#191: Debra Curtis — Becoming a Novelist After Sixty, Surviving Hundreds of Rejections, Radical Forgiveness, and Not Giving Up as a Writer

Edgar Award–winning novelist Chris Pavone on creating tension that never lets up, editing a book to make it bigger rather than just better, and turning a single apartment building into a portrait of a whole city. We discuss Why every book has to be one clear thing before it can be anything else. How two decades of editing other people’s books prepares you to write your own. The offhand note from a legendary editor that quietly transformed a debut, and why the vaguest feedback can be the most useful. What it means to edit a book to make it bigger, not just to make it less bad. Why tension, not speed, is what truly keeps a reader turning pages. A counterintuitive case for telling readers what’s coming on page one, then making them wait for it. How to keep generating questions and withholding answers without ever feeling coy. The one-page document worth months of tinkering before a single chapter gets written. What turns a story set in a city into a genuine portrait of that city. When to separate your hopes from your expectations, and what success can actually look like for a working novelist. Resources & Links Chris Pavone’s Website Chris’ Newsletter The Doorman Ernest Hemingway Doubleday Publishing John Grisham The Expats Pat Conroy Jamaica Kincaid Knopf Publishing Adele Parks To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee James Bond Films The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison The Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe Jack Reacher by Lee Child About Chris Pavone Chris Pavone is the New York Times bestselling author of The Doorman, Two Nights in Lisbon, The Paris Diversion, The Travelers, The Accident, and The Expats, winner of the Edgar and Anthony Awards for best first novel. He was a book editor for nearly two decades and lives in New York City with his family. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Award-winning novelist Missouri Williams on writing strange and ambitious fiction, treating doubt as a generative force, and why idleness is essential to creative work. We discuss How a destabilising illness and a new language can reshape a writer’s whole relationship to words. Why style isn’t something you construct so much as a way of seeing you’re partly stuck with. The case for drafting without thinking about the end result and keeping the stakes low. What an image you can’t stop returning to can reveal about the book you need to write. When idleness and empty, unproductive time become the most essential part of the work. How doubt can function as a generative engine rather than a block. A method for layering instability into a narrator who sounds completely in control. What a chorus can do on the page that a single narrator can’t. Why being placed outside your depth, where everything has to be relearned, can sharpen a writer. The difference between doubting your work and doubting your right to do it at all. Resources & Links 📑 Interview Transcript Missouri’s Instagram Sisters of Mercy’s song, “Flood II” The Vivisectors King Lear with Sheep The Doloriad Missouri’s Agent John Ash Samuel Beckett Ágota Kristóf 2023 Winner of Republic of Consciousness Foundation “Form Is Back” Meditations by René Descartes Dead Ink publisher The Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser The Republic by Plato About Missouri Williams Missouri Williams is the author of The Doloriad, which won the 2023 Republic of Consciousness Prize, was shortlisted for the VCU Cabell First Novelist Award, and named a best book of 2022 by Vulture. Her work has also appeared in The Nation, The Baffler, The Believer, Granta, and The Drift. Her newest book is The Vivisectors. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Bestselling novelist Holly Ringland on writing from joy instead of fear, the toolkit she built to meet the inner critic with self-compassion, and finding the first true sentence of her debut after decades of silence.   We discuss Why the pain of not writing eventually outweighs the pain of writing. What grief and loss can crack open in a writer that nothing else can. How the first true line of a novel can arrive once you stop listening to the reasons you can't write it. A bullet-point approach to plotting that protects the nervous system from the blank page. What to ask for from early readers, and what to refuse. The distinction between self-doubt and the inner critic, and why it matters. Meeting the inner critic with an equal and opposite internalised force. Breaking procrastination by making the next step impossibly small. Fiction as the lie that tells the truth truest.   