The Sheepdog and the Shepherd: Benji Van Fleet on Calling, Conviction, and the Church That Belongs to God (Part 1) | PT 143

What if you didn’t get to choose where you served, but trusted the Spirit and the Church to send you? In Part 2 of this conversation, Pastor Benji Van Fleet joins Tara Beth Leach and Mark Quanstrom to unpack the Methodist system of itinerancy and what it teaches us about obedience, humility, and trust. From matchmaker bishops to Methodist “March Madness,” Benji shares a vision of ministry rooted in submission rather than self-promotion, and a faith that follows wherever God leads.🎙️ In This Episode:What the Methodist itinerant system teaches about calling and surrenderHow being sent shapes a pastor’s humility and courageThe dangers of “pastor as CEO” and the freedom of not owning your churchHow diversity flourishes through a Spirit-led appointment processWhy obedience to the Church’s discernment can deepen faith⏱️ Timestamps:00:00 – The theology behind being sent rather than hired03:00 – Contextualizing mission: unity without uniformity07:00 – The “matchmaker” role of bishops and discernment in appointments11:00 – Fresh eyes and prophetic courage in short tenures15:00 – Undermining the “pastor as CEO” model20:00 – Methodist March Madness and the beauty of discernment24:00 – Diversity and the Kingdom of God in appointment systems32:00 – A phone call on Holy Week that changed everything36:00 – Saying yes when it could’ve only been six months38:00 – Submission, humility, and the Spirit’s surprising workMinistry is not a career we climb; it’s a call we receive. Benji’s story reminds us that when we live as sent ones rather than stationed ones, we find the freedom to trust God’s wisdom over our own plans.

What happens when your theology of calling collides with your understanding of ownership in the church? In this episode, Pastor Benji Van Fleet joins Tara Beth Leach and Mark Quanstrom from Abilene, Texas, to talk about his journey from architecture student to Methodist pastor, how cancer and heartbreak became catalysts for his call, and why he describes himself not as a shepherd—but a sheepdog.🎙️ In This Episode:How a broken engagement and a tumor redirected Benji’s life toward ministryThe moment God spoke when everything else fell apartWhat it means to be a “sent” pastor in the Methodist itinerant systemWhy Benji refuses to call St. Paul “his” church—and what that means for pastoral health⏱️ Timestamps:00:00 – The world of Abilene and Texas-sized hospitality04:00 – The story of St. Paul UMC and its 100-year legacy07:00 – Benji’s faith upbringing and the “zebra” of denominations10:00 – Losing everything—and hearing God’s voice for the first time13:00 – “Exactly. Now we can start again.” A calling moment15:00 – Sharing the gospel in Russia and being called as God’s diplomat20:00 – Seminary, marriage, and the Methodist call system23:00 – Going where you’re sent: the theology of itinerancy26:00 – Why Benji says, “I’m not the shepherd—I’m the sheepdog.”29:00 – The cult of personality and pointing people to JesusPastors are not owners of the church; they’re guides pointing the flock toward the Good Shepherd. Benji’s story reminds us that calling often begins in surrender, and ministry flourishes when we lead with open hands.

What happens when personal pain becomes public platform? In this candid conversation, Tara Beth Leach and Mark Quanstrom reflect on Tara Beth’s widely shared Substack essay, When the Wounded Take the Mic. They explore the rise of “wounded influencers,” the temptation for pastors to preach from fresh wounds rather than healed scars, and how leaders can discern the difference between prophetic truth-telling and reactive venting.Read the article here: https://tarabethleach.substack.com/p/when-the-wounded-take-the-mic 🎙️ In This Episode:Why woundedness has become a new form of credibility in the churchThe danger of confusing deconstruction with discipleshipLessons Tara Beth learned from preaching with fresh woundsHow pastors can lead from scars instead of unhealed painWhy the church—flawed and fallen—remains God’s chosen place of healing⏱️ Timestamps:02:00 – The rise of wounded influencers and the pull of platform06:00 – When honesty and rawness aren’t the same as holiness and wisdom10:00 – Tara Beth’s personal reflections on preaching while wounded15:00 – How the church itself became a place of healing20:00 – The danger of binary thinking: victim vs. villain24:00 – Family systems theory and the culture of shared anger27:00 – Mark’s reflection: preaching while angry and what changed28:00 – Pastors will always lead while wounded—the question is howEvery pastor carries wounds, but not every wound should be amplified. Ministry rooted in healing scars—rather than raw pain—creates space for true discipleship, renewal, and hope in the body of Christ.

What happens when ministry wounds you so deeply that you wonder if you’ll ever serve again? In this conversation, Sarah Hinlicky Wilson joins Tara Beth Leach and Mark Quanstrom to share how a decade away from the pastorate became a season of theological reflection, healing, and rediscovery of God’s mercy. From the theology of the cross to the false lure of utopian church ideals, Sarah offers hard-won wisdom for pastors whose hearts are broken.🎙️ In This Episode:Why stepping away from the pastorate was necessary for recoveryThe dangers of chasing validation in ministryHow churches confuse the theology of the cross with gloryFacing sin in the church without losing hopeReturning to your first love as a pastor⏱️ Timestamps:01:05 Sarah’s season away from ministry05:00 Wrestling with anger and recovery09:30 Lessons from failure and immaturity13:50 Roots vs. fruits: pursuing word and sacrament16:20 Cross and resurrection held together20:00 The church’s sins and the call to confession28:00 American utopianism in church life30:30 A word for pastors with broken heartsHealing after ministry wounds is slow, but it is holy work. By returning to our first love in Christ and trusting God’s mercy, pastors can find hope beyond anger and rediscover the joy of serving God’s people.

What happens when God calls you back into ministry after deep wounds? In Part 2 of her story, Sarah Hinlicky Wilson reflects on moving from disillusionment in New Jersey to surprising renewal in Tokyo. With honesty and humor, she describes serving a fragile, English-speaking congregation during COVID, watching people show up because Jesus himself drew them, and discovering her pastoral heart restored.🎙️ In This Episode:Recovering from disillusionment and learning to be a parishioner againMoving to Tokyo and reluctantly stepping back into pastoral ministryThe loneliness of Japan—and the surprising ways God calls people to churchHow catechesis shaped new believers and renewed her pastoral heart⏱️ Timestamps:00:00 – Leaving Trenton and healing in Strasbourg03:00 – Becoming a supportive parishioner before pastoring again06:00 – Moving to Tokyo and reluctantly accepting a call09:00 – Serving in a city of 40 million isolated people11:00 – COVID, reopening, and an unexpected growth in the church13:00 – “Jesus told me to come to church”: new believers in Tokyo17:00 – Using the Small Catechism as an evangelism tool20:00 – Formation vs. just getting people in the door24:00 – A renewed pastoral heart and the gift of a faithful congregationGod doesn’t waste seasons of pain. In Tokyo, Sarah discovered that even when she felt unqualified, God was faithful to bring people, heal her wounds, and give her back a pastoral heart.

What happens when ministry doesn’t go as planned? In this riveting conversation, Sarah Hinlicky Wilson shares her story of growing up in a third-generation pastoral family, wrestling with her call as a woman, and stepping into a church full of both history and heartbreak. From dollar-priced communion to deep theological reflection, Sarah’s story reminds us that God often works through unexpected twists.Learn more about Sarah's writing at sarahhinlickywilson.com🎙️ In This Episode:Growing up in a healthy Lutheran family and finding her call to ministryWrestling with being a woman pastor—and discovering unlikely mentorsHer first call in Trenton, NJ, and the painful reality of a declining churchNostalgia, culture, and the surprising places God redirects us⏱️ Timestamps:04:00 – Third-generation pastor with a happy church upbringing07:00 – Wrestling with women in ministry through theology and mentors10:00 – From PhD work to ordination13:00 – First call: a struggling Slovak Lutheran church in Trenton17:00 – Communion for a dollar? The odd traditions she inherited20:00 – Facing racism, loss, and resistance in a shrinking congregation24:00 – The deeper challenge of nostalgia and bound wills30:00 – God’s unexpected redirection: Strasbourg, FranceMinistry is rarely a straight line. Sarah’s story reveals how even in broken churches and cultural tensions, God is still at work redirecting us, reshaping us, and surprising us with new callings.

What happens when your call to ministry feels buried, but never really dies? In this special episode, the tables turn as Tara Beth Leach and Mark Quanstrom interview their producer, and now executive pastor, Chaz Robbins. From a childhood shaped by faithful mentors to an RV road trip with his family, Chaz opens up about his winding path through ministry, media, church planting, and finally, back into pastoral leadership.🎙️ In This Episode:How a youth pastor at Taco Bell modeled the love of JesusThe moment Chaz’s grandfather called him into ministry: “You were made for this”Lessons from planting a church—and letting it go in 2020What a year on the road in an RV taught about community and resilienceWhy stepping into executive ministry feels like coming home⏱️ Timestamps:05:00 – Growing up in Missouri, football dreams, and broken bones08:30 – A youth pastor’s presence that changed everything10:00 – Called into ministry at a Nebraska retreat12:00 – From Ozark Christian College to Northern Seminary16:00 – Learning ministry through Next Steps & Rooted at Parkview18:00 – Church planting residency and the dream of a coffeehouse church20:00 – Planting in Colorado… and closing during COVID17:00 – Selling everything and living a year in an RV with two toddlers23:00 – The bittersweet ache of stepping away from pastoral ministry26:00 – The long road of healing and rediscovering call31:00 – A new chapter: becoming Executive Pastor at Osage Hills33:00 – Why Jesus’ promise “I will build my church” matters most🔗 Resources & Mentions:The Great Morning Revolution by Tara Beth Leach → Amazon linkThreaded Bible Study by Tara Beth Leach → Amazon linkEven when ministry dreams fall apart, God wastes nothing. The same call that sparked at a Taco Bell table and a Nebraska retreat still echoes today: you were made for this—to love people with the presence of Jesus.

How do pastors pour themselves out for others without losing their own soul? In Part 2 of this conversation, Ben Cachiaras reflects on the dangers of achievement addiction, the symptoms of ministry at an unsustainable pace, and the practices that helped him and his staff find a healthier rhythm of life and leadership. From numbing emotions to creating a staff-wide REST policy, Ben shares the hard-won lessons of thriving in ministry without losing holy ambition.🎙️ In This Episode:The signs of burnout pastors often minimize or ignoreWhy achievement can become an addiction in ministryCreating a culture of health through the REST policyHolding urgency for the gospel and soul care in tension⏱️ Timestamps:02:00 – Ben’s story of overcommitment and achievement addiction07:00 – Symptoms of burnout: numbness, resentment, escapes13:00 – When staff intervention became a turning point19:00 – False dichotomies of soul care vs. gospel urgency25:00 – How Mountain Church institutionalized rest31:00 – REST policy: relax, exercise, social, time with God35:00 – Final reflections and resourcesThriving in ministry doesn’t mean abandoning holy ambition—it means learning the rhythm of pouring yourself out and allowing God to fill you back up.

What does it look like to serve a 200-year-old church that’s still bursting with life? Pastor Ben Cachiaras of Mountain Christian Church has spent nearly three decades leading with holy ambition, holding together the call to discipleship and evangelism. His story is one of clarity, perseverance, and joy in ministry that truly “fits like a glove."🎙️ In This Episode:Ben’s early call to ministry through his grandfather’s powerful invitationWhy discipleship and evangelism aren’t opposites and how they thrive togetherThe challenge of staying faithful for the long haul in one placeDiscernment in ministry: when to persevere and when it might be time to go⏱️ Timestamps:07:00 – A clear and undeniable call to ministry13:00 – The role of the church in affirming pastoral callings20:00 – Discovering his heart for evangelism and discipleship together28:00 – What sustains 28 years at Mountain Christian Church34:00 – Perseverance, “remaining under,” and knowing when to stay or goPastoral ministry may not always be easy, but when it fits your calling, it can become the most joy-filled way to spend your life.

How do pastors actually “do it all”? In this lively, behind-the-scenes conversation, Mark Quanstrom and Tara Beth Leach pull back the curtain on their rhythms of ministry, family life, writing, and rest. From the myth of busyness to the art of batch working, they share practical ways to sustain pastoral life without burning out—and why mornings might be the most important part of the day.CLICK HERE to Pre-Purchase The Great Morning by Tara Beth LeachCLICK HERE to Purchase Threads by Tara Beth Leach🎙️ In This Episode:The myth of “doing it all” and how pastors can set realistic expectationsHow batch working creates space for ministry, writing, and familyThe heart behind The Great Morning Revolution and starting the day with the LordWhy taking extended time away is essential for long-term ministry health⏱️ Timestamps:02:00 – The myth of “doing it all” in pastoral ministry05:00 – Batch working and protecting focused time08:00 – Inside Tara Beth’s Threaded Bible study09:00 – The story and practices behind The Great Morning Revolution15:00 – Mark’s morning prayer rhythm and sacred spaces18:00 – Ministry health and the necessity of time away24:00 – Building churches that don’t revolve around the pastor27:00 – Final encouragement: mornings with God, time away, and a nourished mindA sustainable ministry life isn’t about hustling harder; it’s about stewarding your mornings, protecting your time, and trusting that the church is Christ’s to hold, not yours.