Replay: When the Life You Built Breaks Open w/Jen Hatmaker

What happens when the life you built—carefully, faithfully, and very publicly—splits down the middle in a single night? This week on Typology, we're revisiting one of the most powerful conversations we've had on the show—a replay of my interview with bestselling author and cultural truth-teller Jen Hatmaker. Jen, an Enneagram Three with a courageous edge that sometimes looks a lot like an Eight, joined me to talk about her memoir Awake and the "before-and-after date" that changed everything—July 11, 2020— when her 26-year marriage ended and the life she knew cracked wide open. In this conversation, we explore what it means to wake up in midlife: to grief and betrayal, to shedding scripts you never consciously chose, to loosening your grip on approval, and to discovering what actually matters in the second half of life. We also dig into how Threes navigate identity, success, and failure—especially when life refuses to follow the plan. Jen shares how therapy, embodiment work, and radical honesty helped her rebuild—not for optics, but for something sturdier and truer. If you're in a season of change—or if life has recently pulled the rug out from under you—this episode still hits with the same quiet force. Think of it as a hand on your shoulder and a light for the next few steps.     ABOUT JEN HATMAKER Jen Hatmaker is a bestselling author, award-winning podcaster, speaker, and fierce advocate for women living in freedom and agency. With 14 books—including four New York Times bestsellers—along with her beloved For the Love podcast, Jen Hatmaker Book Club, and more, she reaches millions with her signature mix of humor, vulnerability, and wisdom. Her newest book, AWAKE: A Memoir, (released on September 23, 2025), chronicles her raw, real-time journey through the shocking end of her 26-year marriage and surprising reinvention. She lives in a creaky old farmhouse, loves 90s country, and drinks Almond Joy creamer like it's a personality trait. Find her at JenHatmaker.com.

There are some conversations that don't just inform you—they find you. This was one of those for me. In this episode, I sit down with my friend Dudley Delffs—author, therapist, and a fellow self-preservation Four—and what unfolds is less of an interview and more of an honest, unguarded conversation between two people who've spent a lifetime trying to tell the truth about their lives…and sometimes wondering what it costs to do that. We talk about the long journey of being a Four—the early years of feeling different, the instinct to hide parts of your story, and the slow, sometimes painful work of learning how to bring those parts into the light. Along the way, we wander into territory that might feel familiar: creativity, envy, addiction, belonging, and that quiet, persistent question many of us carry: What have I done with my life? And yet, this isn't a heavy conversation—it's a human one. There's laughter, there's tenderness, and there are a few moments where something deeper breaks through…the kind of moments that remind me why I love doing this work in the first place. If you've ever felt like you don't quite fit—even in rooms where you clearly do… If you've wrestled with whether your story is too much—or somehow not enough… Or if you're trying to make peace with your past without losing who you are in the process… I think this conversation might meet you right where you are. Come listen.

Most leaders think workplace problems are about strategy, performance, or communication. But what if the real issue is something deeper—something invisible shaping how people interpret everything that happens at work? In this episode of Typology, Anthony and I explore how the Enneagram reveals the hidden motivations driving behavior inside teams and leadership groups. When people begin to understand why they—and their colleagues—think, react, and communicate the way they do, everything starts to shift. We talk about what happens when organizations move beyond personality labels and start using the Enneagram as a practical tool for leadership, conflict, and culture. If you lead people, work on a team, or have ever wondered why certain workplace dynamics keep repeating themselves… this conversation might change the way you see your office forever.