Resources & Links 📄Interview Transcript The House That Joy Built The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron Zeitgeist Agency Dangerous Writing Holly’s Substack About Holly Ringland Holly Ringland is a writer, storyteller and TV presenter. She is the author of the international bestseller The Lost Flowers of Alice Hart, which has been translated into thirty languages and adapted into a seven-part TV series starring Sigourney Weaver, produced by Amazon Prime and Made Up Stories. In 2019, The Lost Flowers of Alice Hart won the Australian Book Industry Award General Fiction Book of the Year. In 2021, Holly co-hosted an eight-episode ABC TV series, Back to Nature, with Aaron Pedersen. After living between Australia and the UK for ten years, Holly has been based in the Yugambeh region of southeast Queensland since 2020, where she wrote her second novel, The Seven Skins of Esther Wilding, in her 'office', a vintage caravan named Frenchie. Upon publication, The Seven Skins of Esther Wilding became an instant national bestseller, and it was named Booktopia's 2022 Book of the Year. Holly writes a bestselling Substack on the intersection of creativity and connection, The Joy Rise. Her latest book is The House That Joy Built. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Attention researcher Dr Gloria Mark (Attention Span), bestselling author Oliver Burkeman (Meditations for Mortals) and book strategist Charlie Hoehn (Play It Away) on designing your day around peak focus, embracing imperfection in creative work and bringing play back to the page. You'll learn The four states of attention every writer should know. Two daily peak focus windows, and a simple method to find your own. The reframe that gives writers permission — most writing isn't flow. How the success of one bestselling book can paralyse the next. A quantity-over-quality method that satisfies the inner perfectionist. Why free writing isn't a warm-up but the engine of the next draft. A counterintuitive trick for handling interruptions when you're trying to write. What play deprivation quietly does to creative output. A small experiment with play that resets your relationship to work. Why fighting your own nature as a writer is a losing game.   Resources & Links Dr Gloria Mark Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness and Productivity by Dr Gloria Mark Chronotype (Sleep Foundation) Morningness Eveningness Questionnaire Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi Yohaku no bi: The Beauty of Empty Space Gloria's website Gloria's newsletter Oliver Burkeman Meditations for Mortals Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals The Imperfectionist (newsletter) Deep Freewriting by Stephen Lloyd Webber ILYS software Charlie Hoehn Play It Away The Power of Play | Charlie Hoehn | TEDxSantoDomingo Charlie's website Author Alliance Original Episode Links Dr Gloria Mark's original episode Oliver Burkeman's original episode  Charlie Hoehn's original episode   About the Guests Gloria Mark is Chancellor's Professor of Informatics at the University of California, Irvine. She received her PhD from Columbia University in psychology and studies the impact of digital media on people's lives. She has published over 200 articles, and in 2017 was inducted into the ACM SIGCHI Academy, which recognises leaders in the field of human-computer interaction. She has presented her work at SXSW and the Aspen Ideas Festival, and her research has appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, NPR, CNN, The Guardian, the Dax Shepard show, the Dave Asprey show and many others. She is the author of Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness and Productivity. Oliver Burkeman worked for many years at The Guardian, where he wrote a popular weekly column on psychology, 'This Column Will Change Your Life.' His books include the New York Times bestseller Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals and The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking. His latest book is Meditations for Mortals. Charlie Hoehn is a three-time New York Times bestselling editor, five-time author, and the founder of Author Alliance. For three years, Charlie was Tim Ferriss' Director of Special Projects and first full-time hire. Together, they launched The 4-Hour Body to #1 New York Times, #1 Barnes & Noble, and #1 Amazon overall. Previously, he was Head of Multimedia for Scribe Media, where he produced over 500 videos and 300 podcast episodes. He is a keynote speaker who has presented to groups at Microsoft, PepsiCo, the Pentagon, U.S. Military, Stanford, TEDx and HEC Paris. His ideas on work-play integration have been featured on NPR's TED Radio Hour, Fast Company, Forbes, Financial Times, Huberman Lab, Chase Jarvis Live, TEDx, and many others. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Debut novelist Rebecca Fallon on ambition, motherhood, crafting dual timelines, and writing a novel built around the person who isn't there. We discuss Why quitting a stable job to write a novel can be framed as a calculated bet rather than a leap of faith. How to prototype the writer's life before fully committing to it. What genre fiction can teach a literary novelist about plotting and structure. How a single late-stage scene revealed who the actual protagonist of the book had been all along. The unsexy spreadsheet work behind a novel that moves between timelines. A method for getting inside a child's consciousness on the page. Why each character has to serve a distinct function—and what happens to the ones that don't. How music, photographs, and even PowerPoint can become tools for holding a character's voice. The difference between flow-state writing and the surgical work that comes after. What changes when you stop drafting airy scenes and start asking what each scene needs to earn its place. About Rebecca Fallon Rebecca Fallon is a New England-born Londoner and a graduate of Williams College and the University of Oxford. Family Drama is her debut novel. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Bestselling author Steven Pressfield on what it means to have a creative calling, battling resistance, the role of faith in writing, and his memoir Govt Cheese. A remastered version of episode #058. You'll learn: Why a typewriter sat untouched in the back of a van for seven years before becoming a career. How self-sabotage shows up at the finish line, not just at the start. A rule of thumb for telling resistance apart from legitimate doubt. Why the more important a project is, the more terrifying it should feel. When you can finally write about pain, and why distance matters more than rawness. How an idea for a book might arrive as a single sentence and refuse to leave. A one-page method for outlining a novel, and why one page is enough. What John Keats's concept of negative capability can teach a writer in the dark middle of a draft. The metaphor that reframes writers as delivery drivers rather than creators. Why faith in the muse matters most when the writing feels too good to be your own. Resources & Links 📄 Transcript (unedited) Govt Cheese The War of Art Put Your Ass Where Your Heart Wants to Be Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t "This Might Not Work" – Seth Godin The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler Steve's 'passage through the wilderness' series on Instagram The Creative Act by Rick Rubin The Foolscap Method Instagram videos John Keats's concept of 'Negative Capability' Joanna Penn About Steven Pressfield Steven Pressfield (@SPressfield) is the author of The War of Art, which has sold over a million copies globally and been translated into multiple languages. He is a master of historical fiction, with Gates of Fire being on the required reading list at West Point and the recommended reading list of the Joint Chiefs. His other books include A Man at Arms, Turning Pro, Do the Work, The Artist's Journey, Tides of War, The Legend of Bagger Vance, Last of the Amazons, Virtues of War, The Afghan Campaign, Killing Rommel, The Profession, The Lion's Gate, The Warrior Ethos, The Authentic Swing, An American Jew, Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t, The Knowledge, and his memoir Govt Cheese. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lulu. If you're interested in self-publishing, Lulu has the technology you need to turn your idea into a professionally published book. Our community anthologies are published using Lulu and we’ve used their direct ecommerce integration and on demand publishing to send the anthology all over the world. The editorial team has found it really intuitive to use. For more information head to lulu.com. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Debut novelist Debra Curtis on teaching herself to write by copying poems by hand as a dyslexic child, using contemporary novels as craft manuals to learn structure, meeting the Dalai Lama, the importance of radical forgiveness & publishing her first novel in her sixties after years of rejection.  You'll learn: Why copying poems by hand into a composition notebook secretly teaches a dyslexic child to write. The hospital-bed moment with her dying father that became a three-decade family motto. A vision at a marina, a prescription bottle, and the woman who became her protagonist. What hundreds of rejections actually teach you about persistence. Using contemporary novels as instructional guides while drafting your own. How a psychic’s prophecy and a chance encounter in Paris both pointed toward the same agent. Finding your future agent’s name in the acknowledgments of a book you’ve never read. The big editorial note that hurts to hear, and why listening anyway is still the right call. Radical forgiveness as the emotional heart of a novel. The writing ritual built around a sleep mask, noise-cancelling headphones, and a sound machine. Resources & Links: 📄 Interview Transcript The Freeing of The Dust by Denise Levertov Laws of Love and Logic by Debra Curtis Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus Publisher’s Marketplace Debra’s Instagram Debra’s TikTok About Debra Curtis: Debra Curtis is a retired professor of cultural anthropology at Salve Regina University, where she specialised in gender and sexuality. This is her first novel. She is the mother of grown-up twin girls and lives in Rhode Island with her husband and her English bulldog, Harry, who is the star of much of her TikTok content. TikTok: @EnglishHarry; FB: @DebCurtis; Instagram: @Deb.curtis.906. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lulu. If you're interested in self-publishing, Lulu has the technology you need to turn your idea into a professionally published book. Our community anthologies are published using Lulu and we’ve used their direct ecommerce integration and on demand publishing to send the anthology all over the world. The editorial team has found it really intuitive to use. For more information head to lulu.com. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Screenwriters Hannah Bos (HBO’s Somebody Somewhere), Kim Krizan (Before Sunrise, Before Sunset) and Selina Lim (Sex Education, Hanna) on building writing partnerships, developing characters from the inside out, and finding your way into a writers’ room.   You'll learn Why a writing partnership only works when you can separate your ego from your ideas. How seven years of making weird theatre in Brooklyn quietly set the stage for an HBO show. What it takes to write a quiet, character-driven show in a TV landscape built for plot. How a master’s thesis on a diarist turned into one of the most beloved screenplays of the nineties. How Before Sunrise was built from index cards on a living room floor. Why thinking about the product kills the work, and what to focus on instead. The case for starting with character before plot, and letting the story follow. What breaking into TV actually looks like. How to set the tone in a writers’ room so the ridiculous ideas can surface. A practical approach to dialogue. Episode Links #070: Hannah Bos — Writing TV From The Heart, HBO’s Somebody Somewhere, Artistic Partnerships, Writing Friendships For The Screen #99: Kim Krizan — Writing 'Before Sunrise' series, Crafting Memorable Characters For Ethan Hawke & Julie Delpy & Other Screenwriting Tips #013: Selina Lim — Writing Authentic Dialogue for TV, Writing about Sex, Love & Drama, and A Peek Into a Writers’ Room About the Guests Hannah Bos is a Brooklyn based writer who, along with her writing partner Paul Thureen, is the creator and showrunner of HBO’s Somebody Somewhere. The first season received an AFI Award and Peabody nomination, and Hannah and Paul were nominated for a 2022 Humanitas Prize for Comedy Teleplay for the pilot episode. Together they have also written for HBO’s High Maintenance and Amazon’s Mozart in the Jungle, and received an Independent Spirit Award nomination for Best First Screenplay for their feature Driveways (dir. Andrew Ahn), which premiered at the Berlin Film Festival. Along with Oliver Butler, Hannah and Paul were founders and co-Artistic Directors of The Debate Society, a multiple-Obie award-winning, Brooklyn-based theatre company. As an actor, Hannah has received a Drama Desk Award and Lortel Nomination. Contact: www.hannahbos.com Kim Krizan is the Academy Award-nominated writer of the films Before Sunrise and Before Sunset. Her book Original Sins: Trade Secrets of the Femme Fatale is a tongue-in-cheek examination of history’s dangerous women. She is also the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin, an analysis of the life of the 20th-century rule-bending diarist. Krizan’s work has been hailed as insightful, penetrating, and profound. She lives and writes in Los Angeles, California. You can find her on Instagram and Patreon. Contact: www.instagram.com/kimkrizan Selina Lim is a BAFTA and BIFA-nominated screenwriter, with credits on Sex Education (Eleven/Netflix) and Hanna (Amazon/NBC). Her short films include Painkiller (BBC/B3 Media) starring Benedict Wong, Keeping Up with the Joneses (BFI/Lighthouse) with Maxine Peake and Adeel Akhtar, and BBC Studios/Green Door’s Five By Five starring Ruth Madeley. Selina has also written for Hollyoaks (Lime Pictures/Channel 4) and was in the writers’ room for The Night Manager Series 2 (The Ink Factory/AMC). Contact: www.curtisbrown.co.uk/client/selina-lim Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lulu. If you're interested in self-publishing, Lulu has the technology you need to turn your idea into a professionally published book. Our community anthologies are published using Lulu and we’ve used their direct ecommerce integration and on demand publishing to send the anthology all over the world. The editorial team has found it really intuitive to use. For more information head to lulu.com. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Literary agent Juliet Mushens on what makes her offer representation, how she builds bestselling careers from debut to long-term success, and why writers need a life outside of publishing. We discuss Why tension is the single most important quality an agent looks for in any genre of fiction. How personalized feedback from an agent signals you’re closer than you think. The editorial conversation that happens when an agent offers representation. What to consider when choosing between multiple agent offers, and why gut matters more than questionnaires. How some of today’s biggest bestsellers had their first and second books rejected — and what changed. Why writing for the market rarely produces the best books, and how to hold the tension between passion and positioning. The publishing myths that refuse to die, from social media requirements to green book covers. How agents negotiate contracts and why an escape clause matters. The concept of inconvenience over convenience and what it means for writers in the age of AI. Why building a sense of esteem outside writing is essential to surviving the highs and lows of publishing. Resources & Links 📄Interview Transcript Mushens Entertainment Submissions Mushens Entertainment Blog Get Started in Writing Young Adult Fiction by Juliet Mushens Juliet Instagram  Mushens Entertainment Instagram About Juliet Mushens Juliet Mushens has been an agent for over a decade. More than a dozen of her clients are Sunday Times bestsellers, with half a dozen claiming the number one slot in the last two years alone. Her clients include million-copy no. 1 bestseller Jessie Burton, multi-million copy NY Times bestseller Taran Matharu, and record-breaking multi-million copy no. 1 bestseller Richard Osman. The Times ran a piece recognising her as the first agent to represent the number 1, 2, and 3 UK bestsellers in the same week: ‘Star literary agent first to top the charts three times’, a feat she repeated in 2022. Juliet sits on the advisory board of Book Brunch, is currently President of the British Fantasy Society, and sits on the board of the Women’s Prize Trust. You can find her on Twitter as @mushenska. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lulu. If you're interested in self-publishing, Lulu has the technology you need to turn your idea into a professionally published book. Our community anthologies are published using Lulu and we’ve used their direct ecommerce integration and on demand publishing to send the anthology all over the world. The editorial team has found it really intuitive to use. For more information head to lulu.com. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!

Singer-songwriter and author Josh Ritter on writing songs for the muse instead of waiting for it, letting creative ideas find their shape across songwriting, painting, and fiction, and building a sustainable creative life over more than two decades. We discuss: Writing for the muse instead of waiting for it. Why working across multiple art forms keeps each one alive. The craft behind a single narrative song, from first image to finished track. Balancing creative compulsion with everyday life. What sharing work publicly teaches you about your own work. How the relationship between an artist and their audience evolves over decades. Mental health and the myth of the tortured creative. Getting through the dead stretch when nothing seems to come. The campfire model of building a creative career. Resources & Links: 📄Interview Transcript Josh’s Substack Hello Starling I Believe in You, My Honeydew  Truth is a Dimension (Both Invisible and Blinding) About: Josh Ritter is an American singer-songwriter, musician, artist, and author. He performs and records with The Royal City Band. He writes on Substack at  Josh Ritter’s Book of Jubilations. His latest album, I Believe In You, My Honeydew, is out now. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lulu. If you're interested in self-publishing, Lulu has the technology you need to turn your idea into a professionally published book. Our community anthologies are published using Lulu and we’ve used their direct ecommerce integration and on demand publishing to send the anthology all over the world. The editorial team has found it really intuitive to use. For more information head to lulu.com. For show notes, transcripts and to attend our live podcasts visit: podcast.londonwriterssalon.com.For free writing sessions, join free Writers’ Hours: writershour.com.*FOLLOW LONDON WRITERS’ SALONTwitter: twitter.com/​​WritersSalonInstagram: instagram.com/londonwriterssalonFacebook: facebook.com/LondonWritersSalonIf you’re enjoying this show, please rate and review this show!