#258: From installs to outcomes in app growth with Lee Aho, Chief Revenue Officer at Perform[cb]

Search inside the app stores is changing — and AI is accelerating that shift. In this episode, we speak with Dave Bell, CEO at Gummicube, about how artificial intelligence is transforming the way users discover apps. Dave explains why search is becoming more conversational and intent-driven, how natural language queries are reshaping rankings, and why the era of optimizing for a single dominant keyword is fading. As users ask longer, more specific questions — both inside the App Store and through tools like ChatGPT — ASO strategies must evolve to reflect how people actually search. If you’re responsible for app visibility, organic growth, or ASO strategy, this episode offers a timely look at where search is heading next. Without any further ado, let’s get started. Today’s topics include: How AI is changing app store search behavior Natural language queries and intent-based ranking Why single-keyword optimization no longer works The growing role of LLMs in app discovery Apple opening the App Store to web indexing What AI-driven search means for future ASO strategy Links and Resources: Dave Bell on LinkedIn Gummicube Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Dave Bell “It’s not about looking for the one keyword to rule them all. It’s not The Lord of the Rings — it’s about understanding all the ways users might search and find your app.” “Users are really being retrained both in the way that they search for information and in terms of what results they expect from a natural search.” “LM models are now including summaries and links to apps that best fit a user’s prompt, giving users a new path into the app stores.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

What if your mobile app strategy was holding back your entire company's growth? In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch welcome back Matt Hudson, founder of BILDIT, to discuss why mobile-first thinking isn't just about technology—it's an organizational imperative. From breaking down the real ROI of app investment and the myth of channel cannibalization, to preparing your ecommerce business for AI discovery optimization, Matt shares hard-won lessons on aligning teams, personalizing customer experiences, and staying ahead of LLM-driven search trends. Whether you're scaling retail, launching a mobile strategy, or wrestling with how to compete in an AI-first world, this conversation cuts through the noise to deliver actionable insights that will reshape how you think about customer engagement across all channels. Links and Resources: Matt Hudson on LinkedIn BILDIT website Branch - Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises Today’s topics include: How to determine if your ecommerce business actually needs a mobile app Why organizational alignment across teams matters more than technology The critical difference between SEO and AI discovery optimization How to immediately implement AI-ready data on your site today Why React Native and cross-functional web-and-mobile teams accelerate app growth How AI personalization works at scale using embeddings and vectors Quotes from Matt Hudson: “The entire org of your company, no matter how big or small, has got to be vested in the growth of the mobile app.” “You know who doesn’t care about cannibalization? The customer. The customer. They want the easiest experience to convert.” “If the mobile app doesn’t improve your ROAS, your return on ad spend, nobody’s going to do anything with it."

How do you know if your app marketing is actually driving growth — or just generating activity? In this episode, we speak with Dane Buchanan, Global Chief Data & Analytics Officer at M+C Saatchi Performance, about one of the most misunderstood topics in app growth: measurement. Dane explains why clicks and impressions don’t tell the full story, why incrementality matters more than correlation, and how brands often underestimate their real ROI by ignoring offline impact. He also shares a case study where better measurement revealed that media ROI was actually three times higher than previously reported — changing the company’s investment strategy entirely. Today’s topics include: Why traditional media metrics fail to show true business impact What incrementality really means in app marketing The gap between online measurement and offline revenue A real-world case study showing 3× higher ROI Designing measurement systems that work in a privacy-first ecosystem Links and Resources: Dane Buchanan on LinkedIn M+C Saatchi Performance Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Dane Buchanan “In one line, incrementality is what wouldn’t have happened without the media.” “The issue with digital attribution and clicks and impressions is that it doesn’t truly show growth.” “If you’re only measuring online sales and ignoring offline revenue, you’re not seeing the full impact of your media — and that can lead to significant underinvestment” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Scaling user acquisition has become harder to justify and even harder to predict. App teams are under pressure to grow faster while proving, with real data, that every dollar spent delivers meaningful results beyond the install. In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talk interview where David Murphy speaks with Lee Aho, Chief Revenue Officer at Perform[cb]. Lee explains how outcome-based user acquisition models help brands move past surface-level metrics like CPI and focus instead on the downstream events that actually define quality — from registrations and deposits to trades, wagers, and long-term value. Today’s topics include: How outcome-based user acquisition shifts optimization from installs to the actions that truly define user quality The role of CPI and CPE models — and why they aren’t competing approaches when paired with the right down-funnel signals Using cross-program data and pattern recognition to drive more predictable and scalable UA performance Why keyword conquesting remains one of the most effective ways to accelerate organic lift through paid investment How rewarded environments and structured pilot programs can unlock high-intent users and long-term partnerships Links and Resources: Lee Aho on LinkedIn Perform[cb] website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Lee Aho “We’re only getting paid for net new users, so all of our optimization centers around the outcomes that brands tell us are their leading indicators of quality.” “When you’re looking at hundreds of programs, you’re not just seeing what happened — you’re starting to see what’s about to happen.” “Brands want user acquisition that scales in a predictable way, and that’s where performance-based models can really help.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Welcome to another episode of How I Grew This podcast from our partner Branch – mobile attribution platform and app analytics solutions for enterprises. It covers building a sustainable agency through values-driven leadership and specialist focus. In this episode, hosts Amanda and Adam speak with Mick Rigby, founder and CEO of Yodel Mobile, about his 20-year journey building a specialist mobile app marketing agency. From launching just before the iPhone's debut to being recently acquired by NP Digital, Mick shares insights on sustainable growth, maintaining company values, and adapting to industry changes. Links and Resources: Mick Rigby on LinkedIn Yodel Mobile  website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Today’s topics include: Saying “no” is a strategic advantage in app growth because focus and discipline create stronger long-term outcomes than chasing every opportunity. Yodel Mobile succeeded by committing early to being a specialist app marketing agency rather than a generalist digital services provider. Sustainable growth comes from cash-flow discipline, profitability, and resisting the pressure to scale faster than the business can support. Retaining talent and building a strong internal culture is a more durable competitive advantage than rapid hiring or aggressive expansion. AI will improve efficiency and data analysis in app marketing, but human skills like judgment, empathy, and strategy will matter even more. Quotes from Mick Rigby: “I think there’s something really powerful in the ability to say no” “AI, the robots… there is so much that they’re good at, but they are and they will continue to lack the human element.” ““I’m a great believer in you either have to be a specialist or a generalist."

For many app teams, ads are treated as a necessary tradeoff — something you accept in exchange for revenue. But ad quality isn’t just an ad ops issue. It directly shapes user experience, retention, and how people perceive your app. In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talks interview where David Murphy speaks with Alex Yerukhimovich, General Manager at AppHarbr. Alex breaks down what ad quality really means in practice, why the problem is getting worse, and how bad ads can quietly undermine performance — through shorter sessions, higher churn, and even one-star reviews that impact store visibility. From disruptive ad behaviour to scams and deceptive creatives, this conversation is a practical look at why publishers need more transparency and more control over what gets served inside their apps. Today’s topics include: Ad quality defined: why users see ads as part of the app experience — and blame publishers for what they see The three major categories of “bad ads”: inappropriate content, disruptive behavior, and malvertising scams Why ad quality is becoming a bigger problem outside gaming, especially for apps built on long-term retention How bad ads damage monetization and growth: shorter sessions, uninstalls, churn, and one-star reviews that affect store visibility What publishers can do about it: transparency, proactive enforcement, and real-time control instead of relying on ad networks to fix issues Links and Resources: Alex Yerukhimovich on LinkedIn Appharbr website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Alex Yerukhimovich “Users associate any bad experience within the app with the app itself.” “If the ads in your app are bad for your users, your app is bad.” “Ad quality in the industry deteriorates… it’s getting worse and it requires active approach to solve it.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

