosting company called WP Engine, and there’s been significant fallout at Automattic and the broader WordPress community.   It’s been a long, drawn-out saga. That said, Matt was willing to come on the show and talk through some of this thinking here, why he made some of the decisions he did, and also what he regrets about how some of this went down.  Links:  The messy WordPress drama, explained | Verge Celebrating 20 Years of Automattic | Automattic Matt Mullenweg: ‘WordPress.org just belongs to me’ | Verge Automattic offered employees another chance to quit over | Verge WordPress owner Automattic is laying off 16 percent of workers | Verge Tumblr will move all of its blogs to WordPress | Verge Beeper was just acquired by Automattic | Verge Automattic acquires relationship manager Clay | TechCrunch How WordPress and Tumblr are keeping the internet weird | Decoder How to buy a social network, with Tumblr CEO Matt Mullenweg | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Hinge founder and CEO Justin McLeod. Hinge is one of the biggest dating apps in the United States — it’s rivaled only by Tinder, and both are owned by the massive conglomerate Match Group, which has consolidated a huge chunk of the online dating ecosystem. Justin and I dug into that here, and we also explored some of the thorny issues around AI and dating, Hinge’s monetization, and data privacy in the second Trump administration. This is a fun one, with a whole lot going on. I think you’ll like it.  Read the full interview transcript here on The Verge. Links:  How We Do Things | Hinge Hinge’s First Gen Z Report | Hinge Hinge’s new AI feature judges your prompt responses | TechCrunch When Cupid Is a prying journalist | NYT / Modern Love Tinder CEO Faye Iosotaluno to step down in July | CNBC Match Group CEO Rascoff to lead struggling Tinder app | WSJ Replika CEO says it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots | Decoder Apple ordered to keep web links in the App Store | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. Decoder is on a short summer break right now, but we’ll be back starting June 23 with new episodes, and we’re very excited for what we have on the schedule.  In the meantime, we have an episode from the excellent podcast Stay Tuned with Preet, with host and former U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara. Last month, Preet sat down with former FTC Chair Lina Khan for a pretty high-level discussion about antitrust, monopoly power, and the ongoing shift from both political parties in the United States toward more aggressive, bipartisan regulation of Big Tech. I think you’ll find it really interesting.    Links:  Stay Tuned with Preet | Apple Podcasts Google loses ad tech monopoly case | Verge Judge greenlights FTC’s antitrust suit against Amazon | Verge Judge rules that Google ‘is a monopolist’ in US antitrust case | Verge Illegally fired FTC commissioners on Meta, bribes, and fighting for privacy | Decoder The case for breaking up Google has never been stronger | Decoder DOJ antitrust chief is ‘overjoyed’ after Google monopoly verdict | Decoder DOJ’s Kanter says the antitrust fight against Big Tech is just beginning  | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Taskrabbit CEO Ania Smith. Taskrabbit is an interesting company; it’s known best for being a platform for hiring people to put together your furniture, so much so that Ikea acquired it in 2017. But Taskrabbit is still operating as a mostly independent company all these years later, and Ania is now in charge of maneuvering a fast-changing labor market during uncertain economic times and a potentially major AI disruption to the workforce on the horizon. Help us plan for the future of Decoder by filling out a brief survey: voxmedia.com/survey. We’d really appreciate it. Thanks! Links:  Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky wants to build the everything app | Decoder Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is okay with reinventing the bus | Decoder Google’s Project Mariner | Google Uber is testing a service that lets you hire drivers for chores | Verge Taskrabbit CEO on using empathy in leadership | Fortune Taskrabbit takes over on-demand moving service Dolly | GeekWire Ikea integrates Taskrabbit booking service into checkout | Retail Dive TaskRabbit to close its offices, go entirely remote | MarketWatch IKEA has bought TaskRabbit | TechCrunch Taskrabbit CEO: People will still power an AI workforce | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Runway CEO and co-founder Cris Valenzuela. This one’s special: Cris and I were live at an event in New York City last month hosted by Alix Partners, so you’ll hear the audience from time to time.  Runway is a leading AI video generation platform, and it’s getting better all the time. That puts Cris and his company on the same collision course with creators, artists, and copyright law as every other part of the AI industry — and you’ll hear Cris and I really get into all that here. Links:  AMC Networks inks deal with AI company Runway | Hollywood Reporter We made a film with AI. You’ll be blown away — and freaked out | WSJ Mark Zuckerberg just declared war on the entire advertising industry | Verge Runway says its latest AI video model can generate consistent scenes, people | Verge Runway releases an impressive new video-generating AI model | TechCrunch Runway Trained on Thousands of YouTube Videos Without Permission | 404 Media Runway partners with Lionsgate to train on its catalog of video | Verge AI companies lose bid to dismiss parts of visual artists' copyright case | Reuters Help us plan for the future of Decoder by filling out this ⁠brief survey⁠. Thank you! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky. This is Brian’s fourth time on the show, and he’s one of my favorite guests because he’s so clearly obsessed with things like company structure, design, and decision making. You know, Decoder stuff. This time, Brian came on to talk about the company’s new services product and the full-scale redesign and rebuild of the Airbnb app to support these broader ambitions. There’s a lot of fun, very Decoder-y stuff in this one. Read the full transcript here on The Verge.   Links:  Airbnb’s new app has all of your vacation extras in one place | Verge “Flat design is over” | Brian Chesky Airbnb Is in midlife crisis mode | Wired He revolutionized travel. Can Airbnb’s founder redesign your entire life? | WSJ Airbnb’s CEO explains how he helped Sam Altman during OpenAI fiasco | Fast Company A conversation with Airbnb’s Brian Chesky | Figma Jony Ive is bringing his design talents to Airbnb | Verge Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky on what founder mode really means | Decoder Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky is taking it back to basics | Decoder Why the future of work is the future of travel, with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky | Decoder Help us plan for the future of Decoder by filling out this brief survey. Thank you! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with journalist Megan Greenwell about her new book Bad Company: Private Equity and the Death of the American Dream. It comes out June 10th. It's fantastic and maddening in equal measure. I highly recommend it. In this episode, we discussed the genesis of Megan’s interest in the subject and its genesis in media — including her time as editor-in-chief of the website Deadspin, which underwent a very public PE takeover of its parent company. We also talk a lot about the healthcare industry, another major pillar of Megan’s book. I'm excited to hear what you think of this one. Links:  Bad Company | HarperCollins Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys ‘R’ Us | Decoder Private equity Is gutting America — and getting away with it | NYT I was fired from Deadspin for refusing to ‘stick to sports’ | NYT Will private equity be the next ‘Big Short’? | Marketplace The profit-obsessed monster destroying American ERs | Vox Why your vet bill is so high | The Atlantic The investment firms leave behind a barren wasteland’ | Politico Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinde Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In what's become a bit of a Decoder tradition, I spoke with Google CEO Sundar Pichai in person after I/O. The conference this year was all about AI, particularly a slew of actual AI products, not just models and capabilities. To Sundar, this marks the beginning of a new era for search and the web overall. So I had to ask: what happens to the web when AI tools and eventually agents do most of the browsing for us? It was a very Decoder conversation. Read the full transcript here. Links:  Help us plan the future of Decoder! | AUDIENCE SURVEY The 15 biggest announcements at Google I/O 2025 | Verge We tried on Google’s prototype AI smart glasses | Verge AI Mode is obviously the future of Google Search | Verge News publishers call Google’s AI Mode ‘theft’ | Verge Details leak about Jony Ive’s OpenAI device | Verge DOJ says Google must sell Chrome to crack open monopoly | Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | Verge Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is okay reinventing the bus | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi. We recorded this conversation on the same day Uber announced a big set of product updates, including new options for shared rides. Dara was in New York for all that, so he came to our studio and we did this one together, which always makes for a great episode.  If you’ve been listening to Decoder recently, you know that I’m very curious about how service apps like Uber will handle things like AI agents. Dara had a lot of thoughts there. There’s a lot in this one, and Dara didn’t hold back. I think you’re going to like it. Links:  Uber’s new bus-like feature is nearly 50 percent cheaper than UberX | Verge An interview with Dara Khosrowshahi | Stratechery Uber preps for Waymo’s robotaxi launch in Atlanta | Verge Uber ends year in the black for the first time ever | Verge Uber’s not out of the woods yet | Verge UberX Share brings carpooling back to NYC and eight other cities | Verge Uber CEO vows to be ‘hardcore’ about costs, slow hiring | Verge Transcript Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Kevin Scott, the chief technology officer of Microsoft, and one of the company’s AI leaders. Kevin is one of my favorite repeat Decoder guests, and he joined the show this time to talk about the future of search.  Microsoft just announced an open-source tool for websites to integrate AI powered natural language search with just a little bit of effort, in a way that lets them actually run whatever models they want and keep control of their data. I saw some demos before Kevin and I chatted, and the improvements over the bad local search on most sites was obvious. So we talked about what this will mean for AI, for search engines, and for the future of the web.  Links:  Microsoft’s plan to fix the web: letting every website run AI search for cheap | Verge Microsoft Build 2025: news and announcements from the developer conference | Verge Introducing the Model Context Protocol | Anthropic Copyright Office head fired after reporting AI training isn’t always fair use | Ars Technica Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott on how AI and art will coexist in the future | Decoder Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott thinks Sydney might make a comeback | Decoder Microsoft’s CTO explains how AI can help health care in the US right now | Vergecast Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/669409 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices