Fierce Calling

What happens when the wounds, detours, and difficult seasons of your life become part of God’s calling? In this episode of Fierce Calling, Doris sits down with Deborah Rutherford, poet, podcast host, speaker, Emmy award winning makeup artist, and author of Prodigal Daughter: Poems of Light for the Lost Ones, to talk about a journey from childhood trauma and spiritual confusion to healing, surrender, and grace. Deborah shares how poetry became a lifeline during painful years, how she eventually rediscovered Jesus while working in Budapest, and how God prepared her through decades as an Emmy Award-winning makeup artist before leading her into writing. She also opens up about walking through career uncertainty, marriage and financial struggles, and paying off $150,000 in credit card debt in 22 months! Together, Doris and Deborah Rutherford reflect on God’s providence, the difference Jesus makes in hard seasons, and as Doris loves to share: Our past stories don’t discredit our grace stories, they become part of it. What Deborah shares will encourage, inspire, and challenge you, so listen in! Quotes from the show: Hollywood’s Anti-Christian Double Standard: “You’re not supposed to talk about somebody’s religion at work, but that seemed to be sort of the okay thing to make fun of.” – Deborah Rutherford “When We Mistake Our Fathers for God: we can mistake God for the attributes of our own fathers or the, or the men in our lives who were supposed to protect us and didn’t.” – Deborah Rutherford Grateful for Salvation—and a Story to Share: “I wake up, you know, every day being grateful for my salvation, but also grateful and grateful, not also, but grateful that he gave me a book to write to tell people about what he’s done in my life.” – Deborah Rutherford 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways 03:18 Introducing Deborah and her book 08:52 Finding Faith and Healing 10:51 Moving from LA to Georgia 14:25 Starting Christian writing journey 18:08 Forming a Writing Group 21:59 Family secrets and denial discussed 24:36 Embracing Faith Amid Workplace Challenges 30:25 Choosing between makeup school and self-study 32:24 Adapting to the new dress code 37:38 Reflecting on career and faith journey 38:32 Balancing marketing and writing 44:10 Deborah’s testimony and book discussion 45:37 Reflecting on faith and gratitude 48:56 Sharing faith and personal testimony 🤝 Connect with Deborah! You can connect with Deborah at deborahrutherford.com and find her book, more about her, encouraging blog, podcast, resources, and more! You can also find her here: Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DeborahRutherford-Behold-Her DeborahRutherford.substack.com Instagram @deborahrutherfordwrites Deborah Rutherford is a poet, author, speaker, and Emmy recipient for her makeup artistry in film and television. Her poem “Dear Lord Only You” was recognized in the Storytellers Poetry Contest. Her debut collection, Prodigal Daughter: Poems of Light for the Lost Ones, reflects her journey of restoration, grace, and hope in Christ. Deborah hosts the Behold-Her Beauty Podcast and has been published in The Way Back to Ourselves, Vessels of Light, Calla Press, and Prosetrics. She lives in Georgia with her husband, Don, and enjoys singing old hymns, drinking bold coffee, and walking under the pines. 🙏 Remember, Friend, That Your Story Matters! As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in December 2026, and actively booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Show Disclaimer The views and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy, position, or views of this podcast, its hosts, or its sponsors. The views expressed in this episode or any other episodes of this podcast are for informational purposes only. This content does not replace professional medical advice, mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Transcript Doris Swift [00:00:00 – 00:01:35] What if your hardest seasons, your deepest passions, and all the things you’ve walked through and are currently walking through were meant to become the very calling God has placed on your life? Welcome to the Fierce Calling Podcast. I’m your host, Doris Swift, and I invite guests who are taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and share their stories Of faith, hard seasons, resilience, and their calling. So together we’ll discover how God uses every part of our stories, and how when we say yes to Him and use our gifts to impact the world, that God can do extraordinary things in the midst of our ordinary days. And sometimes hearing someone else’s yes to God is just what we need To find the courage to say yes to Him too. So my hope is that the stories you hear will encourage, inspire, and challenge you to step out and discover your own fierce calling, because your story may be the very place where God is preparing you to jump into the work He prepared in advance for you to do and to follow Jesus in deeper and more profound ways. So yes, this is Fierce Calling. And if you’re ready to discover where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and step out in faith to make a difference, you’re in the right place, friend. So listen in while I have a chat with today’s guest who has a message to share with you. Doris Swift [00:01:36 – 00:02:38] What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and His plan is to surrender it, surrender it to Him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Darris Swift, author of the award-winning 6-week Bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever-present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others. Doris Swift [00:02:39 – 00:03:18] You can do it on your own or with a group. If you’re looking for a Bible study, check it out, friends. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s time to take your joy back. Hi friends, welcome back to the Fierce Calling Podcast. And I am excited today to welcome my friend Deborah Rutherford. She has been so encouraging to me over time with her ministry, Behold Her Beauty that she has been doing, and we’ve connected on different other levels with her ministry work, and she was very gracious in helping launch my book. Doris Swift [00:03:18 – 00:04:17] And so I’ve been wanting to have her on for a while, and then I discovered she had a book that came out, and so I got— I just kind of jumped on that, and I have that. So we’re going to talk about that today, but I also want to give you a little background about Deborah, and then I’ll let her kind of share more about that. So she is a Christian wife, award-winning poet, she’s a speaker, and an Emmy Award-winning makeup artist. So this is so fascinating. And so she has been on this pilgrimage, as she puts it, from a stolen childhood to a life of grace. In the heart of her debut poetry collection, Prodigal Daughter, Poems of Light for the Lost Ones, and I have it right here with me, Prodigal Daughter. It’s beautiful and filled with scripture and lovely poetry. And Deborah lives in Georgia with her husband Don, so she’s not too far from me. Doris Swift [00:04:17 – 00:04:24] I’m in Florida. And so we are excited to get into this conversation. Welcome to the show, Deborah. It’s great to have you on. Deborah Rutherford [00:04:24 – 00:04:39] Great to be here. Thank you, Dorothy. I’m so excited to be here. Um, you are lovely, and, um, I love whenever I see you on social media. I loved being in your book launch. Um, I love your book, so it’s very exciting to be here with you. Doris Swift [00:04:40 – 00:05:11] Such a blessing. I love how God connects us. He puts us together, um, with others to encourage us who may be walking a similar path in, in writing or not, you know. And it’s like, so it’s just so cool that we have a lot of the same author friends in the circles that we’re in and everything. But just because we are, uh, I think we’ve all been the woman at the well. We’ve all been prodigal daughters at one time or another, and we’re sisters in Christ. So that is the bond of unity right there. That is cool. Doris Swift [00:05:11 – 00:05:28] The love is the perfect bond of unity, as God said. So anyway, I’d just love to get into this, Deborah. So if you could, um, just share some of your story and how you’re taking action where you’re passionate compassion and conviction intersect? Deborah Rutherford [00:05:30 – 00:06:04] Let’s see, I have my story. It’s a long story, but it’s a love story. It’s a love story with God. I, you know, grew up in a kind of dysfunctional home and background. My parents loved me, but there was lots of dysfunction. My father was struggling with pain medication and alcoholism. And we had a relative that was too touchy with us young girls. Hopefully not. Deborah Rutherford [00:06:04 – 00:06:48] Yes, yes. And it was— and I shouldn’t even say touchy, I should say molesting. So I don’t want it to act to put light on it because I know it’s very painful for people. Yes. And it was for me and those in my family who suffered that. But In those days and in my family, we didn’t talk about things, and so you kind of put everything down. And thankfully, in middle school, I had a creative writing teacher that taught us poetry and writing. And I really do believe that God gave me that gift to tether me to him during, of course, my trouble at home. Deborah Rutherford [00:06:49 – 00:07:30] that I would write. I have like early prayers and pleas to him, and of course things about boys too, but— Yeah. As young girls do. And but then I— part of me, of course, wanted to wander. I’m not gonna say that it was all the traumatic things. It was that too. Of course I wanted to get out in the big world and thought I knew better. But also too, I think having unresolved healing from trauma made me mistake God for maybe the villain and, and run, run from him. Deborah Rutherford [00:07:30 – 00:08:27] And so I did. And so years went by and I went into music, poetry, and then I went into becoming a makeup artist. And During this period, I went through, you know, an eating disorder, self-harm, just many things, loss, abortion. And it was— but I kept trying to fix myself, you know. I went to therapists and psychologists and holistic doctors and all those kinds of things. And— But thankfully too, God put me together with my husband about 34 years ago, who was a prodigal too, wild child, and we came home to God together. One day I took a job that I probably shouldn’t have. He was very angry about it. Deborah Rutherford [00:08:27 – 00:08:51] He didn’t want me to go, and I was in Budapest. But during this separation, God was working on both of our hearts. So we were Skyping and he said, I’m reading the Bible. And I was like, oh! I want to read it too. And so he said, you’re in a hotel, look in the drawer. And it was there. Wow. And so that evening I read, you know, about Jesus’ healings. Deborah Rutherford [00:08:52 – 00:09:48] And for me, that was the— I knew I needed healing. And it opened my eyes back up. I mean, that was— I felt the Holy Spirit swoosh into me. And it opened my eyes back up and I remembered the Jesus that I had forgotten, the one that I knew as a child, the one. And I remember going to work the next day, so I’m in a makeup trailer with non-believers. Now granted, around the people around me, the Hungarians, they’re all mostly Christians, but I’m running around everybody going, did you know Jesus was a healer? I had forgotten And I was so excited. And my, my non-believer makeup crew and hairstylist crew people were just like, okay, she’s, she’s okay. She’s, she’s having a moment here. Deborah Rutherford [00:09:48 – 00:09:48] You know? Doris Swift [00:09:49 – 00:09:49] Yeah. Deborah Rutherford [00:09:49 – 00:10:51] And I was so excited about it. And so I had been probably halfway into my 30-year career at that point, and now I come back as a believer. And I’m like, whoa, where am I? Because it was such a contrast. You know, it just— what I had been thinking that life was and what I was living for and had left me so empty. And you can have money, you can have houses, you can have all those things. and still be empty without God filling, filling your heart. And that’s where I, where I was. And, and so that during the next 15 years, that transition— and my, my husband worked with, works with, worked with me in film as a makeup artist too. Deborah Rutherford [00:10:51 – 00:12:09] So we were able to transition out of Los Angeles Hollywood to Georgia Hollywood. As the industry, a lot of it had come out here, and my husband’s family is in Tennessee, so we wanted to get closer. And my parents had passed, and so we came out here, and it was a battle, the industry. There was a lot of— Two-sided battle. One was There was a lot of betrayal, a lot of just wanting us to be involved in scenes that were ungodly, you know, a lot of hearing a lot of anti-Christian messaging and that sort of thing. Like, you’re not supposed to talk about somebody’s religion at work, but that seemed to be sort of the okay thing to make fun of. But I had learned by this point to— by the time we got out to Georgia, I had learned that, or at least God taught me that at least Jesus was on their mind. And I heard, because I heard Billy Graham say, like, people were very upset in his day about Jesus Christ Superstar. Deborah Rutherford [00:12:09 – 00:12:34] Mm-hmm. And he said, Jesus, who is this Jesus? He’s on everybody’s mind. And so every time somebody would maybe say Jesus’ name not in proper way, you know, or swear or whatever, I would think, ah, he’s on their mind, you know, and then pray for them because that’s what they don’t know, they don’t understand, or maybe they do and that might be worse for them. Doris Swift [00:12:34 – 00:12:34] Yes. Deborah Rutherford [00:12:35 – 00:13:37] Um, but then the other side is when I would go, okay, when I was not working, because in my— that job, you would work like 6 months and you’d have like 3 months off to recuperate from those 6 months of work. And when I was off, I was a wonderful Christian at church, at the bookstore, at the grocery store. But when I would walk back on that lot, a lot of my old habits were tempting me. My, um, being jealousy, ambition, competition. Somebody got a promotion over me. Mm-hmm. And so, because I kept thinking that, that, okay God, I’m with you now, when are you gonna take me away from this? What am I gonna do next? Mm-hmm. Why am I still here? You know, the years went on and I realized that it’s because I needed to be there to learn how to walk into that environment and not put on, as Apostle Paul’s, you know, the old clothes. Deborah Rutherford [00:13:38 – 00:14:15] Like, I was putting on old clothes old attitudes, old habits, and they weren’t, you know, to go forward where I would be doing what I’m doing now. Mm-hmm. God didn’t want me to, to have that on me, you know. I needed to— I needed to— the sanctification walk, you know. But he was preparing me by teaching me how to, um, say no to those temptations, to those old ways, to those habits. And when you’ve walked many years in them, it’s— it can be a little— it’s harder, I think, than if— Doris Swift [00:14:16 – 00:14:16] yeah, Deborah Rutherford [00:14:16 – 00:14:24] maybe. I mean, I think each person struggles with their own area of temptation, you know? And— Doris Swift [00:14:24 – 00:14:25] Yeah. Deborah Rutherford [00:14:25 – 00:15:16] Yeah, so that’s kind of, you know, and then I— in 2002-01, I felt God saying— I had joined Compel, and I felt like God saying, share your faith through writing. And I took an internship with author Sarah Gerringer about a year scheduling her Twitter, and she coached me on— and I thought, am I crazy? I’m a 60— at the time, 62-year-old woman, professional in my field, taking the internship. And then I felt God say, if you want to learn what it means to be a Christian author, this is your opportunity. You need to learn how hard you’re gonna have to work and how faithful you’re gonna have to be. And I saw how hard she works, and I was like, whoa, okay. Doris Swift [00:15:16 – 00:15:17] Yeah. Deborah Rutherford [00:15:18 – 00:15:54] And then another thing I used to always say is, when I retire, I’m gonna be a writer. And so Interesting enough, that’s so ’62 to ’65. And then you know how God’s timing works. The industry that I’m in went through a writer’s strike. AI came in, streaming came in, and a lot of the work went away. A lot of it went to overseas. A lot of it— it’s just less of it because there’s not as much— Income. jobs in that industry anymore. Deborah Rutherford [00:15:55 – 00:16:28] And so it was a perfect opportunity for me to take my retirement and let go of that world. Now also, on the very last job that I did, which was the studio job, I’m gonna say, was Captain America 4. Yeah. And at the very end of it, I felt like I had come through that shoot without the old habits, right? And now it was, it was a treacherous path to walk because you’re walking alongside people who— Doris Swift [00:16:28 – 00:16:28] It wasn’t easy. Deborah Rutherford [00:16:29 – 00:16:35] Who, um, don’t believe and don’t always play fair. But I, I felt like, okay. Doris Swift [00:16:35 – 00:16:35] Yes. Deborah Rutherford [00:16:36 – 00:17:12] And I remember saying to God, if this is the last one, I’m so good with it. Thank you. This is a beautiful one to go out on. And so it was the last studio one. Now I haven’t sold all my things because I haven’t heard God say, do that. But last December, an independent group of filmmakers here had asked us to come and work for them, and it turned out that many of them were Christians, just by chance. Wow. You only really have to kind of know somebody, just one person in one area. Deborah Rutherford [00:17:14 – 00:17:26] I’m in contact with only one— well, now another one because she was a Christian actress that I met on that. But before her, a non-Christian actress, because I kind of call her a pre-believer. I really feel she’s a pre-believer. Doris Swift [00:17:27 – 00:17:27] Yeah. Um, Deborah Rutherford [00:17:28 – 00:18:06] and she, she’s kind of the only person I kind of keep in contact with on Instagram. Mm-hmm. And then her husband was coming out here to do an independent thing. And so she made that happen or brought us in. But I know it’s all kind of a God thing because it was just how he works. And so it’s just been— Yes. That’s sort of— that’s my journey. And then at the same time as all this was coming, my writing, I joined up with the— my, I guess we call it our writing cohort, our Unexpected Blessing Writers. Deborah Rutherford [00:18:08 – 00:19:31] And we all met on Compel in a little Facebook chat too we started, and then we started our little group, and then we said, praying, what do you want us to do, God? And we, okay, do a book. And so we’ve done 2, and now we’re working on our 3rd, and that will, for next year. And then at the same time, I had all this poetry from my life. And I remember when we moved out here in 2016, I had taken it all. You know, I had files and all this stuff, and I thought, how do I get 6 decades of life into a book? And so I divided it up into 5 chapters. Now, the only thing that really remains in the book are the 5 chapters. They’re really— They were innocence, Strife, awakening, restoration, and dance. I kept those, but what the other writing became was emotional mining, because I wanted everything in the book to be from the lens of who I am as a mature woman, as a woman who loves God, as one looking back, seeing how God had— was there nonstop through every little situation. Deborah Rutherford [00:19:32 – 00:19:35] Now I can look back and go, wow, he was there with me. Doris Swift [00:19:37 – 00:20:04] Yeah, yeah, he was. That’s really beautiful with this journey that you shared, and just such a precious thing because when you shared early on and when you were kind of going over the beginning of your story, how you felt like God was the villain And was that because you felt like he was not there when you were struggling through childhood things? Or what do you think was— Deborah Rutherford [00:20:05 – 00:21:09] I think that was— and I learned this from, um, uh, Roseanne Quillen in her book Father, about, you know, that, um, we can mistake God for the attributes of our own fathers or the, or the men in our lives who were supposed to protect us and didn’t. And, and that’s— so that’s what I, I was doing. I didn’t really understand, um, until God brought me back home. I didn’t really understand, although, although I had one at coming into my adulthood, I didn’t understand the personal relationship part. Um, and I didn’t understand the supernatural part. There are many things where, where I had grown up in the Catholic religion and my husband grew up in the Baptist religion. So when we came back to God, he gave me Dr. Charles Stanley’s Christian Handbook. Deborah Rutherford [00:21:10 – 00:21:57] Mm-hmm. He’s like, I think you better read this. And it was amazing. It taught me so much that I didn’t understand about everything, just things that maybe as a child I might have just childlike knew, but then going into my adulthood, I needed to know these things, and I didn’t have that at that time. And so I think that that’s kind of where that comes from. Also, both my father and the relative that molested me were very considered very pious in the church. Doris Swift [00:21:58 – 00:21:59] Oh, okay. Deborah Rutherford [00:21:59 – 00:23:00] And so I just thought, if that, you know, and this is just, this is not a, this is just what happened. None of it needed to happen because One cousin, and I don’t think she will hear this, but her mother didn’t tell anybody. And so it was allowed to keep happening to other cousins. Okay. He would get you to come work in his school, his business, as a young girl. And then when it happened to my sister, my mother knew, And she still let me go there. And my sister and I, we talk about this today, and we’re both— we both love my mother’s past, and we love her and everything. We just— sometimes we’re like, you know, like, like, I think there was just such this denial, and maybe they could protect, and maybe it wouldn’t happen, and maybe it wasn’t true, and maybe— I don’t know. Deborah Rutherford [00:23:01 – 00:23:01] I don’t know. Doris Swift [00:23:02 – 00:23:02] Yeah, Deborah Rutherford [00:23:02 – 00:23:02] you know, Doris Swift [00:23:03 – 00:23:04] yeah, that could be so confusing. Deborah Rutherford [00:23:05 – 00:23:06] Yeah, Doris Swift [00:23:06 – 00:23:11] you know, for a young, a young person, but for any somebody any age, you know. Deborah Rutherford [00:23:11 – 00:24:05] Yeah, so I think that that’s where that came from, because I became quite, um, uh, terrified of what I call at the time hypocrisy, hypocrites, and organized religion. And but I was always searching, so I was like reading about, you know, world religions and reading, um, you know, New Age things. And, and believe me, if you would have ever said, oh, do witchcraft, I would have gone, oh no. But now I discovered after, after coming back to God that no, New Age is that. I was, you know, that was that. Yeah. And so it’s just being honest with ourselves and find, you know, when we don’t really know what we were doing And then when God shows us— and he’s so kind because he gently shows us— Doris Swift [00:24:06 – 00:24:06] Yes. Deborah Rutherford [00:24:06 – 00:24:35] What our act— the consequences of our actions and what we’re really doing. And it helps us understand, um, how it hurt us, why we shouldn’t do it. And, you know, and, and without any shame or, um, you know, condemnation, it was, it was more of This is— I love you this much to show you why you shouldn’t be doing that. Doris Swift [00:24:36 – 00:26:08] Yes, yes. And that conviction, you know, um, and, and it was so good how you were talking about when you then began to seek, you know, and then when Jesus became your Lord and Savior and you and your husband both were on this journey together, which is so beautiful how he did that. in both your hearts at this, you know, same time, and that it kind of stirred something in you. But then when you were going back to the places, you know, where you work, where you have been, you could see the contrast. And as you said, the two-sided battle and how there is such a double standard where you can’t really— well, you can’t talk about religion or, you know, share that with people at work, but yet it was okay to be persecuted and mocked for your faith. And obviously because the enemy does not want the name of Jesus spoken, but like you said, it was still on the minds of people because it stirred something up, you know. And, you know, the word says not to stir up trouble, but it also says, you know, that we are to share and be light. And sometimes what— how that comes out is just in the ways that we then have convictions about things that, well, I’m sorry, I’m not able— I can no longer do that, you know. Doris Swift [00:26:08 – 00:26:25] And then to share, it gives open doors to share. But I was interested to find out, because it sounds like you’ve worked on some very big movies, but how did you actually get into makeup artistry, and how did those doors open for you? Because I was wondering how that started. Deborah Rutherford [00:26:28 – 00:27:31] My husband knew about being a makeup artist because he grew up with the kind of the horror films like Day of the Dead and forget all of them, but that he was really, really liked them. And I had— was working at a music company, A&M Records, and I had a work injury and I had the opportunity to get vocational rehabilitation because they either have to give you a new job or give you a new life. And so I— and they didn’t want to give me a new job because I don’t know, all this stuff. I was vested. I’d been there 7 years and whatever the reasons were. So it was good though because the internet came in. And this is just— I just— All the timing. The internet came in And the job that I had, that company— that, well, that company sold and the internet came in and that work no longer exists. Deborah Rutherford [00:27:32 – 00:28:15] So it was just like this, like, for this amazing timing. Like, one of our friends who still works in the music industry says, you guys couldn’t have planned your escape any better. And so— But didn’t know we were escaping. We just were going on to one dream abruptly ended, and we used our creativity in another dream. But he knew about being a makeup artist, and I had gone to a vocational workshop, and which I wish I would have gone to in high school, but they said you’re an artistic scientific personality. You need to do something artistic with a little bit of science in it. You need to be indoors, outdoors. Mm-hmm. Deborah Rutherford [00:28:16 – 00:28:55] changing schedule all the time. And that was— or otherwise you won’t be as— I’ll call it fruitful now, but they probably said another word— and productive. Productive. And that was completely what was going on with me. I was stuck in a little office typing. And so I was thinking about becoming They give you the education, how many years. And at my age at the time, 34, I was thinking I should— maybe I could become a pre-vet assistant. My husband’s like, oh, you don’t want to do that because you love animals and you’re going to have to give them shots. Deborah Rutherford [00:28:55 – 00:29:45] And I’m like, oh, you’re right. And so he’s like, I think you should become a makeup artist, because he wanted to become one. But also because we were creative. We always did our posters and our flyers, and we’re painting. And you did a video, you put some makeup on. And, and I— and he had started building these little— they’re called build-up kits, but they’re usually a character or a creature from a movie. And so the guy that he was selling his work through knew a makeup artist named Dick Smith. So if anybody who knows anything about makeup history, Dick was like the, you know, the top of everything. Deborah Rutherford [00:29:45 – 00:30:24] Like, he’s the one that special makeup effects even exist to the quality that exists. And he did like The Godfather and Taxi, Cab Driver, and all those things. Mm-hmm. But he knew him, and so I called him and he’s like, oh my goodness, you are so green. I’m not— he had a course. He’s like, I’m not gonna take your money. He’s like, I’m gonna tell you how hard it’s gonna be. You’re a woman, you’re older than most people who get into this, you’re 34, but you can do it if you really work hard. Deborah Rutherford [00:30:25 – 00:31:18] So it’s like always Like, God has always given me the opportunity to have these people honestly tell me how hard it’s going to be, and then I can decide if, if I want to sign up for it, right? And it just— and so he said, either go to makeup school or buy a camera, read these books, and practice for 3 months and contact me. And so I said, well, I have the money. from the work— the workman’s compensation thing. And so he told me to go to Westmore Academy at the time. This— I don’t think it’s a school anymore, but the Westmores were a big makeup Hollywood family. And he said they have small classes right now with really good teachers. And so I, I went. It was like a 3-month— I think it was 3 months. Deborah Rutherford [00:31:19 – 00:32:02] And it was, you know, like 8 to 5, and it covered it. I look at it as like an entry level. It showed me all the different areas of makeup, which is actually huge. I had no idea that all of it that existed in it. And, and then it started sending you out on, in, you know, little internships. But one of my teachers He loved the music industry, and he loved me right away because that’s where I had come from. And so we kind of bonded. And then he, he needed to be— it’s just like, so like these— so Hollywood, really. Deborah Rutherford [00:32:03 – 00:32:21] But it’s also like, I look at all— it’s all providence, like where God’s led me. Mm-hmm. But he needed to replace himself because he got on a bigger job, and he worked in a lab. And so he sent me. I don’t think anybody else showed up. Doris Swift [00:32:23 – 00:32:23] Wow. Deborah Rutherford [00:32:24 – 00:33:19] And I come walking in, and I think at the time I had like overalls on with a little short shirt and motorcycle boots. And his wife’s looking at me like, goodness, who’s this? And they said, you need to wear jeans and a button-up shirt and tennis shoes. And okay, because I had spent so much time— part of my rebellion was also, I’m gonna dress the way I want, I’m gonna— and at this point in my life, I was like, okay. I was so grateful to have another opportunity to start over in something. I was like, okay, I’ll do what you guys say. And I think I cut my hair short, and I think I kind of went probably overboard for a moment. Till I met another female makeup artist named V. Neal, who is very big in the industry too. Deborah Rutherford [00:33:20 – 00:34:09] She did, like, recently The Hunger Games movies and Pirates of the Caribbean. And she was, you know, had hair and nails. And I was like, okay, you can be a woman in this business. Yeah. And I would go on to work for her later too. So that’s kind of how it just— and what I discovered in that business is that when you are new, people very open and everything, and what you— at least, at least for me, come in, but a lot of times they want free help. So you’re kind of interning, running around helping people. And then— but things change as soon as I got into the makeup union and started maybe going up for some of the same jobs, then it’s like, change, you know, change. Deborah Rutherford [00:34:10 – 00:34:18] And some of it could be very vicious, you know, on both sides, my side or their side, because now you’re competing. Doris Swift [00:34:18 – 00:34:36] Yeah, I imagine it is, because there’s a lot of competition. And it is interesting, I, I wouldn’t have guessed that because you are a woman, you know, that that would be a barrier. being a makeup artist. I would just think that, oh, well, that— but I guess that is the industry, right? Deborah Rutherford [00:34:36 – 00:35:28] Well, the industry when it started was all males, all heterosexual males. And I’m just going to say maybe they all weren’t, but that was kind of— and they were— that was their industry. And then what happened is one of the actresses complained about one of them doing her body makeup. And so women were the— women at that time were allowed to be hairstylists. And for many years, the hairstylist rate was lower, and that was a big, big battle to get them to have equal pay. Probably just recently, maybe like 10 years ago, they got it. So we’re talking about from the 1940s all the way. here. Deborah Rutherford [00:35:28 – 00:36:05] And I think that’s when the body makeup artists came in. And so that became a classification because you— to be— to work on movie sets, everybody has to be in a union. And so then they have these classifications about— and so makeup then became makeup. It was makeup and hair that became makeup, body makeup and hair. And then the special effects were under the makeup. But that started getting bigger too, as everything kind of got bigger and more specialized. People started branching off into areas. By time— Doris Swift [00:36:06 – 00:36:06] Yeah. Deborah Rutherford [00:36:06 – 00:37:07] I got into it, and some, some of the women I worked with, like say V, V. Neal, they started off— it was really hard for them. It was a very— because they were getting into the special effects side too. And that was kind of— as women became allowed to do makeup, makeup, the men became more— the special effects became more for men and the beauty became more for women. But many people wanted to do both. And so that was kind of— and, and both sides, it’s hard on both sides. Like, when my husband and I were coming up, we had the advantage to have some mentors who advised that we learn all of it. You just— you learn beauty, you learn special effects, you learn how to do hair. Deborah Rutherford [00:37:08 – 00:37:27] That way, they said, you’re handy. And so if they’re only making Westerns— Mm-hmm. You’ll get hired. If you’re only— they’re only doing a showtune movie, you’ll get hired. If they’re only doing, you know, pirates, you’ll get hired. And so it’s just kind of being versatile, I guess, is the, you know. Doris Swift [00:37:27 – 00:37:29] Yeah, not have like such a specialty. Deborah Rutherford [00:37:30 – 00:37:30] Yeah, yeah. Doris Swift [00:37:30 – 00:37:32] So that you could be more accessible. Deborah Rutherford [00:37:33 – 00:37:38] Yeah. And so that— and so that was kind of how, um, yeah, so it’s kind of— Doris Swift [00:37:38 – 00:38:31] Okay, well, that was interesting. Yeah, I was wondering about that. And You know, and it is amazing to look back over, like you were saying, you know, as where you are now and looking back over where God was all your life, really, and how he does equip. And, you know, how you were given advice in the makeup industry to make yourself available for all different ways to do it, you know, and all different types and to learn things so that you can have a very well-rounded type of resume or whatever. And then how you went on in your writing then to work with Sarah, these other things that are very helpful now in your writing. You’re sharing about your journey with God and sharing about God, you know. And so— and Sarah’s great too. She was my book launch manager. Doris Swift [00:38:32 – 00:39:22] So yeah, she does a wonderful job and she’s great with knowing how to do marketing and all of that, which is hard. for an author to know how to do all these things and do them well because, you know, you just want to write. And then, and then sometimes you have to hire people, but it’s nice if you have the kind of knowledge that you can do some things on your own. I kind of put those together when you were talking about your makeup journey and then, you know, your writing journey and all of that and how God does equip us through all the seasons of our life. And, you know, I just, uh, imagine when you— and I, I don’t remember if you had mentioned when you actually stepped away from this career, was it because you said something happened, right? Deborah Rutherford [00:39:22 – 00:39:48] Well, we had, we had a, um, it was like a— we had a, um, I, I was praying to one But we also— both my husbands were police. But also we had a writer’s strike not that long ago. I mean, the first, the first, the first was the pandemic, shut everything down. Doris Swift [00:39:48 – 00:39:50] Okay, yeah, closed down things, shut them Deborah Rutherford [00:39:50 – 00:40:45] down. Yeah, and then that, that was— started to rearrange that industry, and then it’s recovered some And then we had a writer’s strike, which I think was maybe 3 years ago in the US. And when it was actors’ writer’s strike, I think— no, writers. And, and when we strike here, the work doesn’t stop. The work— they take— the producers said, we’ll just go overseas, we’ll go somewhere else. So that’s kind of— we— My husband and I lived through a writer’s strike in Los Angeles in 19— oh, I forget what year it was, 2007, ’08. And, and it was really, really difficult, and we weren’t that prepared. We were like, whoa, because we just thought, oh, the money’s going to keep rolling in. Deborah Rutherford [00:40:46 – 00:41:09] And— Right. And we were living our lifestyle. We were living way beyond our means. Um, we had incurred a lot of debt, and it was a very scary moment in our lives, but we lived through it, and we came through it with our marriage and our house. And with the help of Dave Ramsey, we paid off our debt. Um, Doris Swift [00:41:10 – 00:41:12] yeah, but that’s another good testimony right there. Deborah Rutherford [00:41:12 – 00:41:45] Yeah. Oh my goodness, that, that would— that was the beginning of us, um, seeing how God’s just biblical design for marriage and life works. Because we had, um, the— there was a writer’s strike, then the housing market had fallen through. Um, I had enormous amounts of credit cards on debt. All of a sudden I went up to 20 for whatever that horrible fee was. Doris Swift [00:41:45 – 00:41:47] Yeah, yeah, it’s a trap. Deborah Rutherford [00:41:47 – 00:42:45] And, and I had no money in the bank. I had no job. And at that time, you know, we, we had lived together 13 years before we got married, and I carried those bad habits into the marriage, keeping the separate bank account, which is, which We changed after Dave Ramsey, with Dave Ramsey, and saw that that’s why you do that. You need to— and you’re in a marriage, you need to live as one, right? Yeah. And he explained that financial infidelity can be worse than physical infidelity. And we were— it was a moment where I thought, am I gonna lose my marriage? Am I gonna lose my house? Am I gonna— everything? Is it just gone now? So thankfully my husband was watching Fox News and saw Dave Ramsey cutting up credit cards. Mm-hmm. And he went, that’s it. Deborah Rutherford [00:42:46 – 00:43:28] And so we, you know, started watching his show, listening to him and identifying, you know, we had a hole in the boat. And, you know, because the idea is that you have a career problem or hole in the boat. We had a hole in the boat, big hole in the boat, and we needed it. plug it up. So, um, at the end of every program though, he said, um, you know, that financial freedom is peace, but the true Prince of Peace is Jesus Christ. And we would kind of get a little, you know, snarky and go, why does he have to do that? We don’t want a sermon, we want, you know, advice. Mm-hmm. And, but in 22 months, we had paid it off, $150,000 in credit card debt off. Deborah Rutherford [00:43:29 – 00:43:43] And we saw how biblical financial planning works. And we— and that really was some of the beginnings of, well, if that works, what else works? Doris Swift [00:43:43 – 00:43:43] Wow. Deborah Rutherford [00:43:44 – 00:43:53] And, you know, so it was— it was— he used, you know, God used that as a way to show us what he can do. Doris Swift [00:43:53 – 00:43:53] Yeah. Deborah Rutherford [00:43:54 – 00:44:08] And, um, and I remember going into, um, we visited, uh, Dave Ramsey’s radio show in Franklin. We went into his, his hall that you go in, the Freedom Hall, and you yell, I’m debt-free! And it was so amazing. Doris Swift [00:44:08 – 00:44:09] Wow, that is awesome to Deborah Rutherford [00:44:09 – 00:44:10] do that. Doris Swift [00:44:10 – 00:45:35] Yeah, I’m so glad that this part of your testimony came out because I think it’s really going to bless a lot of people who are struggling right now and needed some encouragement that God is you know, he has plans for us and good plans, and he wants us to be good stewards of our money, but also of our time and, you know, the— and the things that he puts into our hands. And so, I think that’s wonderful that you and your husband were on the same page in working toward this together, and that it was, you know, you thought everything was lost, but yet it’s when we get to those really dark places is when we really see the light the brightest, you know, that God has, you know, shone into our lives in the light of Christ. So, well, this has been so amazing, uh, Deborah. There’s been some really cool things that have come out that, you know, I— it just went a great direction, and I’m excited about that. And again, Deborah’s book is Prodigal Daughter: Poems of Light for the Lost Ones, and it’s beautiful. And if you could share with the listener, you know, if you have any last thought, and, um, then where the listener can connect with you and find your books and information and all of that. Deborah Rutherford [00:45:37 – 00:46:39] This has been a joy to sit with you, Doris, and it’s just to, you know, reflect and talk about, you know, God’s providence’s fingerprints over our lives and his goodness and his good plan and how, um, when we walk with him, we see, we get to participate in it. Mm-hmm. And it’s so just delightful and wonderful. Um, and I wake up, you know, every day being grateful for my salvation, but also grateful and grateful, not also, but grateful that he gave me a book to write to tell people about what he’s done in my life. And, um, so it’s, it’s Wonderful, thank you. And if you want the book, it’s, it’s on Amazon, Barnes& Noble, any of your favorite online bookstores. And my— you can find on my website too at deborarutherford.com. I have a Substack where, where I share my newsletter also there. Deborah Rutherford [00:46:40 – 00:47:36] And so you can— that’s Deborah Rutherford Substack. And Mostly active on Instagram and Facebook under Deborah Rutherford Writes. And those kind of places that you can find me, you can find Prodigal Daughter. And just like to share encouragement and hope. And it’s just, you know, this world can be very difficult. Mm-hmm. And, but I think with Jesus, he gives us the ability to, to hold that in one hand and in the other hand hold joy and his promises and his glory. And, and so that helps us, you know, it strengthens us, sustains us, comforts us, all of that through this, this, the hard parts of life. Doris Swift [00:47:36 – 00:47:37] Mm-hmm. Deborah Rutherford [00:47:38 – 00:47:39] Yeah, yeah, Doris Swift [00:47:39 – 00:47:45] yes, that’s so beautifully said. And, and thank you so much for being on the show, and I hope to have you back on. Deborah Rutherford [00:47:46 – 00:48:05] Thank you, thank you very much. And, um, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, I, I know that, that everyone’s journey is different, but in this sense, we’re all the same because of Jesus. And so, um, Yeah. Doris Swift [00:48:05 – 00:48:56] Yeah, that’s beautiful. And, um, so when you were sharing about all the ways that they can connect with you, I’ll put those links in the show notes so they can find you. And yeah, so this has been an amazing conversation, and I loved hearing all about your story because I knew some of it but not all of it, and now I know, and also our Fierce Calling audience as well. So thank you for sharing your heart with us, the hard times, the hard places, and the good places, and the blessings. And they all really are part of one story. So just to encourage, I always like to say that our past story doesn’t discredit our grace story. It becomes part of it, and it is part of it. And people need to hear the hard things that we’ve been through. Doris Swift [00:48:56 – 00:49:42] So that, you know, first of all, we can share how God brought us through these things, but also so that they can see where true freedom comes from, and it’s Jesus. He says in John 14, He’s the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through Him. So we just want to say the name and praise the name of Jesus. Amen. Thank you so much, friends, for listening and viewing today wherever you’re taking this content in. And I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect, which is their fierce calling. Until then, friends, have a blessed week and I will talk to you soon.

What happens when you go to bed living one life, and when you wake up, that life has totally changed? In this episode of Fierce Calling, Doris welcomes Lisa Appelo, author, speaker, and Bible teacher, who is passionate about helping women find hope in grief, talk about loss, seek comfort in God, and find hope when life takes an unexpected turn. Lisa suddenly became a widow in her forties and began walking through grief with her seven children. She shares how that experience led to her first book, Life Can Be Good Again, and her newest devotional journal, God of Comfort, which explores 50 aspects of God’s character for grieving hearts. This conversation offers honest encouragement for anyone facing any type of loss in their lives, as well as practical guidance for those who want to support someone in grief. Lisa explains: *Why grief isn’t a tidy set of stage *Why presence often matters more than perfect words *How simple questions like “How can I pray for you today?” can make space for authentic and meaningful connection. Together, Doris and Lisa point listeners back to the God who sees, sustains, understands, and remains with us. As Lisa says, “The way through grief is not a method. It’s not a prescription. It is a person”, and that person is the God of Comfort. What Lisa shares will encourage, inspire, and challenge you, so listen in! 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways 04:37 Finding encouragement during grief 06:56 Meeting and Marrying High School Sweetheart 11:20 The importance of community support 15:28 Navigating the complexity of grief 16:47 Discussing the Comfort of God’s Character 20:18 Collaborating with the editor 26:20 Discussing expressions of grief and support 29:11 Discovering personal faith insights 30:48 Writing Christian books with purpose 35:46 Dealing with unexpected life changes 39:27 Wrapping up the podcast chat 🤝 Connect with Lisa! You can connect with Lisa at lisaappelo.com and find all her books, social media links, blog, and free resources to encourage your heart. Lisa invites you to check out her newest book, God of Comfort: A Devotional Journal for the Grieving Heart and I definitely recommend grabbing extra copies to give as gifts! Lisa Appelo is a speaker, author, and ministry leader passionate about helping women find hope in grief. She suddenly became a widow and solo mom of seven, navigating her grief and shepherding her children through theirs. She helps women navigate grief through her speaking ministry as well as in-person and online grief groups. 🙏 Remember, Friend, That Your Story Matters! As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in December 2026, and actively booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Show Disclaimer The views and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy, position, or views of this podcast, its hosts, or its sponsors. The views expressed in this episode or any other episodes of this podcast are for informational purposes only. This content does not replace professional medical advice, mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Transcript Doris Swift [00:00:00 – 00:01:35] What if your hardest seasons, your deepest passions, and all the things you’ve walked through and are currently walking through were meant to become the very calling God has placed on your life? Welcome to the Fierce Calling Podcast. I’m your host, Dara Swift, and I invite guests who are taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and share their stories Of faith, hard seasons, resilience, and their calling. So together we’ll discover how God uses every part of our stories, and how when we say yes to Him and use our gifts to impact the world, that God can do extraordinary things in the midst of our ordinary days. And sometimes hearing someone else’s yes to God is just what we need To find the courage to say yes to Him too. So my hope is that the stories you hear will encourage, inspire, and challenge you to step out and discover your own fierce calling, because your story may be the very place where God is preparing you to jump into the work He prepared in advance for you to do and to follow Jesus in deeper and more profound ways. So yes, this is Fierce Calling. And if you’re ready to discover where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and step out in faith to make a difference, you’re in the right place, friend. So listen in while I have a chat with today’s guest who has a message to share with you. Doris Swift [00:01:36 – 00:02:27] What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and His plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to Him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Darris Swift, author of the award-winning 6-week Bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever-present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Doris Swift [00:02:27 – 00:03:01] Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, And share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. If you’re looking for a Bible study, check it out, friends. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. I am so happy to invite back my good friend Lisa Apolo. Doris Swift [00:03:01 – 00:03:40] She and I have known each other for quite some time, and It’s just encouraging to see her journey and how she’s ministered to so many hearts over these past several years. And I’m going to just tell you a little bit about her. She was on the show before, but it’s been a while, so I’m going to do a little refresh here. She’s a speaker, a writer, and a Bible teacher who is passionate about helping women find hope in grief. She helps women navigate losses through her speaking ministry, as well as in-person and online grief groups. She does a lot of events. Like that. And she also lives in Florida. Doris Swift [00:03:40 – 00:03:49] She’s very close to me, just a couple of hours away. So we’ll have to get together soon, as we always say. So welcome back to the show, Lisa. So great to have you back on. Lisa Appelo [00:03:50 – 00:03:51] Oh, thank you for having me, Doris. Doris Swift [00:03:52 – 00:04:34] This is very encouraging, and I can’t wait to talk about, first of all, your— the book that you had come out in ’22, which is right behind you, Life Can Be Good Again. And I also have that book, and I have a little story about that book, and I think I shared it with you, but also I posted it. In ’22, our house flooded when Hurricane Ian came through, and it was pretty devastating. It was really bad. And I just remember sorting through and picking up all the wet stuff all over the floor, all the clothes. Everything was just a mess and horrible. And, you know, I had sewage and all of that. Anyway, TMI. Doris Swift [00:04:37 – 00:05:20] But the encouraging thing was, as I was going through different things, God would like— there would just be these encouraging things that I would find. Like one time I found this scripture verse that I had written on like an index card and had put it in a Bible or something. And anyway, it had floated somewhere where I was cleaning that day. And so I found that. But then I came across your book, Life Can Be Good Again. And we talk about the grief journey, and most often it’s when we lose someone we love very dearly. But grief comes in a lot of different forms. And that was kind of like— it felt like a grieving time for, for me and for our family and everything. Lisa Appelo [00:05:20 – 00:05:21] For sure. Doris Swift [00:05:21 – 00:05:47] And, you know, and God redeems it. But I po— I remember posting the picture of it. It was kind of a little wet and yucky, but it just— life can be good again. It was so encouraging for me to find that. So, I just wanted to share that real quick because of that book, and I loved it so much. But today, we are also— which we can talk a little bit more about that book too, but today we are talking about this book, which is also behind you. Oops, I put this in front of my face. Lisa Appelo [00:05:47 – 00:05:48] That’s okay. Doris Swift [00:05:48 – 00:06:24] God of Comfort: A Devotional Journal for the Grieving Heart, and it’s like 50 Devotions on the Character of God. So, Lysa, I’m excited. It’s a beautiful book, and I’ve read through it, and it’s just, it’s just so comforting and just so full of God’s Scripture and encouragement. And so, I would love if you would share a little about your story, and then, you know, how this all came about, writing this devotional, and how you’re taking action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Lisa Appelo [00:06:25 – 00:06:54] Yes. I remember that picture so well that you texted to me and then you posted. It was so poignant because it was like a message for you in the middle of your, your pain and this loss. And that book specifically, that first book, uh, Life Can Be Good Again, does address all different kinds of grief. It’s not just loss of a person, but there’s a lot of ways that we can, it can be a diagnosis or an estrangement. There’s just so many ways that we can, um, come to, to, to really be living in a life that we didn’t see coming. Doris Swift [00:06:54 – 00:06:55] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:06:56 – 00:07:34] Um, so my story started, my, my chapter that I didn’t expect. You know, I was married to my high school sweetheart and we’d actually met in 7th grade, if you can believe it. He was just another boy in youth group across the room, but by high school we were really good friends. And then by our 11th grade year, we were dating. He was my first boyfriend. He was my only boyfriend. And I can remember him pulling up in his mom’s station wagon and looking out my bedroom window thinking, this is the first day of the rest of my life. And so, you know, we dated, we got married in college, we had kids, we started our careers, and life was not perfect. Lisa Appelo [00:07:34 – 00:07:59] I would not at all paint it as this idyllic, everything was rosy, because that’s not true life, is it? Um, we had struggles, we had things that we had to face. We had marriage issues we had to work through and children, you know, um, things that we had to work through. We had financial struggles as, as a new couple and just trying to get our feet on the ground as a, as a family. But by, um, this Father’s Day weekend, I was a mom of 7. Doris Swift [00:08:00 – 00:08:00] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:08:01 – 00:08:34] And, um, you know, my youngest was 4, my oldest was 19. And we had a really— it was Father’s Day weekend. We were heading out for a big trip the next day. And so the kids kind of had gone upstairs after dinner to sleep. I had put the little ones to bed and I was turning in early. I said goodnight to my husband like I had 1,000 other nights. He was gonna stay up and do some work. And he said, I’ll be in there in a minute, you know? Well, the next thing I know was the next morning it was dark and I woke up enough to hear his funny breathing on the pillow next to mine. Lisa Appelo [00:08:34 – 00:09:05] It was not— I was not awake enough to understand what was going on, but within a few minutes I could sense that something was wrong. I flipped on the overhead light and I could see immediately that something was very wrong. And so, you know, Doris, I did all the things. We called 911, we started CPR. We— they were there within minutes. They took him by ambulance. And when I got to the hospital, they took me to the room that you never want to go in. And a very kind ER doctor said that they had worked on Dan and they had never been able to revive him. Lisa Appelo [00:09:06 – 00:09:22] And so that was, that was it. Like no signs, no symptoms. I went to bed in one life and woke up in another. And so there I was in this, um, walking through grief and walking my 7 children through grief. Hmm. Doris Swift [00:09:22 – 00:10:07] Yeah, I just, um, remember how you describe going to bed as a wife and waking up as a widow, and how that is so— it’s kind of such a powerful statement that really, like, I don’t know, it speaks to our hearts in a way that, you know, we just never know what’s going to happen. But when you, um, and, and having 7 children Wow. And you having to also walk them through it while you were going through it when you were at the hospital. I guess the older kids could stay home with the younger kids, right? And then were you— was anybody with you there at the hospital or it happened so fast? It was at a strange hour, right? Lisa Appelo [00:10:08 – 00:10:26] It happened so fast. It was dark when I, when I got to the hospital still. Yes, my oldest was at camp. He had no idea. He was at camp council at Ridgecrest. Had no idea this was going on at home. But my daughter, my next daughter and son, they were like, 17 and 16 were there and they had been sleeping on sleeping bags outside of our rooms. They had heard me cry out. Lisa Appelo [00:10:27 – 00:10:49] My 4-year-old had crawled in between the two of us. And so, you know, I was like, you know, take the two little ones upstairs. You just go into, you go into survival mode and management mode, you know, as a mom and, and trying to, to do the next thing. When, when I was at the— I did have the, um, sense to call somebody. I called a friend, woke them up, and they beat me to the hospital, believe it or not. Doris Swift [00:10:50 – 00:10:50] Wow. Lisa Appelo [00:10:50 – 00:11:19] The friend and her husband. And so they were there waiting for me when I got there. And I called my sister and, um, that was it. That was the only 2 people I called. Um, and by the time I got home, word had gotten out. And my— I got home, was able to tell my children kind of one by one or 2 at a time what was going on. And, um, my front door began to open. Friends, neighbors were getting the word and were coming just to be with us in our loss. Doris Swift [00:11:20 – 00:12:04] Wow, how powerful was that to have so much community? And how important it is to have people that you can call at any hour of the day or night who will be there, you know, for you. And so it’s so important to build community and have that even ahead of whenever something hard happens and be part of a community that will come to your home and be there to bring meals and comfort and all of that. And so, so going through this whole thing, and then of course your children going through it, and, you know, how, how old were you, uh, or actually Dan, when this happened? Probably is a more appropriate question. I was 45. Lisa Appelo [00:12:04 – 00:12:28] No, that’s okay. I was 45 and he was 46. Wow. And honestly didn’t know any other widow my age. Now I’ve come to know, especially through my ministry, widows much, much younger than me. Um, I met one a few weeks ago at our gathering who had never had— they were not even married long enough to have children. And so, would you, would you believe, Doris, that the average age of the widow in the United States is 59? Doris Swift [00:12:28 – 00:12:29] Wow. Lisa Appelo [00:12:29 – 00:12:50] That’s unbelievable, because we have this image, especially from the Bible, that it’s, you know, elderly, and they’ve lived a long time. And that’s just not the case. And so, you know, while my book, God of Comfort, is not just for widows, I tend to meet a lot of widows, because that is my— that’s part of my ministry, and I’m connected with them. Doris Swift [00:12:52 – 00:13:14] Yeah, so beautiful. And so when you— after you wrote Life Can Be Good Again, you were very involved in all that ministering to the women and doing these, um, what do you call them? They’re gatherings, uh, widow— that you gather with widows together. What is that called that you do? Lisa Appelo [00:13:15 – 00:13:37] It’s part of Never Alone. So Never Alone is a national organization, and it’s very— it’s really only been around for about 5 or 6 years, but such need for widows because so many churches don’t have the capability or haven’t started some kind of widows ministry. And part of the comfort that comes to us in grief is just knowing that you’re not alone. Doris Swift [00:13:37 – 00:13:38] Yeah. Lisa Appelo [00:13:38 – 00:14:08] And of course, God says that to us all through Scripture, from the beginning of you know, Genesis to Revelation, he says, you’re not alone. I am with you always to the end of the age. I will never leave you or forsake you. His very name of Christ when he comes to earth is Emmanuel, God with us. But it’s also helpful and comforting to have somebody else who gets it, you know, whether you have lost a child or parents, or you’re a widow or widower, to know somebody else who is going through it as well. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:14:09 – 00:14:42] And so, um, because I follow along, you know, when you post different things about the events, and I couldn’t think names. So thank you for sharing that, and we can definitely put anything in the show notes that you would want us to share with the listeners. And getting back to your beautiful book, how did this come about with you starting this devotional? And how did you— like, I know it’s through living through it, but how did this come about? Because there was, you know, a little time between your 2 books. Lisa Appelo [00:14:45 – 00:15:27] You know, culture would tell us that the, that grief is a tidy set of stages. And it’s just the paradigm that is handed out over and over and over through social media, through news organizations, and that there are these set stages that we all experience and we move through them. I think there’s been some wiggle room about whether we move through them sequentially. But there is this idea that there’s a set of stages that we just need to check them off. And most of us are grief naive unless you’ve had some kind of loss. If you’ve lost a person or a parent or a sibling or friend or spouse, child, stillbirth, I mean, you, until you experience grief, you think that that’s actually what happens. Doris Swift [00:15:27 – 00:15:28] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:15:28 – 00:16:07] And as I move through grief, as I’ve met so many and walked so many through grief, I found over and over that it’s just not the case that grief is a messy mix of emotions all at once and hard questions. And we cycle through it over and over. We think that we’ve, we’ve worked through something only to like be pulled back in and, and pulled back down into it again and, and, and, um, have to work through it again. And so I realized that the way through grief is not a method. It’s not a prescription. It is a person. It is the God of all comfort. And for every pain that we experience in grief, which is far more than sadness, God meets us there. Lisa Appelo [00:16:07 – 00:16:40] And so this devotion, the way I designed it was to have, um, to talk about the character of God, that when we are lonely, we can look at God who sustains us, that when we are feel like nobody understands, that we can talk about the God who sees. That when we are missing our person, we feel like untethered, that we can talk about God, our dwelling place, who is our home, even though home doesn’t look the same anymore. And so it just walks the griever through the character of God. And of course, it’s not the full character of God. It’s 50 devotions. Doris Swift [00:16:40 – 00:16:41] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:16:41 – 00:16:47] But it is, it is such a beautiful way to anchor ourselves into God who is with us in grief. Doris Swift [00:16:47 – 00:18:31] Yeah, that’s so beautiful and comforting for someone, especially how you explained all of that and laid that out. Because then, you know, as people are going through different grief stages, like you said, it’s not necessarily descriptive or descriptive for, you know, what everybody the same way. And, and like giving permission to not feel like I should be farther along, or, you know, or how people would even— not even meaning to, but I, but I know that sometimes people will feel like, okay, it’s been, you know, such and such a length of time, shouldn’t you be doing this now? Or don’t you want to get back doing this? Or, you know, those kind of things. So it’s very comforting to be reassured that the God of comfort brings the comfort, and that learning about his different, you know, his character is so amazing and comforting to everybody in all their seasons of life. And it’s important for us to know the character of God because sometimes people might have a different idea of who God really is. And it might stem from trauma from their past and things that have happened to them, or maybe something, you know, that happened with their earthly father, and, and just getting to know God and who he really is. And I love how you have these, um, you know, God of Mercy, God my Lord, God who Reigns, God of Truth, God my Provider, God who Wipes Every Tear. That is so precious. Doris Swift [00:18:31 – 00:18:53] God All-Knowing. Um, all of these different things that I know you also share in the book that it’s not meant to just go from front cover to back cover kind of thing. You can go to where, you know, whatever devotion you need on that particular day, right, Lisa? Lisa Appelo [00:18:54 – 00:19:27] Yes, you can look up, um, if you’re dealing with, for instance, say you’re dealing with a lot of lies, like, man, I just am, you know, my circumstances are telling me I’m never going to feel good again, and the enemy is bombarding me telling me that everything good is behind me, that this is always what it’s going to feel like. There’s other shoes gonna drop, all those lies that we hear in loss. Then go to God, you know, God of truth. There are, so yes, you do not have to do it in order. You can skip around. Um, and it’s interactive. I love that my publisher saw the vision for that. And there are journaling prompts that follow each devotion. Doris Swift [00:19:28 – 00:19:28] Yeah. Lisa Appelo [00:19:28 – 00:19:50] And then journaling space. So you can, you can write the date, you can write your prayer requests, you can write what God is teaching you. Um, Just your questions that you have, you know. And then what a powerful thing to be able to go back to this book and, you know, a year later or later and see the date and see where you were praying and see how God has met you. Doris Swift [00:19:51 – 00:20:18] Yeah, that is beautiful. I did, I did love that so much in the book that you have the, the prayers, kind of like guided prayer, you know, and then you have a question that they can answer in journal or even write their own prayer. Um, and so I’m just You can hear the pages turning. So this was actually published through Bethany House, and your editor was Jennifer Dukes Lee, right? Yes. Lisa Appelo [00:20:18 – 00:21:03] I just— I mean, what a dream team, right? So we share the same agent, literary agent. And then Jennifer, this is the second book that she acquired, and she has such a keen editing eye. She saw things that I didn’t and pointed out things. She’s also walked through grief. And so she had— she had recently walked her father home to heaven, you know, over the— over a long illness. And so she was able to make some, you know, ask some questions or add some tidbits that would— that were really helpful in shaping this book. So it’s not just for widows, and it’s not just for somebody who’s had a sudden loss. There are a lot of ways that we— somebody may have come to loss after years of caretaking for somebody. Lisa Appelo [00:21:04 – 00:21:05] Hmm. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:21:05 – 00:21:26] And And the grieving process is, you know, like, like we were saying, different for everyone. And I know that I’ve heard too where that even begins, like if you are caring— a caregiver for a loved one, it, it can begin, you know, as they’re still living because of what’s kind of coming and all. Lisa Appelo [00:21:27 – 00:21:27] Mm-hmm. Doris Swift [00:21:27 – 00:22:01] And of course, God has the final say, but we never know, and we can just, you know, trust him in what he has And, you know, I know that there’s a lot of different things that people might try to say that doesn’t really— I mean, good intentions, but doesn’t really feel very helpful or seem very helpful at the time. What kind of things that people did say to you were comforting for you? And what are some of the things that you say to other people in this? When you’re ministering to them? Lisa Appelo [00:22:02 – 00:22:35] Yeah, that’s a great question. I wrote a poem about it. So there are a few poems sprinkled throughout the book, and the poem is called I Bit My Tongue at Her Words. And then it talks about how I’ve put my own foot in my mouth, you know, before I knew better. We all mean well, and I know it comes from a place of typically meaning well. And so to extend that grace that we need ourselves, I think the things that we can say that are helpful are, um, number one, we don’t have to say anything. I think that’s the biggest thing is that we don’t have to show it. Like, our words are not gonna fix it. Lisa Appelo [00:22:35 – 00:22:51] And we so want to, to take care of somebody’s pain and alleviate their pain, and that’s well-meaning, but nothing we can say is going to take the sting of loss away. And so sometimes we may just show up and we may just sit with them and listen. Doris Swift [00:22:51 – 00:22:52] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:22:52 – 00:23:18] And our showing up says everything that needs to be said. I think one of the things that we can say that’s super helpful is, how can I pray for you? Um, how are you doing today is too broad. The person who’s walking through loss doesn’t really know how to answer that. They’re so overwhelmed. And so to say, how can I pray for you today? It allows that person to pull up one of their prayer needs and answer authentically kind of how they’re doing. Doris Swift [00:23:18 – 00:23:18] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:23:19 – 00:23:22] And then you get to actually proactively say, I’ve got that covered. Doris Swift [00:23:23 – 00:23:23] Yeah. Lisa Appelo [00:23:23 – 00:23:49] Like, I will pray for your sleep, or I will pray for your child, or I will pray for that appointment you have, or whatever it is that person asks you to pray for. I think to say, um, I’m here to help. I’m here to help. And just, again, you don’t have to actually say that with words. You can actually do that. And that might be, hey, can I, you know, I’ve got dinner for you. Is Tuesday or Thursday a better night? Not like, hey, would you like some dinner? Because yeah, we know we’re, We are bad at receiving. Doris Swift [00:23:50 – 00:23:50] Yes. Lisa Appelo [00:23:50 – 00:24:06] You know, we’re bad receivers. But, but to say, I’ve got this and I’m gonna bring it, which day is easier, just makes, just makes it so simple. Um, and then to say, like we said before, you’re not alone, which is, and it may come with, you know, we’re in the South here, Doris, right? Doris Swift [00:24:06 – 00:24:06] Right. Lisa Appelo [00:24:06 – 00:24:33] So that comes with a big hug and it comes with shared tears as we weep with those who weep. But maybe where you’re from, it comes with a, you know, just, Just saying, like, you’re not alone. I’m with you in this. And I will, I will remember this day. And I want to hear your heart, or texting them, or sending a card or remembering the milestone days. Those are easy ways to walk with somebody in grief. Doris Swift [00:24:34 – 00:25:04] Yeah, that’s beautiful. Beautiful reminders of remembering them on milestone days, and things that are especially hard. And just because it’s been more than a year or more than 2 years, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s always encouraging to the person to receive, to know that somebody is thinking of them and remembering their loved one, really. I had Sherry Fletcher, um, on the show, and she was talking about that too. Lisa Appelo [00:25:04 – 00:25:04] Yes. Doris Swift [00:25:04 – 00:25:38] And how, you know, you don’t wanna not talk about your loved one. You know, you wanna talk about your loved one. And I think it’s awkward for people sometimes, and people try to avoid even a conversation because they’re afraid to say something wrong or whatever. But I love your advice. It’s very practical, and it is good to give people like an option instead of an overwhelming question. And so, Just the ministry of presence too. Like you said, just being there. ‘Cause sometimes we don’t know. Lisa Appelo [00:25:38 – 00:26:01] And you know, here’s the things. Oh yeah. Here’s the thing. We’re, if you say something 10 years in, you’re not reminding them. It’s not like they were having a great day and then you said, hey, I’m remembering that this is a hard day for you. Or I’m remembering, you know, your son today. Or I’m remembering, um, that time that I was with them and I just, I just wanna share that story with you. You’re not reminding them. Lisa Appelo [00:26:01 – 00:26:20] It is. there all the time. And they will so appreciate that their person is not forgotten, that you do remember. It is so meaningful. So it can feel awkward. I get that. But remembering and entering into it is just— it’s such a way to love somebody for the long term in grief. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:26:20 – 00:27:34] And thank you too, for the conversations around it, because it, it will help people to know what to do or what to say or what, you know, maybe what not to say, but more so to feel like if they’re feeling like a prompt to say something, that it’s okay to say something that is, you know, uh, remembering the— your loved one, you know. So that, that is encouraging. I love hearing that because sometimes we could tend to think, oh, they might be having a good day, I don’t want to like ruin it, or, you know, something like that. It’s kind of normal and natural for us to feel that way. But I just, you know, I just remember, you know, when we were talking about different types of grief and things, you know, going through the flood, what— and then it’s like 2 years later, the house flooded again. It wasn’t as bad as the first one. And it’s not to compare like a flood to losing a spouse or a child, you know, but just when we’re talking about different types of grief and loss and things like that. Um, you know, just to see community coming around and, and kind of like a bond of unity. Doris Swift [00:27:35 – 00:28:13] And it’s, it’s a perfect time to, like, when we are going through a lot, where people say, wow, but I don’t understand how you have this peace, and kind of an open door to share the love of, of Christ, you know, with other people. So, um, You’ve had a lot of opportunity to share about Jesus and, you know, in the comfort of God. Was there any particular devotion in the book that was more— I, I hate to say more near and dear to your heart than another, or harder than another to write? Any that come to mind? Lisa Appelo [00:28:15 – 00:29:11] Everybody’s gonna have one that maybe speaks to them particularly, but for me, I loved writing the one that It is on God Who Sees, and it starts, not everybody gets a casserole in grief, something to that effect. Not all grievers get a casserole. Because I know from walking with so many that sometimes, even if somebody knows about your loss, they may not know all the details. They may not understand that it was much more complicated than people see, or that they were more than just a friend. Like, this friend was like a sister, like a— like, family to you. And so it’s more than just friend grief, or they might not understand that this loss created a series of cascading losses. And, um, and so to, to write that devotion that God— and that if nobody in your circle understands, and if you can’t even share because it’s not your story to share, Mm-hmm. God sees and he understands. Lisa Appelo [00:29:11 – 00:30:02] I loved pulling that out of scripture and just Um, applying that in our life. And then I think personally for me, one that was new to me, you know, every time we get in the word, we see things that are, that hit us new. If even if we read it so many times, I had read a scripture that said it’s in Psalm, Psalm, um, 34. Is that right? No, no, no. It’s in Psalm 56, right after the verse that says God bottles all of our tears, you know, that he keeps track of all of our sorrows. The next verse says that God is for us. And on this particular day, I was not writing for the devotionals, my own personal Bible time. I could not move off that scripture because I think for so long, Doris, I think being part of the going to church and, you know, seeing things on my algorithm and the coffee mugs, I thought God is for you was like a platitude that we just put on a t-shirt. Doris Swift [00:30:03 – 00:30:03] Hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:30:03 – 00:30:07] And to see it in scripture, God is for you. Doris Swift [00:30:07 – 00:30:08] Yeah. Lisa Appelo [00:30:08 – 00:30:47] I just could not, I couldn’t shake it that God doesn’t just like see us, that God is not just with us, but God is for us. Just the fact that he would champion us, that he would love us so much that he would enter in and be like, I am with you. Like, I am, I am, I am cheering you and championing you on in this hard place. And this flood door, it’s the second time and you’re weary and thinking, really, really? Did I not learn all the lessons that I could in the first time? Mm-hmm. To be reminded that this is not punishment, that God is for you. That was just a place for me personally that I needed. So I love that devotion. Doris Swift [00:30:48 – 00:31:58] That’s great. And I know that it’s going to encourage someone listening right now that needed to hear that. And, you know, when you write a book, when you’re a Christian author and you’re writing a book and you’re doing it, you know, obviously through a biblical lens, a biblical perspective, and you’re in the Word, it really helps you get into the Word. And then the fruit of it comes out, you know, in what you are blessed to be able to write that can minister to other people. Um, people will see this that might— you know, that I know there will be people that see this book, it’s so lovely and beautiful and it just catches your attention the way it looks and all of that. But God of Comfort, who would not want to pick that up? And I’m just thinking about those who are not yet believers believers who don’t really know God or even wonder if there is a God, and then pick this up and start reading through it and really start to see. Because, you know, the, the word says that when we draw near to God, he draws near to us. And when people are seeking, they will find him, you know. Doris Swift [00:31:58 – 00:32:16] And so I think that’s wonderful, and it’s just going to be so comforting to people who maybe give this as a gift. Maybe that’s something that you, you don’t know what to say, but you can hand them this book. You know, it’s like, let me get this. Lisa Appelo [00:32:16 – 00:32:44] And I’ll tell you, the day Dan died, I said to my friends who were coming to the— coming to my house, I’m gonna— in like a, like a fog, I said, I’m gonna need books. I’m gonna come because I did not know what grief would look like. I did not know how to walk my kids through. I did not know what to expect. And so my friends did that. They got online, they Googled, they looked to see what’s out there. And, um, man, that was a gift. So there’s actually a gift page in this book. Lisa Appelo [00:32:44 – 00:32:51] There’s a to-from page. So if you wanted to give this to somebody, yeah, it would be a nice— yeah, nice way to see them. Doris Swift [00:32:51 – 00:33:12] What a blessing. What a blessing. And it’s not overwhelming. Like, I know that when we have things in our life and the seasons in our life that are hard and we can’t, um, you know, really see one foot in front of us kind of thing. Um, like just losing my mom in January, it was— Lisa Appelo [00:33:12 – 00:33:12] Hmm. Doris Swift [00:33:13 – 00:34:10] It was hard. Like, we— she’d been sick for a while with different things, but she fell twice, you know, between Christmas and New Year and— or right before Christmas. And, and so it was like, you know, you get into the seasons where you feel too overwhelmed even to read or do anything like that. But because this is so, um, one thing comforting— I’m gonna keep saying that word because it’s so true— and it’s God’s comfort that you’re sharing, um, it’s not overwhelming. And it can just be, you know, it’s just like, okay, here’s, here’s God my Father. You know, it’s page 75 and page 76, and then page 77 is a prayer to God my Father and a journaling prompt. And you can do that as you do it, or you can go back and do it later, or whatever. But I love what you had mentioned about, um, putting the date there. Lisa Appelo [00:34:10 – 00:34:11] Mm-hmm. Doris Swift [00:34:11 – 00:34:52] So you can go back and really see, because Because sometimes we forget things that God has done in our life, and you go back and see something you wrote, you know, you wrote way back, and you just see, wow, how God brought me through. And it’s just, you know, it keeps us going and encouraging others about how the faithfulness of God and what he’s done in our stories too. So this has just been so amazing. And if you have any last Maybe words you might want to share with someone listening today before we let them know how they can connect with you and find your books? Lisa Appelo [00:34:54 – 00:35:46] I— yes, I, you know, so often in grief and loss, we get hyperfocused on our circumstance. And part of that is because we have so much grief work to do, hard work to do, right? So that’s, that’s normal. But we can hyperfocus there, and— or we can look back at the life we wanted. Or we can look around at everybody else, and it seems like they’re living their best life while we’re walking through this deep sadness. But the way through grief is to fix our eyes on God of comfort. And so that was really the goal of this book, to have a daily time, or maybe a few times a week, where you can open this book, and it’s rooted in Scripture, and then to fix your eyes on God who is with you in your circumstance. Because He is with you, He loves you with an everlasting love, and He will walk you So beautiful. Doris Swift [00:35:46 – 00:36:55] And it just kind of— when you were talking about that, it reminded me years ago, because I was a banker for many years, and I remember when one of our customers had passed away and his wife came in, and they were young, they were very young. And she just— I just remember her saying, you know, there isn’t any, like, instruction book for this, like, how to do this. You know what to do, and there’s different things that you know you don’t really think of. Like wow, this particular light bill was in my husband’s name. How do I transfer it to mine? You know different things like that. But then you have people that can come around and help you with those kind of things. But it just struck me though about how she said that there’s no like instruction book for dealing with this. But when you just said fix your eyes on you know God, focus on him, and when you work through this and walk through this devotional journal— and it is a journal, which is amazing— and some people might not like journaling or might feel like journaling is overwhelming, but it doesn’t have to be long. Doris Swift [00:36:56 – 00:37:03] And it might be something that you just now in this season find new to you. Lisa Appelo [00:37:04 – 00:37:14] You know, I was not a journaler before at all, um, but I became one because there’s so much in your— in our heart and mind, and it just helped me to kind of unburden everything. Doris Swift [00:37:14 – 00:38:10] Yeah, yeah, so beautiful. And a place to keep that, you know, in this like beautiful book and keep it right next to your word of God and just read that whenever it’s good for you. It’s not always going to be in the morning, it could be any time of the day, but it is precious to start your day with your focus on God, you know, when you first get up. Mornings can be hard, but, you know, then you’ve got your, your devotional that people can grab. And yeah, and I love giving it as gifts. If you have a grief ministry at your church, like Grief Share or something like that, it would be great for them to have copies as well. So I’m gonna definitely share this with the person who leads our grief share, because I think it’ll be amazing, and I know they’ll like it a lot, love it. So Lisa, this— yeah, thanks again for all of the things that you shared. Doris Swift [00:38:10 – 00:38:21] It’s been very encouraging and a blessing, and I would love if you would share how the listener can connect with you, how they can find your books, and any other resources that you have to offer too. Lisa Appelo [00:38:22 – 00:38:42] First, so they can find me, they can find all the information about the book at God of www.godofcomfortbook.com. Um, and then I’m at Lisa Apolo. It’s 2 Ps, 1 L. I’m there on Instagram and Facebook and my website. Um, and I do have a free resource. They’ll find it on my website if they go to lisaapolo.com. Doris Swift [00:38:44 – 00:38:44] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:38:44 – 00:38:48] It’s called 7 Days of Hope for Your Shattered Heart. Doris Swift [00:38:48 – 00:38:48] Mm-hmm. Lisa Appelo [00:38:49 – 00:39:04] And it’s been my most popular resource. So I don’t know, thousands of downloads at this point. And it’s— we know that grief is not solved in 7 days. But it’s a great way to, to begin. It gives some really proactive steps that you can do in grief. Doris Swift [00:39:05 – 00:39:20] Thank you for that. And I’ll have that all in the show notes so people can reach out and find you and follow you, you know, on social media, whatever they, you know, whatever one they’re on. And, and so thank you so much again for being back on the show. And I’d love to have you back again. Lisa Appelo [00:39:21 – 00:39:27] Thank you, Doris. Oh, it’s good. I feel like we’re just right down the road, but we’re talking by computer. Doris Swift [00:39:27 – 00:40:06] So yeah, I know. Yeah, well, thank you so much for being on. And yeah, technology is amazing. It’s, it’s great to be able to connect and, you know, just use it for the glory of God, because there’s a lot of ways that technology is not used for the glory of God. So we just, you know, want to do that and get the word out in this beautiful message. and this beautiful book, and your other book as well is just amazing. And so, friends, thank you so much for joining us today on the Fierce Calling Podcast, and I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Are you fearful of AI? How are you currently using it? In this episode of Fierce Calling, Doris welcomes back Misty Phillip for a candid conversation about all things AI, surrendering a meaningful season, recognizing when good work has run its course, and trusting that nothing in your story is wasted. Misty shares how she transitioned from building Spark Media to working alongside her husband in cybersecurity and AI, and why it’s so important for Christians to have a seat at the AI table. We’re also talking about her new book The Trojan Horse of the Digital Age: Why Christians Must Discern AI From deepfakes and phishing attacks to children outsourcing their thinking, the discussion offers a clear call to discernment, grounded in Scripture, prayer, community, and the Holy Spirit. Listen in and learn how Christians can navigate AI with discernment and without fear. Doris and Misty also explore the hopeful side of technology, including AI-assisted Bible translation and Misty’s 90-day devotional app, Trojan Horse Companion. This episode is a timely conversation about preparing without panicking, using technology wisely, and staying rooted in God as the digital age accelerates all around us. What Misty shares will encourage, inspire, and challenge you, so listen in! 