148: Dan Nelken on copywriting confidence, creatively winging it and not giving a forklift

This week we very tentatively clambered on top of our desks to bellow ‘Oh Captain, my Captain’ to the most inspirational educator in advertising, Ally Owen. The brains behind one ad-lands most invaluable teaching programmes, Brixton Finishing School, Ally has done more than literally anyone to help young, multicultural and neurodiverse creatives find a way into advertising – kickstarting hundreds and hundreds of creative careers, while most big agencies were sat fiddling with the font on their DEI policy PowerPoints. For most people, transforming all those lives would have been enough – but Ally has also gone on to launch ADcademy, a free virtual programme that provides 2,500 students a year with top-class creative training. Ally is also one of the brains behind Visible Start, an incredible program designed to help women over 45 to re-enter the workforce. So, in a nutshell, just imagine what a huge stinky poo-fire the creative industries would be without her. In this episode we ponder everything from the real value of diversity and inclusion in all kinds of business, the financial and emotional hurdles she helps young creatives navigate at Brixton and how a Friday-night shift at Portsmouth McDonald's gave her the skills of a UN negotiator. ///// Follow Ally on LinkedIn Visit the Brixton Finishing School website or follow them on Instagram Head to Career Adventures where tomorrow’s creatives are being inspired ///// Timestamps  (04:10) - From Selling Shoes to McDonald's: The Early Gigs (06:49) - The Skills of a UN negotiator: Friday night in McDonald's Portsmouth (09:23) - The Great Escape to University (10:56) - From Pharaohs to Advertising and the House of Stolen Things (13:39) - Pure Luck or Destiny, The Path to Advertising?  (15:22) - A Relentless Career Pursuit (18:04) - Setting out to make things better with Brixton Finishing School (24:13) - Building a Bridge into Advertising  (28:04) - Office Etiquette, Don’t Microwave Fish (31:36) - How to Support Brixton Finishing School  (33:07) - The Finishing School Foundation: Practical Help for the NEET  (41:19) - Four Pertinent Poses  (45:45) - Honouring Carol Tully     Ally’s book recommendation is: Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman. /////

This week we pulled on our most dramatic tights and tried not to mumble our lines in order to catch the attention of one of the theatre world’s most charismatic – and mischievous – characters, Christian Edwards. The comedy genius behind one of Twitter’s greatest spoofs – the mysterious West End Producer – Christian eventually pulled back the curtain to reveal, with glorious theatrically, that it was him all along. And this is entirely typical of a man whose creative adventures, and commitment to putting on a show, encompass writing regularly for The Stage and starring in sell-out shows in both the West End and Edinburgh Fringe. Like a nonchalant spoon, he has never been afraid to cause a stir, and while that may have knocked the occasional nose out of joint, he has amassed a cult following and a well-earned reputation for being one of theatre-lands wittiest wags. As well as re-living his starring role in that big, weird show we used to call Twitter, we chat about the life – and challenges – of a professional actor, what the future holds for both Christian and his West End Producer, and hear a magnificent yarn about the time he ran into an ex-fiancée dressed as a giant cigarette. Discover the homepage of the latex mask The Twitter account that launched the star View West End Producer’s snaps on Instagram Follow Christian Edwards (the real one) on Instagram Follow the real Christian Edwards on X ///// Timestamps (02:15) - Early Jobs and Humorous Experiences (05:06) - First Proper Acting Role: A Journey Begins (06:05) - Discovering a Passion for Acting (08:41) - The Challenges of Early Acting Roles (10:08) - The Variety of In-Between Jobs (12:10) - Lessons from Early Jobs in Acting (14:09) - The Birth of the West End Producer Persona (18:31) - The Rise of West End Producer on Twitter (20:31) - Validation and Identity: Christian vs. West End Producer (23:30) - The Evolution of the West End Producer Character (25:51) - Impact on the Theatre Industry (30:06) - The Importance of Mental Health Advocacy (32:22) - Unmasking: The Transition from West End Producer (35:21) - Future Projects and Creative Outlets (41:21) – Listener Questions (53:00) – Four Pertinent Posers ///// Christians Book Recommendations are: Ultra-Processed People: Why Do We All Eat Stuff That Isn’t Food … and Why Can’t We Stop? by Chris van Tulleken Year of the King by Anthony Sher Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression – and the Unexpected Solutions by Johann Hari Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Acting (But Were Afraid to Ask, Dear) by West End Producer Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Going to the Theatre (But Were Too Sloshed to Ask, Dear) by West End Producer

