EP 321 One Woman’s Story of Hope After Nearly Four Years of Unexplained Infertility

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sarah, a woman I worked with, shares her deeply personal fertility journey that was close to four years. She shares her struggles, the various treatments she explored, and the spiritual practices that helped her find hope and healing. She emphasizes the importance of perseverance, the role of alternative therapies like acupuncture, and the significance of finding the right medical support. Sarah's story is one of resilience, faith, and the power of belief in oneself and a higher purpose.   Takeaways   Sarah struggled with unexplained infertility for three and a half years before seeking treatment. She explored various treatments, including acupuncture and IVF. Visualization and spiritual practices played a crucial role in her journey. Finding the right medical support made a significant difference. Sarah emphasizes the importance of not giving up on the journey. She believes in the power of intuition and listening to one's body. Connecting with nature helped her find peace and clarity. Nutrition and blood flow are essential for fertility. Sarah's experience highlights the importance of sharing stories for hope. She encourages others to start their journey sooner rather than later.       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) I'm so excited to have you on today, Sarah, to share your story. Thank you so much for being willing to open up and inspire others with your journey. I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a bit about your experience.   Sarah (00:20) Thanks for inviting me, Michelle. My name is Sarah, and I struggled with unexplained infertility for three and a half years. I had multiple tests and examinations, visited several doctors, and went through all the standard procedures, but no one could pinpoint the issue.   During my research, I discovered that acupuncture could be helpful for infertility, as it promotes relaxation and balance. Along with acupuncture, I learned about the importance of the right supplements. That’s when I found you, Michelle, through your amazing reviews online. I reached out, explained my situation, and shared how I’d been following everything the doctors recommended, eating healthy, but still had no success. What struck me immediately when I met you was your energy and positivity. You weren’t just an acupuncturist; you were like a life coach, guiding me step by step. During our first visit, you assessed my needs, recommended supplements, and started a treatment plan. After just one session, I felt significantly more relaxed. I also started practicing the visualization techniques you suggested, spending time at the beach, watching the sunrise, and focusing on restoring my energy.   After five treatments, I was able to get pregnant naturally. It was an incredible moment, and I can’t thank you enough for your guidance and support. Michelle (03:17) I appreciate your kind words, Sarah, but I want to highlight the effort you put into this journey. You took initiative, embraced the practices, and made significant changes—that’s a big deal.   Sarah (03:28) Thank you. It was a challenging road, but your support made all the difference. To give some context, I had tried naturally for three and a half years. Then, I underwent four IUIs, but none were successful. During one of those cycles, I worked with another acupuncturist, but it didn’t help. Eventually, I decided to move on to IVF. My first IVF attempt wasn’t successful. The clinic retrieved a few eggs, but only two made it to embryos, and the fresh embryo transfer didn’t work. That experience was emotionally draining. The clinic’s lack of support left me feeling alone and uncertain. That’s when I turned to you. We started acupuncture and supplements, and your guidance helped me approach the process differently. I switched to a new clinic, which was much more supportive. They recommended combining acupuncture with IVF, and this time, everything felt more aligned.   Michelle (06:01) It’s amazing how much the right environment and support can make a difference.   Sarah (06:22) Absolutely. The second clinic was so thorough and caring. They retrieved more mature eggs, and six of them made it to embryos. We planned a frozen embryo transfer but decided to wait a few months to let my body recover. Meanwhile, I continued with acupuncture and the protocol you recommended.   Then, something unexpected happened. Before the transfer, I got pregnant naturally. It was a complete surprise. I couldn’t believe it after everything I had been through. Michelle (08:27) That’s incredible! Your story is so inspiring because you had every reason to feel defeated, yet you never gave up. What kept you going? Sarah (10:00) I’d say it was a combination of faith and determination. I also had a dream after my first failed IVF that really stuck with me. In the dream, a man in brown clothing with a beard stood over me and placed his hands out, giving me energy. It felt like a message not to give up.   Michelle (12:14) That’s so powerful. Dreams can be deeply meaningful, especially during such emotional journeys.   Sarah (13:32) It was. That dream, combined with my spiritual practices, gave me strength. I started focusing on connecting with God and nature, walking barefoot in the sand, and appreciating the present moment. I also began meditating and visualizing my body healing and preparing for pregnancy. Those practices made a huge difference. Michelle (17:22) It’s amazing how those connections to faith and nature can create such profound shifts. And I remember when you first came in, your hands were very cold, which indicated poor blood flow. Improving circulation was a key part of the treatment. Sarah (18:45) Exactly. My hands aren’t cold anymore, and I feel so much healthier overall. The blood flow improvements and supplements were game-changers.   Michelle (19:58) Blood flow is essential for nourishing the body and supporting fertility. In Chinese medicine, when the blood isn’t circulating well, it can cause stress and other issues. Supporting the body holistically allows it to do what it’s meant to do naturally. Sarah (22:33) I agree. Another big takeaway for me was learning that not all clinics or protocols are the same. Switching to a more supportive clinic and waiting for my body to recover before the frozen embryo transfer were critical steps. Patience and intuition played huge roles.   Michelle (23:44) Your intuition and persistence were key. And I’ll admit, when I first met you, I had a feeling you’d be successful. But I always try to stay neutral because I never want to give false hope. It’s about supporting the process and trusting your body.   Sarah (24:26) Thank you for believing in me. That belief made such a difference, along with everything I learned about visualization and spirituality. I’ve come to realize how powerful those tools are.   Michelle (29:23) It’s true. Visualization and faith are incredibly powerful. Thank you so much for sharing your story, Sarah. Your journey will inspire so many others who are navigating similar challenges.   Sarah (30:02) Thank you for having me, Michelle. I’m so grateful for the opportunity to share my story and hopefully give hope to others. Never give up—the results are worth it.   Michelle (30:30) Absolutely. Thank you again for opening your heart and inspiring others.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into the fascinating world of cold plunges—a trending wellness practice that seems to be everywhere lately. I explore the science behind cold exposure, its incredible health benefits like boosting mood, metabolism, and reducing inflammation, and how it impacts fertility for both men and women. Drawing on both scientific insights and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives, I share practical tips on how to use cold plunges mindfully and discuss when and how they might be most beneficial. Whether you’re curious about trying a cold plunge or wondering how it fits into your fertility journey, this episode offers a balanced and intuitive approach to this powerful practice.   Takeaways   Cold plunges boost mood, energy, and metabolism by activating the sympathetic nervous system. Brown fat activation improves metabolic health and insulin sensitivity. Helps regulate testicular temperature for male fertility but may lower testosterone levels. Reduces inflammation, improves circulation, and supports metabolic health for female fertility. Best done during the follicular phase, not during menstruation. Alternating cold and hot exposure stimulates yin and yang balance. Limit to once a month to avoid creating a "cold" pattern or energy depletion. Pay attention to how your body feels; avoid if it feels draining. May benefit those with PCOS or insulin resistance. Pair with heat exposure for a balanced effect. Avoid overdoing extreme temperature practices for fertility balance.   Research on cold plunges:  https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3895006/#:~:text=Cold%20exposure%20increased%20metabolic%20rate,in%20body%20weight%20or%20adiposity   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33764169/   https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9518606/   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1890772/   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're going to be talking about a hot topic, but it's not so hot. We are talking about cold plunges and you may have heard about the benefits. It seems to be, again, a hot topic, something that you see many people talking about. You see lots of influencers getting to cold plunges. You see them popping up in all kinds of spas. So I wanted to talk about the benefits and not just the benefits, but if they are good for fertility, I often get the question asked by my patients and my fertility clients. So let's dive in.  So, let's talk about the science behind cold plunges, really what they do to the body and what they really are. So cold plunges is really going into very, [00:01:00] very cold water, like ice water for a short amount of time. So it could be 30 seconds, it could be up to a few minutes, which honestly I could never do a few minutes of it, but it's really just immersing the body in very cold water and then coming out. Obviously you don't want to stay too long because that's not healthy either. And what that does is it actually activates your sympathetic nervous system, which is the fight or flight response. And when that happens, it actually like stimulates the body and a surge of beta endorphins and noradrenaline occur, and that can impact your energy, it can impact your mood, it also activates brown fat tissue and increasing metabolism, so many different health benefits can occur, and that includes increasing metabolic rates, so It can force the body to work harder to maintain its core temperature, and then what it also does is it forces [00:02:00] the blood to go inwards so that the heat is protected and the blood goes towards your organs. It's also shown to help with insulin sensitivity, so it can improve your response to insulin. And since it helps with metabolism, it can also help with weight management. I personally have done cold plunges in the past, and I will say that it has a very relaxing impact on my body. , not relaxing when you're doing it. Absolutely not. It's very, very stressful actually. And you can feel stressed when you're doing it. And it also causes you to breathe really fast. and it causes, you could definitely feel the stress. So when you're going through that, you're obviously going through some stress cause your body's not used to taking that temperature. But then after you get out, you start to feel the endorphins and you start to feel really relaxed. When I have done it, I've done it in a spa setting where you can [00:03:00] do the cold plunges and then you can go into a warm environment and then go back and forth a couple of times. So what that could do is it actually from a Chinese medicine perspective, what I see it as is that you are forcing yin and yang. mechanism in your body by doing that, it actually wakes up that yin and yang response in the body. And it forces you to go from really cold to really hot to really cool to really hot. And what that can do is when you're forcing that dial, that your body's going to start to regulate itself. It almost instigates or It prompts the body to regulate itself and create balance. There have been a lot of studies that have been published, and it has been found to show lots of health benefits, including health and mood, cardiovascular health. So it definitely seems to be beneficial overall for the health. Now, when it comes to male fertility, the idea is, is[00:04:00] that temperature is really important and it plays a very, very important role when it comes to the testicles. And sperm production requires a temperature of about 3. 6 to 7. 2 degrees Fahrenheit lower than the core body temperature. And this is why the testicles are located outside of the body. So you may have often heard that for male fertility, it's important that they don't heat up the testicle area. So many times people will say not to go into spas or saunas or steam rooms and to avoid hot tubs. And that is the reason why is because having that high temperature is going to cause issues with the sperm production. But it also is the reason why a varicose cell impacts sperm health is because the varicose cell is basically a varicose vein, a vein that's [00:05:00] expanded in the testicular region. for your attention. And where there's blood, there's heat. So because it's expanded, there's more blood volume and that blood volume creates more heat around that area, which impacts sperm production. So the thought is, is that , cold plunges can also maintain the optimal temperature for sperm production by lowering the temperature of the body. However, what's been shown in some cases is that cold stimulation actually decreases testosterone levels by sometimes up to 10%. Is something to definitely consider. So the question is, should you as a male start to do cold plunges or should you just avoid heat and that is. definitely something to consider. So  When it comes to female fertility, we know that other benefits are reduced [00:06:00] inflammation for cold plunges, stress reduction, improved circulation, metabolic health. So these are all things that can definitely benefit female fertility. , Now, my thing is, is that I would not suggest to do this all the time if you were to do it. I think that doing it once in a while, maybe once a month, and then also including some, heat exposure for women back and forth, just once in a while to reset the system of the body probably won't hurt. And if anything, it might activate the body and create a more calm response in the body. And as I always say, it's really important to listen to your body. Ultimately, when you feel good, you feel good. it is your body speaking to you and communicating that whatever you're doing makes it feel good. So it is important to follow that. However, if you feel more fatigue, more drained, then your body's telling you maybe don't do it too much. I [00:07:00] personally think because it is an extreme type of stimulation, it might be best to Do this more of a once in a while thing, so no more than once a month, and it might be beneficial to do it once a month because you are stimulating , the yin and yang response for a female body, and you're also possibly lowering inflammation for both male and female. However, doing it more, could also impact having too much cold in the system and I often talk about this in general, that with female fertility specifically, it's important to keep a warm womb and to also not put your feet on cold tile. I always talk about drawing up cold. Now that is also a chronic thing. So doing this all the time. Is a different story than to do it really quickly and then you're right out and then your body has enough time to [00:08:00] regulate so that you're not really doing this chronically and you're not creating like a cold pattern from this quick exposure. So there's a difference between doing something habitually and chronically versus doing something for a quick exposure. It also might help for specific conditions. So my thought would be based on the fact that it lowers inflammation, And of course, again, there's not a lot of studies on this. So this is just really my perspective on it. The fact that it lowers inflammation and the fact that it can increase metabolism and increase insulin sensitivity, I would say it may benefit anybody who's a little more overweight or has PCOS with insulin sensitivity or insulin resistance. So I would say why not try it out, try it once and then don't do it like too many times, too much[00:09:00] repetition. I would definitely try it like about once a month just to get things stimulated. I would also say that I would avoid doing this during the menstrual cycle. I would do this only in the follicular phase after the bleed before ovulation. That would be the only time that I would suggest doing this  for women. I would also listen to your body and not overdo it, not stay too long inside the cold plunge especially if it's your first time and you're not used to it. So, test it out. But again, isn't something that I suggest doing on a regular basis. And similarly, I would say the same thing with hot yoga. Hot yoga is great once in a while in moderation, especially if you tend to be something called yin deficiency, you find that your fluids are low, you tend to be more dry, your skin is dry, and you're thirsty a lot. I would definitely suggest,[00:10:00] not to do hot yoga all the time. And I would say I would only suggest it once in a while.  If you have a strong constitution that is able to withstand the heat and not get fully, fully depleted for those individuals, I would definitely say once in a while to do hot yoga if it really relaxes you, that's okay. My concern is not to get too depleted by extreme heat or extreme cold. And so it's important to really consider that when you're trying to conceive, you don't want to overdo anything and cause too much stress on the body. A little stress is okay. That's actually normal and it actually helps your body to get stronger. But you just don't want to overdo it. So it really, a lot of this is intuitive. A lot of it is common sense. A lot of it is really paying attention to your body and your body sensations and what your body's telling you. So that is my two cents on the cold plunges. I know this [00:11:00] is a little shorter of an episode compared to what I usually do, but , I felt like it was an important thing to address because it does seem to be a topic that comes up a lot as of late so Those are my thoughts on it. I definitely think it can Stimulate that yin and yang balance by forcing the body. Sometimes that's okay, but you just don't want to do this all the time. So I hope that helped you answer your questions if that was on your mind. And I want to say thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to author of “Carry On” @carryonthebook Shea Bart Andreone @shea_andreone . Shea shares her deeply personal journey through fertility challenges, pregnancy struggles, and the emotional rollercoaster of loss and hope. She discusses her desire to become a parent, the difficulties she faced with hyperemesis gravidarum, and the heartbreak of losing a pregnancy. Ultimately, Shea emphasizes the importance of resilience and the joy of welcoming her children into the world. In this heartfelt conversation, Shea Bart Andreone shares her journey through the challenges of parenthood, including loss, the search for control, and the importance of community support. She discusses her book 'Carry On', which compiles true stories of individuals navigating the complexities of starting a family. The conversation emphasizes the significance of hope and resilience in the face of adversity, and the need for emotional support in healing. Be sure to tune in as you won’t want to miss our deeply touching and hope filled conversation!   Takeaways   Shea always wanted to be a parent and started her journey with high hopes. Fertility struggles are common and can be emotionally taxing. Hyperemesis gravidarum is a severe form of morning sickness that can lead to significant health challenges. Shea experienced extreme nausea and weight loss during her pregnancy. The emotional toll of pregnancy loss is profound and can lead to feelings of guilt and despair. Shea's journey highlights the unpredictability of pregnancy and the importance of being adaptable. The desire to have children can drive individuals to persevere through immense challenges. Finding peace is possible, even amidst uncertainty. Loss can lead to discovering new activities that provide control. Writing can be a powerful outlet for processing experiences. Community support is crucial for those facing fertility challenges. The journey of parenthood can be isolating without connection. Stories of others can provide comfort and understanding. It's important to seek out community and support during difficult times.   Guest Bio:   Shea Bart Andreone was raised in Queens, New York, but moved west and loves California. She is a writer of numerous plays, essays, and maintains a blog called Twig Hugger. Shea has written multiple articles for mom and parent-oriented platforms (The Next Family, Motherfigure, LA Parent, Your Teen Magazine, and Chicken Soup For The Soul). Carry On is her first book and she hopes that it can provide hope and comfort to those who are on the fertility journey.    Websites: https://sheabartandreone.com/  Instagram: @carryonthebook @shea_andreone  X: X.comCarryOnTheBook   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast,   Shea Bart Andreone (00:01) Thank you. Thanks for having me.   Michelle (00:04) Yeah, it's a pleasure having you and I would love for you to share your story and what got you inspired to write your book Carry On. would love for you to share that with the listeners.   Shea Bart Andreone (00:17) I would love to. So I always loved kids. I always wanted a younger sibling. I wanted to babysit when my parents decided they were never gonna have another child. I'm the youngest with a big age gap. So I took on all things that could keep me around.   Michelle (00:36) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (00:45) kids so that I felt like I could be a big sister or a babysat. And I taught kids and ran day camps and stuff like that. I always knew that I wanted to be a parent and start a family. So when I did finally find the person to do that with, I thought, okay, well, when we get to that moment, it's just gonna be easy peasy and   you know, that's so exciting. We make the decision and we go. And of course, like every listener of your podcast and many, many more people around the world, it doesn't always work that way. So it took me quite a bit of time to figure out what to do. You you're instructed pretty quickly to try for longer and   I just, think I knew something was going to stop me unless I got help, but I, I did see my regular OB at the time and she suggested that we do an HSG, where they flush the iodine up your fallopian tubes. And she discovered that, I, I, you can really feel that.   Michelle (02:04) Not a fun test.   Yeah, it's crazy, but I hear so many things, so many stories, and I just wish doctors would just let people know like what's coming.   Shea Bart Andreone (02:19) Yeah, like exactly what you're gonna feel. Yeah, no, we have to experience it for ourselves. So that resulted in finding out that I had a fibroid right at the opening of my uterus. So I had scheduled the surgery to get it removed and somehow in...   Michelle (02:21) Yeah.   Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (02:48) that, well, not somehow. We know how making babies can work. I guess my husband and I were continuing to try and because of the HSG, it pushed the fibroid a little bit out of the way and I was able to actually conceive. But the fibroid and the pregnancy, they were fighting for the blood supply.   Michelle (03:16) So just backing up, were you about to do surgery for it, but then you stopped because you got pregnant?   Shea Bart Andreone (03:22) Yeah, so I scheduled a surgery and then ended up in crazy, crazy pain. like pain I'd never experienced before, like just shocking, like sharp, sharp pain. And I ended up calling the doctor and she said, go to the emergency room. And it was in the emergency room that I found out I was actually pregnant.   Michelle (03:30) Mm.   wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (03:52) And I was told basically, you gotta just kind of deal with this because they didn't know which one would win out. So I waited and I took whatever I could for pain, but not a lot, because I was like, well, I think I had a feeling like, no, no, no, I'm pregnant. Like, this is amazing.   Michelle (04:06) Got it.   wow, you felt it before they confirmed it?   Shea Bart Andreone (04:22) No, no, no. I definitely didn't know when I went in, but once I was, I was very protective. I was like, no, I don't, you can tell me all you want that like, there's a chance this won't stick, but I'm going to protect this. So I was very, very careful. And then in the end, that doctor was really not helpful. And I had like,   Michelle (04:25) Okay.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. For sure.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (04:51) crazy pain on the following Monday and ended up like my sister-in-law said, just go to my doctor, just go to my doctor. So I went to her doctor and I had a very like strong clear line in the sand that I would not go to a male doctor. And I felt like at that point I was like, okay, like we all have things on this journey that we think we're not gonna do. And we think we're gonna like,   Michelle (05:09) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Shea Bart Andreone (05:19) okay, I'm never gonna do IVF or I'm never gonna do IUI and I'm not gonna, and then like, you're like, well, I'm gonna change that. So I started with him and I really do think that because of that situation, I ended up in the right hands. So luckily for me, like that pregnancy ended up sticking.   Michelle (05:22) It's true.   that's great.   Shea Bart Andreone (05:49) and that fibroid eventually just sort of died off. However, within, I think I felt good for like two weeks and then I started feeling symptoms of hyperemesis gravidarum, which is, yeah, a few weeks in, I started feeling severely nauseous and,   Michelle (06:06) Mm-hmm. You mean early in the pregnancy.   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Shea Bart Andreone (06:18) I thought, okay, well, this will pass. This is what they tell people, like, know, morning sickness, but it's not morning sickness. Hyperamesis Gravidarum is like, if I threw up eight times in a day, that was a really good day. And I broke all the blood vessels in my face daily from the pressure of vomiting. And the blood vessels in my eyes were...   Michelle (06:35) Wow, yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (06:48) Like my, I had bloodshot eyes and just could not remember a time that I liked food. Like it was so awful to me. Like the idea of it, sipping water, anything. And originally, like...   Michelle (07:04) Yeah, that's that's a big thing, too, because people get dehydrated.   Shea Bart Andreone (07:08) Yeah, yeah, and I tried everything. tried like, you know, motion sickness bands and you know, there were lollipops that were supposed to help and ice pops and nothing, nothing, nothing. And I just didn't want anything. And that, you know, began the insane journey of my pregnancy because that led me to lose about 15 pounds.   Michelle (07:18) Mm-hmm.   Wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (07:37) And my doctor didn't quite realize how bad it was. And when he did, he was like, I am giving you medication that is going to stop the, you know, the vomiting for a few days and you have to eat. If you do not gain weight by Monday or stay the same, I have to admit you for a feeding tube. So we took the weekend.   Michelle (07:54) Yeah.   Wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (08:06) And my husband was like, can you think of anything, any food you ever liked? And I was like, pizza.   Michelle (08:18) Ha ha ha ha!   Shea Bart Andreone (08:21) For like kid food, I went to growing up, had, I think was, had Elio's frozen pizza and tater tots. And I was like, I don't even know where that came from, but okay, let's try that. And the medication was so intense that you basically like, you could eat and then you'd fall asleep. And so that started on a Friday and Saturday midday, I woke up and I felt like,   Michelle (08:23) Yeah.   The simple things.   Shea Bart Andreone (08:51) I couldn't stop moving. Like I was very restless. And I felt like this must be what restless leg syndrome is like, but it feels like this for my whole body. And that was crazy because I'd never experienced a situation like that before where you feel like it's out of control. Like you can't say kind of wreaks havoc on your mind because you don't want to keep moving, but you are.   Michelle (08:53) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:21) Yeah.   Michelle (09:21) Yeah, yeah. Is that from, was that from the medication side effect? my God, you poor thing. You got tortured.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:25) Yeah.   It's the yeah, it got worse too. Then I got jaw lock.   Michelle (09:31) no.   no.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:37) So like my entire jaw just locked to one side. And once that started, it didn't let go for 16 hours.   Michelle (09:42) no.   my God.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:51) And the only thing that would help is sometimes I could put all my upper body weight over my husband's shoulder and it would like kind of fall. And at one point in that time it moved to the other side, but it was so uncomfortable and so painful. And I remember walking to use the bathroom at some point and looking at the toilet and thinking, I'd actually rather throw up than this. Like, I'm like.   Michelle (10:01) Mm-hmm.   Mm.   poor thing. my gosh. And was that also from the medication? Wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (10:24) Yeah. And it's interesting how your brain can only focus on one thing at a time, because in the back of my mind, I was like, how could I remain pregnant through all of this? my body is going through so much trauma right now. I don't know how. And   Michelle (10:34) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (10:49) I knew that my husband was thinking the same thing, but we weren't discussing it because I was so distracted by the pain and the discomfort. But I knew that he was calling the doctor and trying to find out like, would this baby be okay? And fortunately he got the answer that like, this, guess what you eat doesn't.   Michelle (11:08) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (11:18) always and what you what medicine doesn't always go fully like you do filter those things out to a degree. And I remember the next, you know, that was over the weekend and I went back and I, I was able to maintain my weight. So he did not have to send me to the hospital. But I remember, like waiting with bated breath to see that ultrasound on Monday morning. And   Michelle (11:46) Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (11:46) there was the baby inside with its legs crossed and an arm back and like yeah I've been fine in here.   Michelle (11:55) lounging. That's amazing.   Shea Bart Andreone (12:00) Like, I know you've been in hell, but I'm having a vacation.   Michelle (12:03) I'm sure you tell the story. It's interesting because my mom actually reminded me again. You have stories that you just keep hearing over and over and over again. But truthfully, mean, suffered secondary infertility to conceive me. So I'm kind of a product of secondary infertility. And she's tried and tried and tried. She said every time I get my period, I cry.   Shea Bart Andreone (12:06) Yeah.   Michelle (12:28) And it was really the stories of the people that I treat. It's so crazy how that comes full circle. And I'm kind of like the proof that a woman can go through all of this and still have a baby. And she also had the same thing. I don't know how severe it was, but to the point where she lost so much weight, she was under a hundred pounds and her doctor said, listen, we got to abort this child. You're not going to survive. And she's like, no way.   You know, and it was, it's pretty crazy. You know, you go through this journey and then you advice that you're like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not happening.   Shea Bart Andreone (13:04) Yeah, you get advice and then also like you try again and willingly enter something this crazy because the power and the, you know, the need and the, yeah. Yeah. That desire to have children is, is pretty huge. pretty, it's, it's, it's quite magical and   Michelle (13:10) Mm-hmm.   The belief really, right? The belief in that desire.   Shea Bart Andreone (13:34) wondrous, I think. Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (13:37) I agree. I think it's meant to be there. Like, I don't think that it's a random thing. People feel that really strong calling and I don't think it's random. It's not just something that was kind of planted there for no reason. I think it's because you're meant to find the baby in one way the other. Like you were saying before about how maybe you don't expect it to be IVF, but maybe it is, and then you can kind of go back and forth. But even with...   egg donor or embryo donor or even adoption. I've had people talk about that and they said I was meant to have that baby. Like it was that calling. just that I was trying to control how it was going to show up.   Shea Bart Andreone (14:17) Yeah, yeah, it's really wild. mean, the things when you listen to other people's stories, sometimes you're like, why didn't you stop? And like, mean, or how did you keep going? How did you persevere? like, I follow someone online who is pregnant right now. And this is the first positive pregnancy test that she's gotten in over eight, like in eight years of trying. While you wait.   Michelle (14:28) Mm-hmm.   I think I saw that one. Yes. It was amazing. It was really, my God, I got the chills with the video that she showed. was like, that was amazing.   Shea Bart Andreone (14:47) Yes, it was amazing!   Yeah, like to see that double line. yeah, that's a long time. And people go through a lot. And it is not something for anyone on the outside to judge or decide or advise on because that desire, like you said, it's pretty wild. Yeah, yeah.   Michelle (14:57) Yeah, after eight years.   Yeah.   It's real.   Shea Bart Andreone (15:22) So in the end, I did get a very healthy baby and a baby girl. did not find out the gender and in the middle of a contraction, my husband, we had names for both a boy and a girl and in the middle of a contraction, my husband goes, I gotta tell you something. I don't like the boy's name. And I was like, I can't talk to you right now.   Michelle (15:45) That's funny. That is so funny.   Shea Bart Andreone (15:52) So for that sake, we were very happy to have a girl. Like we were happy to have a girl anyway. think we admitted to each other we really wanted a girl, but like, obviously we would have been over the moon for anything except that I don't know what we would have named that boy. So, you know, when she was about...   Michelle (15:59) Yeah.   Yeah, that's so funny.   Shea Bart Andreone (16:17) close to three. I wanted some time. I was really, really enjoying just like feeling healthy and raising a baby and not rushed to have another one. And so I thought, okay, well, when she like goes into preschool, then I can try to do this again. And this time I did get pregnant right away. And   was pretty sick right away as well. And my doctor found this team that like sends an IV, like teaches you guys, like a couple to do their own IVs. And I was set up to give myself, to put a port into my belly every morning with an IV that I wore as a pack.   Michelle (17:01) Mm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (17:16) that was to help me to stop throwing up. And unfortunately,   I feel like, you know, anything I deal with, like there's research that comes out like a year or two later that like, that could have helped me in that situation, but unfortunately it didn't. But the medicine that was given to me at the time is no longer on the market for pregnancies because it can stop the heart from beating. So in...   Michelle (17:33) wow.   Uh-huh.   my gosh, wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (17:55) you know, at our 12 week ultrasound, which I was hoping to celebrate, was, and talk about like power and instinct. That morning, I felt like something was wrong. And I don't know where that feeling came from, because it's too soon at that point to really feel anything, you know.   Michelle (18:15) my gosh.   Shea Bart Andreone (18:24) moving around, but I just felt like something was wrong. And I remember looking at the sky and it was like this perfect blue and telling myself that no matter what happens today, that sky is still going to be blue. And just to hold on to like, not everything is lost. And I don't, I really don't even know why I felt this like foreboding, foreshadowing feeling. but   Michelle (18:43) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (18:54) know, the doctor was, we were waiting in the room for the doctor and my husband was joking around and I said, I don't know, I don't feel like joking around. you know, when the doctor came in all friendly right away, I said, don't feel, I feel like some, I was very straightforward in a way that I don't think I usually am. And I was right, there was no heartbeat.   Michelle (19:03) Mm-hmm.   Wow.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (19:21) and I was too far along to like have anything done in the office. So I had to get checked into the hospital and yeah, it was really, really rough and awful because I felt like...   I tried so hard to do the right thing and to like keep everybody healthy. And it was awful doing like, you know, the port and injecting myself every day and all of that. And it still didn't work. So we ended up naming that baby, the name that I...   Michelle (19:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (20:08) show is with my, what I thought with my husband, but he didn't really like it. And I said, I know you didn't really like this name, but can I use it for this baby? And in that moment, he said, yep, but why don't you give all the other names that we're not gonna use next time. And that was the first time I heard him agree, like, we'll try again.   Michelle (20:13) you   wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (20:34) I hadn't thought that, like, guess it was, like, it was a lot for me, but I knew I wanted to try, but I kind of felt like, like I said about advice that came from others, like, it felt like everything in the universe was saying, you have gone through enough, take your one child, be grateful and move on. And for him to say, we will try again, it just gave me such a sense of relief that we were on the same page.   But we did agree that no matter what happened, this would be the last time because our daughter couldn't live through that again. And we couldn't, you know, do that. So we were gonna, so we tried again this time with no medication and only an IV for fluid. So I...   Michelle (20:59) Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (21:24) It's strange, hyperemesis is a weird thing. Like I definitely got it all three times that I was pregnant, but with the first one and the third one, the time of day that I could eat was totally different. I, with this, the last pregnancy, I could eat something in the morning, but once like one o'clock came, that's it. Like the gate was closed. Like there's no more putting any food or liquid into your body.   Michelle (21:30) Mm-hmm.   huh.   Shea Bart Andreone (21:54) so I did what I can, like I did what I could to eat before that time. and you know, we navigated it and, and I had a healthy baby boy. so I, I am very, very grateful and definitely, I'm aware, especially when I talk to others that are in the middle of their story.   Michelle (22:07) amazing.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (22:24) that   You don't know how your journey is going to end. really don't know how you're going to get to where you get to. But,   I know it's so cliche, like, whatever is supposed to happen, like the end of the story, it works out in the end. Like whether or not you get the biological child or adoption or foster or five dogs.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (22:58) you find peace at some point. I, my heart, yeah, my heart goes out to the people that are still in that journey and they don't have the ending yet.   Michelle (23:02) Yeah, I mean that makes sense.   Yeah, it's the ending. It's, things start to make sense at the end. And then you realize, had it not been for that exact moment, the genetics, all the alignment wouldn't be that exact child that you have. And, you know, obviously when you're holding that child in your hands, you're like, I wouldn't change this for anything. but sometimes it can be really scary because when you're going through it, you're walking into like a dark room, cause you have no idea how things are going to play out.   Shea Bart Andreone (23:37) Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (23:38) And that the unknown, as we know, is like the scariest things for humans. all, nobody likes that. It's just the unknown. And especially when it comes to such a strong desire that is so primal. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (23:43) Yeah.   Yeah, yeah. And so universal. mean, it's just procreating. That's what we think we're wired. I mean, we are wired and we think that we're meant to do it and it doesn't work out that way for everybody. So in all of that, for me though, especially in the miscarriage part, I felt like   Michelle (23:59) Yep.   Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (24:21) I didn't know who to go to and I didn't know where to, like, didn't feel, obviously I had at the time, like a three year old. And so either everyone around me in my circle at the time had a second child already or was trying to. And I didn't, I don't want to go to those people in that time.   So I ended up calling a friend of mine who had also lost several babies at the same week because I needed very specific support at that time. Like someone who really   Michelle (25:00) wow.   Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's somebody who can understand.   Shea Bart Andreone (25:09) Yeah, like understand exactly. And I talked to her and then she maybe led me to someone else. And I discovered that each woman that I spoke to had felt such a loss of control with their trajectory of what they had planned.   that they found activities that they could control to keep them a little bit grounded. It's such an ungrounding time. And one of them was like painting pottery, you know, plant pots. One ran a marathon. One was cooking and started to become a chef.   Michelle (25:45) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (26:06) And I realized that there were these like stories of activities that have, and, you know, hobbies or whatnot that came out of this. And I, I was like, okay, I got to find my, activity. So, and, and like I said, like something I can control, something I can, you know, seek from start to finish and have an outcome.   Michelle (26:07) wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (26:36) because I can't do that with a baby.   Michelle (26:36) Mm-hmm.   That's so interesting. This is the first time I've ever heard anybody put it in that way. I find it so interesting and I think that is really powerful.   Shea Bart Andreone (26:48) Yeah, it made sense to me once I realized this common thread. I was like, I get it. So I took up sewing and realized really quickly that is not going to be my thing. was one of those things I was always curious about and I like maybe took an eighth grade and didn't totally understand it. And so I was like, I'm going to try it now. And I was like,   Michelle (26:57) Mm-hmm.   Which that happens too.   Shea Bart Andreone (27:18) Nope, don't have any control over this either. But I was writing and I decided, that is something that I can do and I really love it and it can be an outlet for me. And so I decided to, because I couldn't think about anything else, to compile these stories from people.   Michelle (27:19) Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (27:47) and their hurdles and their stories of trying to become a parent. And that is how the book, Carry On, came to be. And it is stories of infertility and adoption and fostering. And most stories in the book have a happy ending, but not all the stories in the book.   Michelle (27:57) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (28:18) And yeah, mean, a lot of them, like when you're in the, if you, before you get to the end of that chapter for that person, you're like, whew. But there, you know, every story has a beginning, a middle and an end. so it's been, it, it, it's been wild to, interview people and learn about people. And you know, it is, because it's.   Michelle (28:29) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (28:47) It's my book and I put it together with all these different people. I thought I was done with it a couple of years ago. And again, talk about control and you think you're going to put a deadline on yourself and it has a life of its own. But I made a fairly new friend in the last few years.   Michelle (28:56) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Things change.   Shea Bart Andreone (29:17) And we got to know each other over something completely unrelated to fertility. And it was actually like activism against violence for something. we just connected and realized like, we should be friends, but we were so busy focusing on the cause that it took like a couple of months for us to get together and go for a walk before I like.   looked at her and said, so what do you do? Who are you? And she asked the same of me and I said, you I'm working on this book. And she said, if I had known you before, I probably would have been a chapter in your book.   Michelle (29:49) Yeah.   my gosh, wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (30:05) And it took me another couple of months of getting to know her and realizing that like, actually her story really does belong in this book and it is my book. So even though it's been done for a while, I'm adding it. So her story is one of the chapters in the book and she's the one that drew the line in the sand and said, I am never doing IVF. Like that's as far as I'll go.   Michelle (30:16) Mmm. Wow.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (30:34) And if she didn't do IVF, she wouldn't have her child.   Michelle (30:41) Wow, it's amazing how that happens.   Shea Bart Andreone (30:44) Yeah, and she and her story is really fascinating too because   Like mine, her health was at risk, you know, in order to have her child, but she, you know, went through 20 weeks of pregnancy with twins via IVF and unfortunately she lost those babies. And then, you know, knew what to expect the next time around. But when she wanted a second child,   it was just too much for her to like endure again, but it wasn't an option for her to not have a second child. So her second child is actually adopted from Ethiopia.   Michelle (31:33) my is beautiful.   Shea Bart Andreone (31:36) So it's a pretty amazing story.   Michelle (31:40) That's amazing. That's so beautiful. I had a guest, a previous guest, Dr. Lisa Miller. She wrote The Awakened Brain. She has an incredible story and it was, she was struggling to conceive for years with her husband. She had a voice in her head that kept saying, would you adopt if you had a child? If you were able to conceive, would you adopt? And she kept saying no. And then,   Shea Bart Andreone (31:48) yeah.   Michelle (32:04) one day randomly they saw something on TV. think they were either, I don't know if she was in hospital or a hotel. I don't remember exactly what it was, but like the TV wouldn't change. And it was stuck on this channel of a child that didn't have parents and her heart just blew wide open.   and her husband as well. And they're like, that's it. We're adopting. The second they decided to adopt and they got everything in order, she conceived. And she was meant to have her adoptive child. It was like something was calling her in that direction. She kept putting it off. And then all of sudden, boom, like in the right time, it was like, that was it. And then what happened was she heard that voice again in her mind.   if you were able to conceive naturally, would you still adopt? And she said, absolutely yes. Like after she decided and saw the child and it was just so powerful and she was getting all kinds of crazy signs. There was a duck that left an embryo in her door. It was right after she had a challenge conceiving. was just, it was so crazy. Like all these weird signs and it just tells you that they were part of a very cosmic intelligence.   there's got to be some kind of order that we're part of because it can't you can't explain that otherwise. There's something else. There's some other kind of divine intelligence. Yeah, yep.   Shea Bart Andreone (33:31) Yeah, whatever you want to call it, it's out there. So did she end up adopting a child and having a biological child?   Michelle (33:40) Yep. Yep. And she feels that her adoptive child is her child. Like that was the child she was meant to have. And then also her child and they were also meant to be together. It's amazing. It's just so wild on so many levels,   Shea Bart Andreone (33:56) Yeah, yeah, I just met someone I did a panel for a fertility expo and the woman sitting next to me had dealt with secondary infertility and had no issue getting pregnant with her first child and then her second child just she could not get pregnant, could not get pregnant and they had been on a list for fostering.   kids and I didn't go like she wasn't ever planning to adopt but just to help other people and to take in another child and she was thinking she was going to get like a teenager and somehow they were called randomly like two years ago with a newborn that was available and so she has raised that you know baby since birth and   Michelle (34:29) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (34:52) now is trying to adopt the baby. of course, two years, you know, year and a half into having that baby, she did get pregnant and now has three children.   Michelle (34:55) wow.   Wow. wow. you just don't know how and that's the part of relinquishing control. Like we know we have the desire and the desire is there for a reason. We just, we almost have to rely on that divine intelligence for the how. I think that that's what it is. And when we fight that, that's where I feel like it doesn't stop like you from having it eventually, but it stops the process. It delays it. think when we fight   Shea Bart Andreone (35:17) Yeah. Yep.   Michelle (35:30) that divine intelligence, that flow that's trying to move you in a certain direction.   Shea Bart Andreone (35:34) Yeah, it's really true. And also, I don't know why I keep coming back to this today, but that middle part of the story, you have to find a way to be uncomfortable in that disequilibrium and manage it, because it's not going to stay like that. It won't. Yeah.   Michelle (35:50) Mm-hmm.   Right. This too shall pass.   Shea Bart Andreone (36:01) Even like in every situation, every, like this week, my daughter was expecting to get, she had worked really, really hard for a slot and an opportunity to do something. And they were looking at 10 people and knocking it down to six. And she ended up in the bottom four and did not get that opportunity. And I'm shocked. She's shocked, she's devastated.   Michelle (36:28) Mm.   Shea Bart Andreone (36:30) And as a parent, have that like, don't really want to be more upset for them. Like there's a fine line. You got to balance like your own emotions before you like, you know, and I just like the last couple of days, I've been like, okay, what's going to happen next? Because somehow something is going to make this better. Like, and I know something will happen. Like, but I feel like I'm on the edge of my seat sort of waiting for news.   Michelle (36:37) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   Mm-hmm. Yep.   Shea Bart Andreone (37:00) and that is familiar to me for like, you know, all the waiting and the waiting and the waiting of like, well, what's going to happen? Something is going to happen. Something exciting at some point. And you might have some pretty upsetting moments along the way, but something is going to happen.   Michelle (37:21) Yes, I actually remember hearing, I don't remember where it was, but it was a rabbi who said that there was like a saying that everything in the end works out. And if it's not working out or everything in the end is good. And if it's not good, it's not the end. And I'm like, I love that. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (37:36) at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I definitely feel that way.   but we get like, it's so global. It's so like, you know, whatever your politics are, you can feel like, shoot, you know, that happened. You know, like, we feel this universally, like many, many times, and it shifts, things shift. And then, yeah, and the story ends.   Michelle (38:03) They do.   Yes. Yeah. Things definitely shift. I'm also kind of into Kabbalah right now, like, cause it's very similar to quantum physics. And I love that, how Joe Dispenza talks about that. But I find that a lot of like ancient traditions teach about, and these are things that aren't necessarily, you don't need to see them as like a religion per se. It's actually a way of life. It's almost like a science of life. And they talk about how, things do come up.   It is really for your soul to evolve. And sometimes those difficult things, like the second we react to them, then we sort of block ourselves off from the light and that like wisdom. But when we allow them, and this is, you know, they talked about it in Zen Buddhism, that's truly going with the flows. Like even when things are not comfortable, if you just allow for it to move and don't fight it.   with the non-resistance, then it actually helps to grow your soul, your spirit, your personality, your mind, your ability to handle things. It's pretty wild, but in some senses that   challenge   is what helps us. And the same thing if you look at a butterfly or even like a plant coming out of a seed and that hard shell and that fighting and that   challenge   of trying to get through. so it's painful, but they do it in that   That aspect of it, the difficulty, the challenge is really what helps us to become more of ourselves.   Shea Bart Andreone (39:44) Yeah, to get to the other side.   Michelle (39:46) Yeah, it's pretty wild. But like you said, it's universal. It could be applied to anything in your life. It could be applied to anything, to getting a job, to marrying the right partner. And it's very similar and also just any kind of challenges that happen in your life. And I've seen it so many times, just like you, like so many stories of people that had they looked at their history and said, okay, well, since I've never gotten pregnant,   Shea Bart Andreone (40:01) Yeah.   Michelle (40:12) before, like the one we just spoke about eight years of never getting pregnant, you could look at the history and say, based on the history and since it's been so long, that's going to probably be my future. And logically, it makes sense to think like that, but it's not necessarily the case for many people.   Shea Bart Andreone (40:15) Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah, and that belief of holding and hope, hope is like.   Michelle (40:35) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (40:38) That's such a challenging topic because it is the first thing to go, I think, when you're challenged and faced with a big hurdle to overcome. It's hard to think you can hold on to any sort of hope, but that's pretty much the key.   Michelle (41:00) Yeah, it is. it's so interesting that it's so hard because the journey by itself, you're also faced with a lot of professionals that are giving you stats and numbers. And sometimes when you go into that, that's like a hope killer. It'll immediately say, well, I guess you can't really do it because look at your numbers are terrible. And based on this, it's just not possible for you. And so many people still conceive despite that and have healthy   children, know, births. So it's interesting how also the journey, the fertility journey just happens to be one that you're faced with a lot of hope killers in general. And so having to really stay grounded and really stay close to that desire and keep that like in your heart.   is very challenging. and you mentioned something that was actually really powerful. And I think that that is something that everybody should be given as a resource is just community connecting with people that know exactly what you're going through. And having that support is tremendous. And it's just nowadays, it's getting better than it used to. I feel like it used to be worse. Now we have social media.   We have lots of groups, we're connecting. And I think that that's huge. And I think that people who go through miscarriages doctors should be required to give them resources because you're dealing with a traumatic event and then you're sent home. And I think that that is not right. It's, it's like unethical to not provide support for people going through that.   Shea Bart Andreone (42:44) I agree, and I think that is a big flaw in our medical community, like our medical world. takes, I mean, I don't want to be, put anybody in boxes, but the majority of the people who become doctors are very cerebral and understand the logistics of the physical body and don't always necessarily take into account the emotional side.   Michelle (43:13) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (43:14) I would say most for me of the doctors that I have seen don't handle the emotional stuff very well. And I think we're learning that mental health is such a massive, massive element that cannot be ignored and needs the attention. And I do think when you said it's getting better community wise, it is, from what it start like...   There, know, hundreds of years ago and in other countries still today, community is everything surrounding people. And I would say Western medicine has, you know, unfortunately kind of cut that out. And like even in other countries, I think it's France where you're, once you have a baby, you're, you're provided with physical therapy for the woman who gave, you for you as a woman.   Michelle (43:49) Yeah, it's just true. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (44:12) You're given attention to heal yourself. And here we're sent home. You just had a baby. Bye. You're good. Not even 24 hours of any instruction. If you adopt a baby, you have to go through many, many, many hours of training. But on the other side, if you just birthed your own baby, you're sent home. Good luck.   Michelle (44:20) Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (44:39) So yeah, would say lack of community is still huge. And yes, you can find that online, but...   Michelle (44:49) Right. It's not the same as actually having a physical community.   Shea Bart Andreone (44:52) Yeah, and we still don't provide that for each other. And there's no wonder to me why doulas and midwives and lactation consultants and postpartum doulas are in such high demand. And unfortunately, that's a luxury.   Michelle (45:13) Mm-hmm. Right, right. It's a luxury and it's expensive. Not everybody can afford it.   Shea Bart Andreone (45:17) Yeah, but I understand the need for it. It makes perfect sense to me because it's like we're thrown into this dark tunnel without any light provided. It would be nice for someone to sit by your side and tell you how it's going to go. And yes, mothers and sisters and friends can do that to an extent, but yeah, it feels like there's a need.   Michelle (45:21) Yep.   Shea Bart Andreone (45:47) And yes, you can Google anything and you will find out.   Michelle (45:51) It's not quite the same. Actually, if anything, it gives you more anxiety. It's so important. And I think that it's true. I, as you're talking, I'm like, this is basically the building blocks of society. Like if you have a good foundation that's done with love and wisdom and carries on like traditions and history that people have learned from and can teach it. I mean, it feels like almost there's a gap because   Shea Bart Andreone (45:54) Yeah.   Michelle (46:21) It used to be that way really back in the day. And then there was this gap with industrial age and we've sort of gotten more separated and now we're thirsting for it. And there is a very big demand for that.   Shea Bart Andreone (46:35) Yeah, yeah. So that I, you know, not that a book can can cover that, but I feel like the aspect of why I chose to write this is just if it could help one person not feel as alone as I felt before I started finding these people. That's the goal because   I just, think even people who can find access to other people sometimes are afraid to like make that like leap to go find a support group or talk to other people. Like, you know, I have a friend right now, a very close friend dealing with cancer and she has three kids and there are so many groups available to them to...   Michelle (47:25) I'm sorry to hear that.   Shea Bart Andreone (47:33) speak to others who are dealing exactly with what they're dealing with, but they don't want to go. Yeah. I, you know, whatever way someone can find that community, whether it's through a podcast or, you know, or a group in the park or a Facebook group or, you know,   Michelle (47:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's so personal.   Shea Bart Andreone (48:01) or in a book, just hope for people that they find people to connect to so they don't feel alone.   Michelle (48:09) Yeah. I love that you wrote this book. think having stories is so powerful and just knowing these true stories and that people went through them and then you can relate to the challenges and then you can see how it ends for some people. I think that it's so powerful not to feel alone. I think that that's the big key is just not feeling alone. And like you said, the key is hope.   So for people who are listening to this, and I'm sure a lot of people are going to be wanting to look at this book right now, how can they find the book? How can they find out more about you?   Shea Bart Andreone (48:44) My website is sheabartandrioni.com and the book is available on Amazon. It's also available in certain bookstores. You can walk into your local bookstore and order it through them if they don't have it. And the book is called Carry On and the subtitle is True Stories of the Heartbreak and Wonder of Trying to Start a Family.   Michelle (49:15) Well, first of all, I really enjoyed this conversation with you today, Shay. This is really so heartfelt and it just, it was so symbolic of like the power of the human spirit and going through that and just everything that you shared today and opening up and I really appreciate you coming on. I really, really enjoyed   this conversation with you   Shea Bart Andreone (49:36) Thank you. Thank you. was nice to meet you.   Michelle (49:40) same. And also just for the listeners, if you guys want all of the links that Shay just mentioned are going to be in the episode notes, so you don't have to memorize everything that you just heard. You could just go back to the episode notes. So thank you so much for coming on today, Shay.   Shea Bart Andreone (49:55) You're most welcome.  

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Kelly Meehan of @spiritbabymedium discusses her new book,'Notes from a Spirit Baby Medium,' and explores the themes of intuition, spirit baby communication, and the importance of community in the healing process. She emphasizes the connection between past experiences and intuition, the mystical journey of conception, and how babies communicate with their parents. The discussion highlights the significance of understanding one's own energy and the role of community in fostering healing and connection. In this conversation, we explore the profound connection between emotions, consciousness, and the external world. We discuss the importance of self-awareness, the journey of awakening, and the challenges of navigating personal healing while supporting others. Our conversation also delves into the complexities of grief and loss, particularly in the context of miscarriage, and highlights the significance of spirit baby communication as a resource for healing.   Takeaways   Kelly's new book focuses on spirit baby communication. Intuition is a natural instinct that everyone possesses. Past experiences can hinder one's ability to trust intuition. Community plays a vital role in healing and connection. Babies are evolving and communicate with their parents. Frequency affects conception and the energy of babies. Meditation helps in understanding and connecting with intuition. Awareness of one's own energy is crucial for personal growth. Our consciousness can impact the world we perceive. Awakening can happen suddenly, like a light switch. Navigating personal healing requires setting boundaries. Grief and loss are unique experiences for everyone. Self-compassion is crucial during times of loss. Presence and connection are vital in supporting others. Emotions dictate much of our health and well-being. Meditation can aid in processing grief and loss. Spirit baby communication offers a unique healing perspective.     Guest Bio:   Kelly Meehan is a healing visionary, author of Notes From A Spirit Baby Medium - Everything you need to know about spirit baby communication, a birth advocate, and a holistic mother to her sons Rain and Forest. Her loving support and teachings focus on spirit baby communication in conception, energetic fertility wellness, intuitive health with medical intuition, pre-birth pregnancy communication, and sacred grief support in all areas of birth loss(miscarriage, stillbirth, termination & newborn to toddler). Kelly understands how to listen to the unseen and deeply felt world of spirit baby and conscious parenting.   Kelly shares her newest published book *Notes from A Spirit Baby Medium- Everything you need to know about spirit baby communication*This insightful book explores Spirit Baby Communication 101, testimonials and real messages from spirit baby, and how to bring intuition & psychic self awareness into your conception, pregnancy, and or healing birth loss. Available for purchase NOW! Amazon & Ingram Spark.   Kelly is the creator and host of SPIRIT BABY RADIO podcast with over 200 episodes by the end of 2024. She has been in the media on birth related and spiritual podcasts and radio shows as a guest expert, being invited and attending over 40 online global summits with topics such as: fertility, pregnancy, grief, and spirituality. She has been featured in Blogs and magazines, and articles.  She has been on a TV Show (Nighttime Prime) Nick MOMS sharing her work.     Websites:   https://www.newearthchildren.com https://www.spiritbabyacademy.com   Social Media:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/spiritbabymedium/ Facebook:Spirit Baby Medium/Medical Intuitive Facebook:  SPIRIT BABIES: Conscious Conception, Intuitive Pregnancy, & Motherhood Facebook: The After Life of Spirit Baby- Healing, Connections, & Love Twitter: @SPIRITBABYRADIO YouTube:www.youtube.com/@spiritbabycommunication   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast, Kelly.   Kelly (00:03) Thank you for having me again.   Michelle (00:05) I'm so excited to have you back. first of all, congratulations on your new book.   Kelly (00:12) Yay, thank you. Do want me to tell you the title? Yes.   Michelle (00:15) Yes. Tell us the title and tell us all about it. You've been on the podcast before. If you want to give us kind of like a brief background for people who are hearing you for the first time and haven't heard the podcast before, I would love for you to share your background and then also talk about your new book.   Kelly (00:26) Yes.   Yeah, thank you. As always, I love Michelle and her work and yay. And I remember when you were writing your book, I was like, it was motivating me. was like, we're kind of like near each other, but then yours came out and it was awesome. And then I'm like, wait, where's my book? And so I'm Kelly. I go by Spirit Baby Media, medical intuitive and mentor. And I support that conception and pregnancy, birth loss in many different psychic energetic ways.   Michelle (00:37) I love Kelly!   you   Kelly (01:03) And my new book is called Notes from a Spirit Baby Medium, Everything You Need to Know About Spirit Baby Communication. And yeah, what else are we sharing? What do you want to know?   Michelle (01:15) Okay, let's talk about it all. Let's talk about first of all, what intuition is how you connect with it and how you've kind of like, figured out that you have that.   Kelly (01:27) Yeah, I love it. I actually I'm not going to divulge too much of this. I share a story in the beginning of the book on what brought me into the work. And it is a really fun story. And was like, Whoa, it's there. And so really, basically, I've always had extra sensory perception. I was born very different. Not only was it traumatic. I know we all have very traumatic, but sometimes in the trauma, you know, you work harder as the infant to be in the world. And sometimes it does open up other   levels of perceptions and abilities. And I didn't really fully discover that until I was a teenager. I feel like puberty is a very big time of expression. Puberty, you know, we can even go into like moon paws, I call it menopause, like these big, you know, shifts in our physiology, but also into our consciousness. And I just had feeling, perceptions, and it was nonstop after that until today. And I brought it.   my energetic psychological background, brought it into the energy of children and babies and supporting, again, the psychic, the energetic, the spiritual in therapeutic and loving ways. And the book has been written over a decade of my heart in the work. It's like, what have I seen? What have I known? And spirit baby communication is a term, but also,   There's not a lot of books now more after 2020. I feel like there's way more information. But before that, there really wasn't a lot about the before life. And I thought I've been writing the book for a long time and I go into the really the great mysteries because it's not like here is the here's the secrets of the before life, right? It's just like the afterlife of death. There's things that we feel and know because I do feel like it is inside us. There's a wisdom inside us that   Michelle (03:10) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (03:19) we are always in relationship with. my mission is to share that. And you just talk about intuition, it's all connected to that because we are naturally instinctually intuitive beings. And we can bring that in any part of our lives, whether in conception, outside of conception. And it's very valuable because we're all born too. We're all, my often joke is you were once a spirit baby being too. we don't, right?   Michelle (03:42) Mm-hmm.   I love that. That's great. It's true.   Kelly (03:49) Nobody thinks about that, but like, you know, let's say someone's on a fertility journey and they're struggling. Have you ever looked at your own birth into the world? Most people would say no. I don't know. My mom says it's good or she didn't like it or I wasn't breathing or she had birth loss before me or after and like, whoa, those are big things to the foundational formation of your reality and the consciousness of your parents in those times.   Michelle (03:59) Right.   Kelly (04:18) through loss, through struggle, through whatever, and they seep through, right? And so, yeah, remembering we were once all spirit baby beings and we come into this world and many of us, you know, looking to deepen that connection, like where are my children? I'm ready for that next level. And then I feel like then, know, Michelle, then the lessons begin. You know, there's, I don't think it's ever easy.   Michelle (04:35) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Kelly (04:45) You know, like some people say, I guess it's all your perception of ease, right? Because having children is a huge heart commitment. It's not, you know, just, I don't think it's nonchalant. I think it's something powerful in in-between worlds that we bring life into this world. And that's something to reflect with too. It's incredible. And sometimes it takes longer for some people. And some people are still working towards it, you know?   Michelle (05:12) For sure. And I was thinking while you were talking, there's just so much we're not conscious of. I think about that, like when it comes to intuition, it's just that we all have it. It's built in. It's kind of part of our working. it's part of what made us. It's that connection to why we're here.   but we're so not conscious of so many things and we're not conscious of things that can actually provide us empowerment.   Kelly (05:43) No, and I blame culture, society, and subconscious programming. I have to laugh. We have to laugh sometimes because it could be very serious and there's a lot of fear. But I know me and Michelle, talked before, we're very optimistic, and even beyond that for the future that...   Michelle (05:51) Yeah.   Kelly (06:03) people will be intact with trusting their intuition more and more. And it's a really beautiful thing because your intuition is your own. It's not my intuition. Right? It's like, and that's the beautiful intelligence of just being alive and having a body is that we get to use our energy and connection with it in different ways. And sometimes we need to really slow down and be in the quiet, right?   Michelle (06:13) Yeah.   Kelly (06:27) through different practices to find our way, right? Especially when it's noisy, noisy life, noisy town, or maybe noisy city, noisy even upbringing, or maybe there's old energies that are noisy as well. But intuition is, to me, is a basic instinct. It's just like, yeah, like there, and you...   We do all use it all the time. Even if people feel like, I don't know if I use it. I'm like, you can distrust it and ignore it, but it's still there, right?   Michelle (06:57) Yeah, for sure. Without a doubt. I feel like we all remember a time where we didn't listen to it and it was something important. We all remember those times. We're like, I knew it. I knew it and I didn't listen. And of course we remember it it was such a strong lesson. We felt it and we're like, my God.   Kelly (07:07) Yes. Yes.   I think those are good when they happen. You know why? Because then it goes, you go, my gosh, like, see, like I told you so. And then you get to go, I feel like we get to stop and pause and have that awareness. And awareness is everything. And then almost to me is like creating a map of it, like a design.   Like, that's that connection and let's see what happens. And then you may be playing around with fear and intuition for a little bit to find the differences, which is very natural. But once we get really clear on ourselves, which is really through embodiment practices, through really healing our old traumas and our wounds, especially with parents, mother and father energies are so big because we get from that and we're like sifting through and finding where we are. And in that, you know,   Michelle (07:55) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (08:02) I pride myself in my intuition and I say that with such my own reverence because I do feel like I'm very intuitive and there's no shame in that. And I feel like are there times where I'm unintuitive? There are times where I'm fearful, but not unintuitive. I'm always intuitive, but the fear, if I know, I know myself very well that when fear comes up and there's sometimes, you know, I've managed it where it's fleeing these days.   Michelle (08:18) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (08:32) But sometimes big things will come in and I'm like, that sucks. I have to say it. I'm going, ooh, that's an unwinding. was like, ooh, this is big. And sometimes it has a lot to do with our, actually all the time it has to do with our past. Because present time, there's nothing wrong in the present time. And so, you know, it's like, learning the difference. And I do talk about that in my book, On a Conception Journey, Pregnancy Journey.   Michelle (08:36) Yeah.   Yeah, right.   Kelly (08:59) healing through lost journey, but I just think basic human nature journey, you're born, you're in a body, you were a baby being, it's like, you know, we're coming into re-remembrance more than anything with it. And that's great. And again, like you were saying, like, yeah, like, I've had times growing up where I could have been in bad situations, you know, when you're like in your 20s, like.   let's go party or do this. then something always shifted me and then something weird would happen. And I was like, whoa, what is that? So it also is very automatic pilot too. Sometimes we're not getting that like loud sound. it's, when that happens, I go, wow, okay. I was like, wow, I'm an automatic intuitive pilot sometimes. And I love that because it just means I'm just connecting with nature and just being, right?   That feels important.   Michelle (09:54) Yeah, for sure. And also talk about connecting with your own intuition as a person who may not be used to doing that.   Kelly (10:03) So the biggest obstacle to trusting intuition is going to be your past, right? And the environment that you're in creation with. just like, you know, because think about it when we were little children, we were so pure and intuitive and everything was connected. But then we become a part of the world in a way where we take on our families loads and lessons and it can even go further back. And we do sometimes have to find our way back to it and move into what was always there.   Michelle (10:08) Mm-hmm. Like the memory.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (10:33) Right? So I think if somebody's saying, well, I'm not intuitive and I don't know what I'm doing, I'd say, are you grounded in your body even? And where is your body? Like, what is this vessel? And where is your own heart energy? Right? There's so many different ways we can take it. And then I think that hanging out with other people of like heart, like mind is infectious. And it will change our frequency and vibration to be in those spaces.   Michelle (10:41) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (11:00) So communities, this is the future forward energy is all about community. Even I just presented on an energy lecture for fertility community and the women were just amazing because it's like they have that synergistic connection and they were more connected than they probably realize, right? Because that's what we do. We may not even realize it. And I love that because it makes life more spontaneous and but also we're relational. We want connection.   Michelle (11:02) Yeah, this is true, 100%.   Mm-hmm.   Right.   It's true. it, I feel like when you combine energies, just multiplies the vibe.   Kelly (11:38) Yes. Yes.   Michelle (11:40) And when you are going through, you know, I'm going to give you an example. have one of my patients and it happens sometimes where it takes a really long time for them to conceive and they struggle and they go through IVF and then that doesn't work. And I had one actually recently who after finally, after a year and then some of coming to me, she finally spontaneously got pregnant.   but she had connected with her spirit baby because she got these crazy signs that were insane. I'm going to eventually have her on the podcast once she gives birth because I want her to get through it and then have her come on so she could tell the story. but so I have people going through that, but like before you even get to that point,   It could be so daunting. And then you're just wondering why is this not happening? So I know for every individual, it's very unique, but I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like why sometimes it gets derailed. It eventually happens, but why it can get derailed for so long. And is that something that connects with the spirit of baby's timing or what are your thoughts on that?   Kelly (12:52) There's probably a lot of different answers for that one, right? Because everybody has their own connection and journey. And it is quite baffling when you're like, deepening and working and then all of a sudden, wow, what just happened? And I think it's pretty even more profound that she actually received communication and that she listened. Yeah, you gotta tell me when this episode comes because I'm so curious.   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   She got crazy communication. Some of the stuff was so insanely, it was crazy. She'd get bottle of wine. It was a name that she just knew that it was going to be the name and then she saw the name on TV and then she'd get a bottle of wine with that name and it's not a typical average name.   Kelly (13:29) Yeah.   Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (13:34) And it was a girl's name and she knew it was going to be a girl based on that. And even when she got pregnant, she was like, I know it's going to be a girl. She told even the doctors like, whatever, I know it's going to be a girl. And it was a girl. It was just so insane and like really amazing. she kept seeing that before she even conceived. And she kept seeing that also when she had her failed retrievals and she was going to do another retrieval. And that's when she conceived naturally, just spontaneously. But it's   Kelly (13:41) Bye.   Yeah.   I love that. Yeah.   Michelle (14:03) know, it kind of defies the odds because you're like, well, I don't have any proof right now. And I can base it on my history and say, how's, how's this possible? How would this happen? But then it does.   Kelly (14:17) This is where I'd say, yeah, this is where I'd say some things live in the realms of mysticism, right? Especially with baby. And I know I've seen stuff like this happen before where it's like the struggle, the struggle, the struggle, and then pushing with intervention and all of a sudden baby comes naturally. And I've seen this with a few different women over the years. And it's like, it blows them away and they're so confused and everything comes down to frequency.   Michelle (14:44) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (14:44) And when I use the term frequency, every single person is set in tone to a certain frequency. And we can even look at it as though we have a sound to us. And you know this because think about people that you meet and you're like, do not get along with them or they don't even see you because your frequencies are different radio stations. And there's nothing wrong with that. And babies are coming in, they are coming in more evolved.   Michelle (14:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Right.   Kelly (15:08) And I'm not saying that the mother or father are not evolved enough, but there's something in the energy field from the history, sometimes from ancestors and the past that is still in clearing. And sometimes it has nothing to do with the mother or the father in a sense, but also has to do with the baby. But also sometimes it's just one side of the lineage of the energy in the family without blaming anybody. There's a lot of parts to that. And I feel like   when we can build a communication practice that feels connected and sometimes babies will just come in as that. It's just like, I'm coming in, please listen to me. I'm gonna send you signs, I'm gonna like throw it in your face. And some people, by the way, you know this, some people would still ignore it, right? It's like, so I suspect a lot of the women that I meet, especially over the many, years, oftentimes miss the sign symbols.   Michelle (15:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Right. Yes.   Kelly (16:04) that are coming through and they'll say something and I'm like, you literally just told me, I don't know if you realize that, that is your baby communicating. It was like, whoa, really? Because we're looking for something really big, right? And you can get those big signs, but you're gonna have to go deep into your multi-dimensional self. You're gonna have to really cut away this reality in a way that is gonna let your own energy grow and see the very many possibilities.   Michelle (16:34) Yes, key.   Kelly (16:34) And if you can't, it's okay. I have a friend who sometimes I talk to her and she's like, I don't know what you just said, right? So I'm like, yeah. I love her and it's just like, but it's so honest. Yeah. And this is the story of my life. I'm starting to get used to that because I just got into this massive rant yesterday with my husband and he's just like looking like, okay.   Michelle (16:46) I can relate to that.   Kelly (17:02) I was like, I know it doesn't make sense, but I was like, it's hard to put the energetic frequency vocabulary into this earth body and knowledge. It's almost like it feels a lot harder. I know many of you that are tuning in, are in communication more than you realize. Some will be very visual and feeling and auditory and others, it may be more dull. But what I do know is that babies do hear their parents. And so even if you're in...   I'm communicating one-sided or through a serenade, through song, poetry, through words, through journaling. Your baby hears you, 100%. And the whole part of trusting that is like, feel like babies are awakening parents to wake up to themselves, to know who they are. And so many women I see is like, especially when there's a miscarriage or later loss, right? You are literally being initiated into two worlds of energy. And there's a deep healing in that and it's...   It's not so scary. Yes, grief is just terrible and my heart goes out and we feel it, but something else is like cracking through. It's like people use the word bringing heaven to earth, right? How are we going to do that? How are we bringing the death space, the heaven space, the earth space all together in a way where there's a sense of understanding harmony and connection? Well, we are in many different ways and some would disagree, but you know, again,   the energy of the baby realms, not even babies, so much more advanced. They're in communication with us all the time and we just have to be open. I say listen, but I know listen is a challenging word, but it's true. It's like full on body-heart listening. How about that?   Michelle (18:41) It's like receiving really. That's how I see it. It's kind of like being in a receptive place where I feel like sometimes you can get really used to speaking rather than receiving. But I'm talking about the subtleties too, you know, I think the subtleties are things that we don't often hear. And that's why I think meditation is so powerful because it gets us quiet enough to be able to receive, to almost kind of improve our antenna.   to receiving something outside of this world.   Kelly (19:09) I feel like, yeah, I love that. The three things I wanna say when you said that came up in my mind is like, really to achieve really good kind of spirit baby, fertile energy connections, conception struggles, is number one is knowing yourself in meditation, but not doing it without two and three. So two I would say is, do you have a healer, a guide?   coach or somebody that can actually work in love space with you. It's not just, I'm going to give you these instructions. Like I'm holding energy and love and connection with you because the practitioners and the healers, if their frequency is more elevated, guess what? You're not going to come in their space unless your frequency wants to move into that. And the third one would be people. I feel like community togetherness. I feel like those three is like literally just the best equation.   for healing and being heard and moving into your psychic space because think about it. You meet, you know, I know you meet many women as I do where they feel like I call, I'll call it right now a psychic loneliness. They have these extra sensory perceptions. They feel like they're alone.   Michelle (20:16) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (20:21) what am I doing with it? I feel like I'm just, it's not worth anything. And then you see the light or at least I do in them, they just start sparking up like, my gosh, you see me, you hear me, you know me, I'm allowed to speak this way. And then it adds to the journey, adds to their up leveling of their own inner frequency of co-creation really with life and where you want it to, where they're wanting to go and build those next parts, you know?   Michelle (20:47) Definitely. Well, I don't know if you know this, you probably know this, that I'm like, really love Joda Spence's work and I just came back from a retreat and every time I go, I learned something new. And one of the things the big thing that he really talks about is that   we hold a frequency, our emotions hold a frequency. And so when we have certain emotions, what we typically do is we wait for the outside world, which really is our manifestation of whatever is going on inside internally. When we wait for the outside world to shift so that our inside can feel better, but it's actually the opposite. It's kind of holding a frequency that we want or an emotion or a vibration that we want, and that will influence the outside world.   Kelly (21:33) you   Michelle (21:33) there's a lot of science that is showing us that our thoughts and our consciousness and our controlled consciousness and kind of like lasered perspective and perception can impact matter. And they're seeing that with there's a show that I was watching on Gaia. I forget what it was called. I think it was like the creative universe or something like that. But   Kelly (21:47) Hmmmm   Michelle (21:56) I remember the exact name. And they were talking about these professors at major universities talking about quantum physics and how we are so attached to an old paradigm of reality, which is way more materialist, but that is such a small perspective in that whenever we see something that's outside of that, lot of times scientists will dismiss that because it doesn't fall under their   Kelly (22:10) you   Michelle (22:24) perspective and what they have solidified as real. And so it becomes very dogmatic and we're not really seeing the truth of reality and the truth of reality does not just consist of the matter. It also consists of consciousness and the interplay between the two. And it's really fascinating. So basically our consciousness can impact the world in which we're seeing this,   Kelly (22:32) Mm.   Michelle (22:51) that our consciousness is perceiving. And not only that, this is starting to become realized in science. So this is what's crazy about it is you were talking about us reawakening, but it's not just within ourselves. We're actually starting to see this in the world.   Kelly (23:11) And I think we're gonna start seeing more. I that there's gonna be more, I call it almost like a light switch. Like some of us will be in the trenches like waiting around like, what's happening? I always have to laugh like, what's happening? Like are people, yeah, yeah. So what's gonna happen with a lot of the sleepers? It's gonna be a light switch and so all of a sudden people are just gonna be on. It's some of the people that slow. I feel like for me it's like,   Michelle (23:23) Yeah, there are the people that are sleeping when you're sleeping. You don't want to wake up. It's too comfortable.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (23:39) I felt, actually felt like an awakening at 15 years old. So I've had to go through the trenches for, along the trenches. I think more of the awakenings came in the 1950s even, but it's like, and then it's been a journey where it's like, am I allowed to speak this way in a dense world where they're like, no, I was like not allowed to speak this way. I was very shy, quiet, kept things very inward. And of course the, you know.   Michelle (23:42) Mm-hmm. You were one of the first early risers.   Kelly (24:06) as humanity keeps shifting, we have permission, right? It's like, all of a sudden we're allowed to own our own connections and we see it more and more, but it's gonna be like a light switch. But I love what you just shared. That's freaking amazing because when you said that, it made me think of like water. You know, people are doing these experiments again where they're like yelling at water and like, this like really, but like not just yelling at the water, but like giving your like dark energy to it and then connecting with, and you're just thinking.   Michelle (24:10) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah, you could see the crystals.   intention.   Kelly (24:35) my gosh, because when you think about we're made up of so much water, it's like, my gosh, like what is the impact on that? And you're right, there is the science spirit kind of, I always feel like they touch each other, but I still really feel they're supposed to be separate. They can intertwine with each other and science believes that they have to prove everything, but they can't, it's silly to me. And I feel like we're evolving out of that because everybody...   Michelle (24:39) Yep. Yeah.   Yes.   Kelly (25:04) has a different energetic perspective, but also we're in different frequencies. So we're not gonna have the same things. It's like medicine, it's like healing. Yeah.   Michelle (25:12) But it is a form of communication where it's going to awaken people who are very, or identify as more science-based minded. And so that it does include that group of people.   And I think that that's important as well, because for a while what happened was in this documentary, that one guy was saying that people used to believe in transcendence and they believed in this kind of like a, this spiritual world until science came along and then dismissed it. And then they said, well, that can't be true. And so that it kind of like took us away from that spiritual aspect. And it was kind of looked down upon from, an educational perspective. And then.   Kelly (25:25) Yeah.   Hmm.   Michelle (25:52) Now they're starting to see it. Now, of course, the idea is, that when consciousness is able to impact reality, there is no way you're going to fully be able to dissect that. It's just not going to be possible because it's constantly ever flowing, ever changing as much as your imagination. So you can never really that down. However, it still gives way to somebody who's completely asleep and does not.   Kelly (26:02) No.   Yes.   Michelle (26:19) look at the spiritual aspect naturally as we do to open up to it. So kind of like in some weird way, I believe that it's meant to be because it is one way to get everybody on the same page. And then eventually, of course, really awakened.   Kelly (26:30) Hmm.   Yeah, you say that I get this image of somebody wrapped up in their little blanket on the bed in their slumber. Like, hello, it's time to wake up. It's time to wake up. Let's shake things up. But some things do get really shaken up and other times you, you know, I've watched a lot of people involved and from afar and some more intimately. And it's quite fascinating because somebody that has future information at times or medical intuition, I want to fix everybody and heal them.   Michelle (26:46) Yes. Yes. It's like bright light.   Mm-hmm.   Yes. I totally understand you. I get you. I feel the same way.   Kelly (27:09) And then I have to step away and look and go, it's none of my business, right? Yeah. This is a good one. You tell yourself it's none of my business because we're not in charge of that. think that if we are evolving in our own space, then we ripple, right? And I know you know that it's like, that's the piece because I had to watch it. Yeah. Especially with family. Family is really hard, right? Family, you're just like,   Michelle (27:25) Yes. I think that's the hardest part of doing our work or being healers. It really is. Yes, that's the hardest part. I think that's the biggest challenge is like when you know what you know and you know that it can benefit somebody and you could be like, here, I'll give you the key. I know exactly what you need, but you can't say that. You can't until they're ready or they ask because   Kelly (27:47) It's very painful. I've even seen that with friends of friends and I'm like, just walk away Kelly, because you just, I'm like, can't, it's hard. We all have different levels of suffering. But then when you see people really suffering and you're like, ugh, like, yeah, it's like, okay. And then I have to go inward to my own suffering and go, what is that? What is the need?   Michelle (27:57) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (28:10) I know you want to help that person, but they are not there. They don't want that. And it's like, I just have to send that with love and just peace and not dwell on it. Right? Because it's like, that's all we can do.   Michelle (28:11) Right, exactly.   Yep, 100%. It's like, you're just aware of it. It's almost like being like a neat freak or like a personal organizer for a living and then going to a really messy place and you're like, okay, I just have to let go of that right now and just let it be.   Kelly (28:32) I wanna like, yeah, yeah.   Yeah, and then ground into our own self, create our own boundary and then just be like, okay, it is what it is. But I think I always wonder if that will be ongoing in my reality because of who I am. Like I just see things through a different lens and I know that and I've accept that. And I used to think it was really bad. And I used to think that something was wrong with me. And now I've moved into deeper levels of self love that I...   Michelle (28:42) Yeah.   Kelly (29:05) perceive things differently and it's okay if people don't understand it. It doesn't really matter. I say as long as we're just connecting with love and respect and presence with each other because we're not gonna all understand our own individual journey, especially in conception. know, some struggle, everybody struggles in a different way or even birth loss. Everybody miscarries in a different way. Yes, there's like, there's a topic, there's this, that, but the impact.   Michelle (29:10) Yeah.   Yeah, for sure.   That's true.   It's true.   Kelly (29:32) is gonna be very unique for each person. And it is a real deep spiritual calling when there's this conception struggle or there's loss. If we can just begin more to nourish it, even in the medical environments, to look at it, and I'm sure you do, from that more whole space, but also like, okay, you're a physical body, but how are you feeling in your emotions? Like, our emotions dictate so much of our health, you know?   Michelle (29:54) Yeah.   yeah, big time. And I think a big part of it is really not learning how to process them or having that shut down that aspect of it. know a lot of people, they go to the doctor, they miscarry in the hospital or the doctor says, just go home and go back to your life. And there's no, there's no in between. And I mean, their spouses aren't like,   skilled in therapy, like they don't know how to go through it either. And so it's kind of like, it's a really difficult thing because you're just like, now what, how do I process this? And part of it is really allowing yourself to digest emotions, just like you do food, you need to process it so that it doesn't sit and stagnate and then get stored in the body.   Kelly (30:42) I've had women speaking about miscarriage for a moment, because this is a very big topic I can get into because it's a lot of my specialty accidentally has come through in my work over decade. And what I noticed is that the biggest thing when a woman goes into has a miscarriage, the first thing I want them to go into is tenderness and self-compassion. And I say, you don't have to think about what the next step is. There's no plans. And women that don't slow down, I see they have a major   Michelle (30:50) Yeah.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (31:12) traumatic energetic wounds to heal. And it's okay, that may or may not happen, but it's more of like addressing, can you slow, because I, you know, a woman has lost, there's pain, there's feeling, I don't want to slow down, right? Maybe that's even it too. And everybody says I'm okay, I'm moving forward, but then I hear, you know, I've many times where, well my partner, especially male partner,   Michelle (31:14) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Kelly (31:33) They don't understand. I don't know if they feel anything or sometimes they feel so wrecked inside. They don't know how to deal with it. And I'm like, what is this what we're doing to the world of like, know, miscarriages of birth loss. There's even if it's the tiniest spec, there's a connection there and the body feels the separation of light. And there is no respect and women need to intuitively, right, wake up.   Michelle (31:38) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (31:58) to feel like they deserve that. But when we're in grief, we're not very clear when we're in literally the traumatic moment of grief. You're not like, okay, I'm gonna go, you know, do this, do that. I remember my recent deaths I've had to deal with. My friend was like, what do you need? And I said, I don't know. And she's like, well, let me do something. I'm like, I don't know. Because I was just so in the weeping.   Michelle (32:02) That's true. Yeah. It's true.   Yeah.   Kelly (32:25) the overwhelm, the visitation and the healing of it. And what she did was so communal, she brought me over homemade soup and bread. And I remember just not eating like at all because that's where I was in the beginning. And I'm just like, I guess I can try to eat. And it just lifted my spirits. I'm like, yeah, I need food. And just to have her there and just to share some memories and feelings. And it was like, this is what we're not taught, right? It's like, so.   Michelle (32:35) love that.   that's really beautiful. Yeah.   It's true.   Kelly (32:55) when there's a loss or birth loss, infant loss, child loss, and you're not in it, like maybe it's a friend or a family member, you have to step in. They're not gonna ask you anything. And I feel like, yeah.   Michelle (33:05) Right, that's true. And just really the presence. I think the presence is the medicine. That's the comfort.   Kelly (33:12) Yeah, and it's gonna happen. There's gonna be, know, loss is gonna happen, but it's again, I think addressing it. And I do have a whole chapter on miscarriage specific loss, but I also have something really cool in the book. I feel like I haven't shared this enough. I keep forgetting. There are seven QR code meditations in the book that you can actually click and listen live. Not live, but like it has music to it. And then they're made specifically through certain areas where one is pregnancy.   Michelle (33:30) Ooh, I love that.   Kelly (33:41) One is conception, I have a couples one you can use. I also have for fertility, like embryonic connection, miscarriage, I even have stillbirth, which is, know, later loss. I even have termination. There are specific meditations made that I feel like can just help provide that heart communication and just moving forward with spirit baby awareness. Yeah, I love that I was like, put that in there.   Michelle (34:02) Mm, I love that.   Kelly (34:07) And then it has a link too. if you can, you like, can't use the QR code. There's a link and it's like literally linked to my website and you'll have it forever and you can download them. And there are some favorites people are telling me right now, like, I really love this one. And I do it all the time. it's really fun to hear that because it was one of my favorite ones that I made like a long time ago. And it's interesting that people are so linked in and some are more visual feeling. It's a little bit of everything. Cause I know we have a little   you know, we all have different connections. And so that you get that in the book as well.   Michelle (34:36) It's true.   my God, I love that. Well, you guys got to check out her book. It is amazing. It is notes from a spirit baby medium, everything you need to know about spirit baby communication. It is an amazing book. I've read it myself.   I got to have an insider's peak before it came out. And and I just know Kelly comes and does her work from the heart, like fully full on from the heart and from the light. And really anything that she talks about, is aligned with light. So I highly recommend you guys check out her book.   Kelly (34:58) That's right.   Michelle (35:19) I highly recommend you guys check out her and for people actually who do want to check you out, how can they find you?   Kelly (35:28) So the best way to reach me is at newearthchildren.com or it's also spearbabymedium.com and my Instagram, a lot of people love connecting there is at Spear Baby Medium.   And you can, yeah, check it out. And there's even a book page so you can access the book. And it's offered through Amazon. It's offered through IngramSpark, which is global distribution Barnes and Noble. And you can get paperback or an ebook. And I just recently put on my website a PDF because I don't have ebooks. so if you're like, I want that PDF. There you go. I have everybody covered.   Michelle (35:59) Mm-hmm.   Perfect. And she also has an amazing podcast.   Kelly (36:09) Yes, thank you Spirit Baby Radio, which I'm coming up to 200. Yay. Thank you. Yay.   Michelle (36:13) Amazing. Congrats and congrats on the book and always amazing talking to you. And I'm so happy you got to come on today and thank you for joining us today.   Kelly (36:27) Yes, as always, Michelle, I love you. Thank you for having me. It's always fun. And I'm very excited to keep sharing the beautiful work, similar to what you do, bringing in that deep level of consciousness, healing. And I know you bring spirit baby energies into your space too. Thank you.   Michelle (36:44) Awesome. you.  

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Amelia Kelley @drameliakelley , a trauma-informed therapist, discusses her journey and insights into high sensitivity, coping mechanisms, and the impact of trauma on mental health. She explores the differences between empathy and compassion, the importance of understanding one's nervous system, and shares her personal fertility journey, highlighting the integration of holistic approaches such as acupuncture and herbal medicine. In this conversation, Dr. Amelia Kelley and Michelle explore the complexities of pregnancy loss, trauma, and the role of the nervous system in fertility. They discuss the importance of letting go of control and embracing spirituality, as well as the dynamics of being a highly sensitive person (HSP). The conversation delves into the benefits of body awareness and how it can aid in healing, while also addressing the challenges HSPs face in relationships and daily life. Ultimately, they highlight the adaptive nature of high sensitivity and its prevalence in the population, encouraging listeners to embrace their sensitivity as a gift rather than a burden.   Takeaways   Coping skills should be viewed as a lifestyle. High sensitivity is a genetic trait, not a flaw. Empathy can have negative health effects. Highly sensitive people require more alone time for regulation. Generational trauma can impact reproductive health. Understanding one's nervous system is crucial for coping. Holistic approaches can aid in fertility journeys. Stress and nervous system balance are crucial for fertility. Highly sensitive people (HSPs) experience the world differently. Body awareness can enhance healing processes. HSPs often respond more positively to therapeutic interventions. High sensitivity is an adaptive trait found in many individuals. Embracing sensitivity can lead to greater self-awareness and compassion.   Guest Bio:   Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, author, co-host of The Sensitivity Doctor's Podcast, researcher, and certified meditation and yoga instructor. Her specialties include art therapy, internal family systems (IFS), EMDR, and brainspotting. Her work focuses on women’s issues, empowering survivors of abuse and relationship trauma, highly sensitive persons, motivation, healthy living, and adult ADHD.    She is currently a psychology professor at Yorkville University and a nationally recognized relationship expert featured on SiriusXM Doctor Radio’s The Psychiatry Show as well as NPR’s The Measure of Everyday Life. Her private practice is part of the Traumatic Stress Research Consortium at the Kinsey Institute.    She is the author of Powered by ADHD: Strategies and Exercises for Women to Harness their Untapped Gifts (whichhas a corresponding online support group!), Gaslighting Recovery for Women: The Complete Guide to Recognizing Manipulation and Achieving Freedom from Emotional Abuse, coauthor of What I Wish I Knew: Surviving and Thriving After an Abusive Relationship, as well as Surviving Suicidal Ideation: From Therapy to Spirituality and the Lived Experience, and a contributing author for Psychology Today, ADDitude Magazine, as well as Highly Sensitive Refuge, the world’s largest blog for HSPs. Her work has been featured in Teen Vogue, Yahoo News, Lifehacker, Well + Good and Insider.   You can find out more about her work at https://www.ameliakelley.com.   Follow her on Instagram @drameliakelley   https://www.instagram.com/drameliakelley/   https://www.facebook.com/DrAmeliaKelley   https://www.linkedin.com/in/drameliakelley/   https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-your-corner       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Amelia.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:02) Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.   Michelle (00:04) It's so good to see you. So Amelia's had me on her podcast, the sensitivity doctors in the past, and I would love for you to share your background. I am really interested and very intrigued by what you do because it's something that we spoke about. I totally relate to. I love the fact that you've authored so many books and have such an interesting background. So I would love to have the.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:26) Hehehe   Michelle (00:30) audience hear you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:32) Sure. Well, I'm currently in my office. So I'm a trauma informed therapist, professor, and podcaster, which is how you and I met. And I've been in the field for 20 years now. I primarily work with trauma of various forms, but a lot of it is interpersonal trauma, relationship trauma, some issues with sexual abuse, some instances where I also work with per...   a lot of first responders, so cops, doctors, and also folks from the military. So I'd say that my work is kind of an intersection. I sometimes call myself an integrative therapist because just before our session, I was doing a yoga therapy session. I do everything from EMDR, brain spotting, yoga therapy, art therapy is actually my background, sand play therapy.   Michelle (01:02) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:27) I'm so into the brain too. I mean, I'm not, I would not say that my practice is comprehensive in neurofeedback. We do some minor interventions, but I love referring my clients to practitioners in the area to make sure that their brain health is on par too. And I also love referring to Carolina Clinic of Natural Medicine is my favorite in the area, but they do things like acupuncture and.   Michelle (01:40) Hmm.   Mm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:54) kind of holistic health, which I know really aligns with what you do. So, yeah.   Michelle (01:59) it's interesting because as you start to do anything, you start to find out how many different layers and different ways and methodologies that certain people respond to better than others. there's just so many different methods. And I think that some people just respond better to some.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:10) Right.   Right.   yeah. I think that's a great thing about coping skills. First and foremost, I love the idea of obliterating this idea that a coping skill is like work or that it's something that you only do when you're struggling. I think it's more of a lifestyle. And everyone is going to respond differently. Like I know I personally...   Michelle (02:35) Yes.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:41) water is very big for me. Like if I'm really stressed or I'm dysregulated, getting in hot water or cold water is very regulating for my nervous system. Whereas I have clients who the last thing they want to do when they're stressed or dysregulated is shower or get in water. It's actually one of the first things that they stop wanting to do.   Michelle (02:51) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:04) So it's so interesting seeing how we all respond differently, I think, in our own unique nervous system when we're under stress.   Michelle (03:11) Yeah, definitely. I find that also with my patients. mean, some people, be much more open to like things like meditation, other people, there's other ways to self soothing, which I call it, because ultimately, that's really what it is. So yeah, it definitely isn't work. sounds like work.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:20) Mm   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Michelle (03:30) but it's not work. think the biggest work is really the strategy and kind of figuring it out. But ultimately it's really there to soothe you at times that you feel overwhelmed.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:35) Mm-hmm.   Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.   Michelle (03:44) So let's talk about the sensitive person because I've always felt that that was something that I can describe myself as when I was younger. It was something that I felt I found myself more overwhelmed by noises, by certain people's energy than other people. And people would just be like, you're too sensitive or you focus on things too much. And   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:52) Mm   Okay.   Michelle (04:08) It was something that I realized, as I met other people like me. I was like, wait, this is kind of a thing. And then when I learned about it, that it really is a thing, I found it really interesting. And it also, I found it very comforting. So it's like, okay, I'm like, I'm not abnormal. Like this isn't crazy. Yeah. So I would love for you to talk about that. So I feel like a lot of people can relate.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Right, Mm-hmm.   Definitely, and I know my aha moment was a big deal to me. It was years ago now. I stumbled upon Dr. Elaine Aaron, who is kind of the pioneer of some of the modern research on high sensitivity on her documentary, Sensitive, the Untold Story.   And it was one of those light bulb aha moments that made so much of my life make sense. Interestingly though, when I dug a little deeper, she was not the of the originator of this. It was actually research done in the 80s on babies and their responses to different stimuli. Things like they had...   Michelle (04:59) you   Mm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:17) auditory stimulation with like a creepy face making sound. had light stimulation, physical stimulation. And what they found was that the babies who were more reactive, they were calling high reactive babies, you know, which down the road became high sensitivity. But the really interesting thing is that the researchers went and followed up with these babies who are now in their midlife, you know, they're in their   I'd say probably 40s at this point, 30s and 40s. And they're finding that those high reactive babies still are more reactive adults. And so this doesn't mean someone who's highly emotional or can't control their temper when we think of reactivity. It's more, what is your reaction to sensory input? And certain brains, it is genetic.   Michelle (06:07) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:10) So it's a predisposition. It is a genetic trait. It is not a diagnosis. It is not something to fix. It is rather something to learn from and grow with and manage and live life in that way. And so it's highly genetic. And for that reason, I'm not surprised I have kids who are definitely highly sensitive. And high sensitivity can express in so many different ways. It can look like   Michelle (06:10) you   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:39) hypersensitivity to medication, sensitivity to light, to sound, to being rushed to other people's emotions. That's a big part. The empathy piece is very strong. I think it's really important to understand the difference between empathy and compassion when we consider highly sensitive people. you, like when I say that, does that make sense to you? Do you want me to unpack that?   Michelle (06:52) Mm-hmm.   It does. mean, so what I'm perceiving in that is that empathy is kind of like almost giving more of your own personal energy to something versus just feeling compassion and understanding that another person's emotions or perspectives without almost taking it on. I'm not sure if I'm on or not.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:08) Mm-hmm.   Well, mean, I think that's we can all define it differently, but I guess if I was going to scientifically define compassion and empathy. So empathy is our ability to feel what someone else is feeling. We all tend to know that definition. However, the interesting thing is that empathy has a negative impact on your immune health and it increases inflammation. Right. And so when we consider the fact that highly sensitive people   Michelle (07:34) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Well, that's interesting.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:56) have more active mirror neurons, which means the areas of their brain designed to plan social interactions, problem solving around social interactions, and even something as simple as, as a highly sensitive person, one of my ways to decompress is to watch like trashy reality TV at night. And so I will find myself as I'm watching these dating shows, smiling with the contestants.   Michelle (08:15) Yeah   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:23) or frowning with them. Sometimes I kind of laugh when I catch myself doing it. As a highly sensitive person, those areas of the brain are so much more active. And so it does make us have higher levels of empathy. But when you consider the fact that that can negatively impact your body, if you don't have enough boundaries around them, empathy is pro-social. It helps us get along, but also too much can be draining.   Michelle (08:32) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:50) And so compassion is actually kind of the anecdote to empathy because compassion is centered around the desire to act or help. And so this, when we think of self-compassion, the act of speaking to yourself kindly is an act. So you empathize for yourself, I feel bad today because I made a mistake. Just thinking of an example. The compassion is,   Michelle (08:50) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:18) I'm going to choose to speak to myself kindly and with love because that will be curative for me. Whereas if you stay in an empathy response, you just continue to feel bad about whatever mistake you made, right? And so for highly sensitive people, it's exponentially important to lean into compassion and we can't all go out and save the world all the time. So sometimes this looks like well-wishing meditation.   Michelle (09:24) Done it.   Got it.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:46) processing with other like-minded people, those can be ways to express compassion that doesn't all have to be going out. And I remember, do you remember the movie Free Willy?   