In Part 2 of our conversation on using the Enneagram in therapy, we move from theory to lived experience in the room. Anthony and I discuss how type can be understood as an adaptive survival strategy shaped by early attachment and trauma—and how that framing reduces shame instead of reinforcing it. We talk about what it looks like when the Enneagram is actually working in session: increased self-observation, greater emotional regulation, and more compassion. As a therapist, your type doesn't clock out when the session starts, so we dig into the importance of self-awareness and countertransference, explore how the Enneagram can either heal or harm in couples work, depending on whether it increases curiosity or contempt. Whether you're a clinician or someone doing your own inner work, this episode invites you to hold the Enneagram lightly—and people reverently. When it's used well, it doesn't replace therapy. It deepens it. ============================================== Download the free Therapist Discussion & Reflection Guide Check out the Typology Institute Enneagram Assessment Follow Ian on social at @ianmorgancron and @typologypodcast  

What does it mean to use the Enneagram in therapy responsibly? In Part 1 of this two-part conversation on Typology, Anthony Skinner and I lay the groundwork for therapists, counselors, and coaches who want to responsibly integrate the Enneagram into clinical practice with wisdom and care.  Together, we unpack what the Enneagram is—and what it isn't—in the therapy room. It's not a diagnosis. It's not a substitute for evidence-based modalities. And it should never flatten complexity or bypass deeper trauma work. I also share practical wisdom from decades of work as a therapist, priest, and Enneagram teacher, offering guidance for using the Enneagram in a way that increases compassion rather than contempt, flexibility rather than rigidity, and insight rather than shame.  At its best, the Enneagram helps us see people not as problems to solve, but as stories shaped by fear, longing, and adaptation. Used wisely, it becomes a powerful reflective tool that deepens emotional intelligence, strengthens therapeutic relationships, and supports real transformation. When the Enneagram is used well, it doesn't replace therapy. It deepens it.

There are conversations that stretch you a little. And then there are conversations that gently but firmly rearrange the furniture in your mind. This week, I sat down with Keith Kurlander and Will Van Derveer—co-founders of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute—to talk about something that's generating a lot of curiosity and, let's be honest, some anxiety: psychedelic-assisted therapy. Before you brace yourself, this isn't a hype session. It's a thoughtful, grounded conversation about trauma, the nervous system, and what happens when traditional therapy isn't enough to reach the deepest layers of pain we carry. We explored how trauma shapes our personalities, how it imprints on the body, and why insight alone often doesn't create lasting change. As someone who cares deeply about the Enneagram and recovery, I found this especially compelling. So much of our personality structure is built around adaptation—strategies that once kept us safe but now quietly run the show. Keith and Will explain how psychedelic-assisted therapy, when done legally and in carefully structured clinical settings, may help people access and heal places that feel otherwise unreachable. We also talk about the risks, the ethics, and the importance of discernment. This isn't about chasing peak experiences. It's about healing what's unfinished. If you've ever felt stuck in patterns that insight alone couldn't untangle… if you've wondered whether deeper healing is possible… this conversation might open a door.           LEARN MORE ABOUT WILL AND KEITH WILL VAN DERVEER, MD, is a leader in the adoption of integrative psychiatry practices to treat mental health issues. He is cofounder of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute and Integrative Psychiatry Centers and cohost of The Higher Practice Podcast for Optimal Mental Health. He has published research on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Dr. Van Derveer has published research on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD [1] and written book chapters in the fields of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and other clinical applications of psychedelic compounds. His passion is finding effective relief from psychological suffering using a vast array of the most natural approaches possible. In addition to traditional medical training, He is a meditation instructor and has trained in shamanism, EMDR, somatic experiencing, internal family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, and hypnosis. KEITH KURLANDER, MA, LPC, is cofounder of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute and Integrative Psychiatry Centers and cohost of The Higher Practice Podcast for Optimal Mental Health. He graduated Naropa University in 2005 with a master's degree in Transpersonal Counseling Psychology, and he has practiced integrative psychotherapy and coaching with individuals, couples and groups for over 15 years. Keith's work as a coach focuses on celebrities, influencers, entrepreneurs, and CEOs who want to make huge changes in their lives, overcome long-standing patterns, and achieve greater levels of fulfillment. Keith specializes in helping individuals achieve optimal mental health and peak potential.   Social Links & Website (for promotional use) Website - Keith Kurlander, MA, LPC Instagram (Keith) | Instagram (Will)LinkedIn (Keith) | LinkedIn (Will) Psychedelic Therapy: A Revolutionary Approach to Restoring Your Mental Health and Reclaiming Your Life (Shambhala; March 31, 2026),   