This week we deliberately kept standing on rakes and getting repeatedly thwacked in the face in order to lure out the king of creative nonsense, Mr Mark Denton esq. The creative hero that advertising needs, but doesn’t entirely deserve, Mark Denton is the once-in-many-lifetimes imagination behind more than 500 commercials – scooping up so many awards he could spend all day throwing them at passing canoeists and still have armfuls to spare. With even the biggest creative industry on the planet unable to entirely hold Mark’s interest, he’s flitted magnificently between the worlds of art, fashion and furniture design – Dentonising each field to glorious effect. Currently chief of COY! Communications, Mark is surgically re-implanting advertising’s forgotten sense of fun, and putting the ‘big idea’ back on the table. Teetering gloriously at the edge of what he calls ‘old geezership’, Mark has a lifetime of stories, adventures and quadruple-strength whimsy to impart – covering everything from stumbling into advertising, why he’s embracing new creative spaces and his famous experiment as a 65-year-old intern. ///// Visit Mark Denton's Website Dig through Dave Dye’s Mark Denton Archive Follow Mark on Instagram Connect with Mark on LinkedIn Mark’s first ever TV ad for Cadbury’s Cream Eggs Mark’s scamp for Samsung car batteries A showcase of Mark’s work in his interview with the peerless Dave Dye A tribute to his dedication, and former boss Norman Icke (creator of the Milk Tray man), Cadbury’s Fruit and Nut Case advert: Timestamps (03:55) - Mark Meets Duncan (07:00) - Family Background and Career Choices (09:15) - First Job and Sneaking in Creative Ideas (12:25) - The Cadbury's Cream Eggs Breakthrough (18:10) - Adapting to Different Agency Styles (23:30) - Interning at St. Luke's (30:00) - The Role of Process in Agencies (32:00) - The Decline of Quirkiness in Advertising (35:00) - The Need for Entertainment in Ads (37:00) - The Creative Fulfilment in the Ads Your Working On (39:00) - Encouraging Young Creatives (40:30) - Visual Posters Make Great Ads (43:00) - Encouraging Enthusiasm in Advertising (46:00) - Allowing Creatives to be Creative (49:00) - Conclusion and Reflection on Change (51:00) - Getting his head round TikTok (57:10) - Listener questions (01:01:25) - 4 pertinent posers Mark's book recommendations are:   How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie Unleash the Power of Puerility by Mark Denton /////

This week we just kept on making the logo bigger and bigger (and bigger) until we caught the despairing eye of legendary art director, author and, let’s face it, visual Jesus, Mr Dave Dye. The art director’s art director, Dave is the architect of some of the coolest advertising you’ve ever seen – with a hit-list of iconic ads for everyone from Adidas to Volkswagen to The Economist. He’s also a champion for advertising with more wit and brains, expertly rummaging back through some forgotten ad masterpieces via his wildly popular blog and podcast, Stuff From The Loft. Finally, he’s the co-author of the excellent The Howard Gossage Show, a book created with another friend of CTA, Steve Harrison. A guest so entertaining we genuinely forgot there was a running time, Dave shares the stories behind his most memorable campaigns, the lessons we can all learn from past masters, a philosophy that’s all about making ads people enjoy and his optimism for the creative future of the industry. ///// Rummage around Dave's Stuff from the Loft Timestamps (05:00) - From Paperboy to Trying to Get a Job in Advertising (08:04) - Creating His Own Ads (10:25) - Changing the Approach to Cover Letters (12:33) - Getting Interviews and a Foot in the Door (20:03) - Being Bold and Distinct in Job Applications (25:27) – Optimism and Naivety in Advertising (30:02) - Challenges of Working with Established Brands (31:18) - The Potential of Digital Advertising (34:47) - The Origins of Stuff From The Loft (36:58) - The Purpose of Archiving Work (40:12) - Transitioning to a Public Archive (43:10) - Accidental Evolution into Podcasting (56:50) – Listener Questions Dave's book recommendations are:   A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters by Dan Nelken  The Howard Gossage Show by Steve Harrison & Dave Dye /////

This week, we got into a thumb-war-to-the-death with our inner critic in order to lure over legendary copywriter, speaker, coach, author and all-round good Canada goose egg Dan Nelken. The alphabetical genius behind the bestselling Self Help Guide for Copywriters, and his 5-star online course ‘Writing Under Pressure’, Dan has made it his mission to rescue writers and brands all over the world from the malign influence of the dreaded inner critic – a character that Dan describes, with characteristic politeness, as a ‘ding dong’. The true Canadian king of creativity (shut your face Reynolds) Dan chats to CTA about the importance of creating stuff that’s just for you, the long-game of any creative career, how to gain and maintain creative confidence, and of course his own grapplings with an inner critic he calls Alan. ///// Follow Dan on LinkedIn  Visit Dan’s site  Jerry Seinfeld's interview with Tim Ferriss, the interview every creative should watch ///// Timestamps (02:05) - Quick Fire Questions (04:05) - Dan's Early Jobs (04:53) - From Forklift Truck Driver to Copywriter (06:45) - Finding His Path into Copywriting (08:36) - First Copywriting Gig at Cosset and Breaking through with McDonald's (12:02) - Value of Getting Lost (13:21) - The inspiration behind “Writing Under Pressure” (17:59) - Creating a Course On Writing Headlines (21:03) - Response to the Book (22:40) - Maintaining Creative Confidence (24:09) - Confronting Your Inner Critic (26:07) - Structure in Creativity (29:07) - Creativity Closer to Math(s) than Magic (31:04) - Importance of Structure in Creativity (32:39) - Most Creatives Hate Brainstorming (36:57) - Naming Alan, the Inner Critic (39:21) - The Joy of Creating for Yourself (42:46) - Impact of Creating on Social Media (43:40) - Audience Questions (48:20) - Four Pertinent Posers ///// Dan's book recommendations are:   A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters by Dan Nelken  Hey Whipple, Squeeze This  by Luke Sullivan Mind Management, Not Time Management by David Kadavy /////

This week, we went fishing in a Levi’s Creek to catch TED speaker, co-author of ‘The Creative Nudge’ and enthusiasm enthusiast, Kevin Chesters. His Twitter bio says he’s a “tall bald bloke from Penzance”. And whilst that might be true, it does rather undersell the fact that perched atop that tall body, and in that bald bonce, are some serious smarts. For Kevin is a Chief Strategy Officer, formerly strategy head at Ogilvy, Wieden + Kennedy, Saatchi, Dentsu, with a client-side cameo at BT, a visiting lecturer in creativity at several universities, a TEDx speaker, co-author of ‘The Creative Nudge’ and an absolute advocate for walking in stupid and talking in smarts.  We discuss his journey from his beginning manning boying a vegetable stall, flirting with journalism, getting past ‘A’ in the careers dictionary, the importance of fostering creativity in all fields (including muddy ones), executional skill, breaking category norms, sifting through the interesting to find useful, enthusiasm, neurodiversity, walking in stupid, finding the world endlessly fascintating, big agencies, little agencies and so much more. ///// Kevin’s website  Follow Kevin on LinkedIn Here’s his book, co-written with the brilliant Mick Mahoney His TED Talk Levi’s – Creek by BBH, 1993 ///// Timestamps (03:17) - Kevin's early jobs and first steps in the advertising industry (07:34) - His initial lack of interest in advertising and his pivot from journalism (10:04) - The impact of iconic ads like Levi's Creek on Kevin's career (19:04) - The value of diverse experiences in building a successful career (23:03) - Defining creativity and its importance in business and life (27:37) - Breaking category norms (31:06) - The concept of bravery in marketing (34:42) - Bringing Fresh Perspectives to Meetings (36:38) - Practical tips for fostering creativity in the workplace (45:05) - Listener questions including Mark Earls about the role of enthusiasm (47:08) - The impact of neurodiversity on Kevin's approach to strategy Kevin’s book recommendations are:  The Creative Nudge: Simple Steps to help you think differently by Kevin Chesters and Mick Mahoney The Victorian Internet by Tom Standage Legacy by James Kerr An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth by Chris Hadfield The Rebuilders by Sara Tate & Anna Vogt (Sara’s appearance on Call to Action® https://gasp.agency/media/call-to-action/sara-tate) ////

This week we got out our thesaurus and sent a proper professional-sounding connection request to snag the attention of Mimi Turner, Head of LinkedIn’s B2B institute for EMEA and Latin America. With more strategic know-how in her little finger than a yurt-load of gurus, Mimi has worked as Director of Strategy, Messaging and Research for The Liberal Democrats and Marketing Director for Lad Bible, before moving to her current role at LinkedIn where she champions brand as a key growth driver for B2B businesses.  One of B2B’s biggest brains and boldest bullshit busters, Mimi shares her thoughts on the ancient origins of strategic thinking, journalism’s tendency toward self-harm, the common mistakes B2B marketers keep on making and why B2B is just one big game of hide and seek. ///// Follow Mimi on LinkedIn Read Mimi and Jann  Schwarz's eye-opening research The real job of B2B Marketing is to give the Buyer Group permission to agree Tune in to Mimi's Nudgestock 2023 talk Every Product Needs a Promise   Timestamps (02:23) - Quick Fire Questions (07:14) - Mimi’s Early Career (08:43) - The early days as a student journalist (10:52) - The world’s worst chambermaid (12:09) - Sequencing operations in Burger King (15:48) - Hospitality Skills in Marketing: Leaders should be waiters (21:35) - Mimi’s route into marketing (24:50) - Playing to win and solve the strategic problems (29:31) - B2B marketing: The challenger to B2C marketing (32:29) - Joining the B2B Institute at LinkedIn (33:55) - Who is making the decisions in B2B buying (37:03) - In B2B Brand is a decision insurance (46:03) - This quarter’s sales will be won or lost on brand (49:26) - Target B2B’s hidden buyers (57:16) - Advice for CMO’s fighting for investment (01:01:46) - Target your customers, go after the buying group (01:04:43) - Differentiation and distinctiveness: The job of creativity in B2B brands (01:11:23) - Pertinent posers   Mimi's book recommendations are: The Penguin Book of Modern Speeches by Brian MacArthur  /////

It’s been 5 years since Call to Action® captured our first of what’s now over 140 heroes and allies from the industry front lines to have a chin-wag with. To celebrate, we’re rereleasing a choice cut of our favourite episodes as part of a ‘Best Of’ series.  Back in 2021, we posed as a jester in the throne room of the Burger Kingdom to nab one of the most influential CMOs in the industry; the mind behind the infamous Mouldy Whopper, Fernando Machado. A global marketer with enough Lions to rival Joe Exotic, Fernando has since tucked into a few new roles, including one as CMO at Activision Blizzard. But at the time of recording, Fer was CMO at Restaurant Brands International, serving up great creative work for Burger King, Popeyes and Tim Hortons.  So, pull up to the next window and pick-up Fer’s final flame-grilled interview pre-abdicating, where we chat on his obsession with creativity, how to make the case for creativity, the role of the CMO, why Mouldy Whopper was never a risk, brand heritage, cancel culture, Bill Bernbach, Dads in Briefs and the cliff divers of Acapulco. ///// Check out The One Club for Creativity  BGH Air Conditioners: Dads in Briefs   Timestamps (02:15) - Quick fire questions (03:39) - His early career and first job (08:02) - Importance of creativity as a competitive advantage (15:24) - Making the case for creativity in marketing (20:30) - Burger King's challenger mindset and culture of creativity (25:22) - Role of the CMO and comfort with being uncomfortable (28:29) - Listener questions  (33:04) - 4 pertinent posers  Fernando’s book recommendations are:  Bill Bernbach's Book by Bob Levenson  The Copy Book by D&AD  /////

This week, we tracked a trail through deserts, glaciers, coral reefs, paddy fields, palaces, the DMZ between the two Koreas and an Italian hilltop to catch a copywriter with a lifetime of wild experience behind him. Ciao, Andrew Jolliffe.  For 25 years he’s written ads, strategies, thought starters, content, manifestos and copy. Some of those have won him prizes in Cannes, Paris and New York, but more importantly, he still adores writing them. In an age where concepts cast shadows over craft, Andrew is a true craftsman.  Full of refreshingly smart observations, Andrew talks to us on his organ building apprenticeships, fireworks accidents, Princess Di’s wedding, his "3rd career" in advertising, the internet as a vending machine, an outstanding defence of proper craft, and much, much more.  ///// Follow Andrew on LinkedIn  Here’s his website, entirely written by his clients  A short but very award-winning film he wrote with animator Darren Price   MusiCuvia, music festival in Valcuvia, northern Italy, founded by Andrew 4 years ago  And some Jack Dee for good measure  Timestamps (02:12) - Quick Fire Questions  (06:03) - Andrew's Early Career: Pipe Organ Builder (11:03) - Transition to Firework Technician (16:20) - The Cutthroat World of Fireworks (19:53) - Transition to Advertising (23:54) - Learning the Craft at Ogilvy (25:09) - Understanding People from All Walks of Life (26:14) - The Value of Real Experiences (27:32) - The Internet as a Vending Machine (29:59) - The Importance of Craft in Advertising (32:22) - Consumer Intelligence and Craft (45:00) - Advice for Aspiring Advertisers  (52:06) - Pertinent Posers  Andrew’s book recommendations are:  Atonement by Ian McEwan Saturday by Ian McEwan Black Dogs by Ian McEwan The Pornographer by John McGahern The Plot Against America by Philip Roth  The Howard Gossage Show by Steve Harrison and Dave Dye /////

It’s been 5 years since Call to Action® captured our first of what’s now over 140 heroes and allies from the industry front lines to have a chin-wag with. To celebrate, we’re rereleasing a choice cut of our favourite episodes as part of a ‘Best Of’ series.  In 2021, baited by a Bedouin birthing blanket, we caught big thinker and bestselling author, Paul Feldwick.  The man behind one of our favourite all time ad campaigns, Paul worked at the legendary agency BMP on some of Britain’s most famous brands for over 30 years. Paul talks to us on tonnes of topics, including BMP, being the world’s worst account manager, clowns, talking to real people, what brands can learn from Snow White, Jeremy Bullmore, PT Barnum, fame, shame, purpose, Mrs Brown’s Boys, whether ads need to be "liked", Martin Boase, and a whole lot more.  ///// Check out his website  Follow Paul on LinkedIn We implore you to read both of his fabulous books:   Why Does the Pedlar Sing?  Anatomy of Humbug  And here’s that famous Barclaycard ad with Rowan Atkinson  Timestamps (01:58) - Quick fire questions (07:20) - Paul's early career and transition to account planning (11:24) - Importance of entertaining advertising (17:29) - Discussion on fame in advertising (24:35) - The history of advertising and its impact on creativity (29:33) - The moral implications of advertising and the need for entertaining content (35:32) - Question on creative thinking in advertising and overcoming shame for fame (41:36) - Balancing likability and fame in advertising campaigns (47:07) - Pertinent posers  Paul’s book recommendations are:  How Brands Grow by Byron Sharp  Building Distinctive Brand Assets by Jenni Romaniuk  /////