The East Wing as a Metaphor

The bulldozing of the East Wing of the White House late last week was shocking to much of the nation, Mary and Andrew included. They begin there with concerns, not only about preserving its rich history, but the ethical and legal questions that arise from the president using private donations to fund this ballroom build, and how the Anti-Deficiency Act might apply. Next, an update on National Guard deployments in the California case and the 9th Circuit’s issue of a temporary stay in Portland as they consider an en banc review. And last up, the boat strikes keep coming in the Caribbean -- and now in the Pacific, as the president continues to escalate tensions. Mary and Andrew address the thorny legal issues at play when the U.S. military kills suspected traffickers in international waters.A note to listeners: Since this episode was recorded, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced another set of boat strikes in the Pacific ocean that killed 14 people. Further reading: Here is the Letter from several Democratic Senators raising concerns about donations to the ballroom that Mary and Andrew spoke about. Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Mary and Andrew begin this week with the latest in the Trump administration’s attempt to send National Guard troops into American cities. From the 9th Circuit comes a 2-1 decision lifting a lower court’s temporary block on deployments into Portland, Oregon. Plus: the government has asked the Supreme Court to weigh in on the use of National Guard troops in Chicago. Mary and Andrew analyze the legal repercussions of both, then move to reporting on a Trump administration promise to betray U.S. informants in order to secure a prison deal with El Salvador. And while a week feels like a year these days, the co-hosts review both John Bolton’s indictment last Thursday and James Comey’s recent motion to dismiss his case based on vindictive and selective prosecution. Before wrapping up this week, Mary and Andrew take a beat on last week’s oral arguments before the Supreme Court in Louisiana v Calláis that dealt directly with the Voting Rights Act and whether redrawing districts can be used to remedy disenfranchising voters in Louisiana.Further Listening/Reading: Here is Andrew’s conversation with former Special Counsel Jack Smith at an event at UCL in London: The State of the United States: A Conversation with Jack SmithHere is the reporting from The Washington Post Mary and Andrew spoke about: Rubio promised to betray U.S. informants to get Trump’s El Salvador prison deal.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On October 8, 2025, President Trump deployed the Texas National Guard to the Chicago area – marking yet another instance of military force being used domestically under his leadership. This follows earlier deployments of federal troops to states like California and Oregon. These actions point to a deeply troubling pattern: the use of U.S. military forces – trained to defend the nation from foreign threats – against its own citizens. Mary McCord, Executive Director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection and a Visiting Professor of Law at Georgetown University Law Center, joins WITHpod to discuss the legal and ethical implications of this alarming trend – and what it means for democracy. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Jen Psaki is on a mission to show us how the Democratic party can use this political moment to fight and win again. On Season 2 of her podcast, “The Blueprint,” she interviews the people reshaping the party, starting with Texas Congressman Greg Casar, Chair of the Progressive Caucus. The first two episodes of “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki” are available now, and will continue to drop every Wednesday, from now through mid-November.   Stay right here to listen to a special preview. And for the full episode, search for “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki” and follow the show. Plus, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad-free listening.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Last Thursday, New York Attorney General Letitia James was indicted by a grand jury on two counts. This, on the heels of former FBI Director James Comey’s arraignment, where pre-trial motions were granted around vindictive and selective prosecution. Mary and Andrew use these two examples to explain why targeting individuals instead of crimes violates some of the Justice Department’s most sacred norms. Next, they walk through the latest court battles around federalized National Guard troops in Oregon and Illinois, with a 7th Circuit ruling in Chicago and oral arguments in the 9th circuit over the Portland deployment. Last comes a notable article from Professor Caleb Nelson, one of the nation’s foremost originalist legal scholars, who questions granting increasing executive authority to the presidency.    Further reading:Here is Professor Nelson’s article written for NYU Law’s Democracy Project: Special Feature: Must Administrative Officers Serve at the President’s Pleasure?Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Democrats are looking to regain power, and there is a whole lot of warranted debate about what a winning formula looks like. “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki” is a forum where those discussions take place. On season two of her podcast, Jen sits down with some of the biggest names on the left side of the political spectrum to talk about confronting Trump 2.0 and how the Democratic party can shape the future they’d like to see. New episodes drop October 15th. Search for “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki” to follow the show. And subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad-free listening. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Military action is a stark theme this week, as Oregon and Illinois sue the Trump administration over its attempts to federalize National Guard troops for deployment into both states. Mary and Andrew break down not one, but two temporary restraining orders that block deployments to Oregon, as Trump appointed Judge Karin Immergut cites Trump’s own words to show the facts don’t support what he alleges about “war ravaged” cities. Then, they dig into the administration's fourth deadly boat strike on alleged drug traffickers near Venezuela, highlighting how the lack of apparent legal authority might play out, as Attorney General Pam Bondi answered questions from the Senate Judiciary committee Tuesday. Last up, Andrew and Mary turn to two consequential decisions that don’t bode well for the Trump administration: one decision out of Boston, barring efforts to deport non-citizen activists; and a second finding of a “likelihood of vindictive prosecution” from a Nashville judge as it relates to the seeming retaliatory charges against Kilmar Abrego-Garcia.Further reading: MSNBC’s Carol Leonnig and Ken Dilanian report: Top prosecutor is rejecting Trump pressure to charge New York AGMary And Tess Bridgeman’s piece for Just Security:  What the Senate Judiciary Committee Should Ask A.G. Bondi on Drug Cartel StrikesJudge Karin Immergut’s two decisions in Oregon:Immergut’s First TRO blocking federalization of the Oregon National Guard. Immergut’s Second TRO blocking deployment of any “federalized members of the National Guard” to the state.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In Mary and Andrew’s estimation, there is no effort from the Trump administration to say things softly, the quiet part is very much out loud. They begin with the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey by Trump’s newly installed U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Lindsey Halligan, noting how much these targeted charges upend the tradition of a separation between the White House and the Justice Department. The next stop is Portland Oregon, where the president announced his intent to deploy troops to the city in a Saturday Truth Social post, calling it “war ravaged”. Oregon immediately sued to stop the national guard deployment, so Mary and Andrew catch listeners up on where this stands and what to expect. And last, they turn to Trump’s domestic terror memorandum, announcing his intent to investigate left-leaning groups he suggests may be funding political violence. Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

President Trump’s pressure campaign to take action against perceived adversaries is unrelenting. Mary and Andrew start this week by breaking down a public push for Attorney General Pam Bondi to prosecute Trump’s political foes, just as Virginia’s U.S. Attorney was ousted for failing to bring charges against Letitia James and Jim Comey. The focus then turns to the government’s attempt to control critics and silence opposition after last week’s abrupt suspension of Jimmy Kimmel, backed by FCC Chair Brendan Carr, as well as what the president designating ANTIFA as a “terrorist organization” actually means. On the flip side comes the effort to dismiss investigations into those aligned with Trump’s cause. See MSNBC’s reporting on the FBI bribery investigation into “Border Czar” Tom Homan that was shut down after Trump returned to office. And last up: Mary shares the reasoning behind a court's decision to block the removal of dozens of Guatemalan children, citing that the governments explanation "crumbled like a house of cards.”  And a reminder: There are still tickets available for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Last week’s fatal shooting of Charlie Kirk was deeply disturbing, and as Andrew establishes at the start, “murder is murder” and those responsible must be held to account. So Mary and Andrew begin with where the investigation stands and how the FBI has handled the case, as well as the lawsuit filed against FBI Director Kash Patel over alleged politically motivated firings at the Bureau. Then, co-editor-in-chief of Just Security, Ryan Goodman stops in to share his research around the end of “the presumption of regularity” in the Trump era, amid growing frustration from many lower courts. And lastly, Andrew and Mary dig into the latest twists and turns in the President’s attempt to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook.A note to listeners: After today’s recording, Tyler Robinson was charged with felony aggravated murder, among other charges.Further reading:  Here is Ryan Goodman’s research in Just Security: The “Presumption of Regularity” in Trump Administration LitigationAnd a reminder: There are still tickets available for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.