In this episode of Typology, I sit down with therapist and author Joe Nucci for a thoughtful, wide-ranging conversation about the Enneagram, mental health, and the growing misuse of therapeutic language in our culture. Joe—an Enneagram Three—shares his own journey with the Enneagram, the hidden shame dynamics of Threes, and how public success can quietly pull us toward performance instead of integrity. Together, we explore why tools like the Enneagram work best as maps, not MRIs—helpful for self-awareness and empathy, but dangerous when they turn into rigid labels. We also dig into Joe's new book, Psycho Babble, discussing how clinical terms like narcissist, OCD, and trauma have become everyday adjectives—and what it costs us when labels replace discernment, curiosity, and real relationship. This is a grounded, honest conversation about growth, character, and what it actually means to become a healthier version of yourself—without turning self-awareness into self-avoidance.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT JOE NUCCI Joe Nucci is an expert in breaking down how people talk about mental health. He's a psychotherapist who corrects widely misused terms, adds valuable nuance and explains complex ideas in ways anyone can understand. He can take a mental health lens to any hot button issue. Anyone who listens to him will walk away knowing themselves and others a little better. Joe reached over 10 million people in his first 6 months of posting content. His book "Psychobabble" explores why mental health information is so confusing to navigate and how to more easily understand different perspectives about mental health. He also has an upcoming podcast, being produced by Luminary Podcasts, where he will take deeper dives into the different mental health topics that he explores on Instagram, Facebook and Tiktok @joenuccitherapy Pscyhobabble: Viral Mental Health Myths & the Truths to Set You Free

What happens when Enneagram Eight energy grows up, softens its edges, and learns to lead with both strength and soul? In this episode of Typology, Ian Morgan Cron sits down with restaurateur, entrepreneur, and conscious capitalism advocate Dan Simons, co-owner of Founding Farmers, for a wide-ranging, deeply human conversation about power, protection, and what it really means to build a culture of care. Dan is brand-new to the Enneagram—and quickly discovers he's an Eight with a strong Nine wing, a compelling combination that blends moral clarity with empathy, decisiveness with nuance, and fire with calm. Together, Ian and Dan explore how Eights aren't just challengers—they're often defenders: leaders shaped by early experiences of injustice who instinctively stand up for the vulnerable. Along the way, they talk candidly about: Why anger can be a tool rather than a liability when it's consciously harnessed How leadership failures are often listening failures (and the three most powerful words a leader can say) How putting emotional well-being on equal footing with profit actually increases performance, retention, and long-term value What a healthy workplace should feel like when you walk through the door (hint: think Labrador retriever, not shark tank) This is a masterclass in evolved leadership and a hopeful vision of capitalism done with conscience. If you're a leader, an Enneagram Eight, or someone longing for work cultures that don't crush the human spirit, this conversation will leave you both challenged and encouraged—in the best possible way. Listen in and pull up a chair. There's a seat for you at this table.     --------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Dan Simons Dan Simons is regarded as a leading voice in mission-driven business practices, known for championing people-centric culture and responsible industry standards while developing systems that deliver profitability. He and his partner, Michael Vucurevich, are Co-Owners of Founding Farmers Restaurant Group in partnership with the North Dakota Farmers Union. Their goal is to generate profits for American family farmers, earn farmers a larger share of the food dollar, and influence the sourcing decisions of suppliers and others in the hospitality industry. They operate eight sustainably run restaurants, one DC-based distillery, and a full service catering and event design company. He teaches courses at The George Washington University, hosts a podcast (Founding DC), and sits on the advisory boards of the DC chapter of Conscious Capitalism, OpenTable, and the Health Action Alliance Women's Health at Work Program. He blogs at www.DanSimonsSays.com and can be found across most social channels @DanSimonsSays. Visit https://www.dansimonssays.com/ to learn more.

