Why Email Marketing Sucks and How to Make It Not Suck

Hosts Katie Keith (Barn2 Plugins) and Zack Katz (GravityKit) are joined by Melissa Love from thedesignspace.co, who builds and sells Kadence add-ons, to explore what it takes to succeed when your product relies on someone else’s platform. We’ll unpack the realities of building an add-on business inside another company’s ecosystem – from navigating limitations and dependencies to building relationships that help your product thrive. 🎯 Key Takeaways 🧩 1. Build Where There’s a Proven Market — But Do Your Homework The biggest insight for me was how all three guests — Melissa (Star Cloud), Zack (GravityKit), and Katie (Barn2) — emphasized that building on top of a popular platform is a shortcut to product–market fit. But it’s not enough to just pick the biggest name. Melissa shared how her team interviewed potential ecosystems (like KadenceWP, Elementor, Divi) before committing — digging into: How active and open their developer communities were Whether founders were visible and communicative If the product had technical stability and funding longevity Zack echoed this: when he chose Gravity Forms, it wasn’t just the market share — it was their developer-first culture, predictable updates, and strong backward compatibility. 💡 Actionable takeaway: Before you build, vet your platform partner like an investor. Check their roadmap, Slack groups, and developer documentation. If they don’t value external developers, move on. 🤝 2. Treat the Platform Owner as a Partner — Not a Competitor This theme kept coming up: success in an add-on business depends on having a mutually beneficial relationship with the parent product. Zack shared that Gravity Forms gives certified developers Slack access, roadmap previews, and early GitHub updates — which let his team stay compatible and confident. Katie contrasted that with WooCommerce, where early on, there was zero relationship — and she had to grow independently. Only in recent years has WooCommerce opened up to community dialogue. Melissa described Cadence as “democratic,” letting devs monetize through Cadence Cloud and even licensing APIs. 💡 Actionable takeaway: Be proactive in communication. Offer feedback, share improvements, and show how your success lifts the platform’s ecosystem. Collaboration gets you access, visibility, and smoother integrations. ⚙️ 3. Expect Platform Risk — and Outperform It by Being Excellent Every guest admitted that when you build on someone else’s product, you’re vulnerable to that platform changing direction or adding your feature into core. But instead of fearing it, they all agreed on one defense: be the better version. Melissa: “We deal with threats by being excellent.” Her team invests in documentation, training, and customer education — things most platform developers don’t do. Zack: “If Gravity Forms built a GravityView competitor, we’d just have to be better.” Katie: pointed out how WooCommerce often adds basic versions of popular plugin features — but leaves plenty of room for specialized, advanced solutions. 💡 Actionable takeaway: Don’t just rely on your integration — differentiate through support, UX, and focus. Your edge is execution quality and customer experience, not just your technical connection. ✳️ In short: If I had to summarize this episode in one line: “Add-on success = great partner choice + great relationships + relentless excellence.” It’s a masterclass in how to build with an ecosystem, not under it. Mentioned in this Episode NameURLContextWooCommercehttps://woocommerce.comDiscussed as a major WordPress eCommerce platform that many developers build add-ons for.Gravity Formshttps://www.gravityforms.comReferenced multiple times as a base plugin ecosystem for third-party add-ons like GravityKit.GravityKithttps://www.gravitykit.comZack Katz’s product suite built on top of Gravity Forms.KadenceWPhttps://www.kadencewp.comMelissa’s current platform focus; mentioned for its “Cadence Cloud” feature and developer openness.Divihttps://www.elegantthemes.com/gallery/divi/Mentioned as one of the first ecosystems Melissa built for; the first third-party marketplace she participated in.Elementorhttps://elementor.comCompared alongside Divi as a design framework with large plugin ecosystems.StyleCloudhttps://stylecloud.coMelissa’s company; builds add-ons and hosts a Facebook community.Freemiushttps://freemius.comMentioned as WP Product Talk’s “growth partner” that handles plugin licensing and sales.GiveWPhttps://givewp.comUsed as an example of a plugin ecosystem originally forked from Easy Digital Downloads.Easy Digital Downloads (EDD)https://easydigitaldownloads.comReferenced as the base that GiveWP was forked from.Fluent Product Suite by WP Manage Ninjahttps://wpmanageninja.com/Mentioned in audience question about building internal systems on top of Fluent products.FloThemeshttps://flothemes.com/Former competitor in the photography WordPress theme space, referenced by Melissa.Genesis Frameworkhttps://www.studiopress.com/genesis-framework/Cited as one of the earliest WordPress ecosystems to inspire add-on marketplaces.Foodie Pro Themehttps://feastdesignco.com/foodie-pro/Mentioned in a discussion of third-party acquisitions within the Genesis ecosystem.

It’s that time of year again—Black Friday and Cyber Monday are almost here, and WordPress product owners are gearing up for their biggest sales season. Join us for Black Friday Strategies for WordPress Products, a special episode where our co-hosts share proven tactics, lessons learned, and insider advice for running high-performing holiday promotions. We’ll cover everything from pricing psychology to partnership campaigns, so you can make the most of your Cyber Monday WordPress plugins strategy. 🎯 Key Takeaways 🧭 1. Black Friday Is About Meeting Customer Expectations — Not Just Discounts If there’s one drum the whole panel kept beating, it’s this: you don’t have to love Black Friday, but you can’t ignore it. Zack Katz (GravityKit) admitted he used to resist the consumerism of it all — he even tried a “Giving Thanks” sale instead — but eventually realized that expectation trumps philosophy. Customers come to your site that week expecting a deal. If they don’t find one, they’ll just go buy a similar plugin from someone who’s running one. Katie Keith (Barn2) added a nuanced point: even if you don’t discount, you still need to “show up” in the conversation. A promotion doesn’t have to mean a percentage off; it can mean a lifetime plan, a bonus add-on, or an early renewal perk. Ian Misner (KestrelWP) framed it perfectly: “Black Friday is the one time of year your audience’s buying intent shows up for free — so lean into it.” For product founders, the takeaway is clear: Black Friday is less about sales psychology and more about participation. You can choose the format — bundle, credit, or limited edition offer — but being absent makes you invisible. 💌 2. Email Segmentation Is the Unsung Hero of Black Friday Wins Every panelist agreed: email drives the majority of Black Friday revenue. But what separated their results wasn’t volume — it was segmentation. Ian shared that last year, his team learned people will “let you email them way more than usual” during Black Friday week — as long as the messages feel relevant. He’s now leaning into deep segmentation and personalization, even with a relatively small list (~10K subscribers). Matt Cromwell (ex-StellarWP) highlighted a specific tactic he learned from Chris Lema: “Put a link at the top of every email saying, ‘Not into Black Friday promos? Click here,’ and tag them as opt-out. That way, you can email aggressively without burning out your long-term subscribers.” Katie Keith built on that, explaining how Barn2 tailors their Black Friday messages by customer type — offering upgrades or cross-sells to existing users instead of generic discounts. So the tactical lesson here: Start early. Warm up your list before November. Segment smartly. “New,” “active,” and “churned” users need different offers. Give control. Let people opt out without unsubscribing altogether. Black Friday email success isn’t just “more emails.” It’s more respect with strategy. 💡 3. Treat Black Friday Like a Retention Strategy — Not a One-Weekend Cash Grab This was one of the most refreshing themes of the episode: all four co-hosts talked about turning Black Friday customers into long-term loyalists. Ian described how CheckoutWC is using their “Account Funds for WooCommerce” extension to give customers store credit or rewards that bring them back in January. Katie and Zack both shared stories of early renewal campaigns — offering existing subscribers a smaller pre-Black Friday discount (like 25% off instead of 40%) to renew early and skip the chaos. Ian summed it up well: “It’s not about the four days — it’s about how you attach those buyers to you so they keep buying after the sale.” That’s also why several of them prefer Cyber Monday positioning over Black Friday — it aligns with digital products, software, and continuity rather than impulse shopping. The broader takeaway: treat Black Friday as a loyalty event, not just a sales event. Build offers that bring customers back, not just in. 💬 Mentioned in this Episode Name / LabelURLContextMatt Cromwell’s personal bloghttps://www.mattcromwell.com/finding-the-next-right-thing/Matt announced it’s his last day at StellarWP and referenced a post he wrote explaining his transition.WP Product Talk websitehttps://wpproducttalk.comMentioned multiple times — where Matt’s article about FIUs partnership was published and where blog roundups will appear.Freemius https://freemius.comWP Product Talk’s growth partner helping reach 10K YouTube subscribers.YouTube (WP Product Talk channel)https://www.youtube.com/@wpproducttalkReferenced in the “road to 10,000 subscribers” announcement and in calls to subscribe.CheckoutWC / KestrelWPhttps://checkoutwc.com / https://kestrelwp.comIan mentioned giving away a WooCommerce extension (“Account Funds for WooCommerce”) as part of their Black Friday promotion.Account Funds for WooCommercehttps://kestrelwp.com/products/account-funds-for-woocommerceIan’s WooCommerce extension discussed as part of their Black Friday bundle strategy.Popup Makerhttps://wppopupmaker.comZack Katz recommended using Popup Maker to build email lists and promote Black Friday deals.Restreamhttps://restream.ioMatt mentioned this as the platform they use to live-stream the podcast, praising its Black Friday banner example.Elegant Themeshttps://www.elegantthemes.comDiscussed as an example of effective Black Friday marketing; their homepage “takeover” and real urgency units were referenced.WP Enginehttps://wpengine.comCited as another example, known for a large modal takeover during Black Friday.PlayStationhttps://www.playstation.comMentioned in comparison to Black Friday design examples (big hero banner, neon colors).Bosehttps://www.bose.comCited as an example of a minimal Black Friday landing experience.SiteGroundhttps://www.siteground.comUsed as an example of a full-site takeover during Black Friday sales.Liquid Webhttps://www.liquidweb.comAnother visual example discussed for its Black Friday hero design.Nexushttps://www.nexcess.netMentioned in Matt’s Black Friday design walkthrough (small banner example).Applehttps://www.apple.comDiscussed in context of not offering traditional Black Friday discounts (gift card instead).Targethttps://www.target.comReferenced as a reseller that participates in Apple’s gift card promos.Costcohttps://www.costco.comSame context as Target — participates in Apple’s gift card promotions.Recapture.iohttps://recapture.ioZack Katz referenced this for automated abandoned cart flows during Black Friday campaigns.Stranger Studios – Sitewide Sales Pluginhttps://sitewidesales.comZack recommended this plugin for handling automated discounting during Black Friday; compatible with EDD and WooCommerce.Design Space (Melissa Love’s company)https://thedesignspace.coMentioned in preview of next episode — upcoming guest Melissa Love from Majorca.Kadencehttps://www.kadencewp.comReferenced because Melissa Love sells Kadence add-ons.Gravity Formshttps://www.gravityforms.comMentioned as the base plugin for Zack Katz’s add-ons (GravityKit).WooCommercehttps://woocommerce.comReferenced throughout — Katie Keith’s add-ons, Ian’s account funds plugin, and general Black Friday tactics.Barn2 Pluginshttps://barn2.comKatie Keith’s company, referenced in introductions and when discussing discount tactics.StellarWPhttps://stellarwp.comMentioned in Matt’s farewell announcement.

