What is Ethical AI use in Fraud Examination? with Mark Nigrini

Kelly interviews Georgia attorney Jon David Huffman about fraud cases and victim experience. Huffman says embezzlement in positions of trust is more often committed by women in his experience, discusses the difficulty of finding good lawyers, and notes investigators could be stronger referral sources though rules limit referral fees. Jon explains his career path was influenced by a mentor and a decade-long family dispute rooted in a fraudulent M&A deal, leading him to a practice where he found about 80% of cases involve fraud. He describes using Georgia’s private warrant process when police decline clear-cut fraud, contrasts rural vs. metro prosecution challenges, and shares trial moments where cross-examination exposes cons. He’s writing “The Real Cost of Fraud” to counter victim self-blame, recounts being conned twice, and recommends resources like American Greed and fraud-related books.Connect with Jon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jondavidhuffman/00:25 Fraudster Dinner Picks01:26 Who Embezzles More02:44 Origin Story of Fraud Lawyer04:52 Bad Lawyers and Referrals07:10 Private Warrants When Cops Won’t10:11 Selling Fraud Cases to Prosecutors12:41 Victim Emotions and Grief15:33 Why Trials Are Thrilling18:08 Why Fraud Cases Don’t Settle21:23 Brazenness and Range Rovers24:55 Writing The Real Cost of Fraud26:52 Books and Red Flags30:00 Even Lawyers Get Conned31:31 Law Firm Embezzlement Story33:54 Fraud Docs and Reading List36:34 Final Advice and Wrap Up

From Hedge Fund Fraud to Redemption: Sean's Story at ACFE GlobalIn this Fraudish episode, the host interviews Sean, a former hedge fund manager who spoke at the 37th annual ACFE Global conference closing. Sean describes growing up in a working-class Denver home, dropping out of college, becoming a stockbroker, and launching a short-term trading hedge fund at 32. After early success, a losing month threatened his identity, leading him to conceal losses, escalate deception, and contemplate suicide when the SEC investigated; he instead cooperated, accepted responsibility, and later served 13.75 years of a 40-year state-prison sentence, plus six months in a halfway house, earning time off through good behavior and an associate’s degree. He shares prison lessons on judgment, authenticity, and trust, then reintegration through completing a bachelor’s degree and speaking, including a podcast that led ACFE’s John Gill to invite him to speak. The conversation also touches on fraudster dinner choices (Nixon), gender and theft, recommended books and podcasts, leadership lessons from prison softball, and a humorous aside about Mercedes vs. Range Rovers.00:40 Dinner With a Fraudster01:54 Who Steals More03:42 From Denver to Hedge Fund05:29 First Loss and Cover Up07:01 SEC Call and Ledge08:12 Cooperating and Identity09:47 Family Ego and Balance13:58 Prison Reality Check18:44 Trust Among Manipulators20:31 Time Served and Halfway House23:28 Speaking Path to ACFE25:30 Mercedes Not Range Rover27:09 Podcast Influences28:32 Money Talk and Private Jets29:50 Finance Shows That Miss33:25 Wall Street Roots and Validation35:08 Writing the Redemption Book37:48 Integrity Culture Reading List39:35 Did Employees Know41:08 How Investors Trusted Him45:18 Next 15 Years and LeadershipConnect with Sean:https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanmueller5280/https://proactiveethics.com/

Psychology of Belief with Neal aka Fraud GuyKellly interviews fraud attorney Neal, head of Global Fraud Investigations and Asset Recovery at the  law firm Rimón, about his 30+ year career representing receivers, trustees, banks, insurers, investors, and victims of large-scale Ponzi and other financial crimes. In a wide-ranging discussion, Neal says men commit more fraud, explains why “clean” bankruptcy files are uncommon, and shares examples of debtors hiding assets (including collector cars and offshore trusts) and how trustees lack resources to pursue fraud. He talks about his first major fraud work enforcing a $1.5M State Farm judgment and describes fraudster psychology as consistent with antisocial personality traits and narcissistic tendencies, arguing fraud is often about power, not money. They also discuss ethics risks for “fraud warriors,” victim belief and sunk cost, synthetic identity fraud growth, and lawyers going bad.Connect with Neal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fraudattorney/Do you know what Rimon means? 00:46 Ponzi Dinner Pick01:45 Who Steals More03:26 Inside Rimón Firm06:42 Bankruptcy Fraud Tales12:32 Trustee Life Reality15:26 First Fraud Case17:58 Fraud Warrior Ethics20:17 Theranos and Dirty Tactics23:17 Power Lawyers and Lies24:51 Fraudster Psychology Profile27:31 Power Over Money28:59 Madoff And Affinity Fraud29:57 Fraud Warrior Temptations31:12 Accountability Versus Justice33:00 Why Smart Victims Fall35:54 Fraud Getting Worse38:25 Belief Beats Rationality40:28 Pop Culture Gets Fraud Wrong43:30 Lawyers Going Bad46:35 System Fails Self Policing

Hardcore Con, the Shoebox Scam, and How Fear Fuels Fraud with Johnathan WaltonKelly interviews returning guest Johnathan Walton about cons, victims, and his podcast Hardcore Con. They discuss how anyone can be scammed, especially those who believe it can’t happen to them, and how multiple “red flags” compound; Kelly also describes adopting a family “code word” to thwart scams. Walton breaks down the “shoebox” case in which a financial journalist was manipulated by spoofed calls and fake FTC/CIA agents into withdrawing $50,000 and handing it to a stranger, explaining how scammers use fear, emotion, and sunk cost fallacy. They touch on jury-duty and tech-support scams, Walton’s efforts to help victims build compelling cases for police, and his series Cocaine Air. Walton previews Hardcore Con episodes on Brittany Murphy, arguing a con artist husband isolated her and withheld medical care, and teases an upcoming episode about an Amazon-related blackmail scheme.Previous link to Johnathan's first appearance: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2pOZAQ9W8rRfURhyfQVJd8https://www.buzzsprout.com/1261361/episodes/17653295-even-fraud-has-a-silver-lining-with-johnathan-walton01:37 No Victim Shaming04:03 Safe Word 05:04 Hardcore Con Tease05:46 Red Flags Checklist06:44 Shoebox Scam Breakdown08:24 Fear And Sunk Cost12:55 Jury Duty Scam15:42 Helping Victims Report16:52 Cocaine Air Update23:59 Beak Wetting Explained25:07 Gender And Motives27:59 Power Over Money28:19 Breadcrumb Setup Trap30:30 Fraud Crumbs Tactics32:00 Desperation And TJ32:48 Honeypots And Raids34:18 What To Watch Now35:41 Sharper And Silent Scams37:25 Corporate Gossip And Frank40:34 Hardcore Con Brittany Murphy44:13 Legal Fraud And Nonprofits47:08 Amazon Blackmail Episode49:06 Handyman Escort Underworld51:45 Books That Stop Cons53:13 Final Thanks And Wrap

Fraudish welcomes guest Kathy Chambers, connected through LinkedIn, to discuss storytelling as a driver of change and effective marketing in cyber and fraud. Kathy shares her path from radio/TV degrees and 10+ years as a TV news producer to University of Florida media director, then pivoting during COVID to ITProTV, where she hosted 250+ audit episodes and later the Certified Ethical Hacker series, falling in love with cybersecurity’s “drama” and later its protective mission. She describes producing a cybersecurity show, quickly booking major industry names, and networking through conferences like Wireless Hacking Fest. They discuss how stories—not statistics—stick in presentations, fraud, and cyber marketing, criticizing generic “AI-powered” messaging and advocating people-centered narratives, even via scenarios when privacy blocks details. Kathy explains building client trust, her focus on helping small-to-medium businesses. Shout out to  her podcast Authentically Cyber.Connect with Kathy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathychambersmedia/https://kathychambersmedia.com/Authentically Cyber Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyVUHRwg9INfOUJVlYLpm-zzKvtcD9NP7Show times!00:00 Meet Kathy Chambers00:53 Fraudster Dinner Question02:01 From News to Cyber05:32 Hosting Ethical Hacker07:12 Launching Cyber Show09:28 Networking at Conferences11:03 AI Deepfake Fears13:45 Why Audit Matters16:01 Storytelling Beats Stats17:39 Cyber Marketing Stories19:26 Remembering Tom Cronkite20:37 Why Stories Stick21:15 Rebranding a New Business22:30 Pink Collar Crime Series Idea24:08 Making Victims Relatable26:13 Getting Companies to Share30:25 Tractors Not Ferraris32:12 Leaders as the Story35:12 Marketing Cuts Pet Peeve36:32 Ideal Client Avatar39:44 TikTok and LinkedIn Magic40:28 Closing Thanks and Mattering

Serena Morones on Forensic Accounting, Mentoring, and Using AI to Find Fraud FasterPodcast host Kelly interviews Serena Morones of Morones Analytics about fraud, forensic accounting, and her career path. In a speed round, Morones says she’d most like to have a meal with Robert Jesenick, the CEO behind Oregon’s largest Ponzi scheme (Aequitas), to understand how rationalization and the “slippery slope” begin. They discuss gender patterns in fraud: women more often in classic embezzlement/bookkeeper cases, men more often in complex multi-entity schemes and investment fraud with larger dollar amounts. Morones recounts shifting from plans for law school to forensic accounting after seeing litigation-support work at Pricewaterhouse, emphasizing creativity, communication, and courage. She describes monthly group mentoring sessions and her focus on credibility and truth-telling among expert witnesses. Morones also shares her sports photography hobby and explains how AI is improving investigations by speeding document analysis and visualization, with a staff member dedicated to tool development. She notes she most enjoys investment fraud cases, recommends “Mr. Bates vs the Post Office” and “The Big Short,” and encourages young professionals to pursue the field for justice while staying committed to truth in court.00:00 Welcome Serena Morones00:45 Meal With a Fraudster04:14 Men vs Women Theft08:29 Building Morones Analytics13:24 Creativity in Forensics17:33 Mentoring the Next Gen20:59 Sports Photography Outlet22:39 AI in Forensic Accounting32:47 Favorite Case Types34:54 Fraud in Pop Culture38:07 Gerry Spence Truth Lesson40:13 Career Advice and WrapConnect with Serena:https://www.linkedin.com/in/serenamorones/https://moronesanalytics.com/team/serena-morones/

Returning guest Marguerite Lorenz is here to talk about all things trust and estate related. She has a new book, Luck or Control, The Life-Improving Power of Estate Planning,” reflecting on how a rushed, outdated will during the host’s husband’s terminal cancer diagnosis made planning urgent and life-easing. Lorenz argues estate planning is not about wealth or only death, but about documenting preferences for incapacity, healthcare, and distribution to avoid confusion, family conflict, fraud risks, and costly probate (noting a $46,000 minimum in California for a $1 million estate). They discuss choosing qualified estate-planning attorneys, updating plans, naming multiple healthcare agents, tracking fiduciary actions, avoiding “early inheritance” ambiguity, and real cases involving elder financial abuse, safe deposit boxes, life estates, pet trusts, no-contest clauses, and special needs/public benefits concerns, directing listeners to planforthis.com for a free toolkit.and you need to go and get it!  https://planforthis.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/californiatrustee/Previous episode with Marguerite: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-21-marguerite-c-lorenz-ctfa-clpf-master-trustee/id1530413097?i=10005103724910:58 Why Estate Plans Matter03:14 Cost Versus Probate06:17 Free Toolkit And Hiring Help07:28 Fiduciary Duty Explained08:37 Family Caregiving Gray Areas12:43 Document Everything As Trustee15:31 The Black Box Problem17:52 Choose Your Three People20:35 Agency And End Of Life Choices24:42 Mabel Casino Cautionary Tale27:23 Preventing Inheritance Fights29:46 No Contest Clauses And Spite32:17 Leaving Love Not Destruction33:26 Fairness Between Children34:02 Fairness Can Flip34:37 Needs Based Trusts35:39 Love Not Punishment37:46 Planning for Incapacity41:04 Life Estates and Marriage Myths43:51 Pet Trust Pitfalls46:53 Sign the Documents48:44 Wills and POA Basics50:28 Stop Clever Workarounds52:05 Safe Deposit Box Chaos55:35 Special Needs and Flexibility01:00:34 Fund the Trust and Wrap Up

Corporate Gossip’s Becca Platsky on CEO Myths, Enron Obsessions, and Why Humility Is Fraud ProtectionKelly Paxton hosts Becca Platsky of the Corporate Gossip Podcast (a CPA-run “business podcast for Bravo lovers”) to discuss how the show deep-dives one company per week with heavy research, financial analysis, and human-interest gossip, including episodes on Enron and the Forbes 30 Under 30 pipeline of fraudsters. They argue CEOs are often made “dumber” by constant validation and isolation, and that executive assistants may best understand what happens behind the scenes. The conversation covers wealth bias in the justice system, support letters for white-collar defendants, and the Charlie Javice/JPMorgan case as an avoidable due-diligence failure tied to elite blind spots. Platsky emphasizes community as a source of optimism, names favorite media/podcasts, and stresses that humility—recognizing anyone can commit or fall for fraud under pressure and opportunity—is key protection.01:52 What Corporate Gossip Is04:11 Why CEOs Get Dumber06:41 Executive Assistants Know09:13 Billionaire Pedestals10:36 Scott Galloway Debate12:18 Favorite Business Voices13:35 Optimism Versus Skepticism17:00 New York And Thrillerfest19:51 Dream Fraudster Interviews22:00 Who Steals More23:50 Madoff Staff And Disney24:25 Letters To The Judge27:08 Charlie Javice Case29:43 FAFSA Fraud Blindspots32:18 Range Rover Red Flags33:17 Forbes Lists and Grifts34:59 WeWork Key Man Risk36:58 Podcast Inspirations38:45 Stanford Power Plays40:49 Scammer Red Flags Books42:41 Humility Against Fraud45:54 Everyone Has a Price48:04 Women in Fraud HistoryResources MentionedNobody's FoolCorporate Gossip podcastPatreon community for Corporate GossipConnect with Beccahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/rebeccaplatsky/https://www.corporategossippod.com/

This week on Fraudish, Kelly speaks with Mark Nigrini to discuss AI’s use in fraud examination. Do you think Sam Bankman-Fried’s Anthropic investment to AI’s growing relevance? We discuss. Nigrini shares AI applications like detecting inconsistent invoices (think Rita Crundwell), finding fraud “fingerprints” in dollar amounts, analyzing contradictions in hearings, and raising ethical concerns.Connect with Mark: linkedin.com/in/mark-nigrini-7409918Get his book, Forensic Analytics: https://nigrini.com/

Guest: Melissa Jones, SIU Investigator at Crum & Forster ("OSINT Millennial")Host Kelly Paxton sits down with Melissa Jones — insurance fraud investigator, OSINT trainer, and self-described "OSINT Millennial" — for a wide-ranging conversation about building a career in Special Investigations, the art of digital digging, and why connection (both online and on the ball hockey rink) drives everything Melissa does.Episode HighlightsFraudster Dinner Date Melissa kicks things off with an unexpected pick: convicted FBI spy Robert Hanssen, someone she studied in her criminal justice master's program. Kelly counters with the usual suspects (Charles Ponzi, Elizabeth Holmes) but appreciates the espionage angle.Who Steals More — Men or Women? A detour into gender and fraud data, including a striking stat Kelly cites from a colleague's fire department embezzlement research: women make up only about 3% of fire department staff but account for roughly 28% of thefts. Melissa admits her own SIU team doesn't currently track gender breakdowns — but wants to start.From Direct Bill Clerk to SIU Investigator Melissa traces her 12-year (and counting) career at Crum & Forster: a psychology degree from Ramapo College, an entry-level insurance ops job in 2014, a move into policy operations, and a leap into the Special Investigations Unit as an analyst in 2017 after spotting an internal job posting. She was promoted to investigator in 2022 and now works alongside a nationwide SIU team of 15–16 people.Why Insurers Have the Data Advantage Kelly and Melissa talk shop on how much visibility insurance companies have into patterns of behavior — from claims data to spending anomalies — and how that data gets put to work across property/casualty, auto, workers' comp, and even pet insurance claims.Building the "OSINT Millennial" Brand Melissa describes how she got into public speaking after approaching fellow investigator Joe Stevenson at a conference in Hersheypark in 2019, which led to her first joint presentation. She's since built her own social-media-investigations talks under the "OSINT Millennial" tagline, using only publicly available content (never her active casework) to teach audiences — including a recent stop in Leominster, MA that packed the room.Industry ShoutoutsOsmosisCon and Cynthia Hetherington — Melissa has FOMO for missing this year's conference and hopes to attend next year.Ritu Gill and other women in the OSINT/investigations space Melissa admires and reshares often.Christina Fiscella— noted for her work on gray-collar crime and elder fraud cases.Hank Asher/"Hank Venice" (as referenced in the episode) and Brian from Diligentia Group — mentors and friends from the investigations conference circuit.Age, Assumptions, and Social Media Investigations A deep dive into why investigators shouldn't assume older subjects are "off the grid" — and why understanding how each platform works (not just whether someone uses it) is the real skill in OSINT investigations.Fraud in Pop Culture Melissa's take: reality TV like Survivor is basically fraud and manipulation for sport. Kelly recommends checking out a Hacks episode (Season 5) with a surprisingly relevant survivor-style storyline.Investigative Philosophy: "Dig" and "Trust but Triangulate" Both hosts bond over shared investigator vocabulary — the instinct to "dig," and Kelly's own mantra, "trust but triangulate," as a more generous alternative to "trust but verify."Ball Hockey — More Than a Hobby Melissa opens up about her ball hockey career, playing internationally (including in the Dominican Republic) and around the U.S. (Nashville, Buffalo, Vegas), plus a women's league in South Jersey. She credits the sport with building a diverse, tight-knit community — and even a professional networking connection with a teammate who works in arson investigation.NJSIA Shoutout Melissa is a board member and incoming Vice President of the New Jersey Special Investigators Association (NJSIA), which is gearing up for its 35th annual conference and networking seminar in Atlantic City this year. All are welcome to attend.https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissajones33/https://www.instagram.com/osintmillennial/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6P0m2KpUWA