Michelle (09:58) yeah, but I don't remember if I saw it or I don't remember the actual movie. wait, though. It was the one with the whale, right? Yes. Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:06) Right, it was fiction, obviously, but as an HSP or an HSC at the time, a highly sensitive child, when that movie was over, I was destroyed at the thought of all these whales in the world who need help. And so my gracious parents who encouraged my sensitivity helped me find an organization where could adopt a whale. So it's like, and I mean, who knows what's happening. We probably paid $20 and...   Michelle (10:29) that's cute.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:34) I've adopted a whale, who knows, but it was the act of taking my empathy response and putting it into action with compassion that was curative for my little highly sensitive child heart.   Michelle (10:34) Yeah.   Hmm.   That's beautiful. actually really love that. And it also makes you feel like there's more purpose in the feelings that you're having. You're kind of taking the feelings and creating purpose with it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:57) Absolutely. That's such a way of putting it.   Michelle (11:01) And one thing too, that I was thinking about when you were talking about being highly sensitive, which I could tell you right now, I 100 % am self-diagnosed. The nervous system, I think to myself about the nervous system and possibly that having something to do with it, just having a more heightened sensitive nervous system.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:09) Mm-hmm   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (11:22) Besides obviously the antidote and kind of like using or acting or doing, to translate the empathy, but as one part of regulating the nervous system, learning to manage the nervous system, doing things like you said, like when you get home, take a shower, do something that really connects with your nervous system, I feel like is a really great tool. And figuring out what that is, is that something that you often look into?   Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:49) Absolutely. Because if you think about just a handful of the questions that I was posing that help you identify if you're highly sensitive, a lot of them have to do with nervous system response. highly sensitives are more responsive to caffeine, drugs and alcohol, pain tolerance, hunger cues even, are more, you know, felt more intensely. So with HSPs, the nervous system, specifically the limbic   system is more active. And this is something that can be seen on actual scans of HSP brains. It is. It's wild. so I was having a really interesting conversation with Michael Allison, who is one of the instructors for the Polyvagal Institute. And he was talking about, I don't think if he really fully bought into the HSP thing, I think he sees everything through the Polyvagal world.   Michelle (12:20) Mm-hmm.   That's so interesting.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:48) And which I totally appreciate. There's different ways to look at our nervous systems. But he said something when we were talking about highly sensitive that really struck a chord to your point about the nervous system. He was saying when our nervous system alerts danger and for him that means the vagal break is off and the vagus nerve is overactive, the heart rate is up, fight flight. When we're not feeling safe.   It's usually because we're attending to something we think we need to attend to because it's out of sorts. And so the highly sensitive person, a look on your face could alert danger to me. Like someone seeming off or upset or concerned could signal that. And so for the highly sensitive person,   Michelle (13:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:42) They need more time and research has shown up to two hours of unstructured alone time per day is most quote prescribed for highly sensitive. And so the reason being is that our baseline is higher all the time. And so we need more things to regulate the nervous system so that sounds and things and emotions aren't pulling us out of our safety zone so quickly.   Michelle (13:49) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Mm-hmm.   my God, that makes sense on so many levels. I always felt like I needed, I need alone time. Like after a while, I just need to be by myself. need quiet. I need peace. And I totally understand what you're saying. And then also what's interesting is I remember when I was younger, always being afraid, like if somebody was mad at me or like, I would kind of feel a tone of like, my God, are they mad at me? And I get like really upset. And now I had to like learn to   Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Michelle (14:42) just be like, okay, it's not that big of a deal. Maybe they were having a bad day, you know, sort of speak to myself on that, but that makes sense. And then I noticed that with my daughter, if sometimes I'll be busy and I won't respond with like a, you know, a full response, I'll be like, okay, okay, we'll talk later or whatever. Are you mad at me? And I always tell her, believe me, I would tell you I'm pretty clear about like what I'm happy about and not happy, you know.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:52) Mmm.   Hmm.   Right.   Michelle (15:07) And, but it's interesting. She'll kind of read between the lines with me. And she's like me, she just took after me. So it's kind of, yeah, so she's 19.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:12) Mm   How old is she, I ask? OK, so she's older. I was going to say, I know a great workbook, but it's for younger kids. yeah, she definitely, especially if you are too, it wouldn't surprise me that she would also be highly sensitive because it is so genetic.   Michelle (15:23) Yeah.   And she got like that more as she got older when she went to college than even before, for some reason. I don't know if maybe because she has a lot more going on or, she's starting to regulate on a different level, her nervous system. Cause I think that coming from home, things shift and change.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:39) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Totally. mean, think it's research has shown that some high sensitivity traits, you know, can be very present in childhood, but then there's other different types of traits that become more expressed later in life. But   Michelle (16:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:06) I also beg to say, let's look at the external factors. You look at someone who is a highly sensitive child who didn't have to raise children, work a job, manage a home. So when you just keep adding more to your exactly, that can make those traits become more expressed too, I believe.   Michelle (16:16) Yeah, right.   Yep, responsibility. Yeah, for sure.   So I want to actually take this into your own journey, because I know you've had your fertility journey, because a lot of listeners, are going through the fertility journey. And I know a lot of people just based on my own clients and patients that are very sensitive and highly sensitive as well.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:38) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (16:48) I work a lot with them on, I don't know if you've ever heard of the NADA protocol. It's really good for PTSD. NADA, it's used, it's, yeah, yeah. So NADA, and it's a protocol that they use on the ears. it's like a, it's a series of ear points that we use like altogether.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:54) No. I love learning new things. Tell me. NADA. I have nothing to write on. Okay.   Michelle (17:12) And it works on regulating the nervous system. And it actually works amazing on it's even had published studies on working with vets, people with PTSD, like really major PTSD. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's, it's really, really interesting. And, and also interestingly enough,   Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:23) I need a pen. Let me just grab one.   Do you use the mustard seeds or is it actual needles?   Michelle (17:33) So you could use the seeds. I use needles. I use needles. then some people, no, no, they're not mustard seeds, but they're seeds. And then some of the studies that were published, I think they even added electric stimulation. And what's interesting is it's not just really great for   Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:36) They're probably not called mustard seeds. I forgot what are they actually.   Mm-hmm.   cool.   Thank   Michelle (17:51) PTSD, but it's also really good for addiction. And interesting, if you think about the two, like what do they have in common? They're kind of like, it runs, they run on a loop. You know, it's this repeated either thoughts or behaviors. And it seems to kind of have that in common. Obviously it's two different things, but sometimes can cross over.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:56) wow.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   I love that. It's funny. It looks like you're on my podcast right now. So I'm like, let me take notes on what you're saying. You're so smart and knowledgeable in these areas. I love it. I will definitely check that out. I would be so curious if that's something that there are, like I said, a lot of veterans and addicts that I work with. And so I'm definitely going to look into that.   Michelle (18:16) So.   No, no, I know. It will...   I feel the same about you. it makes for a great conversation.   Yeah, definitely look into the studies. I think that that's, seeing the studies and seeing the numbers really makes a difference. And so that aspect of it is amazing. And also Joe dispense does work a lot of what he does helps tons of people with PTSD, like, they do scans and study the brains. It's pretty impactful. Yeah. Yeah. So back to you though, I would love to talk to you about how you feel, your nervous system.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:47) Mm-hmm.   That's really neat.   Michelle (19:10) Like how were you able to figure out a way to balance yourself through the journey, knowing what you know, and how do you think it's impacted you on that nervous system level and like the trauma, because I know that it can be very traumatic, even though people don't often talk about it like that. It should be, it should be highlighted in that way so that more people have awareness around it because it really is a very difficult process.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:16) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (19:37) has even been compared to a cancer diagnosis. It's really significant.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:41) Wow. Well, and I actually have something about my story that integrates the two. So I think when I really look now and I understand my nervous system better, I think that the generational trauma that I was carrying with me into my reproductive years that I didn't understand that I didn't understand my high sensitivity. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't realize that that's what that was. I just thought.   I just felt too much all the time. What I think that was doing was that when I was ready to try to start having a family is that I had been in flight mode. And when people think of flight mode, they think of like running the coop. I had been in flight mode being overly productive. And I laugh because I'm still overly productive, but it's in a different energy now. It's in a completely different energy than it was then. But.   Michelle (20:34) Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:39) This flight mode, think what it was doing is it was putting my nervous system in a state, like you said on my podcast, where it was never able to rest. It was never able to replenish. so my cycle was totally dysregulated. I ended up, I don't know how detailed you want me to get, but I'm happy to share. OK, OK. So I started off, we had tried to get pregnant for a couple of years and it wasn't working. And at the time, I think about it,   Michelle (20:58) you can get as detailed as you need.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:09) I was in my doctoral program. I was working at a women's clinic and the methadone clinic and trying to start my practice all at the same time and just live life and be like a normal adult. And so we went the route of Western medicine at first. I love my doctor and he worked with me through the whole journey, but we tried Clomid and I got pregnant. But I think now that I know what I know about egg quality, thank you, Rebecca Fett. She's amazing.   Michelle (21:19) Bye.   Yeah, she's phenomenal. I know I've tried, but she like, she wasn't really doing them. Maybe she is now, but let me know if you get her. She's great. Yes.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:40) my gosh, I need to get her on my podcast. Let's like.   We're going to like, we'll just go not tap, tap, tap. Come on. now that I understand what I know now about egg quality, I think that the clomid forced an egg that really wasn't ready to be fertilized. And so we miscarried that baby. And that was the first miscarriage and definitely the most shocking and painful miscarriage. From there, did my, one of my, I think healthier   trauma coping mechanisms is research. And so I just dug in and I created this kind of like wellness plan for my husband and I had like printouts. What I didn't realize is that I was basically creating what Rebecca Fett recommends without realizing what in the world I was doing. And so I had us on a laundry list of vitamins and supplements and all these things. We got pregnant again, very.   Michelle (22:33) and   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:45) very luckily with our daughter, who is now nine. And then that was the end of that. was like, OK, that went OK. Maybe it was just like that first miscarriage. Lots of people have it, statistically speaking. Then we were trying for our second child. And I feel like that's when I really got introduced to the world that you're in, which is the Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture, because we   I think I had already started working with my acupunctures at that time. again, we were having a hard time getting pregnant. And so they put me on like the most disgusting tea, but it was some sort of tea regimen and these herbs. And I was doing really cool acupuncture to your point with like the little electrodes and all of that. And I did get pregnant again, but that time ended up being a molar pregnancy.   Michelle (23:26) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:42) which you know what those are assume or I don't know if you're listeners.   Michelle (23:46) Yes, I remember learning about it. haven't had any of my patients have that, but I remember learning about it actually in school.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:54) Right. So the trauma of the first miscarriage was, would almost call that like acute trauma, whereas the trauma with the molar pregnancy. So a molar pregnancy, for anyone listening who doesn't know, is when the sperm and the egg join and the DNA markers are not turned on. So no actual baby starts forming, but a mass starts to form. And your body thinks you're pregnant, and so it spikes your HCG actually above kind of average levels.   I thought I was pregnant with twins. was so sick. So I go in and I'm, I want to say eight, seven, eight weeks at that point that I thought and they scanned and there's no baby, which felt like a miscarriage, but it wasn't. But what happened after it was that I still had to do a DNC and then I had to do monthly HCG tests to make sure that my levels were dropping because if your levels of HCG go up at any point, have to   Michelle (24:26) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:52) do chemo. So this was this chronic six month period where we couldn't try again. And every month I was going in afraid for my health.   Michelle (25:00) Mm-hmm.   my gosh.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:05) Right. So that was a totally different type of trauma. And then we got pregnant again. And that one we lost at 10 weeks because it was a little boy with downs. And then we finally got pregnant with our son that we have now. But I would say during that journey of those miscarriages, that was when I really dug deep into   Things like I was saying, like really taking everything serious with Chinese herbalism, looking at what I was putting in my body, looking at what was around me, my stress level, mean, meditation, really anything I could to balance my nervous system. And to your point, I think the nervous system played a role finally in us getting pregnant with our son because I think when you were on my podcast, I told you that   Michelle (25:47) Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:58) I was doing all these things, it wasn't working, and then finally I did that, quite essential, fine, I give up. I'm not doing this anymore. I went to my acupuncturist and I said, just do stress this time. Don't do any of the fertility treatments, please. I just don't want to even think about it anymore. And then it's so obnoxious to say, but three weeks later we got pregnant.   Michelle (26:04) Mm-hmm.   It's not, it is, it's something that I'm, well, I'm not just, know why you're saying that because people are like, what the heck? Like, it's kind of like the just relax kind of thing. saying just relax is not helpful. That's why people are like, okay, well then how, you know, that's the how, like, how do I relax? so actually let's talk about that. Cause that, that is a big thing. That's a big thing.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:32) Right, right.   Right. Well, I I let go of the outcome. Yeah, I think for me, it was letting go of the outcome. And I think that allowed my nervous system to get back to a safer baseline. To your point about asking about high sensitivity, I think what used to be the stress was work and school. The stressor became the goal.   Michelle (26:52) Yeah.   Yes. You know, I just hadn't, an aha, but if you want to continue, I did, I just had an aha. It's like you're taking on the responsibility of the goal. You think that it's all up to you and you're taking that weight on your shoulders. And I think that that's what it is is, and, I'm kind of thinking back cause I had Dr. Lisa Miller. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's yeah, she's amazing. You would love her. And I think she would be great on your podcast. So put her down as a   Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:06) Which, what? Ooh, no, I wanna hear it.   Mmm.   Mm-hmm.   I've heard that name.   and a jotter down.   Michelle (27:32) as an option or somebody. She went through the fertility journey, but separately from that, she's also a professor in Columbia. I think you would love talking to her because you're a professor as well. And she's a psychotherapist and she is studying spirituality in the brain.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:41) good. Yeah.   that's interesting. Okay.   Michelle (27:50) It's fascinating. And so they found looking at, scans of brains and how they're functioning, where they're lit up, that spiritual people who are spiritual have different brains, their brains look different. And this could be the same brain of somebody who used to not be spiritual and then became spiritual. It doesn't matter. And what's interesting is, so this is my, as you were talking, not to interrupt, hopefully you're trained a thought, but   Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:05) Interesting.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (28:18) can come at life taking on the responsibility of every single part of our outcome and like fully micromanaging ourselves and bearing that weight or when we're spiritual, that means that we believe in a higher power or some kind of higher intelligence. We're relying on something else and not carrying all the weight. So we're just basically giving our intention out there, but, but also feeling safe enough. Like you said, safe, word safe.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:28) Thank   Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Michelle (28:46) to let go. So that was kind of my heart just came out.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:48) Hmm, absolutely. No, I love it. mean, the connection makes so much sense because and it kind of makes me think of why it doesn't have to be quote religion that someone leans into. It doesn't. It can literally be if you're someone listening who is an atheist and staunchly does not believe in a higher power, it could be energy. I mean, we can't there's no denying scientifically there's energy. mean, even   Michelle (29:01) Mm-hmm. No, no, it doesn't have to be religion.   Right?   True.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:18) plants have been proven to grow better when we speak to them because of the energy and probably the carbon monoxide, but like you're a carbon dioxide, but not monoxide. I'm not breathing carbon monoxide, but you can't deny energy. even if someone is not religious or I would say, I would want to ask her actually, does this hold true for someone who's not quote spiritual, but   Michelle (29:25) Yeah, yeah, yeah, dioxide. Totally. understood. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:44) who gives up things to the idea of energy. I want to ask her that.   Michelle (29:48) That's a great question. when you do have her on, let me know, because I'll be listening to the podcast.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:53) for sure. For sure. Thanks for the tip for the, I'll definitely check her out and reach out.   Michelle (29:57) Yeah, but it's fascinating. And I think to myself, I think that that might be that trusting in something else, trusting in an outcome or kind of releasing or relinquishing that burden and that responsibility. And that I guess that that was the aha is like taking on that responsibility of really trying to, take on the outcome, like as if you really have all of the responsibility and how it turns out and that burden and that feeling and that blame.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:06) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Now I'm having an aha. Well, yes, I'm having an aha because high sensitivity. So I was talking about the mirror neurons earlier and the empathy overload with highly sensitives. Highly sensitive people, we do tend to naturally take on the responsibility of other people's emotions. And we also, even one of the questions that Dr. Aaron poses is,   Michelle (30:29) Tell me. This is great. We bounce off each other really well.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:54) Do you know how to make people comfortable in a room? Like things like changing the lighting and the volume and the temperature in the room. I think even as a highly sensitive person, we kind of naturally take on the responsibility of the environment. And that's why some HSPs who are not high sensation seekers, who are just, you know, kind of more of the traditional introverted expression of it, they really get overwhelmed in social settings and they don't love hosting.   Michelle (31:19) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:23) because it's too much to micromanage. I'm a high sensation seeking HSP, so I do enjoy hosting and having people over at my home. However, the hours leading up to the event, I need quiet and calm. I've got like a hairpin trigger nervous system leading up to inviting people in my space, even though I love it. It's like this weird.   Michelle (31:24) you   Mm-hmm.   Hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:52) dichotomy. yeah, letting go of responsibility, think, releases the nervous system of a highly sensitive person as well.   Michelle (32:00) Yeah. And it's so interesting that you're saying that because like, I look back at my childhood, I was a really good imitator. And that just makes sense because you pick up on the little details of people's behavior and energy and you mirror that like literally.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:09) Mmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm so curious and envious because I'm terrible at accents. Like, terrible. Really? Mm-hmm.   Michelle (32:26) Yeah, I used to, I would do it even when I wasn't trying. I would start to take on like, I would do it on purpose and when I wasn't trying, like I would just pick up on like certain behaviors or certain like tones and things. And I would kind of like take on like the energy of friends that would have very specific ways of talking. And I would almost be like, like I would catch myself. like, that's weird. I don't want to do that.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:35) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   You're like, I don't want to look like I'm really imitating them. This might get awkward.   Michelle (32:55) For sure. But it's just so fascinating. and then you're talking also highly sensitive persons that they could also have glucose sensitivity. You were saying you were talking about the physical sensitivity, right? Like that sometimes it could be allergies or other things and it's not just emotional.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:06) Mmm.   Mm-hmm. Well, so if you think about, it's not that they're going to have more unstable blood sugar from a technical medical stance. It's that the highly sensitive nervous system can sense peaks and valleys more than someone who is not highly sensitive. So they might respond more to hunger cues and may feel more   Michelle (33:29) Mm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:39) panic or anxiety or stress in the state of hunger. So they may be more likely to be the person that reaches for something to re-stabilize glucose. But then you can see how depending on someone's metabolic health, that might not fit well into whatever their health goals are. So I think of my non- he's actually quite highly sensitive now, but my husband- I'm going grab water.   Michelle (33:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Got it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:08) Sorry. My husband, who is a little bit less sensitive and has a more stable metabolic system, when he's hungry, it doesn't cause as much distress.   Michelle (34:08) Sure.   Got it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:20) If that makes sense.   Michelle (34:21) a body awareness thing. because HSPs are probably much more aware of how their bodies feel because a, immediately feel it. And then that impacts their emotions or how they feel mentally. Cause a lot of emotions get processed and they're really felt in the body. think, a lot of times people don't realize that it's why somatic.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:39) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (34:43) work can be so beneficial. Have you looked into somatic work?   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:48) I do offer some forms of somatic work. I am not a somatic-experiencing practitioner. That takes a full, it's almost like a whole separate degree. But I actually find what you're saying very important to highlight, too, because HSPs, while anyone listening might think, goodness, OK, I'm highly sensitive. Now what? Does this just mean that I'm in for it? Everything's going to be harder?   Michelle (34:57) wow.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:14) The good thing, the hopeful thing is that HSPs also respond more to positives. So they feel more positive sensation from things like a massage or acupuncture or homeopathy or different aromatherapies. They're really going to benefit from it. I think that's why   Michelle (35:20) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:39) My HSPs tend to stay in therapy longer. So HSPs are kind of a stronger ratio in therapy, not only because the world can feel more traumatizing at some points for HSPs, but because they just get so much out of it. I think it also leads to things like food can taste even better. Music can sound even more beautiful. Movies can be even more moving. So there's these...   Michelle (35:58) Mm-hmm.   There's benefits.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:09) Yeah, there's this, I wouldn't give it up. I wouldn't want to be less sensitive just because it would make me a little bit less likely to reach for a snack in the afternoon. So there's this yin and yang to it.   Michelle (36:14) brain.   Yes.   For sure. I actually like just from my own journey based on that, what I offer a lot of my patients and I always talk to them about it when I perceive that they get overwhelmed by stimulation. That was really how I saw it. I would say that it's not about changing that it's a gift actually, cause it could also teach you to be very aware of other people's feelings and   Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:40) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Right.   Michelle (36:50) And that can be a great thing for healers, to be honest, because you're a lot more likely to be able to understand the people that you're working with. It's not about changing. It's more about managing, kind of figuring out ways to stabilize so that it works for you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:53) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Right.   Absolutely. And I think that's the whole key of identifying whether or not you're one and why it's important. I've had clients who come in with a laundry list of diagnoses from other practitioners, usually because what's going on is trauma and it's being misdiagnosed as many other things, just my clinical opinion. But when I say maybe you're also highly sensitive, sometimes they just throw their arms up like another thing. And it's like, no, no.   Michelle (37:36) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:37) This is a key. This is a huge level of insight that can inform everything from your fertility journey for people listening, from trauma, from navigating. Anytime something stands in your way of getting where you want to be, if you know, well, I'm highly sensitive, so I will be more likely to succeed at this thing or accomplish this thing or feel better about this thing if I take my sensitivity into account.   Michelle (38:01) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:07) Perfect example, I had a very heavy day yesterday. had, I think, eight clients, a podcast, an interview, and a class. It was too much. It was a heavy, heavy day. I get home and my husband had managed to fix the voice-changing microphone toy that my kids have that had been broken that I wasn't rushing to fix. so I come in the house. They run to me. They're so excited to see me, so I'm excited to see them.   Michelle (38:17) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Ha ha ha!   Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:35) and then they start in on this microphone. The last thing I wanted was to hear that microphone. But I know I didn't want to ruin their fun. So I know about me that I am going to be sensitive to sound when I'm overstimulated. So I went into my bag. I got my loop earbuds. If no one's ever heard of them, they're great for dampening noise around you, but you can still hear people. Popped my earbuds in. I didn't feel like I had to mask the issue of being sensitive to the noise.   Michelle (38:56) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:03) My family knows this about me. It wasn't anything against my kids. It was just, I'm going to pop these in so you can still have fun, but I can feel peaceful. And that's, think, a compassionate way to care for yourself is when you know these things about yourself, you can do things to help you still integrate and feel happy and peaceful in your life, but not have to push away what really is true.   Michelle (39:17) Mm-hmm.   I love that. actually really love that. It actually, the idea of highly sensitive, I don't mind it. Although I do think that there's definitely a lot of labels. I don't see this as one because the reason why I'm saying this, it reminds me of human design where you find out your strengths and sensitivities.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:42) Yes.   Michelle (39:47) and I think that once you know those, so it's not like a disorder, you know, cause we, think we hear all these different labels. think of it as like all these disorders. It's not no. And so that's the thing with this. I feel like it brings a lot of clarity. I, as a sensitive person   Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:54) Mm-hmm. It's not even a diagnosis.   Michelle (40:05) it really makes me understand myself more and manage it more. Just like you said, and I think that that is the key rather than getting frustrated with my husband who likes to really over explain. And sometimes I'm like, okay, my brain is like just on fire right now. And I have to explain that to, like, I know to explain that to him, like, it's not you, it's just me. He like right now I'm overloaded with information. I need a little quiet.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:10) Mm hmm.   Mm-hmm.   my gosh.   Yes.   Right.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (40:33) So I think that when you do that, you'll also come at explaining things in a way that's more compassionate and easier to communicate rather than getting frustrated because you'll understand yourself better. And you understand sort of the situation that somebody else might not have that level of sensitivity and you do so they may not realize it. And I just feel like it really puts so much clarity to the situation.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:41) Right.   Right.   Right.   absolutely. if you happen to have kids or if you're on this fertility journey and in the future you're blessed with kids, the likelihood of them maybe being sensitive is quite high. And so you will be able to model for them. I joke one day, my daughter was probably three or four at the time, and she kept asking me for things in the bathroom. like, what is she doing? I walked in and she was laying in the tub with a book and a cup.   Michelle (41:17) Yes.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:30) and a towel over her face. And I'm like, what are you doing? She goes, I'm being mommy. I know, but it made me really proud too, because I'm like, OK, great. So this has been modeled for her. And you know, one thing we didn't even mention that we probably should have mentioned at the very beginning, high sensitivity is not abnormal. It's an adaptive trait. And it is a third. Up to a third of the human population is highly sensitive.   Michelle (41:35) That's really cute.   Yeah.   you   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:59) And there are ranges. So you have high sensitivity, medium sensitivity, and there are actually people who are low sensitive as well. Like their nervous system takes a lot of stimulation to be activated. And you might notice if you start learning this about yourself, you'll be able to start reflecting on people in your life and how you respond to them. And there might be people you can get to depth with a little bit more easily. Those might be your other co-HSPs.   Michelle (42:12) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:29) And this is not just humans. The research shows this is in hundreds of animal species, even bugs. So it's everywhere. It's part of nature. It's part of nature, essentially.   Michelle (42:38) Wow, that's fascinating. That's so interesting. It's wild. You know, and I think to myself, like one of the things that I noticed, and it's so interesting that you said this, because I noticed that my patients, One of the things that I really observe is how they respond to treatments. Not everybody responds as quick.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:52) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Michelle (42:58) Some people take a little longer. so I can come up with like my first protocol, but then I realized I need to shift it a little bit, depending on how they do, or sometimes I'll even use baby needles on people who are very, very sensitive. Cause I don't want to overdo it with their nervous system. They don't need the strong needles. They don't need the strong stimulation cause they feel it already. And the people that have that body awareness   Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mmm.   Right.   Right.   Michelle (43:22) is that when they have that body awareness, I feel like they respond to treatment a lot faster.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:28) Mm hmm. Yep. You're right. Just like we were saying that you'll get more good out of the good.   Michelle (43:31) Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. I can talk to you for hours. I really enjoy our conversations. It's a lot of fun. I'll come back and then I'll have you back because I'm sure we can come up with like all kinds of things to talk about.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:37) I know I have to have you back now.   Well, and you know the funny thing, so I'll tell your listeners my podcast is The Sensitivity Doctor, and I have folks on all the time to talk about different topics around sensitivity. Do you know I have not had an episode literally just talking about what it means to be a highly sensitive person? I would love to have you on to have a chat about what it means to another highly sensitive person, and we can just unpack it. Because we talk about it extraneously around it, but I'm like,   Michelle (44:04) really?   Let's do it. Let's do it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:16) Yeah, we should just unpack what that means. So I would love to have you back.   Michelle (44:20) That would be great. I really enjoy talking to you. can just like totally pick your brain. You're so interesting to talk to. I got really, and I love your energy and you're also the way you approach it in such an empowering way. I love that. Like I think it's just amazing. yeah, yeah, this is fun. I'm really excited. I actually met you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:26) thank you. You too.   Mm-hmm. Thank you.   Yeah, it was a good it was a good meeting   Michelle (44:41) it was definitely a great meeting. So I would love for you to share for people listening and if they want to learn more, if they want to read your books, how they can reach you and how they can work with you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:47) Mm-hmm.   Sure, so as I was mentioning, I do have my podcast that comes out every Thursday. But if you want to learn basically anything that I have to offer, it's on my website at AmeliaKelly.com, and that's Kelly with an EY. And I have links to my Psychology Today blog. It's called In Your Corner. I've got meditations on Insight Timer on there. There's a couple different quizzes, like if you want to figure out if you're in a...   trauma bond, if you want to learn if you're a highly sensitive person, I have an assessment on there. I also offer what I think to be the most important tools from some of my books that I want to make available to everyone for free, like the safety plan of how to get out of domestic violence situations, suicide safety plan, gas lighting checklist, like some of the things that I feel like everyone really should just have. You don't need to go buy the book.   Those are available too. So you can also find links for all my books and I also have a group that I meet every Tomorrow actually it's meeting. It's every other Thursday It's called powered by ADHD and it's for women with ADHD and sometimes we have guest speakers on which we're gonna have tomorrow night so I'm excited about that and I love that because it's a resource that women anywhere in the world can reach out You don't have to be in the state of North Carolina where I'm licensed. So   virtually anyone who is a woman or identifies as a woman can join that.   of course. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you'll come back. Awesome.  

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Samantha Bonizzi shares her deeply personal journey through pregnancy loss, the challenges of trying to conceive, and the emotional rollercoaster of navigating IVF. She emphasizes the importance of community, support, and mental health resources during such a difficult time. Samantha also discusses her motivation for co-authoring a book that shares stories of fertility loss and hope, aiming to help others feel less alone in their experiences. Samantha highlights the significance of self-care, therapy, and trusting one's intuition throughout the journey to motherhood.     About Samantha:   Samantha is a writer with a background in public relations and communications. She spent her early career working in PR for lifestyle brands and has since transitioned to a corporate internal communications role at a tech company.    She grew up in New Jersey, where she’s lived most of her life (besides a brief stint in New York City), and now resides just outside Montclair with her husband and mini bernedoodle. She loves the area and has written several stories about things to do and places to go for a local lifestyle website, The Montclair Girl. She also loves reading, working out and doing yoga, hiking and being outdoors, and traveling.    Samantha has always had a passion for wellness and women’s health, which has taken center stage in her life since experiencing pregnancy loss and fertility challenges. Now, she wants to pay what she's learned forward and is on a mission to help women who find themselves on similar paths.   IG: @sam.bonizzi  IG: @thelosseswekeep  Website: https://samantha-bonizzi-bookshop.square.site       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!    Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Samantha.   Samantha Bonizzi (00:02) Thank you so much for having me. Excited to chat with you today.   Michelle (00:05) Me too. So excited to chat with you and I've worked with you before and I'm excited to have you on and super excited that you co-authored this book. And I would love for the listeners to hear your journey and really what inspired you to share your story with others.   Samantha Bonizzi (00:26) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So just to take a bunch of steps back and kind of share what led me to this point, I guess to start, know, we, my husband and I wanted to start a family. And so like most of our generation, you know, I was on birth control for 12 years and in talking to my doctor about, you know, starting to try.   It was as simple as, know, get off birth control, start trying and see what happens. It should happen pretty quickly if you're lucky. So that's exactly what we did. Sure enough, we were pregnant within a few months of trying, which we were, you know, very excited about, of course, and, you know, just thought we were lucky in that it happened to us so quickly. We   You know, initially, I've kept the news to ourselves for the first eight or nine weeks. And at that point, things had been going well when we went in for our first initial appointments. You know, we saw the heartbeat. The doctor said everything was looking good. The first big milestone, of course, is that 12, 13 week appointment when you go in for the genetic testing. And, you know,   Like I said, up until this point, we at first were being pretty discreet with the news, but we did start to share with close family and friends. We weren't shouting it from the rooftops yet, but we definitely, you know, we were excited. And so we started to tell some of our immediate circle. and so we went in for that appointment, pretty naive. think, we, I had, of course, as a woman, you're familiar with the fact that miscarriages can happen.   My mom had even had two miscarriages during her, after she had me before my brother. But it wasn't something that we really talked about. And it wasn't anything even in my immediate circle in terms of friends or close family members, anything that they had gone through. So I was pretty naive going in. I think we went into that appointment.   excited to just be in an ultrasound and see the baby. It had been five weeks, I think, since I had been in for an appointment. So we were just, you know, excited to see the baby. And even when the nurse was doing the initial ultrasound, the baby came up on the screen. We were like, we didn't notice anything was wrong. We were just like very excited. And then all of sudden we did notice that the technician went quiet. You know,   Michelle (03:07) Mm.   Samantha Bonizzi (03:16) she was kind of dynamic with us in the beginning when we first came in and then all of a sudden her her demeanor changed right away. And then at that point she left to go get the doctor. The doctor came in and simply told us that we didn't have a viable pregnancy. And it was it wasn't our doctor because it was like this genetic doctor that was doing this particular scan for us. So luckily our doctor was in   Michelle (03:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (03:45) the same building. So we're able to be like ushered into see the doctor right away and kind of walk through what our next steps would be. But we were just very shocked. We were not expecting that to happen, especially, you know, getting up until that 13 week mark is where we were at. So we kind of felt like and I think also I didn't understand the concept of a missed miscarriage, which is what happened to us.   Michelle (03:51) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (04:14) When I thought of a miscarriage before, assumed it was something that happened where you started to bleed and it happened at home and you know clearly like you are having a miscarriage. So when I went in there and they told me we didn't have a viable pregnancy, I didn't know what that meant, how that happened, why that happened. So it was all very shocking, I would say. So it was at that point, we talked to our doctor, he recommended having a DNC.   Michelle (04:23) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (04:42) which is what we did a few days later and you know, you go into the hospital and that was my first time in that hospital where I thought we would be delivering our baby and then you have to go in there and remove the baby. so that was really, I guess, a surreal moment. and you know, to be frank, like the DNC procedure is pretty quick and painless and you wake up and you're just, the baby's gone. It's not.   Michelle (04:53) Wow, yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (05:10) inside of you anymore. And you're just kind of left unsure of what to do next. They don't really provide you with any resources. They just send you on your way. And in talking with my doctor, he was like, you know, we'll follow up with the results. Like that's part of the reason we did the DNC so that they could test the tissue to kind of confirm because they had he had projected it was likely a chromosome issue. But they wanted to make sure of that. So   said they would follow up in a few weeks. And in terms of like getting pregnant again, it was really like, you could start trying as soon as you get your next period. It's up to you in terms of when you're emotionally ready. Like, well, how am going to know if I'm emotionally ready? Like, this is such a shock to the system. So, you know, I think at that point I was shook for sure. And like I said, I didn't have anybody in my   Michelle (05:54) Yeah. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (06:06) immediate circle who had been through anything like that. So I kind of didn't know where to turn. At the same time, I didn't really go out and seek a lot of resources because I felt like, you know, the way the doctor described it, it was something that could happen to anybody. It was a spontaneous thing. You know, it's not an indication of there being a problem with you being able to hold on to a pregnancy. So just try again.   And so I think I was just determined, you know, I'm a very, I have a very, I think, know, type a personality where I'm like, okay, let's just like get it done. Let's keep trying. We can do this. And so I was sad, of course, but I was also at the same time, like so determined to just make it work the next time. And so we did really jump into trying again right away. And I think we were pregnant three months later.   Michelle (06:44) Hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (07:05) and you know, I think when you deal with a pregnancy after loss, you're robbed of a lot of things. there's no longer like an immediate joy of a positive pregnancy test because it's like quickly followed with fear and anxiety. It's the same thing can happen to you, you know, going, going into an ultrasound is scary because especially if that's where you found out about your miscarriage, there's a sphere that you're going to receive the same news.   Michelle (07:29) Bye.   Samantha Bonizzi (07:34) And, you know, all those things were definitely building up in my head when we found out we were pregnant. At the same time, I just felt like surely it wouldn't happen to us again. You know, I was sure that we had paid our dues and like this was something that just randomly happened to us the first time and that we would be okay. And even as the doctor, you know, he had flagged   a few concerns, things like the fetal heart rate and the size of the sac and those types of things. And he of just had us continue to come back every two weeks to kind of check on those markers. But I still was like, no, this is gonna work. And so when he told us eight weeks that it would again wasn't a viable pregnancy, I think I was even almost more shocked.   Michelle (08:13) you   Well.   Samantha Bonizzi (08:28) than the first time and you would think that, okay, you've been through this, you know how to deal. It wasn't like that because after the second one, it was almost worse because the realization set in that this wasn't just a spontaneous thing that happened to us. Like to have these miscarriages back to back, I felt like, okay, something must be wrong. Either I've done something to deserve this and I'm being punished or something is wrong with us where this isn't working.   Michelle (08:32) Right.   Samantha Bonizzi (08:55) I think especially being in that short time window too. And when you see everyone around you, like I had all my friends were having babies at that time and it worked for them. Why isn't it working for us? So it was again a shock. I think at that point I told myself we need to slow down. We need to kind of understand if   there is an underlying issue we need to kind of reassess before we just jump into trying again. And I don't know if that's, I don't know exactly what led from the first to the second. And if we did try too soon, I'll never know how those answers, but I just felt like we had to slow down and just reassess what was happening. So at that point, I, you know, I started to go to a fertility clinic, started to have all the testing.   that they recommend for recurring pregnancy loss. And that took a few months. And through all of that, they said everything seems to be fine. It's likely due to poor egg quality or bad luck that this happened, which is on one hand reassuring because when there's not a glaring issue, you at least know, okay, well, this is, you know, there's not something, you know, glaring that's   preventing this from happening. But on the other hand, it's like, if it's bad luck, then why is this happening? And that's actually the title of my chapter is, if nothing is wrong, then how do we fix it? Which is how I felt. You're telling me nothing's wrong, well then what is our path forward? And really it was left unclear. It was, you could do IVF and potentially reduce your risk of miscarriage because you could do things like,   Michelle (10:30) Right. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (10:46) you know, the genetic testing and everything where you have more of a chance of having a healthy embryo. But that's not a guarantee. Or if you feel more comfortable trying it naturally, you can do that. And so there was this sort of leaning recommendation towards IVF. But then you're like, well, this is a fertility clinic. Do they just want me to do the IVF? Is this really what's best for us? So   Michelle (10:53) Right.   Right.   Samantha Bonizzi (11:11) In hearing all that, you you kind of go through, at least for me, I went through sort of a spiral of guilt around, again, why was this happening? If there isn't a, if there isn't a medical reason, what is the reason, you know, kind of searching for answers in all of it? So you, you know, I definitely went through spirals of why me. And I think what helped at that point was just like hearing other people's stories.   And it really took a lot of effort for me to find those people to connect with on the topic who had been through it. Like I said, I didn't have anybody I knew personally who had been through it, at least on a close knit level. So it was like taking to social media and being connected through friends to other women who had been through something similar and who came out on the other side.   Michelle (11:50) Hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (12:09) And I think that was what was most helpful. I did support groups as well. And I think that was also helpful in just having those regular touch points with people who are going through the same thing that you're going through and just got it. So I think between those two things, that, that really helps with those negative spirals of emotion that I was feeling. you know, in considering IVF, which was a big decision,   Michelle (12:09) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (12:38) It was talking to people who had done IVF and really understanding the process from them that sort of gave me the push to give it a shot. think ultimately it came down to just what I thought best in my gut for us, like in talking to my husband about it. And we felt like it was the right call for us. But again, it was a very hard decision.   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (13:09) I think, yeah, it was tough, but we ultimately decided to go through with the IVF. And I'm very grateful that we did because we were lucky enough where we had a successful retrieval and a successful transfer. And I'm currently nine months pregnant. So that's kind of where I'm at in a nutshell. And what led me to the book,   Michelle (13:30) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (13:37) I had been connected, the lead author, her name is Jamie Christ. She was somebody I was connected to through my cousin who actually lives in Miami. And when I was in Miami visiting her, my cousin, that's when I wanted to see you and I was going through the fertility treatment. But my cousin connected me with Jamie as one of those women who had been through something similar to what I was going through to kind of talk through different.   Michelle (13:47) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (14:04) aspects of the journey and resources and things of that nature. And so we kind of just kept in touch and then she was looking for authors to join her on this anthology project that she was working on. And I decided at the time I hadn't found out I was pregnant. I didn't even find out I was pregnant yet. I was just about to transfer when I decided to do it. But it was something, you know, during my journey   Michelle (14:28) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (14:34) I had been journaling a lot and kind of writing about my experience and I always thought, you know, it would be great to share this one day. And so this felt like the right opportunity to do that and to start talking about it and sharing my story. So I joined Jamie and eight other authors, including myself on this book called The Losses We Keep, Our Journey of Fertility, Loss and Neverending Hope.   And it's just a compilation of our stories. So we each have a chapter and we share, you know, what we went through and every story is unique and different. So there's really something for everybody who's either going through, going through it or know somebody who's going through it. So it's really beautiful how it all came together and yeah, kind of what led me there.   Michelle (15:26) I that's so beautiful that first of all, I think there's something therapeutic about sharing your story and getting your story out there. Plus, that is going to help others And it's kind of interesting when you were talking about your experience with a doctor and it was kind of like you went and then they're like, okay, you know, well, it's good luck next time. And then you're off.   with no guidance whatsoever. I hear that story time and time again. I hear it so much that I'm don't they create some kind of like the mental health aspect? Why don't they create some kind of support for people? Because I feel like that's part of the whole process. I feel like it should be part of it. When you're going through a loss like that, and it's often your first loss and   you don't know who to talk to and you might not have a community. Some people don't have anybody like at all. So I just don't understand why I feel like it should be protocol for people going through it. And so that's why I love the fact that you actually wrote the story because I feel like when people hear other people's stories, I think the biggest thing and tell me if this is accurate, it's just knowing that you're not alone, that you're not like alone in this experience.   Samantha Bonizzi (16:24) Yep.   Yeah.   It says that's exactly right. And that was a big part of my why too. was partly being therapeutic and kind of being able to get all of this out there and get it on the page and share it. But it was also being able to help other women feel less alone because that was something I so needed when I was going through it was to have that sense of community or just.   hearing people who had been through the journey and who ended up on the other side. And that's a lot of what Jamie talks about too and why she started this project was because when she was going through it, like, yes, there were resources that you can find in books and things, but at times could feel sort of negative. And she just needed the optimism. And this is really, you know, it's meant to be a beacon of hope for women who are going through it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:25) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's just, it's something that is so needed. because I think when you're going through that, you really don't have any guarantee. you just don't know how tomorrow is going to be and like how it's going to work out. And it's always kind of like having faith. Okay, well, you know, my past has been disappointment and loss and hurt and pain. And so is my future going to look like that too?   Samantha Bonizzi (17:46) Yeah.   Michelle (17:58) And then what I also thought was really interesting, and I think it's great that you bring up is that when you talked about IVF and you considered it and all the different thoughts that you have, all these things that you think in the back of your head, like, well, are they trying to sell this on me? These are those little thoughts that we all have, but we don't always speak or even acknowledge. It's kind of like sitting there behind everything.   Samantha Bonizzi (18:22) Yeah.   Michelle (18:24) So when you're thinking that what I found really amazing with how you described it is that you assessed, kind of sat with it and you also address the fact that you're like, wait, rather than saying, okay, this is better luck next time, let me try again, again, because there's nothing wrong and kind of going with what you were being told, you let your inner guidance, your inner wisdom, I call it, it's almost like our inner compass leads you to   uncovering more and you're like, wait, I'm not going to put myself through this again, before I get more information. And then also when you got information, you assessed everything and you listened to your gut. always talk to people about that because even I, as a practitioner, cannot bypass that. that's your, you have the intelligence inside your body, inside your mind that guides you to what is right for you.   Samantha Bonizzi (19:22) Yeah, I mean, that was a big, big part of it because it was such a, it was such a heavy decision and you could weigh out the pros and cons all day long. But at the end of the day, it's just what you feel in your gut is right. And I think for us, and I say us, cause it really was a joint decision between my husband and I, even though it was my body, we just felt like we needed to try something different. You know, what we had done historically wasn't working and you know, we trusted   Michelle (19:46) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (19:51) the doctor that we were working with and we trusted the clinic and I had done a lot of the leg work to get us to that point. I switched fertility clinics, I switched doctors even at that fertility clinic once I was there. So I felt like I had done so much to get us to that point and it felt like the right next step. mean, there was certainly doubt in all of that because I didn't know, I didn't know what was going to happen and the thought of IVF is scary. When you haven't been through it, you don't know.   Michelle (20:07) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (20:20) And I had never dealt with anything medically before either. So even just like being in and out of the doctor and all of that and dealing with doctors, I wasn't used to that. So that was something I really had to orient myself around and learn how to talk to doctors and advocate for ourselves. know, like with all the testing and everything, there were moments where I really did have to advocate and push for more testing and push for them to test my husband's sperm because there was...   Michelle (20:37) Right. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (20:48) point one which they didn't want to and you know that would feel good to have it be put on the women. So there was a lot of moments where you kind of have to, I don't know, you kind of learn and grow from it I think and that's at least what I tried to take from it but it was all definitely a challenge but yes I agree that just listening to your intuition at the end of the day is what's gonna push you forward.   Michelle (20:51) Yep.   Totally.   Yeah, no doubt. And I know that the community was like a big thing for you too, is just connecting with other people helped you get strength, but also clarity, I imagine.   Samantha Bonizzi (21:29) Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, like I said, it was, was in talking to other women who had been through it. And I think, you know, I, when you envision how you start a family, you never envision there to be challenges like this, miscarriages, fertility treatment, all of that. And so, because it was just such a new concept that you kind of have to orient yourself around, it's helpful to hear from other people who had   been through it and can kind of help shed light on the experience and make you feel like, okay, this is actually a moment of strength and not a weakness. It's not a moment of weakness that we are now having to resort to fertility treatment and we can't get pregnant the natural way, which I hate that concept of natural versus medicated. Yeah, it's all natural, right? And that was what   Michelle (22:24) it's all natural. It's a baby. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (22:29) I told myself in the end, I don't care the path that we get there anymore, I just want the baby in our arms. And so whatever it takes to get there, I will do it. And that helped me, I think come to terms with IVF as well, is that it's the destination that matters, not the journey.   Michelle (22:36) Yeah.   I love that. actually really love that you're saying that because it's true. It's almost like that. As soon as you surrender the how it seems to make things a lot easier, then you're just like, okay, and then because you you're moving with the flow of the how, rather than resisting it at every point, because that resistance is only going to cause more stress.   Samantha Bonizzi (22:51) No.   Yes.   It does.   Yes, exactly. And I think that was a big part of it. When I was going through the testing and everything, it was like, I was trying to gain so much control over every little aspect. I mean, and not even just with doctors, but in, you know, the lifestyle changes that I was making and putting effort into my diet and the supplements and the environment, all those things that you hear about that are supposed to help the fertility and   I think there's definitely some merit to it, but at the same time, it gets exhausting. Just having to, you want to think that you have, yeah, and you want to think you have some semblance of control over the situation, in which for me, it was very much a coping mechanism, because I felt such at a loss with everything, that I was like, okay, if I do these things and I control these things, at least I can, you know, feel like I'm doing something and I'm making, and I'm getting momentum towards, you know, the end goal here.   Michelle (23:46) It's a lot. It's a lot of pressure.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (24:08) But I think I became very burnt out by it all. so I think the other appealing thing with IVF was like, can kind of surrender to the process and trust the doctors and just choose this as my path forward. And there was some comfort in that.   Michelle (24:26) Yeah, because it's almost like a plan is in place and you're just like following this plan and then you have a direction to go in.   Samantha Bonizzi (24:32) Yeah, yeah, exactly.   Michelle (24:35) And what are other coping skills that you found doing this? Because I know obviously community is tremendous. I know that that is really because we really need people. We're such social beings. We need people. We need to hear that we're not alone. We're not the only ones thinking certain thoughts or feeling certain feelings. So having that community it eases the load, that kind of personal load.   But what are other things that you've done that you feel have helped you in the process just for people listening?   Samantha Bonizzi (25:06) I think therapy was a big one and finding the right therapist who, for me at least, who understood what I was going through and kind of had a more specialized focus in everything maternal health. I had dabbled in therapy before and I was seeing a therapist when I first got pregnant, but I decided to switch after the miscarriage and find somebody who   Michelle (25:21) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (25:36) like I said, was specialized. And, you know, I felt like could get me through the specific situation that I was going through. And I think that was really important for my healing journey, was having that regular touch point of therapy, of talk therapy, and just having an outlet to get everything out and work through whatever it was that I needed to work through.   you know, it's something where you have your friends and family and your partner, but you at the same time might feel like a, at least for me, I felt like a burden a lot of the time, like not really wanting to put that on everyone else around me. So having that like consistent therapy appointment was just always a good outlet for me to kind of sort through the ins and outs of what I was going through. So I think therapy was a big one. And then just like,   generally self-care, whatever was going to get me through, whether it was like making that massage appointment or whether it was related to fertility or not. think just having, getting out for the walk with the good podcast and like prioritizing that, like there was no limits to my self-care time, I think during that window.   Michelle (26:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (27:00) you know, whatever I could do to make myself feel better in the short term or the long term was what I was doing.   Michelle (27:06) That's so important because it's kind of like a self-soothing. I think that that is a really good skill to have, to find ways to make yourself feel better. Sometimes that gets neglected. It's not something that we're actually raised to think about. Oftentimes it's actually quite the opposite. We feel guilty about it. We're like, you know, what are you doing sitting around? You're not doing anything. So you feel almost guilty about it. And it's a conditioning because it's really something that is so important really for   Samantha Bonizzi (27:10) Yeah.   Michelle (27:35) our bodies, for our nervous systems. I often talk about nervous system because it's so important for fertility health, but it's also important for your emotional state as well. And I also love that you brought up therapy, but specifically with somebody who is specialized in your specific needs, which there are out there just for people listening.   And you can find people who are very specifically specialized in this field and understand the process. They understand the grieving process and how, you know, there's patterns to every type of emotion. So I think it's really important. Yeah, for sure. And I think also you'll talk to somebody who understands you specifically and what you're going through.   Samantha Bonizzi (28:12) Yep. Yeah. So important. Yeah.   Yes, yes. And it's that and even now it's all connected. Like she, my therapist understands my journey and what got me to this pregnancy and now helping me through this pregnancy and all the other anxieties and fears that I now feel being pregnant after pregnancy loss. There's a lot of nuance to that. having her as part of...   Michelle (28:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (28:49) the lead up and into kind where I am now has been really helpful. And even as I enter into postpartum, you know, I think everything around motherhood, it's all there's, and I don't, I'm almost, I'm about to embark on motherhood. So there's a lot to learn, but there's, you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety. The worrying never stops. So I'm so grateful that I found the right person.   Michelle (29:03) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, that's true. mean, your emotions and everything that you're going through, doesn't just stop when you get to the place that you're looking to get to, you know? So there's always something and it is really important to address because it will come up sometimes and it legitimately is PTSD. mean, so you're going through something and then you were saying about going back to the doctor's office. Yes, because it's like the sensations, the lights, the visuals, all of the things.   Samantha Bonizzi (29:23) Yeah.   Michelle (29:41) those are all reminding us of the last time we were there and all the things that we went through in that time. So it's really important to at least even acknowledge that and know that those things can come up and that they're normal. Like it happens really, can't even think of one patient that has not gone through that, that I've worked with.   Samantha Bonizzi (29:42) Yeah.   Yeah, and that's been the challenge is sort of having to like relive your past traumas. You know, when it comes to pregnancy after loss, you have to do the things that are hard that remind you of the bad times. You know, like you said, going into those ultrasound appointments and dealing with being in the same room you were in when you found out about your pregnancy loss and how to get through that. And   therapy did really help me with that, kind of being able to ground yourself in reality and like, what do I know is true right now? And I think the fact of keeping, you know, reminding myself that this is a different pregnancy with a different outcome with a different story was really important and a concept I kind of picked up from therapy and also support groups and things like that. So   There are all these coping mechanisms at the end of the day. It's still hard, you kind of, there's no way to go but through yeah, it's so true. And so, you know, in order to get there, I had to get pregnant again, had to go through the first trimester, had to get through the ultrasounds in order to get to where I am now. So.   Michelle (31:01) Yeah.   I love that thing. It's true.   Mm-hmm   Samantha, you are so articulate. You're really good with your words. You're really good at describing your experience I could feel the emotion in your voice, even when you're explaining it, like really, like you really walk us through that exact experience very well. Like you could really, really feel it. So first of all, I think it's just, takes a lot of courage to express things or to speak about things that are so personal.   Samantha Bonizzi (31:21) Thank you.   Thank you.   Michelle (31:45) And I know that you're doing this really for the benefit of people listening. So for that, I really want to commend you. think it's just beautiful. And that's kind of like the beauty of life is when you're able to take something that is so hard and so personal and know that you kind of like, it's like alchemy, know, something that can be so painful could serve a purpose for somebody else hearing it.   And then just to also share in that, I guess, that human So thank you so much for sharing that. And for people who want to read this book, how can they find it? How can they find you?   Samantha Bonizzi (32:21) Yeah, absolutely. So we are available. The book is available on Amazon or really wherever you purchase your books. And we've been out for about two weeks. So it's fairly new out in the market, but we're excited about it and hope you'll, whether you're someone going through it or you know somebody going through it. Like I said, there's a story in there for everybody. So we hope it touches you in some way.   I'm the best place to find me is Instagram. So I'm at Sam dot Benizzi. And yeah, I'm public on there, but send me a DM. I'd love to connect.   Michelle (33:03) Awesome. I'll have all the links in the podcast episode notes. So if anybody wants to go in there, you'll find the website and the Instagram and Samantha, you're just such a doll. Like I always liked you from the beginning when he first came in. You just have such a good energy about you. And I just, I really, yeah, I loved, I love having you on here and having this conversation with you. And then just the fact that you co-authored a book is just amazing.   Samantha Bonizzi (33:14) Yeah.   Thank you. Likewise.   Thank you so much for having me and giving me a platform to continue to share. it's been great to connect with you. Like I said, was one time, but you really left a mark. So I'm glad we can kind of stay in contact about it as well.   Michelle (33:47) Awesome. Well, thank you so much.   Samantha Bonizzi (33:49) Thank you.

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Marc Sklar to delve into evolving perspectives on fertility, especially for women over 40. We discuss the need to shift our focus from quantity to quality in fertility treatments, and the empowering impact this has on women navigating their fertility journeys. We cover the realities of IVF, the importance of patience, self-advocacy, and creating space for personal growth and healing. Marc and I also explore complex factors such as genetics, autoimmune issues, and male-related factors in recurrent pregnancy loss. This conversation is full of valuable insights for anyone on their fertility journey, promoting a holistic approach to healing and growth.   Takeaways   A shift in mindset is crucial for couples seeking fertility care after 40. Quality of eggs and embryos becomes more important than quantity as women age. Understanding hormones is important, but shouldn't be the sole focus. Regular ovulation is a key indicator of fertility, regardless of age. Real-life success stories provide hope and perspective for those trying to conceive. Patients should feel empowered to advocate for themselves in medical settings. IVF is not a guaranteed solution and should not be the first option considered. Donor eggs can be a valuable option, but should not be the first recommendation based solely on age. The energetics of fertility are crucial for healing. Recurrent pregnancy loss can stem from various factors, including genetics and autoimmune issues. Male factors contribute to 50% of miscarriages, often overlooked. The importance of the uterine environment in fertility cannot be ignored. Quick fixes are a societal conditioning that impacts health decisions. Understanding the microbiome can enhance fertility treatments. Emotional states can significantly affect physical health and fertility.   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!   Guest Bio:   Dr. Marc Sklar — a.k.a The Fertility Expert — is a natural fertility specialist helping couples get pregnant for 21 years. He’s mission is to help you feel HOPEFUL and CONFIDENT about your fertility journey again.    In addition to his Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, Dr. Sklar trained at the Harvard Medical School, Mind/Body Medical Institute. He is the creator of Fertility TV, MarcSklar.com and ReproductiveWellness.com, and a Fellow of the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine and Medical Advisor for Symphony Natural Health.   As well as his online program, he also supports his community via his highly popular YouTube channel: FertilityTV where he shares information packed videos to educate his followers on all things fertility.    The Fertility Expert lives in San Diego, with his wife and two sons, where he has his clinic Reproductive Wellness. He also works with couples all over the world through his fertility online coaching - the Hope Fertility Program.   FERTILITY TV WEEKLY EPISODE - http://bit.ly/thefertilityexpert FACEBOOK - https://www.facebook.com/thefertilityexpert INSTAGRAM - https://www.instagram.com/the_fertility_expert/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!   Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Scalari.   Marc Sklar (00:03) Welcome, well, thank you for having me. It's automatic. But no, it's awesome to reconnect. It's been a while and I'm excited to have a conversation that we both are passionate about, which is everything fertility.   Michelle (00:07) I know it's automatic. Yes.   For sure. We're like, you could say we're a little obsessed, right? With fertility. It's like, live it, we breathe it, So awesome. actually today we're going to talk about a couple of different topics, but I wanted to talk to you about pregnancy after 40. Cause I know that a lot of what we hear out there, even about,   Marc Sklar (00:25) 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.   Michelle (00:46) how even after 35, it's considered a geriatric pregnancy, which I don't know about you. just don't love that term at all. It's icky. yeah, because I'm sure you see most people like closer to the age of 40 and doing really well. So I'd love for you to talk about it, your experience with that, and also some really cool examples of how it can work despite all of the naysayers.   Marc Sklar (00:55) Yeah, not a fan of it.   Mm-hmm   Yeah, so I think, I so many things I want to talk about when you say this that I need to prioritize it in a good way. here's a couple of things that I think are really important. One is, I think our perspective about fertility, and when I say our, not ours as practitioners and doctors and providers, but more like ours as in like,   the couple who is seeking care during this time and wanting to get pregnant in their 40s, I think a mind shift has to happen. And I think that they need to think about their fertility in a slightly different way. If we are thinking about our fertility and reading everything that is really focused on   couples that are 30 or 35 or whatever age in their 30s, then we're going to be skewed differently about our own fertility and our approach needs to be different. And so I say that in the sense that, you know, we have to have a different reality of what is okay and what we're trying to achieve. A woman who's in her 30s is trying to get as many eggs as possible.   Michelle (02:43) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (02:43) So they have as many options when they have their embryos created and they are, you know, it's usually more about in general and this is a making a generalization, but it's more about quantity versus quality. We're like, let's have as many as we have so that we can choose the best quality of those and then we can move forward, you know, with our pregnancy. And...   the approach may or may not be in those situations about egg quality, because there might be other variables that are impacting their ability to conceive. Whereas I think when we are 40 and older, my approach really shifts. I don't care about quantity. I'm really, really focused on quality. And I think that mindset has to be different as a couple.   because then we were not as disappointed like, I didn't get that many follicles and they didn't retrieve as many eggs as I would have hoped. But because that's all we hear about. We hear about, look, we need all these eggs, we need all these embryos. But the reality is, is when we get older, I don't need 20 eggs or 20 embryos, I need a couple good ones. That's really what I'm looking for is a couple good embryos.   to work with and to transfer. So I think really a mind shift needs to happen and our perspective on fertility needs to change. And so for reading and understanding things as if we were 30 versus 40 or older, then we're gonna have, I believe, skewed perspective on our fertility journey. So that to me is number one. Number two is we do all get caught up in our hormones and some of that is appropriate and some of that is not appropriate.   Is it appropriate to understand where our hormones are at when we're at any age? 100%. Is it important to understand what our estrogen is doing and what our progesterone and FSH are doing? Absolutely. Is it important to know what our AMH is? Yes. Should we get caught up in AMH and make our whole focus about AMH? No.   The research doesn't promote, doesn't support these variables. Even FSH, AMH are not good indicators for a couple's ability to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy. Are they important for us to just have a baseline and understand? Yes. Will they potentially or can they potentially influence your IVF protocol? Yes.   But that doesn't mean we as couples need to get wrapped up in those numbers and make our fertility all about that because it shouldn't be. My rule of thumb is are you having a regular cycle? Check. Are you ovulating regularly? Check. Is your bleed healthy? Check. You can conceive.   Michelle (05:40) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (06:00) Do we have to look at these other variables? Do we need to check your thyroid? Do we need to work on your adrenal glands and stress? Do we need to make sure your gut is healthy? Do we need to make sure all the systems are functioning properly? Seem analysis is good. Fallopian tubes are open. All of those things are still important. But the main thing that as long as you're ovulating, you can get.   And I think that's a really important piece. Now, we're not talking about IVF or not IVF right now. It's just like conception at 40, right? And or older. And so I think if we just focus on the right things and don't get bogged down by these little details of someone who might approach things a little differently if they were 30, then our approach will be better. It will be healthier.   Michelle (06:37) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (06:57) you'll be more grounded in your approach. And we could focus on the areas that really need attention and support. And so I think that piece is really important as we are in our 40s, approaching fertility, still wanting to conceive. If we're always comparing ourselves to other women and other circumstances, we're gonna lose sight of what we need to do and always be trying to like catch up or do what they're doing. And I think that is...   That can really push us down the wrong road. I say this because truly I work with so many women who are over 40. And I see this time and time again. So it's coming from a lot of experience working with women over 40. And I have a wonderful story to share of a woman who is, and everyone will gasp when they hear, okay, when she conceived she was 48.   Michelle (07:55) That's awesome. I love that.   Marc Sklar (07:55) She is, I just spoke to her two days ago. When she delivers, she will be 49. Okay? And I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey.   Michelle (08:08) Was this natural or was it IVF?   Marc Sklar (08:11) This time was natural, but I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey. She did. I'm not saying it was easy. It was not. It was a long journey. It was difficult. Miscarriages, conceiving naturally, conceiving through IVF, long IVF protocols, multiple clinics, like all these things. So it wasn't easy. It was long, but she's 32 weeks pregnant right now.   Michelle (08:40) Wow, amazing.   Marc Sklar (08:41) And I say that because it's possible. It can happen. And these are the sorts of things we see on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's easy at 48, not at all. But I say that for some perspective on the process. Okay. And I think that, you know, do I think everyone could last for seven plus years trying? No, I don't think that's for everybody. She was never going to give up.   Michelle (08:51) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (09:11) Like regardless, like she was never going to stop and never give up until she was pregnant. And that's what she told me. She's like, I'm not going to stop and I'm determined. I was like, okay, I'll support you. Right. That, that, that process is not for everybody. Some people will be on it for a year or just have one or two IVF transfers. And they're like, this is too much. I'm done. I'm going to move on. And I respect everybody's path in that process, but   Michelle (09:21) Wow, amazing. Yeah.   Right.   Marc Sklar (09:39) I want everyone to know it's possible and that's why I share that story. I think it's possible regardless of age with the right support and the right process and the right focus of our attention.   Michelle (09:51) I love that. I really do. And I love the stories because I think that there's so many people that can benefit and you have that sign hope in the background. And it's true. Like those are, but stories, real life stories, there's nothing like real life stories to provide real hope. Cause you can hear, you know, there's a chance of this or a chance of that. But when you actually see an example of somebody going through those challenges that you are and having a successful pregnancy,   Marc Sklar (10:00) Yeah.   Michelle (10:21) I think that there's nothing that compares to that.   Marc Sklar (10:24) Yeah, absolutely. And I love to bring in stories wherever possible. And she was just at top of mind because I just booked her two days ago. So yeah.   Michelle (10:33) That's awesome. You know what I find really cool is the Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest pregnancy is 58 and it was natural. And it was a woman in England who, you know, in England, they don't have a lot of sunlight and, know, and vitamin D access naturally. So I thought that was really cool. But it's, it could be done. It's possible. Just like you said, and I love that you said   Marc Sklar (10:45) Wow. No.   Michelle (10:58) as long as you're ovulating, there is a possibility that you can get pregnant.   Marc Sklar (11:02) Yeah, yeah, we see this, we do see this all the time. Look, as soon as you hit 35 and 38 and certainly 40 and older, you're going to read things and hear things that say, you can't, it's not possible, you won't, you need donor, you need IVF, whatever it is that you're gonna hear, you're gonna hear it all.   I think the hardest time is when you hear it from the person on the other side of the desk in a white coat that says to you, your only option is donor, just give up. And we all hear variations of those words, whether it's not possible, just use donor, whatever variation of that, of what I just said, when you go into an office, whether that's your OB,   Michelle (11:46) True.   Marc Sklar (12:01) or your REI or whoever it might be, and you're sitting down talking to them and they see your age, they assume certain things and they make certain judgments. And they express those verbally to you. And you hear that and that registers in your brain that embeds into your brain. And you start to believe it. Well, yeah, right.   Michelle (12:22) It's nocebo.   True.   Marc Sklar (12:28) I've never heard it, say it. really like that phrase. Yeah.   Michelle (12:31) You're never going to be able to get it out of your head now. Every time a woman comes in and tells you the story.   Marc Sklar (12:36) Yeah. And so look, they said this to you, it and our our brains are really strong and we imprint with these negative things very easily. It's much harder to imprint with all the positive, it takes more effort. And so it imprints into our brain. And now we start to believe it. Well, Dr. So and so said, it's not possible, I'm not going to do it, I can't. And then we repeat that to ourselves so often that   Michelle (12:49) Right. It's true.   Marc Sklar (13:05) Now our body and our brains believe that to be true. so if someone says something negative to you, you have to work double or triple as hard on yourself to get that out. And you need to express to them, I didn't come here to hear negativity. I didn't come here for you to tell me that I can't. I'm determined to get pregnant.   Michelle (13:09) 100%.   Marc Sklar (13:33) And it's fine if you're not able or willing to help me, I'll go someplace else, but I don't need you to tell me that I can't do it, because I know that I can. And you have to do it in that moment. You have to say that in that moment to them, because what you're saying to them is repeating it back to yourself to retrain yourself and get rid very quickly, get rid of that negative comment so it doesn't embed into your brain, into your conscious.   Michelle (13:52) Yeah.   Marc Sklar (14:00) But it also allows them, they need to be woken up. One, they need to be told this is not okay. And two, you have to have the power and the strength to verbalize that truth to them. Okay. You might not be getting pregnant in the conventional way that you thought or they thought. You might not get pregnant in the way that they would like you to. It doesn't mean that you cannot get pregnant. It means that it might take longer. It might be a different path. It might be...   whatever. And so I think it's really important in those moments to stand up for yourself and verbalize that and let them know they might not like it. It's okay. Yeah, you didn't like what they said to you. So it's fine.   Michelle (14:41) Yeah, exactly.   Totally, totally. And that's like really taking your power back regardless, ultimately it's your journey. You're not there to make the doctor feel better.   Marc Sklar (14:53) Right, listen, I think that's such an important piece. Unlike most other medical visits and specialties, you are a consumer buying their service. Just because they're wearing a white coat and they have MD after their name does not mean   that they get the say in everything. It's your journey, it's your process. You're paying them a lot of money for their service. And even if you have insurance coverage, by the way, it's still insurance coverage that can go someplace else to pay for somebody else. So it doesn't have to go to them. And so...   You have the power, like they make it feel like they have the power and they control the situation. I want you to know you have the power. You control the situation and your outcome. It's your dollars that you're spending. You are and should be an equal participant in this process with them. And they don't have to dictate everything. Now, I'm not saying, you you're telling them the protocols to use all the time, but   It needs to be a joint effort in this process. It's totally different than going into a different medical environment and a different provider for different services. They're not charging you $20,000, those other people, for a service that's elective. So stand up for yourself. Have that empowerment to do so.   Michelle (16:34) Yeah.   Right.   Yeah. And another point that I want to make is, you know, when you're working with a doctor, it doesn't matter how qualified, like, I feel like they should believe in your outcome. If they're doubting your outcome, find another person.   Marc Sklar (16:57) Yeah, right now, 100%, 100%. Look, I am not opposed to donor egg. I think that donor egg is something that is super valuable and has its place. What I don't like is that just because of your age, someone is telling you, need to use donor egg. What they're really saying,   And there is certainly a place for donor egg. have lots of women that I work with that use donor egg very successfully and I'm a big proponent of it. But what, why they are telling you just based on your age to use donor egg is because their success rates are impacted by your age and the challenge, the potential challenge of getting pregnant at your age.   Michelle (17:51) Right.   Marc Sklar (17:55) And so for them and their success rates, they have higher chances with using donor egg and they would just prefer, it's an easier process, they would prefer that you use donor egg for that purpose. Okay, now again, does it mean that it's not the right decision for some? It just means that I think if they're just making that decision based on age, I think there's a lot of other pieces that need to be looked at before that decision is made.   Michelle (18:24) What you just said is so important because it's the reality. Really if the system, it's the reality because their ability to really stay on top of their game is for their statistics to make them look really good. And it's human nature. They're going to be thinking about that when they're talking to you, regardless if they're, you know, they can be great doctors, the two can coexist, but   They're also in a business. So it's important to keep that in mind in the realistic aspect of it is that it's going to make them look better. They don't want to take a risk. They see it as a risk, but that doesn't mean that just because they see it that way, that that's really the case for you.   Marc Sklar (18:54) 100%.   Right, yeah. Look, absolutely. I say this also from, so everyone knows who's listening, 50 % of the couples that I work with, 50 % of them are doing IVF. I could group IUI into that as well, so IUI or IVF, some form of assistive technique. Of that number, about 15%, use donor egg.   Michelle (19:33) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (19:34) So I'm fine with it. I'm happy to support you with it. I just often think that choice is made prematurely or that push in that direction is done prematurely without really giving you a fair chance, really looking at your case as a whole versus just looking at you as an age, as a number.   Michelle (19:56) Same thing with IVF. I also find that with IVF that people will start out maybe three months and they're young and they're like, you know, I just want a baby now. So I'm going to go to IVF. And a lot of people have a preconceived notion just because you're paying a huge amount of money and that there's technology involved that doesn't give a guarantee. in fact, I've seen people get more successful naturally, even at an older age than going through IVF.   Marc Sklar (20:05) Easy.   Well, the success rates for IVF for those who are listening and aren't aware are relatively low. You know, in your, from 30 to 35, those success rates are around 35 to 40 % ish. You know, depending on the clinic, some clinics might have a little higher, some a little bit lower, but roughly, you know, in the United States, that's an accurate statistic. It only goes down as you get older. And if you look, because most clinics,   Michelle (20:50) you   Marc Sklar (20:56) Don't have to report, but most clinics do report their statistics. If you look at statistics for IVF in their 40s without donor egg, those statistics are very, very low. So then you have to ask yourself, is this worth the money or can I get the same or better statistics and results trying naturally by addressing the root issues, by focusing on the things that I need to focus on, by getting healthy.   are those better for me? Are those odds better? One of the beautiful things you mentioned it with, you work with younger women and after three months they move forward with IVF. One of the beautiful things that's happened over the last 20 years is that fertility treatments and the fertility journey has become something that is more accepted and people are more willing to talk about it. And as a result of that,   marketing towards those communities has increased dramatically. And as a result, IBF has been spoken about more frequently because of that marketing. And so it's become so much more commonplace that couples who want to get pregnant, young, try for three months or six months, hey, it's not working.   you know, so and so did IVF and got pregnant or so, you know, we should just go do IVF. And they don't know the real statistics. They believe that it's a hundred percent successful. And as a result, it becomes the first line of treatment versus, you know, what used to be the third or fourth or fifth line of treatment, right? Well, I used to go to my OB and they used to do that. And then I would try other things. Now it's like, I'm not pregnant. Let's just go do IVF. Right. And so so many couples end up doing IVF.   thinking it's faster or more convenient without really working on themselves. And in turn, then they realized later on, I really shouldn't have started this way because it's not a guarantee. I haven't been successful. So they go there very prematurely. My preference would be is to see couples have patience. Take a step back. What's not working for me?   Michelle (23:03) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Marc Sklar (23:17) What do I need to improve and correct? And let's work on the root issues so that way you can be successful moving forward. And I had a conversation two weeks ago with a woman. I talked about it briefly this week on my Instagram stories because I think we were both frustrated with each other during this conversation. She has a history of repeated chemical pregnancies.   And she is frustrated with the lack of results and I've just started working with her. And so I asked her, know, she, and as we just started working together, she had another chemical and I asked her to stop trying for a little bit. I'm like, you're just having these ongoing chemicals and we're really not able to make progress. I just wrote out this plan for you. I want to give it some opportunity. You know, it's the end of the, it's close to the end of the year.   How about we just take off right now through the end of the year? Let's just take a break. Let's enjoy life and let's work on ourselves. And she felt like she was wasting time and she was feeling, I could feel her as soon as I said it, like getting anxious about like just the time of giving, creating this time to, and she's in her early forties. And she said, you know, I don't think I'm gonna do that. I can't do that. I'm gonna.   Michelle (24:19) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (24:44) I'm going to keep trying because I feel like I'm wasting time. We had this back and forth, this long conversation back and forth. I'm going to totally support her and respect her decision about how she wants to move forward. I just don't agree. Sometimes taking a step back and working on ourselves and creating space is progress towards our ultimate goal. I know that we think that if we're not actively having intercourse and trying to conceive at ovulation every month, that we're wasting time.   Michelle (24:57) Yeah.   yeah.   Marc Sklar (25:15) Well, in a situation like this, we're just spinning our wheels. If all we do is continue to do the same thing every month, expecting a different result, I don't know how that's gonna change. So we need to give ourselves a little bit of opportunity. And she's so worked up about it and anxious about it, she's trying to control every aspect and she's scared. She's making this decision out of fear.   Michelle (25:19) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (25:43) So one, the decision's being made out of fear, and two, she's trying to strangle, like, I'm gonna control all of this. It's not, we are typically not successful if we make decisions out of fear, number one, okay? And number two, the more we try to strangle something, the more you strangle it and you don't allow it to be successful.   We need to create some space, some room for things to occur. Okay? And I'm a big proponent of this, like, let's just take a step back. Let's take a deep breath. Let's understand, let's give ourselves some space and not have to be so stressed about this. Most things, if you think about it, are created in space, in a little bit of a vacuum. Sorry, not a vacuum, in a little bit of a space. If we have this vacuum, we're constantly trying to control it. There's no space for creation.   Michelle (26:19) Yep. Yeah.   Marc Sklar (26:39) There's no place for an opportunity for something to be created in. So I think it's, know, painting a beautiful painting is created from a blank canvas. It's created from space. And the same thing with our life. We need to create an opportunity for life to be created. And so that means not straining, not holding on so tight, not trying to control every little thing.   Michelle (26:52) Mm-hmm. Yep.   Marc Sklar (27:08) Let's take a step back. I'm not saying you don't like do the right things. I'm saying we don't try to control all of those things so closely. And I think this is really such an important lesson for all of us because our tendency when we're told is I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna add this in like, right? And you're just like more and more and more more and more. So that's like this stranglehold that happens.   Michelle (27:29) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (27:35) And I want us all to just let go a little bit more. It doesn't mean you're giving up. It doesn't mean you're taking a break. It doesn't have to be. It means you're just not holding on so tight to the outcome and the process. And I think this is so, so valuable for us. Difficult to do. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's so valuable. you know, I know her and I, were both...   kind of frustrated by the conversation because it didn't feel like she was listening to me and she didn't feel like she wanted to move on with my recommendations. She felt frustrated by me asking her to take a break. But I say it out of all love, like that is what I feel like is going to be the most beneficial for her in that situation. And I've had these conversations with others in the past and I'm just saying this from experience. So for all of you listening, sometimes we just gotta let go a little bit.   We've got to just ease up just a little bit.   Michelle (28:31) love this.   Yeah, no, I love this so much. you have no idea. Cause it, think that like you just said, you've had so much experience, you've seen this. And when you do something over and over again for many years, what happens is you start to get a feeling for it. You know, my husband works in the ER. He's starting to have a feel. He gets a sense when somebody's really sick or somebody saying they're sick, you start to get a sixth sense. You know, maybe we can't measure that, but it's a real thing. And I love that you talk about that. Cause to me that's   Marc Sklar (28:37) Yeah.   Michelle (29:04) being in a state of flow, being in a state of flow is the same exact thing that happens in our body when our chi flows and our vitality is able to feed all of our organs. cannot happen when it's constricted. And then going inward. Yeah, that's just going into the yin. You can't be constantly yang. You have to go back into the yin as well. And yin is incredibly productive.   Marc Sklar (29:25) Yeah.   Michelle (29:28) Like what happens when we're sleeping? We're in a state of yin. It's the most productive thing your body can do. You can't possibly have so much going on without that kind of like inert state. know, so it's, yeah, it's totally important, but also I don't know if you ever follow Dr. Joe Dispenza. I'm obsessed with his teachings. And have you ever done his meditations? So his meditations, he actually takes you through a form of induction, which   Marc Sklar (29:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   No.   Michelle (29:58) It's not hypnosis, but he gets you into a state of space, of becoming aware of space. Because when you become aware of space and everything that he does is based on science. actually has a whole research team on this. And this idea of kind of allowing this state of space, as they learn in quantum physics, you know, getting to this place where we're not locked in to the material world. We're not locked in.   We're kind of like moving back so we can allow this divine intelligence to take over. And then, and then it fixes things. It takes care of your body. does what it needs to do. Cause that's not our job. Our job is yet to direct and to intend, but our job is not to fix every single thing. When we try to do that, all we're doing is getting in the way of this divine intelligence. So I love that you're saying this because it totally like, it totally speaks the language that I'm feeling when it comes to.   fertility health and overall health like every way really.   Marc Sklar (31:00) Yeah, I agree. it's something I talk about. I have to do it, I feel like, repeatedly to the same person to get them to hear the message. And it's not intuitive. Like, personality-wise and for many of us, our goal is like, just want to fix it. I want to solve it. I want to do it. That creates this stranglehold. And so it's not intuitive for them to kind   Michelle (31:08) Yeah, because it's not common knowledge. It's not common.   Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (31:30) pull back a little bit and feel like that's moving forward. But it is.   Michelle (31:34) Yeah. Yeah, totally. Cause I mean, we have, we're conditioned to, you know, to first of all, get quick fixes. I mean, this is, we've been conditioned for years and this is all marketing for quick fixes, like quicker, faster, better, you know, and we also are conditioned to no pain, no gain. You know, you have to work for it. You have to get it. You have to be on top and   Marc Sklar (31:46) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (31:59) So over time, this is just a habit. That's going to be our knee jerk reaction or response to pretty much anything, but it's not necessarily the response your body needs.   Marc Sklar (32:10) Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's actually with the younger generation, that's only getting worse. Maybe not the no pain, no gain part, but the quick fix. That's our generation. Yeah. The younger generation is like, I don't want any pain, but I want all the gain. Yeah. And the quick fix, you know, part of it is because of the phone.   Michelle (32:20) Yeah, that might be more our generation. This is true. It's true. Yeah. I just want to be on my phone.   Dopamine.   Marc Sklar (32:39) the dopamine, but also like this, as much as Amazon has been a great service to so many people, it's a huge disservice. We, and especially the younger generation, expect everything now in a day. Right? That's the quick fix. That's like immediate gratification. Free delivery, two days. Now everyone expects free delivery and they want it there in two days. And it doesn't work like,   Michelle (32:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Marc Sklar (33:09) The world doesn't typically work that way, but they've preconditioned us to this. And that's to our detriment, right? Because that gets translated across the board to all aspects of our life. Now we want things faster. We more immediate gratification. it should have been fixed. Why didn't they get back to me, right? Like all of these things, I think that's a problem. Yeah.   Michelle (33:32) I'm like, we're on the same page. 100%. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, it just, these are mental patterns that we're constantly repeating. And I'll be honest. I mean, ever since I had my phone, I just don't feel as sharp. I don't remember as much. My attention can't stay on one thing. And even me, I'm aware of this and it's impacting me.   Marc Sklar (33:41) Mm-hmm.   Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things to do both to bother my children and because it's beneficial to them is if we need to order something from Amazon, I put it on the longest shipping option as possible. Like if it says one week or two weeks, that's what I pick. Every time. I mean, unless I like immediately need something, whatever. But like.   Michelle (34:08) that's smart.   That's actually really smart.   You need it. You'll use it when you need it.   Marc Sklar (34:18) Yeah, but like in general, I use the longer shipping option because I'm trying to retrain their minds to be like, it's not here yet. Okay, we'll come. It's not, it's not the end of the world, right? It will arrive. and usually Amazon gives you a little benefit for that delay, by the way. Yeah.   Michelle (34:36) Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It's a little cheaper. That's really smart. That is actually really, really smart. And then you can put things in one box. So it also is good for the environment. So when it comes to recurrent pregnancy loss, because you'd mentioned you're talking about chemical pregnancies and what are some of the common factors that you've seen clinically?   Marc Sklar (34:46) Yeah, and good for the environment.   Yeah.   Yeah, so chemical pregnancy could be a little bit different, but if we're talking about, you know, reoccurring pregnancy laws or, you know, multiple miscarriages, then the, there are four buckets that I put things into. The first bucket is one we have to look at and analyze, but one we potentially can't do much about, which is genetics, right? Is there some sort of genetic abnormality that's occurring potentially?   Michelle (35:24) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (35:30) due to my genetics or the combination of mine with my partners and what's that going on. I might end up with five causes actually now that I think about it. The next one is autoimmune issues. I find this is a huge reason for reoccurring pregnancy loss. will say also I find this is a big reason for secondary fertility issues.   Michelle (35:41) Hey, good.   Marc Sklar (35:59) with recurrent pregnancy loss. So secondary meaning you've been successful with the pregnancy one time or multiple times, and then at some point you're trying again and you're not successful, but in this case you've had, let's just say a loss. And so I would say I find that autoimmune issues are much more common in that situation because something happened in one of the previous pregnancies or postpartum that caused some sort of autoimmune issue that has triggered this outcome or contributed to this outcome.   Michelle (36:26) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (36:28) Another one is blood clotting factors, that there is some sort of, you know, some issue, whether that's genetic or not, because it doesn't have to be genetic, that is contributing to more clotting factors that doesn't allow for that embryo to implant properly, and you could have a miscarriage. So that's three. Four, uterine issues.   That could be wide, that could be like a bigger bubble that doesn't get talked about as frequently. So what's going on in implantation that might be contributing to that? Is there an infection, a virus, a bacteria? Is there inflammation? Is there endometriosis? What is going on inside the uterine cavity and with the endometrium that could be causing this pregnancy or multiple pregnancies to not be able to be held?   And then the last one, which is male factor. So 50 % of all miscarriages are male factor related. Most typically in those, it's going to be some sort of DNA fragmentation issue. So the DNA of the sperm has been compromised in some way and that's contributing to that loss. That's the one that unfortunately we don't talk about as much because, like why would a male...   Michelle (37:43) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (37:57) contribute to the miscarriage, you know, and they're not carrying. So that one gets ignored, but something that needs to be ruled out. So those are the, I said four, but really five, those are the five reasons that, you we should look at.   Michelle (38:10) Yeah, for sure. And also the microbiome, know vaginal microbiome can impact a lot.   Marc Sklar (38:14) Yeah, so that I look at that in that fourth one with the uterine environment. So to me, that microbiome is a piece that I look at when I'm evaluating that. Yeah.   Michelle (38:23) Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like they should always look at that, like before transfers. mean, cause people are paying so much money. And I know in Spain, it's more commonplace for them to give vaginal, suppositories for, probiotics. And I feel like it would really be very helpful for a lot of people.   Marc Sklar (38:33) Yep.   Great.   Yeah, I've started running that test much more frequently in the last year. And I can't say I run it for everybody because at some point I'm just balancing cost of things, right? Like we could run every test under the sun. It's just like, it's a matter of cost. But certainly if I see implantation failure, if I see chemical pregnancies, you know, these are the sorts of things that for sure I'll start to look at.   Michelle (38:48) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Chris. Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I mean, we could talk for hours, I love that we talked about, first of all, it's really interesting just to get your take on things and to hear from another person who's doing the same thing, But also, you know, I love the fact that you were talking about the energetics of it, because I think that when you do this long enough, you start to see patterns and you could start to see how emotions can really constrict the chi, you know, from our perspective.   Marc Sklar (39:38) Yeah, sure.   Michelle (39:39) So I think that that is really important because yes, we could look at all the little details and the numbers and the stats, but the energetics aspect, we can get so kind of like focused on the small parts. And then sometimes it's good to kind of go zoom back and see the bigger picture. So I thought what you said about that to me was very, very powerful.   Marc Sklar (40:01) Yeah, all of these things, like everything we talked about today is so valuable for those individuals who need that specific message, right? Like we're all in a different place and we all have our own journey, but hopefully, you know, the messages we shared today and the information we shared today really resonated with those who are listening.   Michelle (40:10) Yeah.   I'm sure they did for sure. mean, was a really valuable information. So it's been great having you back, Dr. Sklar. It's been too long and we should do this every so often because I feel like we're never going to really run out of things to talk about. Thank you so much for coming on.   Marc Sklar (40:34) I agree. I'm happy to be on any time. Yeah,   Yeah, I appreciate it and wishing everyone success on their journeys.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to Dr. Jeff Gross, a top Neurosurgeon who has a background specializing in athletic injuries and spine procedures. Dr. Jeff shares his journey from spinal neurosurgery to the forefront of regenerative medicine, focusing on the transformative potential of stem cells and exosomes. He explains the science behind stem cells, their applications in treating joint degeneration, and their role in anti-aging and fertility. Dr. Jeff also discusses the regulatory landscape, the cost of treatments, and the exciting future of stem cell research, including innovative approaches to enhance mitochondrial function which has a lot of promise when it comes to egg and sperm health.   Takeaways   Stem cells can be used to treat various conditions, including inflammation. Accumulation of inflammation is a key factor in aging and conception challenges. Exosomes may play a significant role in the benefits of stem cell therapy. Regenerative medicine is evolving rapidly, with new research emerging. The cost of stem cell treatments can vary but is becoming more accessible. Stem cells are sourced from well-regulated donor programs in the US. Direct injection of stem cells may yield higher doses than IV administration. Future research may explore the use of exosomes in fertility treatments. Dr. Jeff emphasizes the importance of personalized treatment plans.      Guest Bio:   Dr. Jeffrey Gross graduated from the University of California, Berkeley with a degree in biochemistry and molecular cell biology. He earned his Doctor of Medicine in 1992 from the George Washington University School of Medicine. He contributed to virology research during his studies. After graduating, he undertook a residency in neurological surgery at the University of California, Irvine Medical Center until 1997. He then pursued a Fellowship and Chief Residency in Spinal Biomechanics at the University of New Mexico until 1999. Licensed in California and Nevada, Dr. Gross has SPINE practices in Orange County and Henderson, Nevada. A trained neurological surgeon, he specializes in athletic injuries and spine procedures, and offers longevity and biohacking consultations. He achieved board certification by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and is a member of several prestigious medical societies. He has written textbooks and articles in his area of expertise and is a peer-reviewer for the state of California and a scientific journal. Since 2020, Top Doctor recognized Dr. Gross as a leading Neurological Surgeon. He also received HealthTap’s 2022 Top Doctor Award as a top Neurological Surgeon in the U.S. Dr. Gross founded ReCELLebrate, focusing on anti-aging and regenerative medicine. The mission for ReCELLebrate emphasizes offering modern biochemical treatments and considering surgery as a last resort.     Websites: https://recellebrate.com/ https://www.instagram.com/recellebrate/ https://www.tiktok.com/@recellebrate https://www.youtube.com/@stemcellwhisperer https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-gross-md-5605605/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jeff.   Dr. Jeff (00:03) Thank you so much for having me. Nice to see you.   Michelle (00:06) Nice to see you as well. So you definitely have a very long, impressive background. So I'd love for you to share your story on how you got to really to the anti-aging stem cells work that you do, So I'd love to just get a quick background so the listeners can hear.   Dr. Jeff (00:26) Sure, thank you for that. It was by accident of sorts, maybe directed accident because I was practicing as a spinal neurosurgeon, taking care mainly of neck and back trouble, some other neurological issues, nerve problems, things like that. But my practice was highly consultative, a lot of opinions, second opinions. I was seeing patients who had neck and back problems that were perhaps...   mistreated or not fully treated elsewhere. And I was kind of, I was kind of a catchall for that. But my patients came to me one at a time. And these are patients that had tried different things and they just didn't work adequately. Like physical therapy, like anti-inflammatories, like rest, like, you know, chiropractic, acupuncture, maybe spinal epidural injections or things like that.   And they'd come in and say, well, you know, help for a minute, but just wasn't enough. I'm still having a lot of trouble with my neck or back or pinch nerve or whatever. And I say, well, the next thing on the menu is to talk about surgical options. And they'd say, well, I'm not that bad. So wait a minute. Okay, good. Cause I was hoping you would say you're not ready for that. Cause I really didn't want to offer that to you. Cause I've always been on the slow to operate side of things. So, a lot of them would say, well, how about lasers or how about.   Michelle (01:37) Mm-hmm, yeah.   Dr. Jeff (01:52) herbs or how about cannabis or how about stem cells? And I heard the stem cell one more than once and chance favors the prepared mind. So my undergraduate background is in molecular cell biology, which is kind of the stem cell, know, root of stem cell biology. And, you know, when you get whisked off from undergraduate to med school and residency and practice,   you don't really get to apply that cool science. So the nerd part of me took over and said, I wonder what's happened in all these years since I went to undergraduate, you know? So instead of going to the Stodgy Neurosurgeon Convention every year, or more than one, where the same people pat themselves on the back for saying the same things for decades, I decided I'm going to open my mind and start going to stem cell and regenerative medicine meetings.   Michelle (02:46) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (02:46) So I can offer this to my spine patients. So I did that and I not only brought back a new tool to offer them, but it blossomed into so much more. You can't get access to regenerative medicine, stem cell medicine, and I'm using those phrases sort of interchangeably here, and not say, I'll help your knee or your ankle or your shoulder or your...   autoimmune issues or other hyper inflamed states. Or, you you read more and you see accumulation of inflammation is really the aging process. And if you can fight against inflammation accumulating, you're fighting against aging. So the whole anti-aging umbrella opened up and here I am, you know, six years later where spinal medicine is only a small percentage of my practice and I love it.   Michelle (03:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   That's great. So, so for people listening, some people might be like, okay, I kind of heard about stem cells, but what exactly are they? So just for people listening for the first time, we're really not understanding that aspect of like what they are. Cause we hear about it a lot. And over the years, like you said, stem cell research has really drastically changed and has gone into so many different things. Sometimes we hear about like   Dr. Jeff (03:45) So.   Yeah.   Michelle (04:12) you know, back in the day about them growing a liver, like, you know, the possibility of growing organs through stem cells. for people who are really new to this, I would love for you to break it down.   Dr. Jeff (04:15) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   sure, let's do stem cell 101. That's great. and being a fertility podcast, this is relevant probably more than any other area of medicine because fertility and creating an embryo is, you know, creating a group of stem cells that divide and grow into a fetus who's made of all stem cells, right? And then,   Michelle (04:28) Hahaha   Right.   Dr. Jeff (04:54) then that fetus is born and it's a baby and the baby grows for 18, 20, 25 years, whatever. And that growth requires stem cells. And then after that, an adult has to maintain, has to replace, has to restore, has to regenerate and that requires stem cells. So what are these? They are cells from which other cells arise, from which other cells stem from. Okay? So, and they are...   Michelle (05:20) Mm.   Dr. Jeff (05:24) They are powerful because there are different types, right? We throw out the phrase stem cells, but when you're a one cell or a two cell or a four cell embryo, you have these omnipotent cells. They can form any part of your body. They are amazingly powerful. As those divide and differentiate, meaning take on some specific characteristics, they become less powerful and more directed, and those are called pluripotent.   And a pluripotent might be able to regrow a limb. And as you, as you, and many of your listeners probably know, there are certain species that can still do that. Like a starfish, you cut off a leg of a starfish, it can regrow it. Or a tail of a lizard or a limb of an axolotl, which is a strain iguana like creature from Mexico. So there are many examples in biology where these pluripotent stem cells can be called upon. And you mentioned maybe regrowing a liver someday.   that will probably require some knowledge of pluripotent stem cells, which are being looked at. However, after these stem cells sort of retain, we bank them in our body as adults, those are called multipotent. So they can't regrow a limb, they can't regrow an organ per se, although they can replace some organ cells and regenerate. And you were always replacing cells, we're replacing skin cells and   you know, hair follicles and all kinds of things that require stem cells. If you have an injury and you cut yourself, you, require stem cells to help come repair that. and you know, we make new blood cells all the time that requires stem cells in our bone marrow. So we are using our stem cells. This is not new. We just know more about it now. And the whole move in regenerative medicine is, is to take   Michelle (07:03) Mm.   Dr. Jeff (07:19) a lesson from that biology and use it strategically to help somebody do something they need.   Michelle (07:27) So interesting. So give us a couple of examples on how it works in the body. Like for somebody who needs it, for example, whereas like a therapy.   Dr. Jeff (07:34) Well, the-   Right. So the low hanging fruit as an example, are joint degeneration. Also called arthritis or osteoarthritis vaguely, or some people it's called bone on bone if it's bad enough. Right. And these are your painful joints. It could be from an old injury, an old arthroscopic surgery. It could be from just, you know, accumulated wear and tear. And this is a problem with the joints where the cartilage   is, you know, down and the joint is painful. You can't use it as well stiffness, et cetera. And it slows people down. And when you slow people down, particularly in their older years, they're less mobile and then they can't maintain their bones, their bone density, AKA, you know, the one way to fight osteoporosis is weight bearing exercise. So if you can't, if your joints hurt, you're not going to do it. And muscle mass, cause both bone density and muscle mass are correlated with longevity. So if you keep moving.   You maintain your muscles and bones, you'll live longer statistically. So in any event, we want to preserve joints. And that's kind of why I got into this field. I'm a structural guy of the spine and it easily extrapolates to the other joints. And most of the research, the well-published research comes from knees and other joints. And just parenthetically, most of the good published research that we follow, because we're not just shooting from the hip here.   We do shoot some hips, but it comes from Asia and Europe. The United States is behind, although we can do these things. And, you know, we can talk about that later, but the short of it is we have a really good track record of helping people with degenerated joints in reducing pain and improving function. And we do have some examples with where we've done some MRIs.   Michelle (09:09) Ha ha ha!   Dr. Jeff (09:37) before and after and the after MRIs have shown some regrowth of like knee cartilage, for example, and things like that. you know, we're not allowed to make any claims because we're not yet approved for marketing claims, but I can show examples and I have to say like you invest in stocks, know, past performance does not guarantee future results or something like that, but in medicine, never, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (10:01) Right, and each person is different and unique. Yeah.   Dr. Jeff (10:05) But anyway, it's better, listen, if you want to try to avoid a joint replacement surgery, it's worth looking into. So whether it's spine or joints, so that's the easy stuff. Low hanging fruit, I call it. The other stuff is anything with an inflammatory problem in your body can potentially have benefits from regenerative medicine on its face being a natural anti-inflammatory. So for example, autoimmune problems with hyperinflammation.   You know, like rheumatoid arthritis, thyroiditis, inflammatory bowel syndromes, MS, things that have an inflammatory component. Also, most diseases of aging are diseases of inflammation. So coronary artery disease, Alzheimer's, things like this, all have an inflammatory component. And this allows me to overlap into your area is there are some causes of fertility.   issues that have an inflammatory component, whether it's a uterine issue or ovarian failure. And sometimes fighting that inflammation, whether it's through lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, mindfulness, sleep, reducing mental stress, all those things can help reduce the inflammation and help potentially lead to successful pregnancy. The same can go for use of   regenerative biologics like stem cells, and they're not the only thing we use. And there are wonderful publications. And before we got on this, I refreshed my knowledge by doing a little homework. And there are even newer publications on use of these things to improve fertility. Now, most of these are from China because they are way ahead of us. But that doesn't mean they can't be applied here outside of China.   Michelle (12:01) Interesting. So interesting. So how do they get these stem cells?   Dr. Jeff (12:07) So stem cells and other related biologic material in the US comes from a well-regulated donor program. Typically the donors are women who are planning to have a C-section. Some of the labs even recruit the donors in the first trimester, make sure they're having a healthy pregnancy, they're not using substances they shouldn't be using, they take their prenatal vitamins, they're not in any high-risk behaviors.   And at the time of the C-section, they simply, and once the mother is congratulated with her new baby, they take the amniotic fluid, they take the umbilical cord, they take the placenta and they put them on ice in a sterile fashion and they go to an FDA compliant certified lab that can test and screen the materials, make sure there's nothing in there, no diseases, no problems, and then make it available to clinics and end users like myself.   So there are myths that all kinds of crazy stuff are happening out there, but not here in the US. We use highly regulated donor processes.   Michelle (13:19) When you have the stem cells from donors, can they be multiplied or is it just like a finite amount? Whatever is there is there.   Dr. Jeff (13:28) They can be, there are labs that put them in culture, would let them grow and divide and that's one thing that can be done. Now, just like anything, a copy of a copy of a copy tends to lose its vitality. So, things like telomere length, which is an aging marker, that changes with each division of a cell. So I don't like to use a divided material.   Michelle (13:50) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (13:58) I use just fresh first pass stuff. Maybe your listeners are a little young for this, but there's a really funny movie called Multiplicity, where Michael Keaton clones himself, and each clone is a little bit wonkier than the original. if you want a good laugh, yeah, check out that movie. But in short, I prefer the actual native original self.   Michelle (14:15) Comedy used to be so much better.   Right. Got it. Is this similar to cord blood, you know, when they, when the baby's born and they say, do you, you know, you can opt to do that and then store   Dr. Jeff (14:27) When we do self,   Yeah, let's tap into that for just a second and unpack it if it's okay. know, historically you would be offered to donate or not donate, but store your umbilical cord. And the purpose of that was, God forbid your child gets leukemia in seven years, you have a matched set of cells that they culture, they do divide.   Michelle (15:01) Mm-hmm. Right.   Dr. Jeff (15:02) and replace the child's bone marrow, you don't have to worry about a donor or a match. Now you can do that and you can also use, in some labs we'll use those umbilical cord cells as a source for any other future purpose, whether it's a joint problem or what have you, they're now doing that. In fact, you can use that for family members as well. So the reasons for a bank in your umbilical cord, and they probably won't tell you in the pamphlet, because it's not yet approved for marketing claims.   Michelle (15:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (15:31) is much more than just, you know, just in case there's a case of leukemia, you need a full bone marrow replacement.   Michelle (15:39) So interesting. how, when you do have the stem cells, first of all, it must cost a fortune, it sounds like, it's limited. It's not something that you, because you're depending on donors.   Dr. Jeff (15:52) No, well, there's a little bit more to it. And that, and I keep using the phrase stem cells and other biologics. Let's, let's talk about other biologics for a minute because some of these other biologics are less expensive and here in the U S it's, it's affordable. You don't have to necessarily leave the country and go to go to central America or, you know, Hong Kong to get this or Europe. A lot of the professional athletes historically went to Europe, but they're, they're getting it here, here in the U S too.   Michelle (15:59) Okay.   Mm-hmm.   that's good.   Dr. Jeff (16:22) But we found out that if we gave you stem cells, let's say you came over and I hooked up an IV and we gave you stem cells, in 10 to 14 days, those would be out of your system. However, the benefits would go on for weeks or months or even some of the benefits would be prolonged. So why is that? If the stem cells are gone, what's going on? Well, it turns out the stem cells aren't really doing all the work. The stem cells are delivering cell to cell communicating and influential   Michelle (16:31) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (16:52) biomolecules, peptides, growth factors, small RNAs from cell, from the stem cells to your cells, reinvigorating and activating your cells to do that work. And those, those communication packets are called extracellular vesicles or for short exosomes. And you may have seen this, a lot of estheticians use them. You know, they can do the atom to your microneedle facial.   Michelle (17:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (17:20) It's sort of an advanced vampire facial with these exosomes. So the exosomes are probably doing most of the work that the stem cells were doing. And there are advantages. They penetrate tissue better. They're easier to store and handle. They'll cross the blood brain barrier if you want them in your brain and nervous system. And they're less than half the price of stem cells. So we can do things that used to cost, you know, 20, $30,000 out of this country.   