The way app users discover, evaluate, and even build apps is starting to shift — and large language models are at the center of that change. As AI platforms evolve beyond chat and into full ecosystems, app growth teams are facing a new set of questions around discovery, distribution, and long-term strategy. In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talks interview with Dan Shabtay, Co-Founder of Z2A Digital. Dan explores how the emerging app ecosystem inside ChatGPT is opening the door to a new wave of app creation — from no-code tools and solo entrepreneurs to entirely new user acquisition channels embedded directly within AI platforms. Today’s topics include: Dan explains how ChatGPT is evolving into a platform with its own internal app marketplace, giving developers access to hundreds of millions of users without relying on traditional app stores. Entrepreneurs and creators can now build and publish functional apps without engineering teams, fundamentally changing who can participate in app development and how quickly new ideas can reach the market. Unlike iOS or Google Play, apps built inside LLM ecosystems immediately tap into an existing, engaged user base, reducing friction around discovery and distribution. Traditional user acquisition isn’t disappearing, but it is shifting. Classic channels will coexist with new LLM-based acquisition models, including potential in-chat placements and AI-native ad formats. Beyond IQ and EQ, adaptability becomes the defining skill for app growth teams navigating rapid, AI-driven change. Links and Resources: Dan Shabtay on LinkedIn Z2A Digital website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Dan Shabtay: “It’s the most efficient infrastructure ever that has been created for entrepreneurs.” “For me as a business owner and as an entrepreneur, it’s a gold rush.” “AQ is adaptability… you have to be adaptable to the high-paced technology that’s going on right now.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Happy 2026, everybody! We're kicking off this year with an episode from our partner Branch - mobile attribution platform and app analytics solutions for enterprises. Join Adam and Amanda of Branch as they sit down with Shumel Lais, a mobile growth expert with over a decade of experience, to explore the essential strategies for launching and scaling subscription apps. From setting up proper analytics and understanding payback periods to navigating iOS challenges and leveraging AI, this episode delivers practical insights for both startup founders and established app developers. Learn why immediate ROI isn't always the goal, when to start paid acquisition, and how to build a sustainable growth strategy in today's complex mobile landscape. Links and Resources: Shumel Lais on LinkedIn Day30 website Branch website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Shumel Lais: “In the app ecosystem, there’s traditionally two key verticals: gaming and non-gaming subscription apps. The gaming folks are typically pretty well resourced when it comes to BI and data science, but on the non-gaming side it’s lacking — and that’s really where we’ve seen the opportunity.” “There are a lot of really exciting things possible with data science and machine learning. The question is how good we can get the signals that feed these black-box algorithms through prediction.” “What I see with early-stage teams is a desire to recoup their investment almost immediately. That makes sense when cash is constrained, but the bigger apps grow faster because they’re willing to wait six to twelve months to get that money back."

App Store optimization is often treated as a checklist item — update keywords, run a few tests, maybe layer on some paid traffic. But when those pieces operate in isolation, teams miss the real opportunity: using paid and organic together as a single, feedback-driven system. In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talks interview with David Quinn, VP of Strategy and Partnerships at Gummicube. David reframes ASO not as a standalone discipline, but as a full-funnel acquisition and conversion engine — one where keyword strategy, creative testing, and paid campaigns continuously inform one another. Today’s topics include: Why ASO only works when keyword strategy, creative testing, and paid campaigns are treated as one system How paid campaigns can actively support organic rankings instead of cannibalizing them Using Apple Search Ads taps and share of voice to influence App Store search performance Structuring Apple Ads campaigns and ad groups for clearer insights and better optimization The role of custom product pages in improving conversion and lowering paid acquisition costs Links and Resources: David Quinn on LinkedIn Gummicube website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from David Quinn “ASO isn’t any one of these things in a vacuum — it’s the combination of keyword updates, A/B testing, and paid campaigns, and the learnings you get from all of them together.” “If you launch paid campaigns before setting up your metadata, you’re missing a huge opportunity for the algorithm to understand what you should rank for.” “Paid search placements can help organic performance because taps are signals — if users choose your app more often, the store learns to rank it higher.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

In today’s episode, we’re digging into one of the most overlooked levers in mobile growth: the App Store page itself. Developers obsess over UA budgets, creative variations, and dashboards — yet leave untapped conversion sitting on the table simply because the storefront experience isn’t aligned with how users actually arrive. To get clarity on what really moves the needle, we’re sharing with you our App Talks interview with Vivian Dang, Senior Director of Accounts & Client Services at Gummicube. Vivian breaks down why most teams still treat their App Store presence as static, why aggregate conversion numbers hide more than they reveal, and how to rebuild your storefront around traffic sources, intent, and user expectations. Across this conversation, Vivian shares practical strategies you can apply immediately — from structuring A/B tests that produce meaningful learnings, to building custom product pages that match funnel entry points, to using in-app events and promotional content to re-engage segments. If you want a clearer playbook for improving conversion and getting more value from every campaign, this episode is a must-listen. Let’s dive in: here’s Vivian Dang, Senior Director of Accounts & Client Services at Gummicube. Today’s topics include: Why aggregate conversion rates hide the real performance issues inside your App Store funnel How to use custom product pages and custom store listings to tailor the storefront to each traffic source Leveraging in-app events and promotional content to surface new features and re-engage lapsed users Building disciplined, hypothesis-driven A/B testing frameworks that deliver continuous learnings The key metrics that actually matter on iOS and Google Play — and how to measure impact channel by channel Links and Resources: Vivian Dang on LinkedIn Gummicube website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Vivian Dang “If you’re not tailoring your App Store experience to each of the different traffic funnels that exist, then you’re literally just spending money to drive users to the page and then lose them.” “A/B testing needs to be something where it’s extremely structured, where you have hypotheses going in so that you can get clearer answers at the very end of it.” “You should be taking stock of every single individual channel and source you have so you can best prepare yourself for launch and ultimately for your long-term success.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012