As product founders, we LOVE when customers share ideas…but how do you decide which requests to act on and which to let go? In this episode, Robby McCullough and Justin Busa from Beaver Builder join us to talk about finding that balance between listening and overbuilding, how Beaver Builder approaches feedback, and why saying “no” can actually make your product better. 👉 Tune in to learn how to turn feedback into focus without letting feature creep take over.

AI is changing how WordPress product teams handle customer support—but not every experiment delivers results. Join us for “AI in Support: What Works, What Doesn’t, and What’s Next” as Aaron Edwards, Founder of Docsbot, sits down with co-hosts Matt Cromwell and Zack Katz to share real lessons from building and deploying AI in WordPress support. We’ll explore what AI does best today, where it still falls short, and what’s coming next for product owners who want to scale smarter without losing the human touch. Tune in October 15 at Noon Eastern Time for this lively, future-focused discussion on the evolving world of AI in WordPress support. Show notes: DocsBot.AI (not "DocSpot"!) Cromwell's blog article: The Real Power of AI in Support Isn’t Fewer Tickets; It’s Better Answers for More People

Running multiple WordPress products under one roof can be both an opportunity and a challenge. In this episode of WP Product Talk, hosts Katie Keith (Barn2 Plugins) and Matt Cromwell (GiveWP/StellarWP) sit down with Ian Misner, Co-Founder and General Manager of Kestrel, to explore how product companies can juggle competing priorities without losing focus. We’ll dive into: ✅ How to decide when to build a new product versus doubling down on an existing one ✅ The frameworks and habits that help multi-product teams stay aligned ✅ Real-world examples of cross-promotion that actually drive growth ✅ Common mistakes that fragment focus and how to avoid them If you’re managing - or planning to manage - more than one WordPress product, this episode will give you practical insights to help you balance growth across your portfolio.

When you build a product, the first and most important question isn’t what features should we add? — it’s who are we building for? In this episode of WP Product Talk, we’re joined by Robert Abela of Melapress to explore how your audience shapes every decision you make. From enterprises that demand security and compliance, to agencies that need scalability and flexibility, to end users who want simplicity and speed, your product’s direction, pricing, support model, and growth strategy all hinge on understanding your customer. We dig into: The key differences between building for enterprises, agencies, and end users How to identify your true audience and stay focused on their needs Real-world trade-offs product makers face when choosing their market Lessons from Robert’s journey at Melapress and how he’s navigated audience alignment If you’ve ever struggled with feature creep, pricing decisions, or figuring out who your marketing should target, this episode is for you!

Lifetime deals often look like the perfect launch strategy — quick cash, loyal early adopters, and momentum out of the gate. But what happens after the rush? Join us as Lesley Sim, fresh off launching her new product Event Koi, shares the behind-the-scenes of kicking off with a lifetime deal. Co-hosts Katie Keith and Matt Cromwell will explore how lifetime sales shape product growth, customer feedback, and long-term sustainability for WordPress founders. If you’ve ever wondered whether lifetime deals are a rocket booster or a weight that drags you down, this episode is for you.

In this episode of WP Product Talk, hosts Katie Keith (Barn2 Plugins) and Zack Katz (GravityKit & TrustedLogin) are joined by James Baldacchino, Head of Strategy & SEO at Ellipsis, to dig into how AI is reshaping content strategy for WordPress products. James shares Ellipsis’ groundbreaking research into how products get chosen for inclusion in AI overviews, along with practical ways you can optimize both new and existing content to stay visible in this new search landscape. We cover: ✅ How AI systems decide which products to highlight ✅ What makes content “AI-friendly” (and what doesn’t) ✅ Adjustments you can make to your current content strategy ✅ Opportunities to future-proof your marketing as AI search grows If you want your product to stand out in the era of AI-driven search, this episode gives you actionable insights and clear steps to take advantage of the shift.

We’re joined by WordPress Co-Founder Matt Mullenweg to explore his vision for how AI is reshaping the WordPress ecosystem. From the Core AI initiative to Elementor’s “Angie,” to the WP Ai builder and new AI-powered browsers, Matt has been vocal that this is one of the most exciting moments in WordPress history. We’ll dig into how plugin and theme developers can prepare, what Automattic is experimenting with internally, and how AI could redefine workflows, usability testing, and even data portability across the web. If you’re building WordPress products, this conversation is your chance to hear directly from Matt about the opportunities — and risks — of AI adoption. We’ll also take live questions, so bring your perspective and join the discussion about the future of WordPress and AI. Links: Ma.tt Core AI AI Building Blocks WordPress Playground Telex post on X by Jamie Marsland

In this episode, Zack sits down with Jack Arturo, founder of Very Good Plugins and WP Fusion to dig into the real-world impact of AI automations. We go beyond theory and talk about: How Jack is already using AI to streamline customer support and business operations What’s working today in AI automation inside WordPress businesses Where the biggest opportunities (and pitfalls) lie for product makers Practical steps you can take to start automating your own workflows Whether you’re curious about saving hours each week, scaling your team’s capacity, or just trying to figure out what’s actually possible with today’s AI tools, this conversation will give you the clarity and inspiration you need! Links from the show Jack's AI-generated notes for what to discuss Jack's ongoing Claude Automation Hub repository Claude Desktop Claude Code