for less than half of that here, because the big cost is the materials, these biologics. So what does it cost was your original question, but now that you know we're using these exosomes preferentially in a lot of these cases. And by the way, as an aside, all stem cells, sorry, start over, all cells make exosomes. We're using stem cell derived exosomes from amniotic fluid, which is quite abundant. So there are really no cells in this.   Michelle (18:11) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (18:19) There's no matching that needs to be done. and it's, it's wonderful. So, the, you know, for example, treating a knee, if we're trying to repair a knee, help someone heal a knee, we're asking their cells to do the work. We're just providing the, the, the re-instruction to tap back into the original factory that made that joint in the first place. And something that like that is kind of two doses of biologics, one above one below the knee.   the injection, the facility and everything where we do it as sterile. All that is, you know, in the nine to 12,000, depending on what we're doing. So it's not, it's not crazy. And IVs, if we do an IV, that's anywhere from like 4,000 to 8,500, depending on the dose.   Michelle (18:54) Mm-hmm.   And how many times would somebody have to do that?   Dr. Jeff (19:07) Maybe once. Usually the joints are one and done and then they go back to their normal wear and tear. So is it possible someone's going to come back in in 20 years and need it again maybe, but that's okay. We follow a French protocol that has published 15 year follow-up and we follow that protocol how they do it. And they've had over 82 % of the patients had wonderful results at the 15 year mark. We're waiting for them to publish the 20 year mark.   Michelle (19:10) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (19:35) So we're not making this up. We're just duplicating what's already been done and good science that's out there.   Michelle (19:42) And for inflammatory conditions, autoimmune conditions, or even fertility, well, you know, because it's secondary to that a lot of times. Do you use IV? So really get it right into the bloodstream. Okay.   Dr. Jeff (19:51) Right, right.   Yeah, I would definitely. yeah. Yeah. And that's how we approach anti-aging anyway. People are biohackers, anti-agers that come in. This is what we do. And we, we do an IV. We, we try to figure out a dose that makes sense for that person based on the budget and their age and maybe their inflammatory markers and their blood tests and other things. And then we see how long it lasts. And some people get a year, two years. Some people get, you know, six months.   Some people come in preventively and do every three months a lower dose. just, we customize it for the individual.   Michelle (20:33) And that crosses the blood brain barrier. So it's good for brain health, really for just everything. The system.   Dr. Jeff (20:37) Yeah. Anywhere there's an inflammatory burden, we'll do it. But exosomes do cross the blood-brain barrier. And let me go off script here for a second. For listeners that have been pregnant before, in later trimesters, a pregnant woman has glowing skin and her hair is growing wonderfully. And typically, there's not a lot of joint pain, maybe   Michelle (20:43) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (21:06) low back pain from carrying the weight, why is that woman in, you know, not having this great skin and all that, it's because that woman is getting a daily dose of stem cell derived exosomes because they also not only cross the blood brain barrier, they cross the placental barrier. So what we do is almost simulate that in a single dose.   Michelle (21:25) Mm-hmm. Got it.   That's so interesting. in that case, when you are doing IV, is that also one and done?   Dr. Jeff (21:37) No, like I was saying, it depends on what benefits someone gets and for how long they last. It could be depending on the person's need. Now, if it's someone who's got an inflammatory problem and they're just trying to get pregnant, could be a one and done. If it's someone that has benefited from it and wants to do it repetitively, then we would help support that and make it available.   Michelle (21:43) I see.   Mm-hmm. Done.   Have you heard of this being used and injected directly into like uterus or those areas or is it typically more like IV?   Dr. Jeff (22:11) So not into the uterus, although there are examples in men of injecting the testes where they're not producing adequate sperm counts. I think IV would be a first. So I didn't read anything about ovarian injection yet. Could that be coming? Possibly. IV is obviously an easier thing to do. So I would try the IV first. But you're right, you're going to get a higher dose if you inject directly.   Michelle (22:20) Mm-hmm.   Or ovaries maybe?   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (22:40) That might be something to look at. haven't done it. We do have some sexual health shots we do at the exosomes now where we do P shots and O shots for men and women respectively for improvement in sensation, lubrication, that kind of.   Michelle (22:53) Mm-hmm.   I know that they do PRP with the ovaries and I think also uterus. So that's why I was asking because it's kind of similar, you doesn't have the same exact substance, but it's the idea of stimulating.   Dr. Jeff (23:14) No, I completely agree with that. PRP is basically a very lower, it's the lowest end self-donated regenerative medicine. And it probably contains some cells and some exosomes in there.   Michelle (23:21) Mm-hmm. Right.   So interesting. that's really fascinating. for you specifically, like if people wanted to work with you, do they have to come visit you, your office, where you are?   Dr. Jeff (23:38) Not necessarily. So, you know, most of what we do, we start out remotely. The vast majority of my patients come from somewhere other than Las Vegas, where I'm located, actually Henderson, Nevada, which is a suburb of Las Vegas. Most people start remotely. We do a lot of the blood tests or if they need MRIs or what have you remotely, and we only invite them to come to town if there's a reason to come to town. We do have some other colleagues in other parts of the states too that can do IVs.   things like that so we can sometimes refer. Yeah.   Michelle (24:09) Mm-hmm. It's really fascinating. It seems like state of the art. It's like the new thing that's coming out.   Dr. Jeff (24:13) and   It's a, and there are things coming. if you'll allow me to just jump there for a second. you know, we are working on some projects here at, at my practice. one of them involves exosomes that are stuffed with extra mitochondria. And for those of you that don't know, that's a small part within the cell. It's kind of a cell within the cell. we learned in high school biology, it was the powerhouse of the cell. made the energy, but it actually does much more.   Michelle (24:22) of course. Yeah.   Hmm   Dr. Jeff (24:46) And some causes of infertility relate to poor mitochondrial activity in the cells of the ovaries and things like that. So we're looking at exosomes that could be overstuffed with, that can donate more mitochondria. So that could be very useful. There are many other reasons to do that as well. And then we're even involved in a project that may be useful to help patients with cancer. And this is a particular exosome.   that comes from a certain type of immune cell, a T cell in our body, whose job is to identify, circulate around the body, identify, and then selectively remove or kill an abnormal cell like a cancer cell. So imagine that as an augmentative therapy or even as a preventative. Yeah, so we're hot on that trail. That's coming soon to a, to a re-celebrate clinic near you.   Michelle (25:36) That's fantastic.   I love that. That's awesome. That's really amazing. And what have you seen so far in regards to fertility? you seen people do this treatment and it work? with fertility, there's so many different reasons for why. I mean, it could be so many different. It's really a range of underlying conditions, but what have you noticed so far?   Dr. Jeff (26:03) Correct. So honestly, I don't have a fertility practice that's pretty far afield from what I do. I do a lot of structural work, a lot of joints, a lot of spine. We do some autoimmune and a few other things. But I have talked to colleagues, fertility specialists in the past, and we've talked about exosomes. I was at a biohacking conference in Texas last year.   Michelle (26:11) Yeah.   Dr. Jeff (26:32) the Dave Asprey event and someone came up to me and asked me about fertility. So I know it's on my radar. It's just not something we put out there necessarily. had one gentleman that had low sperm count. We had talked about doing something for him, but he didn't do it yet.   Michelle (26:34) Mm-hmm.   But have you seen or through colleagues or any studies that have shown even just IV, doing this with IV that it's helped?   Dr. Jeff (27:00) I've only read the abstract of some of the Chinese studies because we don't always get the full article translated. But most of those studies speak to direct injection. They have a lot of animal studies. So I don't have information on the clinical use of...   Michelle (27:07) Okay.   Dr. Jeff (27:25) exosomes personally for fertility, but I know that others have talked to me about it. So it's being done. And I, I did look it up online before we met today and you can actually find, there was a clinic in Europe that was advertising it for this purpose for fertility. Yeah.   Michelle (27:31) Mm-hmm.   Interesting. Yeah, which I'm sure people don't really have to go all the way to Europe. I'm sure also if you get the IV and your body's going through this anti-aging and your mitochondria are benefiting and also, which is very much linked to aging eggs. So you want to like revitalize and reawaken and also lower inflammation that also helps with egg quality and sperm quality.   Dr. Jeff (27:54) and   Michelle (28:08) So this is just definitely something that I found when I saw you, I was like, this is really interesting. I think that it's something that people should be hearing about. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, a lot of fertility clinics are going to start looking into this as well.   Dr. Jeff (28:26) Yeah, no, the one that was advertising is an international fertility group, I think, in Eastern Europe. And they specifically have a webpage on this. Now, we can't have those webpages here in the US because we are not yet approved for marketing claims.   Michelle (28:32) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Right.   It's so interesting how all that works. But yeah, this is great. This is a really interesting topic and really great information. I love like cutting edge stuff. I love that it's kind of like to be continued because you're still like, You already have learned so much, but of course, there's so much more coming, which is exciting. I find it really exciting.   Dr. Jeff (29:00) Yeah.   I do too. have this renewed interest. know, I'm, I'm a self admitted nerd. So this is, gets me back into things that are very exciting. I don't get to do the same thing day after day anymore. that's, that's.   Michelle (29:19) I love that.   Yeah, for sure. So awesome. So for people who want to learn more about you and what you do, how can they find you?   Dr. Jeff (29:30) Check out Re-Celebrate because you're celebrating the renewal of your cells. That's spelled R-E-C-E-L-L-E-B-R-A-T-E. And that is our website is recelebrate.com. Instagram is recelebrate at recelebrate it. LinkedIn, Pinterest, YouTube, but just type in recelebrate, you'll find it.   Michelle (29:52) Awesome. And you'll find it also in the episode notes. So I'll share all the links in there, as well as information about Dr. Jeff. So this is a great conversation. This is really, really great. And I appreciate you coming on and explaining it so nicely and really breaking it down for us, you know, people that don't have that background. So thank you so much for coming on today, Dr. Jeff.   Dr. Jeff (30:03) Yeah.   you   It's been my pleasure, thank you for having me.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Caryn Johnson of @_bondlife shares her personal journey through infertility, detailing her struggles with unexplained infertility and the eventual discovery of autoimmune issues affecting her reproductive health. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the immune system's role in fertility and the impact of lifestyle factors such as diet, stress, and environmental toxins. Caryn advocates for women to take charge of their health by educating themselves and seeking out supportive healthcare practitioners. She also discusses her supplement line, Bond, which aims to address these issues holistically.   Takeaways   Caryn's journey began with unexplained infertility. She experienced multiple failed IVF attempts. The immune system plays a crucial role in fertility. Many women with unexplained infertility have underlying immune issues. Stress and lifestyle factors significantly impact reproductive health. Gut health is linked to fertility and autoimmune conditions. Caryn's research led her to create a supplement line, Bond. Advocacy and education are essential for women facing infertility. Environmental toxins can affect fertility outcomes. Women should empower themselves with knowledge about their health.   Guest Bio:   Caryn Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of BOND, an innovative line of supplements reimagining hormone and reproductive health, inspired by her experience with infertility. The former Vital Proteins Chief Marketing Officer launched BOND in the Fall of 2023, fusing her professional expertise with her passion to help women take a more proactive and empowered approach to caring for their cycle and reproductive health.   In 2017, when trying to start a family, Caryn learned she was autoimmune infertile. What she discovered was a stark reality - the lack of open conversations and support for women facing similar struggles. The doctor's office often left much unsaid, and the information available was surprisingly scarce. Shocked by the limited support system in place, Caryn recognized the need for a change. She leaned on her industry knowledge and contacts to advocate for herself and uncover invaluable resources. Her personal journey became a catalyst for a larger mission to make her learnings accessible to women everywhere. It was this experience that led her to create BOND.    A natural born innovator, Caryn is disrupting the marketplace with this new line of products that offers women the opportunity to take control of their reproductive health before it’s too late. BOND’s proprietary formulations, designed to preserve fertility potential and lay the foundation for a healthier body, feature science-backed ingredients that work together to balance hormones, protect egg health, and provide cycle support. With BOND, Caryn aims to address women’s health more holistically and encourage a more proactive conversation around reproductive wellness.    Caryn’s career began in marketing and public relations where she worked with many notable beauty brands and PR firms before being recruited as the fifth employee at then startup, Vital Proteins. She was the first marketing hire at the organization and ultimately, became the company’s Chief Marketing Officer leading the team through the brand’s acquisition by Nestle Health Sciences. Following her tenure at Vital Proteins, Caryn took on the challenge of leading Owlet, a baby monitor company focused on preventing SIDS, where she served as Chief Marketing Officer and successfully guided the company through its initial public offering.   Caryn lives in Chicago with her husband and two children Elijah and Ruthie.    You can use coupon code THEWHOLESOME for 20% off all products. https://bond.life       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Karin.   Caryn Johnson (00:02) Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:05) It's so nice to meet you. And I know that you do a lot of amazing work helping women I also know that you have your own story that you can share. And I would love to hear your story and really what got you inspired to do the work that you're doing.   Caryn Johnson (00:21) Yeah, absolutely. So I'm here to share really the start of how I got to where I am today. And that really is rooted in finding out that I couldn't get pregnant. So we can start there and then we can get into all of the details together. But my husband and I met when I was young, early 20s. And by the time we got married many years later, we were already   most right away to start having a family. There was a piece of me inside that knew that I was gonna have some sort of issue. I don't know, you already mentioned that you do visualizations to me before we started. So, you know, like I just had this feeling whether I manifested it for myself or not. I, you know, we did the full year of trying to get pregnant to no success and then went back to our doctor.   Michelle (01:03) Yeah, yeah.   Caryn Johnson (01:18) my typical OB-GYN and started the path of IUIs, did four IUIs, had beautiful eggs, each IUI, and reacted to the medicine quite well, but never got a positive from any of those. So we were recommended to move towards IVF. found a reproductive endocrinologist in Chicago, which is where I was located at the time.   started the path to IVF and went through the process of an egg retrieval. Ended up seeing similar to what we saw in the IUIs, which was that my reproductive system performed quite well. And I was able, they were able to retrieve just about 30 eggs from one retrieval, which is quite high, borderline too high, but.   just shows like the reaction to the medicine and the overall viability of my reproductive system. Of that, I had really normal odds and was able to bank close to 14, I believe, quality grade embryos. So I was really excited to move into implantation because at that point,   I just really thought like whatever was unexplained is just kind of, you know, over to the side now. you know, all these things are just working out in my favor. So this is gonna be, you know, it for me, which a lot of women I feel like go into IVF feeling like the IVF center is like the place where you get your baby, which isn't always true. So.   I started doing implantations and I started losing babies. Prior to that point, I had never even tested positive in any sort of like regard for a pregnancy test. And I wasn't one of those that, you know, jumped right off birth control, you know, to move into conception. I hadn't been on birth control for many, many, many, many years, you know, prior to this point. But the implantations started failing and   My doctor said, this embryo was only attached for two hours, maybe a couple of hours is what they said. I just thought, how on earth, like why on earth would something attach for just a couple of hours and then that be the situation where   It just doesn't work out from there. Like what is happening? And you know, got immediately, the immediate response was bad odds. You know, this happens, miscarriage happens. Just keep going. You know, one in four, in eight, you you get all the stats and there's definitely a piece of that when you're not working with really good quality embryos. But you know, I was, I knew that everything was genetically great. knew.   and had no reason to believe that my body wasn't in working order to, you know, produce a pregnancy. So I just started pushing harder and getting a little bit more more fearful of continuing down the path of losing babies because I just, it hit me so hard. Even the loss of two hours, I mean,   I just like, I've never felt sorrow like that. And I didn't, I just didn't feel like myself or really anyone should have to like continue down that path for like the sake of odds. So I started doing my own research and I was at the time experiencing some issues in my digestive system. I also now looking back had a definite cortisol issue.   which relates into the picture, but I was a CMO at Vital Proteins at the time, which is that blue tub collagen company. And so I had a high stress level and I knew that something was going on in my digestive system. This was, you know, 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017. So.   Michelle (05:39) yeah.   Caryn Johnson (05:58) almost prior to when we really started, you know, as a world, as a community talking about the microbiome and gut health. But I sought out a naturopath who ended up doing a blood panel on me and told me that I had, you know, hundreds of food sensitivities, which is a   a classic sign of gut dysbiosis, but at the time it wasn't translated back to like an issue in the microbiome. It was treated as like, yes, you have all of these, you have all of these issues with, you know, different foods, just avoid them. And that will be the solve versus, why do you have like, you know, why do you have a hundred things that you can't eat?   Michelle (06:42) Hmm.   Caryn Johnson (06:46) like watermelon seeds up to your typical gluten, et cetera. So I just started doing my own research online and I found a book called, Is My Body Baby Friendly? It's written by Dr. Alan Beer, who is now deceased, but it's over 700 pages of the science of how the immune system works with your reproductive system, your hormones, et cetera.   in order to effectively procreate or in order for conception and implantation to occur. And that's when I realized there was something greater going on in my body outside again of just my reproductive system that we just hadn't figured out yet. So I read the book Front to Back. It's a very science heavy book. So I had to do a lot of like   thinking about new terms and figuring and trying to remember what I was learning. At the end of the book, there was a recommendation at the time, there are more doctors now, but at the time for three doctors that practice this type of medicine, which is the field of reproductive immunology. And so,   Michelle (08:01) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (08:03) One of those doctors, Dr. Joanne Kwok-Kam of Rosalind Franklin ended up being in my backyard essentially 45 minutes away in the Chicago area. So I took that as a sign that I needed to call and get additional help above and beyond my RE who was doing the IVF. And I called over there and was immediately put on a six month wait list.   So proceeded with the next round of IVF because I was already on some hormones. So I was already going through the round. I had at that point only done my own research. So I wasn't really sure what was going on in my body or if I could believe what I had read because my doctors that were helping me with the IVF weren't really like saying that   They believed in the immunology side of things. They hadn't seen enough research, et cetera. So I wasn't really getting support on what I was researching. So it was around the holidays, October-ish, when I ended up calling into the clinic and I ended up getting a call right around   Thanksgiving that they had a cancellation and I got moved up on the wait list. So I ended up getting into the reproductive immunology clinic many months before they said I would two weeks before my next IVF transfer and that was just an awesome Hail Mary. They did a full ultrasound. So tip to toe thyroid, you know, your whole stomach area inside and outside.   And then they do the craziest blood panel that I've ever done. don't know how you can even draw that much blood, but vials and vials of blood to look at immune markers in addition to hormone markers, vitamin markers, and your typical blood panel. And they called me back 48 hours later and said, need to cancel this implantation. You have the highest level of antibodies that we've ever seen.   not that we've ever seen, but that we're able to track. So you're past like where the chart goes essentially. So if you proceed with your implantation, it's almost definitely gonna end in a miscarriage because your body is gonna fight it off. And at that point I was terrified because that was like the first real something's actually wrong with you that I had heard.   Michelle (10:21) wow.   Wow.   Caryn Johnson (10:50) Everything else was just unexplained, unexplained, unexplained. And I just went into shock. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to believe. You know, I had two sets of doctors saying different things. So I proceeded with the implantation and I ended up implanting both a boy and a girl embryo. And then   started treatment right away on my immune system through the reproductive immunologist. So what they did was they put me on a series of pretty intense medications to quiet my immune system. And then I did what is called IVIG, which are blood transfusions or infusions that essentially look   to wash your blood of the antibodies that are over protecting the immune system. So I went into this protocol and I ended up getting pregnant. It was positive right away. we saw, so the clinic ended up treating me one to three times a week with this IVIG infusion, which they're about two to three hours long based on, they're based on body weight.   Michelle (11:50) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (12:14) I was in their office, you know, at least one to two times a week, also for an ultrasound. So I knew by five weeks that both embryos had attached. you know, at that point, my immune markers were even more all over the place. We couldn't get my immune system to a stable level by any means. And I ended up losing the girl embryo at seven weeks.   her heartbeat slowed and then ultimately it stopped, which is one of the symptoms or issues when you have an autoimmune issue going into a pregnancy. So, you know, that was so sad and devastating and she was higher up in the womb than the boy embryo. So at that point,   It was pretty much 50-50 odds of if she was going to end up coming out and bringing him with her or if she was going to be what's called a vanishing twin, which is when your body reabsorbs the pregnancy for the sake of the other pregnancy, which is really the best case scenario because then you don't lose the other baby.   Michelle (13:18) my gosh.   Caryn Johnson (13:36) I was put on bed rest. This was the start of my bed rest between six and seven weeks, which continued until I gave birth, basically. I was able to go to work, but that was pretty much it. And I lived in fear that we were going to lose a little boy, but I ended up reabsorbing the girl embryo. So she never came out and we just really aggressively treated my immune system.   which held on until 34 weeks when I went into basically how the immune system works during the pregnancy is during the first trimester, there is more inflammation that can be in the body and then it has to subside for the second trimester to continue successfully and then your inflammation increases and that's   eventually causes or is part of why you go into labor. But my inflammation and my immune system increased really fast. my water broke early and I ended up having him, you know, early but he was healthy because some of the immune medications included steroids. So he was a little bit bigger than, you know, your typical   34, 35 weaker. But I was able to carry my son and that really started my story of what the heck happened and why is autoimmunity so under researched when it comes to your reproduction and your fertility chances and how can I actually do more now that I have my children here.   Michelle (15:06) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (15:33) to support other women so they don't have to go through this amount of trauma, right? But also this amount of like research and advocacy for themselves because at the end of the day, like we just can't expect that from everyone and we shouldn't. We should be able to support. Yeah, so I'll take a breath there.   Michelle (15:40) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Wow, that's incredible story. And I mean, it's it's mind boggling, you know, that, nobody really talks about something that is so prevalent. And I do see that a lot, actually. And it could be the reason why you have unexplained infertility or why transfers don't work. And I speak to Amy Ralph, Amy Ralph, she's a   Caryn Johnson (16:19) Yeah.   Michelle (16:20) she does the same thing, Chinese medicine. And she talks about this a lot. She says, if you miscarry or you have repeated transfer failures with a good embryo and your doctor doesn't look into like what your lining is doing and how your immune system is working, then go to a different doctor because it's so important to look into that because you could spend so much time.   and you can spend so much money and just so many precious years going through so much loss for something that could be treated but can also be prevented. So I'd love to actually get your input on what you've discovered and how the gut relates to it but maybe other things that you've noticed or learned for the listeners.   Caryn Johnson (16:59) Absolutely.   Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're saying is just incredibly important. Like the immune system, I feel like is the secret starting point to a lot of issues. And what's happening in medicine right now is a lot of women are walking away with an unexplained infertility diagnosis, but they're accepting that as a diagnosis, right? When it's not, it's just, it's not an answer.   And if you look underneath kind of that answer, you see a lot of crazy statistics, such as over 65 % of women who have unexplained infertility actually have an issue in their immune system. And then similarly over 60 % have an issue in their metabolic system. So blood sugar, insulin, know, early signs of PCOS, et cetera. And then.   Michelle (18:05) You   Caryn Johnson (18:10) When you look, you see that there are deep, deep nutrient deficiencies happening in this group of women as well. So you're looking at vitamin D deficiencies, vitamin B deficiencies, magnesium, omegas. All of these start with modulations that occur in the immune system as well. So when you think about it on a deeper level and from the research that I've done,   Michelle (18:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm, yeah.   Caryn Johnson (18:39) you're looking at something that's happened to you before it's affecting your hormones and triggering one of these other issues in your reproductive system. So like for instance, not only do I have, you know, autoimmune infertility, I do carry PCOS and adenomyosis as well. And for me, and based on the research that I've done, those are secondary factors.   to my immune system modulating and creating an overly inflammatory environment in my body, which then produced those issues. So we're not going up far enough in the chain of our bodies as to understanding our full systems. And again, it kind of goes back to like what's happening in medicine, which is that our doctors are   Classically trained in our reproductive organs, right? So they know our uterus they know our ovaries they understand how those work, but we need to get into you know, a new phase where we have Practitioners that understand how all of the systems are working together in our body Including our immune system and our endocrine system because they do have such a big and almost starting impact   Michelle (19:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (20:07) on what's happening with our fertility.   Michelle (20:10) yeah, I completely agree. And I also I'm wondering, like, what have you seen? Because I think that when you talked about the food sensitivities, you were saying that it's okay, I'm allergic to so many things, or I'm sensitive to so many things, but why? So like, what are the things that you've seen that cause it to begin with?   Caryn Johnson (20:28) Yeah.   Yeah. So there are a couple of things that I see as a starting factors. One is overall stress. So if you can't keep your stress in check, you can't keep your cortisol levels in check, then your adrenal function will not perform in the rest of your hormones will not function correctly, which then trickles into some of these other problems. and then you get into other factors like what you're putting in your body.   the nutrition that you have or you don't have. They're saying the American diet is still between 60 and 80 % processed food. So we're putting still mostly junk into our systems that's modulating and creating these environments that we don't want. Number three is dysbiosis of the gut, right? Which is a huge factor in   Michelle (21:13) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (21:31) overall well-being and then your chances at fertility because what happens is that if your gut is in dysbiosis, your mucosal lining is disrupted and all of the toxins that are supposed to be in this like, think of it like pipe in your body, piped to get to the outside are now permeating that pipe and moving into your system and causing again, these major inflammation issues.   these, this uproar of immune response that is hard to counteract. You know, once you have that level of bacteria and then toxins that are entering the bloodstream. And then the last kind of reason that you would be kind of in this situation is just based on what's going on in your environment. So are you living in a city, you know,   that a lot of people in Detroit, for instance, there's a bigger rate of infertility there versus, you know, your non-city residents. It's also based on the toxins that enter your home. So are you getting rid of your plastics? Are you looking at the cleaning supplies you're using, the makeup you're putting on your face? It seems simple, but this toxic overload, again,   Michelle (22:52) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (22:55) creates this inflammatory response, which modulates your immune system. So those are really the four categories that kind of put you in this place. And then it kind of gets into epigenetics, which is like, you know, you've created this new world for yourself that your body has become. And, you know, is it going to be like that or are you going to be able to get yourself out of it?   Michelle (23:23) Yeah. my God. It's so important and it's true. We hear all the different factors and actually those toxins and the endocrine disruptors can be found in food, I mean, through pesticides and that can also impact your gut dysbiosis. so it's just, it's like an entangled web and it really is like a reflection of how we're living today and what's allowed in this country, which   Caryn Johnson (23:38) Yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (23:50) I'm starting to get more and more frustrated with, you know, the fact that other countries are protecting their citizens more from chemicals and pesticides and things that are harming not only our health and chronic disease, also future. it's, it's unbelievable. And for that reason, I often tell people just go gluten free. It's not that.   Caryn Johnson (23:58) Yeah.   Gosh, get me started on glyphosate. It's so sad.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (24:16) It's not that wheat is bad. And actually, as a matter of fact, a lot of people don't have those same responses if they go to Spain or Italy, even though it's not considered GMO, they have genetically modified it over the years. So there's so many aspects. So sometimes I'm just like, just remove it, And I see people feeling a lot better.   Caryn Johnson (24:26) Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (24:41) just from that, and especially with autoimmune conditions, actually that like going gluten free can really help. That's what I've seen.   Caryn Johnson (24:50) Yeah, no, definitely. It's just our food source is really sad. And it's just, it's so hard to pinpoint at the end of the day because no one really has the exact answer. But I just like, you see the data, like women who are eating on a Mediterranean diet have a lower risk of endometriosis.   Michelle (24:55) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (25:15) women who have like vitamin sources through green leafy vegetables don't have as much PMS. So like the correlations are there. It's just like, how do we get people to make better decisions for their body and understand like, don't be me, don't make bad decisions and then get into a position where you can't have the life that you wanted or dreamed of, or you have to fight so hard for it because   Michelle (25:16) Right.   Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (25:43) of choices you made earlier in your life from lack of knowledge, you know?   Michelle (25:47) Right. Yeah, totally. And then I also look at the nervous system, which is what you're, I feel like it's really linked to the cortisol issue, like the high stress, because we're constantly being bombarded with too much information. Really, I think too much information that our nervous system is able to translate. And I think that takes a trickle down effect into our bodies. I'm very big on like mind body because of that, you know, like that, that's one aspect, but of course, I mean, there's so many   Caryn Johnson (26:02) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (26:16) Like I said, it's like a web and every single piece matters. And that's what you were talking about before with medicine, looking at the body as a whole, as a functioning system, rather than just one part.   Caryn Johnson (26:21) you   Right, right. And just going back to your comment on cortisol, you know, a lot of it does start with cortisol because if you put yourself into too high of a cortisol state, your body doesn't produce enough hormones. It basically triggers all of your other hormones to act inappropriately. It goes into your progesterone receptor.   Michelle (27:00) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (27:00) pretends it's progesterone and then it goes on your thyroid and says slow down, slow down. Your body doesn't have enough energy for this and your thyroid slows. So it's really like easy to dismiss like, yeah, I'm so stressed but I don't have to be stressed today and to understanding like if your body is in a constant state of stress, like the impact it can truly have on your system and on your hormones because   Michelle (27:27) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (27:30) I guess also people think of like cortisol is like over here and then estrogen and progesterone as like over here because they work through different axes of the body, right? But it's all related because if you knock one off, you're messing with the others. So I just, I wish people ultimately would understand that cortisol is a huge starting factor to their fertility journey as well.   Michelle (27:38) Mm-hmm.   Right. Yes.   Caryn Johnson (27:57) and to a hormone journey if they're not on the road to fertility.   Michelle (28:02) Yes, because ultimately the body's always going to favor survival. And when you're in high cortisol, your body's basically or something is signaling your body to let it know it's not safe. So when you're constantly in this state of feeling unsafe, your body's going to worry about other things and put off other factors that it would normally pay attention to when you do feel safe.   Caryn Johnson (28:08) Yeah.   Right.   Michelle (28:32) And being in this chronically is just not conducive to high vitality period.   Caryn Johnson (28:32) Right.   Yeah, I feel like at least we're in a better state of mind, like as a world where, you know, 10 years ago it was chic and cool to be like chronically stressed and like drinking like three cups of coffee in the morning and like running yourself ragged. Like I feel like everyone understands a little bit more that they shouldn't. It's just about like knowing your body and actually being able to say to yourself like, no, this isn't how I should.   Michelle (28:52) It's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (29:09) be feeling. This isn't how I want to keep stress or maintain like my day-to-day life.   Michelle (29:17) No doubt that we are getting educated like never before. like, it's, it's one of those things that when like the information comes out and we start to open our eyes, it's painful because we're realizing things that are not working. However, even though it's painful, it's actually helping us in the long run. And it's kind of like the, blessing and the curse of social media and all of the technology, but the blessing is information.   Caryn Johnson (29:28) Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (29:45) that is very important for us to know it's important for us to receive. So that aspect of it is really important. And then talk to us about your supplement product bond. And I know that you created that based on really your own frustration and it's become your baby. And I want to know what specifically or how does that address autoimmunity conditions for people who are going through that or?   Caryn Johnson (30:03) Yeah.   Michelle (30:14) least thinking maybe to look into their immunity in regards to their fertility, listening to this.   Caryn Johnson (30:21) Yeah, absolutely. So I launched Bond just about a year ago. I concepted it. took a year prior to that from concept to launch.   So really it started in the world of advocacy for me. I was just really looking to help other women getting involved in some Facebook groups, some communities. you know, there's not a lot of knowledge, a lot of people talking about this yet. There certainly wasn't, you know, even just a few years ago. so I, I took a speaking opportunity in Detroit and   I went to Wayne State University, which is where they do a lot of the research for autoimmune infertility. the main head of that clinic asked me to come and speak to the researchers because they do all of this research and it's isolated into their facility. They don't actually see the impact of what's going on with women who are going through this.   Michelle (31:24) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (31:25) so I got to share my story and, you know, had a really nice day there learning and seeing their facility, their lab, what's going on. And on the drive home is really when it clicked for me that there's a lack of, or there's a gap in what's going on research wise and, know, what's being discussed and what's being carried out and brought to.   the consumer or the public's attention. And I just felt like if I didn't take a larger stand to do something bigger to help women, that we'd be many, many more years behind even. So I went back to my house in Chicago, sat in my basement and did just clinical research for months. And I logged over 300 clinical studies, all centered around   the immune system and how it relates to hormones to the reproductive system and built my thinking for original skews, which were, which are daily balance, which is our best seller conception boost, vitality, and cycle care on this thinking first. so it really started with research before it was brought forward to healthcare practitioners and then formulated out.   And a lot of the research that went into each of the products is above and beyond supporting the reproductive organs. So when you look at daily balance as a whole, it has 15 vitamins and nutrients in it. And a lot of those vitamins and nutrients were chosen to not only support hormone balance, but to take that up a level and to support the immune system as it relates to being a predecessor to hormone balance. So   adding a vitamin D, which is a huge hormone regulator, putting fiber, five grams of it into a supplement so that women are potentially protecting their gut lining better and producing those short chain fatty acids that are going to protect their gut in a way that just probiotics don't. Adding in a probiotic blend that   we studied as being healthy strains, or not healthy strains, but strains from healthy fertile women. So really focusing on these immune factors and how they pull into the world of fertility. But to the public now, you know, almost simplifying that message and making it more of like the underlying theme because we're still not necessarily totally there.   so the ingredients exists in these formulas with so much thinking and thought as it relates to the whole body. and then the formulas come out and, they're focused on hormone balance, right? As well as we have a conception product, and then we have our cycle care product, which is focused on, PMS support. So PMS, symptom alleviation, and then hormone detoxification.   Michelle (34:16) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (34:44) So they all have an immune angle, also address a hormonal need.  And the other great thing too is that you can shop at a discount as a special thanks for listening to us here. You can head over to the link. We'll link it here with this podcast episode and use the code, the wholesome to get 20 % off your order.     Michelle (34:54) Awesome. And do you have information on your site, just like support for people wanting to learn more?   Caryn Johnson (35:00) Yeah.   Yeah, absolutely. we're starting to add more and more to our site. I wrote a white paper on how the microbiome affects fertility that you can download off of our website as well to get more information. And yeah, we share a lot on social too with, you know, article connections there. So that's another great way to keep up with kind of like up and coming research that we're seeing.   Michelle (35:32) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (35:33) But yeah, I would say too, just going back to one other thing you mentioned earlier on the, on the doctor front, the best thing to do as a consumer, like when you're hitting these issues is to bring the articles in and show them to your doctor and choose advocacy for yourself. Because I found that the response from them is far greater when you have data in your hands as to why you want to.   Michelle (35:51) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (36:03) add a supplement, think about a different form of medication, think about a different program that might make sense for your system. So I would say, you know, that is as important as ever. And, you know, what we try to do more and more is link that PIMD article, like when we post something so that you can find the actual source and see for yourself, you know?   Michelle (36:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (36:31) read the information and make smart decisions.   Michelle (36:31) Mm-hmm.   I love that. That's great. I'm all about empowerment. think that we need a lot of that now. So this is great information. I really appreciate you sharing your story for people listening. And for people who want to find you and learn more, how can they find you?   Caryn Johnson (36:41) Yeah.   Thank   Sure, so our website is bond.life. Our Instagram is underscore bond life and we're, you know, a newer company. I'm still really involved on our social. So we love to take DMs and interact with people one-on-one that way. If you have any questions or want to get into, you know, what you might be experiencing and what our different products are, like we're happy to get into it with you and.   I will say for anyone that wants to shop on bond on our website, absolutely love to support you. And again, really the place to start with, with us is our daily balance product. has the baseline of nutritionals you need to support your   nutrients stores, your hormonal balance, and of course, your immune system. that is our purple bag on the website there. But Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.   Michelle (37:57) Yeah, it was great having you on and having this conversation, which I feel like is so important because it is kind of like the big question mark that a lot of people are facing when they're trying to conceive. So thank you so much for coming on.   Caryn Johnson (38:09) Yeah, you're welcome.        

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sonia Ribas @soniaribascoach shares her journey from a marketing executive to a fertility coach, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to fertility. She discusses common challenges faced by individuals trying to conceive, the often unnecessary reliance on IVF, and the critical role of personalized treatment plans. Sonia highlights the impact of oxidative stress on fertility and the significance of mindfulness and community support in the fertility journey. Her insights aim to empower individuals and couples navigating the complexities of fertility.   Takeaways:   Sonia transitioned from a marketing executive to a fertility coach after discovering her passion for holistic health. Many individuals seek help too late in their fertility journey, often after failed IVF attempts. Statistically, 50% of IVF cases may not be necessary, highlighting the need for proper preparation. A holistic approach to fertility considers physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual factors. Oxidative stress negatively impacts egg and sperm quality, making lifestyle changes essential. Personalization in treatment is crucial; what works for one person may not work for another. Mindfulness practices can help manage stress, which can be harmful to fertility health. Community support is vital; many women feel isolated in their fertility struggles. Education and actionable steps are key components of effective fertility coaching.   Guest Bio:   Sonia Ribas, MBA, HHC, RYT Sonia is a sought-after LA based Fertility Coach and a Mom of 3. In her last 15+ years, she has successfully coached thousands of couples struggling to conceive. Her highly personalized, transformational and integrative lifestyle-based approach, which covers everything from nutrition to wellbeing, makes her an expert guide in her clients’ path towards Parenthood. She helps couples 1on1, in groups and in collaboration with Fertility Clinics around the world, in order to help patients boost their fertility from every possible angle and maximize their chance of conceiving, both naturally and via IVF.   Besides helping couples conceive healthy babies, she is a wellness educator and extremely passionate about inspiring people around the world to lead healthy lifestyles. She constantly collaborates with International lifestyle media outlets and companies as a consultant, speaker, educator and expert Health Coach.    You can find her at soniaribas.com and on Social Media @soniaribascoach.     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Sonia.   Sonia Ribas (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle.   Michelle (00:04) Yes, I would love for you to share your story of how you got into this work that you do.   Sonia Ribas (00:11) Okay. Yeah, let's go for it. So I always say, sometimes you find things in life. Sometimes things find you. In my case, fertility found me. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I was marketing executive and director for multinationals. And then I found yoga and I fell in love with hot yoga at the time to the point that I left my job and I went travel the world.   and I created one of the first online yoga studios in the world. And as I was doing that, yeah. And I was, was doing that occasionally. I was also teaching private sessions and, I was living in Boston at that time and I had a client who was originally from India and she was my yoga student and she was great. And then she was relocated back to India. And then she called me and she said,   Michelle (00:45) cool.   Sonia Ribas (01:06) Hey, my OBGYN says I'm not going to be able to have children and I'm devastated. And I was like, wow. And she said, you're the only person I trust. And I was like, well, wait a second. Like I'm not a fertility person, you know? Like I'm into healthy lifestyle. I'm a yoga instructor. I know a thing or two about these things because I follow it, but not fertility. And she said, Sonia, you're the only person I trust. So.   Michelle (01:32) Wow.   Sonia Ribas (01:33) This is 15 years ago. So I teamed up with my mother, who's a traditional Chinese doctor in Spain. And we teamed up together and we put together a holistic program. That was the very, very first version of what I do today. And, you know, we created meditation videos, yoga videos, lots of herbs, supplements, diet, lots of mindset tools and things like that. Things that we were coming up with. And I did a lot of research as well.   to understand, you know, I'm a research nerd, so to understand what works, what's proven, et cetera. So we created the first version for her and her labs improved a lot and she got pregnant naturally. So her OBGYN in India started referring people my way.   Michelle (02:16) All right.   Sonia Ribas (02:22) So yeah, the rest is history. So I started informally doing fertility coaching without being certified. My mom was helping me, but at some point my mom said, you know, I have a full practice in Spain. I think it's time for you to go on your own. So this was 15 years ago. So obviously fast forward, I got certified. I became a health coach and I got a lot of certificates in medicine and women's health and a lot more. And then   I started practicing fertility coaching 15 years ago, then I had three kids of my own. So I perfected my method with obviously my own experience. And yeah, by now we've helped make more than a thousand babies.   Michelle (03:08) Amazing, that's incredible. So cool.   So what are some of the common things that you see when people come to you for fertility? Like some of the common stories that people share on their journey I know that's a big question, but whatever comes first.   Sonia Ribas (03:27) Totally. So what I wish I would see, first I'm going to tell you what I wish and then the reality is, because sometimes it helps understand what I wish I would see is I wish I would see more people come earlier. So I always use the analogy of a wedding, know, the same way as you prepare for a wedding. And if you think I'm going to get married, you don't just show up in your sweatpants at your wedding, right? You prepare, you get a dress, you prepare a set, you know, you get the whole thing going.   Michelle (03:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (03:57) I wish it would be the same for having a baby because there's a lot of things that we would prepare in advance. There wouldn't be so many headaches and so many heartaches. Now, the reality is that I see people when they're on the desperate side, when they've been trying for a while and it has the journeys longer than they anticipated or when they've been told IBF is their only option.   Michelle (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (04:23) or even worse when they've tried IVF or IUI and it didn't work and then they come to me as a better alternative, more empowered version to get pregnant.   Michelle (04:35) And you say you had mentioned that you think that many times in many cases, people don't really need IVF. What has your experience been with that?   Sonia Ribas (04:46) So statistically, 50 % of IVF cases are not needed. So that right there tells you what happens, right? So a lot of people are thrown into IVF because that's the nature of the Western medical approach to fertility. In some cases, it works. In many cases, it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, most of the times it's because the person was unprepared or the couple was unprepared or because it was not needed.   So I always say, I always use the analogy of a car. So if your car doesn't work, what do you do? You take it to the mechanic and the mechanic tries to jumpstart the battery. So that's IVF. IVF is jumpstarting your system. You might or might not be ready for it. It might or it might not work, but the process is very expensive, very invasive, and it has side effects potentially for the rest of your life. So it's not something to take lightly.   Michelle (05:19) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (05:42) It's not like, hey, I'm going to get my whatever. It's not like I'm going to get my teeth cleaned. No, it's an invasive thing. So what I say is going back to the analogy of the car, if your car doesn't work, you can take it to the mechanic, you can open the motor and have a look. Clean whatever needs to be cleaned, repair whatever needs to be repaired so that when you try to switch it on, it will switch on without being jump-started. It will switch on natural.   So this is what we do here. And I always say to people, hey, if down the line, it hasn't happened naturally and you want to continue trying IVF, by that time you'll be ready. Look, I always go back to statistics. IVF without preparation is about a 20 % success rate. IVF with the proper preparation and optimizing your system is an 85 % success rate. So if you're going to throw yourself into this process,   At least prepare yourself so you can optimize your chances of success.   Michelle (06:46) And what are some of the things that you see that people need when they come to you? Like, What are some of the more common things that you see?   Sonia Ribas (06:56) So we here, we leave no stone unturned because everybody needs a combination of factors and everybody is really different. So for some people, it's more the physical side. For other people, it's more the mental, the past traumas, the blockages, the limiting beliefs energetically. So we leave no stone unturned. We cover everything from the physical layer, the mental, the emotional, the energetic, and the spiritual layer. So we have a holistic approach.   to fertility, which I love your podcast is wholesome because we use that word all the time as well.   Michelle (07:31) Yes, for sure. mean, there's so many different layers. Some of the things that I personally see is a lot of people are given diagnosis and I guess in the journey, it's very easy to get a lot of limiting labels thrown at you. And I really say thrown at you. mean, I was one of them. had my own issues with my menstrual cycle.   growing up, but not realizing that I had other option. And I think that a lot of times is that people don't realize that they have options and they don't realize or aren't really told along the way, unless they find the right person, that there are alternatives and things that they could do to improve their state. I think that that was, that's the biggest hurdle is just really not even knowing anything else exists.   Sonia Ribas (08:25) Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of the things we do is education because people obviously you don't know and people go to Dr. Google, which is probably the last thing you should be doing because it's nerve-wracking. So we do a lot of education, but we step a lot into action. We're very, very action and results oriented. I always say to my clients, we are here for transformation. And if we are here for transformation, we need to combine information,   plus action. So everything we offer here is very, very action oriented, whether it's on the diet side and we roll up our sleeves and we create personalized diets for our clients. But also, for example, on the movement side, we give them a lot of tools. Like it's not just, go move and go exercise, but we give them a lot of exercise videos, yoga videos, strength training, like all the tools they can actually go and implement with real actionables.   Michelle (09:24) And when you talked about percentage of improvement for IVF, if you're prepared versus not prepared, is that anything specific to your work or something that you've seen? How do you base that?   Sonia Ribas (09:38) No. Yeah. So that's kind of like statistics that we draw in our practice. mean, the fact that IVF is around a 20 % success rate is known. That's not something that I've decided. That's something that's published. Obviously, it depends on the age brackets and all that, but we can call it an average. And then what I see is I have a lot of people who've tried IVF, and they come my way after a number of failed rounds of IVF.   Michelle (09:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (10:06) And then we can draw statistics of like, from these people, how many people then have a successful IVF after? And it's about 85%.   Michelle (10:13) Yeah, that's awesome. it's good to know. I'm curious because I'm a little bit of a numbers nerd myself and I like to kind of get like data and I hearing just things even with like studies and so kind of jogged my curiosity. That's awesome and I agree. I do Chinese medicine. I also do fertility coaching, but ultimately,   Sonia Ribas (10:19) Me too.   Michelle (10:35) when you do make these changes in your lifestyle, you really can optimize a lot of your wellbeing, but it's almost like you're the way I see it is you're triggering an anti-aging because that's really what fertility is. It's kind of like anti-aging treatment. If you think about it, it's the same thing. It's just really optimizing your health, optimizing your mitochondria and your body's energy so that it's able to   Sonia Ribas (10:52) Right? Yes.   Michelle (11:02) produce, reproduce, but that's ultimately like turning back the clock, which we can actually do. something that you can actually do with lifestyle, which is why I find it so empowering in general. I find that a lot of people also feel that it's not just empowering for conceiving, but it's empowering as they get older as well.   Sonia Ribas (11:12) Yes.   Yes, yes, exactly. So what we do here is reverse the effects of oxidative stress. So as you say, it's kind of like the anti-aging version of fertility.   Michelle (11:36) And what are some of the things that you find or some of the ways you approach that just for people listening that are curious, like, cause some people know, you know, that that can impact equality as we age, oxidative stress gets higher, but some people might not, you know, it might be like new terms if they're just listening to this now and they're first starting this journey. so let's kind of break it down for the listeners if they're hearing this and why it's so impactful for   not just egg quality, but for sperm quality as well.   Sonia Ribas (12:09) Yes, there's a massive difference though. obviously as you age, oxidative stress happens. It's the byproduct of being alive. It's funny because my dad always said, you know, when my dad drinks or something and I say, hey, dad, this kills you. He says, you know what? Living kills me. Being alive means that you are subject to the process of oxidative stress. Everybody's subject to that. Now there's a difference between egg and sperm. Eggs,   Michelle (12:27) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (12:38) You are born with your set of eggs. I cannot take out your eggs and replace them. They are there. We can do a lot of things to optimize their functioning, optimize their quality. As you said, optimize the mitochondria and make them fitter and stronger and better working, but they're the same. Now, sperm on the other side is regenerated all the time. The sperm that's ejaculated today is not the sperm that will be ejaculated tomorrow or in three weeks.   That's why it's a lot easier. In my experience, it's a lot easier to improve sperm quality than egg quality. But we can work on both and we definitely have great success on both. But every time that I get a couple that have a combination of factors, I always look at the male and I say, okay, you're on the lucky side. If you do this program, I can guarantee for sure that your sperm will improve no matter what.   Michelle (13:39) So let's talk about the egg quality and how oxidative stress impacts the egg quality and like what people can do, generally speaking to improve their quality of eggs.   Sonia Ribas (13:44) Okay, yeah.   Okay, great. So how it impacts egg quality is, well, it's in a number of ways, but primarily two very strong ways. One of them is genetically. It affects the DNA structure of your cells, including the DNA structure of your eggs. So when your eggs produce embryos, it might be that the embryos are genetically not normal. So that's when we see genetic things happen, even not viable.   So that's one thing that happened. The other thing that is very visible that happens is that the mitochondria, which is the energy factories of the cells, get affected. So they're not as strong. This is why we recommend supplements like CoQ10, for example, to boost the functioning of the mitochondria. Now, what do we do holistically in this program to optimize that quality? It's one of my favorite topics in the world. Thanks for asking me that. So it's a holistic approach.   We boost fertility, we boost equality from every possible angle, everything lifestyle-based and everything is research-based here. So everything we offer here has been proven at some point by research papers. So we work on 15 factors. So my program is 15 modules plus a bonus module, that's male factor. So for 15 modules, we deep dive into 15 areas of your lifestyle.   that need to be optimized because they're strictly related to fertility. So if you optimize those areas of your lifestyle, you are boosting your fertility and your egg quality no matter what. And those are, there's a physical layer, there's a mental layer, emotional layer, energetic layer, and spiritual layer. So we combine things like diet, hydration, supplements, weight management, movement. We talk about inner dialogue, emotions.   cortisol, stress, everything that happens related to your stress hormones, sleep patterns, circadian rhythms, your relationships, your toxic relationships, your conflict, your libido, your sex drive, your relationship, your connection to your partner, environmental toxins, empowerment, your connection to your inner power, limiting beliefs, empowering self-affirmations, meditations, cycle syncing. also do   sit cycling, and then connecting to your group. So I think it's very important. And that's something we never talk about, which is like, can throw a lot of things at you. But if we don't find your version of what I'm talking about, it's not going to work. So that's why it's very important, the concept of bio-individuality, which means a person's food is another person's poison. Right?   Michelle (16:34) Yeah, it's true.   100%.   Sonia Ribas (16:45) Everything needs to be personalized to you because we are here to deliver results for you, not for your neighbor. So what works for your neighbor and your cousin might be very different. Some people have night shifts. Some people have preferences on food. Some people have cravings. Some people turn to different things to deal with emotions. Some people have past trauma, most of us. Like all of this is very, very personal. So what I'm very fascinated about and obsessed about is   Michelle (16:53) my god, so true.   Sonia Ribas (17:15) How do we go in the trenches with our clients? How do we help them land all the recommendations into their real life so that we can truly move the needle for them?   Michelle (17:28) Yeah, I love that. It's so true because that is something that I often see is, especially when they first come to us because they're like, you know, my best friend, she also struggled with fertility. She tried this herb and it helped her. And I wanted to try it too, or somebody else tried DHEA, which is a hormone and I want to try it too. And it is a hormone and it is something that I always recommend never take anything like that.   unless you get tested and see what's going on in your body. Because for one person, it could be amazing. It could be a game changer. But if your body has a completely different makeup and imbalance of hormones, it can actually be detrimental. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because everybody's so unique. literally are like, our bodies are like fingerprints. And I love that saying one man's food is another man's poison. It's 100 % true.   Like somebody can thrive, actually dairy has been shown to help with many women who are trying to conceive full fat. It's been shown in studies. I'm also a nerd with that. Like I love that because it's true. Like then you could see, okay, for the majority, yeah, it can actually be really beneficial. However, if you have a dairy sensitivity or an allergy or it causes more inflammation, or as in Chinese medicine, we look at like dampness.   which is an element, I'm sure your mom has taught you about that. Then if that's the case, that would not be great for that particular person. it's so important for people to realize that, yes, you listen to podcasts and you read about it and you go down like Dr. Google, as you said, and you can learn a lot of things. However, your body is so unique and your body needs a customized plan.   Sonia Ribas (19:03) Thanks.   Yes, absolutely. And even a step further, your body today is different than your body in two weeks because you are a woman and you are in the waves of your menstrual cycle. So if you're ovulating today, you'll feel strong, you'll feel energetic, you'll feel social. And in two weeks, as you're about to menstruate, you'll feel like a completely different person.   Michelle (19:33) Yes, that's true.   Sonia Ribas (19:52) And that's something I like to talk about because I get a lot of men kind of like asking me how true this is, how is PMS real? Is she making it up? you know, they just, because they're flat, they don't understand the fluctuations of hormones. And I do a lot of education on that, on cycle syncing, how this is real and how life is a lot easier if you serve the waves of your cycle.   instead of fighting it or instead of just acting as if it doesn't exist.   Michelle (20:24) Totally. I call that just kind of personal flow. In Chinese medicine, we do a lot of like physical flow with the meridians and our qi. But when we have flow in our life, that's really what it looks like. It's really understanding, not fighting, kind of going with that, riding those waves. So yeah, I totally agree.   Awesome. And so what are some of the, love talking also about the mind and how stress can impact our bodies. I understand this from a Chinese medicine perspective. I also, we know that when we're in fight or flight, basically the energy rich blood rich areas are going to be our arms and legs or limbs so that we can either fight or run. And it takes it away from our vital organs and including the uterus. So   let's talk about that. Let's talk about how stress can impact fertility and why it's so important to address that aspect of ourselves.   Sonia Ribas (21:27) Okay. I love, this is one of my favorite topics. So when it comes to stress, I always say there's two kinds of stress. There's useful stress and there's chronic stress, which is not useful. So stress is a natural response and it's actually very useful response to danger and to situations in life that need for you to be pumped with certain hormones called disall adrenaline to react.   Like if there's a lion about to chase me, I need to experience stress so that I can react and save my life, right? I need to run or hide or something, right? So that's useful. And in certain situations in life, that's very useful. Now we have in our modern society normalized a stressful feeling to the point that because we have deadlines, have infertility problems, we have a lot of things going on.   Our body is constantly in alert as if a lion's about to chase me every five minutes. So that's called chronic stress and that is highly inflammatory. So if you feel you're having that, which you probably are because we pretty much all have that, you need to find ways to release that cortisol. You know, because otherwise we have what we call a cortisol intoxication or a cortisol overload.   And cortisol is highly inflammatory, even excess. So you need to find ways to release it. And this is where we step into action. So for me, for example, I need to go workout to release stress. If I don't move, I can meditate and things like that, but it's not going to be the same as sweating it out. So I do hot yoga. Hot yoga is my thing. Right. For other people, it's different, you know, there's a lot of different ways. So.   Michelle (23:10) I love hot yoga. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (23:19) If workout works for you, great. Meditation also works for a lot of people. And if you're not meditating, I get a lot of people tell me, that's not for me. Give it a chance because meditation does not need to be a full hour in Tibet. It can be 10 minutes, five minutes sitting on your bed and just like focus on your breath, diaphragmatic breathing. As you inhale, expand your belly.   As you exhale, you contract your belly and you connect to your breath. And that in itself sends your brain signal of, am safe. And you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And that's where your reproductive function thrives. If, however, you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, then your reproductive function won't be favorized.   Michelle (24:05) Yes.   Sonia Ribas (24:13) because your body will only favorize the functions that are essential for survival.   Michelle (24:19) Absolutely.   Sonia Ribas (24:20) So another way that I always tell people to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, so to release stress, is hugging. Hugging, a long hug, also does that. Also sends that signal to your brain of, am safe, I escaped the lion, everything's good. So that also works really well. And also hot and cold therapy.   So if you're stressed and you're like, my God, I don't know what to do with myself, go take a cold shower or a hot shower or combine both or take ice water or make yourself a hot tea. Like hot and cold therapy are very good as a way to release cortisol as well.   Michelle (25:06) Interesting. Yeah. mean, there's the cold plunges. There's I'm trying to look into that as far as fertility goes. Possibly might be good for men, but I'm not sure about women quite yet. Trying to do the research on that, but I do agree. Maybe it's kind of like that initial kind of shift from one state to another that sort of breaks up the stagnation.   Sonia Ribas (25:29) Yeah, it's the shocker. I knew you're going to say that because obviously in the traditional Chinese medicine, we don't want to be cold. And I grew up this way. You always want to be on the warmer side. I remember when my mom did her internship in Beijing, it was super hot, like 110 degrees. And everybody was drinking hot tea 24-7. And she was calling me like, I don't know if I can do this, like, hot tea.   Michelle (25:31) It's a shock, yeah.   Yes.   Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:00) But yeah, I know very well that that's a tradition. I grew up with that. And for me, cold water is a problem too. But what I do is I shock my system and I do hot, cold, hot, cold, and I always end with hot because I cannot walk out of my shower feeling cold. But I do think shocker.   Michelle (26:17) Yes, and also the shower is not as extreme as some of these cold plunges.   Sonia Ribas (26:22) That's true. That's true. Yeah, I do think the combination though is very, very interesting. But as we said, hey, bio individual.   Michelle (26:28) Right. It's like the yin and yang. We're kind of forcing a yin and yang balance in some way. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:33) Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, try it out. Like I always say to people, don't take my word for anything. Everything we talk about, try it out for yourself and see it in your own body, how it feels. Find your own version.   Michelle (26:44) Yeah, that's right. Totally. And I think that our bodies are just so intelligent and we're made of this intelligence and it always speaks to us. It speaks to us with food. It will guide you if you're really connecting with it, which is why I love meditation so much because it really brings us an awareness to that communication. It bridges, it almost like builds this neuron, this connection between us and our bodies.   that maybe we've ignored for so long and sort of forgot really was there. That's why I love mindfulness. But also what I love about really becoming mindful and meditation is it teaches us to become aware of our body. we can catch ourselves if we're getting too stressed out about certain things, we can catch ourselves and realize, hey, I'm not actually in danger right now.   and of realize that, and that mindfulness is what is kind of on guard to check, you know, your situation.   Sonia Ribas (27:50) Absolutely. I love that you're saying that. I love mindfulness. In my program, we call it heartfulness, actually, because it's all the mindfulness principles of being aware of what you're doing, of your surroundings, being very much there. But I call it heartfulness because I like to shift the focus from here, because we spend so much time here, to here. How does it feel? How does it feel to be here now?   Michelle (27:56) Ooh, I love that.   Yes.   Sonia Ribas (28:19) Okay, you're noticing everything, mindfulness and the added touch of the heart, the feeling, the savoring. I feel we need more savoring and we need to be more connected to that concept of savoring in life. And that's one of the things that I preach all the time.   Michelle (28:38) I love that because it's almost like bringing romance back into life, right? Cause it's like those moments, just savoring those moments and bringing more romance, which really, does that do? It's like infusing meaning into the moment. And there's more meaning, there's more richness. And if you think about just kind of how we used to live, I think of like, I don't know, a street in Paris where people are just sitting a lot longer to talk and eat and take their time and really tasting everything.   Sonia Ribas (28:42) I love that. Yeah, totally.   Michelle (29:05) I think that when you're doing that, you're really infusing kind of that chi life force energy into your moments in life, which ultimately I think impact your body.   Sonia Ribas (29:16) Yes, and fertility is about that. Fertility, a concept for me of fertility, the essence of boosting fertility is adding that boost of life into your life. More grace, more flow, more enjoying, more savoring, more being here, more embracing, empowering yourself.   Michelle (29:29) I love that.   Yeah, I love that. That's so true. mean, really, ultimately that's it's just a richness. It's kind of like living in an energy rich state, which ultimately, mean, that's it's kind of like just energy being really efficient and thriving through your body. And that's when your cup overflows, you're able to bring more life forth. And that's yeah. Also, I think that also when you're working in this work,   You start to see patterns and you start to see how clearly what's crazy about it is that in order to reproduce, we need all this energy, but like the fertility journey on its own can be so taxing and draining, which is why it's important to have somebody who understands it to guide you and to help you with that ultimately. And, or even a community or friends or connecting with others going through it, because I think that helps as well.   having that sense of support.   Sonia Ribas (30:37) Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't need to go through this alone. I think that some things in life are meant for you to do alone, some things are not. And fertility is definitely not one of them. I am always shocked when I read statistics that about 63 % of women with fertility problems never talk about it with anyone. It totally breaks my heart.   Michelle (30:47) Yeah.   That's sad. Yeah. see it too. mean, people, when they first come to my office, they're like, they feel so relieved. They're like, I can't really talk about this. Even with my husband sometimes, I'll say.   Sonia Ribas (31:09) Totally. Yeah, totally. They're so scared of ruining their marriage if they talk about it. And in my program, we combine private coaching with group coaching. And I have a lot of people at the beginning of the program who are unsure about the group coaching at the beginning. And they're like, I'm not sure, you know, it's kind of private. Then they give it a go. And then by the end of the program, when they give me feedbacks, I always ask for feedback at the end. They say, my God, the group sessions were the best. It's a group.   They call it a mouth hug. And feeling seen, feeling validated by women who are in the same season in life is so, so therapeutic.   Michelle (31:39) Yes. Yeah.   my God, yes, I've seen the same thing and I've seen people in the programs connecting and having lifelong relationships because afterwards I'll find out they're still in touch and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really, and I think that also we're meant to meet the right people at the right time, even people going through the same journey and they become really like lifelong friends.   Sonia Ribas (31:59) I think.   Exactly, exactly. Those people were meant to cross paths and to continue some journeys together. Absolutely.   Michelle (32:19) Yes, awesome. So if somebody's hearing this, is there like a word or a sentence or some kind of inspiring tip that you can provide? Somebody's going through it right now, going through the fertility journey and obviously going through the struggles that we all know are very real.   Sonia Ribas (32:37) Yes. So I think that my summary for today is you don't need to do this alone, especially this week. I'm very sensitive to this because I've seen a lot of people who have chosen to do this on their own and to continue struggling on their own. it totally breaks my heart. So in terms of your chances of success, in terms of how enjoyable this will be in terms of your own journey and your own experience, don't you ever think you need to do this alone? You know, there's help out there that can make it so much better for you.   and embrace it.   Michelle (33:10) Awesome. And so if people are hearing this and they want to find out more about you, how can they find you?   Sonia Ribas (33:16) Okay. So the two ways, easier ways to find me is my website, sonyarebus.com and my Instagram page, which is Sonia rebus coach.   Michelle (33:27) Awesome. So Sonia, thank you so much for coming on. I have all your information on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it. And this is a great conversation. I love that you're really into empowering couples. And ultimately, I think that that is so needed in this world. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Sonia Ribas (33:50) Thanks for having me, Michelle.