#138 Why Engineers Vibe Code Better Than You - With Simon Klinkert

I sat down with Deian Isac, an SEO consultant who works with startups, to ask the question founders keep bringing me: Is SEO for startups dead, or more alive than ever? Deian came up through copywriting and SEO. Now he runs audits and content work for B2B clients. He also builds his own product, Taiki Base, a knowledge base turning into an AI agent platform. He has strong opinions about AI content, and most of them are about what not to do. So I asked him where a bootstrapped founder should actually spend their first SEO hours.His answer surprised me more than once. Forget the blog. Build case studies and use case pages instead. Point AI at your own database to make a page nobody can copy. Then spend your marginal hour off-page, not on it. This one is for founders doing their own SEO who are tired of hearing SEO is dead.What you'll see:- Why on-page SEO is now a commodity and the moat moved off-page- The statistics page competitors can't replicate, built from your own data- Why 600 blog posts can earn two clicks a month- Why paying $100 a month to track 20 random prompts tracks nothing real- How Deian runs AI agents overnight for a few cents with Taiki Base🥐 JOIN THE BUILDERS COMMUNITYhttps://www.product-bakery.com/community?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=seo-for-startups-deian-isac🤖 ABOUT DEIAN ISAC:Website: https://deianisac.com/?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=seo-for-startups-deian-isacLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deian-isac/X/Twitter: https://x.com/deanwithaniTakibibase: https://takibibase.com/?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=seo-for-startups-deian-isac#seoforstartups #taikibase #vibecodingChapters:0:00 Is SEO dead or more alive than ever3:07 When a startup should start SEO3:46 Forget the blog, do case studies6:12 Does AI search change SEO9:04 Writing content AI can't copy15:19 Cleaning up years of blog debt18:42 Fix your About page and copy26:55 Where a solo founder starts32:31 So is SEO actually dead✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩🌍 Website: https://www.product-bakery.com/👨‍💻 LinkedIn: Product Bakery📸 Instagram: @productbakery🐦 X/Twitter: productbakery20

I sat down with Darius Mora, who's spent almost ten years in the app business. He was Reflectly's first employee and CMO, and he helped grow the journaling app to over 20 million users. Last year his app studio shipped 35 products. One of them made $175.000 in its first three weeks with zero ad spend. Now he runs Absorbed, a toxin scanner for women. He also runs the App Marketing Accelerator with his co-founder Maria. So I asked him the question every builder is stuck on: how do you make an app succeed in an App Store that's completely saturated?Instead of keeping it abstract, I handed him my own old wardrobe app to coach live. What came out is a distribution-first playbook. It's built for the moment when anyone can ship an app in a weekend. If you can build but can't get anyone to find what you built, this one's for you.What you'll see:Why distribution now beats the product, and why last year's ASO keyword arbitrage is already deadProduct channel fit, picking the channel before the feature so you can show value in three seconds (Cal AI, Absorbed)Onboarding as a sales letter, where 80% of paying customers decide in the first five minutes- Qualified volume, why one video got 2 million views and 4 installs while another got 100.000 views and 100 installsBuilding his own attribution tools because App Store numbers and expensive third-party tools don't workPicking a co-founder you can be miserable with, and why co-founder dispute kills more startups than competition🥐 JOIN THE BUILDERS COMMUNITYhttps://www.product-bakery.com/community?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=video🤖 ABOUT DARIUS MORA:Website: https://dariusmora.com?utm_source=yspotify&utm_medium=videoAccelerator: https://appmarketingaccelerator.com?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=videoServices: https://stan.store/darius-mora?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=videoInsta: https://www.instagram.com/buildwithdarius.ai/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moravcik/Chapters:0:00 The app that made 175K in three weeks1:02 Meet Darius Mora2:50 Why ASO stopped working this year4:38 Riding a keyword before everyone else9:22 Efficient at the wrong thing14:50 Finding your feature channel fit18:30 Onboarding is really sales27:38 Why friction helps onboarding29:05 Viral views vs paying users37:15 How he found his co-founder✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/👨‍💻 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠🐦 X/Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠productbakery20

What if the best AI automation builders right now aren't developers at all? In this episode, I sit down with Lena Schaefer, a non-engineer ops leader. We pull apart how she builds AI automation and agents inside startups. No code. She left corporate in 2022 to become the first finance hire at Levity. Now she runs operations across Europe and the US.What you'll see:- The Socratic ladder she runs to turn vague pain into a defined, buildable automation- Why the missing owner is the real bug, not the missing tool- The decision rule for automation vs a narrow agent vs a plain spreadsheet- Guardrails that stop runaway token burn: least-privilege access and a three-try cap- Her lean prompting stack: caveman language, voice input, and no screenshots🤖 ABOUT LENA SCHAEFER:Website: https://lenaschaefer.me/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=video&utm_content=JunJTQuHWAsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lena-sc/GitHub: https://github.com/Berlena🥐 JOIN THE BUILDERS COMMUNITYhttps://www.product-bakery.com/community?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=video&utm_content=spotify#automation #startuplife #processes Chapters:00:00 The contract nobody renewed00:56 From bank auditor to AI ops builder03:26 Her first ChatGPT automation, and why it backfired08:01 How to find the process worth automating14:38 Automation, AI agent or spreadsheet?20:20 Why she stopped using Zapier and Make21:53 Stop burning tokens: the 3-try rule30:23 Caveman prompts and 3 rules against ops chaos✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/👨‍💻 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠🐦 X/Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠productbakery20

I sat down with Michael Kantor, president of HOL (Hashgraph Online). Before HOL, he was a senior full-stack engineer and then an engineering lead at Finder. He founded a company called KiloStripe. He also sits on the Hiero Technical Steering Committee at the Linux Foundation, where HOL contributes open standards. So when he talks about AI agents going rogue, it comes from building the infrastructure himself, not from a slide deck. I brought him one question. What happens when your agents stop being tools you use and start doing work on their own? And how do you keep them from wrecking things? What came out was a blunt tour of the risks nobody warns you about. Michael and his team built HOL Guard because they had so much anxiety letting Codex build their own infrastructure. This one is for anyone handing Claude Code or Codex to their team and quietly hoping nothing breaks.What you'll see:The importance of AI and Cybersecurity in 2026Why HOL Guard sits between the agent and every tool call, so a poisoned model physically can't delete your S3 bucketThe number that started it all, Codex reading environment secrets 2 to 3 times an hour over an 8-hour jobWhy people flip AI into YOLO mode, and how per-command policy beats approving every single actionThe café WiFi attack, and why the real risk is the wire between you and OpenAI, not your laptopWhat Michael refuses to do with agents: automate email, generate blog posts, trust someone else's sandbox🤖 ABOUT MICHAEL KANTOR:Website: https://hol.org/go/guard/christian?dest=%2Fguard&link_id=798e5135-9786-4a8b-bf79-602986ed6ee1&utm_source=christian&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=defaultLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kantorcodes/X/Twitter: https://x.com/Kantorcodes🥐 JOIN THE BUILDERS COMMUNITYhttps://www.product-bakery.com/community#aiagents #holguard #buildinpublicChapters:0:00 What if agents actually work for us1:53 Who is Michael Kantor2:45 What agents get right and wrong7:56 The danger of unknown AI models13:00 The genie is out of the bottle16:44 HOL Guard for the other 99 percent22:12 How agents identify each other29:03 Running your own agent team35:35 HOL Guard live demo40:51 The mistakes people keep making✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩👨‍💻 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠🐦 Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠productbakery20⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/⁠

I sat down with Simon Klinkert. He built the banking backend at Trade Republic. Now he is building a new US bank in stealth. He hasn't written a line of code by hand since ChatGPT V3. So I asked him how a non-technical builder like me gets better at vibe coding.What you'll see:Treat AI like a junior engineer, not a genieWhy the bottleneck moved from writing code to reviewing itThe review swarm: 2 to 5 agents checking architecture, duplication, security, and complianceHow Conductor runs 10 isolated agents at once without collisionsThe four practices I'm stealing: testable goals, a weekly maintenance agent, deterministic CI checks, daily user acceptance testing🤖 ABOUT SIMON KLINKERT:Website: https://simonklinkert.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-klinkert/GitHub: https://github.com/sklinkert🥐 JOIN THE BUILDERS COMMUNITYhttps://www.product-bakery.com/communityChapters:0:00 Is your AI app any good?1:53 Treat AI like a junior5:56 Code review is the bottleneck7:55 Review agents and security11:02 Why context matters13:35 What Conductor actually does20:20 Moving development to the cloud27:42 Auditing a startup setup29:12 The cultural shift needed30:52 Where LLMs go next35:47 Scheduling weekly review agents37:47 User acceptance testing setup✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩👨‍💻 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠🐦 Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠productbakery20⁠⁠⁠⁠🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/

This is the official end of the product bakery. Thanks to everyone who followed us for 4 years! Tune in one last time! If you want to stay in touch let's connect on LinkedIn: Christian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christianstrunk/ https://www.christianstrunk.com/ https://www.solopreneur-coaching.com/ Alex: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexdapunt/

-SUMMER BREAK UNTIL MID OF AUGUST- Is innovation dead? Do companies even innovate or just re-use and refine existing innovation? This week, we discuss the necessity of innovation and what companies and teams can do to move forward. ✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩ 👨‍💻 Linkedin: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🐦 Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠productbakery20⁠⁠⁠ 🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/

In this episode, Alex coaches Christian on how to create a holistic design and brand system that can be applied consistently across multiple channels. ✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩ 👨‍💻 Linkedin: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🐦 Twitter: ⁠⁠productbakery20⁠⁠ 🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/

Spoiler: This episode might be disturbing and might change your point of view on how product people and organizations should work... ✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩ 👨‍💻 Linkedin: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🐦 Twitter: ⁠productbakery20⁠ 🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/

We discussed the current situation in the hiring and job market, addressing why hiring processes often drag on and the challenges encountered by both parties. This is particularly hard when either a candidate or a company realizes, late in the hiring process, that there isn't a good fit. ✩ Follow The Product Bakery Podcast ✩ 👨‍💻 Linkedin: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Product Bakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@productbakery⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🐦 Twitter: productbakery20 🌍 Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.product-bakery.com/