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways 06:30 Reflecting on life’s changing seasons 09:14 Letting go of past seasons 13:42 Christian perspective on AI ethics 15:56 Sharing personal info with AI 20:17 Phishing and account security risks 24:03 Collaborating with Peter on projects 26:27 The rise of AI and its impact 28:08 AI’s potential in various fields 32:54 Future of autonomous vehicles 36:32 Discussing Purpose and AI Caution 40:41 Discussing AI and digital tools 41:28 Developing an AI-based Bible app 46:03 Closing and audience thanks 🤝 Connect with Misty! You can connect with Misty at mistyphillip.com where you’ll find all her social media links, books, and how to sign up for her email newsletter! Misty Phillip is a best-selling author, cybersecurity and AI executive, podcast host, and faith leader who helps people and organizations navigate the intersection of technology, faith, and leadership with wisdom and discernment. Misty bridges worlds most people see as separate. As COO of Trilogyworks, a boutique advisory firm specializing in cybersecurity and AI, she advises enterprise clients on responsible AI implementation and cybersecurity. Together with her husband Peter, they have served more than 200 clients across Finance, Oil & Gas, Chemical, Healthcare, and Retail sectors. Before entering technology leadership, Misty left a promising Enron consulting career to homeschool her three sons for more than twenty years, building a life centered on faith, family, and intentional purpose. She later founded Spark Media, a platform that empowered thousands of Christian podcasters through conferences, publications, and community. She is the author of the Golden Scroll Award-winning Bible study The Struggle is Real, But So is God, and Spark Your Influence, Inspiring Women to Lead with Boldness, Purpose, and Passion a leadership guide for Christian women. Her co-authored title Upskill or Die: Thriving in the AI Revolution reached the top Amazon charts alongside her newest and most timely work, The Trojan Horse of the Digital Age: Why Christians Must Discern AI, released March 17, 2026. Misty has hosted several podcasts, speaks at conferences nationwide, and has been recognized as a top voice at the intersection of faith, media, and emerging technology. She is available for keynote engagements, conference panels, podcast interviews, and media appearances. 🙏 Remember, Friend, That Your Story Matters! As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Show Disclaimer The views and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy, position, or views of this podcast, its hosts, or its sponsors. The views expressed in this episode or any other episodes of this podcast are for informational purposes only. This content does not replace professional medical advice, mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Transcript Doris Swift [00:00:00]:What if your hardest seasons, your deepest passions, and all the things you’ve walked through and are currently walking through were meant to become the very calling God has placed on your life? Welcome to the Fierce Calling Podcast. I’m your host, Dara Swift, and I invite guests who are taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and share their stories Of faith, hard seasons, resilience, and their calling. So together we’ll discover how God uses every part of our stories, and how when we say yes to Him and use our gifts to impact the world, that God can do extraordinary things in the midst of our ordinary days. And sometimes hearing someone else’s yes to God is just what we need To find the courage to say yes to Him too. So my hope is that the stories you hear will encourage, inspire, and challenge you to step out and discover your own fierce calling, because your story may be the very place where God is preparing you to jump into the work He prepared in advance for you to do and to follow Jesus in deeper and more profound ways. So yes, this is Fierce Calling. And if you’re ready to discover where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and step out in faith to make a difference, you’re in the right place, friend. So listen in while I have a chat with today’s guest who has a message to share with you. Doris Swift [00:01:36]:What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and His plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to Him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Darris Swift, author of the award-winning 6-week Bible study, Surrender Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever-present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Doris Swift [00:02:27]:Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. If you’re looking for a Bible study, check it out, friends. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. Today I am very happy to invite back my friend Misty Philip. Doris Swift [00:03:00]:You will have seen her maybe on our previous episode. I’m going to read a little bit about her to introduce her to you. Misty Philip is the award-winning author of The Struggle Is Real, But So Is God. It’s an amazing Bible study. Spark Your Influence: Inspiring Women to Lead with Boldness, Purpose, and Passion. And she co-authored Upskill or Die: Thriving in the AI Revolution. And that was with her husband, Peter. We’re going to hear more about that. Doris Swift [00:03:30]:And she is the COO of Trilogy Works, an advisory services firm specializing in cybersecurity and AI. She’s a speaker, a podcast host, and advocate for faith-driven leadership. She equips believers to navigate the digital age with wisdom and conviction. Welcome back to the show, Misty. It’s so great to have you back on. Misty Philip [00:03:51]:Thank you so much, Doris. Excited to be here. Doris Swift [00:03:54]:Yeah, it’s been fantastic. You’ve been on quite a journey lately. And so we are going to talk about your books, one of which is right here, The Trojan Horse of the Digital Age: Why Christians Must Discern AI. It’s a very powerful book and it’s excellent. read through it. I have questions from it that I’ve written as I’ve gone along through the book. But this is an important subject. It’s right here in our face, but it’s not new. Doris Swift [00:04:23]:It’s been around for years, but it’s just now kind of exploding on the scene. And we need to have some wisdom and discernment in this area. So thank you for being on the show again. And will you please share some of your story and of course with your fierce calling, how you’re taking action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect? Misty Philip [00:04:46]:Absolutely. So, Doris, we met through Spark Media, and that was my passion. It was, you know, God gave me this calling to help Christians podcast. Yes, through Spark Media. And I built, you know, it started as a conference that turned into a community that then we had a magazine and a radio collaboration. And we had, um, just, it just kept growing the network. Then I was, you know, trying to get ad deals for the network, but I I was pretty much doing it mostly on my own. In the beginning, Peter was helping me. Misty Philip [00:05:22]:Peter’s my husband. And I just kept taking things on and I really got to a point— the conferences were a huge undertaking and took most of my year. And so I was really stretched really thin. I wasn’t doing a lot of self-care in the process. I was really beginning to burn out. And I was also traveling with my husband who had started his own firm for cybersecurity. And then really when AI came on the scene, it became cybersecurity and AI. So we were on a plane headed out to California for an event for him. Misty Philip [00:06:03]:And we’re just talking and dreaming about the future and what things are going to look like. And I said, in a perfect world, like, what would things look like for you? And he said that you would quit Spark and that you would work with me. And I was like, What? You want me to do what? And I was like, oh, that’s so funny. Doris Swift [00:06:19]:Hahaha. Misty Philip [00:06:21]:And because I’m not technical at all, like zero tech, zero technology. And, you know, he’s a tech expert. Doris Swift [00:06:30]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:06:30]:And so I was like, what am I going to do to help you in the company? And, and so, you know, I wrestled with it. I took it to the Lord in prayer and I said, is my assignment with Spark over? Is this just a distraction? Is this what you want me to do? How do I unwind this thing that I built? And so, you know, I spent the next several months kind of pulling back. And as I pulled back, things, people kind of started dropping off. And I was like, okay, God, like, I feel like this season of this is over. And so I think that’s really important for the people listening to understand. We have different assignments and different seasons of our life. So, you know, I was a corporate woman, then I came home and homeschooled my kids, then God called me to write and speak, then he called me to do Spark. Now, you know, he’s positioned me to work alongside my husband for such a time as this, and nothing in my background has been wasted. Misty Philip [00:07:33]:I really feel like everything was preparation for this moment. And if we really press into the Lord, I think we’ll all see that It’s the same with us. Even the difficult things that we go through, all of that is shaping our character and drawing us closer to him. But everything builds on everything else, right? Doris Swift [00:07:54]:Exactly. Absolutely. And yeah, and our, and our history, like you were saying, goes way back. And even though you have moved on from Spark Media, you still have this legacy going of the podcasters that you’ve encouraged. Because I remember when I first started the podcast, it was way back. It’ll be 7 years and November, and it was November 2019 when I started, and I didn’t know what I was doing. I still probably don’t know what I’m doing, but anyway, I’m trying to wing it. But no, I’m not. Doris Swift [00:08:23]:Gained a lot of wisdom through training and all of that. We have to study and show thyself approved, or how, you know, that scripture that says that. Anyway, so your inaugural podcast conference was that February, like just a few months later of 2020, right before the world shut down. Misty Philip [00:08:41]:Yeah. Doris Swift [00:08:42]:And it was just so powerful, and it was just God’s Like a testament to God that he pulled all that together because you did that in like, what, 4 months or something? Like, it was quick. Misty Philip [00:08:53]:Yeah, yeah. Crazy, huh? And had I, had I taken longer, like, we would have been in the pandemic. I mean, God’s timing was so perfect for all of that. And, and, and that’s why we really have to listen to him and, and seek him and understand the direction. And when he calls us to do something, like, we need to obey, right? Because timing is so— it’s so important. Doris Swift [00:09:14]:Yeah, definitely important. And it was perfect timing for me, in God’s timing, because I said, I gotta go to this, because I, you know, I was a Christian. And so I, you know, it was perfect. But then, you know, he moves you along to new and different things and new adventures. And like you said, he equips us as we go, so nothing is wasted. So I’m so glad that you said that, but also so glad that you brought out the point that there are times when even good things have run out of their season time. Like, you know, if I could like phrase it that way. But it’s important because sometimes we are the one hanging on to something that really isn’t supposed to be still in our hands. Doris Swift [00:09:57]:We’re supposed to release it and, you know, move, move along to what God’s doing. So I love that you brought that up because someone listening today, you know, real— it’s going to encourage them because they’ve been wondering, is this a time that my season seems to be changing, and we can look at it with great anticipation. And sometimes it’s hard to leave places that we’ve been a long time, but it maybe sometimes it’s because it’s just become really comfortable and we, uh, you know, have to step out in faith, and sometimes that’s a little uncomfortable. Misty Philip [00:10:27]:But anyway, yeah, no, I actually was talking to somebody about this this week, and when sometimes, you know, that surrender can be painful, right? Because she was like, what was it like to give up your baby, this thing that you started? And I was like, it was And I really had to wrestle with the Lord. Doris Swift [00:10:43]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:10:43]:But what in our estimation sometimes feels like subtraction, like I’m giving something up, actually in God’s economy is multiplication. Because I released Spark Media that God clearly had me do for a time during, you know, all throughout the pandemic and beyond, helping equip. When church doors were closed, I was helping equip podcasters to spread the message of Jesus all around the world. And the impact, I probably will never even know of that one obedient step. I probably won’t even know that. But had I not listened and taken that next step, you know, I wouldn’t be here with you today. So, God’s got a purpose and a plan in all of it. Doris Swift [00:11:28]:Yeah. Yes. Amen. And that might have been the main purpose for the whole thing, you know, is because he knew that that pandemic was coming and, you know, that we still could get the word of truth out and reach even more people than we would reach if we were just, you know, speaking locally or even flying to a different area or whatever. We still reach the masses, um, through the airwaves. So that’s for the glory of God. Misty Philip [00:11:53]:That’s right. Doris Swift [00:11:53]:Um, so yeah, and in your book you talk about being good stewards of what God has given us and having discernment. So if you could go into, uh, the message of the book and why it’s so important What are some of the positives with AI, but some of the pitfalls with AI? Misty Philip [00:12:12]:Yeah. Wow, that’s a huge question. So let me start with AI as a tool. I think a lot of people are either— I say it this way, they’re either afraid of it or they’re like running with scissors and they don’t have enough knowledge or they hear things on the internet and Just because somebody says something, it doesn’t mean that it’s exactly true. A lot of people try to, to get clickbait and say these outlandish things when they’re really kind of taking things out of context. So I’m really passionate about people being educated about what AI really is and what it’s not, and for them to understand that it is kind of in everything, everywhere. It’s not going away. So as believers, we need to understand that it’s a tool to be used and that we should be using it for the glory of God. Misty Philip [00:13:08]:Because this has not taken God by surprise. He’s not in heaven wringing his hands going, what? AI? But there are some things that I definitely think that are some dangers and pitfalls that we need to be concerned. I was in a meeting before we started this podcast. I was actually listening in on one of my husband’s meetings. And this this guy used this term and I loved it. I was like, I’m going to take that. He said, a fool with a tool is still a fool. And AI is a tool. Misty Philip [00:13:42]:And I always say, in the hands of a good person, you could do great things with it. And in the hands of a bad person, it is a powerful tool that much bad can be done as well. And so we need to understand that, that it is It can be used by nefarious people for nefarious purposes, right? But we don’t have to be afraid of it. The scripture that I— one of the scriptures that I bathe the book in is, God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, and a sound mind. And we need Christians working in the area of AI so that our voice is as like as Rob Kirkpatrick would say to me about podcasting, Misty, our voice needs to be the Christian voice. We need to have a seat at the overall table. And I feel like that is really critical in the development of AI, putting guardrails on AI when it comes to our children to protect from some of these dangers. So I don’t know, I could go in all kinds of directions. Misty Philip [00:14:50]:I don’t know which way you want to go first, if you want to talk positive or you want to talk— Drawbacks. I’ll let you tell me where you want to take it. Doris Swift [00:14:58]:Okay. Yeah, that was a great overview of it, really. And I love that you’re bringing out the fact that we need not fear it, you know, and that quote was amazing. A fool with a tool is still a fool. Yeah, exactly. So it’s how we use it. It’s kind of like how I think about social media. You know, people use it for good or for evil, you know, good or bad. Doris Swift [00:15:22]:And so just what is the intention and the purpose? Misty Philip [00:15:26]:Yes. Doris Swift [00:15:26]:So, um, and, and 2, I feel like AI in some areas, people could actually even not realize it’s becoming an idol and even replacing the word of God or even replacing God himself because we’re talking to this maybe ChatGPT or something, which I, I use for things, um, but seeking answers that way. So maybe kind of, uh, some of the dangers of it we can go into first. That might be a good Yeah. Misty Philip [00:15:56]:So, so first of all, when you were using AI, you need to understand that it— everything that you were saying, you should be able to stand on a stage in a stadium full of people and say the same thing that you are saying to that chatbot, because all of that information is being recorded and stored. So People think that it’s— they almost think of it like they will sometimes they’ll name, you know, their ChatGPT or their agent that they’re using and it can become familiar and they give it very personal information. I met with someone recently that I’m still mentoring that has a podcast business and I mentor her and she said, I just went to the doctor and put all of my test results in ChatGPT. And I was like, you did what? I was like, do not put any personal information that you are not comfortable with sharing with the world, first of all. And so I think a lot of people are using it in ways that they should be going to humans for those interactions, whether it’s seeking companionship, asking, you know, therapy questions, those kinds of things that we need to be going to— and especially with children, you know, they’re already isolated, struggling with mental health because of what happened and how we handled social media. And now this anxious generation is going to these chatbots for companionship instead of going to their parents, going to their friends. You know, they don’t even— you know, they will be in the same room with their friends and they’ll text one another and not even talk talk with one another. And the Bible has a verse in Hebrews, and it talks about the church needs to gather together all the more as we see the day drawing near. Misty Philip [00:18:03]:I think that’s why our, our communication with one another is so important. Being in fellowship, being in the church, being— having this interaction, even though you’re in Florida and I’m in Texas, we’re still having a conversation. I’m not just texting you, you know, which it just removes that whole layer. So I’m grateful for technology and all the ways that we can do so many amazing things. But I also see the danger, especially with children whose brains are not fully developed. I don’t want to see them completely outsourcing their thinking to AI because they can get AI to write their papers and give them all the answers. There’s no reason for them think. So a much better approach is to come up with your idea, then go to the AI to brainstorm a problem. Misty Philip [00:18:58]:I also like to say, let, let AI do computer things and keep people doing human things, right? Doris Swift [00:19:06]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:19:07]:So I would never use it as, you know, as an app or seeking something about my soul or, or something like that. The way I use AI is if I’m speaking, I’ll put my presentation in and I’ll say, create the PowerPoint for me. Then once I have this, the PowerPoint done, then I can go in and tweak it and change it and make it my own. But it’s already branded with colors. It does a much better job than I do because it’s not really a good skill that I have. And that’s not outsourcing my thinking, right? Doris Swift [00:19:42]:Right. Misty Philip [00:19:43]:It would be like me hiring a designer to do it, right? So I think it’s in the way that we use it and the information that we’re putting in it, and then just being aware of some of those things. And then also, because we work in cybersecurity, you know, the bad actors are using AI to amplify their attacks with phishing attacks. I’m sure you’ve probably seen a phishing email where it’s like, Doris, you have a UPS package that you need to pick up. Click on this link to learn more. Doris Swift [00:20:17]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:20:17]:A lot of this happens a lot with Facebook. A lot of people’s accounts get taken over because they think they’re getting a message from Meta and it’s not, and they click the link, then their accounts get taken over and they get frozen out of their accounts. So all of that is phishing attacks. And so with your Facebook account, may not be that big of a deal, but with your bank account, that’s a much bigger deal. And when you’re talking about that on the corporate side, you know, these bad actors can do a lot of damage because they can move at machine speed as opposed to human speed. So where they used to have to pick up the phone and call somebody to try to social engineer them out of their password, now they can move at the rate of the technology. And that’s the other thing that’s crazy about this is the velocity at which AI is moving. If you’re not in You may not understand how fast this is moving, faster than any technology. Misty Philip [00:21:17]:You know, Peter’s been in technology for almost 30 years, emerging technology, and he saw the invention of the internet and when things went to cloud and social media and all these evolutions. AI is unlike any one of those things, and it’s very different in that it may take a lot of jobs away. Especially as we get to AGI. Here’s another concern I have is that the frontier models, so that’s like ChatGPT and Grok and Claude, which is Anthropic, all of these, Gemini, Perplexity, the people that run those companies are not believers. Doris Swift [00:22:01]:Hmm. Misty Philip [00:22:02]:And they have trained their— so the Bible is like, if you’re not for me, you’re against me. So we got to keep that in mind. Also, it’s been trained on data from every book, good, bad, from smart people, from, you know, people that are not so smart. It’s been trained on the internet and sometimes in the recesses of the internet like Reddit. And so it has all of this information and different models have different levels of bias built into them and they can be wrong. So they can hallucinate, give you a wrong output, but they sound very convincing. There’s one model in particular that’s very sycophantic. It will tell you, oh, Doris, that’s a great idea. Misty Philip [00:22:48]:Yes, you should do that more. Yeah, how about this? Have you thought about that? And then you type in something, oh, that’s brilliant. That’s a really great idea. And so you can go down a wrong path of thinking. It’s training the way you think, whether you realize it or not. And we have to understand that it’s not neutral. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:23:10]:Wow, that is really some things to chew on for sure, but good, good stuff. And, and I love the reminder of, you know, don’t put anything in there that you’re not going to want to scream from the rooftops or in a stadium, because, you know, sometimes people do go there for medical advice or whatever, you know. Um, but when you were talking about how all of these different things that we use, tools that we use, are just feeding us information from all kind of walks of life. It’s not filtered in a way that would be like toward our type of worldview. It’s like coming from all the different worldviews. But then when you were talking about how we have to— it’s so fast. Is that where like the Upskill or Die book kind of came about? If you want to touch a little bit about that. Misty Philip [00:24:03]:Yeah. So when I first started working with Peter, I was like, okay, I’ve been working on the Spark Your Influence book for 5 years. I need to just sit, get this book done and get that out. So I did that. And then I kind of eased myself into working with him because I’m like, what am I going to do? Because I kind of hit him first with like, we could do this and this and this and this. And he was like, whoa, I’m only one person because he does all of the delivery on the tech stuff. And so we can only move so fast. because we’re a small organization, right? And so we, you know, every night we would be talking about this happened with AI and this happened and did you see this? And, you know, we’re constantly sending things back and forth because we’re following all the AI news. Misty Philip [00:24:45]:And that was our conversations. And I went on Facebook one day and I just put something out there about AI, like, are you using it? What do you think about it? And one of my friends said, yeah, I used it one time for some recipes and it wasn’t even— it wasn’t that good, so I’m not gonna use it. And another friend was like very, oh, I could tell that they really thought like, you know, it’s probably the mark of the beast. And, um, and I was like, okay, there are real jobs that are going to be lost. I have friends who are sending their kids to college for careers that may not be there. How can we help train people and prepare the workforce for what is coming? Doris Swift [00:25:27]:Right. Misty Philip [00:25:28]:Elon Musk in particular is building thousands of robots, right? So when you see this convergence of AI, robotics, automation, and even quantum computing that will make all of that faster, um, there’s— there’s jobs are going to change. Now, I, I listen to some people who are optimistic about how it’s going to create new jobs in like other time periods. So if you think about like the horse and buggy, you know, that was the main mode of transportation. And, you know, Ford decided not to build a faster horse, but to do something completely different, right? And then that created the whole auto industry and lots of different jobs have stemmed from that. So I think there will be some of that, but it will be the people who are using AI that are staying on top of it and have their subject matter expertise in whatever domain that is. Doris Swift [00:26:27]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:26:27]:couple those 2 things together, it will make you really powerful. For the people who are like, I tried it once and I’m not going to use it, they will be the ones who will be left behind. And because it’s moving so fast, when AI is as smart as all humanity, so that’s kind of what all these companies are racing towards and they’re racing against China, is is to become, to have AGI or SGI, which is superintelligence, general intelligence. Like, they want to be, they want AI to be smarter than every PhD, all, like, all of humanity. So then we have, as Christians, and, and I think even as, as regular people, we’re going to grapple with, you know, what does it mean to be human? And what is my purpose if AI could do everything faster than me? I think that that opens up a whole nother can of worms that I don’t think most people are prepared for because they think, oh, I don’t use AI, or, you know, but you do. You use it whether you know it or not because it’s built in your navigation, it’s built in your, your photo editing apps, it’s built in your Netflix, it’s built in It’s everywhere and it’s only going to be more prolific because one of the cool things that has happened with AI is it has democratized information. So anybody can know anything. Really, you have all of the information at your fingertips. Misty Philip [00:28:08]:But not only that, anybody can use it to build. So you can use AI for stupid things like tell me a joke, which is such a waste, you know, or you could use it to like find a cure for cancer. Like, there’s all different kinds of ways that, that it can be used. But, um, yeah, I think that’s what excites me is, is the, the amazing possibilities and the really smart people who are using it for good. So there’s, there’s whole groups of Christians out there who are already in the tech space that are working for Google and Meta and all of these companies, and they’re like, how can we use tech for good, and that’s what excites me. Um, I was at the Missional AI Conference a couple months ago in Silicon Valley, and all of the Bible translation people were there, and they are all using AI to translate the Bible. And within the next several years, they’ll have the entire Bible translated into all languages. Just think about that. Misty Philip [00:29:18]:Yeah, is that amazing? They’re saying 2033, but the speed at which it’s going, I think it could be even sooner than that. So those people are really excited about, about it because they can see the potential for good. Um, so it’s, it’s not one or the other. It, it’s kind of a both-and situation because we’re in the Wild West with AI. We really don’t know which way it’s going to go. Like, is it going to go Star Trek or is it going to go Terminator? Doris Swift [00:29:49]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:29:50]:And that’s, that’s something that we need to understand, even if we don’t, if we think, oh, I’m not using AI, it doesn’t affect me, it is going to affect everyone. Doris Swift [00:30:02]:Yeah, such a good word right there. And talking about how it’s in everything, and we don’t realize it’s in all the things that we’re already using. So even though we might not be proactive in seeking it out and using it, but even, you know, just asking a question or trying the search engines and all of that. And then everything knows our, like, what our likes are and throws stuff in our algorithms. And, and even like all the crazy videos that are out now, some of them are so funny, but you, you know, even at first you’re not sure if it’s real or not. And then after a while you’re like, right, a cat can’t do that. Like, a cat’s not gonna do that. You know, it’s like you have of somebody sleeping and they’re going, this is what happens at 3 AM or whatever. Doris Swift [00:30:48]:And then all of a sudden this, this like, what do you call it? Mariachi band or whatever. What are those? Misty Philip [00:30:55]:Mariachi band. Doris Swift [00:30:56]:Yeah. The mariachi band comes in and they’re all cats, you know, playing. And it’s like, what in the world? Misty Philip [00:31:01]:Anyway, so, so funny. So that’s fun. Yeah. And that’s funny. Doris Swift [00:31:04]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:31:04]:Right. And that’s like, um, a, a way to use it for entertainment. Doris Swift [00:31:09]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:31:09]:But what we have to realize is that there bad people who will use it for nefarious purposes. So that’s where the danger of deepfakes comes in, where, you know, you and I, our images, our voices are all over the internet because of podcasting. So what’s to say that someone can’t take our image and have us say something completely crazy? You don’t even need to have your face all over the internet. Doris Swift [00:31:37]:Right. Misty Philip [00:31:37]:If you have, have had you’ve answered a phone call that you didn’t know, they’re scraping all the voice data, right? And it’s all about the data. And you’re right, every like that we have— social media has given tech companies way more information about us than we realize, from our likes, our dislikes, who we’re friends with, what affinity groups we’re a part of. And we just We have just freely handed over all of this information that is then being used against us to, to sell us things. Doris Swift [00:32:14]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:32:15]:We’re— and, and, and that’s why they have, they have wired social media in a way for us to be addicted to it. And even the short-form content with like TikTok and Reels and that kind of stuff, that is shortening our attention span and our brain span. And so that’s another like issue, especially for these kids who are growing up with it that are addicted to it. And they can’t read books. They can’t have long-term thoughts. So then just think if they’re turning over their thinking to AI, what is the future of humanity going to look like? Doris Swift [00:32:54]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:32:54]:So we’ve got to put some boundaries around it. We have to put guardrails. Christians need to have a voice in the development of it so that we can press for those things. I think it’s going to be really interesting to see what the next couple of years look like. I’ve been asked on podcasts before, so what does next year look like? And I’m like, y’all have no idea. Like, it’s moving so quickly. I have no idea what it will look like. I mean, we already see Waymos driving cars in major cities, which, by the way, they’re not very good drivers. Misty Philip [00:33:30]:And, you know, people will like program them. I was in Atlanta recently and And then I got home and I read how all these Waymos had like gotten into this cul-de-sac and they all got stuck there and they didn’t, you know, they couldn’t figure out what to do. So the more autonomous agents are functioning and the more that robotics are coming online, because now you can get a robot, you can buy a robot right now for $20,000 that will do all of your housekeeping, right? Doris Swift [00:34:01]:Wow. Misty Philip [00:34:02]:But what’s to make sure that that robot would never turn bad, right? Doris Swift [00:34:07]:Yeah. Misty Philip [00:34:08]:I mean, I just have a lot of questions. I got lots of questions. Doris Swift [00:34:12]:Lots of questions. Kind of like Stepford, you know? It’s like, you know, crazy. Oh, my housekeeper just went— had a short and just went berserk. But yeah. And also taking, like you were saying, taking images because we see also, I forget what But which it was like a country western star and she had to even post on her, her profile on Instagram that she is not endorsing this particular product because they took her image and they’re making her mouth move to it and saying that she’s endorsing it and then people are buying it and it’s not her. Misty Philip [00:34:48]:Yeah, it’s not her. Yeah, that’s crazy. So, so think about this from like, what if it’s a pastor and they take a pastor who’s saying something and we’re going to get to the point or already the internet is being flooded flooded with fake content, or also it’s being flooded with just AI-generated content. Doris Swift [00:35:09]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:35:09]:People are gonna start to question, is this real or is it not real? So they could hear the truth from someone like a pastor and think, did God really say it? Is that really true? Um, I, I, I think that, you know, it can be used in a lot of really negative ways and I think we may not even realize sometimes that the things that we’re, we’re seeing, it’s the technology is improving every single day. So when it, when it first happened, you know, you could tell there was 6 fingers, right? And you’re like, and you just have that weird feeling like that uncanny valley, like that doesn’t feel right. But the, the improvements on AI, it’s, it’s crazy at the, the rate at which it’s improving. Doris Swift [00:35:58]:Yeah, definitely. You can see even in a short amount of time how— because before you could tell how something kind of moved and that it wasn’t really, you know, real. But now it’s kind of hard to tell unless you see something like an animal doing something crazy and like, that can’t be true. But, um, but yeah, I— in your book you go over so many different things. Um, but I like how you bring out the point that we can prepare without panicking because I think sometimes people tend to panic and that’s when things can go awry, when we start Yeah, absolutely. Misty Philip [00:36:32]:And God has us here for such a time as this. Like, he created us to live. We could have been on any other timeline in all of history, and God chose us to live here now. I was just having a conversation with my youngest son, Ian, and I said, Ian, I really want you to press into God and ask him why you’re here, because he has you here for a reason. So we do not need to panic, but we need to be educated. I think even even on the corporate side, Peter has this saying that just because you use a toilet and you know how to flush it, it doesn’t make you a plumber. So there’s a lot of people who are using AI, and I see people who are teaching workshops and they’re doing all of these things and they’re calling themselves AI experts, but they really don’t even— they’re not that educated about it, right? So we’ve got to be really cautious about where we’re learning, where we’re getting the information from. So AI at its core is, it’s like predictive language. Misty Philip [00:37:41]:So it’s been trained on all of these books and the internet and all of these really smart people. I equate it to standing on the shoulders of giants, if you’ve ever heard that term, you know, and it creates these outputs. But at the same time, the people who are running these models, there’s a term like as more people use the model, right? It’s being trained on that. And the models are actually growing and they don’t understand how it’s happening. So it’s almost like it’s taking on a life of its own. Doris Swift [00:38:18]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:38:18]:And, and, but they’re not going to stop it. Because they all are in this race for to be the first and to be the best and to have to own the intelligence. And so that also makes it kind of interesting when you think about that. Doris Swift [00:38:39]:Yeah. Kind of gives a whole new definition to the term science fiction. It’s like, yeah, it’s kind of crazy. so good that we have God, you know, is our firm foundation. You know, Christ is our firm foundation. And so we have the Word of God, and we can test the spirits. We can see, does this line up with God’s Word? Or even see in God’s Word how this is all coming about. It’s nothing new, and it’s not a surprise, like you said. Misty Philip [00:39:15]:Yes. Doris Swift [00:39:16]:You know, because we can see That in the Bible, right? Misty Philip [00:39:20]:I’m so glad that you said that. This is something that I think I say on every single podcast, or to say to every single person that will listen to me, is that the only way that you are going to know what is real and what is not is if you are in the Word of God every day. It is a lifeline for the days that we are walking into. You have got to be walking with the Holy Spirit. You have got to get back to the basic— the basics, like being in the Word of God, memorizing scripture, being in community, being in prayer, worshiping the Lord. We don’t know what the future holds, and it could be pretty crazy in the next couple of years. Doris Swift [00:40:04]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:40:05]:I don’t wanna scare people, but if we have the Lord, the Lord will tell us, go here, go there, do this, this. But we have to be walking with the Spirit, and we have to be rooted and grounded. We can’t just get on Instagram and read, uh, a little, you know, uh, Jesus quote and be like, check, I got my, uh, time in. Like, we need to be in relationship with our Lord. We have got to know our God. This is critical for the hour that we’re in, and especially as this technology develops. Hmm. Doris Swift [00:40:41]:Amen to that. Thank you for that. And so this has been such a powerful conversation and so needed, and I don’t think we’re really talking about it enough. We’re just kind of in the wave of it, you know? It’s like when you go to the beach and it’s like, here comes the wave. You’re gonna either get dunked or you can ride it, you know? Like, what are we gonna do? So your tools— I mean, AI is a tool, but we have still tools, um, like your book, The Trojan Horse of the Digital Age, you know, that people can get ahold of and read And I know that you’ll have more things coming out and great resources. And then if you want to also mention, before you let the listeners know where they can reach out to you and where they can find your books and all, if you want to talk a little bit more about the apps going on too that your son’s doing. Misty Philip [00:41:28]:Yeah. So when I got back from the Missional AI Conference, I had met with the YouVersion people there and I was like, how could I use— so they have this platform that’s not their app, but it’s their Bible platform and they’re allowing people to build other apps on top of it. And I’m like, how could we use that? And I was like, Ian, I want to build an app to go along with the book. So for a lot of people whose attention spans are shortened and they won’t read a book, right, how can I continue to get them in the Word of God? Because that’s really what I want people to do, is so that they have that discernment going forward. And so he created for me, based on the book, we worked together to create 90 days of devotions that have a scripture that also there’s tools in there like an assessment for you to do to help you realize how much AI you’re actually using. There are conversation starters for parents to have with their children about AI so that they can approach the subject in an open-ended way so that they can have conversations. And we’re actually meeting today to work on 2.0 of the app because he did it really quickly to get it out there for me. Doris Swift [00:42:44]:Wow. Misty Philip [00:42:45]:And so, if you’ve used the app and you’ve got some suggestions, please reach out to us. We would love to hear. You can find it on the App Store at Trojan Horse Companion. And that’s, to me, is just really exciting. I mean, you could take your book, Doris, and build your own app based on your Bible study. Doris Swift [00:43:08]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:43:09]:And I think this really opens up just a whole new avenue for people to, you know, Use that because it used to be really expensive to build an app and it used to be, you had to have these certain skills. Now it’s really easy. Pretty much anybody can do it. Now it does take some technology, some things that you got to figure out, kind of like when we started podcasting, there’s some things we had to figure out, right? But it’s opening up the world for everybody to have an app. Actually, Actually, we just got back from California and Peter went to the Worldwide Developers Conference for Apple and we got to take Ian to Apple’s headquarters and meet with marketing team and stuff. What they told Peter is that because everybody can build an app now and it’s so easy, 1,000 apps a day are coming into the App Store that they have to approve. Doris Swift [00:44:05]:Wow. Misty Philip [00:44:06]:a day, 1,000 every hour. Doris Swift [00:44:08]:Every hour? Misty Philip [00:44:09]:Every hour. Every hour. And so they’re getting— they’re really clamping down, um, and, and making it harder, um, because so many people can just use AI to build the app, but there’s, there’s not a whole lot there. Um, and so they’re cracking down on it. But I was like, 1,000 an hour? That’s crazy. But how cool is that if everybody builds a Bible app of their own? So there’s— it’s an exciting time. We should have hope. But we also need to be aware of the dangers. Misty Philip [00:44:44]:And I would just encourage everybody to check out the book. Follow me on social media @MistyPhillip or get on my email list. I try to share tidbits, helpful things, you know, places that we’re going. I also went to the US AI Congress. So I’m getting a seat at the table at the overall AI— Doris Swift [00:45:03]:Mm-hmm. Misty Philip [00:45:04]:table, which is really important for my voice and Christians to have a voice there. And so I would love for you to follow along with my journey as God takes me into the great unknown of AI. Doris Swift [00:45:17]:Yes. Yes. Such good stuff. Thank you. And I’ll have all the links in the show notes so people can reach out to you and find you and all about the books and the app and everything. And yeah, I might try the app thing too myself. It’s funny because, you know, you start things sometimes when people say, hey, you should do this. And then it’s like, and then it kind of sits for a while and it’s like, next thing you know, okay, here you go. Doris Swift [00:45:41]:So it’s God’s timing, right? We were talking about that. So anyway. Misty Philip [00:45:44]:Yeah. Doris Swift [00:45:45]:Well, thank you so much for being back on the show. It’s been such a joy to have you back on and I hope to have you back on again, ’cause I know you’ll have more adventures, you know, where we could talk more. Everything is advancing, so we need to like have this chat every so often. So very good. Well, thank you very much. Misty Philip [00:46:02]:Thank you. Doris Swift [00:46:03]:I will again put everything in the show notes so people can reach out to you. God bless you and your ministry. Say hello to Peter for me. He was always such a, you know, a trooper helping us with all of our tech stuff when we were doing the, you know, Spark Media and Spark Collective and all that. So I appreciate him so much too. And your, you know, your sons are wonderful. So thank you again. And friends, thank you for joining me on the Fierce Calling Podcast, and I hope you join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Doris Swift [00:46:37]:Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I will talk to you soon.

How can parents help their children build a strong foundation in Christ before the noise of culture shapes their worldview? In this episode of Fierce Calling, I welcome back Lee Ann Mancini to discuss biblical parenting, critical thinking, family discipleship, and the importance of relationship from the earliest years. In a previous episode which you can find here, we talked all about her book Raising Kids to Follow Christ, and in this episode we go even deeper, including the Raising Disciples Conference coming up in October 2026. Lee Ann shares practical ways to help children ask thoughtful questions, examine ideas through Scripture, and understand the difference between rights and privileges. She also explains how family mission statements, positive communication, prayer, and consistent boundaries can shape a child’s faith. Her central encouragement is simple: parenting is hard, but parents can take a deep breath, trust the Lord, and pray for wisdom. The conversation also highlights Lee Ann’s work equipping parents and grandparents through her books, resources, and the upcoming Raising Disciples Conference in South Florida. 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways 05:56 Reflecting on parenting and mentoring 08:18 Researching and Writing the Book 12:54 Writing a book on family virtues 13:54 Teaching Kids Critical Thinking 17:38 Listening to Kids’ Thoughts 23:18 Creating family mission and contracts 27:19 Explaining rules to kids 30:12 Teaching kids critical thinking 33:17 Establishing Early Spiritual Foundations 35:36 Parenting and Faith Conference Overview 39:20 Christian parenting guidance and resources 42:29 Trusting God in Difficult Times 44:39 Discussing spiritual gifts and teamwork Becoming a Grandparent and Praying for Children Before Birth The first grandchild, a nine-week-old grandson named Nino, becomes a personal example of intergenerational faith. Prayer began during pregnancy, with emphasis on: Asking God to teach wisdom in the womb. Praying for a heart that wants to know and love God. Asking that God’s Word be written on the child’s heart and mind. Praying for compassion, love, and the fruit of the Spirit. The discussion encourages parents, grandparents, relatives, and mentors to pray for children before birth and throughout their lives. Grandparenting is described as an opportunity to apply lessons learned and steward spiritual influence. The Origin of the Children’s Books and Animated Series The original children’s stories were created because existing books did not adequately show children how to apply biblical principles to real-life situations. Stories were first written and read to the author’s own children. The books later became the 7 See Kids series. The ministry’s mission continued through the animated series after the books were no longer being sold. The Shift Toward Equipping Parents The ministry’s focus moved from producing children’s materials to educating and equipping parents. Concern grew over statistics indicating that: 45% of middle-school children were walking away from their faith. 75% of high-school children were walking away from their faith. More than 250 parenting books, expert resources, and training courses were researched. Additional training included Biblical Parenting University, Kidman, and an EPIC trauma course for children. The research was condensed into Raising Kids to Follow Christ. Proceeds from the book support a nonprofit that provides free: Parenting books. Bibles. Devotionals. Children’s books. Other family resources. The Raising Disciples Conference The first parenting conference in South Florida is scheduled for October 10. The conference is designed to make parents feel supported, loved, and spiritually encouraged. The event includes: Parenting instruction. Emotional and spiritual support. Practical tools. Raffle prizes. Resource-filled goodie bags. The conference website is raisingdisciplesconference.com. The event takes place in Pompano Beach, Florida. The day runs from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Registration is described as $65 for the full day. Lunch options include bringing food or purchasing Chick-fil-A for $10. Concerning Statistics About Christian Families and Biblical Belief Recent statistics discussed include: 70% of 13- to 14-year-olds from Christian families reportedly do not believe Satan is real. 84% reportedly do not believe people are born into sin and need a Savior. 90% reportedly do not believe in absolute moral truth. 56% of Christian pastors reportedly believe reincarnation is real. The statistics are connected to findings from the Barna Group and Christian Arizona University. The book is presented as both an explanation of the problem and a source of practical application. A major emphasis is answering not only what parents should do, but how they can do it. Cultural Noise, Confusion, and Heart Transformation Modern families receive information from television, radio, podcasts, magazines, newspapers, and other media. Excessive information can confuse children and adults and pollute their thinking. The central concern is not only what enters the mind, but what takes root in the heart. Biblical parenting should focus on: Teaching truth. Identifying what is valuable. Developing virtues. Encouraging heart transformation. A forthcoming book project is mentioned on teaching families to become virtuous. 10. The Parent’s Primary Spiritual Responsibility Academic achievement, sports, and other activities are acknowledged as worthwhile but secondary to spiritual formation. Parents and grandparents are encouraged to raise children who: Stand firmly in their faith. Think critically. Become other-centered. Grow into strong disciples. The first 13 years are described as a critical window for establishing a child’s worldview. A strong early foundation allows later spiritual growth to build on something stable. Building Relationships Through Play Relationship-building should begin during infancy and early childhood. Parents are encouraged not to rely primarily on phones or television to occupy children. Playtime should be intentional and relational. The home environment can be evaluated by asking whether it reflects “Disneyland” or “Destinyland.” Biblically themed toys, Legos, puppets, and costumes can support spiritual conversations. Examples of faith-centered play include: Acting out Bible stories. Using puppets and costumes. Reimagining a tea party as communion. Play is presented as a way to cultivate trust and make children comfortable engaging with parents. Teaching Faith Throughout Everyday Life Deuteronomy 6 is used to emphasize teaching children about God: When rising. While walking along the path. At bedtime. Throughout ordinary daily routines. Faith formation is presented as an all-day process rather than a once-a-week activity. A strong relationship makes it easier for teenagers to bring parents their questions, confusion, and concerns. Parents are encouraged to begin teaching critical thinking before adolescence. Encouraging Questions and Critical Thinking Children should be praised for asking questions. Parents can respond to a child’s question by first asking, “What do you think?” This approach helps parents understand the child’s current beliefs and reasoning. When a child gives a biblically sound answer, parents can affirm the child’s thinking. When a child is mistaken, parent and child can search Scripture together. The approach is intended to: Encourage curiosity. Build confidence. Keep communication open. Teach children to investigate claims rather than accept them automatically. Asking questions back should be used thoughtfully rather than mechanically, so children do not feel frustrated. Positive Communication With Children Parents are encouraged to replace negative phrasing with positive, purposeful language. Examples include: Saying, “Hurry up and put your pajamas on so we can have a bedtime story,” rather than threatening to remove the story. Telling a teenager to drive carefully and watch the speed because safety matters and driving privileges should continue. Positive language can communicate both expectations and reasons. Frequent negative words and commands may negatively affect young children’s language development and learning. Parents are encouraged to think before speaking, especially when angry. The distinction between reacting and acting is emphasized. The “Yes-No Sandwich” for Toddlers A “yes-no sandwich” gives children a positive response while setting a necessary boundary. Instead of simply saying no to a request, parents can: Affirm that the desired activity will happen. Explain the condition or timing. Offer a choice within the boundary. The example involves postponing a trip to the park until a younger sibling wakes from a nap. Giving children choices, such as selecting between swings and a teeter-totter, helps them hear the positive elements of the response. The method avoids blaming a younger sibling for a postponed activity. Reverse Negotiation and Privileges “Reverse negotiation” is presented as a discipline technique for repeated arguments over privileges. If a teenager continues challenging a limit, each additional argument results in a further loss of privilege. Possible privileges include: Computer time. Cell-phone access. Car keys. Time with friends. The approach teaches that continued arguing worsens the outcome. Children are distinguished from having unlimited rights to privileges: Basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter are rights. Cars, phones, computers, and social activities are privileges. Privileges can be earned through obedience and responsible behavior. Family Mission Statements and Disciplinary Contracts Families are encouraged to create a written mission statement. A family mission statement can define: Family values. Worship practices. Stewardship. Spiritual priorities. Expectations for raising children. A disciplinary contract can outline: Family rules. Individual responsibilities. Duties. Consequences for disobedience. Privileges connected to obedience. Clear expectations help children understand what is required before discipline occurs. The family is encouraged to plan spiritual formation as intentionally as vacations, education, and careers. Discipline Through Accountability, Safety, and Love Parents are encouraged to explain the reason behind discipline. Three reasons are emphasized: Parents are accountable to God for how they raise children. Boundaries help keep children safe. Discipline is rooted in love. Teenagers often respond poorly to lectures. Conversations, listening, and relational connection are presented as more effective approaches. Strong discipline depends on a strong parent-child relationship. Critical Thinking and Biblical Worldview Children should learn to evaluate ideas rather than automatically accept what friends, culture, media, or authorities say. Critical thinking includes examining: What is right and wrong. What is good and bad. What is biblical and unbiblical. What is evil and what is not evil. Children are encouraged to take thoughts captive and ask whether an idea aligns with Christ and God’s Word. Without this foundation, children may become vulnerable to every new trend, slogan, fad, or ideology. Critical thinking is connected to preparing children to become future leaders. Biblical Parenting Education in Churches The need for biblical parenting classes in churches is emphasized. Parents may struggle to disciple children because they were not themselves raised with a strong biblical foundation. A six-week biblical parenting course is being developed. The course is intended to help parents learn how to: Raise children in the faith. Teach biblical truth. Practice discipline. Use apologetics. Apply Scripture to family life. The conversation identifies four influential areas of society where strong Christian disciples are needed: Government. Academia. Media. The church. Children as “Arrows” in the Family Psalm 127 is used to describe children as arrows in a parent’s quiver. The metaphor emphasizes preparing children to be: Precise. Effective. Strong in faith. Ready to influence society. Children are encouraged to carry biblical conviction into the major institutions of culture. Raising spiritually prepared children is presented as a way to influence the future of the country and the world. Establishing Faith During Key Developmental Stages Spiritual formation is described as beginning in the womb and continuing through adolescence. Developmental stages discussed include: Birth to age 3: preparing rich soil for spiritual growth. Ages 4 to 7: planting biblical seeds and teaching concepts such as the Sabbath. Around age 7: spiritual formation begins to take shape or fails to take shape. By age 13: worldview formation is largely established. Everyday language can introduce biblical ideas to young children. Families are encouraged to articulate their worldview clearly: Belief in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Belief in the truth and authority of Scripture. Belief that biblical living is healthy, productive, and God-honoring. A strong Christian worldview is intended to support lifelong faith. Parenting Conference Speakers and Sessions The conference will feature sessions on: Child discipline. Homeschooling. Parenting without regret. Parents and grandparents working together. Helping prodigals return. Raising disciples in an increasingly evil world. Speakers mentioned include Ginger Hubbard, Sam Sorbo, Rhonda Stoppe, Lori Wildenberg, and Lane Lawson Craft. The conference is designed to combine instruction, encouragement, fellowship, practical tools, and generosity toward families. Upcoming Books and Courses A book on teaching families to develop virtue is being prepared with Chris Bertling. A children’s book titled How Do I Know God Is Real? is being developed with D6 and Randall House Publishing. A six-week parenting course is being developed in connection with Answers in Genesis. Planned course topics include: God’s design for parenting. Deuteronomy 6. Discipline. Apologetics. Teaching parents so they can teach their children. Practical application remains a defining feature of the books and courses. Providing Free Resources to Families Proceeds from ministry materials support the Raising Christian Kids nonprofit. Resources are offered to families who cannot afford books and other materials. The nonprofit provides: Children’s books. Parenting resources. Bibles. Devotionals. Toys. Gifts. Teddy bears. A statistic is cited that 66% of Christian families make less than $30,000 per year. The ministry seeks to remove cost as a barrier to Christian parenting resources. Scripture Bear and Support for Adopted Children Scripture Bear is described as a teddy bear that plays eight Bible verses in a child’s voice. Four hundred bears were donated to the nonprofit. Two hundred bears were given to 4KIDS, an adoption agency connected with Focus on the Family. Additional bears are being donated to children whose families cannot afford to purchase them. Prayer, Trust, and Encouragement for Parents Parents are encouraged to take a deep breath and recognize that parenting is difficult in today’s culture. Prayer is described as the most important parenting tool. Parents are encouraged to ask God for: Wisdom. Guidance. Peace. Open doors. Help in difficult situations. God’s sovereignty is emphasized as a reason for parents to trust Him. Parents are encouraged to surrender their worries rather than carry them alone. The closing spiritual encouragement includes trusting God, having faith, and giving thanks in all circumstances. Connecting With Raising Christian Kids The main website is raisingchristiankids.com. Free resources available through the website include: Apologetics content for children. Six weeks of material on defending the faith. Six weeks of material featuring discipline experts. Podcast episodes with practical information from experts. Most podcast episodes are described as 15 to 20 minutes long and focused on substance rather than filler. The website also provides access to additional resources and ministry connections. 🤝 Connect with Lee Ann! You can connect with Lee Ann at raisingchristiankids.com where you’ll find books, resources, and more information about the upcoming Raising Disciples Conference happening in October 2026 in South Florida! Lee Ann Mancini is passionate about helping children build a lifelong, unshakeable foundation in Jesus. She is the founder and CEO of Raising Christian Kids Inc., a nonprofit dedicated to equipping parents and caregivers with the tools they need to become the best spiritual leaders for their children. Lee Ann is a wife and the mother of two grown children. Her award-winning children’s books and animated series, Sea Kids, are based on the stories she wrote for her young children about cute sea creatures who learn about God’s morals and values through everyday childhood experiences. Lee Ann’s award-winning podcast, Raising Christian Kids, is filled with expert parenting advice and wisdom, as well as interviews with nationally and internationally acclaimed Christian experts on parenting and growing up in today’s world. An adjunct professor at South Florida Bible College, she earned two master’s degrees from Knox Theological Seminary—in Christian, classical, biblical, and theological studies—and a master’s in Christian studies from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Lee Ann has devoted her life to the salvation of children and the preservation of Christianity. 🙏 Remember, Friend, That Your Story Matters! As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Show Disclaimer The views and opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy, position, or views of this podcast, its hosts, or its sponsors. The views expressed in this episode or any other episodes of this podcast are for informational purposes only. This content does not replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Welcome to the Fierce Calling Podcast, where we explore how God uses our stories—especially our hardest seasons and deepest passions—to call us into His purpose. I’m your host, Doris Swift, and today I’m joined by Julie Lefebure: author, speaker, mentor, and host of the Encouragement for Real Life podcast. Julie Lefebure shares her journey of encouraging women to refuse to settle for less than God’s best, and how her most recent book, Made for More: 365 Devotions for the Woman Who Refuses to Settle, grew out of her desire to help women live abundantly and embrace their unique callings. We’ll dig into the power of beginnings, the significance of the everyday, and how to discern and step into your calling, even when it feels insignificant or unclear. Julie Lefebure offers encouragement for anyone feeling stuck, questioning their purpose, or believing the lie that they have nothing to offer. Get ready for an uplifting conversation filled with faith, practical encouragement, and a reminder that God truly cares about every detail of your life. 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways Julie Lefebure’s Story and Her Fierce Calling Journey from secular work to full-time ministry (04:00-05:22) Passion for helping and encouraging women The calling to help women see they are made for more (05:11) The Concept of “Refusing to Settle” Meaning of refusing to settle and its biblical significance (06:12-08:12) Personal story: questioning if “this is all there is” Reference to John 10:10 and abundant life Distinction between abundance in God vs. material abundance Structure and Focus of the Devotional Book Format of the devotional: short daily readings with scripture and reflection prompts (08:33-09:15) Example topic from the book: “Find Beauty in the Beginning” Importance of valuing the process and early steps (09:18-10:26) The Value of Beginnings and Taking Time with God Parallels to scriptural truths about new beginnings (11:10-12:12) Benefits of daily rhythms and meditating on the Word Expansion of Julie Lefebure’s Ministry Launch and impact of her podcast (13:01-14:46) Development of a mentoring program, “Abundant Life Mentoring” Difference between mentoring and coaching Emphasis on personal connection and discipleship (15:56-16:57) Encouragement about Stepping Out in Faith Stories of how each began podcasting (17:07-18:41) Overcoming fear of imperfection and possible failure The Significance of Mentoring and Discipleship Clarification of what mentoring looks like (20:31-21:01) Focus on walking alongside women personally Comparison with coaching and counseling The Genesis of the Devotional Book Inspiration: summer podcast series “Summer of Abundance” (21:38-23:01) Incorporation of podcast material into the book Writing process and the importance of serving women’s needs Importance of Biblical Foundation in Resources for Women The necessity of basing books and mentoring on scriptural truth (24:30-25:06) Avoiding self-help trends disconnected from the Bible Recognizing What God Has Already Given Us Encouragement to notice gifts, experiences, and opportunities already in hand (25:35-26:10) God’s unique plan and personal purpose for each woman Addressing Feelings of Insignificance and Calling Reframing the idea of calling and everyday faithfulness (30:53-32:31) God’s direction in daily life Joy as an indicator of calling and gifting Embracing Unique Paths and Overcoming Comparison Importance of not comparing oneself to others (34:03-36:08) Examples of unique contributions in writing and podcasting Assurance that God uses everyone’s perspective Commitment to Biblical Truth and Discernment Reiterating the Bible as the ultimate source (37:05-37:54) Necessity of testing all teaching and books against scripture Final Encouragement and Practical Next Steps Assurance of God’s care for every detail (37:56-39:21) Visualizing “handing over” burdens to God Steps to walking in abundant life and trusting God How to Connect with Julie Lefebure and Access Resources Website, social media, and book availability (39:22-39:54) Summary of ways to follow and engage Closing Thoughts from Doris Importance of knowing God’s character through scripture (40:25-41:44) Encouragement to seek God personally, especially when struggling with past hurt or doubt Invitation to future episodes and closing the show 🤝 Connect with Julie! You can connect with Julie at julielefebure.com Plus, you’ll find real-life encouragement in a variety of ways on Julie’s website: Her weekly podcast, Encouragement for Real Life, that drops new episodes each Tuesday morning. blog posts speaking  free resources You can also find her on Instagram julielefebure, X @JulieLefebure, Facebook Julie Lefebure, and on Pinterest @julielefebure Julie is a big fan of sunrises and sunsets, appreciates unrushed mornings, and loves eating outdoors. I love all of that, too! How about you? She’s wife to Bill, and on any given day you might find them on their tandem bicycle enjoying adventures together. They have a goal to bike in each of the 50 states! They’ve participated in RAGBRAI six times, and they are empty-nesters looking forward to growing old together. Julie Lefebure is a writer, speaker, and Abundant Life Mentor who encourages women to live with intention and experience the abundant life Jesus promises. She is the author of Made for More, Right Now Matters, and the Right Now Matters Bible Study, and the host of the Encouragement for Real Life Podcast. Through her words and work, Julie helps women slow down, stay present in the moment, and live from truth instead of pressure, comparison, or fear. Find Julie at julielefebure.com. 🙏 Remember, Friend, That Your Story Matters! As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Transcript Doris Swift [00:00:00 – 00:01:29] What if your hardest seasons, your deepest passions, and all the things you’ve walked through and are currently walking through were meant to become the very calling God has placed on your life? Welcome to the Fierce Calling Podcast. I’m your host, Dara Swift, and I invite guests who are taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and share their stories. Of faith, hard seasons, resilience, and their calling. So together we’ll discover how God uses every part of our stories, and how when we say yes to Him and use our gifts to impact the world, that God can do extraordinary things in the midst of our ordinary days. And sometimes hearing someone else’s yes to God is just what we need To find the courage to say yes to Him too. So my hope is that the stories you hear will encourage, inspire, and challenge you to step out and discover your own fierce calling, because your story may be the very place where God is preparing you to jump into the work He prepared in advance for you to do, and to follow Jesus in deeper and more profound ways. So yes, this is Fierce Calling. And if you’re ready to discover where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and step out in faith to make a difference, you’re in the right place, friend. Doris Swift [00:01:29 – 00:02:16] So listen in while I have a chat with today’s guest who has a message to share with you. What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan, and His plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to Him. It might be a prodigal. It might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Darris Swift, author of the award-winning 6-week Bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You. Doris Swift [00:02:16 – 00:02:57] And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever-present Jesus joy within that fills, empowers, and ripens the fruit that God produces in our lives. Using personal and biblical stories, I share how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within, and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. If you’re looking for a Bible study, check it out, friends. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. Doris Swift [00:02:57 – 00:03:23] Today I’m very excited to welcome my friend Julie Lefebure. We have been friends for a long time. She is Amazing. She has these books that have come out, and we’re gonna talk about that. But she’s an author of Right Now Matters, and her new book is Made for More: 365 Devotions for the Woman Who Refuses to Settle. Okay, let’s be that woman. Okay. Julie Lefebure [00:03:23 – 00:03:24] Yes, ma’am. Doris Swift [00:03:24 – 00:03:36] She is a speaker, a mentor, and she’s host of the Encouragement for Real Life podcast. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that too. And I’m excited to jump into the conversation. Welcome to the show, Julie. It’s great to have you. Julie Lefebure [00:03:36 – 00:03:39] Thank you. It is so great to be here. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me. Doris Swift [00:03:40 – 00:03:57] Well, I’ve been thinking about you for a long time and I was like, I gotta reach out to Julie and get her on the show. And so I would love if you would share a little bit about your story and how you are taking action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect, which is your fierce calling. Julie Lefebure [00:03:59 – 00:04:34] Okay. Well, gosh, I am a born and raised in Iowa girl. I have never left the state. I mean, I have for vacation and things like that. But, um, but yeah, we are rooted here in Iowa and, uh, been married to my husband, it’ll be 34 years this year. We have 2 kids, 2 bonus kids, our, our in-laws, which I absolutely, I could consider my own, and 3 wonderful grandchildren. And, uh, I’m in a season now where I have, um, just let go of my part-time job. And so I’m really kind of in ministry. Julie Lefebure [00:04:35 – 00:05:22] guess I call it ministry full-time and doing all the things that you had mentioned and, um, taking care of my grandchildren as well. And so that’s been a whole new adventure for us. And, um, my, you know, I just love helping women. I have had this calling on my life, and I didn’t really know it was a calling. You know, that’s kind of a word that we use, but I just had this nudge to just I love helping women, to encourage them, to inspire them, to, to just help them see that they were created more for more than what we are living out in our everyday lives. And so that’s kind of my— that’s who I am. I just— and I love how God continues to put women in front of me who I can help do that. So that’s kind of my fierce calling, I would say. Julie Lefebure [00:05:22 – 00:05:24] So yeah, that’s, that’s it. Doris Swift [00:05:25 – 00:06:00] Yeah, definitely. And, you know, when I see the things that you post and it just is very authentic. It’s like authentic Julie, you know. Your heart is to encourage women in their walk with Christ and for what their calling is, you know, and encourage them in that. So, and I love the book’s subtitle is 365 Devotions for the Woman Who Refuses to Settle. And I would just— if you could unpack that. I know that’s like a little buzzword, but if you could unpack that a little bit for us. Julie Lefebure [00:06:00 – 00:06:00] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:06:01 – 00:06:11] Because I love that you are trying to get the attention of women who aren’t wanting to settle for like, this is, this is kind of it, you know? Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:06:12 – 00:06:44] Yeah. And I think we all hit that moment at one point in our lives where we’re thinking, is this all there is? You know, there’s got to be more to life than this. And I remember that day and I write it. I wrote about it in the introduction of the book of— I remember exactly where I was. I was in my 20s and I was going through this on this road. And, and I just thought, there’s got to be more to life than this, that this is— this can’t be it. And, um, God just has taken me on a journey since then. He just kind of woke me up that there is more to life than this. Julie Lefebure [00:06:45 – 00:06:56] And I was in a place of settling, and that was a long time ago, you know, in my 20s. And I’m older than that now, but it’s been a journey of just understanding that God created us. Doris Swift [00:06:56 – 00:06:56] Mm-hmm. Julie Lefebure [00:06:57 – 00:08:12] You know, in John 10:10, Jesus says that He came to give us life and life with abundance, depending on the translation that you read. You know, the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I have come to give life and life with abundance. And this verse has just kind of become my passion because there are times I don’t live in abundance, and God created us to live this abundant life in Him. And so I became a woman that refused to settle, not for settling— excuse me— for the things of this world, because, you know, we’re always going to be tempted to strive and to get more and, you know, buy more and have the nicer house and whatever. Um, but God wants us to, to live this abundant life in the eternal world, you know, the things that aren’t of this world. And, and I I don’t wanna be the woman that settles for anything less than God’s best. And so that’s the tagline, is that we don’t wanna settle for anything less than God’s best. That has nothing to do with really anything of this world, but it’s all to do with God and partnering with him and what his best is for each of us. Julie Lefebure [00:08:12 – 00:08:14] Yeah. So does that, does that, does that help at all? Doris Swift [00:08:15 – 00:08:33] Yes, it really does. It does. And I love how you talk about God’s best, and that’s what we wanna, you know, not just settle for less than that. And, um, yeah, yeah. And, in the book is, is beautiful because it is not, um, like cumbersome or overwhelming. Julie Lefebure [00:08:33 – 00:08:33] No. Doris Swift [00:08:33 – 00:08:45] It’s like each day you read it and then, you know, you have the scripture that goes with it, and then you have the Speak Life, Talk to God, Reflect and Respond, you know, each day. Julie Lefebure [00:08:45 – 00:08:45] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:08:45 – 00:09:15] And, you know, it’s something that women can just do in the morning or whenever they find it You know, to do, have the time to do that. But like, for example, on day 24, you talk about find beauty in the beginning. And I really love that because sometimes we feel like things are insignificant or that what we’re doing doesn’t matter. So what are some of your thoughts on that? Julie Lefebure [00:09:18 – 00:10:26] Well, the, the beauty in the beginning thing, that, that kind of came from that, that piece of, you know, sometimes we do— we don’t appreciate the beginning of something when we just want to get to the end. We want to get to the final piece and achieve the thing or finish the project or whatever it is. But sometimes it’s in the beginning that God really speaks to us, that he directs our, you know, our steps in the beginning. And we may not know how it’s all going to look at the end, but Those beginning steps are sometimes the most important that we should— it helps me to remember to cherish every part of the journey, not just the ending piece. And so that’s, that’s kind of— that was my thought with that one. And each day, you know, each day has a different focus. But that focus was, was really part of my journey of I’m the person that likes to be productive and keeps working towards the thing where sometimes the most important part is just the very beginning when we can trust God and say, okay, I’m yours. Show me the next step, you know, give me the, give me the ideas, the vision, whatever it might be. Julie Lefebure [00:10:26 – 00:10:33] And so that’s, that’s one of those that’s just really personal to me. So I’m really glad that you, you brought that one out. Doris Swift [00:10:33 – 00:11:22] Yeah, I just, it’s just that one struck me. And of course there’s tons of other ones because it’s 365. Um, but I just, you know, I love that too because, uh, it’s just a reminder. It kind of reminds me where the Bible tells us, you know, I’m doing a new thing, do you not perceive it? And, and then of course there’s nothing new under the sun, but still, you know, Right. there could be something just small that starts. And how the Word tells us that, you know, he who began a good work in you, you know, will be faithful to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. So I think that sometimes we might want to rush the process of what it’s supposed to look like and kind of like, yeah, jump to the end game. So I’m glad that you— Julie Lefebure [00:11:22 – 00:11:22] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:11:23 – 00:11:48] Brought that out. You know, it’s not about just— and it’s good to have like a daily kind of rhythm, you know, where we spend time with the Lord and we, um, meditate on his word and all of that and just kind of Take it one day at a time because we always wanna know like, well, what’s this gonna come out to be? Or how’s this gonna all play out? And we know better than to like, yeah, second guess God about that. Julie Lefebure [00:11:49 – 00:12:12] Yeah. Yeah. And that, that’s great for the mornings too. You know, mm-hmm, that, that, that scripture of Isaiah 43:19, I think is what it is, that says, you know, do you not perceive I’m doing it? I’m doing a new thing. Every morning is a new thing. Yeah. You know, God’s mercies are new every day. And so the beginning of a new day can just be like a whole refreshing Okay, God, what do you and I get to do today? You know, type of thing. Julie Lefebure [00:12:13 – 00:12:20] It’s just the beginning part that really I think we miss. And so, yeah, it’s not all about the end. It’s, it’s a beautiful part in the beginning. Doris Swift [00:12:21 – 00:12:33] Yeah, definitely. And, and how you, um, kind of bring that out in your devotions that you do, but also how it comes out in your encouragement for real life, right? Julie Lefebure [00:12:35 – 00:12:36] Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Doris Swift [00:12:36 – 00:13:00] That’s right. And then, um, just the mentoring that you do, uh, with women and all of that. So if you want to go into a little bit about those different areas of your ministry and kind of share how that all ties in together with your calling, your vision, your, you know, what God has called you to do in the lives of women. Julie Lefebure [00:13:01 – 00:13:40] Yeah, you know, I never set out to, quote, have a platform or to be a podcaster or an author. I always had a desire to write a book, but I never, I never knew that I would. And I, it just was one thing at a time. God just took me one thing at a time. I came home from a writing conference in ’21, 2020, summer of 2021. And so that was 5 years ago, and God pressed upon my heart to start a podcast. And so I began this podcast, and it happened. That’s the thing with me and God— when he tells me to do something, I, I want to do it because I want to be obedient. Julie Lefebure [00:13:40 – 00:13:50] That’s the, you know, that’s the, the people pleaser in me. I think I want to please God. I want to do, you know, what he wants me to do. The thing is, it just seems to come together very fast. Doris Swift [00:13:50 – 00:13:51] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:13:51 – 00:14:50] And so I put that that podcast together very quickly, all of God’s doing. And we— I launched it in August of ’21, so it’ll be 5 years this, this August. And I just— a number of people before that had come to me, maybe 3, a local person, someone online, and one of my family members said, you know, maybe you should think about doing a podcast, or have you ever thought doing, doing a podcast? And I like, no, but I had the gumption when I came home from that conference. And so I began it and I found that that was another extension of my passion of just helping women, where I can speak life into their, their lives every, you know, every, in every episode. And I can take what God has taught me and share that with them in a way that’s tangible that they can apply to their lives. And, and, um, you know, it’s all biblically based and it’s, um, the podcast is just— I love doing it. I absolutely love it. It’s just part of It just brings me joy. Julie Lefebure [00:14:50 – 00:15:55] And so, um, it comes out every Tuesday, and, uh, it’s a weekly episode podcast. So that’s been fun. And there’s new things I think I might try in the fall, that maybe I might do some more live streams. I’ve only done one live stream, but that was fun. And I, I just, I, I just love to see what God’s next step with that is. And, um, I began, uh, of a desire again to help women. And, and a number of women had just reached out and said, you know, can, can I meet with you? Can we meet for lunch? Can— who live local. Some online said, can we— can I just email you some questions? And they were just everyday questions about life and how do we, in their specific circumstances, of how do they just carry on? Or, or maybe had a specific question about, you know, what is your faith life look like in a trying circumstance? Or— and so I had this thought that, you know, I’m just going to start a mentoring program where I can just come alongside of women and be kind of be there. Julie Lefebure [00:15:56 – 00:16:57] I’m not a coach because I don’t, I don’t want to be a coach, but I want to— I wanted to have someone to mentor me when I was going through difficult seasons, or when I was questioning my faith, or when I was just stuck in my faith. And I felt like, is God even listening? And so that kind of all just came to be this mentoring. It’s called Abundant Life Mentoring. And actually, I’ve been— I began it last year, and it has been such a gift to be able to come alongside women and just help them find clarity and confidence and courage in their everyday lives. And it’s, it’s just been a very— I want to— what I want to say, encouraging piece, but yet it’s also been, I think, very life-giving for, for both parties, for me and the women I get to work with. And so that’s been, that’s been a joy too. I’m just, whatever God wants me to do, I just want to step and do it. And I don’t do it perfectly, as you know, we, none of us do. Doris Swift [00:16:57 – 00:16:58] Right. Julie Lefebure [00:16:58 – 00:17:07] But it’s, it’s, it’s a joy to be able just to be in the, in God’s will, whatever that looked like, might look like for each one of us. And that’s where he has me right now. Doris Swift [00:17:07 – 00:17:34] Yeah, I love a few things that you said. Well, I love all that you said, but, um, they kind of struck me in the beginning when you, you know, that people were telling you, you know, like, you should start a podcast, you know. And I really feel like I kind of had a similar experience when I started mine. And really, it started years before I started mine, you know, when really a lot of people weren’t like even aware of what podcasts were or whatever. Julie Lefebure [00:17:34 – 00:17:34] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:17:34 – 00:18:09] So it can start from very early on even, and just like a little flicker of something that’s coming, you know, that God kind of prepares us for and starts equipping us in different ways. But I was kind of like you where when I started mine, uh, I just felt like I was supposed to do it and that it was time. And, um, you know, after even talking to different people that had said you should do a podcast, I’m like, well, what would I do a podcast on, you know? And they were like, well, just read your blog posts. At the time I was a blogger. Julie Lefebure [00:18:10 – 00:18:10] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:18:11 – 00:18:33] So yeah, so I started it and I really, you know, I was kind of where you were too. Like, I really didn’t know a lot of what I was doing, so I would look up a lot of information. And then right after that is— I kind of shared this story before at different times— that’s when the Spark Media, the Spark Christian Podcast Conference, the inaugural one came out. Julie Lefebure [00:18:33 – 00:18:34] Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:18:35 – 00:18:41] And, and that was in February of, uh, 2020, right before the whole world kind of shut down with the— Julie Lefebure [00:18:42 – 00:18:43] That’s right. I remember that. Doris Swift [00:18:43 – 00:19:12] That world. But anyway, you know, with the pandemic stuff, but it was perfect timing because you could still reach people all over the world. Even when we maybe couldn’t go places that we were used to going, we could reach a lot more people and you know, with truth and encouragement. And so I think that oftentimes God will have us, as, you know, as we have heard the saying, that he equips the called. So he calls you and then he equips you. Julie Lefebure [00:19:13 – 00:19:13] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:19:13 – 00:19:41] So I think that was good. I was like, I need to go to that conference ’cause then I’ll learn, you know, more about what I’m doing. But anyway, so we have kind of a similar beginning with that. And I think it’s just when we feel like the Lord is prompting us to do something, You know, even if we don’t do it perfectly, because I mean, nobody does it perfectly. So I love that you talked about that. It’s like, you know, not to be afraid to step out. And if we make mistakes, we learn from those. And nothing’s a failure. Doris Swift [00:19:42 – 00:19:50] The only failure— I don’t know, it’s probably a phrase and a quote, and I don’t know who to attribute it to— but the only failure is when you don’t try, or, you know. Julie Lefebure [00:19:51 – 00:20:06] Right, right. You don’t try. So, and I, I went in with I went in with the thought that, okay, what’s the worst that can happen? You know, if I do, if it falls flat, what’s— I tried, and then I would know, okay, well, that wasn’t— yeah, maybe I misheard, or maybe, you know, what’s the worst thing that could happen? So— Doris Swift [00:20:06 – 00:20:31] Exactly. Yeah, what’s the worst case scenario? Um, but yeah, yeah. So, and then for your mentoring, that is really great too. And I like how you distinguished yourself between like that and a coach because it’s a different process. It’s a different approach. And, um, yeah. And it might be similar to like, like counseling or something, you know, where you’re encouraging, you know, with— Julie Lefebure [00:20:31 – 00:20:32] I’m not a licensed counselor. Doris Swift [00:20:32 – 00:20:33] Mm-hmm. Julie Lefebure [00:20:33 – 00:21:01] It’s more, uh, more personal. I think mentoring is more personal than coaching. Mm-hmm. You know, a coach just, I, I feel like a coach would just, and not all coaches, but right. I, I figure like, think about my basketball coach when I was in high school, you know, stood from the sidelines, cheered me on, blew the whistle at practice and, you know, but I wanna come be the one to come alongside. hook arms with someone and say, I’m going to walk with you through this, you know. Um, it’s a little more personal. Yeah, it’s been very— yeah, it’s been a very good thing. Doris Swift [00:21:01 – 00:21:22] Yeah, I love that it’s personal. And because each woman that you mentor is going through something different, or maybe just want some direction of like, you know, I feel like God’s wanting me to start this and I’m not sure where to begin, and just kind of helping come along. It’s really also a form of discipleship. You know, when you do that. Julie Lefebure [00:21:22 – 00:21:23] Yeah, right. Doris Swift [00:21:23 – 00:21:36] So I love that so much. And so, um, talking more about the book, um, what actually began that? Like, how did you start thinking this should be a devotional? Julie Lefebure [00:21:38 – 00:21:52] Okay. Yeah. Uh, this actually began last summer, actually. I, uh, the beginning of June. I love summer. It’s my favorite season. And so last summer I did a series on my podcast called Summer of Abundance. Doris Swift [00:21:52 – 00:21:53] Mm-hmm. Julie Lefebure [00:21:53 – 00:22:31] And it was a 12-week series. I’d never done that long of a series, but I picked out 12 things in God’s— or areas where I saw in God’s, God’s word that he would love to grow us. Like, um, one is gratitude. One was, um, kind of the, the staying in the moment, being present type of thing. There was 12 of them. And after, after I was kind of starting to wrap that series up at the end of summer, I had an inkling. I thought, I wonder if I could make these series, use these 12 core principles into a book. And I went away. Julie Lefebure [00:22:31 – 00:23:01] I’m with— I’m— I have— there’s 5 of us that meet on Monday mornings in a prayer group and online. And we went away all together for the first time. All of us were together except one in St. Louis. And that was in July. And so We had talked about our dreams and goals and things like that. And on the way home from that, because I was— we were driving, and I just really was feeling that this is— this really be a book? Is this my next book? Because I wanted to write a book. I just don’t know what it was going to be. Julie Lefebure [00:23:01 – 00:23:33] And I’ve always wanted to write a devotional. And ever since I wrote my, my other books, I thought, well, this, this might be the opportunity to do that. And so I laid it out and prayed about it, and God, uh, helped me to start writing it at the end of last summer. And, um, I just sat down with him and began to write. They’re small devotionals for every day, and that’s how it really came to be. And so I pulled from some of the material from my podcast. Of course, I had to expand on each one, but the groundwork was kind of already laid. Doris Swift [00:23:33 – 00:23:33] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:23:33 – 00:23:47] And I just expanded it more and made it to be more personal and relatable for the reader. So that’s how it came to be, and I didn’t really expect it, but it was really a gift that God had given me through that. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:23:47 – 00:24:15] Wow, thank you for sharing that. I think that’s very encouraging because then it kind of helps us to see like what is already in our hands, like what has God already given us. And sometimes we try to overthink things and processes and all of that, and It’s just like kind of the old adage, work smarter, not harder. You know, like, what have you done? Especially too, because you can see what things resonate with women. Julie Lefebure [00:24:15 – 00:24:15] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:24:15 – 00:24:36] You know, what is it that I guess in the writing world we call it the felt need? You know, what is it that they’re like needing to, to get some help with or encouragement with or, you know, and that kind of thing. And the fact being that all of your direction and encouragement are coming directly from biblical truth. Julie Lefebure [00:24:37 – 00:24:37] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:24:37 – 00:25:06] Because we see a lot of stuff not coming from biblical truth, and it’s more of a kind of a self-help kind of thing, and, you know, feel-good kind of thing, and like ideas from other people that implement things that may or may not be biblical. So I love that you are very grounded in the word and you want that to come out in how you share with women and where your ultimate authority comes from. Julie Lefebure [00:25:08 – 00:25:34] Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s me. I, I really have a hard time having a conversation with them, with someone, and not bring God into this conversation because he’s such a part of my life. You know, we talk about the things that are important to us. And so, you know, when I’m in a, in an environment where I really would be appropriate to bring God into the equation, I really start to feel uncomfortable because it’s such— he’s such a part of my life. Doris Swift [00:25:34 – 00:25:35] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:25:35 – 00:26:10] And you know what you were saying about, you know, kind of using the things that we have in our hands? I think many of us women feel like, I don’t have anything to offer. And we do. God’s already given us something. You know, we, we do have those things. We just maybe aren’t seeing it from his perspective yet. And so I, I love how God has a purpose and a plan for each one of us, that he doesn’t create us just to take up space. He creates us to, you know, go out and make a difference in this world and to love him and to serve him and to serve others. And I love how he does that differently through each one of us. Doris Swift [00:26:11 – 00:26:30] Yeah, it’s, it’s so personal, like you were saying earlier, you know, it’s very personal and important. And, you know, and I love how you brought out John 10:10 and you know, how that is so true that the enemy, you know, it’s like the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy. Julie Lefebure [00:26:30 – 00:26:30] Yes. Doris Swift [00:26:30 – 00:27:12] And it’s like, I sometimes when I speak and I, when I use that, I’ll have the women even circle that word only because that’s the only agenda that he has. But then we can’t forget the rest of the verse that you brought out, you know, that God has come to give us abundant life. And there’s so many that might take that out of context and kind of put it toward, you know, uh, like accumulating treasures on earth. Like, you know, all the things that will, you know, that the moths will eat. So, yeah, people, thieves can steal. So just, um, kind of doing things for eternal purposes is so important. Julie Lefebure [00:27:12 – 00:27:13] Exactly. Doris Swift [00:27:13 – 00:27:24] And I think that’s kind of how you you come for, you know, with your message and all of that to kind of direct women in that and encourage them with the inter— eternal purpose that they have. Julie Lefebure [00:27:25 – 00:27:25] Yeah. Doris Swift [00:27:25 – 00:27:51] And it’s just not about like, okay, let’s be sure that Jesus is our Lord and Savior so we can go to heaven. Because like you say, he, he wants us to live an abundant life here. And really, I mean, serving and loving other people and blessing them and encouraging them, that brings abundant joy. And that’s what you had shared, that really gives you joy, right, Julie? Julie Lefebure [00:27:52 – 00:28:18] Yeah, yeah, it, it does. That, that’s the thing. And then when, when we give that out to someone, then what happens is then they feel encouraged and kind of built up, and then they’re better able to then give that theirs out to someone else. So it just kind of, kind of just starts to spread, but it can just start with one person. Kind of like one candle, you know, lighting another person’s candle. And it can just become a big light that will shine bright for the Lord. And yeah, I love how he does that. Doris Swift [00:28:18 – 00:28:33] I know, it’s so precious and beautiful. And that, when you just said that, it kind of reminds me when you go like maybe the candlelight service on Christmas Eve or something. It’s like, now be sure the person whose candle isn’t lit is the one that needs to tilt theirs. You wind up wax all over. Julie Lefebure [00:28:33 – 00:28:34] You need to lean towards it. Doris Swift [00:28:35 – 00:28:40] Exactly. So there’s, you know, we got to follow the right way to do things. You can’t tilt the lit candle. Julie Lefebure [00:28:40 – 00:28:41] That’s not going to work. Right. Doris Swift [00:28:41 – 00:29:17] Um, but yeah, so I— and I think that is just really, really important. And just kind of, um, you know, sharing truth with others and being called to do that is very important. And, and I think too, like we were talking earlier, look and see what is in your hand. It was very good that you brought out the point that some women think that they don’t have anything to offer. And it’s like, well, You know, look back and see what have you done in your life. Like, even secular jobs, you don’t necessarily have to have worked in a church. Julie Lefebure [00:29:17 – 00:29:17] Mm-hmm. Doris Swift [00:29:17 – 00:30:14] Or, you know, where have you volunteered? Where have you worked? What kind of talents and skills has he given you over the years, over the course of time? What people have he— has he brought into your life, into your path? You know, like these different divine appointments that we might not even recognize or realize. at the time that could maybe come to something later. Because sometimes he gives us people that are just for the— this time, and then some people are in there in your life for a long time. Like, like you’ve been in my life for a long time. We might not necessarily talk all the time, you know, we might not necessarily reach out and, you know, connect all the time, but we just kind of love knowing that we’re sisters in Christ and we can see what God is doing in our lives and, you know, very similar direction in, in the, uh, women’s ministry kind of lane. Julie Lefebure [00:30:15 – 00:30:22] Right, right. Yeah. So if, uh, and you know, I— yeah, it’s— yeah, you’re right. You’re spot on. I totally agree. Doris Swift [00:30:22 – 00:30:52] Yeah. So what would you say maybe to a woman who’s listening now who feels like maybe what they’re doing is very insignificant. They’re not really sure what their calling is. And of course, we don’t want people to be anxious about that because that wouldn’t be from God, you know. So how would you encourage a woman right now, um, who’s wondering, well, what do I have to offer and how, how can I walk in my calling? Julie Lefebure [00:30:53 – 00:31:53] Yeah, you know, and I, I think sometimes we get paralyzed with that word calling, because it’s important and it’s— it makes sense to, to us. But yet it’s also like, gosh, I don’t know what my calling is. I don’t have a calling, or I don’t— you know, what am I supposed to do with my life? You know, maybe I’m already well into my years of my life, and I, I feel like I’m just here taking up space. And again, this is part of that refusing to settle. If we do feel like we’re just taking up space, I think that’s a wake-up call to say, okay, God, what, what do you have for me? It may not be, what do you have for the rest of my life? What do you have for me today? What do I have? What have you given me that I can use for your service? It may not be today. It might be changing diapers today. It might be, you know, wiping up the spills for the 100th time today. It might be caring for— a sick loved one. Julie Lefebure [00:31:53 – 00:32:31] Maybe it’s, it’s you got a diagnosis and you just— what you need to do today is just— God’s going to say, just sit with me, abide with me. It may not be this big, huge, grandiose, it’s going to be the rest of your life type of path. It may just be just for today. And so I— that’s, I think, how we need to live our lives. Yes, we— it does. You know, God’s word does say to, you know, plan. But it also says, you know, that— oh goodness, what is it, Proverbs— that says, um, but that people plan their, their paths, but it’s the Lord that directs their steps. Doris Swift [00:32:31 – 00:32:31] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:32:31 – 00:33:07] I mean, when we seek God first, he’s always going to just direct us to where we need to go next. And also to lean into what brings you joy. What do you do that brings you joy? Uh, what is it that just, you know, just makes you feel like you are living your your, your, your passion out. And that’s different for each one of us. So Doris and I, we can’t, we can’t choose that for you. But God has something for you. And that is, that may be totally different than anything you’ve thought about. But all of a sudden, you might be realizing, well, wait a minute, I really enjoy whatever it might be. Julie Lefebure [00:33:07 – 00:33:43] You know, I don’t want to give an example. It may be something that you’ve never thought of before. But I Firmly believe that when we start to feel like we’re just taking up space or that we don’t have a calling, that’s an invitation to just go to God and say, what do you have for me? He will show you. He’s not going to ignore you. He’s not going to say, well, you’ve already blown it, you’ve done this, so you can’t— I can’t use you anymore. That’s not God. And he has perfect plans and purposes for each one of us. And I’m going to be praying for Um, woman today because I was there and I get it. Julie Lefebure [00:33:44 – 00:33:54] And I think many of us have been there, so you’re not alone. And it’s, it’s just a beautiful time with God that he will lead you in if you just seek him. Doris Swift [00:33:54 – 00:33:54] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:33:55 – 00:33:55] Wow. Doris Swift [00:33:55 – 00:34:56] Yes, that was very beautifully said and so encouraging to a woman who’s listening right now who really needed to hear that truth today. And, you know, and to kind of dispel the lies, you know, oftentimes we might even have these things come to mind like Well, she’s already doing that, or she’s doing that better, you know, or, you know, and as far as like in the author lane, well, there’s a book already on that, so why would, why would I need to write a book on it? If that is what you’re supposed to be doing, you know, and God will give it to you, but in, in the way that he’s gifted you and equipped you, and it’s gonna look different. I mean, we all can have even the same spiritual gift, but we use it differently because of the way that he has created us. We’re all created in his image, but we all maybe approach things differently depending on how he’s wired us, you know, how he has, um, yeah, made us. So, and that we were made for more. Julie Lefebure [00:34:57 – 00:34:59] So we have to— Yeah, absolutely we were. Doris Swift [00:34:59 – 00:35:00] We have to remember that. Julie Lefebure [00:35:00 – 00:35:04] And I Yes. And I have 2 examples of that, if I could share real quick. Doris Swift [00:35:04 – 00:35:05] Sure. Julie Lefebure [00:35:05 – 00:35:11] Bob Goff. Bob Goff. He’s a well, you know, a well-known author. He wrote a book called Undistracted. Doris Swift [00:35:11 – 00:35:11] And I— Julie Lefebure [00:35:12 – 00:35:53] that was gonna be my book when he wrote. Of course, mine was from a different perspective. So when I wrote my book, I was almost tempted to say, well, there’s already enough books out there like that. But I, you know, of course, mine was from my perspective. And so mine was, mine was called Right Now Matters about living in the moment and undistracted. But so even though Bob Goff wrote this book, I can still write my book. And even if, you know, you had your, your podcast before me, if I would have thought, well, there’s too many podcasts, Doris has a podcast, so that means I probably shouldn’t have a podcast, right? But we come from two— we’re still both biblically based, but we come from two different angles. And it’s— I love how God is just so creative through each one of us. Julie Lefebure [00:35:53 – 00:35:55] So I’m really glad you brought that out. That’s so very important. Doris Swift [00:35:56 – 00:35:56] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:35:56 – 00:36:04] That, you know, just because someone else has done it doesn’t mean that you’re going to do it exactly like her. And you shouldn’t do it just like her. He— God has something else for you instead. Doris Swift [00:36:04 – 00:36:05] Exactly. Julie Lefebure [00:36:05 – 00:36:08] That may be in a similar line, but maybe a different perspective. Doris Swift [00:36:08 – 00:37:02] Yeah. And very unique. And even like, yeah, again, from a writing perspective, if you ever do like a book proposal, at the end there’s a place, you know, in the proposal where you’re supposed to list books that are very similar to yours, but then you have to say, but mine is different because— and you can definitely— self-publishing is amazing, and you can do that. If you get traditionally published, publishers are going to ask, like, what is different about your book, you know, kind of thing. And it really makes you think, why is it different? Or maybe helps you find ways that it is more unique, you know, that they’re not going to get this. But it’s okay if women hear the same biblical truth over and over in different books, um, but ultimately the book they really need to just focus and meditate on is the Bible. Julie Lefebure [00:37:03 – 00:37:05] Yeah, exactly. Doris Swift [00:37:05 – 00:37:54] That’s the main book. And then books that come out of biblical truth really need to be solid in that because there’s a lot of other books that are not. And just to have that discernment and wisdom from God to really, really see, like, test it against the Word, you know, and kind of go back and say, where is this? And it really helps you with Bible study too because it keeps you sharp. And if you know the Word, you’re going to recognize the counterfeit, the enemy’s counterfeit. And so I think that’s important to remember. So thank you so much. And, um, if you would like to share any last thoughts that maybe you felt on your heart that you would want to, that you haven’t gotten a chance to share yet, and then Um, let us know, like, how the listener can connect with you and find your books and all the things that you have available and your resources. Julie Lefebure [00:37:56 – 00:38:31] Sure. Yeah, I, um, I, I guess I would just say, just to, to the last little word, that thought that I have is that, you know, God is so— he cares about the details of our lives. He— I, I, I— the longer I live, the, the more I just realize it’s almost— it’s— it just makes me kind of chuckle because things that I get stuck with, things that I struggle with, the things that I— what do I want to say? Just, just you have to battle through some days. I look to God and he always— he’s always there. He cares about what we’re going through. Doris Swift [00:38:32 – 00:38:32] Yeah. Julie Lefebure [00:38:32 – 00:39:21] Sometimes I think that we think that we have to bear it ourselves when God is just standing by the sidelines saying, here, let me carry this for you. And I love that picture because I have to sometimes physically, well, in my mind, think that, okay, I’m gonna hand my backpack that’s full of rocks and heaviness off to God because he can handle it. I can’t. And I just walk with him in it. He does care about every single detail, whether it’s small, whether it’s big. And so no matter what you may be experiencing today, hand it off to God, walk with him in it, and he will lighten your load and he will help you to be that woman who is living the abundant life for him. And I love, I love him so much to be able to just know that we are fully protected and in his care every single moment of every day. Doris Swift [00:39:21 – 00:39:22] Beautiful. Julie Lefebure [00:39:22 – 00:39:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you, and you can find me at julielefebure.com. I know my name, last name is kind of weird, but I married into that name and I love that name. But it’s L-E-F-E-B-U-R-E. So julielefebure.com, and everything is there. And you can also find my books on Amazon if you’re an Amazon person. And, you know, I— you can follow me on social media, Julie Lefebure, on Facebook and Instagram and all, you know, all the channels. So I would love to be able to connect with you in any of those spaces. Doris Swift [00:39:58 – 00:41:02] Great. Well, thank you so much, and I will be sure to put those links and things in the show notes so the listener can find you and reach out. And this has been really an amazing conversation. I love how you brought out things that you’ve struggled with. And I think that’s— I think your most recent podcast episode, you kind of talked about those things, so women can listen to that and see, well, what, what are those things? Um, but, you know, that’s right. But I love that you said that you love God so much, and I think that’s where Really, it comes from like we love God so much that we have a heart to love others like Jesus. And if you don’t know Jesus, if you don’t know the character of God, and maybe you’ve had some hurt and pain in your life, and maybe you know if you’re listening right now and you’ve had some things happen like church hurt or something in your family or brokenness, you know, and maybe. you could possibly have a distorted view of God’s character and who he really is. Doris Swift [00:41:03 – 00:41:20] Um, just seek him because he invites us to seek him and we will find him. And so just, you know, pray on that and God is there. Like Julie said, he will answer, answer prayers, and not necessarily in the way we might think, but— Julie Lefebure [00:41:20 – 00:41:20] Right. Doris Swift [00:41:21 – 00:41:44] You know, but I love how, you know, the word tells us that he will do exceedingly abundantly above what we ask or think. So to keep that encouragement in mind and to just read the Bible, just open it and start reading. And God, you know, reveals Himself through His Word, and that’s how we get to know Him. And so, Julie, I love this so much, and I hope to have you back on sometime. Julie Lefebure [00:41:44 – 00:41:46] Yeah, this has been so fun. Thank you for inviting me. Doris Swift [00:41:46 – 00:42:01] Yes, it’s been a great pleasure to have you. And friends, I hope you’ll join me next time. When I talk with another guest who’s taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In this episode, Doris sits down with Sarah Jean Snyder, author of He Said Saga: The Daughter’s Story. The conversation focused on Sarah’s deeply personal journey—her father’s battle with MS, her own diagnosis, and how these experiences intersected with her spiritual growth. A key theme that emerged was how the purpose behind Sarah’s writing evolved over a decade, transforming from sharing her father’s story to encouraging others through her faith. The discussion explored the challenges of living with chronic illness, the significance of supportive communities both in-person and online, and the unexpected ways God leads us through difficult seasons. Several points were raised in this encouraging conversation, including the importance of sharing our stories honestly, embracing change, and finding hope and healing in unexpected places. Join us as Sarah reveals how her family’s legacy and her faith continue to light the path forward—not just for herself, but for anyone navigating hardship.  Sarah shares how, through her father’s circumstances, she learned what it looks like to function through sadness, how to trust even with unanswered prayers, and that life isn’t always fair. However, she also learned to focus on the good and be grateful for it. In the end, sickness isn’t the story. Disclaimer statement: The views expressed in this episode or any other episodes of this podcast are for informational purposes only. This content does not replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways Writing Journey and Spiritual Growth The process of writing her book over a decade Initial intent to share her father’s story about MS and how her own diagnosis influenced the narrative Transformation of the book’s purpose and the element of faith guiding the journey The importance of taking the first step even without full understanding of the “why” Impact of Baptism and Faith Milestones Reaffirmation of baptism as an adult and its spiritual significance Reflection on being a preacher’s kid and hesitance to focus on religious elements How moments that seem accidental are viewed as divine interventions The Book’s Structure and Themes Inclusion of personal photos and stories in the book Use of a Facebook group for chronicling and processing her journey The shift from being a book about MS to a story of spiritual transformation and faith Living with MS and Sharing Hope The process of documenting both her father’s and her own experience with MS Contrast in perspectives: witnessing her father’s illness and experiencing her own Sharing hope and healing found in Jesus for those facing medical challenges The Ending That’s Not the End Discussion of how the story continues beyond the book’s final pages Inclusion of group support through online communities Encouragement that everyone’s story is ongoing and evolving Community, Support, and Group Dynamics The role of group studies and support groups for people facing similar challenges How the book’s message transcends MS to address broader emotional and physical struggles Sharing her father’s struggle and spiritual healing from alcoholism Concepts of Healing and Acceptance Comparison between physical and spiritual healing Sarah’s father’s experience: sobriety as a form of healing even without physical recovery from MS Advancements in MS therapies and the shift towards holistic health approaches Health Wisdom and Lifestyle Changes Pursuing knowledge and wisdom through faith and research The importance of gut health and dietary changes, including gluten elimination Learning from dealing with both her own diagnosis and her son’s epilepsy Recognition of the evolving nature of bodies and personal health needs Autoimmune Conditions and MS Education Explanation of MS as an autoimmune condition affecting the nervous system Comparison of MS to electrical cords with compromised protective layers Acknowledgment of the complexities and unknowns in autoimmunity Transparency and Vulnerability in Storytelling Importance of sharing both victories and struggles (divorce, miscarriage, challenges) Using personal story to comfort and encourage others in similar situations Response from the MS community and broader audience through social media Encouragement for Others to Share Their Stories The impact and value of women sharing their stories Overcoming hesitancy, comparison, or feelings of inadequacy when sharing The ripple effect of encouragement and connection within faith communities God’s Providence and Community Connections Unexpected connections and meetings within faith and author circles The role of community events in building support and encouragement Recognition that God orchestrates encounters and opportunities for sharing The Purpose of the Book: Sharing Jesus Emphasis that the ultimate purpose is to share God’s love and the message of Jesus The invitation at the book’s conclusion for readers to receive Jesus’s message Ongoing calling to use her platform for faith-sharing Resources and Accessibility of Her Story Information on where to find her book (website, local stores, Amazon) Announcement of the upcoming audiobook featuring family members as narrators Prayer and Final Encouragement Praying for listeners and readers to feel loved and receive the message Affirmation of God’s unconditional love and grace Encouragement that even in hard and ongoing journeys, hope and purpose persist Personal and Family Reflections Significance of her middle name “Jean” and its family legacy Importance of family involvement in both her story and her audiobook project 🤝 Connect with Sarah! You can connect with Sarah at https://www.hesaidsaga.com/ Sarah Jean Snyder lives with multiple sclerosis. She is a preacher’s kid, an optician and a mother. She loves the Lord. 🙏 Your Story Matters As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Transcript Doris Swift [00:00:00 – 00:01:29] What if your hardest seasons, your deepest passions, and all the things you’ve walked through and are currently walking through were meant to become the very calling God has placed on your life? Welcome to the Fierce Calling Podcast. I’m your host, Dara Swift, and I invite guests who are taking action where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and share their stories. Of faith, hard seasons, resilience, and their calling. So together we’ll discover how God uses every part of our stories, and how when we say yes to Him and use our gifts to impact the world, that God can do extraordinary things in the midst of our ordinary days. And sometimes hearing someone else’s yes to God is just what we need To find the courage to say yes to Him too. So my hope is that the stories you hear will encourage, inspire, and challenge you to step out and discover your own fierce calling, because your story may be the very place where God is preparing you to jump into the work He prepared in advance for you to do, and to follow Jesus in deeper and more profound ways. So yes, this is Fierce Calling. And if you’re ready to discover where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect and step out in faith to make a difference, you’re in the right place, friend. Doris Swift [00:01:29 – 00:02:23] So listen in while I have a chat with today’s guest who has a message to share with you. Welcome back to the show. Today I am so excited to welcome my friend, Sarah Snyder. We’ve done some book signings together at a local Christian bookstore. There was an author event at one of the churches we both served there together and did the author event. That was fun. And Sarah has quite a story of her spiritual journey, physical journey, you know, all these different things that have come out in a book that she wrote that is kind of a continuing book, which I’ll let her explain what that means, uh, from when her dad— his writings and things. And it’s called He Said Saga: The Daughter’s Story. Doris Swift [00:02:23 – 00:02:29] So here it is, and I love the COVID She’s standing on the speedway. Is that Daytona Speedway, or— Sarah Snyder [00:02:30 – 00:03:19] It is, yes. Thank you for introducing me. I’m happy to be here with you, and I’m super thankful for this opportunity, and I’ve enjoyed speaking with you in the past. So I did write a book called He Said Saga, and it’s based around a story that my dad wrote in the early ’90s about his experience with MS. And I do hope to publish that book as well again at some point. But my book is currently available, and throughout writing, it was over a decade, my intent was to just share his story. It was never— I didn’t really know what the purpose of the book was when I was following the steps of writing it and beginning it. So in the end, I, like you, want to be an encourager to other writers. Sarah Snyder [00:03:19 – 00:03:24] Just if you don’t know the ending, that’s okay. It’s all a surprise to me and to you. Doris Swift [00:03:25 – 00:03:25] Yeah. Sarah Snyder [00:03:26 – 00:03:50] I just started documenting his story about MS And what a great man he was. And then I became diagnosed as well, found the Lord. And a lot of it is just looking back and seeing and writing too, like how I was then and how I am now. So readers can see throughout the decade of writing. Doris Swift [00:03:50 – 00:04:38] Yeah. Yeah. It’s a really powerful book. And I love that you share how it didn’t start out the way it ended up, which is really, I think, powerful also in the fact that the Lord led you to what this was going to turn out to be. And so, yeah, and I love to ask my guests, you know, where they’re taking action, where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. And I’m so thankful to welcome you on today to share about that and share more about the book. And yeah, it’s just, it’s, There’s, there’s photos in here. There’s, um, like, you know, you had a Facebook group that you share posts about your journey and all of that. Doris Swift [00:04:38 – 00:05:09] But as we were talking about before we started recording, that ultimately it became a story of your spiritual journey and growth and, you know, your walk with Christ. So if you could share a little bit about that and how, like, when this project first began, what did that look like, as you kind of shared a little already, but also how the Lord just was with you all along the way, as we know that He is. Sarah Snyder [00:05:11 – 00:06:14] Yeah, so I knew that I was supposed to write the book, but I did not really know who for or what it would turn into or anything like that. So I always think the first step now of whatever you feel like you’re supposed to be doing, there’s something that can be divine about the purpose. And I feel like I’m still on the journey of learning what that purpose is. But in the beginning, I was, well, not really the beginning. It’s probably in chapter 5 somewhere. I was discussing how I did a baptism reaffirmation and, um, It actually— I feel like things like this actually happen in my whole life. So I was having internal questions of, am I really baptized? Like, of course the Lord knows me as a follower, but I was sprinkled as an infant. And I am super thankful for my experiences with my family and that they knew that I belonged to the Lord and that they made that relationship known early on. Sarah Snyder [00:06:14 – 00:07:25] So I do not want to say anything negatively about that. I went to the reaffirmation in the ocean, and I was thinking, how can I remember my baptism when I was an infant? And then the pastor, he— when they do a reaffirmation, they say, remember your baptism and keep it holy. Well, he didn’t know any of my internal dialogue or questions and did the baptism and said, I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, and then he was like, oh, I’m sorry, where’d that come from? So things happen that look like accidents, but that was on purpose. Like, the Lord really spoke through him, you know, she is mine. And so in writing that book, in early chapter 5, I said, this is how much I didn’t want my own story to turn into something religious. I’m a preacher’s kid, and I thought it was going to be about MS, so I didn’t think anything about that was important to mention, but I did. And I said that he said, the Father… Sarah Snyder [00:07:25 – 00:08:00] That’s all I put. I didn’t even want to say Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It’s not a biblical story, you know. And then it’s kind of funny, I did that baptism in the middle of the Country 500, left it and went. The Country 500 is actually where the COVID was taken, at the Daytona Speedway. So I didn’t even think of that coincidence until I’m talking to you just now. But I was baptized, and I didn’t feel like that would be significant. And then you continue reading, I feel like you can see my own faith kind of continue to expand. Sarah Snyder [00:08:00 – 00:08:47] And I end the book with a chapter called Invited. And it is just the Lord’s Prayer and from the Sermon on the Mount, and then a verse in Numbers about, may the Lord turn His face upon you. And so I feel like that kind of has become the whole purpose of my life, of Calling on My Life. And it is about Jesus. And I feel like people who are going through medical conditions, you know, you can look at something and not feel hopeful, especially me having this diagnosis after seeing my dad’s experience. Um, but hope really is something that’s available to us through Jesus, and I feel like there’s a purpose on my life to share that now. Doris Swift [00:08:48 – 00:09:22] Yeah, wow, that is really beautiful, and I love how the Lord just led you to totally transform this project from what you originally thought it was going to be. And I really love at the end how you did end it, like, with the blessing, you know? And it’s just, it’s always such a powerful thing to read it or say it out loud, you know? And just some other things that you shared. But, and also when you’re getting toward the end, how it was like, but it’s not the end. And then here’s another, you know, here’s more, here’s more, here’s more. Sarah Snyder [00:09:22 – 00:09:22] I know. Doris Swift [00:09:23 – 00:09:27] That’s how our story is. Like, God is not finished with us, right? Sarah Snyder [00:09:27 – 00:09:28] Right. Doris Swift [00:09:28 – 00:09:30] So, you know, he— Sarah Snyder [00:09:30 – 00:09:30] it’s still— Doris Swift [00:09:31 – 00:09:54] yeah, it’s still ongoing. So that’s what I love also about your book, but you share a lot of personal things in your journey, um, fun, funny things, hard things, you know, um, and so this— a lot of it also kind of came from A group that you had, right? A Facebook group that you would share. Sarah Snyder [00:09:54 – 00:10:42] Yeah, it’s— he said Saga as well. And so I’ve just kind of, after appointments, been processing my own, um, experiences through all that. I, I don’t post as much after appointments now, but I’ve been feeling great for 5 years. And so there really is hope and healing that I’ll also discuss. Um, after publishing, I went to a place called Jesus Image in Orlando just for one night, and afterwards went with a group of friends to a restaurant, and someone handed me a bowl of pickles, which also, if you read in my story at the beginning, at restaurants with my dad, they would always bring me bowls of pickles. So it’s like, you, you can see more than signs. Like, it’s more than coincidences. Doris Swift [00:10:42 – 00:10:44] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:10:45 – 00:11:00] right thing. I don’t know, it’s, it’s been a blessing. I’ve always heard about how the Lord, um, is with you, and I’ve always felt he is with me, but it’s beyond something I can cause. Like, who randomly gives someone a bowl of pickles? No. Doris Swift [00:11:01 – 00:11:15] That is a powerful part of your story, how you share about Jesus through the book, you know, throughout the book. And it wasn’t really something you meant to start that with? So it kind of just came. Sarah Snyder [00:11:17 – 00:11:45] Yeah, I like at the beginning of your book, the intro talks about, um, you invited women to lay down their burdens. And I don’t know why I’m realizing women with MS specifically— I mean, maybe it’s women like you’ve noticed in your experiences, but women with MS often feel like they have a burden with the disease. And so I feel like my book in processing my own diagnosis might relate also to people that are experiencing other medical conditions. Doris Swift [00:11:45 – 00:11:46] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:11:47 – 00:12:36] You know, um, but yeah, laying down that burden, that’s part of what my whole book has been, just laying down, writing it out, getting it out of my head. And, and watching dad suffer, um, I didn’t think healing was something that would happen. And MS is relapse-remitting, So people can be better, that can be expected. Um, but I’m still hopeful that it will, for me, continue to be good. But either way, um, I’m grateful to be recognizing how God is on my path and how he wants me to others. But I really like that you encouraged your book to be a group. Um, so you have other people, you know, that can help you process those different things, but laying down burdens, that’s a good step one that you pointed out. Doris Swift [00:12:38 – 00:14:07] Yeah, well, thank you for bringing that up. And it is kind of an interesting thing where you can have a group that goes through, you know, the study like that, that have common things, like a common, um, issue, you know, health issue or something like that. You know, maybe, you know, people who are struggling with, you know, there might be groups that meet to encourage each other who have prodigal children or any things like that. So it could be physically, it could be emotionally and different other things. Um, But I love that you also share encouragement and speak to a community of people who may or may not have MS, because I read this book and I found it very interesting. And it’s important to, you know, know facts, and it can also apply to a lot of other health issues that people might experience throughout their life. but also encouraging them, uh, you know, in different ways, like in sharing your dad’s story. Because I know in the book you talk some about— you share his story where he, you know, as far as like, yeah, well, maybe there wasn’t the physical healing this side of heaven, but he was spiritually healed of alcoholism, right? So that was something that he was very vocal and power— felt powerfully about the fact that God did a healing work in him, right? Can you expand a little bit on that? Sarah Snyder [00:14:08 – 00:14:48] Yeah, so I, whenever I was younger or even a few years back, honestly, the verse or the scripture story about how Jesus healed the man by the river, or I’m sorry, by the water, for he had been there for years and years, and then Jesus told him to get up. So I was saying to my mom, how did healing not happen to my dad? Because I watched someone that believed in the Lord, believed in sharing his story, who felt like he was healed of alcoholism. I, I only knew his life sober, you know. Doris Swift [00:14:48 – 00:14:49] Right. Sarah Snyder [00:14:49 – 00:15:42] Um, I got to meet all the AA friends, and, um, so that, that was a blessing. But I feel like honesty, transparency, that’s always been a big deal for my family. And I think through who I am that just naturally comes out now. But yeah, healing— he was never mad at God or never expressed that. And that was hard for me to imagine because as his daughter, I felt like, you know, he deserved it. He deserved healing. But now living with knowing that he had that occur and he was not physically healed on this side of heaven, like you said. I think he would have wanted me to know just how powerful the Lord can be anyways, and how healing looks different. Sarah Snyder [00:15:43 – 00:16:01] And even though he was deserving, like, I feel like his path lit my way, I say, because I have been doing things that are different, like IV vitamin therapy and It wasn’t really, you know, 20, 30 years ago something that was discussed or is easily available in communities. Doris Swift [00:16:03 – 00:16:54] Yeah, so he led the way is what you were saying, which, you know, there have been some advancements, you know, since he was kind of dealing with the whole things with the symptoms and the progression of the disease and all of that, but also it caused you to take a journey, not only spiritually, which was the most important journey, but also to gain the knowledge. ‘Cause God gives us wisdom. You know, it says in James, we pray for wisdom, he gives us wisdom. And so you were led to certain doctors, you were led to certain information that was, you know, that was good. And you talk also in the book about gut health and how important that is. If you wanna expand any on— some of the things that you’ve learned over the course of this journey and still continue to learn? Sarah Snyder [00:16:55 – 00:18:02] Sure. Um, so I have been learning a lot about health and how important, um, just overall well-being is. On an MS side, I’m super grateful that doing the vitamin therapy, I haven’t had any progression. Um, but I always am cautious of talking about how great I feel and how energy, uh, I’ve noticed comes through rest and comes through, for me, through IV vitamin therapy. I know there are people like my dad who wouldn’t have been able to go to the gym and exercise, and, you know, so it’s kind of hard. My heart goes out to people that are experiencing these things on my level or his level, you know, and I can’t see what the future will look like, and I’m feeling great today, but I think that, that helps me know that when I feel like I should share, there’s nothing holding me back now, you know. Um, I know that God is with me, and I know that my intentions are just to be helpful and in whatever that looks like. And the only way I know how to, to express that is just say what works for me, you know. Doris Swift [00:18:02 – 00:18:02] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:18:02 – 00:18:27] Uh, God’s love is, is right here. There are, um, yeah, he just leads you to the right place at the right time, the right doctors, the right It’s really been something that has been eye-opening to me because I felt like I was a Christian my entire life. And now, I guess, as you continue to grow and grow, things always are different than anticipated. Doris Swift [00:18:28 – 00:18:28] Yeah. Sarah Snyder [00:18:29 – 00:18:44] So it’s been— I’m thankful, and I hope that I continue to be thankful regardless of the outcome. But my heart goes out to To people that are on— it’s a broad spectrum, just like a lot of what anyone experiences. Doris Swift [00:18:44 – 00:19:35] Yeah, so there’s different levels of it. And too, for me, because knowing you personally, you’re always like a ray of sunshine every time I see you. I mean, you just radiate Jesus, and you are just very positive and very sweet spirit. That’s just how I have always perceived you. That’s how you are. So reading the book, it really touched my heart because there are struggles that we don’t see, you know, sometimes that people are going through and how much people can be going through when we don’t really realize it, you know. And so it helped me to learn even more about you and about your journey. But seeing how God has brought you through, Um, but I do love that you share. Doris Swift [00:19:35 – 00:20:31] There are different levels of it. You know, it’s not always going to be the same for everybody, the experiences. So when you were sent to different doctors, like doing the, you know, the vitamin therapy and natural ways that our bodies can respond, like you discovered some things about your body as far as like diet changes, right? What are some things? And I know, you know, you want to necessarily recommend it because it has to be something that people talk about with their doctor, or it might not be right for them or something. But what are some good healthy things? Because it could be good for anybody really, not just, you know, not just if we’re facing a health issue, but to prevent future health issues. What kind of knowledge have you really gleaned from, you know, when you’ve researched on that? Sarah Snyder [00:20:32 – 00:21:09] Yeah, so something initially that was beneficial for me and also my son was a gluten elimination diet, and I initially started just to be supportive of him and his experiences, and he, um, he’s not super public about everything that he goes through, but he does have epilepsy and is okay with me sharing that, I know. Um, but seizures can be linked to gluten. So I initially, uh, was supporting him and thought, oh, I’ll just eat it when I’m not with them. So I tried that. Doris Swift [00:21:09 – 00:21:10] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:21:10 – 00:21:18] And I guess when you remove something from your diet and then add it back in, um, there, there can be more of a significant issue. Doris Swift [00:21:18 – 00:21:18] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:21:19 – 00:21:49] And which is good for you seeing what the problem is. But anyway, so I, I cheated when he was at school and I got very sick, so I just, I went, uh, like 15 years without gluten, and I just had, uh, a little bit recently and I seem to be okay. So it’s like your body can heal over time of certain things, and moderation is important, and I think I had a lot of other factors as well, stress and— Doris Swift [00:21:49 – 00:21:50] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:21:50 – 00:22:18] Things like that. But, um, which is interesting to me about gluten being the problem, uh, it is a higher prevalence in people that have autoimmune conditions and MS. So, um, I have learned what was okay to eat. And like I said, moderation is, is, I think, a key factor. So diet can be changing. And that, that began a big process of me wanting to start the story. Doris Swift [00:22:18 – 00:22:18] Yeah. Sarah Snyder [00:22:19 – 00:22:24] So in the end, things might be different than what you’re thinking. Doris Swift [00:22:25 – 00:23:28] Yeah, and I think that’s good that you try because what do they say? Our bodies go through cycles like every 7 years or something like that where things might change. Like, I know I didn’t used to be— I don’t know if that’s good English, but I didn’t used to be allergic to like oysters and scallops, and then Because I used to eat them and I enjoyed them, and then all of a sudden, on a few different occasions when I ate them, I got sick every time. And I thought, do I want to keep trying this, or do I want to just not eat them at all? And so I’ve always wondered, if I tried to eat it again, would it make me sick? I don’t know. I mean, now, by now, maybe things have changed with my body makeup, you know, maybe it wouldn’t cause that anymore, but I don’t know. And it’s Fine for me not to take that risk and eat it. But, um, but it wasn’t anything that seemed life-threatening. I would just get like a very bad intestinal, like, like food poisoning kind of, um, symptoms, which aren’t pleasant, you know. So I haven’t tried it again. Doris Swift [00:23:29 – 00:23:39] But, you know, you just, you just never know. So adding certain things back slowly, maybe just to see, your body will let you know. You know, if it’s— Sarah Snyder [00:23:39 – 00:23:49] yeah, I had a friend telling me about a certain probiotic that, uh, good to take after trying. And she told me about it a few times. Doris Swift [00:23:50 – 00:23:50] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:23:50 – 00:24:32] At the same— coincidentally, my, my doctor, um, because I was being antibiotic resistant and UTI stuff, which I guess can also be common in MS, um, he prescribed that a probiotic for me. And then I was with my friend and realized, as she was telling me to try it out, if I tried certain foods, um, I realized I had that on my bathroom counter because the doctor had already coincidentally prescribed it to me. Anyways, I don’t know if you’ll want to, to share this stuff to do the probiotic. Um, and then in my story, I also talked about how It’s the, um, the wheat and tares. Doris Swift [00:24:32 – 00:24:32] Great. Sarah Snyder [00:24:32 – 00:25:01] Um, talks about how the enemy comes in and sows weed with the wheat, and it just seems like no wonder everyone is having a gluten problem. Why? Like, the enemy’s in our bread. I feel like the Bible just gives you little clues here and there, and you— but, but I’m not a theologian. I’m just saying, like, it’s— it doesn’t seem Surprise that a lot of people are having a problem processing gluten in their bodies. Doris Swift [00:25:02 – 00:26:00] Yeah, and plus, you know, back in biblical times, things were so much more natural, you know, and there weren’t any pesticides and there weren’t, you know, any nitrates or, you know, preservatives or anything like that. It was all natural, and things that we sometimes will put in our body without even realizing it are things that our bodies have no idea what to do with. You know, it’s like, this is not natural. So what do— where do I put it? And then it winds up going into like fat cells or it winds up going into, you know, some other place that it doesn’t belong and it can cause a lot of issues. And then talking about, because, you know, I do have other friends that also have that diagnosis of MS, which is multiple sclerosis, right? If you could explain just a little bit, and I know you do in the book, What exactly is that? You know, what happens in your body when you have it? And it could be— I know there’s different levels and stuff of it, but— Sarah Snyder [00:26:01 – 00:26:10] Yeah. So MS in general, it affects your brain and nervous system, the myelin sheath, and disrupts how your body connects. Doris Swift [00:26:10 – 00:26:14] I know in the book there’s a photo that you provide and it looks like a charger. Sarah Snyder [00:26:15 – 00:26:25] Yeah, I’ll say MS To me, it was explained when I was a kid how there’s a protective layer around, like, an iron cord, for example, or a charging cord. Doris Swift [00:26:25 – 00:26:26] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:26:26 – 00:27:22] And when you have MS, there are parts of that protective layer of tissue that leave the nerve or wire exposed, which can create many different symptoms. And it can be something that comes and goes and Um, but MS, it’s also, uh, your immune system becomes overactive and your body is fighting something. So it does make me wonder, uh, if there’s just— well, there definitely is more to MS than everyone understands, or it wouldn’t be that people have a problem with it. Um, I mean, it would already be cured is what I’m saying, but Yeah, it’s your body is overprotecting. Uh, so I feel like there is some sort of factor that hasn’t been, you know, caught just yet. Like, what is our body fighting in the end? Doris Swift [00:27:22 – 00:28:15] Yeah, yeah. And like you said, it’s autoimmune, right? Um, which there’s a lot of different kinds of autoimmune conditions. So I think it’s interesting to understand a little bit about what it is, you know, so that we can understand what the Lord was helping you battle, you know, as far as the symptoms and the things like that. But you share a lot of, uh, your story and even the real raw times when you— like right after you got the diagnosis, um, you obviously— I think you said you, you told your, your mom and your, and your son, your family, but then you did share it on the page. It’s not the diagnosis you were hoping for, but it was kind of like, it is what it is, but let’s see now what God’s going to do kind of thing and move forward in it. Sarah Snyder [00:28:15 – 00:28:15] Right. Doris Swift [00:28:15 – 00:28:58] But I love how you talk about joy and peace can’t compare to the joy that is coming. This is in chapter 12. It says, I have learned big life lessons recently on this divorce path. So you were talking— you talk about things that you went through. You, you went through a divorce, you went through, um, a child loss, you had a miscarriage that you share about in the book. And those are really hard things. But I think, like you said, um, we, you know, God opens the door for us to share our stories and parts of our stories that are, that are hard. And so that Others can be encouraged who are also going through it. Doris Swift [00:28:58 – 00:29:32] You know, like the scripture that says that we can encourage others with the comfort that we’ve received. You know, we can comfort others because of the comfort that we received. So I think that is definitely what you’re doing, and you’ve done this through your book and through your page. When you were sharing on your, on your page— I know you might not post there as often, but when you were— Was it— what was the response that you would receive? Like, were there people on the page that responded often, or how did that work? Sarah Snyder [00:29:32 – 00:30:08] Yeah, I do have a lot of supportive friends and other people that I’ve met in the MS community. I recently did a podcast with a lady in Australia that has a movie. She’s a movie producer with MS and shares her story as well. So I feel like I’m connecting with women who are trying to follow what the Lord wants them to do in general. And for some of us, like you with writing, it just is expressing yourself really may help someone else kind of process what they’re going through. And every situation is going to look completely different. Doris Swift [00:30:08 – 00:30:08] Yeah. Sarah Snyder [00:30:08 – 00:30:54] And I think women need to know that, like, sharing their story, a lot of people I found want to be quiet because they feel like it’s not as bad as what someone else is going through, or there’s just a wide variety of why people aren’t sharing. And I think shutting that thought down or turning that thought away, it really helps you, and it’s helping you help other people. And in the end, isn’t that what is supposed to happen in life? You know, we can connect and be encouraging, and it’s amazing to see Like how people know different people. I met you in— we were in another state, Kentucky, uh, right? Doris Swift [00:30:54 – 00:31:50] That was so— yeah, I, yeah, I didn’t forget to mention that. That was really cool that we only live, what, maybe 25, 30 minutes from each other here in Florida. And then I was at the Christian Products Expo with my book where booksellers and bookstore owners and stuff come in and, you know, look at all the different books that authors have, you know, new books that are out and all. And you were there, and yeah, and I got to meet you. You were with— I think you were with Susan when you came up to the table, who owns the Christian bookstore locally, who has had us as authors there locally to sign books and stuff. So it— yeah, it’s amazing how God puts us together. And, and then to the link with Monica, because you both were going to— I think you were going to a different campus location, right, of the church where she was. We had that author event, which was really fun. Doris Swift [00:31:50 – 00:31:51] It was so fun. Sarah Snyder [00:31:51 – 00:32:25] Yeah, that was right before I published, and that was my very first speaking opportunity. So I feel like since then and even now, I’m just continuing to grow. And thank you for helping me at that interview feel comfortable. it was easy, I think, to share, which sometimes I have— I’ve had to learn, I’ll say, because I like to think my own thoughts or share on a quiet platform. And I feel like really, for whatever reason, it wants me to share my story. And I think it’s in the end so people can know him. Doris Swift [00:32:25 – 00:32:25] Yeah. Sarah Snyder [00:32:25 – 00:32:35] It’s not about me, about MS. So that would be part of my purpose, I feel like, is sharing him and his love for you. Doris Swift [00:32:36 – 00:33:14] Amen. Amen. And I love that that’s what this book turned out to be, you know, and not only in the book but your life, how you live your life and how you share about, about Jesus. But that the last chapter you felt compelled to write about the invitation, that it’s free for everyone. Jesus is knocking open the door, you know, of your heart. And, and so, um, Yeah. So Sarah Jean Snyder, this has been an amazing, um, conversation, and I would love if you could share how the listener can connect with you and how they can find your book and more about you and Jesus. Sarah Snyder [00:33:15 – 00:33:43] Thank you. Um, my book is available. Yeah, absolutely. Jesus, well, he’s anywhere. He lives in your heart, and if you just ask him to hear you, he will. Um, so thank you for that opportunity to say that. Um, But my book, you can find it at hesaid saga.com, or it’s a few places locally, Halifax Hospital and Novelties Bookstore. Um, Amazon has it as well, and I appreciate getting the word out. Sarah Snyder [00:33:43 – 00:34:15] That last chapter, The Invitation, uh, the Lord kind of put it on my heart, and I had written it, and it wasn’t an addition of the book. The book was already in the process of being published. And the invitation, I just knew the Lord had me write it, but I didn’t know. So the chapter before, I didn’t know, and this, I didn’t know that I was gonna turn into someone that really knew my purpose of life, or my fierce calling is to share the Lord’s love for people. Doris Swift [00:34:15 – 00:34:15] Mm-hmm. Sarah Snyder [00:34:16 – 00:34:34] But yeah, um, got the last edit back from the publisher. I thought, that’s what this is for. And I added the I Didn’t Know chapter and the invitation. So sometimes you don’t know what the Lord is going to do with what he’s calling you to, but we don’t, we don’t have to know. We can trust that things will make sense later. Doris Swift [00:34:34 – 00:35:23] Yeah. And no matter what kind of phone call you get or what kind of diagnosis or what news you get, uh-huh, that might not be good or seem good, God is good and he does work all things together, which I know sometimes can sound trite or whatever, you know, when people hear that. But it’s true. And you, you are sharing the love of Jesus with others through this journey. And I think this is so powerful and encouraging, and mainly so that his light shines. And that even when we think something is over, it’s not over. Just like the example of your book, like, no, it’s not over. Jesus and the invitation is what’s going to be in the end of this book. Doris Swift [00:35:23 – 00:35:25] So it’s like, yeah. Sarah Snyder [00:35:25 – 00:36:01] I have an audiobook version in process, and my mom reads her foreword, and then my brother— we haven’t actually continued all the way through the recording process yet, but my brother is going to read my dad’s quotes, and then I’m narrating the rest of the story. So, wow, I feel like it’s great family blessings throughout. I mean, just reading my mom’s forward, I was crying myself in my own story. But yeah, it’s great to see what the Lord does. And I just want to say, uh, if you are okay with it, a very quick prayer publicly for our listeners. Doris Swift [00:36:01 – 00:36:02] Yes, I would love that. Sarah Snyder [00:36:03 – 00:36:24] Dear God, thank you so much for continuing to be with both Doris and I throughout this recording. We just ask that you are with our listeners and that whatever message you you want them to hear, they hear. And I see it as, dear God, please let the listener know they are loved. In Jesus’ name, amen. Doris Swift [00:36:24 – 00:36:57] Amen. Thank you. Thank you for that. Somebody listening today needed to hear that prayer, needed to receive it, like you were talking about receiving, um, needs to receive that and the love of Christ, and that God’s love is unconditional and we don’t have to earn it. And, you know, it’s by grace through faith that we’re saved. And so that is just so important and how it shines through in your message. So thank you again for being on the show. It was so great to have you. Sarah Snyder [00:36:57 – 00:36:58] Thank you so much. Doris Swift [00:36:59 – 00:37:12] And I know that whoever picks up this book is going to be encouraged by the message that Sarah shares. And it, it’s Sarah Jean Snyder. I didn’t say Jean at first, and I love that you’re Is that part of your first name or your middle name? Sarah Snyder [00:37:13 – 00:37:33] Jean is my middle name, and it’s pretty prevalent throughout my family. My mom’s middle name is Jean, and I had aunts with the name Jean. And I actually, for the first 20 to 30 years of my life, never shared that that was my name. But it, it means something of God’s blessing. Doris Swift [00:37:33 – 00:38:02] And yeah, I love that. I think it’s important. you know, to share our middle names. Like, my middle name is Susan, and I sometimes I forget that I have that name that was given, you know, to me. And so, um, so I love that and just a reminder. So yeah, Sarah Jean Snyder, He Said Saga: The Daughter’s Story. And I’ll have the links in the show notes so you can find it and the website page and all of that. And I’m sure your audio, when that’s completed, you’ll upload the link. Doris Swift [00:38:03 – 00:38:47] To that same website, right? So people can find the audio version. Yeah, and I love that it’s a family thing. I think that’s really impactful, you know, for people to listen and hear because this is a family thing, you know, and some may or may not have earthly families that stand by them through a crisis or a situation. But, but it’s a blessing that you do and that they’re involved in this project as well. So I think that’s fantastic. And friends, I thank you for listening today, and I hope that you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest

Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In this episode, I welcome my new friend Jac Marino Chen. Jac shares her remarkable testimony of being saved by Jesus Christ out of the darkness of abuse, addiction, New Age practices, and the occult. We’re also talking about her new book, Ensnared: Escaping New Age and Occult Practices Through Biblical Truth and Gospel Hope, which is now available for pre-order. From a self-described sorceress practicing ritual magick to discovering true freedom through faith in Jesus Christ, Jac warns of the deceptions of the enemy that can so easily ensnare those seeking to gain secret knowledge and control their own destinies. Our conversation explores the lure of secret knowledge, the deception of New Age philosophies, and the incremental steps that drew her deeper into occultism—including her involvement with divination, alien worship, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. According to Jac’s media info about her book, “A growing number of Americans believe in or practice the occult. This includes tarot card readings, Ouija boards, astrology, and visiting psychics. Even some professing Christians believe there is no harm in dabbling in such practices.” It’s also concerning how New Age and New Thought practices are seeping into churches–sometimes much like a slow burn. A key theme that emerged was the prevalence of occult practices in modern culture and even the subtle infiltration of New Age beliefs into everyday life and the church. Several points were raised, including the deceptive allure of practices like divination, manifestation, and the use of crystals, as well as the importance of discerning truth through God’s Word. This episode not only shares her compelling testimony but also provides wisdom, encouragement, and biblical insight for anyone seeking hope or answers amidst spiritual confusion. 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways Testimony of Transformation:One concept discussed was the slow and incremental way spiritual deception can take hold, leading Jack from childhood trauma and confusion, through self-described sorcery and ceremonial magick, to seeking real truth at her lowest point. She vividly described how searching for “secret knowledge” and a sense of control lured her deeper into darkness—until reading the Bible for herself changed everything 05:22. The Allure of Forbidden Practices:The discussion explored how practices like the Law of Attraction, crystals, divination, and certain spiritual rituals mirror biblical language but twist its meaning. Several points were raised, including the cultural glamorization of magick and how even mainstream environments now promote such practices as harmless or empowering 10:00. Truth Wrapped in Lies:A key theme that emerged was how spiritual counterfeits often mix just enough truth to appear harmless, making discernment essential. The conversation emphasized reading Scripture in context and not building beliefs or practices on isolated verses taken out of context 39:28. Hope for the Hurting & Advice for Families:For those concerned about loved ones drawn into New Age or occult practices, the message was clear: do not underestimate the power of prayer and faithfully sharing the gospel, even if a person seems resistant at first. Jack’s own turning point came through persistent, loving truth from her grandfather and others 43:55. New Book Release:Jack’s book, Ensnared: Overcoming the Darkness of the New Age and Occult with the Light of God’s Truth, is now available for pre-order. Link to her recent post on Harvest House: 5 Biblical Truths for Reaching Loved Ones Involved in the Occult 🤝 Connect with Jac! You can connect with Jac at https://www.jacmarino.com and find her book here: https://ensnaredbook.com/ https://ensnaredbook.com/ Jac Marino Chen was saved by Jesus out of a past of abuse, addiction, New Age practices, the occult, hermeticism, ritualmagick, and deep depravity. She is passionate about exposing the darkness she formerly pursued while pointing to freedom throughfaith in Jesus Christ. When not serving at church or doing occult outreach on her YouTube channel, you can find Jac writingworship music with her husband under the name Jac and Josh Music. 🙏 Your Story Matters As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris

Hi Friend, Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s episode, Doris sits down with Shalene Roberts, a part-time homeschooling mom of five, writer, small business owner, and author of the heartwarming children’s book Bruce the Brave. Shalene Roberts is passionate about helping women cultivate grace-filled homes and anchor their families in Christ. Together, they delve into her new book, When Mothering Is Hard and No One Sees: Where Gritty Meets Glorious in God’s Eternal Plan for Moms, which originated from a viral blog post inspired by her personal journey navigating the unseen challenges of motherhood. In this candid and faith-filled conversation, Shalene Roberts opens up about leaving a career as a magazine editor to focus on her family, her struggles with identity and feeling unseen, and the profound lessons God taught her through seasons of difficulty. The episode explores the crucial roles of abiding, prayer, and rest in a mother’s spiritual journey, the power of intercessory prayer, and the reality of spiritual warfare facing families today. Doris Swift and Shalene Roberts also discuss how the Great Commission starts right at home, encouraging moms to see their influence as lasting Kingdom work with multigenerational impact. Whether you are a mom in the trenches, a grandmother, or a woman mentoring the next generation, this episode offers encouragement, practical wisdom, and a powerful reminder that God sees you—and the work you’re doing truly matters. 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways Pray Abide Rest Motherhood IS Kingdom Work: The Great Commission isn’t just for the mission field—it’s right in front of us, in our homes, as we disciple our children. Our legacy of faith can ripple through generations. Spiritual Disciplines for Busy Lives: Shalene Roberts shares practical ways to abide, pray, and rest—even with a full house. Small, intentional moments with the Lord make a big difference. The Power of Prayer and Perseverance: Prayer moves mountains in the spiritual realm. Whether your kids are under your roof or wayward, your intercession is powerful—even when you haven’t yet seen the fruit. If you’re seeking encouragement in your calling as a mom or mentor, I highly recommend connecting with Shalene Roberts and checking out her beautiful, gospel-centered book! JOIN THE MILLION PRAYING MOMS SUMMER BOOK CLUB! Featuring Shalene’s book! 🤝 Connect with Shalene! You can find Shalene and all the things talked about in the show at shaleneroberts.com, including her book and you can also find the audiobook version here: https://www.amazon.com/When-Mothering-Hard-One-Sees/dp/B0FV9Z6PMW/ SHALENE ROBERTS is a part-time homeschooling mother of five, writer, recreational photographer, and small business owner. Driven by a deep desire to draw women into a life-changing relationship with the Lord, she seeks to inspire women to anchor in Christ, nurture grace-filled families, and foster life-giving homes. Her work has appeared in an array of outlets, including Her View From Home, Motherly, the Thrive Moms Exhale Bible study, and a variety of other publications. Shalene is also the author of the heartwarming children’s book Bruce the Brave and the founder of Lily & Loom Vintage Rugs. 🙏 Your Story Matters As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris

Hi Friend, Welcome back to Fierce Calling! In today’s heartfelt episode, Doris sits down with her dear friend and sister in Christ, Cheri Fletcher, to discuss how to navigate grief conversations, honor precious memories, and find purpose through life’s deepest losses. After the loss of her daughter Annie in 2023, Cheri created Beyond “I Don’t Know What to Say” Grief Cards, a resource designed to spark meaningful conversations and keep memories of loved ones alive. Together, they talk about the importance of open communication in grief, and how your God-given purpose endures even as your roles in life change. Whether you’re walking through grief or supporting someone who is, this episode offers encouragement, practical tools, and a powerful reminder: our purpose in Christ is eternal. 💡 Episode Highlights & Key Takeaways Grief shouldn’t be silent: Open dialogue, even with simple questions, can bring incredible comfort to those mourning. Sometimes, just asking “What has this week been like for you?” means more than “How are you?”. Everyone’s grieving journey is unique: Cheri’s experience highlighted that roles in life may change, but our purpose—to glorify and magnify God—remains eternal. Support can be simple and brave: Reaching out, mentioning a loved one’s name, or just showing up with a kind gesture makes all the difference. “Communication doesn’t have to be complicated, even if grief is.” Our roles may change, but our God-given purpose stays the same If you or someone you know is walking through loss, check out these conversation cards shared at cherifletcher.com, and let’s be intentional about supporting each other. 🌻 #GriefSupport #Purpose #FierceCalling #Connection #Legacy #Faith 🤝 Connect with Cheri cherifletcher.com and find her Beyond I Don’t Know What to Say grief cards. Don’t forget to enter the discount code “Welcome 10” for 10% off! And that’s evergreen! A quiet place in grief community Raise the Sail: Annie’s Hallmark Dream Realized Cheri Fletcher is the creator of Beyond “I Don’t Know What to Say” Grief Communication Cards—a gentle tool designed to open the door to meaningful conversations that bring comfort, connection, and the sharing of stories that keep precious memories alive. Her prayer is that these cards help others move past silence and into presence. She holds a simple but profound belief: grief is complicated, but communication doesn’t have to be. Cheri and her husband, Todd, moved to Cleveland, Tennessee, in 2020 after nearly 30 years in Washington. They are grateful parents of two married sons and their wives, and they carry the memory of their cherished daughter, Annie, who passed away in 2023. After Annie’s passing, Cheri’s work deepened as she began giving language to the lived experience of grief. Drawing from her own journey through loss, change, and faith, she now walks alongside others who find themselves asking, “Now what?”—gently helping them move toward “What’s next?” with hope, honesty, and a spiritual game plan for the unexpected. Through her writing, speaking, and community, Cheri reminds others that while our roles may change, our purpose is eternal—and that even in life’s hardest moments, we are not holding on alone… we are held. She holds a simple but profound belief: Grief is complicated. Communication doesn’t have to be. 🙏 Your Story Matters As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Conference, Tea, Christmas Event, Workshops, Retreats? I have a few dates still available in 2026, and booking for 2027 – 2028! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Screenshot Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Transcript Doris Swift [00:01:55]:What is threatening to steal your joy? What is it that feels so heavy right now that you could barely stand? God has a plan and his plan is to surrender it. Surrender it to him. It might be a prodigal, it might be a relationship, a marriage, something with your job. So many things. We have so many amazing blessings, but there are so many things in our life that threaten to steal our joy. I’m Doris Swift, author of the award winning six week Bible study, Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. And it helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within. Doris Swift [00:02:40]:Using personal and biblical stories I share, how you can identify your joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within and share the joy with others. You can do it on your own or with a group. If you’re looking for a Bible study for this summer, check it out, friends. Surrender the joy stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. It’s available on all the online retailers. It’s time to take your joy back. Welcome back to the show. Doris Swift [00:03:13]:Today I’m excited to welcome my good friend and sister in Christ, Cheri Fletcher. We are going to be talking all about something that you are going to want to listen in and you’re going to love what she’s created. They’re called Beyond. I don’t know what to say. Grief communication cards. And she designed them to spark meaningful conversations that keep precious memories alive. And that is amazing. After the loss of her daughter in 2023, Sheri now helps others navigate life’s transitions with faith, reminding them that while their roles might change, our purpose is eternal. Doris Swift [00:03:51]:And that is a very, very important truth for us to remember. She is wife to and they have two married sons and love the wives too, that, that they chose that God sent to them. And I just, I love these cards. We’re going to talk more about it and hear more about Cheri’s story. I love how, how the cards say grief communication cards were inspired by my journey to foster meaningful conversations and heartfelt connections between grieving families and their supporters. So that is beautiful. Cheri, welcome to the show. It’s so great to have you. Cheri Fletcher [00:04:28]:You forgot to mention that we were roommates. Doris Swift [00:04:31]:Oh, that’s right. We roomied together. Is that a word? Roomy? Cheri Fletcher [00:04:35]:It’s fun. Doris Swift [00:04:36]:We room together. Cheri Fletcher [00:04:38]:Roomy together at a conference. Yes. Doris Swift [00:04:40]:That was really great time to spend together and we got, we talked into the night and so it was really, really great. And so I’m just so thankful for you and I got to see again last year. That didn’t work out well for me because I had, you know, very major tooth issue and could not attend most of the retreat that we were at. But, but I still got a hug. Cheri Fletcher [00:05:01]:Oh, it was so sad. Yes. It was great to see you. And it’s. Thanks for having me today. What a treat. Doris Swift [00:05:07]:Yes. So I would love if you would share with our listeners today a little bit about your story and, you know, the cards that you created, which kind of falls into the question of where you’re taking action, where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Cheri Fletcher [00:05:25]:Yes. Well, thank you very much. You know, my tagline, our roles in life will change, but our purpose is eternal. That’s been my tagline even before my daughter passed away. So now a lot of times our calling becomes, you know, our. We live out our calling. Right. And I’m, I’m learning that very actively. Cheri Fletcher [00:05:46]:But our daughter Annie, she was my firstborn and only daughter, and she had her master’s in social work, and she was also a singer songwriter in Nashville. And she told us at age 12 that she was going to live in Nashville. We lived in Seattle, Washington, for 30 years. And she, yeah, she was singing. She started writing her songs when she was about 2 years old. I would put her in timeout and she would go and start singing out loud about why she was upset in her timeout. And so she would sing why it was unfair and why she shouldn’t be in time out, and she would sing her woes. And so she started, you know, her singing songwriting journey early on. Cheri Fletcher [00:06:34]:And but at 12 years old, she said, I someday I’m going to live in Nashville. That’s what I’m going to do. And she did it. She got her masters and a week later took a job in Ohio because it was closer to Nashville. And within four, five months of that, she got a job in Nashville and moved. So she did it, and she was out there in 2019. And then in 2020, my husband’s job took us to Tennessee. And so we were able to move to Tennessee. Cheri Fletcher [00:07:09]:And one of our sons who was in school brought him with us as well. And then our other son stayed out in the Northwest for a while. Now he’s out here, too. But anyway, our daughter, In August of 2023, it was August 11, called and said, mom, I’m well, she hadn’t been feeling good, but at age 29, you know, trying to get them to actively see a regular doctor, she had mentioned just not feeling that great. But she was really busy Working on getting her own business license and doing social media and photography for other people in the. In the music industry. And she’s an amazing photographer as well. So she would go. Cheri Fletcher [00:07:56]:She. Her boyfriend was a singer, is a singer songwriter. So she would go to these concerts with the musicians, take their photos, and help them run their social media. So she was getting her business license and she was too busy to go to the doctor, Just too busy. And she would say, well, I’m just. I’ll take care of that. I’m just. In a couple months, I’ll have my license and I’m going to be good and I’ll go see a doctor. Cheri Fletcher [00:08:19]:But she would talk about stomach aches and whatnot. Well, on August 11th, she called and said, mom, I am actually coughing up some blood. And so I told her to meet me at the hospital Vanderbilt. And 12 days later, she passed away. It was a crazy two weeks. They thought she had pulmonary hypertension, and they were treating her for that. But that was a Friday that she went into the hospital. By, by. Cheri Fletcher [00:08:49]:By Wednesday, she was on ecmo, which is, you know, in a very, you know, it’s life support. And her oxygen was so bad that they couldn’t intubate her. They couldn’t run the tests they wanted to run. So they were trying to treat her the five different ways you treat pulmonary hypertension. And she wouldn’t respond to any of them. And what those days bought us were the ability to fly our one son out and my other son. It bought us time to spend time with her, not knowing that it was our last time, but it bought us that time. And they finally thought, well, we’ll just have to do a lung transplant because these aren’t working. Cheri Fletcher [00:09:34]:And on the 21st, they said, well, we’re going to get her ready for a lung transplant. And so they started all the transplant procedures. And on the 22nd, they said, we’re going to do. Now we’ll do a full body CAT scan to make sure she’s a good recipient. And then the Evening of the 22nd, they came in and said, there’s a mass on her ovary that we’re. We don’t know what that is. We’ll have to do a biopsy on that. So. Cheri Fletcher [00:10:02]:But they couldn’t do a biopsy the normal way because they couldn’t put her to sleep to do a biopsy because her oxygen was too low. And so they did one from the outside going in. And that was on a. I don’t know if that was the Tuesday night or the Wednesday morning. But she ended up passing away Thursday morning, the 23rd. And we didn’t get the results from that biopsy for about almost three weeks. And it ended up being colorectal cancer that had metastasized to her ovaries, got into her bloodstream and had filled her lungs. So it wasn’t the pulmonary problem, it was the cancer that had just filled her lungs. Cheri Fletcher [00:10:47]:And so it was a type of cancer that they say it’s kind of like a match. Once it’s, once it, you strike it, it just fills you up. And even if they had found it, they think it’s about 12 months. Even if they had found it 12 months earlier, they would have just said, we’re really sorry, you can’t even treat this. So I think it’s. If you’re going to look for a silver lining, good that she didn’t know that she was just going, going, going. And, and then she, she passed away on a Thursday and she got her business license on a Monday. So she made it to Nashville and she made it to self employment and she has songs out on the, on the itunes. Cheri Fletcher [00:11:31]:So she, she did it, she got, you know, she did it. But yeah, she was just a, a real driven little gritty girl. And so the cards, you know, when someone passes away, one of the phrases you hear is I don’t know what to say. Yeah. And you know, now as in your experiencing with your, your mom, there’s, there’s people that, you know, grief is an, is a hard thing. I think in our Western culture that we just don’t know how really. Well, there are other, other cultures that really do do lament and grief. Well, I don’t believe we do. Cheri Fletcher [00:12:14]:And there are people that don’t even address it. They would, they just are so scared of what to do with it because they don’t want to say something wrong that they just completely don’t say anything. Doris Swift [00:12:22]:Yep. They avoid it. And, and it’s interesting that you do say other cultures do it better than us. And I think, you know, I can see how that can be true. But you’re right because it, people feel uncomfortable because they don’t know what to say. And then oftentimes you all have probably experienced people even pulling away from you. Is that true too, Cheri? Cheri Fletcher [00:12:46]:Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. You know, I think child loss is, it’s a different kind of scary because it’s not a natural order. And you know, people will say, oh, I can’t imagine what you’re going through, and actually you are imagining it. It’s the PA pain that you can’t imagine, and you don’t want to imagine. It’s painful to lose a parent, it’s painful to lose a spouse, but the, the pain of losing a child is something that you just. It’s just not something. Cheri Fletcher [00:13:17]:So when someone says, I can’t imagine, I think you actually are imagining it. It’s. It’s the pain that you just can’t go there. And so I tell people I’m probably the scariest person in the room. When I walk in, I see people go, oh, in their minds, oh, oh, that’s her. Like, oh, what do I say? I don’t know what to say. And they’re so scared to say something wrong. So. Cheri Fletcher [00:13:45]:So we were coming up on the one year, I call them anniversary and you know, I have two boys and at the time they were newlyweds and our middle son had actually. He and his wife got married three months after Annie passed away. And in general, getting boys to talk Doris Swift [00:14:04]:is hard, for sure. Cheri Fletcher [00:14:06]:In general, you know. Yeah. How was your day? I don’t know exactly. How are you doing? Fine. And so we were, we said, you know, for coming up on the one year, we wanted to go somewhere as a family and just have some time together and be together on the one year. And I said to my boys, hey, I do want to sit down as a family and just say, hey, how. How is you? How was the year? I mean, we talk all the time, but let’s take a moment to reflect on how the year is. Has. Cheri Fletcher [00:14:41]:Has it been. Now, my boys are used to me writing all the, you know, I, I taught their church classes for years and I wrote all my own curriculum. So they were probably going, oh, no, mom’s going to write a lesson plan. You know, and they’ poor. Their poor wives or newlyweds are probably like, I don’t know what to do. So I, one day I thought, you know what? My boys like card games. And I. And I had kept. Cheri Fletcher [00:15:08]:As a writer, I, I keep all the cards that people, when they actually write something really nice, I keep it. And I had also screenshot really nice text messages and questions. People asked me that. I thought, these are really considerate and brave. To ask me a question is brave. And so I started keeping track of them in a document. So I opened up my document and I just took a bunch of the questions and put them on, on like I put them on staples and had them printed on index cards and just took them on this vacation and just had them on the. On the table, and anytime we’d sit down to eat, you could pull a card and answer the question. Cheri Fletcher [00:15:47]:And it just kind of start a conversation. And of course, I would answer the question different than each of the family members. So you learn something different about Annie. And, you know, one of the questions is, is there a secret that say that you can share now? Doris Swift [00:16:00]:You know, I love that question. Cheri Fletcher [00:16:02]:It’s kind of funny. Good. Doris Swift [00:16:04]:Yeah. Cheri Fletcher [00:16:05]:And so people started asking, I want those cards. Doris Swift [00:16:09]:It’s really cool. Cheri Fletcher [00:16:10]:And I, I, Yeah. And it’s just. I, you know, I’ll tell people. Grief is complicated, but communication doesn’t have to be. And I think as a griever, if you’re a griever and you’re listening, I really want to say, give those who say something stupid grace. Because at least they approached you. At least. At least it tried. Cheri Fletcher [00:16:34]:I mean, it’s better than people that don’t say anything. And. And they’re trying to relate to you and they’re trying to say something, and it was brave of them to approach you. It took a lot. So even if they say, you know, I’m sorry you lost your daughter, I know how it feels. I lost my dog. You know, just not quite. But you know what? They’re trying to relate. Cheri Fletcher [00:16:57]:It’s not. It’s. Doris Swift [00:16:58]:It’s their heart. Cheri Fletcher [00:16:59]:It’s not the same. And don’t say that to somebody. Yeah, it’s not, you know, if you’re listening, don’t say that to somebody. But if someone says that to you, try not to be offended. Just realize, okay, bl. I’m new to the south, but I’m learning. Bless your heart. Bless your heart. Doris Swift [00:17:17]:You. Cheri Fletcher [00:17:18]:You approached me, and that was brave. And I’m. I’m. I, you know, I appreciate that. Doris Swift [00:17:24]:That’s very beautiful and very encouraging and helpful in so many ways. And also, thank you for sharing the story about Annie’s health, you know, journey and what happened. Because, yes, people are so unaware that age doesn’t matter in a lot of these things. We think, like, oh, well, and even the doctors don’t send people for colonoscopies until they’re older. And so. So it’s important to be in tune to that. But it’s. It’s just a great reminder that we, you know, we just don’t know what tomorrow will bring. Doris Swift [00:18:03]:And so I love how you want to communicate. And the fact being that you have realized, too, in the ways that your. Your other, you know, your sons, they have their own grieving journey, you Know, and so. And because they like to play card games, that you design these that way and to pull cards, you know, when you all sat down for a meal, there it’s a beautiful box, and inside you just pull it open, and inside there’s these wonderful cards that have these questions on them. And I’d love to read some of the questions. And I, you know, I saw too, there’s a nice. I. I know Annie loves sunflowers, and you design these with sunflowers. Doris Swift [00:18:52]:It’s bright and sunny and cheerful looking and. And she just a beautiful, beautiful girl and talented and lovely, and her music is living on, you know, and she continues to bless people with her beautiful voice, and people can check that out. And, you know, at the end of the show, you can tell people how they can find those things too. But I love this one here is very helpful because a lot of times we’ll ask people how they are. And so in this card, it says, instead of asking, how are you? Ask what has this week been like for you? Yeah, I think that’s really good. And so how does that prompt you? Like what. In what ways does that help you? Cheri Fletcher [00:19:47]:Yeah, well, when someone asks, you know, how has this week been for you? It tells me they actually want to know, because how are you? Is just kind of a hello, and I’ve got to go. Like, I don’t have time because we’re so used to how are you? Doris Swift [00:20:01]:Good. Cheri Fletcher [00:20:02]:Yeah. Doris Swift [00:20:02]:It kind of goes together. Yeah. Cheri Fletcher [00:20:05]:Yeah. And but when someone says, hey, how has this week been for you? To me, that means they really want to know because they care. Yeah. And so you’ll tell them, like, for, for me, you know, we just celebrated bereaved Mother’s Day. And then you’re going to go into Mother’s Day. And so those are. Those are heavy. And so you’re trying to focus on my, my boys and what they want to do for me. Cheri Fletcher [00:20:32]:But then also, then you’re also remembering the times, you know, when you had your daughter there. And so there’s. There’s waves. They call them emotional ambushes. It’s like, you know, you’ll be doing good and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you’ll just get a memory or you’ll see. I was driving into this parking lot and this car went by, and the. The person driving looked so much like her, so much like Annie. It just, it. Cheri Fletcher [00:20:59]:It just like catches you for a minute. And so, you know, just to share those moments with somebody. And I’m learning, too. There’s a book called the Body Keep Score, that this really has affected my. My pain levels, my anxiety levels, my. I’m jumpy. And so when you talk about it, for me personally, it’s like getting that out and it’s like, oh, that felt kind of better to share that. And so when someone says that, how has this week been for you? It’s like, that’s a gift. Cheri Fletcher [00:21:34]:Thank you and thank you for asking for it. Doris Swift [00:21:37]:And I love it too, because it kind of, I don’t know, for lack of better way to say it kind of chunks it down. Because even if you say, how are you feeling? Or how are you doing? It’s kind of the same as how are you? Because that’s just so broad and like, you know, where this kind of breaks it down into like, like, what got you through this week? You know, how did you do this week? You know, what things happened this week? You know, and so it’s a little bit easier to look at it in terms of a time frame versus overall. So I think that’s really, really great. I love that. And, and a lot of these are about the person who is grieving, and a lot of them are about the person who they’re grieving for, which I think is also very important. And that a reminder that you want to talk about the person that you loved. Yeah. You want to do that? Cheri Fletcher [00:22:39]:Yeah. I saw a thing on social media that says you post pictures of. You post new pictures of your child. I post the only what I have or the ones I have. And yeah, you know, just so many people see us posting pictures of our deceased child and they’re like, oh, why are they posting that? It’s like, well, because there’s still our child. We still, we. We don’t have, going forward memories. You know, we don’t have the, the newer memories, but we still have what we have in our heads. Cheri Fletcher [00:23:15]:And so, yeah, we still want to talk about them just as much as, as everyone else does. And these, you know, these cards are not just for the family that lost a loved one. They’re for the supporters. Because if. If you’re uncomfortable and you’re going to see me and you’re like, oh, I might see Cheri at this event. I’m just going to ask her how her. How has your week been? Or, hey, what was, you know, what is something that Annie did? Like, a friend called me one day and she’s like, I just took my son driving on his. For his, his permit. Cheri Fletcher [00:23:47]:It was terrifying. What was it like to teach Annie to drive? I Mean, how cool is that? Yeah. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:23:53]:And what a blessing, too, that when someone asks you a question that’s just obviously from one of your cards, it’s like you’re seeing the fruit of what God’s doing through these creative cards that he’s given you. And, you know, I love to, you know, these other questions, they’re all so amazing. And I like this one here. What was the one I was going to bring up here? So what do you wish your friends or family knew without you having to explain it? Cheri Fletcher [00:24:28]:Yes, that I do want to talk about her. I think people are like, oh, I don’t want to. You know, she seems happy, so I don’t want to say anything. And I’ve been to several situations where not one person has brought her up, and that’s very painful to meet. And as a grieving person, I’m very careful of. Of an event that I’m at, and I don’t feel appropriate. Like, if I came to your event, I would not bring up my daughter because we’re there to celebrate your event. And so I, I’m not there to come and, you know, come in and bring my, my issues in there. Cheri Fletcher [00:25:09]:But if someone at your event said, this was a beautiful wedding, I bet you miss Annie. How sweet is that? Yeah, no, but. But I’m not going to come to your wedding and go, I sure wish my, you know, my daughter would have been married, because that makes you feel bad. That ruins your event. But if you acknowledge this was a beautiful event, I bet you miss Annie. That’s just kind. And it doesn’t make me sad. It acknowledges that I’m already sad. Doris Swift [00:25:40]:Yeah. Cheri Fletcher [00:25:41]:Yeah. And so I think there’s just. I think in this world there’s gotta be grace on my end and on your end. Doris Swift [00:25:49]:Yeah. Cheri Fletcher [00:25:51]:And. And just for the griever to realize how awkward it is for. For someone else, and then for someone else to realize that I’m just dying for you to, to talk about. And the cards aren’t just for a lost child. I mean, you know, you’ll. You’ll sit down with someone and ask and you’ll hear a story about your mom you might not have known. Doris Swift [00:26:13]:That’s true. And it’s just, you know, these are just so precious. And, you know, I love how you said that you. You’re not going to go to an event and talk about it, but it would bless you if people would mention her name and in the way that you had described. You know, I bet you miss Annie. You know, it kind of just Helps remind you that people love you and are thinking about you and want to acknowledge the beautiful life that she had here on earth and that she continues to have eternally with Jesus, which is so important. Another open door for faith conversations. Cheri Fletcher [00:26:55]:So, yes, you know, a beautiful verse is he who started a good works in you, he’ll continue it until he comes. That means the work he started in your mother and in my daughter, he’s still working those things like the calling that he gave your mom, the calling he gave you, the calling he gave me, the calling he gave Annie, he’s still going to live out. So the message, the calling he put in your mom is through you and through the things she said and the people she impacted, that calling is going to continue until Jesus Christ, until the day of Jesus Christ, not till she dies. The calling goes on. Doris Swift [00:27:38]:Wow, that’s beautiful. That is such a beautiful thing, you know, to think of it beyond, you know, what we usually would take that verse as for its meaning and that there’s a legacy and there is fruit that continues, you know. And so because we have life in Christ because of him, that we’re alive in Christ, and because we know that if we look at like something that here on earth, like for example, if a tree is cut down, it doesn’t continue to bear fruit, but if we go from this earth to Jesus, the fruit still continues to abundantly blossom and bloom in ways that we would never even imagine. So that is beautiful and so encouraging. And I hope that really does bring a lot of encouragement and hope to someone who’s listening right now that really needed to hear it, because I don’t think that people hear this or listen in by any accident because, you know, perhaps they have wanted to reach out to a friend, but just hasn’t done it yet because they just don’t know what to say. I mean, sometimes we know things that we can do, like, I’ll bring them a meal, or I will watch, you know, their other kids for them, or I’ll walk their dog for them, or, you know, different things that we can do to help them. But as far as conversation, it’s. It’s just hard. Doris Swift [00:29:19]:And I think we just overthink things a lot. Cheri Fletcher [00:29:24]:Do you overthink things? You know, even before Annie passed away, I. I didn’t like it when someone told me to hang in there. I used to go, like, is that comforting? Like, you know, we’re like, when you’re having a bad day and your parents go, well, hang in there. I’m like, I’m already having a bad day now you want me to hang? Like, how. You know, how is that comforting? I’m going to. I can only hang on for so long, then I’m going to fall. And, you know, and then after Annie passed away, I was just like, no, don’t tell a griever to hang in there. But be. Cheri Fletcher [00:29:56]:But I’ve always told people, no, the Lord tells us over and over and over in the Bible that he’s holding us. He’s holding us. We are held in there. We are held in there. We are not hanging in there. God is holding us in there. And if you can just find ways that people. Through a phone call, through a text, through someone showing up and walking your dog. Cheri Fletcher [00:30:17]:I had a lady one day knocked on my door and she handed me my dry cleaning because I had for, you know, I’d forgotten I had dry cleaning. And she’s like, I went to pick up my dry cleaning and I saw, like, a whole bunch of yours, so I just picked it up. Yeah, that’s God holding you in there. God is like, I see you, and I have a friend, literally every day since Annie has passed has texted me, and all she says is, held. Doris Swift [00:30:43]:Yeah, held. Cheri Fletcher [00:30:44]:That’s it. One word, held. And that just means I’m thinking of you. You are. You are on my mind. You are held in there. You are held. Doris Swift [00:30:52]:Like a touch, you know, like a touch from heaven. You know that people are thinking of you. And, yeah, it’s so true. And especially around the harder days, the harder dates, you know, that’s important, too. And, yeah, so this is really, really hard for people. But yet these cards will help open up communication and will help people reach out and then know what to say, you know, and so these cards, like, here’s another one. What’s something you wish people would ask you about? Right now, you’re asking the person, what should I ask you? So you’re kind of opening up that doorway of conversation. Cheri Fletcher [00:31:46]:Yeah, I, you know, people. What do I wish they would ask me right now? I’m very lucky because of these cards. I have a lot of people making sure they’re asking me questions. But, you know, it’s Mother’s Day. What’s a great Mother’s Day gift that Annie gave you? What is something, you know, funny? Annie, you know, singer, songwriter. She was great with words. She would write me silly little poems, or she would, you know, on. On Instagram, on hers or on mine, she would post a song, you know, and so those are fun questions. Cheri Fletcher [00:32:19]:What did they do for your birthday. I always, you know, I make sure I put people’s dates on my calendar. So when I look at it, it’s like, okay, this is the date that they. This is. This was their loved one’s birthday. And I would just text them and go, hey, you know, what was their favorite dessert for their birthday? What was their favorite meal? What was their favorite. What would they have wanted for their birthday this year? They were going to be, you know, 30. What would you have done for their 30th birthday? Doris Swift [00:32:44]:Yeah, it is important and. And put things on the calendar so you remember, too, because you’re remembering them and then you’re remembering the person that you want to reach out and touch. And. Yeah, I think that’s so important. I have a sweet, dear friend at church. Their family had a great loss, you know, of a child. And it. It started and happened actually on our anniversary when we were away. Doris Swift [00:33:12]:And so that date is something we have in common. And so every year, you know, I just send her, like, a heart, you know, and, you know, thinking of you, you know, we have that thing there. And so it’s. It’s hard, but it’s, you know, to see how God brings people through, the grieving changes. It doesn’t go away, but how God can do things and have you create things like this for people. Cheri Fletcher [00:33:42]:Thank you. Doris Swift [00:33:43]:Community is so important. Cheri Fletcher [00:33:45]:It’s so important. Doris Swift [00:33:46]:Yeah. And so I would love if you could share any last thoughts that you have about anything that you feel on your heart that God wants you to say, and then tell us, you know, how can the listener find these cards? How can they find it? Because another thing, too, that I meant to mention earlier is, you know, in this day and age where we have our phones that we can video and take pictures, where we didn’t, you know, always have that handy before, and there’s a lot of videos that you’ve shared different special times, like when Annie wanted to surprise you with something or, you know, precious memories of that. And so when we see that, we can also get to know her a little bit more, you know, and kind of be part of that, which is very, very special. So I love when you do that. And so, yeah, so. So tell us what God has on your heart to share to someone that’s listening and how we can, you know, get these cards out to people. And. Cheri Fletcher [00:34:46]:Thank you. I wanted to go back to the tagline, especially with your. With your platform on purpose and calling. You know, our roles, we get so. Which is natural. We get very invested and caught up in the roles that we have, whether that is the job. We’re in a position. We have a title. Cheri Fletcher [00:35:10]:We have. Those are roles. And in each role we bring our calling. But our purpose. Our purpose in life is to glorify and magnify God. That’s. That’s our purpose. That’s your purpose. Cheri Fletcher [00:35:27]:That’s my purpose. We’re all. We all have the same purpose, and that is to glorify God. We do it through our calling, which is different. Your calling is different than my calling. But our purpose with that calling is to glorify God. But we take our calling, which will never, ever change, into the roles we have. But the rules end, and they change. Cheri Fletcher [00:35:53]:And so many people, when those rules end, believe that their calling is over. And you’ll hear people say, I’ve got to find my purpose. I’ve got to find myself. And I’ll ask them, what role in your life just ended because you don’t feel relevant, you don’t feel validated. And that’s what the enemy wants you to think. But our roles in life will end, but our purpose is eternal. And so that’s why, I mean, God says, the work I created in you, you know, I. I will see it through. Cheri Fletcher [00:36:24]:Yeah, just give me. Glorify me through it, and I will see it through. Even when you aren’t here, I will see it through. And so my role as Annie’s mother is no longer active, but she. I will see her again. My. The purpose of my role was eternal. And so whether you’re in a season that you, you know, you’ve lost a job, you’ve lost a marriage, you. Cheri Fletcher [00:36:52]:You’ve lost something, and a role has ended. God will. Might give you a season of wandering in the wilderness. You might have a season of waiting. But the calling he’s given you, what he’s put in you, the good works that he planned, the masterpiece that you are is there. It’s an eternal purpose. And so that role is over, but your purpose is eternal. And I just, you know, it doesn’t make the pain go away, but he’s there with you. Cheri Fletcher [00:37:24]:He. He’s going to take that calling into another role, and he’s going to see it through. And so I just. That’s what I. And, you know, that’s what keeps me going, is just knowing, okay, God, you know, plus, I’m too stubborn to let the devil even think he has a chance. But just, yeah, just to know, you know, my. My roles in life will change. They’ll end. Cheri Fletcher [00:37:48]:But my purpose Is eternal. Doris Swift [00:37:50]:Wow. Cheri Fletcher [00:37:50]:That’s. That’s the message. I hope people. Doris Swift [00:37:53]:So beautiful. Thank you. It’s so encouraging. And Annie’s birthday’s this month too. I have it on my calendar. Cheri Fletcher [00:38:00]:Yes. May 20th. Thank you. Yes. Yes. And so my website’s so easy. Cheri Fletcher. Cheri with a C. Cheri Fletcher [00:38:09]:Cherifletcher.com. everything’s on there, the cards and information. Way to find me Annie. Her music’s Annie Lauren. And so really quick. I’ll try to make this quick when I don’t know if you remember my space. Yeah, like 19. Cheri Fletcher [00:38:28]:I don’t even know. Well, in our house, the rule was you. The. We didn’t even have laptops in their room. They couldn’t even have a laptop till they went to college. So there was a desktop in the kitchen. And when MySpace came out, Annie was so excited. But I said, you. Cheri Fletcher [00:38:44]:You can only be on it when I’m in, when I’m home. And I had it locked down. And you can’t even have a friend I haven’t met. Well, one day she said, mom, this girl, her name is Jordan, she friended me. But, mom, please, she’s from now, she wants to be a singer in Nashville. She. She wants to be all this. And I’m like, I don’t know. Cheri Fletcher [00:39:00]:That could be a man posing as this girl. And I said, well, I’ll say yes, but I. I gotta be on, like, I gotta see. Well, her name’s Jordan Mallory. She is a very well known country singer. When Annie got to Nashville in 2019, Jordan moved to Nashville too. And they met and so they were friends for like 10 years on, from MySpace to Facebook. And Annie wrote a song with Katie Reed. Cheri Fletcher [00:39:27]:Katie Reid’s an author and she wrote a book. Annie wrote a song for her latest book called A Bavarian Summer. And her. And she wrote this song with Katie. And last summer, Katie’s book came out, and Annie’s boyfriend and three of her best friends recorded it. And one was Jordan Mallory. And so I just love how the Lord, I tell people, look back on your grief journey and see all the ways the Lord himself went before you and put these people and things in place. And so the song’s called Raise the Sail and it’s, you know, on itunes and all that. Cheri Fletcher [00:40:05]:But her boyfriend was able to take out of the little recording that Annie made on her cell phone. And at the very end, you’ll hear Annie because she played it for Katie. And then at the end she was, I don’t know, something like that. And it’s on the Recording. It’s so special. So that’s. Yeah. So they can find that. Cheri Fletcher [00:40:24]:And I, I just still keep her social media up on Annie Lauren music, so thank you for asking. Doris Swift [00:40:29]:That’s so powerful. Cheri Fletcher [00:40:31]:And your listeners, if your listeners type in Welcome 10, they’ll get 10% off. And that’s Evergreen. Doris Swift [00:40:38]:Wow. Cheri Fletcher [00:40:38]:So. Doris Swift [00:40:38]:And that’s on your website, right, for the cards? Cheri Fletcher [00:40:41]:Yeah. Doris Swift [00:40:42]:That’s wonderful. Wow, that’s amazing. And, yeah, so I’m so glad that we were able to speak Annie’s name all throughout our show today. Cheri Fletcher [00:40:51]:Thank you. Doris Swift [00:40:52]:And, and I also want to mention, because the family that I was talking about at church, I want to mention Carter’s name because Carter, Carter was precious little guy. And, and, and so we’re, we’re believers and we have the hope, you know, in Christ. And so thank you so much for sharing your story and all the ways that people can be supportive of those who are grieving and those who are grieving to be able to navigate, you know, conversations and communication and with grace. And so I thank you so much, Cheri, for being on the show, and I hope to have you back on. Cheri Fletcher [00:41:31]:That would be wonderful. Thanks for having me. Doris Swift [00:41:33]:I just loved it so much. And friends, be sure to check out these cards. Grab some of these cards. You need them, you can give them, you know, to different organizations that would benefit by that. I know we have grief share at our church, so I’m going to share it with them. And so, yeah, just reach out. I’ll have the links in the show notes so you can find Cheri and you can find Annie and all those things that we talked about in the show. And I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action, where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Doris Swift [00:42:13]:Until then, friends, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Hi Friend, Welcome to this new episode on the Fierce Calling podcast! We’re so glad you’re with us—whether you’re a regular listener or a new friend stopping by. 🎙️ This Week’s Episode: An Honest Caregiver – Ann Coker’s Reflections of Love, Loss, and Legacy On episode 223, Ann Coker returns to share from her new book, An Honest Caregiver: Facing the Reality of My Husband’s Dementia. Ann Coker cared for her husband, Bill, for 14 years after his Alzheimer’s diagnosis. She opens up about the raw, real, and holy work of caregiving—the struggles, the moments of failure and frustration, and how God met her in the valleys. You’ll hear how journaling became her lifeline, what it was like to face grief, and how she was encouraged to dig deep and be fully honest by her daughter (a nurse and key partner in Bill’s care). Ann Coker also shares precious memories of Bill’s faith, stories of family teamwork, and the profound hope and comfort she found knowing Bill is with the Lord. 💡 Episode Highlights The power of journaling through hard seasons Honesty in caregiving and why it matters Navigating hospice and end-of-life moments How faith, family, and community can help Leaving a legacy through shared words 📚 Ann’s Book & Podcast An Honest Caregiver is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and directly from Ann Coker (signed copies available). Bill’s sermons live on through the “Words of Endearment with Bill Coker” podcast—find it on any major platform! 👂 Listen In & Be Encouraged If you or someone you know is a caregiver—or may be one in the future—please share this episode! You’ll find hope, practical wisdom, and the reminder that you are not alone. Listen to Episode 223 now [on our website]! 🤝 Connect with Ann Email: [email protected] Podcast: “Words of Endearment with Bill Coker” (new episodes post on Wednesdays) ANN L. COKER is the widow of Bill, a former pastor and professor. Ann received a BA in English fromAsbury College, Wilmore, KY, 20 years after graduating from high school in Mobile, AL. She is theauthor of Journey with Bunyan’s Pilgrim and a contributor to The Woman’s Study Bible. She has servedin three pro-life agencies. She continues to compile her husband’s messages for publication. Currently,Ann lives in Indianapolis, IN, with her married daughter and husband. The Cokers have four children,ten grandchildren, and fifteen great-grandchildren. Ann’s hobbies are making greeting cards, reading,sewing, and working on crossword puzzles. 🙏 Your Story Matters As always, remember—your journey, your fierce calling, and your honest story can comfort and encourage others. Where can you share your experiences this week? Grace and peace,Doris Host, Fierce Calling Podcast What Threatens to Steal Your Joy? Check out Surrender the Joy Stealers: Rediscover the Jesus Joy in You 6-week Bible study rooted in John 15. You can find more info at https://dorisswift.com/book/ Let’s Stay Connected! Find my free resources including Fear Fighting Bible Verses, Simple Tips for Sharing Your Faith, Surrender the Joy Stealers, Step Out of Your Doubt and Into Your Calling ebook, and more on my dorisswift.com homepage! Love Fierce Calling? Did you know that following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser or Apple Podcasts helps others discover the show too? I would so appreciate it, friend! Need a Speaker for Your Next Women’s Event? Now Booking for 2026! Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let’s talk about me speaking at your next women’s event… Thanks for Listening! I hope this episode encouraged, inspired, and challenged you to cultivate community, live and walk in the value, purpose, and worth God gave you, and take action where your passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. If you’re looking for a speaker for your next women’s conference, retreat, luncheon, or workshop, reach out and connect with me on my speaker page at https://www.womenspeakers.com/florida/edgewater/speaker/doris-swift Let’s have a chat about your next event! Stay tuned for more amazing content and remember to check the show notes for all the links mentioned. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are grateful for your continued support and encourage you to embrace the unique gifts that make you magnificently you. I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who is taking action where her passion, compassion, and conviction intersect … Until then friend, have a blessed week, and I’ll talk to you soon. With love and joy, Doris Transcript Doris Swift [00:00:10]:Hey friends, welcome back to the Fierce Calling podcast where I am talking with guests who are taking action where their passion, compassion and conviction intersect which is their Fierce Calling. And you are listening to episode 223 and if you’re new around here, I want to warmly welcome you. I am excited about today’s episode. I invite back my guest Ann Crocker. She was a previous guest on the show and she had a book come out since she was last on called An Honest Caregiver Facing the Reality of My Husband’s Dementia. She was caregiver to her sweet husband Bill for 14 years and she shares all about her journey and just as the title says, an honest journey, an honest telling of her experience. And you know, some of us have been caregivers and some will find ourselves in that role again sometime in the future possibly or we know someone that is currently a caregiver. Please share this with them. Doris Swift [00:01:14]:I think it will really encourage them. And so friends, we’ll get into the show in just a minute. But first I also want to remind you that I would love to have a chat with you if you are looking for a speaker for your next women’s event conference retreat, whatever you have going on. And so I am booking. I still have some availability in the latter part of 2026 and also into 2027, so reach out to me at daraswift.org or on my speaker page at womenspeakers.com and let’s have a chat about that. So I know if you stick around you will be encouraged, inspired and challenged by the message that Ann shares. So so thank you so much and stay tuned. What threatens to steal your joy today? When the struggles of this world drain us dry and wring us out, our desert mentality becomes fertile ground for the enemy’s lies to grow. Doris Swift [00:02:09]:We place our trust in what we see and feel instead of in the God we know and love. Surrender the Joy Stealers is a strategic six week Bible study rooted in John 15 that helps women rediscover the overflowing, ever present Jesus joy within that fills them, empowers them, and ripens the fruit God produces in their lives. Using personal and biblical application, women will learn how to identify their Joy stealers, surrender them to God, reawaken the joy within them, and share that joy with others. Pick up your copy today. It’s perfect for individual or group study. You can find it on all the online retailers. Surrender the Joy Stealers. Rediscover the Jesus joy in you. Doris Swift [00:02:57]:It’s time to take your joy Back. Welcome back to the show. And today I am welcoming back a return guest that I really enjoyed having on the show quite a while ago, my friend Ann Crocker. And we are talking all about caregiving and we are also talking about her book that came out since she was on the show last, which is an honest caregiver facing the reality of my husband’s dementia. This is a very beautifully written book. It is filled with stories and her real life journey. It’s raw and real and she shares a lot of hope and encouragement, but also doesn’t hold back and sharing the struggles. And so it’s to, it’s to help others in this journey that they might find themselves in. Doris Swift [00:03:51]:Ann, welcome back to the show. It’s so great to have you on. Ann Coker [00:03:55]:Good to be back. I appreciate the opportunity. Doris. Doris Swift [00:03:59]:Yes, thank you. It is a beautiful book. You had asked if I would endorse it and I put my endorsement here in the book. And I think that it’s just something that is a wonderful not only story, memoir, but a tool and a resource for those who, you know, need, need that or know someone who does. Because nowadays it’s just such a reality in our lives, you know. So, you know, and I always say how you’re taking action, where your passion, compassion, conviction intersect, which is what God’s been doing in your life. So if you could share, you know, a little bit about the story and then some about the book and what you hope that your readers will take away from it. Ann Coker [00:04:47]:I guess my passion for years has been journaling and that’s what has kept me grounded in faith, to show on paper what my journey is. And it also then helped in composing and collecting the stories, the journey with the caregiving. So for 14 years, Bill had dementia, diagnosed as Alzheimer’s disease. And so I knew that throughout all of that that I needed compassion, which was sometimes hard to, to give. But the Lord helped me. And then I was always confident about his conviction of faith. He would even have these little talks every now and then where he would include do what’s right and do what’s good. And it was like he was preaching again because he was a professor and a Bible languages and also a pastor in his last church for 19 years before he retired. Ann Coker [00:06:10]:So journaling was probably my biggest passion and led me to compose the book. Doris Swift [00:06:20]:Yeah, that’s really important. And I know we’ve talked about journaling before on the show and how healing it can be and also helpful because when we write things down now, now not everybody might feel like they want to do journaling or they feel like they’re not a writer or anything. But when we record things, it’s important. Like God feels it’s important to record things and record events and so that people can see his faithfulness. And when we do that, we can put our prayers, our hopes, our thoughts, our dreams and things on paper. And, you know, sometimes we’ll look back and find things that we’ve written, you know, even years ago, and think, wow, look how far the Lord has brought me and what he has brought me through and what he’s still doing, you know, his. He’s still working. And so when also we have the opportunity to turn some of the journaling into a book, into a resource for other people, it not only then blesses us and maybe our family, you know, to read the things that we write, but be able to share that with others that need to hear hope and healing and find healing, you know, in what they’re going through. Doris Swift [00:07:41]:So kind of refresh us a little bit about that. I think we talked about that last time my daughter. Ann Coker [00:07:46]:We lived. We moved to live with her and her husband. And she’s a nurse. And so she was a big part in the caregivers giving advice. Sometimes I didn’t want to hear at the time, but then knew that it was right, it was coming from her. And especially during the couple of weeks of Bill’s in-home hospice, she was a big part of that. So. And. Ann Coker [00:08:16]:And after I had the first draft written of the book, she went through it and she said, mom, you’re not being honest. That’s going to be your title. You’ve got. You’ve got to deal. Dig some more about your feelings and let that come to the surface. So she was a big help with the caregiving, but she was also a big help with editing and getting the book ready for publication. Doris Swift [00:08:47]:Yeah, that was really amazing too, how God gave her the gifting and the knowledge through her nursing. I love how she brought out the fact that you had the word honest in your title, so you really needed to live up to it. She, like held you accountable for that. So that was really good. That was really good. And it is very. A very honest book. And when you read through it. Doris Swift [00:09:13]:So if you would maybe want to share parts of the book that you feel like would bless the listeners. I would love if you would do that. Ann Coker [00:09:22]:Okay, I’d be glad to. Doris. The book is. Got four parts to it, pretty simple. The beginning, how it started, the messy middle, how it continued, and the ending, when it turned and then a final chapter on my grief journey, focus on the future, which became a new chapter in my life. But I’ll read a a few paragraphs from the book. This was from the chapter Focus on Faith. And my husband’s name is Bill. Ann Coker [00:10:06]:Bill may have believed he no longer had an influence in personal relationships. Yet friends wrote about his positive impact lives at church and in stores. Bill readily spoke to strangers, adults and children. He would go over to them and talk to them. Hello, how are you? People related back to him as he smiled. The main path of contributing influence became delegated to his published books and online podcast. It’s why I continue to pursue these avenues, to keep his influence going. Wisdom remained current in those messages he delivered in the church before retirement. Ann Coker [00:10:51]:During dementia, Bill’s prayers were about pleasing God. Bill delivered what Becky and I called talks. I referred to that earlier, although we do not unders did not understand most of what he said. We could count on those two repeated topics, doing what’s right and doing what’s good. Those phrases were heard when he talked either to me or other members of the family. And I also repeated those when Bill was asleep. He would talk in his sleep as if he were preaching and then reading Scripture. I found those same mandates in both the Old and New Testaments. Ann Coker [00:11:34]:In Bill’s podcast, he also repeated those phrases. I can only conclude without a doubt that Bill’s faith was always, had always been based on what was right and what was good. Doris Swift [00:11:48]:Beautiful. Can you repeat those phrases again for us that you found in. In the. Ann Coker [00:11:52]:Doing what’s right and doing what’s good. Doris Swift [00:11:55]:Doing what’s right and doing what’s good. Wow, that is like straight right to the point and some sound biblical truth right there that Bill continued to share. And then, like you said, he was talking in his sleep as if he was preaching. So that. That is precious. And you had compiled a lot of his preaching, his sermons over the years and put that together right in a book. And we talked about that last time. Tell us a little bit more about that. Ann Coker [00:12:26]:Well, when he was in the pastorate, I would say, you need to write a book. You need to write a book. And he would say, no, there are too many books out there. I don’t need to write a book. So when he got the dementia, he really couldn’t argue with me about it. So I started collecting his sermons for books. He has one on the Ten Commandments, one on the church, and then a collection of sermons, a collection of prayers from the. From the services, from them. Ann Coker [00:13:06]:As a pastor. So that. That composed another book. And then there was a short book on Advent about four people that were important during that time. And the one on Joseph, when he preached that, he got a lot of good comments, so he still gets good comments on that. So then my daughter suggested that people needed to hear him preach. And she says, you can use those taped messages and do a podcast. And I said, oh, I don’t know how to do a podcast, and here you are doing one. Ann Coker [00:13:47]:And she said, well, we know people who can help. So her son does the mix, and then we have a tech guy here in town that does the recordings. The only part I do is select what sermons are going to be on, and I write the intro and outro. And then we chose someone with a man with a very nice voice to do. To be the host and to do those. Read those intros and outros front and back of Bill’s sermons, and they’ve gotten good response, especially from people that knew him as a preacher. Doris Swift [00:14:32]:Yeah. Wow, that is. That is really a blessing. And he just had no idea when he was preaching these messages, how they would continue to live on, you know, far beyond him going to meet with Jesus, you know, that. And that’s what we would hope, that we would glorify God and that the messages and the words through his word that we speak out would, you know, reach the ends of the earth, basically. And through a podcast, you can reach so many more people than you would otherwise, you know, and so that. That is powerful. And when we get closer to the end of our talk today, we can share how people can find that and some other things. Doris Swift [00:15:18]:But I would love to first have you talk a little bit about what it was like to share the hard parts, because sometimes, you know, we want to be honoring. We want to, like, talk about God and how he helps us through and bring hope. But it’s okay when we go through our struggles to be honest about the fact that things are hard. And so how is that for you to share that? Was that healing? Was that. You know, how was that for you to share the valleys? Ann Coker [00:15:49]:One of the concerns I had was that people that knew Bill, knew him as a preacher or a professor, how were they going to react about this different man? Because he was. He was different during dementia. And so I was concerned that if I. I didn’t want to say anything to disrespect what he had been. So I. But I knew that the dementia had. I call it the problem or the struggle and the. But not Necessarily the cause, but I knew that that had a big impact on who he became. Ann Coker [00:16:39]:He was rarely violent or angry. There was a couple of times he didn’t know who I was. One time he came over to the side of my bed and said, get out. It was like there was another woman in bed with him. And. And he didn’t name people anymore. He. The great grandkids would come and visit. Ann Coker [00:17:05]:One of our great granddaughters came and listened to him talk. And I asked her, I said, well, what did you learn about him? She said, he can talk. He went, going. So I wanted to. For it to show Bill, but I knew that the caregiving part had to be my story. And. And I wanted my fears, failings, frustrations, all of those to be evident. So I would. Ann Coker [00:17:45]:If I got angry with him, I’d go in the bathroom and ask God to forgive me. And I remember one editor that went through it. She says, well, what were you doing when you were in the bathroom? And I says, well, I was sitting on the toilet. And she says, well, say that this Doris Swift [00:18:03]:is a real honest caregiver. Ann Coker [00:18:05]:Yeah. So I said, I. I needed to show that there were times that it was frustrating and hard, but God was always present to forgive and to get me back on track and do what was right and do what was good. Doris Swift [00:18:26]:Yeah. Ann Coker [00:18:26]:For him. And so that. That encouraged me because that was the purpose of the book. I wanted it to help other people. I wanted it to be a benefit for other caregivers, either those who were in the process of caregiving or could see evidence that that might be their journey down the road. And I also knew that in home care was not possible for every situation. I mean, Bill, we had our daughter a nurse, and we had a space in. In a home, and we had help with physical things. Ann Coker [00:19:15]:Her husband Paul, helped a lot. There was even one time when we had a grown man staying with us for a little while. And Bill fell down and I couldn’t get him up, and he wouldn’t let me touch him. And so I called upstairs and I said, Tom, can you come and help? And he came and he first just looked at Bill and talked with him and told him what he was going to do and lifted him up and asked me where I wanted him to go. And I said, well, to bed now. It’s been too long. And so it was. God provided people as well as just good sense throughout of all of that and showed me that, you know, we had those kind of helps available. Ann Coker [00:20:13]:But like, we. It had end up with two weeks of in home hospice care. And that was excellent. We had an excellent hospice group. But I know that’s not possible for everybody. So it’s just, you know, this was my story, not saying everybody has to do it the same way. Doris Swift [00:20:36]:Yeah. Ann Coker [00:20:37]:And even in. At the end, when Bill died, there were family members here. Our son and his son were here. And so when our. We were sitting around the dining room table and Bill was in the bedroom, and our grandson said, well, I need to get back home. So Wes went into the bedroom and came back. He says, I don’t think he’s breathing. So we all went over there, and my. Ann Coker [00:21:11]:My daughter took her stethoscope, and she also listened to him and just did everything that she could to see, to make sure. And then we called the hospice nurse to. And. And the funeral home because we had decided. I’m going on and on here. Doris Swift [00:21:35]:Oh, please. Ann Coker [00:21:36]:We had decided. We had decided that the funeral and the burial was going to be in Terre Haute, where we once lived at the former church. And so I called the funeral home director and he. He said, and this was. I don’t know, it’s probably nine o’ clock at night. He said, there’ll be two men come soon. So they came, and I had a package of the clothes that I knew I wanted for them to put on. And I decided that he needed to look like the preacher. Ann Coker [00:22:17]:So I had the suit with tie and everything. So. But that. And. And that was an interesting part of that, Doris. After Bill, after Becky said, he’s gone, I went over to him and I felt his cheeks and they were cold already. It was that quick that he moved from this, from earth to heaven. I mean, he just, you know, he was already gone. Ann Coker [00:22:48]:So that comforted me, really, and I was not upset that I was not there by his side when he had his last breath. Doris Swift [00:23:00]:Thank you for sharing that beautiful experience, you know, that you had. And, and I love how you were saying that it was your story, you know, that your. Your story to tell in your experience and, and the human side of it, you know, dealing with something that can be very stressful and very difficult and challenging. It’s okay to have those moments where you just have to go sit on the toilet in the bathroom and say, you know, God, please forgive me or help, you know, help me get through this. Help me. Help me to be able to do this, because we can’t do things like this in our own strength. And even Jesus said, you know, in John 15, he tells us, you know, that apart from him, we can do nothing. We need to abide in him. Doris Swift [00:23:46]:And so you sharing that it is the honest caregiver take, which was your experience and it, I believe it will help a lot of people, a lot of caregivers who might struggle a lot with guilt about, you know, the way they really feel and to kind of give them permission to feel the way they really feel. Because, you know, being human, it’s not easy and it’s definitely a hard journey, but it’s a holy journey. And, and I do love that that comes out too in your words and also how you share that not everybody’s journey is going to look the same. And the fact being that some are not able to have their loved ones stay at home because they might not have the help that you had. And that’s okay, you know, whatever works best and however the Lord leads to what is best for that particular family. And also how you shared that you weren’t actually in the room when Bill went to be with Jesus, but you were still comforted knowing that he, it was just that quick from, you know, earthly to glory, you know, and it’s that quick. And I, we had a similar experience like with my dad. We were right there with him for, for days on end. Doris Swift [00:25:11]:He actually was in a VA hospital at the time and the VA hospital was about an hour away. So they had an on site home there on their campus where families could stay and so they can be close to their loved one and. But dad waited until it was like just the close girls in the family were there and he waited until we went to, I don’t know, just freshen up, get coffee. And it was kind of rare that we would all leave the room at the same time. Usually we would rotate and people, somebody would always be there. But this time, no, it was not that way. And that’s when it happened. But then with my mom, she also passed away in the hospital and that was just this past January. Doris Swift [00:26:05]:So was. It wasn’t very long ago, but we were actually with her when she took her last breath. And that was a different experience altogether and, but also a holy, holy experience that way. But I also love how you brought up the, when you called the funeral home because I don’t think, you know, a lot of times we talk a lot about that. But I know like in our experience too, when we called, like for example, when my dad was in the hospital, he was in the VA hospital was an hour from us. You know, we’re on the east coast of Florida and, and he was actually in the facility in central Florida in the Orlando area. And they, you know, didn’t hesitate. They sent, you know, their car to go pick him up there and took care of all of that. Doris Swift [00:26:54]:And then with mom, same thing, although she was in a closer hospital. But, you know, and someday I might have somebody on the show to get their perspective of how they have ministered to families in that way, because it certainly is a relief to just say this. This is where we are. And they go, okay, we’ve got this, you know, we’ll take it from here. So was that your experience too? Or did you. Did you. How did you choose the particular funeral home or was it one that you’ve used before for other family? Ann Coker [00:27:32]:We. Before we left Terre Haute to move to Indianapolis, we had made plans at that funeral home for both Bill and me had chosen our caskets and chosen who was actually going to officiate at the service and the details. So I was. And it was a funeral home where Bill had been for members of the church. So he was familiar with the director. So that. That made it easy. I know it wasn’t long after we moved to Indianapolis, Bill kept saying, we need to make changes because here we are in Indianapolis. Ann Coker [00:28:16]:We ought to have the grave here. And I said, it’s not going to make any difference. And so I checked with our four children and they said, no, just keep it where it is. Let’s keep things the same. Because they weren’t. All of them lived elsewhere and they weren’t planning on, you know, visiting. Doris Swift [00:28:37]:Yeah. Ann Coker [00:28:38]:The grave site often. So. So we had already chosen the funeral home, and I had. When Bill started the two weeks of hospice care, I notified the funeral director that it wasn’t going to be long. And so that part was easy. Yeah. Two men, middle aged men, came with suits and ties on. I was kind of surprised. Ann Coker [00:29:10]:Here it was 10 or 11 o’ clock at night and they were in suits and ties and they asked if I wanted to leave the room while they put Bill on the gurney. And I said, no, it’s fine. And I gave them the bag of clothes and they left. My second son, John, was with me. And so after they left, there was that empty hospital bed from hospice next to my bed. And I took a shower, went to sleep easily with that empty bed. So I knew the Lord took care of everything else. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:29:50]:Wow, that is really encouraging to hear it. And I know sometimes people might listen to this particular topic that we’re talking about and think, oh, that’s, you know, that’s so heavy to talk about, but this is part of life. And, you know, unless Jesus comes back tomorrow, you know, we. We are dealing with these things. This is a reality of life. And it is a blessing to our families to have things prearranged so they don’t have to make decisions at the time of their life. That is so difficult. And it, you know, that’s really helpful to get our affairs in order. Doris Swift [00:30:26]:And, you know, as the Word says, that we make our plans, but God directs our steps, so we go through and do what we need to do to make arrangements or, you know, do our, you know, our financial business. Get that all in order and all. And it just helps our family to be able to grieve without having an added stress of making hard decisions and trying to think, well, I think they would have wanted this. Or, you know, and it also helps so that families don’t have to have disagreements over things that really shouldn’t be in the mix at that point in time, you know, that it should just be all settled. And I know we were talking about funeral homes, and there was. There’s one in town that we’ve used. I mean, we used it for my grandfather, my grandmother, and then my mom and dad and, you know, several other friends and all that. You know, so it’s just something, you know, I think that we felt like we wanted to carry on with the same place. Doris Swift [00:31:26]:And, you know, it is definitely a unique line of work to be in, because that’s what you’re dealing with every day when you go to work. And, you know, in ways that they can be compassionate to people and encourage them and ease their minds about things and make arrangements so that, you know, oh, they. They order everything for you and the death certificates and all of that. They notify Social Security or whatever. You know, they take care of these things that we don’t really think about, but yet we’re glad we don’t have to think about it because they take care of that for us. But anyway, so. And. And I’m really glad that this turned into a book. Doris Swift [00:32:02]:It. It is a beautiful book, and like I said, I endorsed it. And I would like to actually read my endorsement, if that’s okay, Ann, because it kind of sums up my takeaway from it. So let me just put on my glasses here and read that. So. All right, so an honest caregiver facing the reality of my husband’s dementia. All right, I think this is. Yep. Doris Swift [00:32:23]:This is mine right here in Ann Coker’s. An honest caregiver. She shares her journey as wife and caregiver to the love of her life, Bill, who ultimately passed away from Alzheimer’s disease. It is a story of love, faith and resilience, capturing moments and memories that both inspire and challenge us to trust God in every season of our lives. Anne’s memoir brings to light the everyday struggles and joys of caring for a loved one, sharing her real and raw emotions and frustrations with a touch of humor that I love so much in your book that there’s a touch of humor. I appreciated Ann’s candid retelling of their day to day experiences, both good and bad, because it helps us understand the gravity of a caregiver’s role and the impact it makes on the lives around them. Although not all caregiving experiences are the same, caregivers will find common threads and glean wisdom from what Ann learned. She shares Bible verses that brought comfort and how with the help of the Lord and her family, she found the strength to navigate the unknown road ahead. Doris Swift [00:33:27]:I highly recommend this book to anyone who is a caregiver or might find themselves in that role one day. The reader will find encouragement, practical advice, and a friend who wants you to know you are not alone. And it was my honor to write that. And it was just an honest reviewer’s take of this story. Ann Coker [00:33:48]:I think the picture captured. The picture on the cover captured what dementia is like. It’s kind of on the right side. It’s like what was before dementia and what was during on the left side. What was during dementia. I really appreciated giving that photograph. Doris Swift [00:34:06]:It is beautiful and it definitely depicts it in such a powerful way to have that on the cover of your book. And I think it’s good too for people who might not know much about what to expect with dementia and Alzheimer’s. And I had learned a lot more than I knew because my mom was diagnosed with dementia, but not with Alzheimer’s. And I. I just didn’t know how that played. But it’s true that not all dementia is the same. There’s different forms, right? Ann Coker [00:34:38]:An Right. Yeah. Yes. Even Alzheimer’s disease has several different kinds. So they’re not all the same. And. And the personality and the person themselves reflect on what the difference is. If you don’t mind, I’d like to read one other little passage about the word loss. Ann Coker [00:35:02]:This was about my grief journey. I thought deeply about the word loss. It’s what people say when expressing sympathy. I’m sorry for your loss. Admittedly, there’s a loss on my part. Bill is no longer beside Me in our queen size bed or sitting in the passenger seat of the car as I drive to church. Church and errands. No longer is he pointing to our clock on the wall to alert me it’s meal time in church. Ann Coker [00:35:31]:I now sit in the third seat from the aisle where Bill sat, leaving two seats for Becky and Paul. Bill, however, is not lost. I know where he is. I do not need to find him like reclaiming a lost object. He is with his Savior and Lord rejoicing in heaven. And one day I will join him. Doris Swift [00:35:56]:Beautifully written, beautifully said, and so encouraging for someone who’s listening, because you’re right, that is what we say or what is said to us. You know, I’m sorry for your loss. And, you know, it’s so funny. I’ve even noticed that I seem like I’ve said that so many times lately that when I go to, like, maybe I’ll type it or text it in my phone, you know, just. And usually follow up with a card or a call, whatever. But sometimes people aren’t ready, you know, to have a conversation, but you just want to reach out and touch and let them know you’re thinking of them. And my phone, you know how it gives suggested words as to what you should say or what word you might use next. And it just. Ann Coker [00:36:38]:So. Doris Swift [00:36:39]:It’s just like, I’ve noticed, it knows that it. I’m gonna say that I’m so sorry for your loss. Like, it gives me those suggested words. Ann Coker [00:36:49]:Yeah. Doris Swift [00:36:49]:And it’s like, wow, that is just. I’ve been saying that too much lately. Seems like, but. But, you know, just to let people know, like, you know, when I have friends who, you know, have had a great loss in their life, just to send a text or a heart emoji, maybe on a day that is, you know, a particularly hard day, like a birthday or the day when they passed away, you know, in those days that Just to let people know they’re not alone. And I love that you bring that out, that they’re not alone. And that’s, I think, an important, important message for us always to remember that we’re never alone, you know, and we always had. The Lord is with us, but he puts people in our path and in our lives to encourage us and help us and be with us. And in turn, we can also do that, as, you know, the Word says that when we go through these difficult seasons, you know, and we’re comforted by God, then we can in turn give that same comfort to others who need it. Doris Swift [00:37:57]:And so I Would love, Ann, if you could share any last thoughts that you might want to say to the listener right now. And then also how whoever is listening right now can connect with you and find all of these things that we talked about in the show with. Ann Coker [00:38:15]:The biggest lesson I learned was to be honest about it, not just with myself, but with God and with family members and others that were going through the experience. That’s what’s happening being said from readers of the book. And I can be contacted mainly by my email address, which is al2coker c o k e r gmail.com also Bill’s podcast, and that can be on any, most all servers. And that’s called Words of Endearment with Bill Coker. And it came from the title of his first book that’s on the Ten Commandments. So it’s Words of Endearment with Bill Coker. This went. It’s posted and downloaded on Wednesdays. Ann Coker [00:39:14]:And this week was the last in a series on the book of Ephesians. And next week starts a series on the book of Colossians. Doris Swift [00:39:25]:Nice. Ann Coker [00:39:26]:And I’m really pleased with the people that are a part of that. And I. I couldn’t do it on my own. Doris Swift [00:39:33]:Yeah, well, I know, like, that’s why God’s given us all different gifts and talents so we can work together, you know, as one body, but many members. So anyway, so it’s helpful. We definitely need help with tech and, and things like that. So I think that’s fantastic that your daughter actually suggested that you do that. And you know, what, what are we willing workers? Right? So it’s like, all right, well, we’re willing to do it if this is what God wants. And what a blessing that his words continue to touch listeners, ears and hearts. And that’s just really precious that you can do that. Ann Coker [00:40:11]:This Week is episode 210. So it started before Bill died, and then the tech guys said, do you want to continue this after he died? And I said, yes, let’s keep going. Doris Swift [00:40:23]:Yeah. Ann Coker [00:40:23]:Wow. Doris Swift [00:40:24]:That’. That’s a lot of episodes and more to come. So I think that’s amazing. And it just is a testament to the life and legacy of Bill, you know, and how God used him in a powerful way while he was on Earth. But also even now, you know, that he’s left the Earth, but he’s. He’s in his real home. You know, this is not our real home. We’re just passing through, you know, and so. Doris Swift [00:40:46]:But while we’re here, we have work to do and we have A Fierce Calling and this has been yours. And to share his words and so very precious. But also to share your own words and your own experiences to help others to know that they’re not alone. And you know, to be honest about it because nobody really gets much out of something that isn’t really honest. We don’t want sugar coated stuff. We want, you know, I mean it’s okay to, to be encouraged and watch something like a, a cute fun movie that’s light and uplifting or something like that. But when it comes to real life, we want the real thing, we want the real stuff and we want raw and honesty so we can all, you know, relate and find hope and encouragement through Christ who gives us strength. Right. Doris Swift [00:41:39]:So again, thank you so much for being back on the show. This has been amazing. And I will put in the show notes the, the things that you shared of how people can connect with you and then they can find your book on Amazon. Right, and. Ann Coker [00:41:52]:Right, Amazon. And I found out that Barnes and Noble has it too. Someone left a review on Barnes and Noble and I didn’t know that it was there available there. So there are other ways. I have some copies that I can sign if they want to, if they want a signed copy from me, they don’t have to pay that, but they have to add postage. The, the books are $15 and now I’m adding postage of 450. So if you’re a prime user of Amazon, you won’t have to pay. Doris Swift [00:42:26]:Very true, very true. And then I imagine too that this book has been a great resource for hospitals, you know, and for like other places that might have a lot of caregivers coming through or maybe people who are encouraging caregivers. So have you found that too? Ann Coker [00:42:49]:I’ve, I’ve contacted a couple, but I haven’t received notices yet. Doris Swift [00:42:54]:Leave some copies at doctor’s offices, you know, for people. Ann Coker [00:42:57]:Yeah, I’ve done that. Yeah. Doris Swift [00:42:59]:Yeah, see that’s great. And you never know if people will come to know Christ through these words, that maybe they’re a caregiver but they’re not a believer yet, you know. And then they would find peace and rest and comfort in him in through your book, you know, so that would be great and fantastic. So thank you again, Ann for being on the show and I hope to have you back on again in the future. Ann Coker [00:43:22]:Thank you very much, Doris. I appreciated this time. Doris Swift [00:43:26]:All right, well, God bless you and your ministry and your family and we will talk soon. Ann Coker [00:43:31]:All right, bye. Doris Swift [00:43:36]:Thank you so much for listening today. And I hope what Ann shared really encouraged you. I’m sure that it did. And if you could share this with someone who you think would also be encouraged by what she had to share, because caregiving is hard. It’s very hard. But as I always remembered another guest of mine, Jessica Ronnie, she also speaks about caregiving and has resources for that as well. And she, she says that caregiving is holy work. And I know Ann would definitely agree with that. Doris Swift [00:44:08]:And your story can help to comfort others, just as the Word says. You know, that we are, you know, we go through difficult seasons, but I’m kind of paraphrasing, but that, you know, the same comfort that we receive from the Lord, we can in turn comfort others with. With the comfort that we receive. So don’t forget that, friends, you have a calling. You have a fierce calling. And so I hope that you will pray about where God would have you to share your story. And your grace story is important, and it’s, it’s really about how you met Jesus. So share that with others, every opportunity that you have. Doris Swift [00:44:50]:And if you would like some encouragement on how to share your faith, I do have a resource on my website called simple tips for sharing your faith, and it’s on my webpage, my homepage, so you can check that out, too. And friends, I hope you’ll join me next time when I talk with another guest who’s taking action, where their passion, compassion, and conviction intersect. Until then, friends, have a blessed week. And I’ll talk to you soon.