What happens when the worst thing you've been afraid of actually happens—and you're still standing? In this episode of Typology, I sit down with songwriter Brad Warren—an Enneagram Six, a man in long-term recovery, a husband, a father, and someone who has walked straight through unimaginable grief and come out the other side with humility, humor, and hard-won wisdom. Brad is the kind of person who tells the truth without posturing, who can laugh at himself without diminishing himself, and who understands—deeply—that fear doesn't disappear just because you name it. But naming it does change the game. We talk about the Enneagram Six's instinct to scan the horizon for danger, to rehearse conversations that never happen, and to catastrophize not because they're weak—but because they care. A lot. Brad shares how losing a child forced him to face his worst fears head-on, and how recovery, faith, and accountability helped him learn the difference between imagined catastrophe and lived reality. There's a kind of quiet courage in the way he describes trusting God—not a God who's looking to smite him, but one who's patiently inviting him to rest. Along the way, we explore humor as both a survival strategy and a spiritual practice, the surprising connection between humility and laughter, and how Sixes learn to move from fear-driven vigilance to faith-filled presence. We also touch on marriage, loyalty, religious deconstruction with gratitude instead of bitterness, and the life-saving power of people who are willing to tell you the truth when your mind is lying to you. This episode is funny, tender, honest, and deeply human. It's about fear—but it's even more about trust. And what it looks like, day by day, to choose it anyway.   ------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Brad Warren Brad Warren is a Nashville-based songwriter and artist best known as one half of the hitmaking Warren Brothers. He has co-written major country hits recorded by Tim McGraw, Toby Keith , Keith Urban, Faith Hill , Martina McBride, Dierks Bentley, Jason Aldean and more. Brad is also the host of the Good Grief Good God podcast. He and his wife Michelle lost their oldest son Sage in 2020 and the podcast is in honor of him. Brad covers an array of other topics (recovery, God, mental and physical health, and The Music Business) as well as grief. Guests have ranged from Sheryl Crow and Amy Grant to Scott Hamilton and Charles Esten.

What happens when the need to appear competent becomes the very thing that disconnects us from others—and from ourselves? In this deeply honest and surprisingly funny conversation, Ian welcomes author, speaker, and Enneagram Three, Steve Cuss for a wide-ranging dialogue on anxiety, performance, false self, and the quiet freedom that comes with becoming more human-sized. Drawing from Steve's experience as a hospital chaplain, pastor, and leadership consultant, they explore why our most polished coping strategies often come from fear, how predictable patterns keep us stuck, and why anxiety is so contagious in families, churches, and organizations. Along the way, they unpack the Enneagram Three's drive to succeed, the exhaustion of self-presentation, the difference between ambition and authenticity, and why true maturity looks a lot like being relaxed—no masks required. Expect stories, laughs, hard-earned wisdom, and a refreshing reminder that you don't have to win the room to belong in it. If your nervous system needs a deep breath and your soul could use some permission to stand down from proving itself, this episode is for you.     About Steve Cuss Steve Cuss, M.Div. is a pastor, former chaplain, and founder of Capable Life, which helps people lower internal and relational anxiety in the workplace and homeplace. Steve is a Spiritual Care Professional in the Association of Clinical Pastoral Education, holding 1600 hours of supervised ministry in CPE and a Masters degree focusing on Family Systems Theory and Theology. Steve, his wife, Lisa, and their two sons and a daughter live in Erie, Colorado. Connect with Steve at: Website: https://capablelife.com and https://stevecusswords.com Soul Care Intensives: https://capablelife.com/pages/intensives Podcast: Being Human with Steve Cuss Instagram | X