Brené and Adam Grant on the Skillsets of Empathy

Welcome to The Curiosity Shop! In the inaugural episode, Brené and Adam discuss how a public disagreement about authenticity almost ended their relationship before it began. For the first time, they discuss where they went wrong, why they changed their minds about each other, and what they learned about repair and trust. They also explore what healthy authenticity looks like, and dive into the many things they may still never fully see eye to eye on – from email vs. texting to remote work to faith. Show Notes Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed The Fine Line Between Helpful and Harmful Authenticity - Adam Grant 2020 NYT Authenticity Is a Double-Edged Sword -  Adam Grant 2020 WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast  My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 The Dangers of Being Authentic - Adam Grant LinkedIn 2016 In Tough Times, Psychological Safety Is a Requirement, Not a Luxury  - Michael Blanding 2025 HBR Jecker & Landy: Liking a person as a function of doing him a favour  - Jecker & Landy 1969 APA PsycNet Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know  - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn’t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective A Whole New Mind (Right-Brainers will Rule the Future)  - Daniel H. Pink 2005 Book The Neuroscience of You: How Every Brain Is Different and How to Understand Yours  - Chantel Prat 2022 Book Dr. Harriet Lerner on I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2  - Brené Brown and Dr. Harriet Lerner 2020 Unlocking Us Podcast Happy Gilmore Scene - I’m Stupid You’re Smart - Happy Gilmore 1996 Movie Shame and Guilt - June Price Tangney 2002 Book Daniel Kahneman: Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant and Daniel Kahneman 2021 Re:Thinking But yes, Blue Jays are master mimics Sponsor List Thank you to SAS and Canva! Chapters Titles + Timestamps 0:00 - Introduction 3:26 - Our First Disagreement 18:45 - Our Path Here 28:31 - Approach to Repair an Apology 51:02 - Closing Question Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards certainty over inquiry, The Curiosity Shop will see two of the world’s most influential thought leaders make the case for slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity over easy answers. Bringing together their left and right brain sensibilities — she’s a qualitative researcher; he’s a quantitative researcher — they will explore some of the defining questions of our time, unpack the research reshaping how we live, lead, and love, and dive deep into the ideas, evidence, and cultural moments intriguing them the most. Tune in for the first episode on Thursday, March 19! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the second part of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené shares an excerpt from the Strong Ground audiobook that walks listeners through the one topic that elicited the most questions — the Above/Below the Line practice. This is one of the most profound self-awareness tools we discovered! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part one of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené answers questions from listeners about mindset shifts, leading from where you are, and courage and boldness in uncertain times. She highlights the importance of pausing during big decisions where action is not always impact, breaks down how to be courageous when it’s not the popular choice, and emphasizes the role of curiosity and thoughtfulness when moving through uncertainty and overwhelm. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the final episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam discuss the problem with rewarding all effort as excellence. Instead, leaders should reward effort that is not leading to success or mastery with their time through coaching, mentoring, and sharing their own experiences of transformation and change. They also explore how to approach decisions based on how consequential and reversible they are and highlight the role that leaders play in setting up others for success by making sure their team has what they need. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fifth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam break down the skillsets of empathy, empathy misses, and how empathy is trickier than walking in someone else’s shoes. They discuss the way empathy can show up as being curious and caring — irreducible prerequisites for good leadership. Brené shares a powerful sentence for leaders building an empathy skillset: “What does support from me look like right now?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fourth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam explore the attack on empathy, the difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and what separates empathy from enmeshment. Brené shares a personal story that led to a breakthrough around how to stay aligned with empathy and perspective taking instead of over-identifying and finding yourself in enmeshment — the feeling of not knowing where you end and someone else begins. They also discuss how living in an image-heavy world can affect the way we engage with empathy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the third part of a special series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam tackle the topics of time scarcity, how a great leader doesn’t have all the right answers, but the right questions, and the difference between pocket presence and executive presence. They dig into how understanding the 5 Cs — color, context, connective tissue, cost, and consequence — of delegation and strategy operations can build the situational awareness, temporal awareness, systems theory, and critical thinking skills necessary for pocket presence. In their discussion, Adam shares his breakthrough of seeing pocket presence as a collective capability, whereas executive presence is “party of one.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part two of a special series with Adam Grant on Brené’s new book, Strong Ground, Brené and Adam discuss the far and near enemies of generosity, the tug of war of paradox, and sports as leadership theater. They explore how finding our strong ground offers tethering, connection, and stability, and also the platform for explosive movement and change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special Dare to Lead episode, Brené shares one of her favorite chapters from the Strong Ground audiobook called Lock-In and Lock-Through Power. Brené uses the metaphor of a boat lock to explore the tricky work-to-home and professional-to-personal transitions that we have to navigate with our partners, children, and friends. She digs into why, at the end of a hard day, when we finally arrive home, we stay in our cars and scroll through TikTok rather than going inside, and how an intentional "locking through" process allows us to rise or lower to a new and different rhythm as we make daily transitions. And, after visiting the Teddington Lock in London and getting a lesson from the local lock keeper, she shares why moving too fast through these transitions often results in relational capsizing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices