216. Big Stories, Little Saints — A Conversation with Sarah and Josh Sabey

This week, we're excited to have Bob Rees on the podcast. Bob is a true "long-haul hero" (to use Pete Davis's term) -- a Latter-day Saint who has been studying and writing on Latter-day Saint topics for more than fifty years. To us, Bob exhibits the best of what we have to offer theologically, and practically, to the world. Bob believes that the deepest power of the Book of Mormon, even more than its remarkable origin story, is its ultimate message of love. After a lifetime of serious study and contemplation, he says, the goodness of the Book has simply changed his life. In addition to the profound effect it's had on him, he's also endlessly fascinated by it. We could feel Bob's enthusiasm as he shared ideas for making our reading of the Book of Mormon come alive–for example, by doing midrash—imagining elaborations and spin-offs that help us flesh out the stories we find in the text. In many ways, Bob models how to have fun with scriptures, even as we learn from or wrestle with them—and allow that work to transform us.Bob has taught in humanities and Mormon Studies at UCLA, UC Berkeley, Graduate Theological Union, and other institutions. He's also the co-founder and Vice President of Bountiful Children, which fights child malnutrition worldwide.If you'd like to hear more from Bob on the topic of The Book of Mormon, we'd really encourage you to check out his book of essays A New Witness to the World, which was published in 2020, or The Reader’s Book of Mormon, which Bob co-edited with Eugene England. Thanks as always for listening, and we're excited to share this conversation with Bob Rees.

This week, we’re sharing a fascinating conversation we had with Josh Coates, a computer scientist, entrepreneur, and founder of the BH Roberts Foundation. The BH Roberts Foundation is the non-profit behind Mormonr, a producer of Latter-day Saint media that tackles hard questions about the faith, as well as "LDSBot," an AI-driven chatbot that is able to handle just about any question about Latter-day Saint culture and theology shockingly well. In February of this year, Josh and his colleague, Steven Cranney, published the results of yet another project: a survey of a representative sample of active and former Latter-day Saints that the BH Roberts Foundation conducted. The survey found that among active Latter-day Saints, two "clusters" emerged: 80% of the sample had fairly orthodox beliefs around God, the Church, and the historicity of the Book of Mormon, while 20% expressed more uncertainty and held less traditional views. The survey also integrated questions from Jonathan Haidt's Moral Foundations theory, which attempts to suss out how different kinds of people build their ethical perspectives. This part of the survey found some really fascinating differences here between active Latter-day Saints and former Latter-day Saints that we think could help us understand each other better.We spent some time with Josh talking about the different values and gifts these two clusters of practicing members can bring to the Church. In Josh's view, neither group alone can bring to bear the full gifts of the community on its own: cluster one could help our community grow deep, strong roots, while cluster two could help us branch out, expand, and explore. We're super grateful to Josh, Steven, and the rest of their team for their work on this survey, and to Josh for sharing more about it with us. There's a lot to dig into here, and as always, we hope that discussing differences can actually help see each other with more empathy and love.

We're so excited to have Sarah and Josh Sabey on the podcast this week. Sarah and Josh are writers, filmmakers, and spouses. Their films cover important issues in non-polarizing ways. Their first film, American Tragedy, reached the top ten most watched films on Amazon Prime. Their latest project is called The Book of Mormon Storybook for Little Saints. It's a beautiful 2-volume collection of 50 Book of Mormon stories, adapted for children and their parents. They write that the primary goal of this book is not to teach children a summary of events but is rather, the artful retelling of the stories themselves. We love that each chapter is driven by and anchored to their testimonies, which they have condensed into this single sentence: “these are stories about a real God who loves real people.” --People who are complicated, wounded, and trying, who make mistakes again and again but who are never abandoned. This focus on the characters' humanity and core doctrinal principles in the Book of Mormon reveal the book's fundamental message of hope, or as Elder Kearon put it, the reality that "God is in relentless pursuit of you." In this conversation Josh and Sarah talk about the ways they imagine shame, fear, and even trauma are at play in the lives of Book of Mormon characters we know so well and they point out the broader story arcs and lessons we can learn about vilification, polarization, and tribalism. We learn a little bit about their experience writing the book and how the kind of intuitive reaching we experience in creativity can be a form of worship. You can find The Book of Mormon Storybook for Little Saints at forlittlesaints.com and on audible and we highly recommend them both.

This week we’re joined by our good friend and contributor to Faith Matters, Thomas McConkie, along with his longtime mentor and friend, John Kesler.In many ways, Thomas and John's paths were mirror images of each other until they eventually collided. John Kesler developed an awareness and life practice called IPP or Integral Polarity Practice that has had a profound impact on Thomas's life. You're going hear a little about polarities or fundamental tensions of human development and how in finding the "still points" in these seeming opposites, we can experience a real relief of that tension and a transcendent peace. Both Thomas and John believe that one of the gifts of our tradition is that it has the structure and scaffolding that creates rich, fertile ground for genuine development.  And at the same time, they see that at different seasons of our lives we experience struggle, even struggle around belief. And yet, as John says, in those experiences, we learn that "there's something down deep that's there that can hold us and nurture us." And that these depths can bring us not beyond belief but to the source of belief.This conversation felt so abundant. It felt like a starting place. Thomas and John will be hosting a handful of retreats and events this summer so if you are interested in learning more, you can check out all of those opportunities in the links below.Transformations of Faith CourseAt One Ment: Embodying the Fullness of Human-Divinity,  by Thomas McConkie7-Day Silent Retreat (August 5-12th, 2024):https://lowerlightswisdom.org/classes/7-day-august-silent-retreat-scholls-202410% Discount Code for 7-Day: FM7DAY3-Day IPP Facilitation Retreat (Aug 1-3, 2024):https://lowerlightswisdom.org/classes/3-day-ipp-retreat-202420% Discount Code for 3-Day IPP: FMIPP20Nobody will be turned away for lack of sufficient funds, financial aid available. 

 **Disclaimer that this episode mentions suicide in connection to LGBTQ youth. If you are not in a place to listen right now, you might want to skip this one. If you are, though, we really encourage you to listen on this tough but important topic that impacts so many in our community.**In this conversation, Dr. Jordon and Liz Sharp from St. George, Utah, shared their remarkable and inspiring story of moving from trauma, confusion, and loss to miracles, enlightenment, and strength as an LDS/LGBTQ family. Several years ago—even before they had thought much about this themselves—a tragic event with some family friends resulted in Liz and Jordon receiving strong promptings that God has a deep and abiding love for LGBTQ individuals  and wants them to thrive. Jordon (Vice President of Marketing & Communication at Utah Tech University) and Liz (a registered nurse) eloquently described the mistakes made, lessons learned, opportunities found, and how their family bonds expanded far beyond their expectations after their son Sam came out at the age of 14. Due to what he saw as a lack of resources and support in this space, Jordon eventually helped found the Gather Conference, the largest-ever Christ-centered conference for Latter-day Saint LGBTQ individuals and those who love them. To learn more about the Gather Conference and to find resources for LGBTQ/LDS families, visit liftandlove.org.Liz and Jordon’s family story is near and dear to our hearts at Faith Matters. So often, we don’t have answers to know how we all belong in the family of God; we only have our conviction that we do belong and a willingness to figure it out along the way. Our conversation with Liz and Jordon gets deep into their personal story, including their ongoing spiritual learning and efforts to build conversations about the LGBTQ experience in the Church. We found them to be incredible examples  of how to plow into uncharted territory with humility and a simple trust in one fact — that we are all beloved children of God. 

We’re really excited to share this episode with you. It was with someone we’ve wanted to talk to for a very long time — Deseret Book president Laurel Christensen Day. We knew from afar that she was a trailblazing leader and a thoughtful publisher — and we were not surprised to find that as we got to know her a little bit that she’s a woman of deep faith as well. Uniformly, everyone we have ever spoken with who has had a chance to work with Laurel absolutely loves her.We’ve always been fascinated by Deseret Book — by the unique place it holds in Latter-day Saint culture and the responsibility it has in creating and distributing content that informs, inspires, and even shapes belief. Walking into a Deseret Book and seeing the art and the books and the scripture sets always seems to make us nostalgic for our own upbringings and tradition, even while we’re living it! And Deseret Book is, of course, much more than just a retailer  — they’re a major content producer with business lines in books, music, art, and events. And of course, it does all of this as a part of the larger organization of the Church.We thought Laurel’s insights were incredibly perceptive and thoughtful. She shared with us thoughts on what to do when you make a mistake, even as a leader, or perhaps especially as a leader—with openness rather than defensiveness, and with introspection and searching for the truth in criticism. She also shared a little bit about her story, including her journey as a woman navigating her business career—along with some other insights for women and how advocating for yourself could look. And finally, Laurel was kind enough to share some advice for us at Faith Matters.

This week, we’re bringing you an interview with Kurt Francom, author of a new book titled, Is God Disappointed in Me? Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. It seems to us that culturally, Latter-day Saints don’t usually imagine an angry vengeful God but we may very well imagine a god who is perpetually disappointed with us when we inevitably fail again to live up to our highest ideals. Kurt’s book unpacks what hurts about the idea of a disappointed God and why this belief can be a real stumbling block to our growth. He explores the ways sin is very often a response to woundedness and how understanding these core vulnerabilities can help us to heal from shame instead of hiding or numbing. We've linked to a sweet video Kurt posted of his daughter learning to walk; though she is fumbling and struggling to learn, the video reminds us that as parents, we're not disappointed by this process of growth. Instead, like Kurt's voice in this little video, he was bursting with pride at her growth, joy when she got back up, and excitement that he got to be with her in the journey of learning to walk. Is this what we imagine God -a loving heavenly father and mother feels, when we make mistakes? We think these ideas are so transformative. You can find Kurt’s book on Amazon or Benchmark Books. We also invite you to check out Kurt’s “Learning to walk” video with his daughter, which we’ll link to in the show notes. We hope you enjoy this episode.Is God Disappointed In Me? (on Amazon): https://a.co/d/2soZzs5Learning to walk video: https://youtu.be/nC9CIIXRJS0

We’re excited to bring you an episode with a genuine ‘lift-where-you-stand story’ of a family in the UK. Sam and Jen Norton have served young people in the church for more than twenty years and most recently as FSY Session Directors in London. FSY stands for “For the Strength of Youth”, and refers to the week-long summer events held for youth around the world.As FSY leaders, Jen and Sam began facing difficult questions about how to include and support youth with a range of perspectives and lifestyles. They wanted to affirm the wisdom of the standards set by the Church for youth; they also noticed that many youth were driven away  the fear of exclusion they would experience if they fell short. As a result, many youth would drop out of Church activity before giving a chance to learn what it’s really about.Through prayer, open conversations, deep listening, and creativity, Jen and Sam were taken on a truly transformative journey; they found their way to loving the younger generation more than they thought possible, and learning how to really champion them and their unique spiritual gifts. In short, they believe in believing in the next generation and giving them a more gentle on-ramp to following Jesus and reminds them that perhaps the most important word in the sacrament prayer and baptismal covenant is ‘willing’. Their story will be valuable to anyone working with youth, or who is interested in blending top-down and bottom-up approaches to Church callings.If you want more of what you hear in this conversation, Sam wrote a book about it called Come as You Are: Creating Space for the Rising Generation to come to Jesus Christ. The book aims to be an accessible guide to parents, leaders and teachers and invites us all to rethink about how we support our young people’s faith discovery.

It’s General Conference weekend! Time to dig up the BINGO cards and park yourself in front of the TV with some cinnamon rolls and a Diet Coke or two, to soak in some inspiration and maybe even encounter some discomfort.We thought we’d release a re-edited episode with Patrick Mason that feels really timely.In this conversation with Patrick, we talked about creating what Brian McLaren has called a “four-stage community.”. The “stages” we’re referencing here come from Brian’s book Faith After Doubt, and refer to different stages in which people might find themselves in their journeys of faith. McLaren defines these stages as  simplicity, where faith is straightforward; complexity, where faith becomes somewhat more complicated; perplexity, the stage where questions become more important than answers and previous faith paradigms often undergo massive shifts; and finally, harmony, where the gifts of each stage are finally realized and integrated.It seems to us that the diverse reactions and feelings engendered by General Conference are often the result of being members of a community in which all four of these stages are manifest. Messages that seem to be tailored to members at a particular stage of faith may not resonate with listeners at a different stage. This can feel like misalignment, and it can sometimes feel jarring.In this conversation, Patrick points to a couple of practices that have helped us turn that dissonance we sometimes feel into a gift: for one, being intentional about deeply listening to those we might be inclined to disagree with, and orienting ourselves toward generosity, asking what virtues and values might they be speaking from. Patrick also pointed out there’s a real potential for growth when we choose to stay in relationship with people we disagree with. As Eugene England points out in his essay “The Church is As True as the Gospel,” in many ways, that struggle is the point.Patrick is the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University and the author of several books including Restoration: God’s Call to the 21st Century World. He brought the wisdom, insight, and optimism that he always seems to meld so beautifully. We really hope that you can take what feels valuable in this episode, and use it as we come together in solidarity as a community this weekend, with all our varied life experiences and perspectives to be inspired by and stretched by General Conference.

As Latter-day Saints, we often say that we focus more on Jesus’ resurrection than on His death, and we consider the atonement in Gethsemane as the most sacred event in Jesus’ life. In this episode, we consider a question we don’t think about too often, stemming from this: why have we not cultivated more robust ways to celebrate Holy Week, and all the events leading up to Easter Sunday? Especially when we compare it to all that we do leading up to Christmas? We sat down to talk with Eric Huntsman, a professor of ancient scripture at BYU and author of God So Loved the World: The Final Days of the Savior's Life. Eric has done a lot of work as a scholar to understand the events of Holy Week leading up to Jesus’ death on the cross on Friday, his resurrected visitations on Sunday, and where, as Latter-day Saints, we might place the points of emphasis differently than other Christian denominations. His family has cultivated Easter traditions, complete with meals, activities, and scripture readings, to help them really feel and anticipate these events, and invite a deeper witness of the Savior. By getting more creative with our Holy Week traditions, Eric says we can connect ourselves more deeply with the rest of Christianity while immersing ourselves more fully in a scriptural journey.We hope this episode inspires you to get more out Easter Weekend, which is coming up in just a few days. And for more on this topic, you can check out Eric’s book God So Loved the World at Deseret Book, Barnes & Noble, or Amazon.